Water Beaver Overhaul

[still frigate]

dirt: get it from big drill and trading. Wasn't there a 3rd method, or am I mental?

[radiant arch]

was there a tiny amount with tunnel dynamites?

[shell fiber]

just added the dependency

updated on steam

uploading on mod.io now

[still frigate]

yay yay yay!!!

[shell fiber]

If you can test is and nothing explodes, I'll make it public 👍

[still frigate]

Will steam update without it being public? updating

zipline station finished without error!

30° canon verified.

Water is wet blue.

Ropemaker is no longer out of phase with the world.

Was there anything else or resume playing to see if I find any more?

[radiant arch]

beaver ui to see if the need hover shows? (shoes/ pillows?)

hmm.. swimming speed, water-per-voxel and immutable abyss outflow would be too.

no idea if aquifer was affected too?

was there something else? the max build height? (not sure lapan set that)

[radiant arch]

can you hover the "tool" need and see something?

[radiant arch]

that used to crash before 🙂

[still frigate]

This is looking quite promising.

Did the named special beavers go away? I haven't noticed one all game and I usually see several.

[radiant arch]

that was a script by bobingabout. not sure he updated yet

oh, it's updated, but not used yet maybe

housing optimizer isn't updated yet.. might be troublesome?

[still frigate]

I don't have his script active in this load. I was seeing them in my LeafCoats game.

I'll activate it and see what happens

Adding these 3

[radiant arch]

oh, there is an update for the housing? cool! (mod.io not had the tag yet for it)

[still frigate]

It wasn't too long ago... a few days maybe? After the last "minor" game update when everything broke.

This is NOT a WhitePaws friendly map, but it sure is fun! I found one alternate start location where I was able to keep my colony alive.

[radiant arch]

does really look like fun

[still frigate]

Bombs go off over the course of the first 20 or so cycle, totally changing water flows and making beaver life hard.

It was easiest as LeafCoats. I also did it as EmberPelts.

I was determined to prove WhitePaws could thrive here with enough stubbornness.

cannot plant bananas or giant sequoias. I know the bananas need that special greenhouse but I don't remember anything for the giant sequoias.

[shell fiber]

LoL I fixed it in editor and then forgot to confirm it was in place 🤣
Glad to know it worked 😅

That's all I had in mind, at least the vital stuff

[shell fiber]

Solar Aquifer is a normal water source, it runs dry and it get polluted normally

Not sure that's a great idea actually

[shell fiber]

I actually did check this one 😉

[shell fiber]

Didn't have time to poke at it yet

[shell fiber]

Ah right. Need this one pretty bad

Although with Ziplines...

[still frigate]

It is updated.

[radiant arch]

height limit might block them. 3x3 ground requirement and needs tree nursery

if lapan not added it, can force height limit compat with:

// Blueprints/Configurations/MapSize.blueprint.json
{
  "MapSizeSpec": {
    "MaxHeightAboveTerrain": 24
  }
}

[still frigate]

I know this is an expanded height map but not sure how tall. Let me try from a lowland area...

I was height.

I am too high on the plateau for them.

[radiant arch]

might be those special plants not yet are fully updated yet (.. want to play too, but can't before weekend.. )

[still frigate]

I have tested most things I have unlocked, I think. Still not at Normal School level.

[still frigate]

Got it when I wasn't even paying attention to population. 59/59 achievements.

[cloud flax]

Maybe time for a very poor generator that takes in coal and water to generate extremely low power mimicking the geothermal powerplant (early game water is PITA to have in excess so it will still be some effort to keep it running and in mid late games, it shouldn't have enough power to power anything substantial forcing people to go for the methane engines?)

Maybe it give the exercise plaza boost which has been useless since God knows what time XD.

"You gotta exercise to stay healthy!! This is not at all a schemes to keep you working overtime"

[shell fiber]

Was it that weak ?

Also since there is apparently no (major) bug yet, I'll make the 1.0 version public 👍

[cloud flax]

Oh wait I was thinking about the dancing hall. Or there was atleast 1 fun boost that was not utilised I think. Forgot exercise hall actually exists properly. But it won't be bad to actually use the exercise plaza to pull the water up and generate power....

Something like this I guess... Entails designing a new building though... And am not sure if you can generate power from a recreational building based on visitors....

[wary panther]

Careful, you're about to invent the playpump (merry-go-round that pumps water), so that even the children can be put the hard labor

[still frigate]

When attempting to place the small aquifer pump it says the entrance is blocked. Is this user error or mod error?

[thorny pelican]

I was also thinking of something like this
but more like an indoor rower, placed in a 1 wide water channel to power water wheels

@shell fiber another possibility would be a 1x2 stationary bike

Of course, both of these would benefit from a proper animation 🫣

[woeful sun]

btw, another non-fatal warning I spotted: FactionSpecTemplateValidator failed for Faction Whitepaws: TemplateCollectionSpec with id 1x1x2Storage.Whitepaws not found

although that might be because I didn't have the mod enabled, let me double check

[woeful sun]

yea, it's fine once the right mods are enabled,

[stone spruce]

Did you fix the crash that's been happening when you mouse over the log gnawing station?

[shell fiber]

It just gives a warning when it's missing the entire collection ? Interesting 🤔

[woeful sun]

Yea. I'm guessing there's no point in trying to fix it, because it's only a warning and only shows if the required storage mod is missing.

[still frigate]

@shell fiber I wasn't building one of these when it crashed, so I'm not sure what triggered it.

[shell fiber]

Ah crap.
I renamed the item to something that makes sense, probably forgot one of them

That's a 5 min fix

[still frigate]

Cool! Glad it is an easy one.

Did you also see this one: #1070709592176197642 message

On a positive note, I am building my first ENS and so far there have been very few problems. I believe I have built or am building most things I've unlocked except the above.

[still frigate]

@shell fiber It is the completion of the ENS that triggers the crash.

[still frigate]

Gotta sleep for a bit. I check for an update when I wake in 2-6 hours, depending on pain. /laughs

[shell fiber]

hmm... this one is weirder than it seems

not sure where the issue come from

[shell fiber]

damn i got a crash when placing the aquifer pump

that's really not the time to figure out it's not working

or that some code changed of whatnot

[shell fiber]

what in the hell is going on there

the highlited one crashes the game when swapped upon completion, the other one wher the dirt blocks were placed after is completely fine 😓

[shell fiber]

WHAT
IN
THE
ABSOLUTE
FUCK

oh, NOW it works !

what did i change you ask ?

🎊I DON'T KNOW 🎊

probably nothing !

I...stand defeated i guess.

it works

i just saved and loaded the game a bunch of time, and now it works !

that makes zero sense, but until this absolute nonsense happens again, i guess it's fine

whelp, sorry guys, i'm really running out of time so i'll only be pushing the update to steam

this was the cause of the ENS crash for those of you stuck with mod.io

i'll try to upload a fix there tomorrow

(the product was still called clockworkwaterfarmblueprint or something)

see ya !

[still frigate]

I appreciate your efforts but I'm afraid it doesn't work. The error is present in all of your screen shots.

I never had problems with this one crashing. It doesn't connect to the road and thus wont do anything.

[still frigate]

The ENS finished building and seems to be working wonderfully. Thank you so much.

[shell fiber]

Ah yes I completely forgot about the road connection, I was focused on the crash

But the water source should work even if not connected

[still frigate]

There is no pumping animations and it doesn't show as having any water.

Does it work in mixed water or does it need pure water only?

Doesn't work in pure water either.

[shell fiber]

Hm? It makes water not pump it

[still frigate]

Where would I see it having water?

[shell fiber]

Like the build one

You place it somewhere and the pipe will generate water

Up to 0.6 though

[still frigate]

Ah. I am mis-using it. Let me try again

Okay. It is working. Should the water be contaminated?

Has 10% contamination in the water it makes.

@shell fiber New problem: beaver doesn't go to the right clinic.

I have a severly injured beaver. It went to the clinic making frost balms instead of the one making surgery kits.

In the U7 version the beavers went to the correct clinic.

@shell fiber New crash. Attempting to unlock and place the firefly station.

[shell fiber]

The clinic now heal everything at a low speed, the consumables are for extra fast recovery 👍

Not sure that is a great idea though

[radiant arch]

does it still block consumption after the first time of genetic upgrades?

[shell fiber]

Ah, the fireflies, of course, I forgot they have particles attachment too

[shell fiber]

Not sure I understand

But the genetic improvement doesn't decay

The human clinic cures everything

[radiant arch]

there was the issue with 0.7 that once genetic improvement was applied the clinic could no longer provide anything as the need was not wastable and blocked

much like beavers die of thirst if there's only sake and the need is too full

[shell fiber]

I see, I'll double check but I can make it wasteable if that's not already the case

[still frigate]

Will this even work on a seriously injured beaver? In the past they -had- to have treatment.

In this instance I definitely prefer the old mechanic. As it is, I would never have wasted the effort and resources to make them had I known.

[shell fiber]

Well the abyss medical facility requires 3 nursing license anyway so I figured the effort would not be wasted, but I'm also thinking that having them naturally treat major diseases is not a great idea.

Maybe just the basic ones make more sense as it allows to get rid of med beds 🤔

[shell fiber]

i hadn't checked that until now, but you were right, they would get kicked out of the hooman medical facility once the treatment is complete, and not allowed to use it for other injuries

that's fixed now 🙂

this is fixed too

and so is that

[cloud flax]

Can you fix the hitbox for library and gravity battery while you are at it? Orarr they done already?

The both extend quite a bit down

[shell fiber]

i didn't know something was wrong with them 😯

i'll look into it

same for the grav batteries

i just noticed that it looks a lot more sarcastic with the injury warning just after the text 😂

[shell fiber]

fixed the library and the light of the heavy grav battery

[still frigate]

Sorry for the confusion. I was referencing the regular ones. That take 1 nursing license.

[shell fiber]

They only heal basic injuries now 👍

[shell fiber]

all good for now ?

[cloud flax]

There was that weird block occupied above tile that is in front of the door in the metal factory. Not sure what that was for

[cloud flax]

Hospital no longer heal severe burns, injury and diseases??
Given their chance I would expect most colony to be injured before they reach abyss hospital...

[shell fiber]

The manufactured items still do

[shell fiber]

For the smoke ?

[cloud flax]

Oh that was for smoke!.
Just cover the factory with dirt blocks and you will figure out which block am telling. JC as well faced issue in his series. It wasn't fixed for U7 when I last played

[shell fiber]

I should probably edit a bit the model to make it more obvious

just fixed the outfits

i kind of would like to make custom ones, but... complicated 😓

and my job is calling me

[cloud flax]

All the best man for the day!

[cloud flax]

Also the robot state after they exit the ziplines was not set properly i believe

[shell fiber]

What do you mean ?

[cloud flax]

This

[shell fiber]

oh, right.
does that still happen ? ngl i have no idea how this system works 🤔

[naive tide]

When will the Whitepaws see the light of day for v1.0?

[shell fiber]

it's already online 😊

you can get it on steam or mod.io

turns out custom hats migth be easier that i though

with the caveat of finding / making the model 😑

by the way, just in case some people have spare time and spare brain cells (and willing to help)
i need to come up with a tasklist for the tutorial, but for that i would need to actually to play the mod, which i don't have time for recently

this is what i extracted from the current tutorial

basically each "step" is triggered as soon as its requirement tutorials are cleared

except the first one which seems triggered by "newtutorial" which is not a step

and the tutorial can branch, like once you have finished "water and food", both "storage" and "science" trigger

of course i intend to skip on the very early game stuff, but i want to cover the main ideas of this mod

like

• step 1 : hello, this is the whitepaws
• step 2 : build the basics : flags for berries, wood, place a waterpump and a farm
• step 3 : see, you have only one farmer per farm, and the farm is a house, build one more of each
• step 4 : also, there's a tapper's flag now, and the scavenger flag no longer costs science
• step 5 : build a bath soon or you're dead

etc.etc.

[woeful sun]

Would you do up to the point where it's safe to destroy the broken cart?

[naive tide]

I only ever saw the steam entry for U7 so I wasn't sure if it works in v1.0 or not

[shell fiber]

Ah, on mod.io I use one single mod page, but because steam doesn't let us choose install versions easily, I split the mod according to the game's version

So if you want to use steam, make sure you're using the 1.0 version of the mod

[shell fiber]

Actually I would go much further, rebuilding the kart is really early.
I think at the earliest I would want to stop would be after blueprint duplication 🤔

[cloud flax]

Is it allowed to branch or have multiple quests sorta thing active simultaneously?

Might wanna add some extra help with factory building i guess

[shell fiber]

I don't think the factory is that problematic but yes, we can branch like side quests 😉

[cloud flax]

I don't know how to code in the tutorials, but can create a excel sheet with the trigger point, the quest and what subsequent quests it can lead to

Imma download the new version someday and see if my previous colony would still work in it or not. Been super stuffed with work and performances ☠️

[naive tide]

I only use the Steam Workshop so I haven't seen the v1.0 version

only U6 and U7

[lucid flame]

Whooo Hooo!! Downloaded from Steam and it came right up. I'm so excited about this and want to thank you ALL for your time and energy you have put into this mod. This is glorious! Well done 🙂

[storm gulch]

So... How close would you say the Waterbeavers 1.0 release is to being "complete"?

[sullen cape]

Oh hi 👋

[shell fiber]

It would likely work at some extend, but I often take the version change as an opportunity to rationalize some stuff, so you will likely have some things disappearing

[shell fiber]

Hi !
It's functional and mostly bug free as far as I know. Right now I'm trying to get some custom hats, rechecking the entire text entry file (as well as making the French translation) and working on the tutorial

Since you already know the mod quite well you could go without that

Oh, and right now most injuries are disabled because they changed the accident system to something that doesn't really fit

But I'll get to it soon

Arguably that's more important than the tutorial actually 🤔

[storm gulch]

Awesome! The masses have indicated they are yearning for another playthrough (on a less ridiculous map) so this is great news. I appreciate it!

[cloud flax]

Yayyyy! There's gonna be more waterbeavers to watch :D

[storm gulch]

My love for this faction will probably never go away, even if it does frustrate me to no end sometimes 🤣

[shell fiber]

what i would like to see you doing someday, is select a map that has really good damming opportunity, like a whole valley that you could block off with one large wall of watertight buildings 😊

to have an absolutely gigantic reservoir

of course that leaves the issue of badtides though...

[radiant arch]

could make a rainbow with cannons?

[ivory flicker]

Love hate relationship

[naive tide]

use that to your advantage with sluices/mechanical fluid pumps set for badwater with other mods and it'll be alright

[shell fiber]

@radiant arch i just had an idea : if that's not too complicated, is there something you can do to let the game have more probability levels for "WorkshopRandomNeedApplierSpec" ?
in the configuration folder you can specify the probability value for "low" "med" and "high" but not add new categories, and the prefab validator would just revert them to low when it doens't understand the value 🤔

right now i'm rewriting "high prob" as 0.8% /h, "Med" as 0.12% /h and "Low" as 0.02% /h
overall that should be a little bit more conservative than the old values, but i'm still worried that will make a mess 😑

[high light]

I've started my first play and everything makes sense up until this point in honesty (although finding everything building that you need is a challenge). I'm about to start on blueprints, but I honestly don't know what needs to be done. fun experiment!

[radiant arch]

that's 1.0 only? hmm.. can try and have a look at it next week maybe.. really short for time rn sadly
will need to see if it's possible.. i put it on my list for now

[shell fiber]

If it's complicated, no need to waste time on this I can work around the restrictions I have 👍

[radiant arch]

there appears to be a ProbabilityGroupsSpec that is a list of ProbabilityGroupSpecs -> technically you might be able to add to them?

than again each group only can have Low, Medium and High and there's nothing i could do about that without rewriting too much of the logic involved, which is fairly spread in many scripts..

[radiant arch]

what i could do is very similar to favourable needs.. i could add a new WorkshopGroupedRandomNeedApplierSpec that adds the probability group id to the spec.
so you could define new probability groups and for each a low/ medium / high. can't work around those three at all and UI would not show which group the workshop has though.
would that help?

[shell fiber]

ah, i see, so basically add a new type of random need applier that would still use low / med /high but for which it refers to an other set of probability values ? 🤔

but then the UI wouldn't be able to distinguish i suppose

hmm... let's see how well it works right now, and we'll figure it out later

hmm...only 380 more entries to check and translate... 😓

[shell fiber]

i was very sloppy with the descrption of the update, but i restored the injuries burns diseases etc

tell me if something seems out of control

[still frigate]

I'm finally feeling well enough to return to playing. I'll let you know how things are working out with all the changes.

[still frigate]

I just returned to the game but already 2 existing and a 3rd newly injured beavers behaved as I expected. I'll continue to keep watch on it for a bit.

[still frigate]

@shell fiber Is a healthy beaver who -works- at a clinic supposed to also show as a visitor to said clinic?

(Only 2 of these are injured.)

This sometimes happens if clicking twice on the same thing. In this case it was a contamination jail.

[shell fiber]

Yes the enterable display didn't differentiate who's in for what

[shell fiber]

By clicking twice on the same thing ? That's odd 🤔

Does that work on flags or the teeth grinder ?

[still frigate]

Agreed. And it is inconsistent.

Fine on the teeth grinder. What do you mean by "flags" in this case?

EDIT: I just tried to reproduce this but it did not happen. However, this error has happened about a dozen or so times since I started plaything 1.0 WaterPaws several days ago. It is possible that a different mod is causing it.

It did not happen in any of my EmberPelt or LeafCoat games, for what that is worth.

**Noted Injury Behaviors: **

• A beaver with a minor injury will go to the nearest clinic and stay there, without getting medicine, thus a slow heal.
• A beaver with -any- burn goes to the burn clinic and gets medicine and is fast healed.
• A beaver with -any- disease goes to the antibiotics clinic and gets medicine and is fast healed.

I have not yet observed a more serious injury than minor so far. Will update when that occurs.

[shell fiber]

Lumberjack flag etc

[still frigate]

Not with them either (just tried again).

I have had it happen on the bottom buttons, but not in a while. When it does happen that row of buttons duplicates, slightly offset, with "glitches" and then the crash happens.

[still frigate]

update: all beavers with minor injuries are filling up the closest clinic. In this case a burn one. I expect with enough minor injuries they will move to the next closest, which is antibiotics. It is the 3rd one that is surgery kits in my colony.

.
LMAO 🤣

[still frigate]

update 2: I was correct. They spilled over to the antibiotics clinic.

(I have not yet had enough injured beavers to see if they go to the 3rd clinic and get quick-healed.)

[still frigate]

comment: I like the redone treading system. It was weird that most "needed" trade items now want library books, but that is okay.

No more vast amounts of awful stew for trade. /laughs

Steel sawblades are the exception I have found, since it is almost certain one will need them before unlocking the high-temperature foundry. Gotta have those giant half-logs for stuff.

[cloud flax]

You can get giant half logs from the log gnawing station early game

Though not sure what it can be used for...

[still frigate]

I totally missed that!!!

[still frigate]

The abyssal mine elevator to the abyss needs them.

[cloud flax]

I always thought one would have made the the advanced sawmill by then ☠️

[still frigate]

Well, I have... but didn't have the blades

[cloud flax]

But it's a really good building to have asap for those factories

Wait does that mean we can technically build the abyss without needing ENS?

[still frigate]

I think so. My ENS is focused on the BA degree.

[still frigate]

None of these need the ENS.

If I had paid attention to the gnawing station, I would have my abyss by now. I simply would have made like 20 of them dedicated to half logs. 😛

At this stage all my gnawing stations are dedicated to sawdust production for paper and mushrooms.

I did end up taking the time needed to make enough books to make a second library so I could make enough books for trade. 😛

I don't have mechanical drills yet, so I have a number of medium mines (in addition to the original 3 for coal, salt, and saltpeter which aren't show.)

I definitely need more coal. 😛

[cloud flax]

I think salt peter is still good in the small mines

[still frigate]

@shell fiber
update 3: Confirmed that minor injury beavers do overflow to the 3rd clinic; however, they still do not use the surgery kits it has in stock. 😿

I believe this is an oversight.

Also, these numbers seem pretty normal as compared to U7 version.

update 4: Unexpected! Because I have too many minor injuries, the beaver with the mid disease went to the injury clinic and is not getting medicine for being sick. This can spiral out of control very quickly.

For testing purposes one can artifically inflate their injured beavers by setting a lot of them to remove the game's thorns.

I have surpassed maximum beds for minor injuries. I expect a cascade failure to happen.

Working towards injury overload here.

This is one of the meanest sections of @crisp parcel's challenge map. 😛

unrelated:

I forgot the abyss needs power. I gotta figure out how to get power down here. /laughs

[cloud flax]

Damnnn that map looks sick!!!

Whats the name of the map??

[still frigate]

It is great! I mean @crisp parcel does epic maps, but this one is a step beyond.

[still frigate]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3633105277

@shell fiber a 5x5 hole above the abyss does not allow for placement of the abyssal nuclear reactor. I'll expand it to a 7x7 and test again.

(not that I have the science needed yet.)

This will play hell on my dynamite supplies. I may need to up production.

[still frigate]

@shell fiber

UPDATE: a 7x7 is big enough. I just need 34k more science! (May be a bit IRL to get that built up.)

[still frigate]

@shell fiber did you intend for the tea lodge and the cooking tent have equal performance in making the cereal bars? Both are 22/hour with the same ingredients needed.

[still frigate]

The science numbers always blow my mind.

ENS:     40 science/1 hour```

[cloud flax]

That's why I felt that the workerless buildings should use atleast some science as inputs like clockwork farms, grand dams, big bad water pump etc

Science being used as workforce for repair and maintenance of these buildings

And conveniently a science dump end game

[still frigate]

Does anyone know what all buildings can cause contaminated beavers?

Hrm... I forgot to turn off my small badwater pumps when I repalced them with the good ones. Not sure two of those can account for 5 contaminated beavers though.

Oh!

Never mind. ENS can cause contamination. I'm up to 3 of those.

Worth it. I just got my first masters in metallurgy!

Oh no! The High Temperature Foundry is broken. I should have saved first.

Well, I think that's me for the night. I'll eagerly await the next patch!

[woeful sun]

Timbertrees knows, search for contamination and click it, 4 buildings cause it, 3 buildings heal it

[still frigate]

I hadn't noticed the library did it too.

[still frigate]

Okay, this crash was me working in ||dev mode|| since I can't legit make glass yet due to the previous crash I reported. I created a gargantuan liquid storage. Seemed fine. I assigned it to wine and CRASH.

I repeated the experiment with water and CRASH.

Force testing the other two gargantuan storage facilities... plz stand by...

The other two are fine. Just the liquid one.

Visuals on glass are still funky. (They were in the last U7 build I played.). For me, this graphical glitch is ultra-LOW priority to be fixed. But I wouldn't meet my own standards if I didn't at least report it.

[livid zephyr]

everytime i even hover over the contamination jail to build 1 it crashes

[still frigate]

@shell fiber This is very similar to what I reported here: #1070709592176197642 message

[livid zephyr]

been happy to ignore and avoid the issue til now, have first bad tide 1 day away. might be important to have some now haha

[still frigate]

I was able to build some, but sometimes mousing over one will crash.

[lucid flame]

Yes! Me too, I have 10 contaminated beavers and can't help them. Also crashes if you click more than once on the medical beds. You have to click once, then duplicate the bed instead of going through the menu.

[shell fiber]

I'll look into it

[shell fiber]

That's odd, it should 🤔

[shell fiber]

At first they had different performance, but I figured most people wouldn't notice so I I made it the same

[shell fiber]

Checkpoint (I'll continue reading tomorrow)

[still frigate]

I like to -think- I am more observant than most people. I guess I just miss different things than most. 😛

[still frigate]

If 8 badwater pumps aren't enough I am prepared to make 4 more!

[still frigate]

What does it take to heal a maimed beaver?

[still frigate]

What I don't yet have:

[woeful sun]

heh, you beat me to it 🙂

[still frigate]

Timbertrees can answer most of my dumb questions like that, when I remember to look.

[woeful sun]

I need to double check if it needs updating, I don't think I've updated it since the first 1.0 release

or maybe once, I haven't checked the latest update

6.0.2 vs 6.0.5

[still frigate]

Considering the flavor text I am surprised this doesn't include maiming. Also timbertrees doesn't show severe disease which is in game.

[woeful sun]

Maiming implies survival, Fireflies don't allow that 🙂

[still frigate]

Okay, I can buy that.

Grandpa must have worked in the lumber mills before.

[woeful sun]

"Mobile Infantry made me the man I am today!"

[still frigate]

I like Verhoeven's stuff.

So much stuff needs glass that I am dedicating one of my first three high temp forges to glassmaking. Once it is fixed by Lapan.

@shell fiber I would consider this an error that it allows building 1 off the badwater source.

[lucid flame]

Asking for help. There used to be a billboard with instructions on how to carve out the ground for the medium mine, but I don't see it. Is that still available somewhere?

[still frigate]

@lucid flame You doing it with stairs or the ladder?

I use the ladder, so here is my pattern:
= means fence
4 means the 4 strength explosive
You also now need a two width gap between fences if putting multiples close together due to the underground mine's hitbox.

=====
=444=
=444=
=4444=
  444=
======```

Stairs is more complicated:

=====
=444=
=444=
=4443=
 1233=
======```

@lucid flame I hope this helps

A "mine field" 😛

[woeful sun]

wooahh, how do you get a pile of piles? I've seen JC put one at the top, but never an entire stack before. Do you put them on overhangs?

[still frigate]

Nope. On the 1-high platforms.

Cant really do it with the stair method though.

[woeful sun]

but they're 2x2, so you can't put platforms over them can you?

[still frigate]

yep! Here is one with platforms on it, being prepped for a 3x3 on it.

[woeful sun]

or do you mean the squewer platform? but I thought that they could only got at the top of cliffs

oh, wow, is that new?

[still frigate]

the 2x2 and 3x3 can take platforms on them in this mod.

It was in U7

Can't answer before then.

[woeful sun]

ahh, JC is finishing up his U6 playthrough, so I haven't seen U7 yet,

[still frigate]

I bet it was in U6 too.

We can ask @storm gulch or you can ask me to load up U6 on my laptop. 😛

A stacked 3x3 is not resource efficient, but not by too much.
stacked: 60 log equivalent.
large: 50 log equivalent.

Either way, they hold 180

(not showing build skeleton)

Now... with a little insanity one can cover the whole thing and put 4 on top.

This version uses two corner overhangs and 2 regular overhangs.

[storm gulch]

Yeah there was definitely some weird behavior with the skewer platforms

In U6

[still frigate]

U7 had some weird skewer problems too.

I'm not one to stop with a "little" insanity. Here is the above being prepped for gargantuan storage. Lowest priority to highlight the additions.

And here we are!

Laying it out on top of the stairs mine uses 2 corner overhangs and 5 regular overhangs.

And we put them together.

When finished we'll have around 11,000 coal storage here.

[lucid flame]

Thank you, I appreciate the help. This really helps.

[lucid flame]

I cannot get the ladder to work, so stairs it is......

[still frigate]

The ladder needs road on top of it and from the bottom in to the mine entrance

[still frigate]

These two bits of path are crucial to getting the ladder to work.

[still frigate]

Final product ready to stack more gargantuan storage on top as needed.

@shell fiber Attempting to place the basic nucler reactor cused a crash.

[woeful sun]

hmm, does Vertical Nav Mesh work with Water Beavers?

nm, yes it does. It's just a bit hard to spot in the screenshot

Someone gave a bunch of suggestions on how to make it look better, but neither Bobingabout nor myself has done anything about it yet.

[still frigate]

Not sure what needs to be better?

[cloud flax]

Why would you not put the platforms in the center between the piles rather than keeping the piles touching. It just feels sooo wrong if if it's allowed ☠️

[cloud flax]

Oh thank God... That healed my soul a bit...

[still frigate]

I laid it out before going to gargantuan. Wasn't fully thinking ahead enough.

[still frigate]

Yeah, I was thinking clearer on this one.

[cloud flax]

Sry for that 🫣

[still frigate]

No worries

In the end they workout the same. Different pathing underneath, but end results match.

[still frigate]

@shell fiber The centrifuge crashed upon completion.

[still frigate]

always repeatable.

As soon as it finishes it crashes, even in dev mode.

[still frigate]

NOTE: I am still trying to play as if everything was normal progression, including science for unlocks. However, due to crashing buildings blocking the normal progression chain I am spawning some resources as follows so that testing can continue:

• glass because of high temp furnace crashing
• nuclear fuel because of centrifuge crashing.
• [TBD]

[woeful sun]

The regular path navigation has darkened edges. It would be nice if the vertical section had those too to match.

It looks a bit too plain at the moment

[still frigate]

It functions. That's what matters to me. /laughs

[shell fiber]

That's definitely odd 🤔

Problem is that I have no idea what is the cause 🤔

[shell fiber]

Seems already excessive if you ask me 😅

[shell fiber]

Too be fair it could 😅

[shell fiber]

No it's necessary because now the small nuclear reactor is working as a dome, you can open it to still keep the bad water flow

Otherwise when you open it, the building immediately gets flooded and stops working as a power generator

[shell fiber]

But restored yet 😓

[woeful sun]

nahh, fireflies are too hungy, if they're gonna bite your arm off, they'll finish you off as a desert

[shell fiber]

So right now we have the following problems :

• med beds double click crash
• beaver jail crash
• centrifuge crash on completion
• small nuclear power plant crash when placing
• foundry crash (missing particles)

Is that all ?

[still frigate]

I think so. You listed centrifuge twice

I'm still testing stuff. I'm at 34k science then I can try out the big nuclear reactor.

I do have some suggestions I'd like to discuss, but that is such a low priority right now.

Finally hit 35K science! Gonna test the big reactor.

Wow. I barely had 35k. I now have 1 science point. /laughs

How are we supposed to reach the reactor to build it? I am doing from above in this case. Do we just make ladders and platforms if building from the bottom?

[still frigate]

Perhaps because as it builds it becomes a 6x6?

Did you upgrade the visuals? I don't remember it looking this cool as it built.

Well, it built. YAY!

Gotta figure out how to deal with the water part.

[still frigate]

Before I test this, is it still setup so that once the water is added to the top it never stops, even if the reactor is shutdown?

[still frigate]

Okay, pausing it does NOT stop the flow of water.

It is a beautiful sight to have online.

@shell fiber Unless I have done something wrong it is NOT generating power

It WAS my error. It needed a load to kick on.

Glorious power!

[livid zephyr]

what the UI does just before the crash for the jail crash. text goes away and the UI jumps up in size a couple times. can get you full crash report if you want

[still frigate]

I never noticed the steam animations before.

[still frigate]

@shell fiber I didn't get a screen capture but I just hit something similar. I was passing my mouse over the buttons and either the contamination cage or the washing machine crashed me. It duplicated the icon bar twice as it did so.

And it refuses to replicate the behavior after reloading the game. But I know this specific variant has bitten me before.

[shell fiber]

I wonder if that is caused by moddable tool groups or by something I did wrong 🤔

[still frigate]

All I can say to that is I was using those in LeafCoats and EmberPaws without this issue.

[still frigate]

@shell fiber

Okay, I triggered it. Again, not reliably reproducible, but it was definitely the wellbeing row.

@livid zephyr error was also in the wellbeing row.

Every object that has been reported to cause the crash, not in a menu was a wellbeing object, as far as I can find.

unrelated: What counts as campfire for wellbeing? Timbertrees didn't have any hits.

[still frigate]

A proper air-gapped water safety system. No matter what comes in here, only clean water goes beyond.

Safety sure causes a lot of waste. 😠

[cloud flax]

You might wanna consider the GMO growing labs for big dams. I think they got the best pop/vertical surface area ratio

[still frigate]

Not unlocked yet.

Well, technically they are, I just need a LOT more degrees.

I put all 3 of my ENS to science to get that big reactor unlocked, so I'm behind on degrees. Since I'm waiting for the next patch for several things, I wasn't too worried.

Okay, each one is 3-height instead of two. So two rows replace three. Ah. They need dirt. That is still a commodity for me since I don't have the robotics to make the drills. So many things to do, so few resource to do them with.

That and I'm having trouble with my glowing fluid. I have two balloons getting meat for them and still can't keep up.

When you are pre-airship how much do you allocate to the bugs?

[still frigate]

When are I going to learn how to read? 😭

I got it in my damn head that the abyssal reactor -was- affected by bad tide. That air gap is totally unnecessary.

There gonna be so many homeless beavers for a while.

I am such a bad administrator to let this happen.

[radiant arch]

sorry for breaking it 🙏

[still frigate]

Glad you did. I hated how much water was wating and it was messing with my waterwheels.

I was actually thinking of asking why the aren't like the aquifers and just shutoff in bad tide or something. This is much better.

I got a good build methodology setup for these. Everything can be done from the sky unless I need to dynamite for height adjustment.

As soon as the aqueduct piece being worked on is done, I remove the top bridge and ladder, then add in a side bridge to the next build station. Rinse and repeate.

Hrm.. it lets me add the side in anyway. Cool.

I'll just do cleanup later and let them go.

[cloud flax]

This is exactly the time when I use the wonder 🫣

Everyone gets super happy! Homelessness gets solved easily

[still frigate]

I have never built the WhitePaw wonder in any of my plays.

[cloud flax]

Oh my! You should!!

[still frigate]

Maybe this will be the oen I do it. I -want- to. Just to prove to myself I can 100% beat this map as WhitePaws.

[cloud flax]

You can see the wonder bout to go off left side of balloons

[still frigate]

That is massive and looks cool.

[cloud flax]

7x7 with minimum 6 deep water

[still frigate]

I remeber I was building it once. The lemon canyon map. Don't remember why I stopped.

[cloud flax]

Oh yeah this colony was one of my best ones yet. The map was as well awesome but it's U5map I guess without any 3D terrain stuff so wanna try new map soon

[still frigate]

Now we have more than 3d. Timed explosions that can take out anything they hit. Water sources, deep mines, what have you.

This map had explosions on nearly every cycle until around cycle 25.

It looks a lot different now than it did when I started and taht is without a lot of teraforming form me.

A good case for tight spacing. No room because of the road and the supports. But one level up and it will be fine for the gargantuan storage.

[fair bone]

does anyone have an issue with the small aquifer pump where it only pumps badwater?

[wary panther]

it's 10% contaminated, yes

you can irrigate with that

[cloud flax]

trying to load my old save in the new one. I know a serious offense but still if you ever wanna know about compatibility, this error came up for ziplines i believe:

Parameter name: Component WorkplaceWorkerType wasn't found in entity Zipline_Woodupgrade.Whitepaws deb79e1c-1244-4063-aa4f-3d33af7801ce
Timberborn.WorldSerialization.SerializedEntity.GetComponent (System.String name) (at <80ae8c2b2fc54e77b67066e952bd70bd>:0)
Timberborn.WorldPersistence.EntityLoader.GetComponent (Timberborn.WorldPersistence.ComponentKey key) (at <3dfaba6edba84293ac00e9dd3d4e1dfa>:0)
Timberborn.WorkSystem.WorkplaceWorkerType.Load (Timberborn.WorldPersistence.IEntityLoader entityLoader) (at <2683c18b52aa43a5900f63aec1283b13>:0)
(wrapper dynamic-method) MonoMod.Utils.DynamicMethodDefinition.Timberborn.WorldPersistence.EntitiesLoader.Load_Patch1(Timberborn.WorldPersistence.InstantiatedSerializedEntity)
Timberborn.WorldPersistence.EntitiesLoader.Load (System.Collections.Generic.ICollection`1[T] entities) (at <3dfaba6edba84293ac00e9dd3d4e1dfa>:0)
Timberborn.WorldPersistence.EntitiesLoader.LoadAndInitialize (System.Collections.Generic.ICollection`1[T] entities) (at <3dfaba6edba84293ac00e9dd3d4e1dfa>:0)
Timberborn.WorldPersistence.WorldEntitiesLoader.LoadNonSingletons () (at <3dfaba6edba84293ac00e9dd3d4e1dfa>:0)
Mods.MoreModLogs.SingletonSystemPatch.ErrorReporter (System.Action fn) (at C:/Users/Norman/Documents/src/Timberborn-MoreModLogs/SingletonSystemPatch.cs:61)
(wrapper dynamic-method) MonoMod.Utils.DynamicMethodDefinition.Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadNonSingletons_Patch1(Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService)
Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadAll () (at <e75ae61380e0403ba1d267d8478a32fe>:0)
Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleUnityAdapter.Start () (at <e75ae61380e0403ba1d267d8478a32fe>:0)```

[shell fiber]

okay, i'm back in front of the computer
Somone said that it's possible to unlock the abyss exploration before having the ENS, i believe it's true, but how practical is it ? I know i wanted to make some sort of diploma to be able to use the hooman lab, hooman factory and maybe hooman med center but i had disregarded it because i didn't feel skipping on the ENS was believable (that would be an easy degree though)

[cloud flax]

its technically possible but not a realistic one

since giant half logs no longer need the shiny saw blades (in the log gnawing station)

[shell fiber]

hm... i have no issue with the beaver jail 🤔🤔

[cloud flax]

Aother one for aquifer pump.

Parameter name: Component WaterDepthStrengthModifier wasn't found in entity AquiferPump_TriangleUpgrade_Source 8e8d220b-0618-4b9d-b2c2-cdb30ce85b1e
Timberborn.WorldSerialization.SerializedEntity.GetComponent (System.String name) (at <80ae8c2b2fc54e77b67066e952bd70bd>:0)
Timberborn.WorldPersistence.EntityLoader.GetComponent (Timberborn.WorldPersistence.ComponentKey key) (at <3dfaba6edba84293ac00e9dd3d4e1dfa>:0)
Timberborn.WaterSourceSystem.WaterDepthStrengthModifier.Load (Timberborn.WorldPersistence.IEntityLoader entityLoader) (at <7ea9d988fb7d487481d37f8701222fee>:0)
(wrapper dynamic-method) MonoMod.Utils.DynamicMethodDefinition.Timberborn.WorldPersistence.EntitiesLoader.Load_Patch1(Timberborn.WorldPersistence.InstantiatedSerializedEntity)
Timberborn.WorldPersistence.EntitiesLoader.Load (System.Collections.Generic.ICollection`1[T] entities) (at <3dfaba6edba84293ac00e9dd3d4e1dfa>:0)
Timberborn.WorldPersistence.EntitiesLoader.LoadAndInitialize (System.Collections.Generic.ICollection`1[T] entities) (at <3dfaba6edba84293ac00e9dd3d4e1dfa>:0)
Timberborn.WorldPersistence.WorldEntitiesLoader.LoadNonSingletons () (at <3dfaba6edba84293ac00e9dd3d4e1dfa>:0)
Mods.MoreModLogs.SingletonSystemPatch.ErrorReporter (System.Action fn) (at C:/Users/Norman/Documents/src/Timberborn-MoreModLogs/SingletonSystemPatch.cs:61)
(wrapper dynamic-method) MonoMod.Utils.DynamicMethodDefinition.Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadNonSingletons_Patch1(Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService)
Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleService.LoadAll () (at <e75ae61380e0403ba1d267d8478a32fe>:0)
Timberborn.SingletonSystem.SingletonLifecycleUnityAdapter.Start () (at <e75ae61380e0403ba1d267d8478a32fe>:0)```

[shell fiber]

nor with the med beds

[shell fiber]

you're talking about U7 compatibility ? i don't think it will work, too many buildings will be incompatible

[cloud flax]

aaah fair nuf! i'll just make a note of the buildings if someone ever wants them

[shell fiber]

do you have other UI mods installed ?

[livid zephyr]

had the steam update mod reactivated after first time it happened until just now. and just did it again. only running the bare minimum to get WB to play

[still frigate]

You are going to hate me. I have many mods I am running.

Not as many as I run with LeafCoats or EmberPelts, but 35-ish.

If it is another mod it will be one we are both running.

[still frigate]

How long did you play? It may not take a full cycle, but probably several days. Something needs to build up to trigger it.

[livid zephyr]

well, cleared out all my mods that were installed, even the ones not running, and just downloaded the ones needed for WP and it didnt crash on my for the first time

so something that I had just downloaded, but not even active seems to be the culprit. unfortunately couldnt tell ya what else i had there. probably similar numbers to nox up there or more

[still frigate]

OMG. That would be quite a torturous proposition for me. However, if that ends up being what is needed... so be it. But I'd need a new game, and I have to have save everyday.

Is one of those the ones with the mod profile loader? It is a must for me as well.

These are what I run when map edditing, so it is one of these.

timprove4mods or timberui I would bet.

Did you unsubscribe so steam didn't re-download? @livid zephyr

@shell fiber if you ask this of me, I will do it. Just know that it is not a light endeavor and I need a few more than @livid zephyr 's minimal load as I discueed above. 🙂

Arrgh! I am already pondering making a timberborn "collection" of all mods I am currently subscribed to so that I can undo this easier if LaPan asks it of me. /laughs

If my brain keeps obsesisng on this, I'll probably end up doing it. I'm already trying to convince myself all the other ways it is a really goof idea.

[shell fiber]

i would assume timberUI

[still frigate]

@shell fiber would you please be willing to share a complete listing of what mods YOU are currently running when testing WhitePaws?

[shell fiber]

sure, give me a sec

hm, centrifuge didn't crash 🤔

it's spinning

i'm suspecting it could be timber UI because i used hex code colors and the jail used barred text which is likely uncommon. could be that the guy making timberUI just didn't plan for it 🤔

[still frigate]

Isn't timberui one of Luke's?

Okay, before I do this, I wanna share what I have just been doing.

Sometimes I just sit in the map editor and make geometric art that may or may not someday become a map.

I also like making insane fountains.

This is currently 100% unplayable. 😛

Okay, all timberborn modding content, local and steam, has been removed from my laptop. Even custom edits I did for some EmberPelt stuff in U7.

@shell fiber I'll start with your list plus save everyday.

I'll even skip the mod profile loader/saver

[shell fiber]

thanks !

i'm getting on fixing the foundry

hmm... good point from JC on video N°67... the tree nursery could also take care of harvesting the bananas... 🤔 i would just need to rewrite it as a farm and not a forester 🤔

[still frigate]

for reference, I have to have this one.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3418216697

I cannot remember the last time my mod screen was this bare, but I bet it was when I was doing initial WhitePaws U7 testing. 😛

[shell fiber]

does it still crash ?

goddammit, just got more work dumped on me 😑

okay, see you around !

(i'll still be looking at discord every now and then, but not really fixing things

thankfully i just had fixed the foundry, sort of

[still frigate]

Will probably be a cycle or two before I'd have something to trigger a crash.

I'm also ultra slow and cautious at the start, especially when playing a virgin map.

[shell fiber]

fixed that mess

okay, off to work then

[still frigate]

Thank you sooooo very much.

[still frigate]

gonna try to sleep a bit then I'll return to testing.

[still frigate]

New Timberborn patch causes immediate crash.

[livid zephyr]

Yes

[still frigate]

I am playing with IronTeeth while I wait for WhitePaws to be updated to today's mod-breaking Timberborn update.

I have also added 3 mods to my list.

• More Groups (needed for logstairs to fully work with IT clan)
• Steam Update Buttons (This should be required like save everyday is for me)
• TimberApi UIBuilder

[still frigate]

Not even two weeks of playing WhitePaws again and I am already shocked by how mind-numbingly easy IronTeeth are.

[still frigate]

Ya know, no major work will ever be 100% perfect in everyone's eyes. For instance, while I absolutely love WhitePaws and LeafCoats. Each has their problems, but they are both wonderful.

There is one thing I just can't get used to with WhitePaws which may drive me to learn how to mod just enough to change it. I love terraforming. WhitePaws is based around subtractive terraforming. If I could, I'd mod the cost of dirt blocks down from 1,000 dirt each to 100 dirt each just so I could have more fun terraforming. Hell, I'd be willing to leave that alone if there were a degree one could get that lets you have cheaper additive terraforming options at end game.

But all in all, I think that is a very minor thing. Lapan certainly doesn't need to change his vision to cater to my playing style.

[shell fiber]

yeah, i hear the "bottom matching template was reworked so as to accept multiple entries

which obviously broke the faction

although that is pretty nice for my upgrade system

right now they work through a cryptic occupancy puzzle prongs matching system, which is frankly sub-optimal

also why i can't have them be flippable

but not sure that change will make it better on this side

anyway, gotta go !

[still frigate]

Good hunting. I shall eagerly (even perhaps neurotically?) await when you have time to fix it.

[still frigate]

As most of you all know, I'm an old man. I certainly mention it often enough. Anyway, with age comes even more eccentricities. I'm an old enough tech that when I started learning Linux I was using the VI editor. And I did all my university programming in edit.com (a major step up from edlin). When I discovered notepad++ that was a world changer for me. I have it open on both my computers right now. 😛

Now it's not that I'm totally unexposed to more modern things. I had to take a course in visualbasic.net and thus discovered my first IDE. I still don't use visual studio unless I absolutely have to, which hasn't been for years.

So all of this rambling leads me to the question: can Timberborn be relatively easily modded with something like notepad++, or am I going to have to set up some sort of IDE and editing environment if I want to do modding?

EDIT: to answer my own questions, it looks like I can do the kinds of thing I would wish to do with notepad++ easily enough.

FFS that was easy. Modify line 8 of the appropriate file and I can change it.

Can someone point me to instructions as to how to make my own file that overrides Lapan's file without having to edit his, which I consider a sloppy and inappropriate practice?

[woeful sun]

You can just make a new mod and put your own override in it. "Ladder Json Mod" is a great example

[still frigate]

1,000 thanks!

[woeful sun]

You'll want to add water beavers as a dependency of your mod, so that the games loads yours afterwards

Another option is to make your override an optional blueprint (because those are applied afterwards if I remember correctly)

[still frigate]

Okay, just like when I was modding Crusader Kings.

[still frigate]

Ya lost me on that one.

[woeful sun]

Heh.

[still frigate]

I haven't kept up with the modding scene anywhere.

[woeful sun]

.blueprint.json files can have .optional.blueprint.json, and then they're only loaded if there's at least 1 non-optional file

[radiant arch]

got much easier with timberborn - it's almost all just json files now (called 'blueprints') and you can just add / modify things in original mod or game

[woeful sun]

Makes it easier to have override fragments that only load if the base blueprint is present

Yea, version 1.0 made modding so much easier

[still frigate]

I love json. Probably the last "new" tech I learned before I discovered I wasn't hirable anymore.

[woeful sun]

Now you don't need unity if you're only tweaking an existing object

[still frigate]

Yeah, I don't do graphics. 😛

[woeful sun]

Neither do I 🙂

[still frigate]

I may dig into this tomorrow. I've had a bit too much Scotch to deal with my tremors today to try to grok some of these new concepts. And I mean the old meaning of the word, not the AI.

@woeful sun @radiant arch But thank you both so much for your help. I'll be referncing this when my head is less fuzzy.

[radiant arch]

feel free to reach out if you like - folks at the mod-creators channel are super sweet and helpful too, if ever you have any questions

[still frigate]

It take me... an act of will to associate with a new group of people. That why I chat and post stuff only topic adjacent in places I am comfortale.

Like here

But I have definitely crossed the Balmer peak for today.

https://xkcd.com/323/

xkcd: Ballmer Peak

Apple uses automated schnapps IVs.

[radiant arch]

same usually. no worry. knowing this i wanted to share how easygoing mod creators are here and how it grew to be half the fun to chat with them - much like this channel

have a good rest

[still frigate]

That is encouraging.

[still frigate]

Eh, I'm playing IT while I wait for LaPan.

[still frigate]

No need to worry. I'm big (aka obese) and have Scottish and German ancestry. I handle my alcohol very well and it metabolizes unfortunately quickly.

I don't want these bombs contaminating the good water source here, but blocking off the seep will kill any hope of waterwheels. I guess geothermal and combustion power for this map?

No clue yet how I'll deal with this one in my WhitePaws game on the same map.

[shell fiber]

Is that a bad water seep ? 🤔I didn't know that existed

[still frigate]

Indeed they do! Bwa-ha-ha

[still frigate]

Dev mode view of it.

[shell fiber]

Nice 🙂

[still frigate]

Give one a high flow, delayed start with minimal notification, and put it on a high elevation and you can play havoc with your players

[radiant arch]

love the combination with hard-to-reach explosives that will randomly flood half the map!

[still frigate]

I already am specializing in such things.

[radiant arch]

scary cool!

[still frigate]

Add time delays and bombs and you can really surprise your players. A few early experiments:

[radiant arch]

huuuge! and really cool! and NOX!

[still frigate]

I had to put my mark on it!

That fountain has over 400 strength of badwater feeding it.

I don't know how much water I have feeding this crazy WIP.

#1070709592176197642 message

@radiant arch Remember that you and @crisp parcel are the only two to make maps that truly challenge me.

Okay, I think it is time to try to see if I can wrestle another hour or two of sleep away from my body. The scotch has properly dulled a lot of my pain so that's a good thing.

[radiant arch]

all mine broke with 1.0 🙂

[still frigate]

well fix them! 😛

[radiant arch]

yeah, will have to get to coding again.. been a struggle recently..

or play your map.. really makes me want to ..

[valid salmon]

what version do i need to be on? the experimental branch seems to be down

[still frigate]

experimental, but an update today broke WhitePaws.

[wary panther]

If I could, I'd mod the cost of dirt blocks down from 1,000 dirt each to 100 dirt each just so I could have more fun terraforming

The terraforming mechanic I'd love to try out is one that forces you to cut&fill very locally - no creating or destroying dirt, or hauling it long distances, but with moving it around in small ways available pretty early. Dirt's bulky and heavy - moving it long distances **should ** be hard, but just tweaking a little in a localized fashion doesn't seem like it should be so crazy expensive.

i.e. something like the terrain block and dynamite combined into a 2x1x1 building, where one voxel must be an existing terrain block (like the buffer space that mines now require) and you're building a terrain block in an adjacent empty-but-supported voxel. When completed, it just swaps the two (like the way a tunnel script swaps a platform for the terrain), destroying the block that used to have terrain and filling the one that used to be empty. So you end up having moved the terrain cube one space (in whatever direction).

I would think this might consume modest resources (a few logs/planks) for forms, but have a very slow build time (so it mostly consumes lots of labor). Maybe an "advanced" version that consumes tools/fasteners too and is a bit faster, available later game with you have those supply chains, but still labor intensive.

Probably also also a 2-high/2-wide form that that lets you move dirt up or down one level as well as to the side (so overall a diagonal move); that would presumably have to be a separate "model"

[still frigate]

When it comes to hauling heavy stuff I can imagine the builders of Stonehenge saying "hold my mead"

[cloud flax]

Tbh I was as well thinking of the cut and full idea! But more from perspective of robots. Since we already got bots in carrying 750kg in district crossing, 1000dirt seems much doable.

Not sure how viable but robot terraformers who can only move and build dirt blocks. And they have their version of tunnel that gives 1000 dirt.

Ideally there will be a normal and terraformer version of dirt block and tunnel. The terraformer version to be built using only terraformers and terraformers not being able to build or carry anything else. But not sure if you can add that restriction at all

If it can be restricted then we can just make a single Terraformer dirt to weight like a 1000kg so no one else can pick it up XD

[still frigate]

@shell fiber
TImprove 4 Mods is the one that adds the mod loading and saving features. It requires TimberUi.

Were you thinking it was one of these two causing the crash with WhitePaws?

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3468642084

https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=3430626620

[shell fiber]

Hmm, the idea is nice but that might be a bit tedious since the blocks you'd be moving would not overlap 🤔
Also on a practical aspect, the dirt building and building swap on completion scripts have very low flexibility, I don't think I could get it to behave 😓

[shell fiber]

It's sad that they removed the terraforming station, having dedicated builders to only some tasks was neat

[cloud flax]

Yeahhh that would have been perfect for that!!!

[shell fiber]

Unfortunately that's not how it works, a beaver could put Jupiter in a box and carry it easy peasy, it would just suffer a speed penalty for being overburdened

[cloud flax]

Oh right! That's how they move the anvils

Idk if some permutation combination of robot only building, building swapping , maybe even district crossing but it just all seems tooooo convoluted and can't think clearly

[high light]

I've just received the following crash. was running fine yesterday. mods are bobing script pack, bobing housing optimize, harmony, knattematerials, mod settings, timbercommons, grauschweifs scriptpack, frog statue, pipette tool, billboards, goods stats, moddable tool group, 1x1x2storage, texture pack, staircase, tool finder, logstairs, whitepaws 6.0.6. Also happens if I turn off pipette, goods stats, frog statue, and tool finder which i think makes it mostly the required mods list.

[woeful sun]

Everything is broken with the latest experimental update

[shell fiber]

yeah there was an update yesterday that broke everything

[shell fiber]

oh, sorry, hadn't seen your reply

i'm fixing it now

[shell fiber]

okay, got a lauch

sad

but at the same time, this will still allow me to simplify the giant pillars i think

and there is something i've been itching to do for a while

[naive tide]

yea the frog statue mod needs to be stripped of moddable prefab to work too

[shell fiber]

I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to fix the nuclear reactor green metal not being glowy 😓

[still frigate]

That's a pity; it was so cool.

[radiant arch]

oh darn.. sooo forgot about that one.. will fix it next week, promised 🤞

[valid salmon]

so just bad luck? i just have to be on the V1 and dependencies right? do i need u7/6 ?

[valid salmon]

So did they add something big that broke the mod? Returning to the game after ages, can't really play vanila anymore lol

[wary panther]

Darn. I was hoping the proliferation of "tunnel -> {path, levee, power, ...} " mods meant the script was maybe pretty flexible about what replaced it when construction completed. Thanks for giving it a thought.

that might be a bit tedious
well, that would be kind of the point - discourage "bulldoze the world flat" by making it very tedious instead making individual terrain blocks ruinously expensive

[woeful sun]

oh, Hi!

[shell fiber]

i've fixed the mod for yesterday's update

[shell fiber]

is that more or less glowy than before ? same ?

🤨

No explanation

[woeful sun]

archived?

If I try and visit it, it says 'water beaver overhaul' has been deleted

and I assume you didn't do it intentionally?

From mod.io status updates channel

[shell fiber]

it seems fixed now

[still frigate]

I just saw this and I am so happy! Albeit I'm torn as well.

I have 101 levels of death, doom, and gloom that now get put aside while I switch back to WhitePaws! 😛

note: I am very happy to see bobbingabout's housing modifier as a requirement.

@shell fiber My tests will take time to get to a point where I can better verify if the UI problem is fixed. I thought I would shortcut back to my old save but there are still enough removed mods that the save crashes. /laughs

Okay, I immediately triggered the UI crash. So yes, it is an incompatibility with one of the mods I added back in.

This is what it looks like breaking for me.

[shell fiber]

oh, that's super weird, looks like you have two different UIs on top of each other 🤔

[still frigate]

I have unsubscribed from TImprove 4 Mods and TimberUi and am testing again.

[still frigate]

Yeah, every time it crashed it did that. It just took me forever (and to be on my main computer) to get a quick screenshot of it.

[naive tide]

such a weird bug too

almost looks like 3 UIs on top of each other at the dialog near the bottom

[still frigate]

note: map resizer also requires TimberUI, so I am unsubscribing from Map Resizer for now as well.

I -am- still using "MoreGroups" which may be the problem but I want to keep that on my system for now to test that theory.

I granted myself 1,000 science so I can tst more things. This is not going to be a map I seriously playthrough anyway after messing about with it in IronTeeth while waiitng for WhitePaws. It's not a bad map per se.

@shell fiber How verbose would you like me to be with testing methods as I go?

Or would your rather I just wait for a bug to hit and then say what I've been trying?

observation/opinion: You may have nerf'd reclaiming artifacts a wee bit too much. I can live with 5 contaminated from one 200 50 science artifact, but 7 full days to research it was too much, IMO.

[shell fiber]

hmm... i would need to try it myself, or wait to see what other people thing. but the risk to beavers is directly proportionnal to the time it takes.

[still frigate]

I don't mind the risk.

[shell fiber]

as you like, no worries. but it's one of the mods you're using right ?

[still frigate]

I believe it is one of the mods I am using that causes the crash. Problem is, IMO, it is a critical mod to have. And if it is the TimberUI one, that is even more critical since multiple other mods require it. But... not to worry about that too much until we lock down which mod(s) are the true culprits.

Right now I am testing "MoreGroups" with the other two removed.

[shell fiber]

what is it that require timberUI ?

[still frigate]

Map Resizer is the second one that needs it, which every map I make requires to be able to play. Also most of janleon's maps need it too.

[still frigate]

Just as an fyi - On the 7th straight day of working, this one is only at 59%

UPDATE: took 10 days and only generated 1 contaminated beaver.

I am going to say that it is highly unlikely that MoreGroups is the culprit. Gonna install TimberUI and Luke's Map Resizer mod just so I have something that uses TimberUI.

Very much leaning towards the problem being ``Timprove 4 Mods` but I'd like stronger evidence.

[shell fiber]

oh, more groups is not to be mixed up with moddable tool groups, i wouldn't assume them to be compatible since they attempt to do the same thing

[still frigate]

Weird. Logstairs said I had to add MoreGroups to be able to use it with IronTeeth.

I have not crashed. I'm gonna add Timprove 4 mods back in and see if I can crash.

[still frigate]

On moddable tool groups, Luke's site says this: - This mod does nothing on its own. It only provides a framework that other mods can use to add multi-level tool groups. You can pick any flavor from those mods like More Groups or my own More Organized Tool Groups mod.

Just say "not today" to badwater seeps! 😛

Of course the bug isn't triggering yet. Intermittent bugs are so annoying.

[still frigate]

@shell fiber Would turning on "more useful logging" (in TimberCommons) be of any use for you?

[still frigate]

@shell fiber I got it to trigger again, but I still can't be 100% sure what mod is causing it. I am including the entire error zip for you.

This seems key to me: InvalidOperationException: VisualElements cannot be removed from an active visual tree during generateVisualContent callback execution nor during visual tree rendering at UnityEngine.UIElements.UIR.RenderTreeManager.UIEOnChildRemoving (UnityEngine.UIElements.VisualElement ve) [0x0000b] in <1b716c0fc2144b18bb2dd1c701f749cf>:0

It is giving a draw error and a nullreferenceexception.

And this: MeshGenerationContext is assigned to a VisualElement after calling 'UnityEngine.UIElements.UIR.MeshGenerationCallback'. Did you forget to call 'End'?

I can easily see the lack of an end somewhere causing the behavior we are seeing. Could also be why it is inconsistent especially if memory isn't being cleared. It would need time to build up to the error state.

[still frigate]

anyone: How do y'all deal with these thrice damned things in a WhitePaws game?

(Other than wus out and turn bad tide off like I am wont to do.)

[naive tide]

simply aqueduct the badwater they generate off the edge of the map

and absolutely line the whole thing full of both badwater and water pumps

[still frigate]

Gotta be pretty far in to have sequoias unlocked for that.

[naive tide]

well that/getting badwater and dynamite to make one naturally are your best options

What it boils down to is get the generated badwater from them off the map and benefit from them during badtides using both kinds of water pumps

[still frigate]

This map loves to throw bad water drains into your few good water seeps.

They doubled down on this one!

It is definitely a dynamite job. The first one would be impractical to dynamite.

Impractical or not, I think that is the best bet with it.

[still frigate]

Thank you.

WTF?!!! Does that work in vanilla too???

[Dynamite exploded in the blast range of a bomb set the bomb off!!!]

[still frigate]

This crash came from clicking on a contamination jail (intent was to pause it but I didn't get that far).

I've click on that jail (and the 3 others) numerous times without issue, then just this one time click and it went boom.

The problem is, these crashes are so intermittent and so hard to reproduce reliably that it is vary hard proving what is and what is not causing it with any degree of certainty.

I'm gonna remove Timprove 4 mods again and just play for hours and see what happens. It is the best I can think of.

This was FOUR hours of playing without a crash, so maybe if I can play for another 4-6 and no crashes we can maintain high confidence that it is Timprove 4 mods?

If it is that one, any chance you can work with Luke on figuring out how to still do what you want without his mod being upset at it?

Hrm? Jails can't be paused. So I had to delete them to force my -many- contaminated beavers to use the beaver washer.

This beaver (1 of 3 still contaminated) is staying in the beaver washer and not really healing. Any thoughts? All three just have a sliver of contamination left and have gone though multiple washing cycles.

[still frigate]

Never mind. I was out of PRF.

UPDATE: It is not Timprove 4 mods. That was uninstalled and off my computer and I just crashed with mouseover of the contamination jail in the build menu.
@shell fiber

Here is my current mod list:

Gargantuan Liquid Storage still crashes.

[lucid flame]

Hope this helps with the contamination jail crash.

I'm only using required mods

[valid salmon]

my game is crashing without even showing me a proper error message it just disappears so fast
this is all i got. Ive just got the base game and the 1.0 mod and its dependencies. Do i also need U6/7 or other mods as well? not even sure whats wrong here

[woeful sun]

Remove BepInEx, it's causing the crash

It was used in Update 5. Not used (but no bad effect) in Update 6, started crashing in Update 7.

[valid salmon]

oh

i didnt realise it was out of date. I reinstalled and the message itself seemed like it was loading

[shell fiber]

Ouch 😅

[shell fiber]

prf ?

[naive tide]

so this is a problem related to one or more of those mods

[cloud flax]

pollution resistance factor

[cloud flax]

Imma give up my effort to load my last version save to new version it seems ☠️

Time to hunt for a new map now

[shell fiber]

Sorry...

[cloud flax]

Aye no worries man. Not complaining.... Just looking for more new ways to have fun with the mod!!!

Might get an idea for tutorial as I go through the sequence again

[still frigate]

Did you have to fix it or did it just work for you?

[still frigate]

Mine builds but as soon as I select a liquid it crashes.

I even selected the same liquid you did. crash.

[shell fiber]

Ahah, sorry I just fixed it in my dude

On my side

LoL auto correct 🤣

[still frigate]

Yeah autocorrect. Messes me up all the time.

Also that was probably the first time anyone has ever called me "my dude" even if by accident. And I was a teen in the 1980s where everyone and their dog were "dude"! But not my dude. /laughs

[still frigate]

I still haven't built everything possible, but we're getting a lot closer to running out of things that are broken.

[shell fiber]

i added a faster exploration reciepe to the airship, since it flies faster it should also be able to explore faster

also added to the ENS a reciepe for a licence in hoomanities which is used for the hooman facility, lab, and medical thingie

and in the process of doing that, i saw that the airship has lost its position and rotation modifier

[still frigate]

Nice!

Except the loss modifier

I'm close to being ready to build an airship too. Until then I was concentrating on getting my second abyssal mine going so I could build at least one of all the accessories that can be added to it.

[still frigate]

@shell fiber did you get rid of the aura of sickness that these used to have?

[shell fiber]

yes, that was not an important feature, and it caused some issues

i'm about to upload an update

[still frigate]

Nox's NEW Mechanical Drills Automation Rules

I had to rewrite these to work with 1.0 automation. These really help when using these buildings.

EDIT: These need some tweaking so i have hidden them for now. I have them working correctly now.

COAL:

condition:(le (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Rock) 1000)
action:(act Pausable.Unpause)

condition:(le (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Coal) 5000)
action:(act Pausable.Unpause)

condition:(lt (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Dirt) 5000)
action:(act Pausable.Unpause)

condition:(ge (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Dirt) 15000)
action:(act Pausable.Pause)

condition:(ge (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Rock) 8000)
action:(act Pausable.Pause)

condition:(ge (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Coal) 25000)
action:(act Pausable.Pause)

IRON:

condition:(le (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Rock) 1000)
action:(act Pausable.Unpause)

condition:(lt (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Ironore) 5000)
action:(act Pausable.Unpause)

condition:(lt (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Dirt) 5000)
action:(act Pausable.Unpause)

condition:(ge (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Ironore) 25000)
action:(act Pausable.Pause)

condition:(ge (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Rock) 8000)
action:(act Pausable.Pause)

condition:(ge (sig Inventory.OutputGood.Dirt) 15000)
action:(act Pausable.Pause)```

[still frigate]

• Gargantuan Liquid Storage working as expected
• New degree did not cause problems with existing buildings
• TODO: New degree does not display in a readable format
• testing to determine what caused crash...

[still frigate]

@shell fiber It appears to be the airship the causes the crash. I used dev mode to create one for testing and when unpausing it crashed.

[shell fiber]

okay, i'll look into it

i'm trying to edit the tutorial right now

first test

[still frigate]

🎶Two steps forward, one step back. 🎵 /laughs
(No offense I hope,)

minor bug: display name needed

[still frigate]

ALSO, if this was supposed to have a fireworks effect it does not.
(Never seen the option for dynamite before)

[still frigate]

I don't know but I like how it looks!

Too bad the glowing fluid doesn't have as strong an effect. 😛

[shell fiber]

yeah, it'ss glowy in itself, but is not a light source

okay, i gutted the tutorial into submission

and it works now

of by "work" i mean "do not crash" and is two step long

[still frigate]

No abyssal liquid storage?

[shell fiber]

nope

i figured that liquid storage is a direct incentive to not build a dam, which is not good

so the medium storage is all you're going to get, until you unlock the giga storage house

well crap, the airship is going to be troublesome to fix

turns out the animation was in unity, not blender

hence, is lost

not that it is very complex, but still

[still frigate]

@shell fiber
MINOR: The no drill bits version is wrong.

[shell fiber]

oh, good point, i forgot to restore that !

[still frigate]

placing the BASIC nuclear reactor still causes a crash.

[shell fiber]

okay, should be fixed now

letmesee

i can probably upload the fix on steam

for now i just removed the animation of the airship

to prevent crashes

drills should be fixed

although uploading on steam with zero testing...

maybe best to wait until tomorro

sorry 😅

unless i can crash test it super fast

and crash ...

whelp, see you tomorrow

[still frigate]

I'll keep testing...

advanced warm storage crashes

[shell fiber]

Hmm... Makes sense, all of the particles attachments broke

[still frigate]

It may soon seem as if I am Nitpicking; however, I am simply attempting to be as thorough as possible. I have no intention of repeating my failure in being thorough with U7.

The forestry upgrade (hauling and building both) still requires one to built their own access to it as shown. Disregard if this is intentional (and let me know).

[shell fiber]

Intentional ☺️

[still frigate]

Okay, these rules are in the correct order to work right.

If the order isn't correct they can get clogged and you have to manually step in. What good is automation if you need that?

[still frigate]

@shell fiber Another challenging one?

Things I saw when the area dried out leave me to believe that these grape plants are doubling-up. The graphical glitches I have marked move and seem related to the doubling up of the grape graphic.

@shell fiber Similiar doubling up with bananas. Plus they aren't getting harvested.

[still frigate]

Intentional or not? Pumpkin Chips

@shell fiber

There are no places that cook this save for the cooking tents.

(Personally I'd love to see them added to the woefully underutilized Industrial Kitchen.)

[cloud flax]

Man your script saved so much hassle for me in the last save!!! Thanks for the updated one

[still frigate]

I'm just thrilled to know my script has helped at least one person.

Does this mean this sucker can be powered from underneath?!

Oh! 'Can be' was the wrong idea. 'Must be' is the correct realization.

[still frigate]

Clockwork Kitchen Animations?

@shell fiber

The Beaver Cooker Clockwork Kitchen is not animated, but seems to function just fine otherwise.

[still frigate]

@shell fiber

Never runs dry... excepth during a drought?

@shell fiber The gaming attic sits too high. Makes it extra difficult to place it too.

It functions okay and gets visitors.

@shell fiber

Exercize Plaza causes game to crash.

The Pentaque Court no longer animates.

Clicking the public fountain in the bottom bar caused a crash.

[still frigate]

pointer statue listed twice.

unlocking bot assembler

@shell fiber Okay, I am 98% certain that I have "touched" every buildable except the final wonder. There were a lot at the end, but that was sorta to be expected.

I'm gonna dev-assisted supply materials for the monument and let my beavers make it if they can.

update: I got my hole full of water and it accepted the outline without a crash. Just gotta wait as they assemble it.

[still frigate]

This poor beaver!!! 😱

Well, this is curious. Unlike most building in-progress the monument cannot be clicked at this time.

I can change priority only by dragging the mouse over the area.

I remember this in U7... a bit of social commentary perhaps? Always one slacker sleeping on the job, even with beavers.

It is once again clickable at this stage.

[still frigate]

!!!

Looks like the game wants painted tails for all. 😛

@shell fiber

And that ends my testing build-through. Now I just wait for the dozen or so problems I reported in the past two days to get patched and test them for you.

[still frigate]

OMG! I kept getting death by rocket reports for a day after the launch before they finally stopped coming in! 😱

[shell fiber]

is the objective to save on power ? rather than having the drills stay idle

[still frigate]

The objective is to keep the player from having to intervene to get the inventories emptied out.

[still frigate]

With the automation mod and my scripts this never needs done by the player.

[shell fiber]

this won't be an issue anymore in 1.0, they have fixed the hauling behavior that caused that 😊

[still frigate]

Unfortunately they didn't. It was happening still.

Well, now that I have 40 bots it is being kept up with. 😛

Perhpas I simply didn't have enough haulers before?

[cloud flax]

Ayeeee miss them. RPG games would be cool place to have tails painted!!

[shell fiber]

mmeeeeeh...
i honestly really do not care about the detailer, but if people really like it i could make an effort.
i just think it doesn't add anything, plus i don't find tatoos aesthetically pleasing in general 🤔

[cloud flax]

We can make aesthetically pleasing tattoos 👀

But would really love if we could have that 🥺

[still frigate]

I'm neutral. Just surprised it was an end-game stat even when they weren't in the mod.

[still frigate]

Sweet!!!
I shall begin testing.

[naive tide]

almost wonder if that tank should also be standalone as the counterpart to the crazy huge piles and warehouses from 1x1x2Storage

[still frigate]

That is the ONLY large water storage. All others beyond medium were removed. There isn't even abyssal liquid storage.

[naive tide]

I'd like to use that giant water tank in a standalone mod for other factions too

[still frigate]

Ah!

[naive tide]

akin to what 1x1x2Storage did with the equivalent piles and warehouses

[still frigate]

Yep. Now I follow you.

I can be a bit slow at times. 😉

[naive tide]

I was able to hunt down and find the cause of the crash with this mod and the Leaf Coats
#🚀mod-users message

Turns out it's due to Logstairs having the same name for a crappy birch platform internally as the Leaf Coats' crappy birch platform

Might be easiest for both mods to rename that platform in their code

[still frigate]

testing:

• basic nuclear - good
• cooking animation - good
• amusing death note I've not seen before!
• airship doesn't crash, but does not fly. It does gather goods. I expect fixing the flying will be a future patch due to how much work it will be.
• mining drills animating as expected
• exercise plaza working
• display name for new degree - still missing
• bananas - not gathering - still looks doubled like the grapes
• crash on hot storage placement
  To be continued after I reboot the game...

[still frigate]

@shell fiber

testing continued

• nerd attic placed properly.
• did pentanque animate before? Not sure now. Not animating if it did.
• still showing two pointer statues (NOT in dev mode)
• public fountain now places and builds.
• bot assembler crashes on placement

tested problems remaining summary:

@shell fiber

• two minor issues
• two items crash the game
• no bananas/duplicate plants in same space

[shell fiber]

Oh right, the hot storage 😓

I'm working on the complete review of the text entries (+French translation) so the text will wait for now

The greenhouse bug is still incomprehensible to me, when I tested it worked 😓

[still frigate]

They actually picked the bananas for you?

[shell fiber]

Bot assembler... I have no idea what is wrong with it 🤔

[shell fiber]

Don't forget it's a tree

Need to be marked and cut by a lumberjack

I believe the duplicate plant is only visual though 🤔

And I'm pretty sure I never bothered animating the petanque court, that seems like hell to do 😅

[still frigate]

Yep. Lumberjack flag right outside and verified they are marked to cut

cut trees view

[shell fiber]

I'll need to look into that again, again, again 🥲

[still frigate]

Nearly have them all fixed at least.

[livid zephyr]

You'd think lapan of all beavers would know to not stand there...

[still frigate]

I am considering doing the same. If we both do so, it will be interesting comparing approaches and what guidance each of us gives.

Since most of the bugs have been resolved I am starting a new WhitePaws game with no dev-mode assists or corrections. I'm doing this on a new and untested map I just made, so it may end in total disaster.

Using "easy" difficulty with 100% materials refund. And, against my better judgement, I will leave both bad tides and droughts on.

[cloud flax]

I shall wish thou luck in your adventure

[still frigate]

It, of course, looks different in WhitePaws. So much thistle. And a bomb in 11 days. And a new badwater seep in 25 days.

[cloud flax]

Those many brambles.... You gonna have any space left for farming?

[still frigate]

There are tricks to dealing with those. 😛 My favorite is to surround them with unplanted trees or crops so they can't spread out of control. I also put paused crappy platforms over the cleared bits of road since brambles ignore roads.

But... every bit of wood in the starting area is now brambles. We've got to get through some metal to get to usable wood. Only a problem for WhitePaws. Other clans would be fine.

[cloud flax]

I know but that just feels like cheat honestly:P
I just cover the area with rice so that they don't get planted

[still frigate]

In a way, perhaps, though some of those trees will be planted and the rest will be crops. One could say I'm just prepping for the future.

Hrm... lumberjacks run through the metal to get to the wood. Not as dire a situation as I thought.

[livid zephyr]

Actually enjoyed the look of fencing off the brambles on the run I started recently and do things properly. Have since cleared out starting area brambles and collect them elsewhere, but it looked nice for the time haha

[still frigate]

I put my 3-piece "wood decimator" behind fence and gate when setting them against brambles.

[cloud flax]

The lumberjack barn+ the upgrade?

[still frigate]

yep. I love that combo.

[still frigate]

Thank you for the rice idea. Keeps my forest from putting pine trees in my farm until I get it laid out how I want.

I like putting little tricks and inconspicuous goodies in my maps. For instance, here is a slope by a blockage. Most people would ignore the blockage, maybe not even notice it. But if one removes it and the slope, there is an underground wet area perfect for bathing water beavers.

[still frigate]

I always forget how long I have until my beavers go on strike because of no baths. Anyone know?

[radiant arch]

not really remember, but should be less than 4 days i believe

the cart workers might be protected from it (while working?) if the cart still has that effect

usually it's: lumber, water, food/ berries, shower for me, all done within 3 days

[still frigate]

I got bathing on early day 10. So far no one had flipped out.

[still frigate]

All the iron in the way really delayed me.

But, the baths were the last critical thing I was missing. Farm is doing nicely. Nearly have my pines planted. Two water pumps going. And starting mushrooms and lumber.

[radiant arch]

why not abuse the passthru lumbers and build a log stair?

looks like a real nice and cozy start

[still frigate]

Not following you?

[radiant arch]

sorry.. not fully awake.. the wood cutting should work without clearing the iron first? wouldn't that allow to build a log stairs to bypass the iron till much later?

[still frigate]

For getting up to the next level, yes, but not for getting to the safe water. There was either a 2 or 3 iron ruins here.

Wolfpaw lake is not safe water. Or it wont be in 14 days.

[radiant arch]

had a feeling the initial view wasn't telling it all haha

[still frigate]

My design may have screwed me. I set the original water source that was going to allow claypits to a delayed start to cycle 7.

The lake is just slightly to shallow for one level, but unless Lapam altered the flood threshold there is too much water to move it down 1.

[radiant arch]

isnt those twists half the fun of playing with whitepaws?

[still frigate]

One of the only two drains out of that lake is right here. I'm gonna try to block it and hope it is enough.

When the badwater seep activates the water level will raise a bit, but too much contamination and the claypit stops working.

[radiant arch]

really hard to get down with buckets too..

[still frigate]

I was wise to save before I tried to place a contamination jail. Just hobering over it crashed me. Should be fine to do immediately after restarting.

[still frigate]

Sometimes, actually often, I see things when playing a map that I didn't think of when creating it. Making wolfpaw lake safe(ish) only took two levies!

[still frigate]

@cloud flax For your tutorial there is one thing cobsistently holding me back each new game I play. I forget just how powerful the free unlocks are. The water tower, for instance, can make any land usable when I finally remember it is ready for me to use, no science needed.. I struggle with what is available for far too long.

[still frigate]

The doom fell upon our colony with great ferocity, taking friend and foe alike. Brambles and berries destroyed right and left. Even the secret underground bathing pond was contaminated. Some beavers still cling to hope, or is it desperation? Time will tell.

[cloud flax]

I'll likely start in Feb second week as I got performances lined up on first week and been busy with thoseee. Will modify the tech tree at the same time too

[still frigate]

Wolfpaw lake is gone is no more and desperate times call for desperate actions. Derelict pumps form an emergency dam so that there is enough water for 56 starving beavers to bathe and get some food harvested.

[still frigate]

The colony did not survive

Also, I haven't played before with captive seeps and red tide active. They get corrupted, they stay corrupted for a long time.

[still frigate]

On my second attempt at this map. At the end of day 3 I have everything but the water pump. It is built; just waiting for the road connection.

[shell fiber]

Roughly 10 days

[still frigate]

@shell fiber I have a pretty reliable, but imprecise, way of testing for the Contamination Jail Bug. However, since one member said they only had the minimum required mods and it still triggered, how much good is it?

Regardless, here it is:

• Play for a significant(exact value uncertain) amount of time; multiple days at lest.
• SAVE FIRST (if you don't wanna loose all your hard work)
• click the contamination jail in the toolbar
• restart your game after the crash
  OR
• play another few days if it didn't crash and try again

note: sometimes clicking on a built jail will also cause it, but this is not reliable. I have played for hours and clicked on a jail without problem, and I have had one crash me after ten minutes.

[still frigate]

@shell fiber I just noticed the big nuclear reactor doesn't show up anymore. Its it dynamically shown after some unlock or is it a bug?

[still frigate]

A cruel situation: block up the invading bad water for a time so you can get your colony better prepared, but then have no easy access to bad water until around 120-150 days.

There is the option of relics for science, but odds are you might end up with more contaminated beavers.

Of course as White Paws you can go to the fault line and drop-builf a tower of pit & ladder houses to reach the purple water down there... or even the full bad water even deeper in.

Then again, around cycle 5, there will be a pair of explosions and you will have a new source of bad water makings its way to your previously protected lake.

Of course Wolfpaw Lake's days are numbered. A series of bombs will beave a puncture wound in the middle of the pad. Sure, you can build around it, but then you have beavers living in what will by then be mixed water at best.

[radiant arch]

is that outflow blocking along the sides i spot there?

[still frigate]

Is it one of my maps? 😛

Yes, 3 of the 4 sides are mostly blocked from draining. There are two small drains at Wolfpaw lake. (I have the one colony side blocked.)

In 6 more days a pair of explosions will release the pressure of the bad water and good water both from my writing. It has been building since starting the map. The bad water is what destroyed my last game. But the ancient aqueduct wasn't there in that map revision. Probably wont save everything but it should mitigate some of the damage.

The lettering is from a 9-pin dot matrix grid. 😛 (7 x 5 usable with the rest reserved for line spacing.)

Badwater pressure is so high that some is spilling over the side of the aqueduct.

[naive tide]

The aqueduct's in need of higher walls

so it can take the pressure of the badwater and not flood down the sides

[still frigate]

Yep. The player wont have time to fix it, of course. Also the pink trees broke the last leg of it so it drains all over. These things would need altered in the map editor. But... should I?

Still, more of my beavers survived and we -just- got a lido built and new water for the all-important baths. Half my workforce was ready to walk off their jobs in protest of no baths.

30 dirty and 56 contaminated.

Aaaand 9 days until the lake blows.

Ate lest we now have 3 river baths and a lido with water dump to keep it full.

I should probably break my no dev-mode and use the map editor to repair the damage to the map that the mod itself caused.

This isn't intended to be in ruins.

Fixed it in my save. I'll edit the map itself so this wont happen in new games. (No oaks under the aqueduct! Pink trees have one more square of height than oaks.)

I am half tempted to go to the save before the explosion, fix the damage there, then ride it out and see how it goes... should I?

I wont raise the sides though. Just repair what the trees broke.

Yeah, doing it. That is a 15 day warp back in time. I think the TVA and The Doctor would both be understanding. 😛

[radiant arch]

darn.. you make me want to mod and map-make again.. and play your weird maps...

just the little detail of wanting some of lapans map elements back, those glowing crystals just are soo cool for caves.. and want crystal pillars.. (lika ancient greek pillar blocks out of crytal, some slight glow)

[still frigate]

I want them back too!

Okay, dipping back into the timestream with a "pristine" ancient aqueduct.

0.2 days until BOOM

[radiant arch]

you know what this game is missing?

some kinda seeds.. like there's this dead big forest and all. and imagine there was some seeds in there that could grow into live plants when watered again?

building anything on them would kill them i guess.. or delay with paths if possible.. just not like how all the dead parts stay indefinitely dead ,,

[still frigate]

Imagine if brambles came back to life if watered?!

The initial breech is inevitable, as it was "meant" to be by the (map) creator. But the secondary flooding wont happen from the ruined aqueduct. Now to watch the carnage unfold.

[radiant arch]

would be awesome!

[still frigate]

The flow stabilizes and stops spilling over before the toxic & radioactive spill reaches the colony, but there is no stopping the flood.

So much less devastation. Just need them to build that lido

The damage this time.

[radiant arch]

no spill anymore?

[still frigate]

But with the new lido and the baths in operation we have happy unwell and contaminated beavers.

Interestingly we will still end up with 56 contaminated beavers from that.

[still frigate]

only during the initial pressure surge.

[radiant arch]

56 sounds like it had impact, nice!

[naive tide]

@still frigate What map is that btw?

[still frigate]

Current name is 004-NOX-WIP-SEEPING-DESERT (384x128)

It isn't fitting its name and original concept very well. /laughs

[still frigate]

@radiant arch The series of explosions that puncture Wolfpaw Lake also blast the water generators maintaining the invisible wall.

[naive tide]

so now it has like three sinkholes?

[still frigate]

Only 2

[still frigate]

Now that I have the center plugged, I can see that only one square here is a drain.

[still frigate]

A proper spillway brings this little mess to a close (except when bad tide hits)

[shell fiber]

The game doesn't display things that requires to be build on something else, as long as the something else has not been build. So if you build an elevator to the abyss it will appear.

[still frigate]

I did not know that. Even after all this time playing.

[shell fiber]

No it's new from 1.0

[still frigate]

That explains it. I have spent a lot of 1.0 jumping into dev mode to test stuff. This may be my first 1.0 playthrough with no dev mode assists.

At least with WhitePaws

[nova crescent]

@shell fiber Hovering over Contaminated Jail in tool bar crashes the game.

[still frigate]

I redid the center to comply with Lapan's guidelines; all are active.

@shell fiber This tower wont build without the crane. (I have ways around it that are not elegant.)

[shell fiber]

I'm forward the log to Luke see if he can make sense of it

[shell fiber]

I would need to check if 1.0 plays by different rules but likely no solution except overhang platform

[nova crescent]

Will generate the logs in morning without more logs mod to see if that produces less error messages.

[lucid flame]

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
UnityEngine.UIElements.UIR.MeshGenerator.DrawText (System.Collections.Generic.List⁨1[T] vertices, System.Collections.Generic.List⁩1[T] indices, System.Collections.Generic.List⁨1[T] materials, System.Collections.Generic.List⁩1[T] renderModes) (at <1b716c0fc2144b18bb2dd1c701f749cf>:0)
UnityEngine.UIElements.UITKTextJobSystem.AddDrawEntries (UnityEngine.UIElements.MeshGenerationContext mgc, System.Object _) (at <1b716c0fc2144b18bb2dd1c701f749cf>:0)
UnityEngine.UIElements.UIR.MeshGenerationDeferrer.Invoke (UnityEngine.UIElements.UIR.MeshGenerationDeferrer+CallbackInfo ci, UnityEngine.UIElements.MeshGenerationContext mgc) (at <1b716c0fc2144b18bb2dd1c701f749cf>:0)
UnityEngine.UIElements.UIElementsRuntimeUtilityNative:RepaintPanels(Boolean)

Contamination Jail crash file

[woeful sun]

Needs to have triple-backtick added before and after the log message to format nicely

also there are multiple exceptions, so it's not 100% clear which is the cause and which are collateral damage

⁨TextGenerator.DrawUnderlineMesh (...) [0x0004d]⁩ is ⁨textInfo.meshInfo[materialIndex].vertexCount⁩

which implies that the ⁨materialIndex⁩ of ⁨m_Underline⁩ is wrong

(or ⁨meshInfo⁩ is empty)

⁨m_Underline⁩ is supposed to be set up in ⁨GetUnderlineSpecialCharacter⁩

If it's the first time the ⁨TextGenerator⁩ is used and it's threaded, then there's a chance that ⁨m_Underline⁩ could have a ⁨character⁩, but ⁨materialIndex⁩ is not yet set

it's initially set to ⁨⁨⁨m_CurrentMaterialIndex⁩⁩⁩

but can be altered if the underline font is different from the current font

[lucid flame]

Sorry, I don't speak computer and understood zero of that haha, I was just trying to be helpful with the crash reports

[woeful sun]

hmm, I don't see any underline in the text, but there is strikethrough

[lucid flame]

let me see what comes up from another crash report

[woeful sun]

Yea, instead of writing:⁨⁨⁨⁨foo⁩⁩ you can write ⁨```
​​foo​​

wow, how do I escape `'s

I suspect Discord has broken something

found a work around (add Zero-Width-Joiner's between the backticks)

also the first crash above that one, it's this (with extra stuff deleted): ⁨```
IndexOutOfRangeException: Index was outside the bounds of the array.
at UnityEngine.TextCore.Text.TextGenerator.DrawUnderlineMesh [0x0004d]
at UnityEngine.TextCore.Text.TextGenerator.LayoutPhase [0x02031]
at UnityEngine.TextCore.Text.TextGenerator.GenerateTextMesh [0x00288]
at UnityEngine.TextCore.Text.TextGenerator.GenerateText [0x00052]
at UnityEngine.TextCore.Text.TextHandle.UpdateWithHash [0x00081]
at UnityEngine.UIElements.UITKTextHandle.UpdateMesh [0x00048]
at UnityEngine.UIElements.UITKTextJobSystem+GenerateTextJobData.Execute [0x00042]

[woeful sun]

Need to double check the 2 Player log because there can be multiple exceptions

It looks like ⁨DrawUnderlineMesh⁩ is used for strikethrough too

So I suspect ⁨Jailed beavers will no longer need drinks, food, sleep, shelter nor cleaning until they <s>have learned their lesson</s> feel better⁩ is triggering the issue

You can try editing the enUS.csv file with notepad to remove the ⁨<s>...</s>⁩ part to see if that helps

[still frigate]

@woeful sun Here is a full zip of a crash report form that error if you want to see the other files.

[woeful sun]

Same crash as this one

Does it happen any and every time you click on a jail, or is it random?

[still frigate]

It seems to need to have been running a while.

[woeful sun]

This screenshot looks very suspicious -- what's with all the white squares where sprites are supposed to be?

[still frigate]

Oh, it messes up the UI.

[woeful sun]

I suspect a memory leak is causing a failed allocation (which is why the sprites would be missing too)

zxuiji also reported a memory leak

[still frigate]

At one time I postulated a memory leak as well. Here is a recent summary of my observations on triggering the problem:

I have a pretty reliable, but imprecise, way of testing for the Contamination Jail Bug. However, since one member said they only had the minimum required mods and it still triggered, how much good is it?

Regardless, here it is:

• Play for a significant(exact value uncertain) amount of time; multiple days at lest.
• SAVE FIRST (if you don't wanna loose all your hard work)
• click the contamination jail in the toolbar
• restart your game after the crash
  OR
• play another few days if it didn't crash and try again

Sometimes it happens on the jail itself but that is more random to trigger.

[woeful sun]

I suspect the memory leak prevents something from being initilized for drawing the strikethrough, and the code doesn't handle that and crashes,

compared to the sprites, where they just go white

[still frigate]

This is one of the other things it often does to the UI

[woeful sun]

double toolbar?

[still frigate]

Messed up at the top too

[woeful sun]

yea

[still frigate]

Looks liek a copy of the screen offset on a copy of the screen.

[woeful sun]

If it's not the base game, I would suspect Moddable Tool Groups

How long does it take to get it into a weird state?

[still frigate]

You can see the scramble in the text in the lower right.

[woeful sun]

and does it crash without getting into the weird state, or does it get weird, and then crash

[still frigate]

It gets weird the moment you mouseover if it is going to crash.

[still frigate]

Not 100% sure

[woeful sun]

How long from game start to weird/crash?

[still frigate]

I have yet to nail that one down.

Liek I said above, play a few days and mosueover.

[woeful sun]

but is is immediate, or minutes, hours, or days?

[still frigate]

in-game days usually.

I have made the change to the file you suggested. I'll load up and play for several days and see what happens.

[woeful sun]

but above you say "multiple days at lest"

[still frigate]

multiple in-game days would be more precise

[woeful sun]

yea, it was unclear if that's in-game days, or real world days

[still frigate]

Sorry.

[woeful sun]

It sounded like you have marathon game sessions (which some people do)

(or that a long session was required to trigger the bug)

[still frigate]

Oh, I do play for hours. Like I had a crash after a 4-hour (real world) session that I suspected woudl happen so I saved right before. And I was right.

I am fairly certain it is related to in-world amount of time.

Paused or not is irrelevant when you mouseover if it is going to trigger.

Edited text.

Now I'll run a few days and try to trigger. I am on game day 272.

[woeful sun]

I started a new game, immediately paused and reproduced it immediately

[still frigate]

Wow! I've not had that "luck" Right now I have moused over the placed jail and the menu several times.

Did you crash with the strikthrough text still in place?

[woeful sun]

yes

[still frigate]

Well, at least you have a local log of it. 🙂

[woeful sun]

yep

[still frigate]

At one point I unsubscribed and deleted all mods for the game, then started up with the minimal mod load to run it. I then would add one or two mods at a time, but since it was variable when it woudl trigger, I was never certain if the change was good or not.

[woeful sun]

okay, so 2nd time, I got the box to show once correctly, then crash on the 2nd mouse over

[still frigate]

I am 4 days in and it is not triggering.

But I have edited the file so if that is the fix, then it wont ever trigger (hopefully). I'll keep playing.

[woeful sun]

yea, if you've remove the ⁨<s>...</s>⁩, then I don't think it'll crash

[still frigate]

That is the hope I am clinging onto.

[woeful sun]

🙂

[still frigate]

day 272: start
day 288: not triggering
day 292: not triggering
day 308: not triggering

[lucid flame]

I'm not sure, that's the signal that a crash is coming. Just hovering over the jail, it gives that screen, then it crashes.

[woeful sun]

I'm 99.9% sure it's the ⁨<s>...</s>⁩ tags

[lucid flame]

Sorry, I don't know what that means.

[woeful sun]

I bet that there was a "performance optimization" to remove unused characters from the font, and the required character for strikeout and underline is now missing.

[still frigate]

@shell fiber even suggested it might be during one of our conversations, but was more focused on another mod reacting to those tags. (If my memory is correct.)

[woeful sun]

Any text that looks like this can cause the game to crash

Possibly also text like this

underline is okay

hmm, I can't reproduce by renaming a beaver to ⁨⁨Test<s>strike⁩⁩

but it could be something to do with the bottom bars

should be easy to test with a localization override

oohh, yea, crash in Folktails

This is enough to crash a vanilla game: ⁨⁨⁨```csv
ID,Text,Comment
Building.Carousel.Description,A wooden merry-go-round for <s>beavers of</s> all ages.,

[still frigate]

I'd call that all the proof we need.

[woeful sun]

reported to #🐛bugs message

I didn't bother to try and reproduce with no mods installed, but none of the active ones touch the bottom bar rendering at all

but I confirmed it was fine in update 7

[still frigate]

<whine>For the record, I hate intermittent bugs!</whine>

[naive tide]

So this was actually a bug in the vanilla game

[woeful sun]

yep

Probably a bug in Unity

[naive tide]

Not even a bug in Timberborn... an engine bug

so would this have to be reported upstream to the Unity devs?

[woeful sun]

That would be my guess

[woeful sun]

Did you experience this in earlier 1.0 versions, or not really because water beavers was not ready yet

[still frigate]

It was just recently released for 1.0.

I have been playtesting every piece to see what crashes. We're down to about 3 more items.

[woeful sun]

I used to keep a backup of every game version, but I haven't been doing that recently

[still frigate]

That is rather impressive.

[woeful sun]

I was running out of disk space

apparently you can use steamcmd to download old versions

[still frigate]

Major ones, but not the minor, right?

[woeful sun]

yea, the minor ones too

[naive tide]

Wait, does steamcmd let you grab the original kickstarter demo too?

(that was back in the before times, beavers)

We had just got to know you all~

[woeful sun]

I think Steam allows you to do that?

it has all the way back to ⁨old-0.0⁩

published <t:1638532704:S>

[west yarrow]

Im using the mod through steam, the abyssal reactor and addons for the abyss elevator are missing?

and the dam upgrades

[nova crescent]

@shell fiber Yup removing the strikethrough <s> </s> fixes the crash.

This is the entry.
Lapantouflemagic.ContaminatedJail.Description,"A jail for keeping contaminated beavers isolated from the rest of the population.
Jailed beavers will no longer need drinks, food, sleep, shelter nor cleaning until they have learned their lesson feel better.",792