Was the ussr good debate

[quick oyster]

Violently humble intentions, deviously godless deeds and sciences

[frosty spoke]

Elaborate

[pallid vigil]

Yes

Great meme material

[quick oyster]

Space competitions are nice to edge the grooves of competitors, but certain studies and directives to remove expressions and unnaturally attain quotas and means result in disasters and loss of genuine talents

[frosty spoke]

Say what you mean

[quick oyster]

space race good, the science that enabled the great leap forward bad
pros and cons in regards to a topic so vast the USSR is

such as aspiring socialist arts
that do no justice to a certain battle royale to the death island at the time of Stalin

[frosty spoke]

Rocket accidents?

[quick oyster]

space exploration and such technologies being new, accidents are definitely very prone

[frosty spoke]

Like how gargarin almost blew up?

[quick oyster]

so too are infrastructural and environmental accidents in the pursuit of outperforming rivals

[quick oyster]

just like rejected tank prototypes, some could become functioning powder kegs

[robust zinc]

Yes, end of debate

[robust zinc]

Even rockets today still have a high chance of exploding

It's an unreliable and inefficient technology to begin with

But the only one we got so far

[robust zinc]

Losing talents? Pffftttttt just arrest them

[keen wind]

Ussr was evil

[robust zinc]

No

Ussr just poor

Ez

No regime sees itself as evil

Only the others see it as such

Your wrongs are my right

Hmmmm that actually sounds good

[lost field]

Facts

[frosty spoke]

Define poor

[robust zinc]

Idk ask google

[frosty spoke]

Many ways to define poor

[heady jungle]

Do you mean like broke at times

[keen wind]

Gulags, extensive police state, and oppressive policies would beg to differ

[frosty spoke]

That's like only acknowledging slavery when talking about America

[frosty spoke]

If you can't define poor,then don't call it poor

[keen wind]

Usa got rid of slavery, USSR suppressed it's people for almost it's entire existence

USSR got rid of gulags yes, but they existed for a good chunk of the USSR's existence and they still didn't stop suppressing dissent

[frosty spoke]

What suppression

[keen wind]

One party state, no freedom of speech, no freedom to leave the country when they wanted etc

[frosty spoke]

Vs the "right" to be unhealthy,ignorant,and depressed?

Yeah I still prefer the union

[keen wind]

You can be all those in the USSR too lol

Those have nothing to do with the government

[frosty spoke]

They won't try to make you that way in the ussr

It's a very different take in the US@keen wind

I would know as I live here

[keen wind]

A scarcity of basic goods would definitely make you unhealthy, and the lack of political freedom and human rights would make you depressed

[quick oyster]

ahh yes, captivity, my favorite method of labor recruitment

[frosty spoke]

Didn't even happen within the last 30-40 years. Once again,it's like talking only talking about America to talk about operations Condor

[sonic charm]

Berlin Wall

[quick oyster]

https://tenor.com/view/red-alert-transformer-gif-13151051

Weaving the Iron Curtain be like

[sonic charm]

USSR bad

[south osprey]

honestly it was bad on so many leaves, one being Lenin goals was to overthrow the autocratic tzar and create and "communist utopia" however he and the Bolsheviks overthrew a dictatorship only to establish one themselves, not to mention large amounts of what they ended up doing lead to starvation, terror, corruption that helped to nearly drag the world into nuclear destruction.

[keen wind]

Scarcity of basic goods was most prominent in the latter half of the USSR, what you said is just not true

[keen wind]

^^^

[south osprey]

sorry but what does this, mean, are you pointing up or something?

[sonic charm]

None of the satellite states were allowed to leave the USSR

[keen wind]

It means I agree with you

[south osprey]

okay

[quick oyster]

extensive police state
fails to prevent an airplane landing in the Red Square sometime in the early 1980s

no wonder Gorbachev jumped the hardliners

make that the late 1980s

[keen wind]

Wouldn't surprise me if someone took a bribe to look the other way

[quick oyster]

or be in stress of even identifying a civilian plane and mistake it for bogeys and friends

[frosty spoke]

Just a border from what I know

[frosty spoke]

On the plus side,they had protection from western colonizers

[sonic charm]

No they didn’t lol they were kept as a buffer between Russia and the west

[frosty spoke]

Sure it sucks to be trapped,but if you're trapped in a good place,it's way better

[sonic charm]

A border that didn’t allow people across

[frosty spoke]

If they get attacked,Russia send vast aid,or attacks back.

[frosty spoke]

Crossing into a completely different economic system is no joke

[sonic charm]

Russia didn’t care for the satellite states which is why most of Eastern Europe is poor

[sonic charm]

What

[frosty spoke]

That doesn't even make any sense

They collapsed,and do did socialist economic support

[sonic charm]

I’m confused

[sonic charm]

No? They were poor whilst in the USSR

[frosty spoke]

Define poor

[sonic charm]

Not a lot of money

👍

[frosty spoke]

Imma have to stop you right there

Money is intangible

Human living condition is tangible

Major difference

[sonic charm]

dollar bill

[frosty spoke]

You can't consume currency like food or beverage

[sonic charm]

Money isn’t edible

Money isn’t a good

*food

[frosty spoke]

Neither can you build a house with it

[sonic charm]

If you have enough

Theoretically

[frosty spoke]

The use for money is intangible

[sonic charm]

Your could have da dollar bill hosue

[frosty spoke]

You can live in a place with no trading system and still have a happy and fulfilling life

[sonic charm]

USSR wasn’t one of those places

👍

[frosty spoke]

I've watched plenty of interviews where people walk around and ask ex soviets citizens how it was

[sonic charm]

Also what does intangibility have to do with how poor a country is

[frosty spoke]

The term poor is irrelevant by the standard of what you define as poor

[sonic charm]

How

[frosty spoke]

Like I said,you can live in a place with no money,and still live a fulfilling and happy,healthy life

[sonic charm]

Ok

[frosty spoke]

Poor or rich means nothing about how good the country is

[sonic charm]

Not really in the modern day

Within a modern society

[frosty spoke]

The USA Is rich as hell but its still a shithole

[frosty spoke]

Define modern

In this context I mean

[sonic charm]

What

[frosty spoke]

What is a "modern society"

[sonic charm]

Current society

[frosty spoke]

Explain what you mean by that

Which current society

[sonic charm]

All

[frosty spoke]

There's plenty

[sonic charm]

Wait lemme rephrase

How do I put this

ah whatever I can’t figure out how to put what’s in my brain into words

[frosty spoke]

No rush

[sonic charm]

Just go with all

Or most

[frosty spoke]

You gonna say that you need money in every country?

[sonic charm]

Ye

[frosty spoke]

How about, we use more definitive statistics

Like life expectancy,birth mortality rate,fertility rate,etc

[sonic charm]

Go on

[frosty spoke]

Because last time I checked the USSR is still better than many or most of western countries

[sonic charm]

[frosty spoke]

Especially considering the date/preformance ratio

It did collapse 30 years ago

You can look up tons of statistics on the union and it still looks good

Anyway,you can pull up those same statistics on those eastern European countries during and after the union

[sonic charm]

The first website I found on mortality rates shows that the USSR had a higher mortality rate during the 80s compared to the US 💀

[frosty spoke]

Mortality rate of what

[sonic charm]

People

What else would it be

[frosty spoke]

Birth mortality

[sonic charm]

Nah

Adults

[robust zinc]

Wat

[frosty spoke]

Depends on how they died

[sonic charm]

what

[frosty spoke]

Don't ask me look there yourself

[robust zinc]

Nah western is better obviously

[sonic charm]

No it just shows that per capita the USSR had a higher mortality rate than the US

[frosty spoke]

Source-trust me bro

[robust zinc]

Your source?

[sonic charm]

Cause of death doesn’t matter

[frosty spoke]

What is a "per capita mortality rate"

[sonic charm]

More deaths per capita

[frosty spoke]

What if you're a terrorist and they sent you to death row

[robust zinc]

?

[frosty spoke]

I'm encouraging you to look

[robust zinc]

I'm not a terrorist

[robust zinc]

Okay what stats

[frosty spoke]

Yeah this guy is trolling

[sonic charm]

Doesn’t matter, it’s still a death

[robust zinc]

You aren't even providing stats

[sonic charm]

True

[robust zinc]

Yeah idk either why cause is relevant

[frosty spoke]

Which is why it's a trash measurement

[sonic charm]

YOU BROUGHT IT UP AS AN ARGUMENT UH BRNFNRBRNRNJRN

you are actually trolling

[robust zinc]

Like I'd rather die from obesity in the US than starvation in the gulag

[frosty spoke]

-of how good a country is

[robust zinc]

Why is it trash?

[keen wind]

It was built to keep people in because everyone in east Germany was trying to escape to the west

[robust zinc]

Shouldn't a low mortality rate be a good indicator of a country's health infrastructure along with how nourished are its citizens?

[frosty spoke]

I never said anything about a mortality per capita,I said birth mortality last time I checked

[sonic charm]

Also you completely ignored my money point

[robust zinc]

Okay source?

[frosty spoke]

How so

[robust zinc]

Paladin thinks man can exist without money

Impossible

[frosty spoke]

Which sucks,but those same people are chasing absurd consumerism

[robust zinc]

What's absurd with consumerism?

People just getting what they want lol

[frosty spoke]

And if I don't respond to ecir,I blocked him

[sonic charm]

“The infant morality rate in the Soviet Union rose from 1971 to 1976 by one-third, and today is at least double and possibly triple the rate for the United States, according to a Census Bureau report written by two experts on the Soviet Union.” Excerpt from an article published in the 80’s

[keen wind]

Poor = bad living conditions

[robust zinc]

Lol just proves me right

[keen wind]

Or, they are trying to escape an oppressive police state

[frosty spoke]

Define poor

[robust zinc]

Bruh

[frosty spoke]

Define oppressive in the soviet context

[robust zinc]

Isn't that only a thing in the early ussr though?

[keen wind]

lacking sufficient money to live at a standard considered comfortable or normal in a society.

[robust zinc]

Stalin era

[frosty spoke]

If you scroll above,I've mentioned more Definitive statistics

[keen wind]

It got less after stalin died, but it was still present

[robust zinc]

Yeah that one though

[sonic charm]

Money is a definitive statistic

[frosty spoke]

Talking about Stalin is like talking about Hitler or nixon

[robust zinc]

Stalin

Let's talk about Stalin guys

[sonic charm]

Wasn’t a very nice man

[robust zinc]

True

[keen wind]

You're arguing that money doesn't matter?

[robust zinc]

Made people into bricklayers

[sonic charm]

Tru

[frosty spoke]

Living condition stats are the facts,and money is a suggestion

[robust zinc]

He's a commie, ofc he thinks like that

[frosty spoke]

Yes

[sonic charm]

Money correlates directly with living conditions

Money is also a fact

[frosty spoke]

Money does not tell the entire story

[robust zinc]

I bet he stole his device instead of paying for it 😭

[keen wind]

Money has and always existed, even in so called "communist" countries

[sonic charm]

It tells a large part

[robust zinc]

People often forget that the USSR has a currency

[frosty spoke]

Which is better,life expectancy,or income when determining health

[keen wind]

Its a big factor, less money = worse living conditions. More money = better living conditions

[sonic charm]

Both are important

[robust zinc]

It's pointless arguing with him

Toodaloos

[frosty spoke]

Money is like trying to hear if a gun sound healthy after putting the suppressor on

It could mean bad living conditions,or it could not

[keen wind]

What does that even mean?

[sonic charm]

What

[frosty spoke]

It's just not enough information

You can have no money,but that doesn't mean you don't eat

You could killed an animal and ate its meat

[sonic charm]

Speaking of life expectancy

[keen wind]

Money is still a big factor

[robust zinc]

Omg man doesn't know how money works

[frosty spoke]

It's a suggestion

A clue

[sonic charm]

“In 1970, life expectancy at birth in the Soviet Union and United States was fairly similar, at 69.3 and 70.8 years respectively; a difference of 1.5 years. As the decades progressed, however, this difference widened. While improvements in the recording of such statistics in the Soviet Union gave a more reliable picture of life expectancy across the region, especially in Central Asia and rural areas, the largest influence was due to the side-effects of deteriorating economic conditions. As lifestyles and medical care in the U.S. steadily improved, the decline in life expectancy the USSR was largely due to preventable causes, particularly alcoholism and accidental deaths among the male population. By 1985, life expectancy in the U.S. was 6.3 years higher than in the Soviet Union. “

So that point is null and void

[robust zinc]

I bet Paladin doesn't even do hunting nor foraging lmao

[sonic charm]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1248540/us-ussr-life-expectancy-at-birth-cold-war/

[sonic charm]

He lives in the US

He said earlier

[robust zinc]

The mere existence of his device is proof that he is a beneficiary of the conveniences that money can offer

The hypocrisy

[keen wind]

Just saying, phones might not even exist without capitalism

[frosty spoke]

Wrong

[robust zinc]

Well that's debatable

[sonic charm]

Most things wouldnt

Or atleast

[frosty spoke]

Like they litterally had phones in the soviet union

[sonic charm]

Most things wouldn’t exist without money

[robust zinc]

But Capitalism did allow for phones to be accessible to the consumer

[frosty spoke]

Innovation under capitalism is a false advertisement

[robust zinc]

Along with competition driving its improvement

[sonic charm]

No

[keen wind]

Communism in theory creates the perfect society, but in practice it never works

[sonic charm]

Space race

[robust zinc]

Proceeds to use discord

[frosty spoke]

They don't care about Innovation,they care about money

[sonic charm]

Just untrue

[robust zinc]

😂

They care about the money, that's why they innovate

[frosty spoke]

Which is why modern capitalist products are seen and unreliable and soviet equipment still works like tnew to this day

[sonic charm]

HAHAHA

[robust zinc]

😭

[sonic charm]

No it doesn’t lol

[robust zinc]

I can't anymore

[keen wind]

You're right, they do care about money, and innovation = money

[frosty spoke]

Why would they care about the betterment of humans when you can easily get the human to settle for much worse and walk away with more money

[robust zinc]

Bruh

[frosty spoke]

Only for a little bit

[robust zinc]

I think this guy hasn't heard of a boycott or competition yet

[frosty spoke]

And then future versions of that same product fall into the same trap

[sonic charm]

Because they care about people?

[keen wind]

No, because if a company doesn't innovate, then another company will and the first company will lose business. Also by innovating you make the new product better then the old product and make people want to buy the new product. Innovation = money

[sonic charm]

It’s called being a human

[frosty spoke]

If innovation was powering capitalism,then why is it a literal meme that apple products don't even improve, or that ford cars fall apart after the warranty

[frosty spoke]

No they don't

[sonic charm]

They’re not human?

[robust zinc]

Man literally thinks apple isn't improving

[sonic charm]

Damn

Can’t believe lizard people exist

[frosty spoke]

CEOs are statistically having a high chance of being a psychopath

[robust zinc]

Apple's M1 is arguably the best laptop chip there is

[sonic charm]

Still not all of them

[robust zinc]

And also doesn't suffer from thermal throttling

[frosty spoke]

Are you saying that Hitler and Stalin weren't human?

[keen wind]

Source? Lol

[frosty spoke]

Not where I hear it from,but https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackmccullough/2019/12/09/the-psychopathic-ceo/?sh=24a03490791e

If capitalists cared about humans,we would have had exploding Ford pintos

[robust zinc]

Bullshit

[frosty spoke]

If capitalists cared about humans,we would have the entire opioid crisis

Humans don't necessarily care about other humans

[frosty spoke]

Apple inc.

[sonic charm]

Whilst both were horrible people who I do not like, they did care about people

[frosty spoke]

People, as in strangers

[keen wind]

There's samsung

[sonic charm]

Ye

[keen wind]

And huawei has been gaining ground too

[sonic charm]

Aryans and Russians

[frosty spoke]

Little girl got cancer while working for them and they give the family 50k to compensate

[frosty spoke]

You don't seem like the type of guy to hype up the Chinese

[robust zinc]

Tbh I feel bad that Huawei got that google ban

[frosty spoke]

Like there was hyper toxic chemicals In the samsung plant

[robust zinc]

Their devices are really solid

I own a huawei

Still going strong after 4 years

[keen wind]

I'm not, I'm just saying there are other companies as you seem to keep implying that Apple is the only one

[frosty spoke]

You were the guy who said "innovation=equals money"

[keen wind]

Source?

[sonic charm]

Weren’t we talking about whether the USSR was good or not?

[frosty spoke]

https://youtu.be/geq0arY6y0o

[frosty spoke]

Yeah,and part of that is comparing other (rival) countries

[robust zinc]

Jake Tran lmao

[sonic charm]

Fair, but this isn’t really comparison at this point

We aren’t comparing anything

[frosty spoke]

:/

[keen wind]

@frosty spoke just curious, if the USSR was so good, why did it and it's satellite states collapse?

[sonic charm]

If it was so good, why did Poland blackmail its way into NATO?

[keen wind]

Why did China create special economic zones?

[frosty spoke]

Sabotage

[sonic charm]

How so?

Who by?

[frosty spoke]

1. Gorbachev and yeltsin

[sonic charm]

Gorbachev was going to keep the Union

[frosty spoke]

2. A horrible,violent,un democratic,coup

[sonic charm]

Wasn’t violent

[frosty spoke]

He literally introduced anti Communist policy

[sonic charm]

Yea, but he was going to keep the Union

The union didn’t have to be communist

[frosty spoke]

They literally gunned down protesters and genocided the remaining soviet politicians by blowing up their building

[sonic charm]

That was the soviets

Well

[frosty spoke]

Then russia would be in the same shit hole

[sonic charm]

The gunning down civilians

[sonic charm]

How

[frosty spoke]

No,I'm talking about the post union war

[sonic charm]

I’m talking about the breakdown of the Union

[frosty spoke]

Because capitalism turned the USSR into what is essentially a miniature America

[sonic charm]

capitalism turned America into America but small?

[frosty spoke]

Consistently Agressive and imperialist and capitalist like America

Oops

My bad lemme fix that

[sonic charm]

👍

How is Russia a miniature america?

I’m pretty sur e it’s bigger

[frosty spoke]

In terms of success in endeavors

[sonic charm]

So it’s successful?

That sounds good

[frosty spoke]

What would be

[keen wind]

Forgets the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan

[hybrid iris]

If it was succesfull it would still exist

[sonic charm]

Russia exists

Probably not for long though

Due to events I cannot talk about due to rule 3

[frosty spoke]

Forgets the Vietnam War
Forgets the Korean War
Forgets the Georgian War
Forgets the Ukraine war

[sonic charm]

Georgian and Ukrainian war are both Soviet interventions

Correction: Russian interventions

[frosty spoke]

There's a reason you can only name 1-3 American style colonialist "intervention" the USSR had pulled

[sonic charm]

You named 2

[hybrid iris]

Ussr was just russian empire under communist disguise which might have made the conditions even worse

[sonic charm]

What

[frosty spoke]

It's because it violates the whole Marxist leninist theory

[hybrid iris]

It still was hella imperialistic

[sonic charm]

Ignoring my point btw

[frosty spoke]

Which point

[hybrid iris]

And from certain moment was run by one man in power

[frosty spoke]

Because of which wars

[hybrid iris]

Huh

Did you really just ask mebthis question

[frosty spoke]

Yeah like literally evey democracy ever

[sonic charm]

You named 2 “American style colonialist interventions” that america did

[hybrid iris]

No

[sonic charm]

That’s not how democracy works lol

[hybrid iris]

Not all democracies have one man with absolute power

[frosty spoke]

And 2 other capitalist Russia

[frosty spoke]

The USSR has had elections regularly

[sonic charm]

Russia is run by Putin who wants Russia to be like the USSR again

[hybrid iris]

These elections were a joke

[frosty spoke]

If he did he would have reverted back to socialism a long ass time ago

[hybrid iris]

Just like todays korea or china

[frosty spoke]

Source?

Prove they were rigged

[hybrid iris]

Trust me bro

But seriousley

[frosty spoke]

Dig up some false soviet elections

It doesn't matter if the guy has as much power as castro,you got to vote for him

[frosty spoke]

Or the other guy obviously

[hybrid iris]

Than why wasnt stalin overtrown

I admit i dont really have any sources because it always seemd obvious to me

[frosty spoke]

Omg I'm tired of bros talking about Stalin

Because he was a dictator

It's like:what if I talked about why Hitler wasn't overthrown in capitalist Germany

[sonic charm]

That’s Fascist Germany not capitalist

[frosty spoke]

Both were present

[sonic charm]

I mean, it would be hard to do so

[hybrid iris]

Ussr easnt good because it certainly rigged the elections in eastern europe

[frosty spoke]

Who's gonna say no to putin in his KGB face

[sonic charm]

Ok, that doesn’t make Germany capitalist all of a sudden. It was Fascist first and foremost

[hybrid iris]

It annexed baltic states belaruse ukraine invaded finland

[sonic charm]

Russian Citizens?

[hybrid iris]

Holodomor

[frosty spoke]

If a man is half Caucasian and and half African he is easily both

[trim blade]

Falkturm#3955 has been warned

Reason: Mass emoji

[frosty spoke]

No.

Its a metaphor

[sonic charm]

Germany wasn’t half fascist half capitalist💀

[hybrid iris]

It made a pact with hitler to invade poland

[sonic charm]

You have to be trolling

[hybrid iris]

Berlin war

[frosty spoke]

The economic system of nazi Germany was capitalism

[hybrid iris]

Fun fact faschizm is form of communism, or socialism at least

[frosty spoke]

That's literally factually wrong

[sonic charm]

That doesn’t make the country capitalist

[hybrid iris]

Prove me wrong

[sonic charm]

It was fascist

[hybrid iris]

The nazi party was national socialist wha do you have to say about that

[frosty spoke]

In dummy terms,
Commusim love for all
Fascism love for some

[hybrid iris]

Communism love for all?

Dont make me laugh

[frosty spoke]

Then why did they literally have a whole round up campfire where they chucked socialist books into the fire

[hybrid iris]

Communism was literally described as war of classes

[hybrid iris]

Cause they were idiots

[frosty spoke]

That's why I put it in oversimplified terms because if I had to define both in depth,I would die of old age

[frosty spoke]

Read the entire rest of the script

[sonic charm]

They chucked books besides socialist works, but yes a lot of socialist books were burned

[hybrid iris]

Ok lets stop for a moment

[frosty spoke]

Hitler called it national zocialist to confuse people

[hybrid iris]

Its stops looking like a debate for me

And more like trying to call each other out

Sorry if i was rude

[frosty spoke]

I really do not mind insults

[hybrid iris]

So what are your arguments that ussr was good?

[frosty spoke]

Anyway in Communist theory it's literally that all races are equal

[hybrid iris]

It doesnt mean that ussr was good but ok

[frosty spoke]

From my opinion I think it was good because.

1. Protected countries from becoming colonized
2. Made out of this world contributions to technology
3. Had really good living standards and was socially ahead of its time

[frosty spoke]

Was explaining why fascism did not stem from socialism

[hybrid iris]

It had bad living standards, and as i said previousley it had satelite states like eastern europe where the elections were 100percent rigged

[sonic charm]

1. Colonised nations
2. Semi-fair point
3. They did not have good living conditions

None of the satellite states wanted to be in the USSR

[frosty spoke]

Having a modest life is not poverty and you still have to prove the election fraud

[sonic charm]

Which is why they rebelled

Multiple times

And why most of them are in NATO now

[hybrid iris]

The elections were just rigged in eastern europe

There is no discussion around it

[sonic charm]

The 2nd one is fair but the same could be said about most European countries and the US

[hybrid iris]

Its just common fact

[sonic charm]

And the 3rd point is just wrong

[frosty spoke]

https://youtu.be/ui11x8vLQFIhttps://youtu.be/ui11x8vLQFI

https://youtu.be/PiAHtm9yEu4

[sonic charm]

Note that they’re Russian

Not from the satellite states

[frosty spoke]

https://youtu.be/ui11x8vLQFI

[sonic charm]

Also all Russian

[frosty spoke]

What are "satellite states"

[keen wind]

North Korea started the Korean war and the last 2 have nothing to do with the US besides them sending military aid

[sonic charm]

Did you even take history 💀

[hybrid iris]

Basically entire eastern and half of central europe

Like poland

[keen wind]

a political term for a country that is formally independent, but under heavy political and economic influence or control by another country

[hybrid iris]

Stalin himself said that trying to make poland communist is like giving cow a saddle

And it was a response to some crackheads proposing to make poland another socialist republic of ussr

[frosty spoke]

https://youtu.be/-8DjwfLH6RY

[frosty spoke]

So you can talk about like 14 soviet leaders but you only care about stalin

[hybrid iris]

Crackhead from poland

[keen wind]

I'm sorry, but anyone who has studied history knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that North Korea started the Korean war, the US went to defend South Korea

[hybrid iris]

Some idiot actually proposed it

[frosty spoke]

I know you ain't finished the video yet@keen wind

Keep watching

[hybrid iris]

Can you tell me whet soviet leaders ussr had?

I can recall lenin stalin trotsky gorbachev and thats about it

[frosty spoke]

Lenin,Gorbachev,krushchev,trotsky,
And like 10 others who I can't name because they aren't as relevant

I mean you can always ask google

[hybrid iris]

Trotsky eas all about invading the rest of europe and spreading communism that way if im not wrong

But he got oofed by stalin who wanted to get rid of him since he was a thread to him

Indirectly of course

[frosty spoke]

Yeah buy that guy served like 90 years ago

[hybrid iris]

Its not like atalin himself shot him

[frosty spoke]

Look bro everyone was crazy back then

It's not a soviet specific thing

[hybrid iris]

I wonder how did ussr ensure that everyone actually works

I mean if everyone is paid the same no matter whether you care or not than why should i care

[frosty spoke]

They made sure the people were secured financially with work

[frosty spoke]

Just for the sake of doing good

[hybrid iris]

You dont get it how did they made sure people actually worked

[frosty spoke]

And doing what's on their capacity

[hybrid iris]

Instead of doing nothing and still getting paid

[frosty spoke]

That's not how that worked

"You Work for me I Work for you"

There was no welfare queens

[hybrid iris]

Or on the other hand when there wasnt enough work to be given where would they put unemployed people if there is no place for work

[frosty spoke]

There's always place for work

It could be in entertainment,or adding redundancy where it counts

[hybrid iris]

You know here in poland there was a saying during communist times

[frosty spoke]

I don't need sayings I need stats

[robust zinc]

He's a commie, it's difficult to convince him otherwise

[hybrid iris]

Czy się stoi czy się leży 1500 się należy

[keen wind]

1. The video claims south korea attacked north korea, this is not true
2. The video claims that the US could have prevented the war by saying they would defend south korea, even if this was the case it does not mean the US caused the war.

[hybrid iris]

Can you imagine bananas being rare?

[keen wind]

Yeah. I'm going to nope out of here, I've got better things to do

[robust zinc]

He's just here to proselytise people into communism

[hybrid iris]

My teacher told me once how they bought a banana and didnt know what to do with it since its next to impossible to get during these times

[heady jungle]

I do not know how this is relevant to the topic at hand

[frosty spoke]

The video claims that the cia backed south Korean attacks and then north Korea came back at em and they won and then the US just wanted to protect businesses interests

[heady jungle]

Well

USA needed allies in asia

And south korea was a good choice

But the video is wrong

[robust zinc]

Also paladin blocked me bruh

[heady jungle]

The north koreans swung first

[hybrid iris]

Gulags having worse conditions than german camps doesnt help ussrs reputation

[frosty spoke]

SK fucked itself over in secret attacks and then got folded in the counted invasion

[hybrid iris]

Jus instead of racial enemies they staffed it with political ones

[frosty spoke]

You know how fast they discontinued the gulag?

[hybrid iris]

Discontinued?

Can you translate that word for me

Englis is not my native tongue

[heady jungle]

Both koreas were fked over

[frosty spoke]

Discontinued means to cancel the usage of an asset

[hybrid iris]

Than Gulags still exist to this days if im not wrong

[heady jungle]

Stop or shut down

[heady jungle]

No, the gulags are no more

[frosty spoke]

Maybe after the union was canceled

[robust zinc]

Basically stop

[frosty spoke]

Where putin can hide his political prisoners

[heady jungle]

The camps are still there, but nobody is running it

[hybrid iris]

Regular prisons i guess

[heady jungle]

Labor camps

Gulags are basically labor camps but harsher

[hybrid iris]

I know

[heady jungle]

They aren’t regular prisons

[robust zinc]

He's referring to Russia's prisons

[hybrid iris]

I heard multiple stories aout them.
Mainly from polish pow after failed september campaign

September right?

What month did ww2 start?

[robust zinc]

September

[heady jungle]

September 1939

[hybrid iris]

Right after aeptember campaign

[silent orbit]

You get same sentiment in Italy but for Mussolini, it doesn't make the USSR good, plus these seem to be Russians, no Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, etc so it isn't telling the full story

You can't look at a state that violenty deported or murdered ethnic minorites (in absolutely horrid conditions), sided with the germans until '41, sent tanks to crush democracy-seaking protests and violently repressed any opposing political opponents and say it was a force of "good"

[frosty spoke]

Cancel culture.
Also look up the Chilean 9/11

And Atleast by our standards,it's still good

[silent orbit]

the repression of the prague spring = bad is cancel culture?

[frosty spoke]

What happened before 1956 n the SU
Is basically irrelevant to represent the entire SU

It's like talking about the American slave trade

[silent orbit]

well the political repression didn't end with Stalin i'll tell you that much

[frosty spoke]

It's not definitive of modern America

[silent orbit]

the soviet union lasted from 1917 to 1991, seems like a big bit

[frosty spoke]

So what

Go relevant

[silent orbit]

the debate is if the soviet union was good, we can at least agree that the first 35 years of it were not

[frosty spoke]

At that time

1. Humanity was still figuring out how to operate
2. People were crazy back then

[silent orbit]

That's a very bad way to look at history

[frosty spoke]

I too hate most of the early soviet leaders

[silent orbit]

ok, so from when do when do you consider the union to be good?

[frosty spoke]

1960-1991

Around that

[silent orbit]

ok

[frosty spoke]

Lemme guess,you're going to dig up a one-off tragedy that happened during those years

[silent orbit]

well you still have political repression, repression of religious and ethnic minorities, the police state, economic instability, poor living conditions and a severe lack of democracy and individual freedoms

[silent orbit]

you guessed wrong

[frosty spoke]

I'm going to need you explain why you came to all of those conclusions

[silent orbit]

these aren't conclusions, they are events

[frosty spoke]

Then break down which events cane to those answers

Basically, explain the claims

[silent orbit]

you want me to list the political opponents murdered by the KGB?

because that's going to be a long list

[frosty spoke]

Name them and why they were targeted

+dates

[silent orbit]

you have a wonderful list on wikipedia (which obviously isn't perfect but i don't really want to cite independent sources for hundreds of different people

As for the repression of religious and ethnic minorities there were several attempts at "Russification" by Krutchev and Brezhnev in notably Ukraine and several attacks on religious symbols, figures and etc

[frosty spoke]

Can you provide full names?

[silent orbit]

i can give you a few

[frosty spoke]

Nah,krutchev and Brezhnev

I'm sure those are common names

[silent orbit]

Nikita and leonid? is that what you are asking? I don't get your question

[frosty spoke]

The full names of those guys

[silent orbit]

ok then i just did

have you ever been to the soviet union or a puppet state?

have you ever talked or listened to a dissident?

[frosty spoke]

@silent orbit have you?

[frosty spoke]

Never heard of the word

[silent orbit]

I have yes

[frosty spoke]

Which

[silent orbit]

Romania

[frosty spoke]

During?

[silent orbit]

ceausescu

[frosty spoke]

?

[silent orbit]

Nicolae Ceaușescu

[frosty spoke]

Can you tell me when you were in Romania

[silent orbit]

i was young but i remember going to the mountains, if you give me a day or two i could find the name

So, you never saw what soviet misery looked like and you never talked to someone who lived under it

why should i listen to you rather than someone who actually lived under the regime?

[frosty spoke]

By our standard of governments

I mean you're the one who went out of your way to talk In here

How would I know if the aushwitz death camp was bad until I talked to a survivor?

[silent orbit]

that's not what i said, i said that i'd rather take the testimony of someone who was a victim in the camp than someone who has no connection to it

[frosty spoke]

Then go away

Shoo

Scram

[silent orbit]

because i don't take your word as fact?

[frosty spoke]

Because you don't want to hear people's takes on history if they haven't had close experience

Why are you even in the server,let alone on the internet

[silent orbit]

I heard it, i'm telling you it's wrong

[silent orbit]

why do you defend a tyrannical regime?

like there's a reason why once the union fell nearly every post soviet state turned to some form of liberal democracy

[frosty spoke]

Because I think that

1. Not tyrannical by modern standards
2. Better than the governments we have now

[frosty spoke]

No,it fell In a violent,undemocratic coup

[silent orbit]

Modern day estonians for example have a way better life than in the Union

[frosty spoke]

Seeing how long vlad has been in office,I wouldn't necessarily say democratic

[silent orbit]

I'm talking about what the puppet states did after leaving, not why they left

[silent orbit]

MOST

[frosty spoke]

1. Isn't a feat,
2. Explain why

[silent orbit]

Better living standards, better healthcare, more purchasing power, freedom of expression and of the press, a true democracy, economic growth

[frosty spoke]

Because they didn't get the best attention under the union and
2.they would get invaded if they went back to socialism

[frosty spoke]

Pull out some stats

[silent orbit]

and you can't really talk about democracy in statistics

[frosty spoke]

Hold up,the soviet union was taken away,how do you expect to compete from the grave

[silent orbit]

You can see a clear stagnation of the life expectancy

[silent orbit]

unlike in democracies were you see a steady growth

we live way better in our modern governments and have way more political freedom than under this dead empire

[frosty spoke]

During what times

[silent orbit]

look at the bloody thing

[frosty spoke]

Thought you meant the soviet union

As technology advances,the faster it advances

[silent orbit]

soviet citizens lived shorter lives than the ones living on the other side of the wall

[frosty spoke]

Soviet citizens in what country

[silent orbit]

every

i mean have you ever looked at some stats?

[frosty spoke]

Have you considered that the soviet union had existed for less than a century

[silent orbit]

does that justify mass killings?

does that justify a total absence of individual rights?

[frosty spoke]

Don't change topics

You were talking about life expectancy

[silent orbit]

i'm talking about how the soviet union sucked and sucked even more for the minorities in it

and how no decent human being should claim that it was better than our living standards today

[frosty spoke]

You can't have a gotcha moment of you refuse to specify what you're talking about

[silent orbit]

it's not a gotcha moment

[frosty spoke]

I'm not going to respond to the mass killing,the minority opression,or the low individual rights claims if you don't talk about why you said those things

[frosty spoke]

Then don't act like it

[silent orbit]

i didn't

[frosty spoke]

Does that justify the the genocidal acts of the west

[silent orbit]

When did west germany do a genocide?

like the big majority of genocides done by "the west" were also before stalin's death

[frosty spoke]

See that feeling? It's the feeling of someone in the argument making serious claims without elaborating

[silent orbit]

the problem is, it isn't a serious claim

[frosty spoke]

Then tell me where you got all those claims from

About the mass killing,About the minority opression,ETC

[silent orbit]

i already gave you examples

like the Russoffication of, notably Ukraine,

[frosty spoke]

TELL ME WHERE THE LINK IS IN EXAMPLES

[frosty spoke]

When

[frosty spoke]

Tell me more

[silent orbit]

i already told you

Nikita and Leonid

[frosty spoke]

I could only find the doctrine of leonid

Nothing else

[silent orbit]

seems like you didn't look around enough

[frosty spoke]

Give me a specific search to preform

[silent orbit]

the Russification of Ukraine during the soviet era

and how he pushed for the decline of the Ukrainian language, national identity and culture

[frosty spoke]

From what I see,Russia has been doing this to Ukraine since the big bang

[silent orbit]

so it justifies it?

[frosty spoke]

No

[silent orbit]

there

[frosty spoke]

You forget that I said by our modern standards

[silent orbit]

yeah and by our modern standards it's still a very uncool thing to do

especially when compared to liberal democracies

[frosty spoke]

Yeah what about when all the "liberal democracies" came together to obliterate Yugoslavia with bombs?

[silent orbit]

there's this thing called the bosnian genocide

[frosty spoke]

What about when Isreal constantly harassed Palestine by constantly attacking residential areas

[silent orbit]

you're singling out one thing and generalising it

[frosty spoke]

You're the one who mentioned liberal democracies and I mentioned other governments as a factor

[frosty spoke]

Oh yeah stop a genocide by starting another genocide

What about what Saudi Arabia and what they do to yemen

You may think I'm pointing out random atrocities,but you just have to reflect on the countries I'm referencing

[silent orbit]

bombing is a genocide?

[silent orbit]

Saudi Arabia isn't a liberal democracy...

[frosty spoke]

Yeah if you bomb residential areas it is

[silent orbit]

So the germans are victims of genocide?

(during ww2)

[frosty spoke]

Who are they friends with though?;who's enabling this

[frosty spoke]

The citizens,yes

[silent orbit]

And that (depending on the situation) is a war crime, not a genocide

[silent orbit]

no it wasn't, a genocide is aimed at erasing a culture or a religion from the face of the earth

[frosty spoke]

Yeah I didn't rape an 5 year old girl,I raped a 10 year old girl

[silent orbit]

in 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group."

That isn't bombing civilins

[frosty spoke]

There's alot of definitions of genocide

[silent orbit]

Can't talk about modern politics but let's just say things are changing

[silent orbit]

This one is the one that will land you in the hague

[frosty spoke]

The one that I used is "killing and destroying lots of stuff to cause serious damage to a group"

[silent orbit]

Intervention in the yugoslav wars weren't aimed at destroying serbia

[silent orbit]

But that isn't the one that will land you in the hague

[frosty spoke]

Where was the U.N during the Vietnam War

[sonic charm]

Soviet invasion of Afghanistan

[frosty spoke]

Point is,don't ever trust the U.N to define genocide or war crimes

[frosty spoke]

What is the Hague

[silent orbit]

The US intervened to support the south vietnamese government, not to eradicate vietnamese culture

[silent orbit]

international court

[frosty spoke]

Yeah,they wanted to eradicate north Vietnam entirely

[sonic charm]

No

[silent orbit]

no...

[sonic charm]

They wanted a democratic government that was pro us instead of a pro soviet communist government

[silent orbit]

They wanted the south to win

[silent orbit]

well "democratic" but yeah

[sonic charm]

Ye

Point is they didn’t want to kill all the north Vietnamese

[frosty spoke]

Then why didn't they pull out after the massacre? Why didn't they stop when they knew for certain they couldn't stop the war crimes

[frosty spoke]

That was a typo

I mean the country

[silent orbit]

vietnam? bosnia?

[frosty spoke]

If they weren't put under political pressure,they would have sent the north Vietnamese back ro the French days

[silent orbit]

wrong again, they wanted the south to win, same situation as in North Korea, South Korea

[frosty spoke]

That was another reason,not the full reason

[sonic charm]

They wanted to destroy the northern Vietnamese land?

[silent orbit]

Was south Korea put back under japan?...

[frosty spoke]

Yeah

[silent orbit]

eradicating vietnamese culture surely wasn't one

[silent orbit]

https://tenor.com/view/issou-drole-marrant-rire-rigoler-gif-6142116

[frosty spoke]

Napalm bombs,agent orange. .

[silent orbit]

That's a war crime, not a genocide

[frosty spoke]

Are you even paying attention???

[frosty spoke]

He asked

[sonic charm]

They didn’t do that just for the sake of it

[frosty spoke]

If they did that the American businesses would have easy access to slave labor

[silent orbit]

you think the USA would of enslaved the north vietnamese?

[sonic charm]

They did it to aid troops on the ground by allowing more conventional tactics to be used

[frosty spoke]

USA corporations would

[sonic charm]

In order to help the south win

[heady jungle]

I mean american business goes worldwide for cheap labor

[silent orbit]

Is that what happened in south korea?

[silent orbit]

Sure but it's not slavery

[heady jungle]

That’s what they want, less expenses more profit

[frosty spoke]

South korea? I've heard about them using South Korean sweat shops,but no not then

[frosty spoke]

Cheap as in 1 dollar/hour

Wage slavery

[silent orbit]

You think south korea has a sweatshop economy?

[frosty spoke]

Anyway I gotta eat because I have a life outside discord

[frosty spoke]

I said no already

[silent orbit]

You have to take into account purchasing power

[frosty spoke]

In today's money

[silent orbit]

You wouldn't be able to eat under the soviet union

[silent orbit]

again, purchasing power... not inflation

[frosty spoke]

Bro what is you talking about anymore

[frosty spoke]

If they had the purchasing power it wouldn't be considered a sweat shop

[silent orbit]

you don't know what you're talking about...

[frosty spoke]

Elaborate

[hybrid iris]

What the fuck did you just said

What the fuck is wrong with you

[robust zinc]

He doesn't know about interviews

Probably thinks everything is staged

[frosty spoke]

I don't think you understood what I meant at all

He asked "why should i listen to someone with no connection"@hybrid iris

[keen wind]

This conversation makes me lose brain cells

[daring elk]

fr

[broken lodge]

alright my opinion is it had good intentions in the start and it was better in human rights than imperial russia, which is not that high of a bar in the first place

after 1924 i don't know enough until 1936

but i know that they invaded several countries, regions and cities that declared independence during the civil war after they won against the white army, including the forces that fought with them during the civil war like anarchist ukraine (i think anarchist ukraine did?)

also contributing a massive amount of soldiers and resources to the allied war effort and winning ww2 was pretty based i think

[keen wind]

They also subjugated the countries they occupied during ww2

[broken lodge]

I don't disagree but i still think that there were worse crimes committed in the 4 years of axis occupation in eastern europe then the 40 years of whatever you want to call it combined

[silent orbit]

I'm not your economics teacher

[vital rune]

The ussr failed (in my opinion) to properly execute communism and a major part of this is corruption.

[silent orbit]

and very very bad leadership

[frosty spoke]

I don't know what you meant by I don't know.

[frosty spoke]

My opinion is almost the opposite

[paper owl]

Without the USSR the Germans might have not been defeated in WW2, without the USSR Stealth tech will not have been invented because a soviet scientist invented that. So it was good in my opinion that they existed

[silent orbit]

A hypothetical Russian empire (or republic) could of still pushed them back or at least hold them off for an allied invasion

Also we do not know how a world without a big scary communist power would be

[frosty spoke]

It's what we're living in right now.

[silent orbit]

I was talking about the 1920s and 30s... plus look east

[frosty spoke]

Wdym look east

[silent orbit]

🇨🇳

[frosty spoke]

China just isn't as powerful at the USSR was unfortunately

[silent orbit]

Unfortunately?

[frosty spoke]

Yes

[silent orbit]

you complain about modern life and then say that...

[robust zinc]

He's a communist saying stupid shit lol

[silent orbit]

good point

[broken lodge]

explain why

[frosty spoke]

What's your point?

@broken lodge I think the ussr was in it's prime near the end

[silent orbit]

You complained about modern living conditions then wish that one of the most horrid regimes of the 21st century was more powerful

seems a bit hypocritical to me

[frosty spoke]

You actually trust western reporting to be sincere about its enemy? You've gone too far,and it's beside the point anyway.

[silent orbit]

I can say the exact same thing about you.

[frosty spoke]

In what way?

[silent orbit]

You actually trust autocrats reporting to be sincere about its enemy?

[frosty spoke]

Auto crats from where

[silent orbit]

well you seem to enjoy any regime with enough red in it's flag

[frosty spoke]

I get the feeling that you have malicious intent. I always find myself questioning your statements even more than the logic,and then when I intercept what you mean,you just change topic,accuse me,and try to set up for a gotcha moment

[silent orbit]

You said autocrats from where, i responded with autocrats from pseudocommunist regimes

nobody changed subject

[frosty spoke]

Can you quote me to prove I trusted an autocrat?+

[silent orbit]

well it's post 2012 so i cannot

[frosty spoke]

Let's not debate China like I said

[silent orbit]

there's nothing to debate about

China IS a violent authoritarian regime

that isn't an opinion

yet you still support it because "usa bad"

[frosty spoke]

1.off topic
2.source?
3.any thing can be an opinion
4.there you go trying to accuse me
5.by that logic I can say USA is factually horrid,but I won't be like you

[silent orbit]

1. No it isn't
2. Look around
3. It literally is a violent authoritarian regime
4. You said you wished the PRC was more powerful
5. Yeah the USA did some pretty despicable things, doesn't justify what the PRC does

[frosty spoke]

2.look around where
3.SOURCE?
4.i couldn't explain why
5. SOURCE

[keen wind]

https://tenor.com/view/choujeki-eating-popcorn-gif-14739088

[silent orbit]

2. Great leap forward, cultural revolution, tiananmen square, more modern stuff i can't talk about
3. Try voicing any opinion in the PRC that doesn't follow the main narrative and you'll see where it lands you
4. You don't need to, it's still despicable
5. You don't think the USA did some despicable stuff?

[silent orbit]

indeed

[frosty spoke]

I mean source as in articles,stats,photos

[frosty spoke]

I think you missed the point

[silent orbit]

Again, i cannot due to the pre 2012 rule

[frosty spoke]

Omg bruh

THEN DONT TALK ABOUT IT!@silent orbit

[silent orbit]

then don't support it

[keen wind]

https://www.britannica.com/event/Great-Leap-Forward

"about 20 million people were estimated to have died of starvation between 1959 and 1962"

[frosty spoke]

@silent orbit then don't oppose it

[silent orbit]

It's not the moral thing to do

[frosty spoke]

It's still post 2012 to oppose China like this

[silent orbit]

No it isn't, the PRC has a long history of killing people

[keen wind]

If he can't oppose it, then you shouldn't be able to support it

[frosty spoke]

@silent orbit how far back you willing to count?

[frosty spoke]

Not here then. That's OK

[silent orbit]

well the civil war ended in 1949 so from there to 2012

[broken lodge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/971487708432199780/1048347587440283698/caption_16.gif

[frosty spoke]

They say leftists push cancel culture....

[silent orbit]

what tf are you on about?

[keen wind]

[silent orbit]

also what is a "leftist", it's such a vast group

[keen wind]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/11/the-cultural-revolution-50-years-on-all-you-need-to-know-about-chinas-political-convulsion

https://www.britannica.com/event/Tiananmen-Square-incident

"The government’s count of those killed was 241 (including soldiers), with some 7,000 wounded; most other estimates have put the death toll much higher"

[robust zinc]

Lol there is never convincing this guy

Man instantly blocked me when I told him the truth

Apparently he believes in the Soviet cause because his grandpa loves telling him stories about it

He despises anything west and staunchly believes society can function without the use of money while at the same time taking full advantage of the so called exploitative capitalist products of profit to proselytize people into all things commie

It's pretty simple and straightforward that the Soviets lost the cold war, funnier is the fact that the Soviets and the PRC also uses money bruh

Man doesn't exactly know what he believes in other than the thing that he opposes all things western

[silent orbit]

Step one: starts a discussion about the USSR
Step two: surprised everyone disagrees
Step three: blocks opposing voices
Step four: liberals owned

[frosty spoke]

Anything from that long ago is basically irrelevant to judge that same person you've talking about

@robust zinc I blocked you because you were obsessed with trying to insult me and mock me and you never actually paid attention to the argument. You aren't debating,you're just taking up the personality of the annoying little cousin at the family reunion that your parents forced you to go to

[robust zinc]

Your claims still are dubious and your critique of modern society is based on cherry picked arguments

[frosty spoke]

Where was this energy when you were trying to say I was "just x" or "just y"?

[robust zinc]

What

[frosty spoke]

Exactly,now leave this forum

To hell with your goofy ass reaction image

[silent orbit]

To hell with your blind supporting of violent regimes

[frosty spoke]

To hell with your blind supporting of violent regimes

[silent orbit]

Ah yes the violent regime of... liberal democracies

[robust zinc]

Free speech amirite

[frosty spoke]

Ah yes the violent regime of...socialist economic systems

[robust zinc]

Just why exactly do you think that western society is that flawed compared to your communist alternatives?

[robust zinc]

Ah yes labor camps

It sure must be nice when the state seizes your private property just because you're a bourgeoise

[silent orbit]

Never saw the swiss driving tanks into protesters

[frosty spoke]

Never saw the soviets commit a massacre and keep the war going

[robust zinc]

dafuq

You denying holodomor and the gulag concentration camps?

Or how they invaded czechoslovakia when they tried to break away

[frosty spoke]

Never saw the soviets use country destroying bio weapons to help their troops see in the enemy's terrain

[frosty spoke]

Never seen the soviets stay in a pointless,profit driven war (especially not to end up losing)

[robust zinc]

Man, wars are never profitable

Just why exactly is expending equipment a profitable venture

They have little relevance to everyday civilian life

And don't act like the Sovets or the Chinese didn't produce vast amounts of military equipment either

Most of the minuses you are pointing about the west are largely restricted only to their military ventures

Rarely do those penetrate the everyday life of its citizens

Unlike how the Soviets managed to create fear inherent in their society with just how much the NKVD penetrates into their lives

[frosty spoke]

Lockheed Martin and Colt would like to disagree

[robust zinc]

Ah yes because it's only two corporations

Dude wars are entirely political in nature, rarely are they driven out of profit

Lockheed Martin is not the one that decides if the US should go to war

And plus, in the west military equipment is only produced when there is a necessary demand for it

So that defense budget would not eat up the country's economy unnecessarily

It's one of the flaws too with the US military

Its industry is not prepared for war because right now, there isn't much of a need for it

Unlike in communist regimes where the state heavily supervises industrial output so that it has the appropriate machinery to shift into a war setting instantly

Even if that means buying and keeping a machine that won't be used for the next 20 years

Why do you always think that profits are bad?

Economies aren't a zero sum game where if one party benefits the other must suffer

If that were the truth, then man would've been stuck in caveman mode since there is no progress to be made

[robust zinc]

oh do I also have to mention the fact that the US military industry is their form of socialism lol

Man it's pretty simple to understand that profits are not meant to rip people off

Think of yourself of having to make a living by selling products that are useful to people

Would you be happy if you sold what you made for 10 dollars only at half the price?

No obviously

You'd starve

[keen wind]

cough Afghanistan cough

[silent orbit]

what does that have to do with civil liberties? also oof

[frosty spoke]

Reports≠proof they did it. Also didn't specify what the bio weapon does to humans

[frosty spoke]

Also "capitalist freedom" is abstract.
It's more ridiculous freedoms for the rich who obtain their riches through malicious bidding,and no guarantees for the 99% of what are just industry standard human rights in the USSR

[frosty spoke]

Throughout 1960-1989 there were relatively no homeless,no illiterate,and no starved USSR citizens

Soviet Russia,for example,immediately turned into "escape from tarkov" IRL when capitalism was introduced and its been still been shit up to 2011

[fast sorrel]

What's the debate topic ?

Or was

[silent orbit]

Try saying anything against the soviet government before Gorby and you'll see where it lands you

[frosty spoke]

These stats for the average American have literally only declined ,because that's the intended result of capitalism

[silent orbit]

he thinks the USSR was "good"

[fast sorrel]

I've an idea gentlemen

[silent orbit]

I'd rather be homeless than shot but hey

[frosty spoke]

1. I hate Gorbachev
2. If criticism of the government is the only main struggle than that's an easy life

[frosty spoke]

Wdym shot

[silent orbit]

1. I don't care about your opinion
2. No it isn't

[silent orbit]

go ahead

[frosty spoke]

The only Russian citizens getting shot were the ones who protested against the coup

[fast sorrel]

@frosty spoke you saying USSR was good or communism in general ?

[frosty spoke]

I was saying the USSR was still good by modern standard,but you know where these debates go

[fast sorrel]

Why don't we have him explain what was wrong with USSR's communism and how could USSR have used communism to succeed as a state

[fast sorrel]

Modern standard, after the war even the largest empire collapsed under its own weight

[frosty spoke]

What Is said "weight" in your opinion

[silent orbit]

Ask any Estonian, Latvian, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, Pole, etc if they regret soviet times

[fast sorrel]

Weight as in they couldn't manage their own colonies after exploiting them so hard

Get my point ?

*even

Are we talking bout economical and influential terms or quality of life?

[frosty spoke]

No,they actually got sabotaged

[fast sorrel]

Do explain

[frosty spoke]

The latter 2

[fast sorrel]

Ah

[frosty spoke]

https://youtu.be/mdFTgCf67Bw

[fast sorrel]

Quality of life was sire as shit

[frosty spoke]

Back it up with stats or interviews or maybe some personal stories

[fast sorrel]

Whilst influence which on moral standards doesn't define as good method and bad method still had some effecf

[silent orbit]

Ah yes, let's use the openly marxist-leninist guy as a source

[frosty spoke]

Just get the evidence to back it up

[fast sorrel]

For ex Egypt and India are still to this day Allies with Russia which began way back with the sovies

[frosty spoke]

I mean you're anti Communist and I'm still debating with your

[frosty spoke]

Let's see where all your sources came from

[fast sorrel]

It's like saying your anti nazi yt I'm here saying nazism wasn't bad if we ignore racism

[silent orbit]

Yeah, the vast majority of decent human beings aren't on the extreme of political spectrum

[frosty spoke]

I don't care about your opinion

[frosty spoke]

Well,what are your criticisms of socialism/communism?

[fast sorrel]

Nothing

[frosty spoke]

???

[fast sorrel]

I don't have anything against communism

In fact

[frosty spoke]

Then what's your problem with the(60s-80s) union?

[fast sorrel]

I won't tell where but I'm from a fairly decent democratic country and we've a state here that's literally the best

And it's communist

I mean democratically communist

[frosty spoke]

Which is?

[silent orbit]

unlike the soviets

[fast sorrel]

Which is what? I said I won't tell plus it's already Modern plus politics

[fast sorrel]

There you have it

[frosty spoke]

The soviets has elections wtf

[fast sorrel]

Soviet Union was largely just oppressive and Authoritarian

[silent orbit]

yeah so does north korea, doesn't make it democratic

[fast sorrel]

Tell that to countries under eastern bloc

[silent orbit]

democracy is more than a ballot

[frosty spoke]

I'm not talking about North Korea

[fast sorrel]

Want proof for this ?

Just look up how many man made famines the union had

The gulag

[silent orbit]

already tried lol

[frosty spoke]

Which countries in the eastern bloc

[fast sorrel]

There was a point in Siberia where families literally ate their children

[fast sorrel]

My God, everything that were "communist"

[silent orbit]

warsaw pact

[fast sorrel]

Wasn't a single pint of true democracy back there

Ask yourself this

[frosty spoke]

It's like criticizing modern American and talking about Vietnam and chile

[silent orbit]

and when the czecho-slovaks tried to become one, they were met with an invasion

[silent orbit]

Vietnam and chile aren't client states of the USA

neither are they allied to the USA

[frosty spoke]

I've seen Twitter kids dig up newer dirt

[fast sorrel]

If the people had elected a communist government and the commies had largely failed in fulfilling the workers utopia shit wouldn't they elect a non communist administration?

[frosty spoke]

I'm talking about the invasions

[silent orbit]

that has nothing to do with his argument

[frosty spoke]

They're horrible,but they happened a long time ago

[fast sorrel]

Your relating is either trash or I'm stupid

Paladin

[frosty spoke]

70% of people voted to keep the union so...

[fast sorrel]

Communism does have a chance to succeed just not under oppressive Authoritarian

[fast sorrel]

70% people of what? The soviet union ? Did ya know that the elections weren't rigged or anything?

[frosty spoke]

They were sabotaged

[silent orbit]

that wasn't what he was talking about

[silent orbit]

BY WHO?

[fast sorrel]

Hell were there even a chance for a non communist party ?

[frosty spoke]

BRO WATCH THE VIDEO

[fast sorrel]

@frosty spoke at your understanding device a definition of democracy

[frosty spoke]

70% of soviets eligible to vote

[silent orbit]

Again, you're using a video made by an openly marxist-leninist guy who believes north korea is democratic, not a source

[frosty spoke]

Since you're the one always bringing up democracy how about you start first

[fast sorrel]

So

A democracy offers people some real choice

Gimme the names of parties of soviet union that contested in elections

And weren't cracked down upon by police

[frosty spoke]

So how about you report all the videos sources? His other takes are not relevant to the topic

[silent orbit]

I don't expect someone who blindly defends any regime with enough red on it's flag to be impartial

[frosty spoke]

A vote is a real choice. If it's anti communist that would make no sense. You wouldn't see a (real) socialist party up for election in the west,now would you?

[fast sorrel]

"West"

[frosty spoke]

I don't care about your opinion

[fast sorrel]

West is openly anto communist

And it's people aren't that into communism as to take matters into their own hands

[frosty spoke]

In summary,the west is every country in NATO or the United nations to be simple

[fast sorrel]

Lmao

[robust zinc]

🍿

[fast sorrel]

Every country in UN

[frosty spoke]

The capitalist majority

[robust zinc]

Actually

We do not live in a fully capitalist society

[fast sorrel]

I'm so lost on what the hell we are even talking bouy

[fast sorrel]

Nor was the union fully communist

[frosty spoke]

I'm generalizing because there's basically no other way to describe who I'm talking about without being weird

[silent orbit]

where people can actually speak their mind and don't go to a penal colony for asking for more bread

[fast sorrel]

Worry not, you already are