Insert your controversial opinion here

[proven tundra]

Takes even longer to recover and America still becomes a super power

[mental geode]

That's not what I was talking abt

But yes, probably

[paper scaffold]

The CIA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9KVIfpNG4w

[crisp lantern]

Nah the cia’s to busy spying on american citizens

They dont fight commies no more

[proven tundra]

CIA doesn’t operate internationally

That’s the FBI

[crisp lantern]

(CIA doesnt opperate domestically)

i think is what u mean

[crisp lantern]

they still dont fight commies no more

[ornate imp]

every country belongs to america

[mental geode]

America is a continent

[ornate imp]

America is a country (aka, the United States)
There are two continents called North America and South America. They are also called “The Americas”.

not "america"

no one refers to north or south america as "america"

they refer it by N Amercia, or S. America, or even "Americas"

[crisp lantern]

Valid, but my fam in colombia get all mad when we say we re from america

[proven tundra]

Lol

[mental geode]

Yup

[kind compass]

normandy should own britain

[mental geode]

Agreed

Its rightfully Norman

[cloud meteor]

the yamato was a bad japanese battle ship

[proven tundra]

That’s not controversial

It is well known to of been more ceremonial and morale support

[cloud meteor]

i know i want to say something more tame

[proven tundra]

Say something more controversial

[cloud meteor]

being a sonderkommando was a fun job

[kind compass]

# americans SUCK

[odd patrol]

lets be real

god wont add a sex DLC to earth

the devs have abandoned the game for 2000 years ever since jesus rage quit after no one appreciated his sacrifice to save the player base from sins

[mental geode]

Muslim conquests in the 7th and 8th centuries aren't that impressive and are generally overrated

[light moat]

The world should be Roman

[proven tundra]

Nah

[proven tundra]

This is only controversial for people who are anti west who idealize anything not western lol 😆

[mental geode]

True, but that still makes it controversial for a lot of people

[inner mortar]

The entire world should be Achaemenid Persian

just as it should be in 501 BC

[proven tundra]

Why

[inner mortar]

It shall make sense as Persia moves onwards to the west
and it'd be deserving of the ancient disloyal, treacherous, divisive west to taste the oriental despotism

[quick surge]

The world should be flat

[fair hearth]

Wanna know what else is flat?

[quick surge]

Don't say it

istg if you do

[light moat]

Why

[inner mortar]

The world shall be forwardly voided

[lavish field]

Dinosaur shaped earth 🔛🔝

[left egret]

Germany could have made the nuke if they focused solely on it

[proven tundra]

Nope

Germany had chased out its top scientists in the topic and the ones who stayed did not have the right information

And Hitler considered it jew science

And had very little interest in it but allowed people to continue as a side project

[left egret]

If Hitler liked Jews then the war would be different

[stray magnet]

Hot take

The man who nearly killed Hitler should have shot him

Instead of not firing his rifle

[proven tundra]

The only confirmation of that story was from hitler

And Hitler lies. Sooooo

I don’t believe it ever happened

[remote hazel]

Bro everyone lies

[slim rain]

imagine Hitler saw it as another one of his beloved Wunderwaffe

[slim rain]

i heard the devs tried to nerf everything in 536 ad

[fair hearth]

Not me though

[proven tundra]

It was jew science and Hitler was a person of WW1. Which made many people view big artillery and big guns as the solution rather than something they probably didn’t actually understand and was very theoretical

[proven tundra]

That’s irrelevant. Given that he mythologized his service record And the individual wasn’t just some random guy he was famous in Britain

[remote hazel]

How is that irrelevant? you don't believe a story because you think he's lying? you can do that with any story

[proven tundra]

It’s a very large group of historians that now question the legitimacy of the story

Because the man himself doesn’t remember ever seeing hitler

The PR stunt hitler carried out with these claims of seeing this hero

And trying to use it to gain support and clan destine BS of his leadership of Germany

He is the only person to back this claim and it’s hitler who lied about the actions and what the unit he was in did during WW1

[proven tundra]

There are a lot of things that point to the very high probability that he lied about the whole event and it isn’t just my opinion.

[fair hearth]

You can't just solve problems that require brainpower by throwing money at it

[dark estuary]

Some War crimes can be justified

[dusty idol]

Ave Rome#3752 has been warned

Reason: Mass emoji

[dusty idol]

Questioning the rules and arguing with mods is not allowed.

[proven tundra]

Not you

[proven tundra]

Explain

[dark estuary]

Uhh…..Israel can be justified cuz they also were victimized by hamas

[proven tundra]

What war crimes have they committed?

[dark estuary]

And um…..uh……..USA fire bombing Japan because Japan also breached the Geneva conventions on the pacific front many times

[proven tundra]

The United States only fire bombed military assets👀

[dark estuary]

So war crimes can be justified if both sides are doin it on each other

[dark estuary]

Hiroshima:

[proven tundra]

It was a military manufacturing hub

[dark estuary]

And city

[proven tundra]

And we did to drop pamphlet saying leave

We warned Japan that we were going to drop a bomb. They ignored us. We drop pamphlets on the city to warn them to get out of the city. Then we warned Japan again that we would bomb them again dropped more pamphlets, and then bombed them again

[dark estuary]

Bros tryin to justify USA now

[proven tundra]

I’m not justifying anything I am pointing out what we did

[dark estuary]

Ok

[proven tundra]

We told Japan that we were going to attack them they ignored us. We dropped pamphlets on the city that we were going to nuke telling them to go away, and then we dropped the nuke. Then we told Japan that we would do it again, and they ignored us, and so we dropped more pamphlets saying get out and then we drop the Bomb again.

These cities were well known military manufacturing hubs

[dark estuary]

How about the bombing of German civilians by the USA nad British during ww2

[proven tundra]

I will blame the British Dresden was a British operation🤌🏻

And wasn’t planned

[dark estuary]

Bombing of London could justify it

[proven tundra]

I don’t think anyone could’ve planned to Dresden

[proven tundra]

Not true, because Germany didn’t target military infrastructure they went from targeting military infrastructure to targeting civilian infrastructure

And openly promoted this being exactly what they were doing

Their actions were terrorism by their own admissions

[dark estuary]

The Brit’s bombed the shit out of Hamburg or smth

And I’m pretty sure many civilians also died

[proven tundra]

Hamburg was a very prominent military manufacturing hub and logistics center

[dark estuary]

And civilian transport hub and living space

[proven tundra]

Yes

[dark estuary]

And I’m pretty sure London also had some industrial sectors

[proven tundra]

All bombing targets were inline with military targets

[proven tundra]

He did however, Germany wasn’t aiming at those

[dark estuary]

There’s no victim if both sides are perpetrators

So it’s justified

*mabye

[proven tundra]

As I said, earlier in Germany openly admitted that their goal was terrorism to break the British resolve. That’s why they attacked civilian sectors of London, rather than industrial sectors granted they attacked all over London. However, they were not specifically aiming for the industrial sectors of London. they were just attacking London, pre the attack on London. They were only attacking military infrastructure. Then they changed their targets to civilian infrastructure.

[dark estuary]

Sorry I’m on a mobile device so I can’t type as fast but yeh. What about the soviets. They can be justified by the terrible acts on the Easter’s front

I’m not sure if you know

But Soviet soldiers r*ped German women

[proven tundra]

No, unfortunately they cannot. They were evil and acted in anger and revenge attacking the Germans and acting on revenge upon them not justice.

[dark estuary]

Your not getting my point

[jade skiff]

Like that was the most messed up thing they did during the war

[proven tundra]

Germans grape Russians. Russians grape Germans

[proven tundra]

Many war, crimes, committed by the Germans on the Soviets, was then also committed by the Soviets in revenge

[jade skiff]

There were also events like mass deportation of Crimean Tatars

[proven tundra]

They were both evil because both acted in hate indiscriminate

[proven tundra]

I actually know an individual who is a Magyar, whose grandfather thought for the Hungarian auxiliary forces in the Nazi army

[stray magnet]

The war on the eastern front was really brutal

Considering both sides saw it as a “war of extermination”

[proven tundra]

“ he was not one of the good guys “. As he said it

[dark estuary]

I’ll give you an example:
Nation A plunders a City (Not justified)
Nation B pluders a City (justified because it’s making the perpetrator’s nation pay)

[proven tundra]

Indeed

[jade skiff]

What the hell do Hungarians have to do with this?

[proven tundra]

No

[dark estuary]

Ok now that I’ve given an example this sounds so messed up

[stray magnet]

Tbh I don’t expect much humanity when the Nazis or the Soviets literally are calling for the eradication of one side

Be it communism or fascism

[proven tundra]

The Magyars were a part of the Nazis 👀👀

And committed atrocities in Ukraine

[stray magnet]

They more or less were their own thing?

[proven tundra]

Indeed.

[stray magnet]

Never heard of an Hungarian auxiliary force, the only one I can think of being much later

aka 1944

When the Germans rolled up into Budapest and annexed Hungary

[dark estuary]

Weren’t there Ukrainians and finns in the Nazi army

[jade skiff]

I thought you meant being relevant to deportation, but okay

[stray magnet]

As a puppet state

[stray magnet]

Finns were their own thing

[proven tundra]

I simplify it because the Hungarian army existed, but the main fighting force was Germany, and most of the Hungarian military weaponry was hammy downs from the Germans

[stray magnet]

The Finns were never part of the axis

[jade skiff]

There were tonns of non-germans in Nazi army

[dark estuary]

Yeh but they received heavy support

[proven tundra]

Yes there were some Ukrainians, who joined the Nazis however, as Slavic executions became widespread many Ukrainians, who initially joined the Germans, deserted and joined the red army

[stray magnet]

Yeah it’s a state in corporation to the Nazis

[stray magnet]

So a militia?

[dark estuary]

Yes. Basically a militia

[proven tundra]

From what I understand, the Hungarians basically made their own death core

[stray magnet]

Oh

[proven tundra]

The Hungarians would go around Ukrainian Village, is gathering up all the civilians and executing them

[jade skiff]

That's not what militia is

[dark estuary]

*death corps

🤓🤓🤓

[proven tundra]

The guys grandfather was one of those individuals

[dark estuary]

I just realized the examples I gave to justify my opinion were so bad

Well I’m dumb

[proven tundra]

There’s are unspoken atrocities of WW2 that were just collectively blamed on the Germans but an actuality there’s more to it

[proven tundra]

Indeed

There’s a difference between justice and revenge

The Germans went in and attacked and committed multiple war crimes against the Soviets. The Soviets intern, took revenge, not justice.

That is why no war crime is justifiable

The nukes dropped on Japan were not war crimes

[dark estuary]

https://tenor.com/view/my-ho-my-honest-my-honest-reaction-my-honest-reaction-meme-my-honest-reaction-to-that-information-gif-11656955471418901098

[proven tundra]

And Dresden was an accident with the devastation and poor loss of life

[dark estuary]

I didn’t know any better. I just read a book on ww2 that said civilian lives were lost in the bombing of Dresden

[proven tundra]

However, the British officer of the air forces did say “they brought it upon themselves”

[proven tundra]

Apparently, there was also a fire tornado

That rip people off the street, as they ran away and into a burning inferno

[dark estuary]

Th-that’s so brutal

[proven tundra]

If you look at the bombing of Dresden, there goals were militarily based

If you look at what actually happened, the whole city got burned people died from asphyxiation

It was basically like Pompeii or hell being let loose on earth

I met a guy who’s grandfather survived Dresden

Had a story of watching a girl. Fly through the air into the fire cyclone

[dark estuary]

So kinda like when the nazis destroyed Warsaw

[proven tundra]

He only survived because his mom through him out a window and his aunt bolted fast enough to get away but later died from burning lung

[proven tundra]

Not even close.

Nazis didn’t drop napalm on Warsaw

That’s what caused the insanity is it was just the right amount of the stars aligning with the correct weather and conditions to cause the napalm to basically do an insane amount of damage

[stray magnet]

They didn’t, but they did intentionally target heavily Jewish areas of warsaw

And then later ended up attempting to destroy all of Warsaw after they put down the Warsaw uprising in 1944

[proven tundra]

Which weren’t military targets. That’s why Germans bad. And war crimes and Americans not bad because we didn’t target civilians

[stray magnet]

Tbf, Britain’s air strategy for bombing was the “dehousing” of German cities

Aka the destruction of German homes and factories. The belief was that if the German worker would be demoralised if he had no house and no factory to work at

[proven tundra]

That’s the British not America 😎

[stray magnet]

Which given where credit is due, has some work

[stray magnet]

Yeah but the Americans later followed up although as you mentioned

More on the military and infrastructure

[proven tundra]

Indeed

[stray magnet]

Also they did bomb French cities and towns just before d day but that wound be a different story

Which had caused at least 3,000 French civillian casualties

In places like Normandy

But the French pretty much saw this as a necessary sacrifice

So not really a big issue for the French

[proven tundra]

To be fair “the French”

[stray magnet]

What about “the French”

[proven tundra]

I used to know a gentleman. He passed away a long time ago, but the life he lived was insane anyways during World War II he operated basically as a mob boss in Paris, and proceeded to travel all over France, being a mob boss with his own little gang, and occasionally working for the British in the “French resistance”. He hated the French. And explained that the French resistance is a myth there was never a joint French resistance. There were British spies, who were French, but there was never an actual French resistance. The “French resistance” comprised of French Nazis, French fascist French communists, French anarchist, French socialists, and French monarchists. All of which would have many battles with each other and kill each other or report each other to the Nazis or steel each other stuff or sabotage missions.

Some women got reported and taken away by the SS because French communist reported them and it wasn’t until the Germans attacked the USSR that they became more active against German Nazis

So when anything bad was ever brought up that happened to the French he’d simply say “ the French”

[left egret]

Ye like accept the competent Jewish scientists

[light moat]

Dino nuggets 🔛🔝

[slim rain]

fair

i thought he was more radical with weapon design

but i guess he could be skepticle if it could actually work or not

[fair hearth]

Bruh

Those bombs alone killed more civilians than terror bombings on the UK

[fair hearth]

Ah yes because organizing thousands of aircraft and specifically using incendiary bombs to inflict maximum damage is an accident

"It was the fire's fault!"

Strategic bombing campaigns in WWII often just got away with their misdoings because it the time the introduction of airpower blurred the line on what makes a civilian target and a military target

Besides

The US use of incendiary and nuclear munitions are more indiscriminate in choosing their victims

[fair hearth]

Bruh

Yet a dumber take

You do realize war crimes are set in place so that shit doesn't spiral out of control

How the fuck does killing more people solve the problem

It's pretty simple

you can't even murder a murderer lmao

[high parrot]

I mean WW2 was a competition for who can commit more war crimes

[proven tundra]

I explained why it wasn’t above

[proven tundra]

I explained why it wasn’t above

[proven tundra]

You’re bringing America and Britain to the level of the Nazis and the Soviets which just wasn’t the case at all

[high parrot]

I mean war crimes are war crimes

[proven tundra]

What institutes a war crime

[high parrot]

Killing civilians, killing unarmed or surrendering soldiers

Stuff like that

[proven tundra]

Ok actually false

If I bomb a military target and a civilian or civilians die I have not committed a war crime

If I attack a hospital or medical triage full of military wounded I’ve committed a war crime.

[high parrot]

I mean like intentioned, not collateral

[proven tundra]

Exactly

[high parrot]

Also yes that is still a war crime

Why would you bomb a hospital

It's literally a whole rule not to kill wounded or medical personnel

[inner mortar]

I'm going to violate the Mohenjodaro Accords
in the Finno-Korean Hyperwar

sinks all of Mu and Lemuria

[proven tundra]

To kill military personnel that are wounded and gathered in one place

[proven tundra]

Indeed. Fun fact. Germans and Soviets and Japanese intentionally targeted medics

Britain and American forces did not do this

American bombing campaigns specifically targeted military infrastructure and military installations.

American soldiers did not go on missions to attack cities villages or towns. That did not have military objectives

A big problem with people is they list things that are unfortunate or sad. As a war crime. But that’s not how war crimes work

As pointed above there’s a very clear difference between internationally attacking citizens and accidentally having citizens be effected by the attack

Dresden was the first use of napalm by the British they weren’t entirely sure of the range of effect that it would have. they were bombing the logistical networks in Dresden not the people, However, early bombing was not clean or necessarily accurate, they did try to make it as accurate as possible the fires that were started, were far stronger and spread faster and were more devastating than the British and Americans could’ve happened because who could’ve predicted that the weather would’ve created the perfect situation to cause fire cyclones

There’s a lot of misinformation about war crimes in WW2 and especially modern day. things like the Vietnam war. Their were definitely and definitive war crimes committed

When American forces were sent into villages to find Vietcong. Many times everyone would end up being killed

Insurgencies blur the line between civilian and military and we just weren’t very good at it

We got a little better in Afghanistan

[fair hearth]

At the time it wasn't a warcrime

But ofc if it were to fall under modern standards

[proven tundra]

It’s still not a war crime

[fair hearth]

It definitely is

[proven tundra]

Based on ?

[fair hearth]

Bombing urban areas with dense civilian population is prohibited iirc

[proven tundra]

. There’s some complexity to this

[fair hearth]

Yeah there is

But come on the US military definitely knew civilians were going to be harmed

[proven tundra]

War

They dropped papers saying run

They chose not to run

[fair hearth]

Obviously those are their homes

It's not as easy for people to flee en masse

[proven tundra]

If I tell you. Your house is being used to create Meth get out we will be there Tuesday. Guns blazing. And then you stay in the house that’s your fault

[fair hearth]

Come on the US literally used fire bombs for the sole intention of maximizing urban damage

[high parrot]

I know, but It was to poke holes in your argument

[fair hearth]

These aren't just regular bombs

[proven tundra]

We told Japan. We will bomb you. Surrender. “No”

Hey get out now
“No”.

Get out now!
“No”

That’s on Japan

[fair hearth]

Blud is really justifying terror bombings

[proven tundra]

Wasn’t terror

The cities weren’t just random Japanese cities

[fair hearth]

"We will bomb you, surrender!"

[high parrot]

But killing unarmed and surrendering soldiers is a warcrime, which the U.S did commit

[fair hearth]

Is literally the strategy of terror bombing

[proven tundra]

That’s kinda how wars work

[fair hearth]

Terror bombing wishes to influence the political will of a population

Strategic air campaigns are more on damaging the enemy infrastructure

To make the frontline situation for them difficult

[proven tundra]

If I’m working in a bomb making factory and I get a paper that says the bomb factory is going to get bombed and I go to work anyway I have been warned

[fair hearth]

It doesnt intend for the enemy to surrender

[proven tundra]

It’s not a war crime

[proven tundra]

Not a war crime

Your agency is the variable

[fair hearth]

Factories aren't the only buildings harmed bruh

Factory workers are valid military targets as they directly contribute to the war effort

But the civilian infrastructure surrounding said factories are not

[proven tundra]

The cities that we bombed with the nukes or primary manufacturing and logistic hubs for Japan

[fair hearth]

I know

[high parrot]

I would think, if they dropped the leaflets, it would be propoganda to make us leave the city

[fair hearth]

Yet you still decided to use fire bombs

Which are way uncontrollable and cause a humanitarian crisis

[proven tundra]

Before bombing that we informed the citizens to leave, we informed the government to surrender, and they ignored us within, bombed them, and then ask them to surrender, and then send pamphlets to tell them to surrender, and they still did not surrender

[proven tundra]

That’s your agency

[fair hearth]

It would've been understandable had you just used conventional bombs

[proven tundra]

It was an accident

[fair hearth]

Blud no lol

[proven tundra]

Again, this was the first use of napalm

[high parrot]

I mean people don't pussy out from the russian threats

[fair hearth]

iirc the allied use of fire bombs were inspired by the damage caused on cologne during their thousand bomber raids

[proven tundra]

No one could of predicted it go crazy like it did

[fair hearth]

They were impressed with how much of Cologne was leveled

[proven tundra]

It’s agency as the variable

[fair hearth]

Keep in mind the controversial cases of allied aerial warcrimes always involved incendiary munitions and nuclear weapons

[proven tundra]

The effectiveness was there

[fair hearth]

Which are indiscriminate

And that's what you're being blamed for

[proven tundra]

Yes but there’s a reason it’s debated

[high parrot]

Meh

[high parrot]

Maybe testing on non urbanised centers

[fair hearth]

Yeah ofc because at the time aerial warfare blurred the line between what is a valid military target and not

But the problem here is this

With conventional weaponry it is very clear you are only targetting the factories, any casualties caused by inaccutacy are pure accident

[proven tundra]

If I hold a gun and tell you 3 times to duck because I’m aiming for the person behind you. Who’s to blame for not Ducking

[fair hearth]

But using fire bombs and nukes obviously means civilians are going to be harmed at large scale

[high parrot]

Okay, now it's an actual threat, but those leaflets were most of the time propoganda or empty threats

[proven tundra]

The problem is is Dresden’s weather had a massive affect on the catastrophe. No one predicted what happened because no one could’ve predicted that the fires would’ve been able to get out of control the way they did the weather did it not intentional bombing

[stable moon]

https://tenor.com/view/discord-discord-drama-drama-argument-political-gif-24419538

[fair hearth]

Dude

It's fire

Ofc its gonna go out of control

[proven tundra]

It’s not drama

[high parrot]

How about use on military targets than urban centers

[fair hearth]

iirc fire bombs were also chosen because the allies wanted to inflict a catastrophic collapse to German response

[high parrot]

Discord debate

[proven tundra]

No one’s upset or arguing with emotion lol

[proven tundra]

Indeed

[stable moon]

im just goofing around

[fair hearth]

basically fire departments not having the capacity to respond in time

Thus inflicting more damage

[proven tundra]

Join me plane. Fight for the right to fire bombs 😎🤪

[proven tundra]

What ?

[fair hearth]

The fire bombings, while certainly not an act of terror are subject to criticism because of the use of such uncontrollable weaponry

[proven tundra]

Indeed to ensure the destruction of their target

[proven tundra]

Indeed

This is factual

[fair hearth]

Yeah but ofc that meant civilians are going to be harmed in such larger scales

[proven tundra]

Unknown scales

[fair hearth]

Hiding in tunnels wont even save them as the entire city is already destroyed

[high parrot]

I mean like logistics hubs or airfields, not factories with civilians surrounding it

[proven tundra]

Which wouldn’t be considered a war crime

[fair hearth]

Fire bombings give no room for recovery

[proven tundra]

Logistics are the factories

[fair hearth]

That's the problem with it

[proven tundra]

???

[fair hearth]

If a single conventional bomb just destroys a single building, fire destroys entire cities

[proven tundra]

I’ve even seen arguments be made that if you’re a soldier and you live in a house, your house is a military logistical site because it is a place of congregation for enemy personnel.

[fair hearth]

I mean yeah

That's why Ww2 aerial campaigns are controversial

Since the allied leadership basically argued there were military anti air installations in every city

[proven tundra]

That’s not necessarily true remember, and again Dresden’s fire bombing was not widespread. The bombs were dropped on a specific area within the notable range of error during World War II. The weather and the fire itself spread far more, and became far more destructive than anyone could’ve predicted because the weather, it was not a guarantee that Dresden would be burned to the ground. That was not the intentions of the air bombing.

[fair hearth]

Which basically meant the entire city is a valid military target lol

[high parrot]

Crazy, but kinda make sense

[fair hearth]

Dude

It's fire

It's obviously going to spread

[proven tundra]

Fire trucks 🚒

[fair hearth]

Dont blame it on the weathrr

[fair hearth]

Not enough

[high parrot]

Bro how do you type so quick

[proven tundra]

No, look up Dresden

[fair hearth]

And the allies knew that

[high parrot]

What the hail

[fair hearth]

I know about the fire storm

[proven tundra]

Oh, you don’t understand like if you actually look at what happened in Dresden, the weather had a massive impact on the spread and power of the fire storm

The fire storm was not caused by Just napalm . It was caused by the weather.

[fair hearth]

But the issue still remains of the allies using the fire bombs

[fair hearth]

Dude there wouldnt be a firestorm in the first place if there wasnt a fire

[stable moon]

love how everyone is apeshit about the dresden bombings but when mentioned the other german cities that got the same destruction as dresden (like cologne for example), no one bats an eye

just whats with dresden bruh

[fair hearth]

And fires alone are crazy huge already

The weather just made it worse

[stable moon]

how about the other german cities

they get bombed too but got fucking overshadowed by dresdem

[fair hearth]

Dresden saw incendiary munition

[proven tundra]

^^^^

[fair hearth]

I dont think Cologne saw incendiery bombs

[proven tundra]

And was an absolute horrible event

[fair hearth]

That's why it doesnt get as much attention

[proven tundra]

No it wasn’t. Unless someone lied to me. Lol 😂

[fair hearth]

Dresden and Tokyo are controversial since they both implemented fire bombing

I'd say Tokyo was worse though

[stable moon]

so its only dresden they get firebombed while the other cities got conventionally bombed

damn allies got beef with that city 💀

[fair hearth]

Since the US literally knew japanese infrastructure is made up of wood primarily

[proven tundra]

The capital of Japan 🇯🇵

[stable moon]

allies probably thought dresden was the location of die glocke so its the only german city that got firebombed 💀

[fair hearth]

Dresden is a major logistical hub

[stable moon]

(satire)

[proven tundra]

🔥😎🔥 I see no problems here

[fair hearth]

Bombing it as fine

[stable moon]

im just goofing around lol

i have nothing to do

[fair hearth]

But the issue is why the napalm

[stable moon]

being alone in my house is not fun tbh

[proven tundra]

Because. It allowed a level of guarantee destruction to the target that wouldn’t necessarily be guaranteed by a single bomb.

[fair hearth]

Obviously by destroying everything around it

Plus

[proven tundra]

Remember bombing was incredibly random and there was a good chance that you weren’t able to hit the factory or the target that you were aiming for so fire if you got close enough to the target the fire with spread to the target

[fair hearth]

This is both in 1944-1945

A time when axis defeat is obvious

[proven tundra]

That’s why bombing war crime conversations 👍🏻

[stable moon]

ok

[proven tundra]

Eeeeeeehhhhhhhh

[fair hearth]

Ah wair

Both 1945 lol

[stable moon]

i saw another city that got firebombed too like dresden yet dosent get attention

[fair hearth]

I get my dates mixed up

[stable moon]

hamburg

[fair hearth]

Dude it was obvious

[stable moon]

hamburg got dresden'ed too yet didnt get attention

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Hamburg_in_World_War_II

[proven tundra]

It doesn’t matter how obvious a defeat us if the guy shooting at you is still going to continue to shoot at you. It doesn’t matter. If he knows he’s going to die he’s still shooting at you.

[stable moon]

its always dresden 💀

the bombing of hamburg was fucking huge

[high parrot]

Dresden

[proven tundra]

Even in the source that you cited, it specifically shows why we hit it

[fair hearth]

Yeah but here's the thing, both countries are already on the brink of economic collapse by the time the bombings happened

[high parrot]

Dress then

[proven tundra]

Hamburg was a massive manufacturing and logistical hard to even more than Dresden

[fair hearth]

So its strategic value is questionable

Especially for Japan

Germany was more understandable

[proven tundra]

Questionable sure but effective yes 🙌🏻

[stable moon]

bruh it was one of the largest firestorms like dresden levels of firestorms yet the hamburg bombings gets overshadowed

[proven tundra]

Japan was not going to surrender

[stable moon]

like bruh

[fair hearth]

But Japan virtually had no chance anymore having lost access to oil in the east indies

[fair hearth]

Here's the thing you see

At that point in the war you aren't liberating anymore

Well kinda

[proven tundra]

Because Hamburg was a massive manufacturing and logistics up. It was one of the prominent weapons manufacturing sources, and as it points out, it’s naval yard was extremely important to the Nazi war effort

[fair hearth]

Japanese military might is virtually gone

It's nothing compared to the US behemoth

[stable moon]

fair enough but it was still a shithole ig

[proven tundra]

The thing is is Japan was planning on the mainland invasion. The bombings helped change the governments decision to fight a war on the mainland.

[fair hearth]

I doubt the US would land on the mainland

[proven tundra]

#Warsucks

[fair hearth]

Who are they gonna save from the mainland lol

[proven tundra]

They would of

They planned to

[fair hearth]

At least with France and the Philippines they knew they were liberating

[stable moon]

same as dresden they both are military targets although i find hamburg to be more strategic and tactical

[proven tundra]

They had the plans made

[fair hearth]

iirc Overlord was at best just a plan

And even then

Overlord showed how huge the casualties were

[proven tundra]

If the nukes had not cause Japan, to surrender America, had the plans made to invade mainland Japan, and destroy it

[fair hearth]

Are Americans really just gonna let millions of theirs to die just for the enemy to raise a white flag

[proven tundra]

Yes

We had the plans made

[stable moon]

operation dragoon honest reaction:

[proven tundra]

We had generals and forces ready

If the nukes hadn’t done the trick. We’d of gone all in

[fair hearth]

But that doesnt show any indication that you guys are seriously going to do it

At best you'd just keep bombing and blockading Japan

It's way cheaper

[proven tundra]

We had multiple high-ranking officials who all they had to say is go already on the edge of their seats, ready to say go if they needed

[proven tundra]

No. America would of invaded mainland Japan

[fair hearth]

Sooner or later Japan would starve anyways

[stable moon]

japan wanted to be invaded iirc

[fair hearth]

They are just a few months behind a severe rice crisis

[proven tundra]

Not only did they want to stop the Japanese, but also to prevent Japan, and as much of China and Korea, from falling into the Soviets hands as possible

[stable moon]

its this thingy called ketsu-go

when

[proven tundra]

Indeed

[proven tundra]

^

[fair hearth]

iirc Japanese high command abandoned Ketsu go later on in the war

[proven tundra]

If Japan had not surrendered after the nuking we would’ve invaded

[fair hearth]

I forgot

Or maybe Hirohito just showed disapproval of the plan

[stable moon]

they would raise their fanatic meter to 9000 and will fuck up the americans so hard that they would retreat (wont prevent them from dropping two suns on them)

and hey shermans would now have an actual challenge since they would fight against capable chi nus instead of crappy ha gos and chi has

[proven tundra]

We also would of gone after Korea and as much of China as possible to stop the Soviets

[fair hearth]

Man you didnt even commit in the Korean war when the Chinese stepped in

[proven tundra]

By that time in the war America’s military power was at its highest. It would not have been a fair fight however, it would’ve been a very, very, very, very, very costly one.

[proven tundra]

The Soviets were coming

[fair hearth]

The main issue for a mainland invasion is Japan's terrain

[proven tundra]

We didn’t like that idea

[stable moon]

dosent prevent the japs from raising their fanatic meter to 999999999

[proven tundra]

So we would’ve invaded mainland, China and Korea, to stop the Soviets from taking it similar to how we invaded Europe

[fair hearth]

Europe's geography despite being ideal was already problematic enough for Overlord

What more Downfall

[stable moon]

plus the USSR dosent have enough transport ships to invade japan at the first place

they can only do jackshit at manchuria

the russian pacific fleet is shit

[proven tundra]

Like I said we had the plans we would of done it. We knew it be bad. That’s why nukes. But if they’d not surrendered. We would of had to do it

[fair hearth]

The entire coast of Japan is mined anyways

[stable moon]

most of their capable vessels is in europe

[proven tundra]

The Soviets were coming in and decimating the Japanese military on the mainland

[fair hearth]

I know

[proven tundra]

It’s not a matter of whether or not the Soviets would’ve taken Japan it’s a matter of whether or not the Soviets would’ve taken China and Korea

[fair hearth]

Manchuria was so swift

[stable moon]

they couldnt do jackshit if they dont have enough transport ships

the soviet navy is like

[proven tundra]

So the issue that America faced was the Soviets and Japan

[fair hearth]

They did get it though

Except for Korea

[stable moon]

one of the most neglected when it comes to funding

[proven tundra]

I mean, yes, eventually China did become communist and Korea try to become communist

[fair hearth]

Manchuria eventually was transferred to the CCP during the civil war

[proven tundra]

However, if World War II head nod ended with the nuking of Japan

The Soviet Union would’ve annexed areas that they had captured during the war

[fair hearth]

Eh kinda

[proven tundra]

This most likely would’ve included a large sum of China and Korea

[fair hearth]

Since they actually did get Manchria

[proven tundra]

So on top of invading Japan, American forces would also have to invade China and Japan

[fair hearth]

They just gave it to the CCP

[proven tundra]

Exactly

[proven tundra]

Indeed

[stable moon]

they finally gonna have port arthur 😳

[proven tundra]

So America would’ve been on a timeline and that’s one of the reasons why they dropped. The nukes is because they wanted a immediate victory to stop the annexation of mainland, China and Korea by the Soviets and put an end to the Japanese aggression.

[fair hearth]

The modern world would have been so peaceful had the CCP just lost the civil war lol

[proven tundra]

If nukes hadn’t put Japan out of business, they would’ve invaded, and they would’ve invited everywhere to stop the spread of communism

[stable moon]

kuomintang dosent have enough power in rise of kingdoms

[fair hearth]

It still confuses me ngl

The KMT outnumbered the CCP 2 to 1

Held more territory

And somehow still fucking lost

[stable moon]

plot armor

[proven tundra]

You have to remember a lot of China’s just empty nothingness, kind of like Russia. Yes, they’re a big country, but a large amount of it is not developed.

[stable moon]

ok heres a pretty controversial one:
the domino theory is silly, goofy and just straight up nonsense

[fair hearth]

That also played to the CCPs advantage

[proven tundra]

Indeed

[fair hearth]

Chiang was kind of a bitch to the peasants

[stable moon]

like why would someone turn communist just because their neighbors became one like bruh

[fair hearth]

Which ofc, with the so many land redistributions the communists promise

[stable moon]

the only thing that would actually make happen is via invasion

[fair hearth]

No wonder why more of the chinese joined the ccp

[fair hearth]

It makes sense

Its not silly lol

Southeast asia all were experiencing communist insurgencies

[stable moon]

i mean thats fair enough

[fair hearth]

You should know this considering the NPA and martial law lol

Although communist presence here is ofc exagerrated

[stable moon]

i regret not paying attention to history at elementary (i was only interested in it after i fucking grew up 💀 )

[fair hearth]

iirc in reality the NPA only numbered somewhere around a few thousands

But the Marcos Admin claimed they were in the millions lol

Simply because they included those whom the NPA extorted from as collaborators

[stable moon]

...

how would they be able to arm them tho

[fair hearth]

My grandpa was part of the PH constabulary lol

He has quite the reputation in his town

People are afraid of him lmao

[stable moon]

one of my family members is a victim of the NPA so i kind of hate them a lot

[fair hearth]

There was this event that happened

When a chinese cargo ship was caught in the ph smuggling firearms

Marcos used the event as evidence of rampant communism in the PH

I forgot what was the name of the incident though

[stable moon]

i kind of remember this although its kinda shady rn

[fair hearth]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Karagatan_incident

[stable moon]

bruh

i was about to search that

[jade skiff]

Because the communist insurgencies tend to spread

[fair hearth]

Not to mention how much of southeast asia are still agrarian societies

https://tenor.com/view/joji-filthy-frank-welcome-to-the-rice-fields-rice-fields-gif-15724064

[light moat]

why does that remind me of Griffin

💀

[crisp lantern]

It does look like him lol

[slim rain]

we love our rice

[inner mortar]

unfortunate events & skill issue is what plagues the KMT long ago

[inner mortar]

Cauc Joji should release some banger AH songs fr fr

[inner mortar]

that ain't a hot take for anyone that isn't a French n' Francophile

the Balkanization should extend as far as the entire Mediterranean

[inner mortar]

Beys, nomes, provinces, departments, oblasts, and other administrative division types all across the waters that embody the three continents apart

[vivid carbon]

Genghis khan deserves to get far more hate compared to Hitler for the amount of atrocities committed

[stray magnet]

Pretty sure that guy is already hated into oblivion

By anyone with a sane and hopefully rational mind

The ppl who enjoy his work are sadists, edgy ppl or well

Less mentally stable

Mostly

Again

Anyone with a sane and rational mind

Also where

Huh…

[vivid carbon]

Absolutely. I have utmost sympathy and condolences for holocaust victims.

But it feels like people prioritize European genocide too much compared to other genocide which were much larger and more brutal then holocaust.

I don't have any issues with that but the over prioritization of holocaust allows many of these far worse genocidal maniacs like Genghis khan,Mao,Stalin to be idolised

[vivid carbon]

Undoubtedly. it's sad how few people know about these other genocide.

We are somewhat really lucky to be living in the modern era. Currently there are some major wars going on. People are outraged by a couple hundred civilians dying.

I wonder if people have any idea how worse wars were . If you were lucky you were simply slashed or burned to death. If worse you and your family were enslaved and worked to death.

I sometimes wonder what Genghis khan would do with modern weapons. The guy who wiped 11% of the global population with horse and arrow. I genuinely believe it would be 50% if he had guns

[fair hearth]

Thing is, Hitler's genocide is an industrial one

The crimes done under many communist regime is more likely to be called as democide rather than that of genocide

[vivid carbon]

IMO i don't find that distinguishes it enough to ignore other notable genocide. For example Genghis also committed genocide an industrial scale. After gathering all civilians after war each soldier had to meet the quota of man, women and child he had to kill. Similar in Carthage, a genocide caried out in a systematic state wise.

Maybe it's my bias I'm not European. So i fail to see why is Holocaust prioritised so much over other genocide.

[fair hearth]

The thing is

WWII affected everyone across the globe

And people who've experienced it still live to tell the tale

So ofc it's going to recieve more attention

It's more relevant

[vivid carbon]

Doesn't that make our duty to tell the tale of the tragedy of Carthage, Genghis khan because no one is alive to tell their tale.

I believe history books have duty to at least mention the major genocide if not describe them. I find the Holocaust over shadow other genocide so much many people actually believe it's largest genocide in history. I'm not saying to ignore holocaust but at least mentioned Rwanda, Genghis khan, some other largest and recent genocide.

[fair hearth]

The holocaust is more relevant to western society

Dont forget that the west also engaged in racial injustice

[proven tundra]

That’s extremely hollow and meaningless when you realize EVERY CIVILIZATION HAS DONE THIS

[fair hearth]

I know

But present western society tries to learn from their mistakes lol

How is that hollow lol

[proven tundra]

The reason Genghis Khan isn’t hated as much as he use to be. Is because you can’t change the past. And he did not go after people just to go after them. He was a brutal conqueror. Timur was even more brutal and people in the west don’t even know his name

[fair hearth]

Human rights isn't even a concept back then

[proven tundra]

Eh. Debatable

[fair hearth]

Well yeah debatable

[proven tundra]

Mongols had a code

[fair hearth]

But ofc it doesn't possess the same level of international recognition that we have today

[proven tundra]

And rape was still bad just no one could enforce rape bad when the enforcers are the ones doing the raping

Modern day Peace keepers are a great example of this.

Multiple accusations, evidence and video evidence have been brought to light of UN Peacekeepers raping. Children and adults

And very little has been addressed

[fair hearth]

Probably a rule 3

But send me an article lol

First time I've heard of it

[proven tundra]

Nah this stuff was getting blown up in the Yugoslavian war

[quick surge]

All I care about is that big ass kingdom map he made ngl

[fair hearth]

That's why I said "probably"

[quick surge]

That looks sexy as hell

[fair hearth]

Since UN peacekeepers existed way before 2012 kek

[proven tundra]

It’s still going on. But yeah

[proven tundra]

Lol 😂. Indeed

[quick surge]

"UN Troops" first deployed back in '51

[proven tundra]

Unfortunately I don’t save anything I read or watch I seriously need to but I don’t do it but you could probably do some digging and find the reports. There was stuff happening in Armenia recently and I believe Somalia had some issues as well

Where ever the UN puts their “peace keepers”. And they’re not United States personnel. There’s been issues. And the UNs solution is sending the people home and not stringing them up by their toes

[vivid carbon]

The UN soldiers are known to use food as bargains chip for sex, i probably saw it on DW

Mainly in Africa

[proven tundra]

Because they come from any UN member. Some very shady countries have sent some very unwanted people to wear the hat

I fully support the abolishing of the UN and a strengthening of NATO ….and kicking Turkey out of NATO 😇

[fair hearth]

Ughhhhh

[proven tundra]

Lol 😂

[fair hearth]

Turkey is a pain in the ass for NATO though xd

[proven tundra]

Exactly. Kick 🦵

Turkey caused the Cuban crisis 🤪

[fair hearth]

The UN while awkward, at least provides a stage where countries can show their opinions on issues

Besides, the UN does some financial aid

[proven tundra]

That’s my historical revisionism lol 😂. I blame trucks for the bay of pigs

[fair hearth]

Better then nothing

[proven tundra]

That’s what Twitter is for

[fair hearth]

Fair point lol

[proven tundra]

Look into the money corruption 👀.

[vivid carbon]

Neither can we change anything about ww2 but it should be known, the atrocities he committed. I agree he didn't discriminate against who he killed but that doesn't mean we shouldn't hold the death of 11 percent of the population against him.

[fair hearth]

You can't really expect people to be aware of everything

[proven tundra]

A private company tried to follow the money for the UNs hunger initiatives in Africa. And they almost ended up getting arrested because they start asking why money was missing

[fair hearth]

Besides, Genghis Khan is pretty well known anyways

[proven tundra]

I think this was in like 2004-5 maybe. I can’t remember

[fair hearth]

It's arguable more people even know about him more than Pol Pot

History as a subject isn't even an interest to most people anyways

[proven tundra]

Plus. Khan had his day of fear. And now he’s just a dude who took over a bunch of stuff and then died

For none historians. Hitler Bad cause he killed Jews. Is like the surface level stuff

100 years from now. People might even ask the question “who’s Hitler ?”

[fair hearth]

My classmates dont even know Hitler killed jews 😭

[proven tundra]

See

[fair hearth]

It can be funny sometimes

Just a week ago

[proven tundra]

You can’t expect people who don’t even remember what they had for breakfast to remember anything about history that they weren’t even alive to be there

[fair hearth]

My seatmate told our professor the Japanese were the good guys in ww2

[vivid carbon]

To play devils advocate UN soldiers are used as human shields. They can't shoot until shot. They drive through the deadliest area of earth driving in a white truck with a blue helmet like sitting 🦆🦆. You would be surprised amount of regulation and bullshit the have to go through with a shitty pay

That's why private military are so popular

[proven tundra]

Of course they were their contribution to dealing with frostbite has helped hundreds if not thousands of people be saved and avoid losing body parts to frostbite

Don’t ask where they got their data 👀👀

[fair hearth]

And don't ask who bought the data

[proven tundra]

Bought ? Please. We just took that crap lol

[fair hearth]

Lmao

[proven tundra]

Part of the peace agreement

All science had to be handed over

[fair hearth]

Today on Mythbusters: can a young chinese boy survive from a hand grenade at point blank range

Next episode: Babies are known to naturally possess the fear of heights, but do they naturally fear the bayonet?

[proven tundra]

The vet I used to know. Who fought in WW1. Actually watched a guy pull a pin on a grenade throw it and then it bounced off of something and fell back at him

[fair hearth]

Meanwhile my aunt

Literally played with a hand grenade when she was a baby (or idk maybe a toddler)

My dad got a beating from grandpa after that incident lol

He's supposed to be the one to make sure the cabinet holding his weapons were always secured

[vivid carbon]

I saw a video of an interview Japanese guy that was involved in that. He said they threw the baby from the cliff after beyoneted. The S Abused mother immediately jumped after child. The guy has zero regrets.

Now i get why Germans complained about the brutality of Japanese

[fair hearth]

Just inside my uni we have a memorial where a Japanese massacre took place

[remote hazel]

It’s legally required to Banzai it daily

[fair hearth]

Pretty tragic considering the Japanese troops literally went to the Uni, got served breakfast

[vivid carbon]

The Japanese government still denies any wrong doing. Wonderful reality we live in

[fair hearth]

Then moments later they returned back and started killing people out of suspicion of guerillas

[fair hearth]

Japan keeps insisting their troops were insubordinate

To some extent while true, the Generals despite knowing about these occurences; did not punish their own soldiers for such misdoings

The average Japanese soldier's psyche is so weird man

Who in their goddamn mind would start thinking of killing people as a sport

[remote hazel]

Video Game Devs

[fair hearth]

Too bad real life doesn't give achievements for that

[vivid carbon]

https://tenor.com/view/wierd-face-high-i-love-meth-gif-5000646329523108782

I probably have some idea why

[fair hearth]

Japanese army discipline is so bad

Their government's literal solution to their misconduct is just sending them sex slaves

[onyx talon]

Ayo wat

[fair hearth]

The Japanese forcefully took women from several countries and had them work as comfort women

[onyx talon]

You do learn something every day huh

[proven tundra]

Given how fanatical Japanese soldiers were I think it worked

[fair hearth]

No

That's not what made them fanatics lol

iirc the Japanese army has this stupid tendency to stray away from command whenever they feel too stressed from wartime conditions

[proven tundra]

I was kinda making a joke

[fair hearth]

Part of that ofc have to do with the Japanese mentality of honor and their bushido code

Even Japan's own government can't control their own armies

IJA is one hell of an organizational mess

You know shit is so bad when the army has their own aircraft carrier

[proven tundra]

Given their empire needed America to kill. They did pretty well

Lol 😂

[fair hearth]

Tbh it's actually reasonable for Japan to bomb Pearl Harbor

[proven tundra]

It don’t matter how unconventional they were organized If it works it works

[proven tundra]

If you’re going to do something stupid like attack America. Sure

[fair hearth]

No no thats not what I mean

Look at the Pacific man

On paper

[proven tundra]

It was owned by us

[fair hearth]

The US cant even supply the pacific fleet here in the PH

[proven tundra]

It was inevitable

[fair hearth]

Their major naval base in asia lol

[proven tundra]

Couldn’t

[fair hearth]

At best, Manila could only service the asiatic fleet

Which comprised of a few cruisers

Japan is confident that the US does not have the logistics to create a supply chain that far

Especially after the US just came from the depression

Sure the Japanese are worried about US ship production

[proven tundra]

Well the goal isn’t really to have full on giant navel bases in Asia. Especially since they had a very large air presence in the Philippines, that also got attacked simultaneously, and we had multiple naval bases throughout the Pacific that also got attacked

[fair hearth]

But it was really American logistics that won the war

[fair hearth]

Pretty much

And that's why Japan was confident you guys would just back down

It's stupid expensive to take back the Philippines

But Japan definitely forgot the racism factor lmao

A western power wouldnt just accept being defeated by what they consider as inferior

American liberation of the PH is primarily to save MacArthur's face lol 🤣

The PH held little strategic value when compared to the alternative of Taiwan

[proven tundra]

That’s a rather cynical view

[fair hearth]

It's true

When MacArthur left the PH

He made a promise to return

During the island hopping campaigns

Iirc Navy admirals like that of Nimitz preferred landing on Taiwan

As this places US B 29s closer to China and Japan

Plus cuts off the strait of a taiwan and the bashi channel/luzon strait

But MacArthur kept insisting to land here in the PH instead since he made a promise

[proven tundra]

The problem is, Japan was operating in other parts of the pacific taking back the Philippines was kind of necessary

[fair hearth]

Taking Taiwam cuts off the Japanese supply lines by a far larger margin

And would allow you to support the Chinese NRA

[proven tundra]

Yes, but then you would have Japanese forces behind you in the Philippines

[fair hearth]

Man

Remember the island hopping campaigns

[proven tundra]

Yeah

[fair hearth]

The US have always decided to just skip over islands

The idea is by skipping, the islands behind it would just starve out

[proven tundra]

We never left up island alone that was valuable thoug

[fair hearth]

Ofc

But in this sense Taiwan was more valuable

[proven tundra]

And the Philippines was kind of big, and had a very large Japanese force on the island, and it also had some naval forces there as well

[fair hearth]

Although there is one slight issue why the Navy eventually gave up to MacaArthur's plans

Taiwan is more heavily defended than the PH

[fair hearth]

Not really

[proven tundra]

Yes, and at the time the Philippines belong, to us

[fair hearth]

The IJN is anchored in Borneo

Not the PH

[proven tundra]

No ?

[fair hearth]

Only in Borneo is where the IJN can resupply oil

[fair hearth]

Yes

[proven tundra]

Hmm 🤔

[fair hearth]

The PH doesnt have oil

But Borneo does

Well at least the Americans "liberated" us from the Japanese lol

The Japanese were definitely the worse of the two

[proven tundra]

Lol 😂

[fair hearth]

America's crimes on the PH are more of cultural and economical

Well you guys did some massacres here and there

Along with unequal rights

[fair hearth]

Neocolonialism!

Most epic way of hiding an empire

[proven tundra]

Lol.

The Philippians weren’t unified until the Spanish

[fair hearth]

Kind of

[proven tundra]

Eh

Separate peoples

[fair hearth]

There was a sultanate in the south

The sultanate of sulu

Whose presence established itself firmly in Mindanao

[proven tundra]

A lot of the pacific islands were kind of like that’s even though they were closed they were truly unique and maybe shared similar languages and maybe the same language, but didn’t consider each other apart of the same tribe until colonialism unified entire groups of people

[fair hearth]

Which did become a problem for all three of the colonizers to subjugate the unifief muslim population

It's why till this day we have muslim insurgencies in the south

[proven tundra]

Islam is a governmental religion so it’s kinda par the course

[fair hearth]

Some of the Muslims do not identify as filipinos by virtue of not being controlled by the colonizers

[proven tundra]

Lol 😆

[fair hearth]

And as such possess a different national identity

[proven tundra]

Smh

Always gotta be difficult

Islam comes in conquering and killing its way through the islands. Then falls apart. Westerners come in and go “🫠 the Muslims are here too”

[fair hearth]

Colonialism is what led to the creation of a filipino national identity

But here's the thing

It is us filipinos that came up with our nationality

Not the colonizers

[proven tundra]

Because nationalism and easier transportation infrastructure

[fair hearth]

Dissatisfaction towards spanish colonial rule are more of an isolated case

[proven tundra]

Geographical Tribalism tends to fall apart when you rip a road through the mountains

[proven tundra]

Really?

[fair hearth]

Usually due to exploits and harsh treatments is why rebellions would occur

Not because we were striving for a national idetity

[proven tundra]

Indeed. Very normal

[fair hearth]

The first filipinos wanted the ph to be a province of Spain lol

[proven tundra]

African tribes did the same thing

[fair hearth]

But with such a request being denied, then did we see the need for independence

[proven tundra]

Spain at the time did hold some accountability for governance

[fair hearth]

Kind of

I'm not too knowledgeable on this topic

[proven tundra]

I mean you’d have to actually go all the way to Spain though lol 😂

[fair hearth]

But most of our beef here is with the catholic friars lol

Stuff like being buried in a chinese grave made many filipinos mad lmao

[proven tundra]

Lol

Oops

[fair hearth]

We did iirc

Spain gave some filipinos liberties to travel to Europe

[proven tundra]

I’m sure. A lot of people did. But it also took years

[fair hearth]

I forgot why the reforms that led to the principalia happened

[proven tundra]

I think 8 months ?

[fair hearth]

But iirc there was a revolution in spain at the time

[proven tundra]

Of course

[fair hearth]

1868 spanish revoltion iircM

Some gobernador general got replaced and introduced more liberal reforms

My history knowledge is pretty hazy

Everything is just wikipedia lmao

[fair hearth]

Illustrados I mean

Lol principilia

I keep mixing these two elite groups

[jade skiff]

Tfw a nation with a famous and well entrenched national idea of code of honour and loyalty has less honourable and disciplined soldiers than its opponents

[inner mortar]

the principalia has been long created when they are made alcalde mayors of and gobernadors of provincial pueblos (the Spanish friars and colonials delegating rural municipal parish control to the creoles/mestizos among the local chiefs)

ilustrados are a generation of highly educated colonial students with better education acquired in their studies across Western Europe

[inner mortar]

Spanish Carlist Wars be like:

[eager lodge]

Continues to use the imposed colonial name

[inner mortar]

try suggesting a fitting identity on us then

we too were slow and hesitant on coming up with a sound term of our nationality

the name made sense as it long stuck among it's colonials since around the early 19th century

[vivid carbon]

Well they were subordinate enough to die in kamakazi attack. I'm pretty sure they are subordinate enough to not to bayoneting babies if if instructed

[fair hearth]

Tbf the first "Filipinos" who tried to seek a national identity where those of the illustrado class seeking reform to be part of spain. At first the term Filipino was used to just describe the spaniards born in the colony (aka insulares). They were called as the insulares if they are in the PH, and filipinos whenever they visit Spain

And since the illustrados initally sought to have of equal status with that of the Spaniards, it would just make sense to refer to themselves also as a filipino in their many travels to Europe

iirc during the Revolution, the Katipunan; particularly Bonifacio instead chose to call all the natives of the archipelago as "Tagalogs" instead of the colonially rooted term of "Filipino"

[fair hearth]

The Kamikaze corps is an all volunteer organization

They weren't forced to do it

Pressured by society maybe, but to many pilots they saw the suicide missions as the only rational way of saving Japan and ofc fulfilling an honourable death

[paper scaffold]

To be fair, there were efforts to change the name to 'Malaysia', but Malaysia beat them to it

[inner mortar]

the Malayans and Borneans of the British Malaya, Sarawak, and Sabah colonies

[stray magnet]

East Malaysia

[high parrot]

The CSA was bad with all that slavery and their reasons were completely corrupted by greed

But...

They did make a cool underwater boat

[inner mortar]

A phenomenal weapon
a suicide underwater battering lancer

[high parrot]

[stray magnet]

Mfw when the submarine sinks one boat but ends up killing all its crew

[inner mortar]

A total sacrifice for the lost cause

[stray magnet]

Kamikaze confederates

[steep pine]

World War II was inevitable

If it wasn't the Germans gonna start it

It was gonna be the Soviets

[high parrot]

Was best weapon

[stray magnet]

Imperial Japanese seal of approval

[high parrot]

CSA should invested everything into the underwater boats

[proven tundra]

Eh. No. Under Stalin. The USSR was extremely isolationist

Germany would of been the only country that had any legitimate interests in war.

If let’s say Germany has its hidden military arms build up exposed and the Allie’s did something about it pre hitler and snuffed it. And let’s say hitler doesn’t gain control. WW2 would of never started.

A Japanese American war would of probably happened

But because of Soviet isolation under Stalin. Unless the Soviets got attacked they’d just sit there

So a war would of happened but not a World war

And I still subscribe to the Great War didn’t actually end till 1991

[high parrot]

Well the soviets would just let the germans keep control of europe

If hitler made peace with britain and the U.S then there would be one target for german "living space"

And the soviets knew that, but they didn't invade, because they thought hitler wouldn't be insane enough to fight on two fronts and that they could invade easier after the british and major amounts of U.S support helped make another front

Also I do think the soviets would invade japan to gain manchuria like they did IRL

[proven tundra]

Indeed

Japan will attack Pearl Harbor and America would fight Japan probably alone. And win

Possibly no nukes

[fair hearth]

Britain would still be included

[proven tundra]

Why how

[fair hearth]

The primary target in Southeast Asia is Malaya and Indonesia

[proven tundra]

Potentially now that you mention it 🤔🤔

[fair hearth]

The reason Japan had to do Pearl Harbor and attack America is the Japanese wanted to prevent the Americans from implementing war plan orange and building up an army in the Philippines

Which the Americans already were doing

[proven tundra]

I mean and the oil

[fair hearth]

Pretty ironic how Pearl Harbor lost to the Japanese surprise attack because they mistook the Japanese formation as their own B-17s which were en route to the PH the same day

[fair hearth]

What

There's no oil in American pacific territories

Most of the oil was in Borneo

It's why I say American colonization of the PH indirectly led to your involvement in 2nd world war and thus solidifying your status as a superpower lol

Without the Philippines as a potential American military asset

The Japanese would've easily just not do Pearl Harbor

Unless the US for some reason intervenes in saving Britain, which is doubtful considering their isolationist stance

[fair hearth]

I forgot about this but iirc there were claims that the Soviets were planning an invasion of Germany

But as far as I remember

That was Nazi propaganda

[proven tundra]

^

[fair hearth]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_offensive_plans_controversy

It's kind of feasible though considering the actual large size of the Red Army

However the Nazi propaganda part was for the most part a lie, since even the Germans were surprised to find out the Red Army was stupid large and actually possessed a large industrial base

[jade skiff]

Isolation-ish

[light moat]

God Loves You

[high parrot]

Also the french and dutch, tho the dutch wouldn't do much

[fair hearth]

Vichy France kinda was on Japan's side

Well they hated the Japanese

But since they were under Germany's thumb they're stuck in this situation lol

Hence why Japan got French Indochina without a fight

[high parrot]

Meh

[rustic dove]

Germany succeed mostly in ww2 because almost everyone else sucked

Once they actually hit prepared forces Britain,rearmoured Soviet Union and Americans they did way worse

Yes I know this isn’t the only reason why

But all the enemies Germany faced in the beginning were weak France had been devastated by ww1 and had a bad military culture at the time and polish military was outdated

[hot sinew]

Honestly I'd mostly pin the success to luck

But ok

[rustic dove]

Fair but the other main forces they hit were bad Balkan militaries and a under defended Soviet Union as well

[light moat]

Soviet Union was a 23 year old Nation at this point, Poland had to deal with the USSR as well as Germany, the US just was in the great depression until ww2

I cant argue about France

[hot sinew]

France was luck

[light moat]

not rlly

[hot sinew]

It was bad strategy on the french side the way I see it

[light moat]

the way i see it is a soldier high on pervatin can defeat a soldier that is sober

(jk)

[hot sinew]

Thx for saying you're joking

I wouldn't notice otherwise lol

But honestly

Sheer power wise, France really didn't have to lose

It was a loss based on bad strategy on the french side

[rustic dove]

Fair point but the Soviet Union and Poland military in early war years still sucked the polish were still using horses

[hot sinew]

Germans relied on France having a bad strategy (pretty much) which is essentially luck

[light moat]

so were the Italians

[hot sinew]

Not really fair to say that

Horses were used all the time

[light moat]

France not extending maginot line

[rustic dove]

Yes the Italians sucked to so did Romania

[light moat]

The Germans used horses also

[light moat]

Noone remembers Romania much

[hot sinew]

And it's not like the Poles would go charging on horses with sabers, they'd only really use them for transport.

The cavalry units were essentially infantry which could move quicker and with more gear thanks to a large amount of horses

[hot sinew]

They wanted to extend it into Belgium but it refused

Not really just the french fault

[rustic dove]

Ok the horses weren’t a very fair comparison

[hot sinew]

And imo Romania did decent

[rustic dove]

Sad 😦

[hot sinew]

They're known for their failure at Stalingrad

[light moat]

Horses were normally used for transporting messages in less militarily developed countries

[hot sinew]

But otherwise they were pretty decent. Not great, not terrible so to say

[rustic dove]

That was later in the war when the soviets got their act together

[light moat]

i was talking about extending it on the French Belgian border

[jade skiff]

(Germany used horses as primary logistical tool)

[hot sinew]

They were used by everyone

[hot sinew]

Exactly

I once heard the figure of 80% at the beginning of the war

But I can't back it up

I think Germany was actually really reliant on horses

More so than others

[rustic dove]

Yeah but the polish military might of been outdated when 10% of the army was Cavalry units

[jade skiff]

10% isn't that bad by 1939 standards though

[hot sinew]

And cavalry was pretty objectively better than regular infantry

[jade skiff]

Not really

[hot sinew]

Except for a bigger need for horse food idk

Not a horse expert

[rustic dove]

Horse food grows on the ground

You should probably go touch some right now

Jk

[jade skiff]

Infantry Divisions were at least somewhat equipped with Regular and Anti-tank artillery

[hot sinew]

Sure, but if you've got a big unit then there might mot be enough

Or when it's winter

[hot sinew]

And cavalry wasn't?

[hot sinew]

It's 11 PM so probably not rn lol

[fair hearth]

Ye

Cavalry kinda sucked for the defense though

[rustic dove]

Horses are native to the Eurasian steppe where the war would have happened I think they would of figured it out by eating the dead grass

[fair hearth]

Can't really have a horse bing chilling on a trench ya know

[jade skiff]

Nvm, i checked, it did

[hot sinew]

You can leave it behind

[fair hearth]

Someone still has to tend for those horses

[hot sinew]

As Wikipedia details, cavalry units were used as a mobile reserve

ie, to quickly react to opportunities or problems on the front

[jade skiff]

There is a reason why people used trucks whenever available

[hot sinew]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_cavalry

[fair hearth]

Trucks are just a less of a hassle to maintain

Plus faster

[hot sinew]

Sure but cavalry was better than infantry without motorization

[fair hearth]

And unlike horses

[hot sinew]

That's my case

[fair hearth]

You can mass produce them

[hot sinew]

(except for cost)

[fair hearth]

Sometimes

[hot sinew]

You can mass breed horses

[jade skiff]

In that case, fair enough

[hot sinew]

I'm pretty sure

[fair hearth]

Cant really make a horse in a day

[hot sinew]

Alr then, build a truck in a day

[rustic dove]

You can’t later in the Napoleonic wars Napoleon ran out of horses so he couldn’t move as fast to defend France

[fair hearth]

A day is more than enough for a truck

[jade skiff]

Ford, GMC, ZiS, Opel say hello

[hot sinew]

Sure, but Germany constantly had a shortage of trucks

How come?

There's a limited supply of everything

[fair hearth]

Rubber

[hot sinew]

Like rubber

[rustic dove]

Oil

[hot sinew]

Or workforce

oil

[fair hearth]

Mostly rubber

[hot sinew]

There you go

[fair hearth]

Rubber was prioritized for aircrafy production

[jade skiff]

There were literally millions of horse casualties on German side alone in WW1

[rustic dove]

No they had the work force just no rubber or oil

[fair hearth]

And even then they still had shortages

[hot sinew]

They also lost a large number of trucks, duh 🙄