The Vault, some OP generals really need to be nerfed immediately

[quartz current]

I have to say this as long as the game’s balance is ruined. If devs or lovers decide to ignore, I can say let it be terrible just deserves.

In Classic 1v1 or Deathmatch 2v2, there are still numerous players using Vault, and I heard it has been long time Vault doesn’t get nerfed completely. After that I have checked it was more last year. Meanwhile UC damage and speed boost, it’s literally buffed and busted.

Not to mention, these 2 generals Giantlord Sightless and Sicklebear status aren’t changed. They have some potential nerfs to be balanced and nowadays it would be inevitable for F2W players to lose every game and due to some of them would rather buying generals.

If you agree with it, hope you can react emoji here
⬆️

Here is my nerfing idea and Gameplay example from exx:

stickwar3://watchReplay?guid=51c6d67a-cec0-fe2c-b147-a05c016d0000

[timid acorn]

Why are we killing base vault?

The better option is making base vault better while making it a net nerf for bastion 1 and bastion 2 vault

[quartz current]

So bonus above 10% and less bonus like 200?

Do you think it’s proper

[hazy locust]

What you need to do is build your units in time, before your opponent uses the enchantment and while they're gathering more gold. This only works in Classic 1v1 or 2v2. You have to be on time, distracting your opponent with a unit that builds and has little build time, or building and training miners. It's better to gather more gold first and then gather crystals. Just do it quickly.

[hazy locust]

It would be better if that enchantment were nerfed as well.

[timid acorn]

Here is a change that the balance team proposed.

In fact

have the whole doc

https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTwmCGlkbpiSm0ohcJkmuMUxI1Yob0bbkKCABgKoYJI8S4guFVtLspgbPsZ7_Fgu9AP8SLUasMqjj_r/pub

[quartz current]

Alr

I agree that

The most I care just general

[timid acorn]

It keeps vault in a state where you can see it being used without bastion upgrades, still usable with bastion upgrades, but not OP like it is currently.

[hazy locust]

Salvager's Smithy is the worst of all, right?

Because I understand more or less that this enchantment is part of the vault of prudence

[hazy locust]

By combining it with that enchantment to the vault of prudence

[hazy locust]

I React with ⬆️

[past roost]

oh fuck nah my gameplay is here

is that the one where they lose their whole shadowstack

both generals

and i still cant touch statue

[quartz current]

Yes

[past roost]

lol

[quartz current]

It’s an example if they are combining

[past roost]

fuck that shit

[hazy locust]

I'd say we'll have to wait for more generals and compare who's the strongest, because that way we can take the strongest general and nerf them, the strongest general (with high damage) and nerf them, the general who isn't very usable (I know it's Magis and needs a balance change or their other ability) and buff them, and the general with a short cooldown and a short duration and nerf them.

I don't know, I'd say that making balance changes would be good, like the one they made with this GLS, which they tried to buff (balance changes = the damage is still affected by GLS).

[hazy locust]

I would say that GLS needs to increase the number of builds to 12.

Marrowkai (9 POP) + GLS (12 POP) = Kai rider (21 POP)

[quartz current]

But I don’t think kai rider needed too much

Just 17 at most

[quartz current]

Btw I forget to change bear mode unlock by 6 sickles died

[glass axle]

the last vault nerf was around may 2025 where bastion scaling went from 500/1000 to 300/600

even then vault remains the most powerful mythic and the most powerful enchantment after maybe only wall

[quartz current]

It looks awful

Though I wasn’t on that game cuz I quit for a while

[lyric shore]

The hell is that dmg

[quartz current]

+13.7 extra up to 14 is insane

[twin locust]

Sicklebear + CA is basically damn near impossible to touch

[lyric shore]

Real

Imma play again when gls have a nerf lol

[shell blade]

Sightless hp nerf is little too much
1600 - 1750 is prob what i would do

Also Self-less Sickles got nerfed way too hard

2 - 3 seconds per sickle

[twin locust]

that shit needs to get nerfed hard

way too much value for early defense

[gaunt root]

wtf is that T dead change

overall i dislike about half of the suggestions

[gaunt root]

but Id def prefer half of that over what we currently have

[quartz current]

Bro, Sicklebear in standard is already strong to against basic troops. His recall of free sickles is strengthening shadowrip vault in the replay I have showed. Unless increases his price for less nerfs he can get for balance.

[rocky wave]

@vagrant cradle

🐧

[vagrant cradle]

Whaaat

[uneven cargo]

What do you think about activates at 1000g and gives 10/13/16% interest at base/S1/S2? Could increase to 10/15/20 and 8k gold cap if that's too weak

[steel atlas]

why would you do that to my tdead 🥀

[gaunt root]

bro made status effects a lot more cracked while also nerfing cure making just healing ward the only good source of cure
other decks are forced to rush temple 2 if they're running cure

[steel atlas]

imo best way to nerf heal sources would be to add a secondary tick that actually cures. so HW healing 4hp/s, but every 3rd second it cures ONE status effect per target?

might be a slightly biased opinion because i use BB tdeads

[quartz current]

Better nerf meric’s heal value to 10 or less

[gaunt root]

imo cure sources should have their healing reduced based on curing
that way status effects wont get totally fkd and actually do smthin to the opponent even if they have cure

[steel atlas]

what is her exact heal value currently?

[quartz current]

Cure on temple is a huge effect

[quartz current]

15

[steel atlas]

i agree with that too. I personally think cure should be slightly slower than the healing itself

[timid acorn]

You are heavily underestimating the buff

[steel atlas]

maybe meric has a secondary heal button that only cures rather than heals, or heals way less? and the AI would always prioritize using cure whenever it sees a status effect

[steel atlas]

i dont really like it. It seems like the buff is just trying to make ground eclispors

why lower their health and increase their light damage by that margin. I do like the splash damage, but i feel like the rework makes the troop way too different than its currently designed to be

[gaunt root]

it's more like an early game E giant lol

[steel atlas]

yea mini egiant

[gaunt root]

the splash idea is straight up just bad

[timid acorn]

What are you talking about? Only merics were nerfed in terms of curing.

[timid acorn]

And why is that?

[gaunt root]

status effects are cracked

[steel atlas]

i think a tdead buff should look like: Increased projectile speed, with slight range increase (this way eclipsors and archers cant just DODGE every tdead shot). Maybe a slight increase to the POISON damage (its main wild card) may be enough as a buff too in my opinon.

[gaunt root]

cure is just as cracked too
making the effects feel weak

[steel atlas]

what do you think about this @timid acorn

[timid acorn]

Just makes stacking DoT viable late game

[steel atlas]

i mean

is that bad

[timid acorn]

The point of the cure changes (which... there was like one lol) is to make DoT have a more clear role of being strong early to mid game

[timid acorn]

Yeah?

[steel atlas]

hmm

[steel atlas]

then what about

[steel atlas]

^

[gaunt root]

cure being locked behind t2 is way too big of a nerf imo

I agree they need a nerf
but this? nah

[steel atlas]

currently cure sources and status effects are essentially just gambling. If they run cures your status effect is completely useless. if they dont run any cure you usually get a free win solely due to status effects

both need slight nerfs and reworks

[gaunt root]

yeah

effects and cures have been overtuned way too much

[gloomy fiber]

Need full rework to both to get them to not be fcked up tbh.

[steel atlas]

real

[gloomy fiber]

Rn it's quite literally all or nothing.

[gaunt root]

yeah literally

[timid acorn]

It doesn't change as much as you think. It makes DoT act as a semi counter to merics in the early to mid game as they have to position their merics better to make sure they don't waste mana constantly healing off chip damage etc.

[steel atlas]

if cure is nerfed hard then the game gets even more boring with status effects just carrying bad players

[gaunt root]

BB has 10 fkn burn on t2

[gloomy fiber]

ACID RAIN.

[steel atlas]

🥀

[gaunt root]

dw
we're forced to use ward now

[gloomy fiber]

Rn spreading DoT is like easier than ever.

[timid acorn]

Lord forbid a F tier card gets some use. Even then, if you use your merics properly you can make sure that they are not constantly wasting mana healing chip damage and actually healing proper health lost

[steel atlas]

i think lesser healing when curing a status effect (or no healing at all) would be slightly better. On top of this i would prefer seeing only ONE status effect being cured rather than all status effects at once

[gaunt root]

what better positioning are you talking about?

[timid acorn]

Chib, do you even play the game anymore? You are making claims that seem very out of place for you

[gaunt root]

I do play

[steel atlas]

or maybe takes double the mana to cure a status effects? Merics cure fewer status effects per/s this way

[gloomy fiber]

Tbh back in 2024 I was straight up beating ward users with BB tdead.

[gaunt root]

poison will fk over merics until they get t2

[gaunt root]

true
that cooldown

[gloomy fiber]

Trying to force temple 2 for cure is just a bandaid tbh.

The main problem remains.

[timid acorn]

It is legit using the upgrade system to fix the rps of the game

"rework the deck system!"

Use the damn upgrade rework to fix the game

Y'all just complain and complain and complain about the wrong things

[steel atlas]

this really isnt fixing it though

[gloomy fiber]

I still don't like the current upgrade system tbh.

[steel atlas]

i would much rather even see a meric healing speed nerf that just increases as you obtain temple 2

rather than cure itself being locked behind t2

[strong obsidian]

Are you guys arguing about meric nerf cause if so they heal too fast and recharge super quickly

[gaunt root]

the cure being locked behind t2 is straight up BS

[gloomy fiber]

Funneling everything into just 5 upgrades create genuinely disgusting powerspikes very quickly into a match.

[steel atlas]

^^^

[gaunt root]

they do need a healing nerf, yeah
we're arguing about the cure nerf Civil suggested

[strong obsidian]

Meric pretty much makes toxic dead useless

[gaunt root]

or maybe
just maybe
make curing cost extra mana out of their mana bar

[gloomy fiber]

Spear spawner + dead spawner temple 1 was hard meta then spear spawner moved to bastion then spear spawner + tunnel bastion 1 became even more hard meta.

[gaunt root]

that way status effects can reduce their healing and actually do something meaningful

[quartz current]

Meric has too much cost on standard, I don’t think cure on T2 is a good nerf, the best option is reduce the heal value, speed or hp

[gloomy fiber]

Also CJ changed armory and forge back to 10/20 as if all the prior buffs to archerspam wasn't enough.

[quartz current]

It will make players to do Chaos deck than Order ones

[past roost]

meric is fine as is

[gaunt root]

no not rly

[gloomy fiber]

Ppl about to roll up with thera lol.

[past roost]

most units dont even sync with it

:/

so u dont see it much

itsgood but its not insane rlly

also effects rn should be good asf

most decks have like low anti air

so eclipsor BB TT is cracked

or vamp whatever

most eclipsor users are just low tier

and rely on tower

or whatver

[uneven cargo]

[gaunt root]

the rest are afraid of facing archis

[past roost]

im not syaing u or rlly most of the known eclipsor users

[past roost]

archis is a bit too strong rn

but merics

cure

fine

[past roost]

wanna know how to avoid getting countered by heal?

[gloomy fiber]

Archer² genuinely unkillable.

[past roost]

agreed

well

hard to kill

and his light damage is so crazy hes even a significant threat to shadows IN late game

thats crazy

[uneven cargo]

Civils suggestion was befire the UC update

[past roost]

general damage in general

[gaunt root]

how?

[past roost]

is too high

[past roost]

dont run a deck that relies on status effects

[uneven cargo]

It's mostly meric wall at top top level that's a problem

[past roost]

[gaunt root]

does that rly excuse him of wanting T deads with poison splash and nerfing meric cure to be locked behind t2?

[past roost]

is it??

i think meric magikill wall is fine

[gaunt root]

I assume the splash works with other effects

[past roost]

[past roost]

t1 more

but thatd be good

[gaunt root]

so imagine that 9 tick dmg in early game with BB T dead

[past roost]

interesting idea

[uneven cargo]

I already saw this balance doc, I am not a fan of either change but I can see effort in each of them

[past roost]

yea

i dont like it but its unique

fs

[uneven cargo]

At this point we need a new doc cuz his current suggestions don't work

With UC

[past roost]

docs dont work

[timid acorn]

Yeah

It won't rn

[past roost]

devs dont give a fuck

[uneven cargo]

And we all know civil is not makingf a new doc

Cuz CJ won't read

[gaunt root]

that's not even the UC change problem tbh

[past roost]

devs fr dont gaf

[gaunt root]

well

[gaunt root]

for some at least

[uneven cargo]

It's just that the meta has shifted

[gloomy fiber]

Splash DoT in early, what can go wrong...

[past roost]

nothing

jut dont spam tanks

????

meric cure being behind t2 is way too big

[uneven cargo]

Actually BB tdead with spalsh would be kinda peak

[past roost]

t1 i can see

maybe

[gaunt root]

real

[past roost]

t2 is huge

[gloomy fiber]

They just be making most relevant generals do an extra 25% dmg, for no cost, just because.

[past roost]

thats actually so expensvie

[gaunt root]

imagine BB TT T dead dmg

[past roost]

yea, and sickle bear and gls didnt get as buffed from it and theyre still genuinely some of most op shit

[uneven cargo]

18 DOT

[gaunt root]

yeah

[gloomy fiber]

Singlehandedly making zilly's hands not viable in the vast majority of use cases.

[past roost]

it just increased the gspam power creep

[past roost]

grasp???

[gaunt root]

17, no?

[past roost]

yea goz sucks

always

[uneven cargo]

TT is 3 right

[past roost]

:/

[uneven cargo]

Is tdead 4 posion or 5

[gaunt root]

at t2 ye

[gaunt root]

4

[uneven cargo]

I am peak math

[past roost]

goz could be balanced and mid if it was t1 when upgardes wre like

300

[gloomy fiber]

Rn current double general >> current double mythic.

[quartz current]

Original Toxic effect is 4+4(TT)+10 (BB) so it’s 18

[uneven cargo]

TT is only 3

[gaunt root]

TT is +3 poison

[quartz current]

Oh nvm

[timid acorn]

GoZ is what we call a fun gimmick current card that cannot work in high elo just like illuminate. The card should give some bonus effect alongside the double mythic before you get t2 (maybe 6 mythic max?)

[quartz current]

But still OP

[gloomy fiber]

It's hard to find a case where double mythic is actually good and equally it's difficult to find a case where double general is downright BAD bad.

[gaunt root]

or perhaps 2nd mythic at half power on t1

[timid acorn]

This was suggested by someone on our team

[gloomy fiber]

My idea is we gate double general behind zilly's hands temple 1.

[gaunt root]

I'm not all that sure abt it tho

[timid acorn]

but we scrapped it due to how it would work with vault + complicated to see if it would be balanced or not

[gloomy fiber]

Half a vault lowkey sounds like a "half a kitten" situation.

[timid acorn]

It is hard to see if it can work or not, and would just make balancing mythics in the future a pain as well

[past roost]

mythics are just bad

like

in general

only double mythic thats alright is like vault something

otherwise

nothing gives significant power

[gaunt root]

vault is honestly just another whole problem

[gloomy fiber]

They're nice and all but you only really need one at most.

[past roost]

vault has been the strongest for a long time

[past roost]

yea

[gloomy fiber]

Generals? You can stack them as hard as possible and somehow it will have a use.

[past roost]

and even then no mythic options are great

[gaunt root]

I rly dislike how you can straight up just spam units

[gloomy fiber]

7 generals? Straight up STRONG in both classic and DM.

[gaunt root]

with no problem
no matter their cost

[past roost]

also how easy it is to get

2 mins is nothing with strong defense

genuinely nothing

[quartz current]

Without sicklebear or strong unit like shadow that wouldn’t literally work well

[timid acorn]

Yeah

General spam is carried by sicklebear and GLS

[gaunt root]

you can activate it even earlier if you dont get attacked

[twin locust]

Mostly Sicklebear + GLS is carry them
Both of them makes Melee Push an absolute obsolete

[timid acorn]

Since the splash damage is so high that no melee deck can push them early game

[past roost]

not rlly

[gaunt root]

I managed to get it going by around 1:30-1:50

[gaunt root]

ofc this is assuming you dont get rushed

[neat girder]

We are just missing an auto build

[past roost]

in standard ull always get abt1:50-2:10

[past roost]

with zero defense

[twin locust]

It's damn near impossible to push when Sicklebear is out with some CA

Not to mention
They fucking buffed AI abuse

[quartz current]

If they don’t consider these 2 generals needs nerfs that means people either quit or spend money rn

[past roost]

holy fucking shit yes

wait

howd they buff ai abuse

[timid acorn]

The hold command thingy

[gloomy fiber]

Tbh with current 25% general UC bonus most generals are just leaving units in the dust completely now.

[past roost]

counter with ai abuse

[timid acorn]

It was like that before

[twin locust]

Buffed it to the point where you don't even need UC anymore

[past roost]

thats not rlly a buff

[past roost]

???????????

[twin locust]

Because of fuck ass hold command

[past roost]

how

[twin locust]

Individual hold command

[past roost]

what actually

benefits

[twin locust]

That shit got buffed soo hard

[past roost]

bc rlly its mostly shadows

:/

and giants

[twin locust]

Any units that were not them suffered a lot

[past roost]

i havent seen anyone actually use it ingame

idk if many know

its not rlly ai abuse

its mostly counter to ai abuse

[twin locust]

@still dawn abused the fuck out of it

[past roost]

lolz

[past roost]

i think i used it on him

tehe

[twin locust]

The system got soo trash to the point
I might just retire

[past roost]

woops

[twin locust]

And just play Gacha Games

Day by day
SWS becomes unenjoyable

Never getting the balance change that we absolutely needed it

[steel atlas]

I personally agree with this, or meric mana regeneration and healing speed being tied with temple upgrades

this way there's a very easy and clear way to nerf meric heal speed without just making them useless

And make bubble cost a decent amount of mana 🔥

[gaunt root]

their heal speed might still be a bit too cracked

[gaunt root]

hmmmm

[steel atlas]

Actually nevermind

With how trash the AI is

All the merics will always be out of mana

So this won't work

[gaunt root]

pretty much

[steel atlas]

exactly, that's why we need a pretty decent heal speed nerf (or mana regeneration nerf since they'd both end up the same)

With temple 2 just increasing the speed

Considering civils opinion was DoT effects not being stronger late-game, I'm assuming he'd agree with this too? Considering it makes merics better against DoT effects by late game

[quartz current]

300+ comments post

[timid acorn]

Upgrades should not be forced

[steel atlas]

would temple 2 for cure not be forced aswell?

It's not like merics would go from being trash to good when comparing level 0-2

[gaunt root]

🤨

[steel atlas]

I was thinking more like temple 0 = standard meric with slightly less healing speed, or more mana for curing targets

Temple 1 = bubble like usual

Temple 2 = slightly increased mana speed to make up for cure taking more mana. Still slightly worse than the current meric, but not an extreme nerf

[timid acorn]

I meant in a general regard. That was the point of the temple rework in the document and stuff like the manaburst change etcx

Also, you don't even need curing in every match up with merics, even if the enemy has a DoT effect

Lemme make an example

Actually, I had this convo too many times with different people. Imma just find the example I used before

[past roost]

they kinda r in a lotta stuff

vamp

vault

tunnel spiriton

a lotta generals

[steel atlas]

I mean merics in general still need a nerf just because of how goated their heal and shield is

[timid acorn]

I meant in the sense of current spiritions for example. Going for bastion 2 is not needed in bastion rush. I usually go for it, but I have watched and played many games where I choose to go for something different instead.

wow

that message took forever to send

sry

[neat girder]

Rework sws

[twin locust]

delete sws

no sws

no balance

[wind moss]

That is literally the point

The whole point of cure on T2 is forcing unfavorable upgrade to get something so insanely strong in the matchup

[past roost]

if tower stall was still a thing id say no but since its not

ehhh

maybe t1

[wind moss]

T1 is not expensive enough to give status effects a chance

[past roost]

its just when ive used spearcher bo heal from event decks

[wind moss]

^

[past roost]

acid rain, voltaic

are genuinely just

devastatimg

like just acid ran

or scorch

all they gotta do is clock ur archers

[wind moss]

Acid rain underrated

[past roost]

ane no cure bam

literally just trading 200 crystal for 900 gold

also

wanna know the MAIN deck that it nerfs

spearcher meric

[wind moss]

I agree that civil's change isn't exactly the best but putting cure on T1 instead is genuinely missing the whole point of putting it on T2

[past roost]

and do we rlly need to nerf merichu further

[past roost]

ur right

both options are bad

tbh

but theres not rlly a third

is there

just leaving it as it is i guess

[wind moss]

Honestly yes

There are still some aspects about merichu that definitely need a nerf

[past roost]

[wind moss]

Like meric cure being too damn strong

Or spears genuinely shutting down a few DPS units

Or archers being so ungodly cheap with kytchu

[past roost]

fine maybe have it unlockable behind t1

[wind moss]

^

T1 is nothing

[past roost]

if its t2 ur genuinely forced to turtle bc any effect means running back to base

or losign a whole archer stack

imagine magispam or vault just throwing acid rain in

[wind moss]

Merics have actual healing too

You had to run back because you couldn't regain HP lost from the status effects

[past roost]

also imagine scorch

[wind moss]

Scorch's main damage isn't even the burn effect

[wind moss]

^

[past roost]

it still buffs scorch and hella easy cards

[wind moss]

Merics shouldn't be completely shutting down cure tho

[past roost]

i have a weird idea

make it t2

[wind moss]

Cure behind T1 isn't expensive and slow enough to stop that from happening

[past roost]

but make brilliance ggive it at t1

[wind moss]

I don't see the point of that, especially since brilliance already makes temple cheaper

[past roost]

bc t2 is stupid fucking expensive

thats it

[wind moss]

Yeah, that's the point of putting cure behind T2, it's stupid expensive

[trim sequoia]

"it's not insane"

There's a reason everyone ditched hhw spearcher to meric spearcher after the meric rework lmao

It's prime hhw not current hhw

[trim sequoia]

It's not

U guys are simulating the scenario that the enemy can consistently spread AoE while not paying the cost for it

Even then this kind of bs only affect archer most

And early melee swarm deck but in order to even utilize the doT effect u must have a stable eco and resources

Meanwhile swarm decks rn are bast rush lmao

The only possible way for a unit(not spell) to spread doT consistently without missing out the benefit of UC other stuff are generals and only archis and kytchu are range

Even then meric heal for 15

15 is a fucking lot

And remember that for the first 10 seconds they heal almost 15 per second anyway

And only decrease by approximately 50-60% speed when Mana drained

[trim sequoia]

This is half as good as hhw for one single meric

Honestly I'm fine with meric cure locking behind t2

It's only nerf Spearcher meric most even then spearcher meric usually have the strength to punch thru most doT decks

Acid rain finally get a good use as a way to force enemy to retreat is good

Even then this only work against archer anyway

[twilit orchid]

He's trying to convey something to us...

[steel atlas]

why not just make cure take more mana or give no healing 😔

[gloomy fiber]

Last time meric had separate heal and cure actions, they straight up got hard countered by DoT and became irrelevant lol.

As I said, applying and reapplying status effects in sw3 is extremely easy.

[gaunt root]

yeah

[steel atlas]

hmm

[gaunt root]

but do note that their healing speed wasnt as fast as the current one

[steel atlas]

Guess I wasn't here back then

then the best nerf would just be nerfing their healing speed. They heal so quick to the point where 3 merics end up removing DoT effects as quick as HW 🥀

[gaunt root]

also another problem with that separation is that they both were still 1 ability

and not two

[uncut comet]

I liked ur balance ideas

Only for gls and vop

Bcz then Sicklebear will become a waste

6 s is too much

[lyric shore]

Lmao

[still dawn]

In my opinion,vault is a very embarrassing card.It always very strong or very weakness.

[glass axle]

it always very strong period

[wind moss]

Vault was basically useless for a good while

Until CJ decided to directly change vault

It's been bullshit OP since

[glass axle]

oh thats what they meant

yeah i remember how weak it was in early 2024

[lyric shore]

Yeah i tried it too and did like nothing but sit idle in my deck

[quartz current]

I think GLS hitbox needs to be fixed, people prob forgot and not mention it

[twin locust]

He was already fixed no?

CJ already mentioned it

Not mentioned it but included in the update logs I am pretty sure

[quartz current]

Real where?

I literally saw it reach still much, and that range shouldn’t be long

[paper crystal]

What about this

[paper crystal]

Making it more micro-based

For eg

While remains normal in late game

[real lagoon]

Since when did Illuminate speed up Magic Units? I thought that was Mana Burst

[neat girder]

It does speed magic units

It's just like 5-10% so it's unnoticeable

[gaunt root]

mana burst also does that iirc