Archer rework

[grand loom]

ello

[dim herald]

Hello before we review thos

*this

[grand loom]

i didnt get it, so your nerfing dmg but not?

[dim herald]

Well yes. Practically speaking, archer are still relatively good, until you start massing them then they start falling off.

But it's mostly to nerf it but try and not nerf it to oblivion.

[grand loom]

lowkey u should nerf them to oblivion

they have been needed in almost every deck

[dim herald]

I blame Eclipsors to why I can't nerf it to oblivion.

It should be good against those. But not [FILTERED] everyone because of it.

[grand loom]

nerf them also

[dim herald]

Then we get ShadowWrath problems.

See the issue with nerfing it like so?

But I guess you like ShadowWrath so that is a thing.

[frank blaze]

Magikill

The biggest problem with nerfing archers isn't eclipsors, it's magikill

A good magikill deck is unstoppable unless you use archers

Eclipsors still have some counters other than archers

[dim herald]

Good point.

[grand loom]

magikill need a rework

their CD should be reduced heavily

[dim herald]

Ngl, if Magikill was well weaker, it would feel awful for it's cost. I am not interested in afk simulator.

[thorny egret]

Archers with built in blazing bolts ?

that’s kind of lame no?

what if I wanna use glacial fletching

This leaves the blazing bolt enchantment on its own in a weird place and also kinda removes some of the archer charm of being simple bow wielders having them all have magical bows by default

[dim herald]

You can use that and that causes both burn and slow.

[dim herald]

Actually, irl, arrows can and sometimes are lit on fire and used.

[dim herald]

@frank blaze

Oh wait oops.

I forgot you already read this

Oh, shoot I was supposed to call the other 2.

@carmine jewel

@nimble oriole

Can you three head here?

[nimble oriole]

@frank blaze i am not a big fan of swords doing extra damage to heavy either

[frank blaze]

This is going to be off-topic

[dim herald]

@carmine jewel

[frank blaze]

Anyway, this turns archers from main DPS to support DPS

Which honestly doesn't fit them

[nimble oriole]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBxdTkddHaE

this is all i'm gonna say

[frank blaze]

They're a spam unit

[nimble oriole]

notice how they shot a bunch of arrows at armour and the armour held up

irl when armour holds up, the user doesn't die

[dim herald]

Ok stop. Armor, is real expensive.

[nimble oriole]

and speartons were supposed to be real expensive

[frank blaze]

Notice how stick war isn't irl?

[nimble oriole]

notice how stick war literally copies irl to some extent?

[dim herald]

Based on their appearance, not really, they seem to be a copy of Spartans. Which did not wear full steel plate armor.

[frank blaze]

The fck else is it supposed to be based on?

[dim herald]

They would literally cost about a giant if they were that tanky.

[frank blaze]

Everything copies irl to some extent

Do you think the devs are fcking aliens?

[nimble oriole]

spartans had a giant hole that they used to dispose of all the not strong spartans

[dim herald]

Also. Archers would be expensive. Or take forever to train.

[nimble oriole]

spamming rng to win the genetic lottery is expensive

[dim herald]

Crossbows on the other hand.

Are easy to use.

[frank blaze]

If sw was realistic, giants would be 1 shotting everything

And units would be dying literally every second

[nimble oriole]

ok where does that one come from

[frank blaze]

Weapons are lethal

[nimble oriole]

not when they're not being used yet

i.e. in early game

[frank blaze]

A normal guy with a simple kitchen knife could kill someone in seconds

[frank blaze]

. . .

Swordwrath have swords

Sicklewrath have sickles

Archidons have bows

Speartons have spears

Hell, even a pickaxe could kill someone if the swing lands

[nimble oriole]

hence why i have no idea why everything that deals bonus to heavies doesn't also deal an even bigger bonus to lights

threw me off for a whole day when i investigated that

[frank blaze]

It's because of game balance

This is a game

More specifically, a competitive game

It needs to be balanced

[dim herald]

Actually, except for the speartons (block) that's correct as they don't have armor and they are just throwing themselves at each other.

[frank blaze]

In the early game, you're usually UCing the spear (if you're not, you're playing spear start wrong) meaning you're not blocking and you're stabbing at full force

[dim herald]

Oh, and the throwing themselves at each other was a figure of speech.

[frank blaze]

If it's sword v sword, it's no longer a figure of speech

Them swords be leaping the second they see an opponent

[dim herald]

I meant if they actually get a full formation, and I was cross comparing to irl. But yes. most analogies you said is true.

Ngl. I need to sleep

Gn.

[nimble oriole]

fine. don't make archers ineffectual against heavies

but at least simulate arrows colliding with each other

either have individual troops take capped damage from archers

[gusty trail]

Archidon is just in a weird limbo, where they are op, but you cannot nerf them without them becoming useless. They're terrible against heavy unit spam early and they are extremely frail without meric.

[nimble oriole]

or, if multiple arrows are too close together, only keep one in flight and destroy the rest

[nimble oriole]

just nerf merics

then there will be no such thing as "negate all archers"

[gusty trail]

Yeah, I do make a post about potential Nerf to meric earlier.

[nimble oriole]

also

idea

1. be able to order archers to stop shooting

2. have archers take critical damage (reduced to 1 hp) while they are shooting

[nimble oriole]

that is

if anything hits them

even stray fire

they are reduced to 1 hp

[frank blaze]

Wtf

[gusty trail]

WtF

[frank blaze]

At this point just say that you despise archers 🙏

[nimble oriole]

from stick war 1 they were supposed to be glass cannons

[gusty trail]

A bomber is just a dead sentence.

[nimble oriole]

a bomber gives you the choice to go for high risk high reward

[frank blaze]

In sw1, everything died fast with high DPS

Even spears didn't last that long

[gusty trail]

Just because they are glass cannon do not mean they die to pretty much everything.

[nimble oriole]

that's the thing, with high dps

glass cannons are not supposed to need high dps to take down

[gusty trail]

Scorch or Wrathnar with just delete them.

[frank blaze]

This too

[nimble oriole]

unless you order them to stop shooting

did you not read that part

[frank blaze]

Just because it's a glass Cannon unit doesn't mean that it has to be so squishy that they die after 2-3 shots

[nimble oriole]

either the archer focuses on shooting which leaves him completely vulnerable to attackers

[frank blaze]

And when you order them to stop shooting, you fcking lose because you don't have enough DPS anymore

[nimble oriole]

or the archer focuses on getting the hell out of dodge which, i guess, let's give him some chance to take 0 damage from an attack

[frank blaze]

Even worse

[nimble oriole]

if your archers are constantly under fire that is a you problem

[frank blaze]

Scorch is enough RNG problem

[frank blaze]

You can't stop archers from being under some danger

Backline sniping is a necessity against them

Everyone does it

[nimble oriole]

and that some danger is dealt with via stop shooting for literally a bit

[frank blaze]

There's almost always at least 1 thing attacking them

[frank blaze]

That *literally a bit" could lose you the entire damn match

[gusty trail]

Yeah, A DPS units not doing damage. Yeah you lose.

[nimble oriole]

useless when opponent cycles meric shield

[frank blaze]

Why do you think atreyos is so good for vault shadowripp?

It makes them retreat, even for just a few seconds

Sometimes, they don't even retreat, but forcing the opponent to focus down atreyos instead of being able to focus on your army is still disadvantageous for them

[nimble oriole]

so you're saying archers are not op after all

[frank blaze]

It's actually why classic shadowripp used spearos

[gusty trail]

Yeah.

[nimble oriole]

if it takes this much skill to use archers correctly

[nimble oriole]

bruh why complain about them then

[frank blaze]

They are OP (relative to current balance, otherwise they're actually balanced, most other stuff is just bad), but not so OP that you have to fcking nuke them

[nimble oriole]

if there are so many ways to deal with archers then they are hardly "op and need a nerf"

[frank blaze]

It's like nerfing the release juggs all the way down to 300 HP 10 damage 3 seconds attack speed

[nimble oriole]

op relative to current balance? bruh in the current balance you just listed out half a dozen ways to deal with them

that's not what i call "op"

[frank blaze]

Which is the minority

[nimble oriole]

so why are you worrying so much about minority

op is when you just put them down, hit a few buttons like a 5 yr old, and win

op is not high risk high reward

[frank blaze]

Sickles have been OP for so long but they were called trash because spearcher and spearclipsor, the most common strats but also a very small percentage of all the strats in-game, hardcountered them

[frank blaze]

Win against 95% but lost against the more common 5%

[frank blaze]

Because those became the most common used strats because they are the very few things that are strong

[nimble oriole]

define "most common strat" and "very small percentage of all strats"

[frank blaze]

There's a lot of archetypes in-game, but a few are more common due to those few being undoubtedly better than the rest and overshadowing them

[nimble oriole]

ok so what you're saying is

in the set of all strats

a subset that occupies 5% of the set

occurs 95% of the time

right?

[frank blaze]

Kinda

[nimble oriole]

i mean

as long as those strats themselves have counters

i don't see the problem

all game balance asks for is that there is no king of the hill

nor is there "anything can win"

that's what strategy is

you can't expect to be able to have a robot play for you and win

nor can you randomly tap buttons and win

[frank blaze]

The problem is that 90% of the archetypes just don't have a chance to win

[nimble oriole]

i don't see a problem with that

you didn't say 99%

you said 90%

you didn't even say 95%

[frank blaze]

So you get a really rigid meta where you can't even stand a chance unless you're using that's within that rigid meta

[nimble oriole]

there are multiple competing archetypes that can win, that's all that matters

[nimble oriole]

i mean... ya... that's the point?

what else do you want, a free for all anarchy of no strategy whatsoever?

that's relegated for the lower elos where noobs are just messing around doing things that look fun

[frank blaze]

"multiple"

There's no debate that only 1 archetype is dominant rn with like, 2 counters at most (which get countered by the other strong and common stuff)

[frank blaze]

I want game balance where every counter can be beaten with skill, where matches aren't a gamble and the meta is decks that genuinely require the most skill but aren't uncontestable

[nimble oriole]

every counter can be beaten with skill

[frank blaze]

No, no it can't

There are matchups that are genuinely just unwinnable

[nimble oriole]

let's say you use an awesome deck using all the intelligence of normal campaign ai

then i can win by simply rushing a shadow over to your statue, hitting it a few times, and rushing him back

[frank blaze]

Unless your opponent is a complete moron and plays so bad that you wonder if they're even a person at all or a bot

[nimble oriole]

because you can't use your deck properly i end up winning even with a shitty deck

[nimble oriole]

doesn't even have to be a shadow, it can be a crawler of all things

literally the weakest single unit in the game

and it can win if you're too dumb to garrison

that goes for every counter

just playing the counter does not guarantee a win

you still need to know how to use it

[nimble oriole]

"matches aren't a gamble" due to the nature of deck building in this game that is inevitably gonna happen

you don't want a gamble? then make everyone use the exact same deck

[nimble oriole]

"require the most skill but aren't uncontestable" i disagree, if you're genuinely the most skilled person in the whole world you should be winning every single match where you use the correct deck for your opponent

if all the cards are in your favour and you have the skills to use them should you not be guaranteed the win?

imagine me suggesting there is some chance, albeit tiny, that cristiano ronaldo would be able to lose a soccer game against a toddler

like that makes no sense right?

[gusty trail]

Kytchu is probably a good example for it. Kytchu relies on you maintaining pressure for you to get the most valued out of it.

This maybe a terrible example because Kytchu in some way is overpowered

[nimble oriole]

define "maintaining pressure"

all i know is to volley either their backlines or their statue

whichever is easier i guess

[dim herald]

Actually agreed.

[frank blaze]

If the game was balanced, every matchup (unless your deck is genuinely just stupid) would be winnable

[frank blaze]

That is the stupidest example you brought up

[frank blaze]

This basically brings back 2024 kytchu meta

Which was probably one of the worst metas

[brazen wind]

better than vault meta

[frank blaze]

Tbh we're still in vault meta

But it's not so rigid anymore

[nimble oriole]

define "stupid"

[frank blaze]

In this context?

Genuinely trash at the game

[nimble oriole]

yes

[nimble oriole]

again, define "trash"

[frank blaze]

Do you not know what trash is?

[nimble oriole]

there can be different definitions of trash

the one i'm thinking of is

you go in with a deck that's literally completely randomized cards

literally

you just tapped some buttons randomly

and when you go in

you also tap buttons randomly

[frank blaze]

Have you seen bronze decks?

[nimble oriole]

miner, some unit or other, upgrades, etc

[frank blaze]

The ones that have too many units and/or generals and no synergy?

[nimble oriole]

and can you agree with me that those should not belong at high elo?

[frank blaze]

Yes

Because they don't have synergy

[nimble oriole]

you just proved my point about not every deck should be winnable

you should not be able to bring a randomized deck and still win

[frank blaze]

The only way a deck without synergy would work is if the cards in the deck are just that OP, which wouldn't he happening in a balanced game

[nimble oriole]

that is not strategy

[frank blaze]

Those shtty decks are the exception.

A proper deck has synergy and a gameplan

[nimble oriole]

i mean... not a single card in the game can one shot every unit with 100% splash across the whole map, have infinite health, can attack as fast as you tap, require 1 gold, 1 second training time, and 1 population

[nimble oriole]

in a balanced game

there will be bad decks like i mentioned and you admitted

which will not win no matter what

and there will be good decks that are meta

[frank blaze]

As I said, those are the exception

[nimble oriole]

which are guaranteed to win if you know what you're doing

that's the nature of strategy

some "strategies" are so bad they don't deserve to be called strategies, and some strategies are so good if you use them you might as well be napoleon bonaparte

[frank blaze]

Guaranteed win decks are bad for balance

No matter how you look at it

A good example of what I'm suggesting is shadowripp vs merichu matchup

Sure, shadowripp has the advantage, but it's still not a guaranteed win

[nimble oriole]

and that's strategy

[frank blaze]

It's a skill based matchup for both sides

[nimble oriole]

if you want to win, avoid such decks, and gravitate towards meta decks

[frank blaze]

"meta deck" and "proper deck" are different stuff

Decks don't have to be meta to be good

[brazen wind]

what is synergy

sorry if im kind of stupid

[frank blaze]

"the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects."

[brazen wind]

oh ok

[nimble oriole]

if two equally skilled players play

and one chooses a better deck and one chooses a worse deck

should the the one who chose a better deck not be rewarded with the win?

[frank blaze]

It's not a guaranteed win for them tho

[frank blaze]

^

[brazen wind]

they probably have higher chances

[frank blaze]

In an equal skill matchup, while shadowripp does have the advantage, it's still not a guaranteed win for them