Pouncer Deads, Chaos Unit

[halcyon geode]

We have crawlers already

[wind creek]

crawlers are basically just weaker but faster swordwraths

[halcyon geode]

Yeah this also is a faster weaker swordwrath according to your logic

[wind creek]

its not fast

and the ability has a cooldown

the only thing major is that it has a 2nd life

[halcyon geode]

So it's slightly more expensive crawler with an ability and a second life

[wind creek]

This is basically just the same argument as where people would argue that speardeads are just cheaper tankier speartons

and who wouldn't want a complete dead family

[halcyon geode]

I don't

Since most of the purposes of the dead units overlap

[ember swift]

Nr

Deads are meant to be cheaper but weaker and more earlier game versions

[halcyon geode]

Spear dead could work if the devs got it right but I doubt it

[halcyon geode]

This idea is literally stronger than the crawler while also being more expensive

[wind creek]

There will be more generals than units in the future i guess

[ember swift]

That can't be right

[halcyon geode]

If there will then sw3 will be a balancing mess

[wind creek]

Its more of a "when" than an "if"

[halcyon geode]

That’s never gonna happen tho

[ember swift]

It is

[wind creek]

toxic deads arent early game

but I understand why

I wanted pouncer deads to be more of a chaos swordwrath but welp a couple people already disagreed

[ember swift]

Ok my point is deads are meant to be either weaker but cheaper or altered forms

[ember swift]

I don't

I need more deads

[wind creek]

ok

[ember swift]

Elementals won't be added in a while

[wind creek]

I don't think Stone Giants will even be added to the game

[ember swift]

Deads are still fun to play with though

[wind creek]

not even 1% chance

[ember swift]

I hope it does

They are epic giants to play with

[wind creek]

I agree

[wind creek]

probably comes alongside campaign

[ember swift]

Pouncer deads are like chaos shadowraths

But more altered compared to orders

[wind creek]

abilities? yeah. Stats? no

[halcyon geode]

The developers aren’t stupid

[ember swift]

Wdym they are both light backline assassins?

[ember swift]

No one implied that

[halcyon geode]

There is no way the developers are dumb enough to add more generals than units

[ember swift]

They won't but unintentionally they can

[wind creek]

founders and double generals for one unit tho

[ember swift]

King zarek is for all order

[wind creek]

theres a chance it could happen

[ember swift]

Petra is all chaos +gorgons if they get added

[ember swift]

Unintentionally yes

But it is small

It can likely happen only if some update got released early

"Unintentionally"

[wind creek]

do you think gorgons will be the same cost as merics or 500c

[ember swift]

Likely magikill costs

[wind creek]

dead kai/marrowkai are more of the chaos magikills

[ember swift]

Yes

But gorgons are powerful

[wind creek]

but yeah gorgons could be magikill cost

[ember swift]

They can poison and petrify

Not to mention they have an actual melee attack

With their snakes for hair

It's likely a high dps but with low damage

[wind creek]

I think gorgons being crystal only cost would be cool

[ember swift]

It's too similar to a spell

But yes

It would be cool

[wind creek]

a 'lil bit of gold?

[ember swift]

A little too expensive though

Something like 450c and 50g

[wind creek]

not if gorgon users would order their miners to mine crystal only

[ember swift]

Imagine gorgon spamm 💀

[wind creek]

wouldn't work tbh

[ember swift]

Imagine this

You spamm Gorgons

And entire army freezes

You're defenseless

[wind creek]

[ember swift]

Gorgons need long petrify cooldown

[wind creek]

the petrify ability should have mid range

[ember swift]

I do have a balance idea in mind for it though

I'll post

[halcyon geode]

Who said there were gonna be double generals?

[ember swift]

There are double generals already

Mainly king zarek as general for all order

And possibly petra for gorgons and chaos

Oh wait...

[wind creek]

Kai Rider would be a better giant general than griffon

[silent galleon]

Absolutely not.

First of all

[ember swift]

Not this mf

[silent galleon]

Crawlers exist

[wind creek]

because Griffon would be too strong in a battlefield

[silent galleon]

Griffon will be balanced

[wind creek]

oh ye I didnt know cats existed

[ember swift]

You have to stall for quite a long time though

He is expensive and likely long train time

Chances are you die before you could get him

He is a worth it wild card

[wind creek]

fair point

[wind creek]

and?

I know that bruv

[ember swift]

Crawlers are almost useless

[wind creek]

Fr

[silent galleon]

Just as pouncers

[ember swift]

Nope

[silent galleon]

In SW3 you will never see a Pouncer Succeed

[ember swift]

They are shadowraths of the chaos

[silent galleon]

Their Nerf did them dirty

[silent galleon]

The assasination unit of chaos is canonically Bomber

[wind creek]

Without their nerf they wouldve destroyed the META

[silent galleon]

Chaos and Order work differently

[ember swift]

Pouncers can destroy backline while everything else is busy with your own frontline

Pouncers are more effective than shadowrath at this current age

[silent galleon]

Example:
Speartons tactics base themselves on defense, Juggerknights on Attack

Same way while Shadowraths focus on taking down a single target quickly, Bombers’ splash damage aids them in dealing with hordes

[ember swift]

Shadowrath don't have Shinobi at the moment

[silent galleon]

Crawlers do not have Pack Mentality if so

[silent galleon]

From 8 they could have gone to 6
But 4 damage is quite literally a joke

[ember swift]

Crawlers are terrible Early game units with such terrible costs

[silent galleon]

Deads with rotten hands deal more damage than full on claws?

[wind creek]

my pouncer can stun light units, and it has mid range. so technically it hard-counters backline armies/ranged units

[ember swift]

Trust me it does

[wind creek]

its just looks bruv

[ember swift]

I should know

I have a cat that cam barely hurt me with his little claws

[wind creek]

Im gonna dislike my own fan idea knowing it wont end up well

[silent galleon]

The pouncer will be destroyed before they reach back lines
Mages?
Their stunn will stop them for the infantry

Archidons?
They get spammed, the pounder will be focused down cause slower of the crawler

Albowtrosses and Eclipsors?
I don’t even have to explain.

[wind creek]

deads are literally humans but infected. as you have seen in zombie movies they can literally have the strength to pull a human

[silent galleon]

A cat the size of a hound tough

[ember swift]

Not really

It's about normal

[silent galleon]

Those are World war Z zombies

This ones are rotten corpses one

Fantasy Deads

[ember swift]

Yes

[silent galleon]

Not Sci-Fi ones

[wind creek]

game logic

[ember swift]

They are rotting

But if you're putting real logic

THEN HOW DOES A GIANT EVEN STAND

HOW CAN PEOPLE SURVIVE MULTIPLE STAB WOUNDS TO THE CHEST AND LIVE

[wind creek]

atleast they can distract the ranged units as pouncers are cheap as swordwraths

and if the pouncers have toxic totality, they would atleast screw a few archers with poison

[ember swift]

@silent galleon also if you don't play endless in swl
Magikills are >meant< to counter pouncers

[silent galleon]

I use Juggerknights to distract everything as my Eclipsors do the focusing down

[wind creek]

all units have something to be countered with, so its not suprising

[silent galleon]

A group of archers or a phalanx works just as well, trust me

[ember swift]

Even they get beaten by an old man with a stick

[wind creek]

[ember swift]

You'd be surprised how that can fail rather quickly

You're considering them being alone

You don't consider the combinations possible

[silent galleon]

My main combination was 2 lines of speartons and a full on archidon spam

[ember swift]

You can distract them with your own frontline and pouncers can bolt in the speed of light and take care of the archers

[ember swift]

Even those can fail

You don't need an entire giant that breaks the laws of physics

[silent galleon]

With phalanxes, pounders get stabbed in the back, they’ll kill an archer or two but they’re replaceable

Anyway I gtg cause I have a test

[wind creek]

ofc somebody would not be stupid enough to only have pouncer deads as units in the deck

[ember swift]

Pouncers are even quicker to replace

[halcyon geode]

A slow heavy hitting tier 3 unit is usually useless in an rts

[halcyon geode]

No they aren’t

[ember swift]

They are cheaper

Cooldown likely same as sword

[wind creek]

It is.

I study the stats of all units before i make an idea

then I get feedbacks mostly from @novel sable

[halcyon geode]

This idea says otherwise????

[ember swift]

Yes

Swl gems worth is 125

[novel sable]

This is NOT how to make a pouncer dead

[ember swift]

Make it the same but gold

[ember swift]

Wdym

[novel sable]

Pouncer deads main purpose is to be dead assassin

This can't even do that

[wind creek]

It can.

[novel sable]

Pouncers are fast deads who pounce past the frontline

[wind creek]

they do.

[ember swift]

They are lightning speed

[novel sable]

This is just a slightly faster dead that jumps at enemies

This is just a better dead

[ember swift]

They are fast as crawlers(or faster) in swl

[wind creek]

do you know what I meant by "mid range"?

[halcyon geode]

So this pounder dead is ranged???

[ember swift]

No

[wind creek]

heck no

mid range defining it can jump a long distance

[novel sable]

Yes, but it doesn't pounce past the frontline

[ember swift]

They are athletic

[wind creek]

like from 1st gold mine to last gold mine in your base

[halcyon geode]

So worse swordwrath

Got it

[ember swift]

It does

[novel sable]

Not in this post

[wind creek]

almost same stats as sword, and has a 2nd life

[ember swift]

Somehow fairly better

[wind creek]

it can stun sword

similar to leap

[halcyon geode]

Oh so unit to kill off swordwrath

[wind creek]

but farther distance

[wind creek]

no?

[ember swift]

Nope

They have different purpose

Sword is better in its own way

[novel sable]

The only reason that pouncers are threatening is that they ignore the tanks and go instantly for the squishy units, and this idea removes that

[ember swift]

While pouncer the other

[ember swift]

How so?

[wind creek]

If someone is rushing archidon to tower literally 20 seconds into the game. not to mention the pouncer ability cooldown is 3 seconds. it can literally stun the archer at mid distance and probably kill it

if it tries to retreat, it can pounce again

[ember swift]

Yes

[halcyon geode]

If they have very similar stats I doubt that’s true

[wind creek]

the pounce ability hitbox is slightly bigger than usual

[ember swift]

Pouncer has less health and damage

[wind creek]

forgot to point this out

[ember swift]

But it's bloody fast

[ember swift]

So you can hit it mid range while it's in the air?

[wind creek]

In a race, swordwrath would outrun my pouncer by 1 second

[ember swift]

Close range*

[novel sable]

This idea states that the pouncer will pounce only if it encounters an enemy, so it'll pounce at the enemy, not PAST the enemy

[ember swift]

That's not how a pouncer is

[wind creek]

it targets light units

[novel sable]

This literally removes the pouncer's purpose

[wind creek]

I capitalized "LIGHT"

[ember swift]

Ok now I see...

[wind creek]

but if theres no light, then heavy

[novel sable]

You said IF

[ember swift]

Pouncers need to be fast

[wind creek]

how so

[halcyon geode]

Yeah like 15 less health and 0.5 less dps

Not that big of a difference

[ember swift]

How does a mad blood driven corpse pouncing on all 4 lose to a swordwrath in a race?

[novel sable]

Pouncers are faster than normal units

[wind creek]

if it doesnt use its ability, then yes, sword outruns

3 seconds is fast if you think about it

[wind creek]

cooldown

[novel sable]

I think you mistook pouncer deads for riser deads

[wind creek]

riser deads are too similar to deads

[ember swift]

Pouncers continuously pounces on all 4

[novel sable]

Pouncer deads pounce as their way of moving and attacking, only riser deads walk and then pounce if an enemy in nearby

[ember swift]

Riser dead are normal deads but they pounce at first enemy in sight

And they rise from the ground and are left vulnerable for a moment

[novel sable]

Yes, and this is just a stronger dead that pounces at the first enemy it sees

So this is a riser dead, not a pouncer

[ember swift]

It's better as a spell unit in sw3

Pouncer deserves to be added

Chaos doesn't have proper assassins

Compared to shadowrath

[wind creek]

if i make my pouncer pounce nonstop, would the argument change?

[novel sable]

Bombers are AOE assassins

[halcyon geode]

Just make crawlers fulfil that purpose

[novel sable]

Yes

[ember swift]

No

[halcyon geode]

And bombers exist

[ember swift]

Chaos will lose its scout unit

[wind creek]

I never knew riser deads pounce right after they see an enemy

[ember swift]

They are not as effective

[novel sable]

Crawlers are supposed to be proper early game units for chaos, basically a faster but weaker version of a swordwrath

[novel sable]

Crawlers will still be scout units

[ember swift]

Crawlers are meant to be early game scouts perfect for taking tower early

[wind creek]

Please stop saying buff or rework bombers or crawlers

[novel sable]

No

[novel sable]

Crawlers 100% need a rebalance

[ember swift]

And not to mention you can make multiple rather quickly

[novel sable]

Or a new unit for chaos

Chaos doesn't have a proper early game units, deads are too slow, crawlers are too fragile, and bombers die after one attack

[ember swift]

Crawlers are ok but need to be equal to sickle

[novel sable]

No

Swords

[ember swift]

Yes in sw2 and se

[novel sable]

Crawlers are basically a fast but weak chaos sword

[ember swift]

But in sw3 it can nolonger do so

[halcyon geode]

No

[halcyon geode]

Fuckk you mean it can no longer do so

[ember swift]

Without splash

[novel sable]

Crawlers absolutely need a rebalance

They're only good with Tesla coil

[ember swift]

Crawlers >can't< be equal to swords anymore

[halcyon geode]

Why not

[ember swift]

With the units the devs are adding

It's not gonna work well

[novel sable]

They're fast but they're so fragile and weak that they're just bad units unless you have Tesla coil

[ember swift]

It can likely kill swords

And cause an imbalance to this imbalance

[wind creek]

alr check out my rebalance

to the pouncer

I hope I get more critism

[ember swift]

Pls send link back up

[wind creek]

https://discord.com/channels/555057405080371210/1184072600788410419

oh wait

[ember swift]

It's not working

[wind creek]

uh

I'll just screenshot

[ember swift]

Just reply to it while you're at it

[novel sable]

You just made it worse

0.3 cooldown?

WTF

[ember swift]

WHAT DA HAIL STORM IS THAT

[wind creek]

nonstop pouncing

thats what you wanted right

[ember swift]

pouncers movement >is pouncing<

It's attack is a separate

[wind creek]

ok

[ember swift]

It does the same damage as normal deads but higher dps in swl I think

[novel sable]

Their way of movement is pouncing, that's the reason that they're the fastest dead

[wind creek]

got it.

[ember swift]

Fastest unit in swl as a matter of fact

[wind creek]

150 HP is balanced

[ember swift]

HAIL NO

[wind creek]

kidding.

[ember swift]

it needs to have less damage that swordwrath

I'm gonna do gorgon balance idea to prevent a lesser mass petrify spamm

[wind creek]

.

[wind creek]

same damage as deads, but really fast dps

I hope those "no" reactions go away

[ember swift]

Sorry bud but once "aliza" or "son of my cat" gives a no reaction, they won't remove it

[wind creek]

good

[novel sable]

https://discord.com/channels/555057405080371210/1184097971982311424

[ember swift]

Still trying to figure that out

[halcyon geode]

What

[wind creek]

that was auto correction, my bad

[ornate quarry]

No

[ember swift]

The bugs I sent never returned

[halcyon geode]

If you guys try to come where I live you’d be dead from the animals unknown to science here

[wind creek]

[ornate quarry]

This no idea

[halcyon geode]

It’s Australia what do you expect

[wind creek]

What are you talking about, it was auto correction.

[ember swift]

Yeah I thought so

[ember swift]

Not really

They are all no match for the Florida man

[halcyon geode]

No way in hell it was auto correct

[ember swift]

@wind creek you should send him as your assassin

[wind creek]

Auto correction mistake happens everytime, cmon man.

[halcyon geode]

You underestimate Australian animals

[wind creek]

I AM the assassin

[ember swift]

He can resell a crocodile like its a daily thing

[halcyon geode]

There is no way autocorrect changes an entire sentence to asking where their addresses are

[ember swift]

He can get bitten by snakes and say it's a kiss

[wind creek]

Yes it can.

[halcyon geode]

No it literally can’t

[halcyon geode]

He can get malaria and die

[ember swift]

Nope

He is seemingly immune to all of deaths invitations

[wind creek]

even if the chance is 0.0001%, it happened

to me

[halcyon geode]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/12/11/florida-man-dies-ejected-golf-cart-brooksville/71877042007/

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/florida-man-dies-from-after-drinking-panera-breads-caffeinated-charged-lemonade-according-to-lawsuit.amp

[ember swift]

Not those cheap knockoff

I'm talking 'the' Florida man

[halcyon geode]

Which one

[ember swift]

The one and only Florida man who's the definition of plot armour

Garett the one who seeks the 20ft Burmese Python

He has an Army of little 9 footers

[halcyon geode]

Ok this is getting way off topic

[wind creek]

I'll just delete this post

since it was so unbalanced from the start