spoiler-chat

[opal ridge]

Can any of the triad members be invited to the backroom?

[small temple]

Bruh bruh bruh I’m gonna cry

[opal ridge]

[small temple]

What should I do

[hearty pendant]

they have date captura scenes instead

[opal ridge]

Just reset
Thats all you can do

[zenith jacinth]

Activate brain

[opal ridge]

OOOOO
LEMME CHECK

[zenith jacinth]

Random convo

[small temple]

But I just reached max with Roathe….

That’s gonna suck so bad

And Roathe will remember

[hearty pendant]

you'll get them in your inbox, 5 scenes over 5 weeks

[opal ridge]

Roathe pulls a sans

[small temple]

Yeah

[opal ridge]

Ah, ughhhhh, waiting

[hearty pendant]

difference being that roathe actually knows

[opal ridge]

Do I keep the scenes after breakup?

[small temple]

I just tried to get her to see Entratie wasn’t good

But I sympathized w her

[hearty pendant]

no idea tbh

[zenith jacinth]

Does he?

[small temple]

Yes

[hearty pendant]

how'd the argument end?

[opal ridge]

Ah, unfortunate, I accepted the whole “Entrati is doing what he needs to do” route

[small temple]

I refuse to

[opal ridge]

Then you won’t get the floating nun :3

[small temple]

One past convo

Crash out I hate this game

Sobs

[opal ridge]

Oh endfield is done downloading, peace

[small temple]

I’m going to Rivals 😭😭😭😭

[zenith jacinth]

That. Shouldn't cause anathema

[hearty pendant]

hm. that looks like a good outcome?

[small temple]

Frick my stupid chungus life

[opal ridge]

I love roathe calling me pet, GYAAAAA

[small temple]

Bruh what did I do then???

[zenith jacinth]

Bugframe

[small temple]

AHHHHHHHH

IM GONNA… let me collect myself

[hearty pendant]

yea that one is a success
anathema might be a visual bug here?
unsure

[small temple]

Cries

[zenith jacinth]

Time for patience

[small temple]

Time for marvel rivals

[zenith jacinth]

Of course.

[zenith jacinth]

About your bio, are you aware that only you can see your notes?

[small temple]

I meant my status btw

I call status notes

Habit from another app

Fixed it

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-alphabet-ishowspeed-tweaking-ishowspeed-speed-losing-it-ishowspeed-crashing-out-gif-14768985120579117329

Me rn over Warframe

[zenith jacinth]

Ic

[rancid pilot]

Right, I got the entire Triad to help me with reuniting Loid. Where do I go to see the cutscenen

[formal fable]

Are you rank 5 family ?

[rancid pilot]

Yes

[hearty pendant]

loid convo (might require your base of operations to reload), then necralisk

[rancid pilot]

Also ngl, the game jumpsscared me with another confession prompt after getting loved with Roathe

Also is it just me or is Roathe significantly taller then Loid and Drifter in cutscenes only

[rancid pilot]

This worked perfectly, TY so much

[solid otter]

Yeah its. Weird

[runic oasis]

Do i need to like get Lyon or Marie to make Roathe talk to me again?

[opaque dove]

How many Descendia runs have you done?

[runic oasis]

21

[opaque dove]

I’m that case, I simply do not know what to do

[runic oasis]

This is like 2nd time he blocked me i think

[opaque dove]

I think he just needs a little “nudge” in the right direction…

[runic oasis]

First time because i had like 8 runs in Descendia and he wanted me to keep going
Second time because i did 21 and i refused to reset

[obtuse gyro]

did you recently refuse to reset?

[runic oasis]

Was like 5 days ago i think

[obtuse gyro]

huh, lyon should have appeared to help you by now

[runic oasis]

I got all chats with Marie done but not with Lyon yet

He is on close atm

I did check wiki for help so i know there are more chats with him to come however most stuff isnt finished there.

I am guessing the reason why it takes long with Lyon is because he starts later on and because i have play all KIM chats setting on

[silent night]

The properties of archon shards remind me of xenoflora. End of thought

[balmy storm]

How so

[silent night]

New war

[balmy storm]

What specific properties

[silent night]

Sentient stuff

[balmy storm]

Very descriptive

[silent night]

Gives the general idea

[balmy storm]

The general idea of both relating to the sentients?

[silent night]

Giving sentients life

[balmy storm]

Xenoflora doesn’t do that though

All it does is grant fragments sapience

[silent night]

Yeah

[balmy storm]

Ig in a way it’s giving life but those fragments come from an already sentient Sentient

[silent night]

Similar but not the same, curious

[balmy storm]

In a way, sure

One is an alien plant that grants Sentient fragments independence
The other is a Sentient invention with anti-entropic properties and the ability to heal Sentients (though ig at some kind of cost)

Beyond both relating to Sentients I’m unsure of how they’re similar, unless you count separating a fragment from the Hivemind as healing a Sentient

[sweet spade]

Koseki Bijou is live again. She's playing the New War. She just got her Nataruk.

[silent night]

Not enough information, making assumptions based on incomplete information is unwise. I was just pointing out they felt the same and there might be some connection because there might be a connection. Because I think it's silly to be like "This thing we don't know shit about has exactly these properties and these ones in the most recent updates have these updates" when it's all assumptions in the end

[opal ridge]

Besides emote, does roathe have any other voicelines post romance?

[chilly pine]

we'll probably get more lore on the shards and xenoflora when tau drops, but until then i think theyre completely seperate things beyond the sentient connection

[obtuse gyro]

what assumptions are being made?

[hybrid marlin]

For the point of reuniting loid with the other ppl I dont have to be at max relationship with the hex batch do i

Im fairly far along with the hex batch but I dont wanna have to catch up on everyone else's relationship

[chilly pine]

nah, only the triad has anything to do with that

[obtuse gyro]

no you just need R5 entrati

[hybrid marlin]

Alright thanks just wanted to double check

Appreciate it

[prime badger]

I think Roathe's KIM becomes better once he... ||Spoiler:|| ||...knows about the reset||.

[hybrid marlin]

Roathe breaking 4th wall....

Or he just sees the computer button to reset

Thatd be funny instead of some 4th wall thing

[chilly pine]

i think he finds out about it from the dark refactory

[hearty pendant]

isn't even a fourth wall thing, its just that some memories are deeper than what the drifter can affect

[hybrid marlin]

Ah

Lore thing then

[rain otter]

Not the first character to know that it happens.

||Looks over at lizzie. She tells you to reset if it goes poorly.||

[floral condor]

Does anyone remind me why Albretch created human mechs?

[real niche]

Fight the Indifference, what else

[deft mist]

Imagine us using that against the hunhullis

I wonder if thats what inspired him to make those

[rain otter]

Warframes are also this

These are just big.

These where made to fight wally somehow.

[cobalt scroll]

Roathe chat after reset is really interesting

[mystic cairn]

it says i created a kuva lich what does that even mean 🤤

[formal fable]

You spawned kuva lich and can get weapons

[mystic cairn]

it didn't say I got a weapon 💔

after the mission

[lofty girder]

You gotta kill the lich first

[mystic cairn]

where do i kill him

i wanted a funnier name than midd kati

[lofty girder]

You gotta kill their minions to figure out their password to stab them properly

[vagrant hatch]

do we HAVE to reset to try for the loid scene? lyon & roathe talked to me about it but nothings happened since 😭

[mystic cairn]

i gotta get a password to stab someone ☠️

[formal fable]

Click at the bottom right will have the kuva lich option

[mystic cairn]

ill look up a tutorial appreciate the answers brodie 👴

[mystic cairn]

i saw it hes kinda funny i wish i wouldnt have to kill him

[formal fable]

Get the kuva lich mods from requelim relic

And slot according

Wait ah

Let me get iflynn kuva lich guide

[mystic cairn]

ou

people are so helpful in this game

idk what it is

[rustic tree]

Shared trauma, we all been through not knowing anything

[hearty pendant]

reset is not required, just all 3 to agree + entrati r5
it may need a reset if you fail to convince one of them and the other two can't bail you out

[formal fable]

https://youtu.be/QqGkauTTfNI?si=WGkPw0xFDAcYleyd

[mystic cairn]

thanks cro ily

[formal fable]

Np

You need corpus lich guide ?

https://youtu.be/reKSoUy_JEk?si=6kH_QMFB7XQb-5KJ

[vagrant hatch]

hmm ok, some chats keep disappearing/bugging out so maybe a rest has to be done for me & my friend who cant progress chats anymore for this.

[mystic cairn]

wow i didnt even know that existed

im in ur debt 💸

[formal fable]

One more also coda lich

https://youtu.be/r-38gdz9qzE?si=MfoCkKrKjHDadqL3

[rich mauve]

hey guys question is any walkthrough how to romance Marie because i failed the 3 time now and im like fk her and her options in the chat zone for her.

[cerulean kiln]

Kimulacrum

But how did you manage to fail 3 times?

[solid otter]

Yeah, genuinely how did you fail 3 times?

[rich mauve]

With "talent" I don't know even Eleanor was easyer then her to romance

[solid otter]

Did you constantly agree with her about Albrecht?

Also, its nearly impossible to fail a hex member

[rich mauve]

Yes

[solid otter]

... do you genuinely believe in what you said?

Or are you just saying it?

[lofty girder]

Being honest is surprisingly effective

[solid otter]

I honestly don't know why people think that lying to her will be effective

[rich mauve]

Yea I think I will give up on her let her be

[solid otter]

Ight lmao

[rustic tree]

everyone knows that people loooove being lied to !!

[solid otter]

I was worried id have to lie about my feelings about Albrecht to actually succeed with her, given that we shared similar views early on. Then the whole argument happened and it was like. Ew.

[lofty girder]

Is it Schadenfreude to enjoy using Marie's own words about "having no name being the cruelest thing possible" against her?

[solid otter]

I for one used the religious one to get back at her as it was something my drifter has faith in, but ykwhat I dont think that's necessarily a bad choice

[uncut solar]

Comebacks against overly zealous religious people simulator

[lofty girder]

Regardless, pointing out the hypocrisy helps her understand that albrecht absolutely needs the taste slapped out his mouth before we continue on any plan to defeat wally

[uncut solar]

And roathe is in it too

[solid otter]

To some degree me and Marie agree on that Albrecht is a man with a lot of complex feelings and actions, but her refusal to acknowledge the bad shit he did was wild

[rustic tree]

yeah i enjoyed that

[boreal falcon]

imagine if someday there was a game mechanic, that allows us to pick up xenoflowers, and with those, make rogue sentients turn into allies

[zenith jacinth]

Thing about xenoflora is that it was made extinct at the end of the old peace

[boreal falcon]

...well chucks

[zenith jacinth]

Technically the liberated sentients were the rogue ones since they got seperated from their hive mind by it

[rustic tree]

it's fine we'll just make more xenoflora :)

[zenith jacinth]

That's impossible

[rustic tree]

for you maybe, for me it's easy

although it might be tautologically impossible, cause they wouldn't be xeno if they were made by us ....

[deft mist]

Supposedly

That was pretty big lore drop

To be not used again

[zenith jacinth]

The only use was to show us why the war stopped and restarted

[deft mist]

Maybe but i have a feeling it might come back later

[rustic tree]

well it also opens up a lot of stuff for sentients as characters, i doubt they've served their narrative purpose already

[zenith jacinth]

Only sentient fragments, regular sentients don't need it

[rustic tree]

i know

that's my point

at least to me that's a lot more interesting than only ever having normal sentients as full-fledged characters

[fringe pond]

I wasn’t sure if they were specifically destroyed on Perita or not

[opaque dove]

Who doesn’t love free will?

[steep totem]

...dictators

[uncut solar]

They love free will

Just not for everyone else

[pastel pasture]

we don't know if it went extinct. Frankly I think one of the plot points of the Tau arc will be finding a xenoflora that survived

i mean we are more or less going to Tau to find a sentient

[zenith jacinth]

Going off of existing evidence it's gone

[fierce kiln]

tau is a system, not just the perita moon, i doubt the entire systems world seeders were activated

id assume they brought the flora to the other celestial bodies

[zenith jacinth]

It's possible that they were

[pastel pasture]

Perita is the moon. Tau is both a planet and a system

[fierce kiln]

its a planet?

[zenith jacinth]

It could have terrible consequences to only activate one terraforming device instead of all of them at once

[pastel pasture]

Yes. Tau is the planet and System. Perita is Tau's moon

[cerulean kiln]

Perita is the Moon of Tau of the System called Tau

[fierce kiln]

i only know that irl there is a star system called tau ceti, and the event weapon ceti lactera mentions that its made on the tau planet ceti

[fierce kiln]

i interpreted it as "tau moon" -> moon in the tau system

but works too ig

[pastel pasture]

I think Tau has like. 4 bodies or something orbiting it

[cerulean kiln]

Can you actually see Tau the planet from the moon?

[valid folio]

Tau = Tau Ceti or nah?

[thick jolt]

Ish

[south gale]

i Just finished the Quest that unlocks the operator and now i have a question, before that, the warframe we played as could't speak or could It and we (players)Just didan't Hear?

[thick jolt]

Inspired but not 1:1

[valid folio]

Aight

[zenith jacinth]

Great question

[valid folio]

Also, finding the Lullaby of the Manifold (Dusk) soma in perita, OML I love it soo so sooo much

[south gale]

yea because like... now that i have It, the warframe is talking in cutcenes and ansewring lótus and teshin

but before , It was like It was mute

[thick jolt]

Well the operator is not the warframe

[zenith jacinth]

I say great question when there's no real answer

[valid folio]

Really want Umbra to roam in the orbiter

[zenith jacinth]

Yea

I still prefer with lyrics but dusk is gud

[thick jolt]

Imagine pre tsd warframe just trying to sign to konzu they wanna do a bounty, no we do not want lunch, b o u n t y, why do you keep talking about lunch konzu

[zenith jacinth]

Konzu is wally and early lunch is his fingerbones, kiddo

[thick jolt]

Btw one of the best honorias

[zenith jacinth]

Yea

Right up there with

the power of harrow compels you

[thick jolt]

I love that one just because it is too big for the name text box

Then you get tiiiiny name because of it

[cinder marten]

someone on reddit just compared the orokin to the aeldari and then the indifference to slaneesh from 40k how original

[zenith jacinth]

Ok now I need it even more

[thick jolt]

Weird comparison given where they end up

[zenith jacinth]

Resisting the instinct to sell all my harrow chassi is difficult

[thick jolt]

Lol

I kinda forgot about them, so even after the honoria i still had hundreds

[cinder marten]

like get a load of this guy

hah

[zenith jacinth]

I go through my inventory like once per month to sell unneeded stuff

Except my quellor bp bc that's tradeable even though no one ever wants it

[cinder marten]

i got the harrow honoria because i'm a pro gamer

[thick jolt]

If anything wally would be closer to tzeentch rather than slaneesh

[cinder marten]

and i have the sp solo descendia latin honoria equipped because i'm a pro gamer

[zenith jacinth]

The more you say it the less true it becomes

[cinder marten]

they made the slaneesh comparison because of the whole conceptual embodiment thing but other than that it's nothing

[thick jolt]

At the end of the day it is just reddit

[cinder marten]

imagine if they made wally a s3x demon

[steep totem]

I have the Kaithe Tamer of Duviri honoria because I'm a pro Duviri gamer

[thick jolt]

Early lunch honoria but you play grendel

[cinder marten]

hell yeah

[zenith jacinth]

Bypassing the filter can get you in trouble you know

[cinder marten]

worth it

[cerulean kiln]

https://tenor.com/view/i-want-u-to-be-banned-gif-13051109547748519557

[zenith jacinth]

The consequences severely outweigh the fractional benefit

[cinder marten]

can't say s3x anymore, literally 1984

[sharp pendant]

Just finish the new war quest...that was something

[solid otter]

[sharp pendant]

so what the deal with drifter? So like they are our past or like alternate reality?

[thick jolt]

Semi alternate

[cerulean kiln]

Play Duviri Paradox

[thick jolt]

The divergent point happened inside the void so... kinda wasn't in any reality anyway

[rain otter]

Did you play new war?

[cerulean kiln]

They said they finished it

[rain otter]

Duviri paradox will help but the new war says the operator is the one that got out of the Zariman and the Drifter. Didn't.

[lethal lava]

This is something that's been bothering me for a while but just how much control, at their peak, did the Orokin actually have over the technocyte? The helminth & grey strains they seemed to make heavy use of with the former existing to make the mass-produced warframes via Ballas, and the grey strain used in Entrati's titanic vessels, but the rest seems rather chaotic.

[uncut solar]

I imagine the same way they were at the peak of genetical engineering

They probably could work with infestation, since it's still living tissue

Almost all they have is some sort of organic powered tech because ai bad

Seems like a natural extension of their craft

[lethal lava]

barring the whole turning people into equiv's via the cephalons & shackling the ever loving snot out of their capabilities. And yeah, considering the living nature of 90% of everything they built (Tower of the Unum & wall meat as a pretty massive example,) them having functional control over it prior to the whoopsie with the sentients wouldn't be surprising.

[balmy storm]

Iirc it was still problematic but they had more control over it

Like Helminth was domesticated
The infestation was used in an attempt against the sentients in a few ways, Lephantis comes to mind

But prior to the war they likely kept it locked away since it’d cause more problems at that relative time of “peace” (the height of the empire)

[undone lodge]

It doesn’t

Ceti Lacera

Forged for veterans of the Scarlet Spear conflict, this Lacera has been modified to enhance nimbleness and lethality

[undone lodge]

Couldn’t speak, there’s a line that confirms it

[fierce kiln]

cant trust the wiki ig..

[chilly pine]

yeah if it doesnt cite a source take it with a grain of salt

[thick jolt]

Take it with a himalayan salt lamp

[undone lodge]

It probably got retconned, considering Stalker, but there was some line about their throats or something

[chilly pine]

i think most warframes couldnt, stalker mightve been an exception or have been retconned into one

[balmy storm]

I mean in theory any frame could, from what we’ve observed the right amount of high emotions causes them to retain some form of sapience

Kullervo
Umbra
Dante seemed to be fine despite others going feral

I do wonder if this relates to frames being void powered rather than infested, iirc Lizzie says the frames going mad wasn’t the infestation? Idr exactly since
It’s been nearly a year lmao

[zenith jacinth]

Lizzie is clearly meant to confirm that "infested madness" was actually just a logical reaction to the torture

[balmy storm]

Gen 1 frames:

Like they all went feral eventually

Seemingly around the same time too

[zenith jacinth]

Yes?

[chilly pine]

hard to tell how much is operator vs the actual frame, jade and stalker were deliberately left with their minds intact, and umbra with the memory as punishment for their crimes, think drifter states in a kim convo that some fragments of the original persons personality also remain regardless (explaining the animation sets)

[zenith jacinth]

According to an orokin

[balmy storm]

I’m saying I’m not too sure its just cause
Torture lol

[undone lodge]

I couldn’t find the line I’m thinking of, but there’s this from Jade’s Feather:

I screamed defiance in his face, but my voice was razors and steel.

[balmy storm]

I mean I specifically stated frames that did not have operators

[zenith jacinth]

And that still isn't a counterpoint

Going ""feral"" is a possible reaction to the torture the og frames endured

[balmy storm]

And yet it still seemed to occur around the same time

[chilly pine]

didnt know if kullervo and dante were confirmed to not have operators

[balmy storm]

Both are gen 1

[zenith jacinth]

When put into combat, presumably the only time they're even free to act

[balmy storm]

So the ones that went feral weren’t traumatized enough is what you’re saying

[zenith jacinth]

No I'm saying they were tortured too much

[balmy storm]

Cause big emotions seem to equal being not feral, torture would cause big emotions

[chilly pine]

from the sacrifice:

Ballas: "I'm afraid the disease has taken your voice, but we've prepared the finest serums to treat you. Shall we pass the time with a game of Komi? Like old time

[zenith jacinth]

Evidence?

[balmy storm]

Umbra - forced to relive worst memory
Kullervo - constantly dealing with their immense guilt
Jade - love for her child
Stalker - hatred for the tenno

[zenith jacinth]

I wonder if ballas actually used to be "friends" with umbra

[balmy storm]

Like it’s not confirmed but the pattern absolutely is big emotion = not feral

[zenith jacinth]

3 of the 4 are made intentionally relatively sane

Seems more likely that intentional design=not feral

[balmy storm]

3 out of 4 are likely gen 1 frames
Umbra being the fourth who doesn’t

[balmy storm]

Was Kullervo intentional design?

[undone lodge]

If what Roathe thought is remotely true I think he very well could’ve been

[real niche]

Kullervo's was certainly not intentional

[balmy storm]

Like I’m sorry but are you saying they intentionally designed him to not be feral?

If the Orokin had any control over them being feral the tenno wouldn’t need to exist

[zenith jacinth]

I'm trying to figure out wth I mean myself now

Too exhausted to think, I might be

Uhh

[balmy storm]

):

Do you need rest or

[zenith jacinth]

Nah I just carried a bunch of heavy stuff, my brain can't think for a while after putting myself to my carrying ability limit

[balmy storm]

Water?

[undone lodge]

Like. He was his “greatest Dax”, he was physically close enough to find out very private information, even as a warframe he got “special treatment” in spite of what Ballas planned, and if we assume that at least the Star Child Diadem is canon then he got a special circlet made to commemorate him

[zenith jacinth]

I'm gonna go rest a bit and maybe figure out what I'm trying to say

[balmy storm]

Lol have a good rest Scrap

Take it easy

[uncut solar]

https://tenor.com/view/sleep-sleeping-sleepy-cat-cat-cute-gif-5647373625706459185

[balmy storm]

Do you think it’s more canon that we finally got it from an event or
Cause I believe Blood of Perita is the first instance of it being available directly in-game and not as like
A twitch drop

The canonicity of items based on acquisition is an idea

[undone lodge]

It’d also be odd for him to act the way he did outwardly in The Sacrifice as some kind of trick, especially considering their positions

[undone lodge]

Probably

We are buying it from the Old War guy who is mostly selling canon stuff aside from the usual Operation renewables

At the very least I think it’s safe to treat it with the same “soft canon” status other things that don’t make much of an actual appearance get

[balmy storm]

I hope we get an update on the Triad KIM
Both for more questions for Roathe and so they fix the “polycule” situation

Imagine being able to ask about Umbra, to ask about the Kuva, what is the Unum

[chilly pine]

on the topic of feral frames and what not, i wonder if this has any relevance

[balmy storm]

Yeah that top bit is after the frames being feral and not listening
The Orokin just made it worse lmao

[real niche]

Yeah that's the main rub since they just couldn't be controlled at all.

[balmy storm]

The rest of that is Ballas not understanding basic empathy and trauma bonding with trauma

[chilly pine]

fair enough, and i doubt many orokin could even grasp the concept of empathy

[balmy storm]

They probably can if forced into a position where they have to
They seem to get uh. “Better”? When forced with mortality

[zenith jacinth]

Definitely

Usually

[balmy storm]

We should do it more

Though I will say it def doesn’t work for all of them

Or it likely doesn’t

I doubt it would work on any of the Seven (emperors and executors)

[zenith jacinth]

Hey, can't know until we try

And if it doesn't just pull the trigger

[chilly pine]

too far gone in their own ego or delusions

[balmy storm]

If their ego is as big or bigger than the system they get the Lex

[deft mist]

Id use something a bit more painful

They dont deserve a bullet

[balmy storm]

They deserve several

[zenith jacinth]

Lex bullets are far from normal tbh

For example, my beloved 220% cc lex shoots materialized death

[proper spade]

Does anyone know how to get Loid to unite with the Entrati family? I've convinced him to do it but I haven't had the cutscene where he goes to meet them yet.

[chilly pine]

do you have rank 5 with the family? i hear thats another preq for that event to happen

[south gale]

lore question, but did the operator Think he was the armour itself before finding his own body or did he knew he had a body just didn't knew where it was?

[cerulean kiln]

Operator thought they were the Warframe

[south gale]

I see, so changing frames is a non canon thing and in canon they thought they were the exact frame we picked at the start?

[cerulean kiln]

It’s still canon

[real niche]

There'd be something up if Ordis is mentioning "Piloting this Warframe" when talking about Limbo but it's not like they'd know they're the child.

[south gale]

oh I see!

so they thought they were the frame but could "soul jump" to other frames still?

[steep totem]

Or that they're a disembodied soul that merely possesses the frames

[south gale]

I see! I see!

thanks !

[steep totem]

Scrap, that was just an idea for a pre-Second Dream explanation the Tenno might come up with

I'm well aware it's not true

[zenith jacinth]

I'm aware that you're aware, it's just that that's not the vague explanation given on what the operator might've thought

[steep totem]

...there's a canon explanation?

How the Hek did I miss that?

[zenith jacinth]

Bc it's a very vague blink and you'll miss it mention

[steep totem]

Alright, that's fair
Mind pointing it out for me?

[zenith jacinth]

Honestly I don't even remember when it is, just vaguely that it exists

That's how missable it is

[dark remnant]

The Operator was literally made to forget that they were not the Warframe. There's a whole quest about discovering the truth.

[steep totem]

That
Is impressive

[lapis robin]

guys help what do i choose

[dark remnant]

There is also a brief mention of somatic links.

Operator, IMO. Unless you like Drifter better.

Then choose Drifter, unless you like Operator better.

[steep totem]

...great, now my disembodied soul idea is trying to turn itself into a fanfic about an Operator effectively trapped in Void Mode

[lapis robin]

well i like my operator more but the drifter has more weaponry doesn’t it does it affect the story in any way?

[steep totem]

Doesn't even affect gameplay
Drifter will now play like Operator

[dark remnant]

NOpe, they don't get to use that. Their gameplay becomes "Operator".

[steep totem]

Well, outside of Duviri

[lapis robin]

i have no idea what any of this means.

[opaque dove]

Your choice

[lapis robin]

so if i choose operator my drifter becomes the operator but if i choose drifter my operator becomes my drifter?

[dark remnant]

You can switch between them at any time after this quest.

Some areas require the Drifter.

[lapis robin]

so it doesn’t affect the story

[steep echo]

The choice only changes minor dialog in the rest of that quest, otherwise they play the same.

[opaque dove]

Basically, you take the one you chose into the last fight of TNW

[lapis robin]

hmmm

[opaque dove]

A few dialogue changes, but no

[tight pagoda]

They now have the same abilities and everything

Drifter can Void sling and etc

[lapis robin]

i should choose operator since she got a more special connection with lotus aka natah aka the devil or smth

[opaque dove]

Just ones taller

[steep totem]

It doesn't affect story or gameplay
Operator and Drifter will play exactly the same now

[lapis robin]

okay

i think i’ll choose the op then✅

thanks guys

[zenith jacinth]

No, the devil is you. Well, it's what ballless calls tenno

[lapis robin]

i think lotus is the right way man

i think she would be happy with that

[dark remnant]

"Dream, not of who you are, but who you wish to be." I'd agree. Natah and Margulis are in her past. Lotus, the synthesis of both and now free of Ballas, I see as the way forward.

In my opinion, it's the one choice she can make that acknowledges everything in her history without rejecting any part of it.

[tight pagoda]

She's the one making the choice here

So all are valid

[balmy storm]

All three personalities will remain, this is just choosing who speaks for the others basically

[lapis robin]

i think imma go with lotus she doesn’t wanna look at her past and would rather remain as what she is now

[balmy storm]

But yes Lotus is the most her choice tbh, it’s the only identity she chose, she grew into
Natah is who she was
Margulis is who she was forced to be
But the Lotus is hers, wholly (more so than the others at least)

[tight pagoda]

If you like the other skins, you can buy them with plat

And regardless of your decision you still have the original one to pick

[balmy storm]

Again, the other two personalities are still in there
She basically has three now but here she’s choosing who leads

[lapis robin]

lotus should lead

[balmy storm]

But also if we look at the litany of the dax which came out before this quest then
Yeah no Lotus is still the best pick

Warframe teaches us that balance is important and Lotus is that balance

As was said, all are valid
But Lotus thematically makes the most sense, this is just her choosing who leads for what comes next ||(which so far very little has come from this choice)||

[lapis robin]

lotus is just who i grew into so i think it’s the most canon and safe option

lotus i choose you

[tight pagoda]

They're all canon, ultimately it's your choice and they're the same person, there's no consequences

Just like, a few dialogues here and there

[lapis robin]

i’m so happy she lives and got a happy ending

[tight pagoda]

The Old Peace doesn't even care and ||forces you into Radiant Lotus|| I think

[balmy storm]

||sure didnt use my customization for the cool Xaku skin ):<||

[balmy storm]

Friend!

[pastel pasture]

https://tenor.com/view/friend-social-first-day-of-school-socially-awkward-anais-watterson-gif-8699536

best im convo is the one where Quincy talks about how he kept one of Lettie's rats company, fed it, talked to it. When he went to return it to Lettie he found out that it was in fact NOT one of Lettie's rats

[balmy storm]

https://tenor.com/view/rat-mouse-frien-gif-23468077

[jovial salmon]

can anyone tell me if i messed this up and need to reset?

i did the 21 runs as well

[pastel pasture]

so how come Daughter likes to watch you gut fish.

[pastel pasture]

sounds like you did something to upset Roathe and there's only one way forward for you now....

[dark remnant]

Wait for a patch is the way forward they don't tell you about

[jovial salmon]

rip me. dating him and he somehow hates me

[pastel pasture]

if you reset you can ask for Roathe's help in dating Roathe

[jovial salmon]

wait what?

[pastel pasture]

one of the potential deals you can make with Roathe is help with dating

i am stuck dating Marie for 3 more weeks to get all her captura scenes

[opal ridge]

Wait why am I neutral with roathe again?

[balmy storm]

Orokin moment

[fierce kiln]

wait until she meets Fibonacci

[dark remnant]

She'd be sort of interested, but he's just a Norg. Daughter's real interest is in how the Infestation has affected fish and orokin cleaner drones on Deimos.

[fierce kiln]

void saturated norg

[pastel pasture]

I'd hope that Kahl has rubbed off on her enough that she wouldn't want to dissect a sapient fish to see what void organs look like

[jovial salmon]

Was doing that to me too

[dark remnant]

Again, just a norg. Void saturated and oversized or not, just a norg. There's nothing particularly interesting about a regular fish; Daughter's idee fixe is about the effects of the infestation on fish. That's what she's studying.

Given how the Infestation is wary of the void, it's very possible Fibonacci can't be infested.

[balmy storm]

If he’s anything like the Tenno, def can’t be infested

[knotty pumice]

If the profile says "Best Friends" that means it's too late to begin a romance with someone, correct?

[warm falcon]

Margulis.

[zenith jacinth]

No

[solid otter]

That is possibly the worst choice

Imo, choosing Margulis is choosing to perpetuate the abuse the Lotus faced at the hands of Ballas

[lofty girder]

Natah at least is neutral, though it basically just resets character development

[warm falcon]

well guess what. i chose natah.

[knotty pumice]

Alright. In that case I shall contonue to wait

[warm falcon]

i want lotus to suffer.

ballas was right.

all hail ballas

[tight pagoda]

No it just means you haven't romanced them. It's the same tier as Loved.

[solid otter]

Oh so you're just dumb

[warm falcon]

mhm

[zenith jacinth]

Just walk up to the desired datee and ask through that

[lofty girder]

slides up to Marie

"Ya like Jazz?"

[solid otter]

All hail the dude who called a child a nymph, something notoriously sexual and not something you want associated with a child! I guess.

[knotty pumice]

I can't do it via conversation? Almost every single character has at one point given me a "confess feelings" option in dialog except the one I'm waiting on lol

[solid otter]

[zenith jacinth]

Drifter be like

[solid otter]

Just go in person, you should be able to

[zenith jacinth]

Might've missed it already

[lofty girder]

https://tenor.com/view/virtual-insanity-virtual-insanity-template-walking-dancing-rearranging-furnitures-gif-27710286

[zenith jacinth]

Lavos 2

[knotty pumice]

I feel like I'm missing out doing it the "click button" way. It feels so unnatural

[lofty girder]

viraltual insanity

[warm falcon]

erm actually i stand with israel ( ok no im sorry it was ragebait i actually chose lotus )

[solid otter]

Still waiting for DE to hear my plea and make Loid a proto. Make that mf limbo

[zenith jacinth]

It's kinda the same thing

[solid otter]

Oh you'd hate the consent convos then

DE's writing kinda failed

It was. Fine for the triad but. Christ.

[lofty girder]

Alternatively, kalymos limbo

[knotty pumice]

Yeah I ain't touching that with a ten foot anything

I'm picking one person and that's it

[solid otter]

Ykwhat thats so based

[solid otter]

Kalymos.... palymos... I hope she gets to see Loid again, and maybe the triad

Maybe Roathe will have an explanation on why she looks like that

[lofty girder]

Albrecht had a fur allergy

It transends continuity

[zenith jacinth]

Understandable

[lofty girder]

That or his tism didn't like the feeling of fur

[zenith jacinth]

I'm romancing both quincy and lyon and still feel iffy about it

[solid otter]

Hed like. Go to hug Loid or some shit and inhale Loid's hair 💔

[knotty pumice]

I had Roathe fix the Marie issue and that seemed to work I guess tho her profile had one entry saying she refused to help and right below another entry saying she agreed to help so that was funny

I have nicknamed her Pancake 'csuse she flipflops harder than one subjected to a dad trying to impress his kids whilst making one

[zenith jacinth]

[knotty pumice]

Today Lyon also wanted to go fix it, which removed the entry about her having agreed to help that Roathe created. So now I guess I have to wait for Lyon to also go fix it.
I swear this KIM system works about as smoothly as a warframe quest marker

[pastel pasture]

I think triad kim was rushed to make the end of year deadline

[solid otter]

Yeah the triad are a mess

Hopefully the echoes update fixes it

[pastel pasture]

And now it's a hot mess of spaghetti code

[solid otter]

.. hopefully.

[hearty pendant]

can only hope, i suppose

[solid otter]

Please, DE, please dont just add more chats onto the shitpile the triad kims are rn

I just really want more Loid chats

2 is not enough

I still think he's gonna become a proto tho

Hes gonna get infested, and hes gonna inject himself to save himself

[knotty pumice]

What frame would he be?

[solid otter]

Limbo, obviously

He already looks super similar to limbo, moreso limbo prime

Specifically the whole. Torso deal

[knotty pumice]

Then they better give him a hat

[solid otter]

Like. Similar enough for it to be weird

[knotty pumice]

Infested hat Lizzie style

Mad hatter vibes

[solid otter]

Nah, would make Loid's design too busy

I think his Glasses could serve as the hat in animations

[knotty pumice]

Mmmm but I want a ridiculously oversized infested hat for him to constantly argue with

[hearty pendant]

is that not what he does with fibonacci anyway

[knotty pumice]

Fib is too timid

[solid otter]

I mean, he's not that timid. He blatantly cheats at komi with Loid

Calls us. Bipeds

[knotty pumice]

Still doesn't make him a good hat :p

He's too.. post-lesson-learned Christmas carol for my taste. No, we need something more.. crazy. Someone who'd eat the komi.

[hearty pendant]

so, bird 3

[knotty pumice]

😆

I think he'd be onboard with becoming a hat, tbf

[solid otter]

I definitely think hed donate some feathers for it!

[lapis robin]

no..

[ornate oak]

Man, I'm looking at KIMulacrim now, and I never saw any way to Redeem Roathe during that whole time. Like, he was all sad about his victim complex but other than that he was just a jerk the whole time, but I mean a much stronger word than Jerk.

I think I'm about to complete the Triad KIMs and like... none of the options seemed reasonable.

[solid otter]

... he was in an abusive/toxic relationship

He has every right to be a victim

Hes an orokin, yes but that doesnt distract from the fact he was in a really bad relationship with Niktoh

[ornate oak]

He was telling me freaking Ballas was truely in love with Margulis.

[solid otter]

And do you think thats maybe a coping mechanism?

[ornate oak]

Maybe, but I never got the option to suggest that.

[solid otter]

Consider that he's in denial about how bad the relationship he had with Niktoh was

Yeah and thats just poor writing on the devs part

[ornate oak]

All my options were just to agree or disagree with his excuses.

[solid otter]

Doesnt make it untrue

[solid otter]

A great example of this is the whole wally thing he has

Its just how DE wrote it

Doesnt mean its not him trying to excuse his own relationship

Its the opposite of how he feels about Albrecht and Loid's relationship imo

Bitter bcs they have something he couldn't, but hes in denial about how bad it was, via projecting from Margulis and Ballas

These aren't new coping mechanisms tbh

"No, see, he loved her! He was bad to her but he loved her! That means Niktoh loved me!"
Basically

[ornate oak]

Dude clearly didn't know what love even was, but I never had any chance to point that out to him. Just had to say the guy he was using as his emotional surrogate was unforgivable, or agree with him.

[solid otter]

Yeah. And thats DE being a little bad at writing and giving all options a chance

Thats our drifter, not Roathe. I don't like that we affirm his denial, but thats how its written

[ornate oak]

I'm going to need a guide to KIM conversations from now on I guess.

[solid otter]

Oh, Kimulacrum

[ornate oak]

Yeah, but that's super hard to use to actually figure out how things end.

It's just for getting the glowey text mostly.

[solid otter]

I mean theres flowcharts

Flowcharts, chat simulator

Just know what Booleans are good or bad

[ornate oak]

Yeah, that's the hard part.

Oh well, hopefully it doesn't matter, like the alignment system.

[solid otter]

I mean ive found them easy enough to understand. Especially the Triads. Somehow

Mainly cus theres so many useless ones

[solid otter]

... do you want to date any of the new protos

Because if you do, you're gonna need to know

Marie specifically is easier to mess up

[ornate oak]

I had no problem with Lyon or Marie. It's just Roathe, cause of the dialog options not actually making sense in the situation.

[solid otter]

Oh

Nah thats just Roathe. Have you done descendia 21 times?

Also, have you counted your thermostat

[ornate oak]

Marie I just had to be delicate with about Entrati until she got into a fight with someone who was cuter than me, and then I just mediated.

[ornate oak]

Yeah

[ornate oak]

What?

[solid otter]

Theres a secret counter for Roathe's ending, called thermostat

Most chats, including some of Marie's and Lyon's, will add or take away from the counter

[ornate oak]

I have no idea what that is or how I would check it, but he's already best friends and plans to murder the family when Albrecht returns.

[solid otter]

... oh you got the villain ending i think-

[ornate oak]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I never really had any reasonable alternative though.

[solid otter]

I mean

You only really get that from judging him for being an orokin 😭

Which is like. The exact opposite for what you want to do for Roathe

[ornate oak]

I barely ever did that.

[solid otter]

The thermostat counter goes down from agreeing with him or judging him for the shit the orokin did

A low thermostat is usually where the villain ending comes from iirc

[ornate oak]

I mean, if I have to coddle him the entire time in order to avoid him turning into a psychomurderer, then I might as well kill him as soon as his stops being useful, cause he's just a ticking time bomb with excuses.

[solid otter]

.. you need to do the opposite

You need to confront him, judge him for the shit he did

Not for the shit the orokin did

Like continuity or stuff he had no hand in doing

[ornate oak]

I never really got the option to judge him for his own actions.

Like, the few times he even talked about his own actions it was like, he planned to wipe out the orokin, sounds good to me.

He chose to take the Proto Serum. Ok... great?

Basically, notthing he ever told me about himself was that bad except his intentions for the entrati family

[solid otter]

Here's one where its important to choose

Dont judge him for being orokin, dont treat him like he is (he hates it)

[ornate oak]

I think I said the first one.

[solid otter]

Which i think lowers the thermostat

The orokin one is neutral and the "you" one is positive

You gotta make him face the truth

By going along with him and his doubt of his memories, you're avoiding it

[obtuse gyro]

here's another one

[ornate oak]

Honestly, dude just came across as a homocidal cry baby who wanted to be coddled for being slightly less bad than the other monsters around him, and I tried my best, but there were just no good dialog options that let me actually tell him the truth.

[solid otter]

Thank you bau

[obtuse gyro]

one of which is asking him to be better, another coddles him.

you can guess which way the thermostat goes

[solid otter]

I mean. I think your issue with Roathe is how you yourself are perceiving it

Which you're entitled to feel

Its just not the point of his chats

To coddle him is to affirm his denial and delusions

[ornate oak]

My only options were coddling him, or saying utterly bizarre things like "Love is the ultimate reward"

Or just not engaging

[solid otter]

... I think you mightve misinterpreted a lot of chats

Because a lot of them aren't coddling

The ones that make your thermostat low are, which is why you would've gotten the villain ending

[ornate oak]

Ok, I guess I also had the option to just insult him and ridicule him, but that seemed pointless.

[solid otter]

'Insult' him is usually the one to go for. I think

[ornate oak]

I didn't even consider those because people only respond to that with defensiveness.

[solid otter]

Confronting topics make people defensive

Doesn't mean they're bad

[ornate oak]

Yeah, then they clam up and decide you're their enemy.

[solid otter]

Which he doesn't do, usually

And thats if you're too mean about it, or too persistent

[ornate oak]

A megalomaniacal mass murderer who can take constructive criticism is the most preposterous thing I could imagine.

[solid otter]

If that didn't work, a lot of therapy types wouldn't work

[solid otter]

Have you considered he's trying to change?

Thats why you dont get Roathe, i feel. You won't give him time or grace to show he is willing to change

[ornate oak]

He was very clearly not trying to change.

[solid otter]

... but he does

He does change

Thats the whole point of his character

[ornate oak]

I just saw excuses, arrogance, and self pity

And then eventually he was just like "Ok, I can let it go and be the villain actually."

[solid otter]

And where you see that, I can see a hurting man in denial and needing time to change.

[hearty pendant]

he's resisting it, but he still chose the opportunity to
that's why him taking the serum willingly hits him so hard. he's been resisting a choice he made

[solid otter]

He is actively in denial. He's gonna act a little off

[ornate oak]

You don't have time though. If you don't talk to him he doesn't progress. He's a videogame character.

[solid otter]

Which is where your fault is

You cant treat them as just video game characters, especially with a set of protos like the triad

[ornate oak]

They literally don't react unless you talk to them.

[solid otter]

You could get away with it when it came to the hex, they're literally imported to fail

[ornate oak]

You have to use the KIM system for them to have any development whatsover.

[solid otter]

Change doesnt happen by being stagnant.

You need time, yes, but you dont do nothing in that time

In that time you make him confront himself

[ornate oak]

In that time I was talking to him and he consistently showed that the only thing he was remorseful for was sacrificing his troops, which he didn't really talk about.

[solid otter]

Which is something he did, not something others did.

What else could he be sorry for?

The rebellion wasn't his idea and nor could he just say no to an historically violent executor

[ornate oak]

The constant threats, maybe.

[obtuse gyro]

Also like the two times you can actually get roathe to shut up was if you call him maidenless LOL

every other time he wont

[solid otter]

Have you considered those threats are a way to cover sore spots?

Much like a wounded and or cornered animal, they're usually the most violent

Gotta have some empathy for him

[solid otter]

This is immeasurably funny

[ornate oak]

He isn't a cornered animal. He's a human being capable of reason.

[solid otter]

But he is

[ornate oak]

I did try to have empathy for him. He never returned it.

[solid otter]

He is very much a cornered animal

Hurt and cornered

[hearty pendant]

that's why you have to keep pushing

[ornate oak]

He wasn't interested in empathy, just getting someone to stroke his ego.

[solid otter]

He is being forced to face things he did not want to know

And thats actually used in therapy! Being forced to confront harsh topics is a very well known therapy type

[obtuse gyro]

I mean, it really just sounds like you dodged all the responses where you get to poke at him

[ornate oak]

I dunno, maybe the fact that I finished floor 21 when I did skipped some things, cause I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

[solid otter]

Did you miss the line where he begs for us not to go further?

Theres a descendia line

I think it happens around the 18th time

Where he begs us to stop

[ornate oak]

Dude was a jerk the whole time, and I'm just using that word because appropriate words might be against the server rules. He just made excuses for the Orokin, and excuses for his behavior, and I never really got dialog options to empathize with him in any meaningful way unless it was outright coddling him.

[solid otter]

Theres also a matching kimchat, but that is able to be missed

[ornate oak]

I got that line, yeah. I never got a KIM from it.

[solid otter]

Why do you think he's wanting us to stop?

And why do you, when asked to stop, dont?

[ornate oak]

He sent me a message when I was at around 10 saying to stop, and I said I can't promise I'll stop, but we'll do it together.

ANd he just said something dismissive.

[solid otter]

Thats the good option there

[ornate oak]

Yeah, I gave all the good options I could think of, but he just didn't really seem to care.

[solid otter]

Your "good" options was to coddle him, outside that one for some reason

To force him to go on is to make him confront shit!

Which is good

Because surprisingly, Roathe does take advice

He may not act like it

But he does

[knotty pumice]

It's really interesting to see how different people interpret different characters. If I was a writer behind this, I'd die to read a chat thread like this one. Pure gold

[ornate oak]

After I completed floor 21 he just sent me a string of 7 voice recordings for a while, then asked if I could kill the Tenno.

[solid otter]

One of my favourite chats about Roathe is where he steals pastries. While on the surface it seems he did it for himself, theres the matter he stole enough for Marie and Lyon

[solid otter]

1. Chats are out of order and random
2. He is genuinely scared of the tenno

[ornate oak]

I didn't get that one.

[solid otter]

Its not a Roathe chat

I think its a Lyon chat?

[ornate oak]

Understandable, but like, it was all completely trivial conversation.

[solid otter]

Also. Do you have all convos on?

Because you absolutely can miss chats if you have all convos off

[solid otter]

It is interesting. I have the most awful tendency to read into characters far too much though

[ornate oak]

This is the convo that was most annoying for me. No option to tell him he had no idea what love even was. Just too completely nonsensical explanations, or "I don't know."

[knotty pumice]

Hey, reading too much into shit is my main hobby and I'm proud of it xD

[ornate oak]

I have them all on

Roath goes on the self agrandizing diatribe about how much Margulis' abuser actually loved her, and my only options are to agree with his BS premise and say either than evil people aren't capable of love, or that love is the ultimate reward.

Just complete nonsense answers that don't hit at the point at all. Or to say "I don't know."

[knotty pumice]

The dialog options we get, or lack thereof, grinds my gears extensively. I feel you

[solid otter]

Did you ignore the rest of that conversation? It was about if evil was something that is evil by itself or if it was something that is needed to be perceived to be actually evil?

Because like

[zenith jacinth]

Roach: "Wally isn't a god"

Drifter:
"Yes he is"
"Yes he is(different flavor)"
"I agree"

[knotty pumice]

I still want to yell at Roathe that I'm very much open to the theory ol' Al conceptualized Wally and thus birthed him, but show me the proof dammit. Otherwise your theory is just as much of a theory as the other theories so pls stop expecting me to accept it as gospel xD

[solid otter]

That's what the last option was. You need to acknowledge that evil isnt something that is just "evil", and that because of the nature of what is good and bad, it is susceptible to change, but won't go unpunished

[ornate oak]

Yeah, it was assinine.

[solid otter]

... thats why the last option didnt make sense

You ignored the context

[knotty pumice]

I cri

[ornate oak]

The context is just him doing a hypothetical about "what if it was actually fine for people to be evil?"

[zenith jacinth]

Welcome to another episode of "Warframe players don't read"!

[solid otter]

Well, he shouldn't even know of Wally before we told him as a start, so we can assume he got it from the operator report, which iirc mentions that it was maybe Albrecht who embodied wally somewhere.

[hearty pendant]

and then roathe says "nuh uh" to almost everything else about them

[solid otter]

No, it was a hypothetical on if an action is evil from the context around it, or if it is just evil

[ornate oak]

No action happens without context.

[solid otter]

So you agree with him

Thats what he was trying to say

Which makes room for forgiveness

[solid otter]

The notes are still so interesting. I still wonder who wrote them. It must be something in the sanctum, as it was sealed from Necraloid

[obtuse gyro]

Also like, Im quite surprised thats the conclusion you walked away with from roathe, known advocate of "Yea the orokin got what they deserved"

[ornate oak]

I went through that whole conversation reserving judgement until the very last second, trying to get at what Roath was trying to say, and in the end all it came down to was him trying to justify his believe that Ballas loved Margulis

[solid otter]

Which he did

He still abused her, yes, but he still loved her

Unfortunately both can be true

[ornate oak]

No he didn't. He didn't know what love was.

[hearty pendant]

i wouldn't put it above albrecht to figure out how to make a POM-2 do that on its own tbh
the issue comes with the fact that the sanctum was sealed off, so where was the author getting their info, regardless of who it was

[solid otter]

Unfortunately this isnt a mindset you can have. Being an abuser doesnt negate the feeling of love.

[ornate oak]

Ballas was obsessed with possessing Margulis. When it became clear he could not do so as fully as he desired, he had her murdered.

[obtuse gyro]

its almost like roathe talks about that

[ornate oak]

There was no love involved. Only a desire to possess and control.

[solid otter]

He. Still loved her. Before the tenno. He did genuinely love her. But. A narc is gonna narc

Narcissists are surprisingly capable of love

[ornate oak]

A desire to posess is not equal to love no matter how fanatical.

[solid otter]

Which.

Isnt what happened.

[zenith jacinth]

[solid otter]

Yeah. Maybe after she died

[hearty pendant]

later on, yes
the relationship seemingly started as genuine love, though. ballas is just incredibly possessive. when that got tripped, that's when problems started
we see this again during TNW. he's content to rule until the drifter and the lotus will not kneel. then the system has to go, too

[ornate oak]

It's exactly what happened. he wanted her. And he did everything he could to posess her as fully as he could. Then when that failed he had her killed.

[solid otter]

Which as much as I hate to acknowledge, he would've been under stress to agree with the side to murder

[solid otter]

... no

That's like. A whole misconception

[obtuse gyro]

he did everything? funny roathe explicitly mentions how he actually didnt do that

[solid otter]

He did not order her death

It was in fact, the other executors

[ornate oak]

He literally pronounced the sentence. We hear him do it.

[solid otter]

Yeah because he was the last vote???

Its a consistent pattern he had

[hearty pendant]

and he also says "Margulis, why?" right after..?

[ornate oak]

Yeah, he voted for her death.

[solid otter]

He voted with 3 other executors.

[hearty pendant]

roathe also explains that there was pressure on him to do so iirc

[ornate oak]

@hearty pendant Yes, he's upset that she "betrayed" him by having values beyond devotion to him.

[solid otter]

Which we could assume really wanted to kill him.

[zenith jacinth]

"He could've had her with one word but didn't"
CLEARLY he never loved her

[hearty pendant]

executions are unanimous or they don't happen, all 7 voted for death there iirc

[obtuse gyro]

6 others actually, that doodoo was unanimous

[solid otter]

Oh shit

[ornate oak]

I don't equate refraining from doing things we can't name in this discord with love.

[solid otter]

Thats. Even worse.

[obtuse gyro]

yea nihil actually gets got because of that one rule

like in glassmaker

[zenith jacinth]

You are. Intensely biased

[obtuse gyro]

like we literally catch him with it

[solid otter]

Oh yeah yo right. Idk why but I forgor to count glassing as murder???

Its been yoinks since I listened to glass maker. Or fought nihil

I only poke him occasionally

[ornate oak]

If that's your response to me suggesting that the things he could ahve done but didn't prove he loved her... I don't value your opinion.

[solid otter]

Christ on a stick

Okay so lets explain this

Ballas could've been killed for not voting for the execution

[ornate oak]

So he valued his life over hers, which, reasonable, but definitely not an example of what Roathe claims about him.

[solid otter]

He wouldve been killed, and Margulis also wouldve been killed.

She dies either way.

[obtuse gyro]

Hang on, its also like roathe is made to talk about Ballas executing margulis

[solid otter]

Its almost as if Ballas was between a rock and a hard place...

Don't get me wrong. I have no sympathy for him

[obtuse gyro]

nono, roathe says you musnt assume that there were other factors at play

[solid otter]

But he legitimately had no choice

[hearty pendant]

you're making it out like the ballas that votes for margulis's death and the ballas that originally fell in love with her are in the exact same situation

[zenith jacinth]

Mate. He literally chose to ask her if she wants to be with him, was SHY about it, and would probably have accepted a no. He didn't just refrain from ordering her to submit, he didn't even consider it an option

[solid otter]

I feel as if he would let Margulis stab him

[ornate oak]

They're both the most powerful person in the known universe.

[solid otter]

What-

He's uh. He's dead. So I doubt that.

[obtuse gyro]

Also separately, you cant justifiably look at Roathe2.2 and walk away with the conclusion that roathe only justifies Bargulis.

Especially given that Roathe tells you the play by play on why it all went to shit

[zenith jacinth]

I get that all we see of ballas is him being a narcissistic murderous prick, but keep in mind that that's all after the "devils", in his eyes, took his lover away from him

[solid otter]

The orokin are only powerful when they're in control of the empire

[zenith jacinth]

No.

[solid otter]

-# almost as if its a regime

[obtuse gyro]

Ballas is just one of seven

[hearty pendant]

they are not, really. ballas was one of the Seven, but he was not an emperor, nor was he significantly above the other executors. hell, he was only near the top of that chain because he was good at negotiating, apparently

[zenith jacinth]

Even during the empire ballas wasn't a top dog

[obtuse gyro]

https://tenor.com/view/locutus-borg-star-trek-gif-10680673

[ornate oak]

Look a great example of of just how ridiculously out of touch with reality Roathe is. He says as an argument for how much Ballas loved Margulis that if Margulis wanted a baby killed Ballas would have done so immediately. This is a meaningless statement. The Orokin didn't value the lives of anyone but themselves. Of course he would have killed that baby. He would have killed it for a scone.

[solid otter]

His power was deadass artificially made by him

[zenith jacinth]

let's be honest ballas was definitely a bottom

[solid otter]

He is fr

[zenith jacinth]

Bad joke

[solid otter]

He would wait till the end to vote

He made the power by waiting

[zenith jacinth]

And yet ballas valued margulis'

[solid otter]

Respectable

I can get behind that

[hearty pendant]

the procrastinator

[ornate oak]

You're really not getting what I'm saying at all and I'm not sure how to change that.

[zenith jacinth]

🪞

[ornate oak]

We seem to have completely incompatible frames of reference, scrap

[solid otter]

There's multiple people trying to explain to you why that is factually wrong

Maybe if there's multiple people saying thats not what happened, maybe you're incorrect....

[solid otter]

He's unfortunately based for that

[zenith jacinth]

Your frame of reference is ignorantly narrow and completely biased against ballless

[hearty pendant]

ballless,,

[solid otter]

Again, I hate ballas but I can acknowledge both sides

Something im great for

[zenith jacinth]

I hate ballas as much as more than the next guy but no human is pure irredeemable evil

[solid otter]

Eh my father is pretty up there

Doesnt deserve death tho

Thats a mercy

[ornate oak]

Yeah, I listened to the entire thing with him explaining Ballas and Margulis and it's just a textbook excample of a privileged abuser taking a liking to someone less powerful than him, seeking to posess them in a way he thinks is "loving" and then proving he never really was even capable of love by having them freaking murdered the moment they don't show sufficient devotion for his liking.

[hearty pendant]

only point of no return is not wanting to change. can't help someone that doesn't want it

[zenith jacinth]

Even the most evil people have positive aspects, just usually severely overshadowed ones

[solid otter]

Gonna ask you rq

Where did he abuse Margulis. Not the lotus, but Margulis.

The time he was forced to put her to death?

[hearty pendant]

huh? he didn't have her executed when she began loving the tenno. she was executed because she was hiding what were considered war criminals and traitors???

[ornate oak]

He had her murdered for having values other than mindless devotion to him.

Roathe excuses it as him "going insane"

[solid otter]

No, the 7 had her murdered for harbouring war criminals

Not ballas. The 7.

[zenith jacinth]

For harbour? Fah harbah...

[ornate oak]

Ballas was the most powerful member of the 7

[solid otter]

No he wasn't.

Not in executions.

All of them wanted her dead, he factually didn't

[obtuse gyro]

Ballas did try to get her out of it by telling her to recant

[zenith jacinth]

He was a member of the seven, who are all about equally powerful. Arguably nitokh was the most powerful

[obtuse gyro]

and she refused

[solid otter]

But he was forced to agree because there was a high chance to get murdered for it.

[zenith jacinth]

Nitokh controlled the entire bloody military

[solid otter]

Niktoh also probably hated ballas enough to kill him too

The seven did not like each other

[zenith jacinth]

Nitokh was apathetic enough to kill any orokin

[solid otter]

But i feel as if niktoh was far more dangerous

[hearty pendant]

One of
and, again, only because he continuously waited to vote on things. he was powerful because he "needed" to be swayed

[zenith jacinth]

Based on roach's accounts, put nitokh in a room with another orokin and it's a 50/50 between murder and having to bleach the room

[solid otter]

Not for executions. And power isn't important when theres 6 more also very powerful people wanting you dead.

[ornate oak]

So he cared more about democracy than Margulis?

[zenith jacinth]

Bruh

[solid otter]

He cared to not be murdered and her to die anyways.

[hearty pendant]

he cared more about himself, which you have previously stated was reasonable. he votes "no" and he's just as likely as margulis to get assassinated sometime soon

[zenith jacinth]

Ballas: tries everything to have margulis live but fails
"Nah he didn't love her"

[solid otter]

And he would absolutely be held from continuity

[ornate oak]

And he couldn't think of anything to do but to just let them kill her. Ballas, the man who orchestrated the fall of the Empire and his own survival. Ballas who never met a trust he wouldn't betray, couldn't think of a way to save the "love of his life" from the government he was one of the powerful members of?

[solid otter]

Now that we know thats something that can happen. Orokin dying even in the peak of the empire

[solid otter]

Because... he would die as well? She would die regardless, the very least he could do was to kill the people who killed her

[ornate oak]

The only thing Ballas could tthink of to do, was just go along with it.

[zenith jacinth]

If he tried to rebel there the new war wouldn't have happened

[hearty pendant]

he tried to get her to recant. she refused. i'd imagine jade light would prevent continuity shenanigans, if you could even set up such a thing in an Execution Chamber.

[obtuse gyro]

Ballas orchestrating the fall of the empire and Ballas letting marge get executed, surely these two events are unrelated!

[solid otter]

Yeah this is a whole trauma response btw, flight flight fawn and freeze, the whole thing out here. I sure hope you don't judge folk for fawning in a bad situation

[obtuse gyro]

-# shut up Hunhow dont talk about ballas's emails

[ornate oak]

No, I don't judge real normal people for that. Ballas was literally one of the most powerful people to ever exist within the context of this fictional world.

[solid otter]

Except he wasn't

[ornate oak]

He literally orchestrated the downfall of his entire civilization.

[obtuse gyro]

And he was still powerless then!

[obtuse gyro]

you wanna hazard a guess why?

[zenith jacinth]

AFTERWARDS

[solid otter]

Also, you gotta treat video game characters as real people

[zenith jacinth]

How bloody dense are ye

[hearty pendant]

and that means he can't have a trauma response?

[solid otter]

Thats how you get the best story aspects

By treating them as real

Like. Stories rely on that to make them good

[ornate oak]

No, you don't get to say "it's a trauma response" for failing to do anything at all to stop the love of your life from being killed when you're literally so powerful you could bring down the entirety of society single handedly.

[solid otter]

Okay but it is

[zenith jacinth]

He. Tried. Everything.

[solid otter]

He was scared of dying

And he went along to not die

[ornate oak]

What indicates that?

[zenith jacinth]

And. The. Destruction. Was. Planned. After. She. Died.

[solid otter]

Roathe for one, and the very very very bloodthirsty executors who have killed for less?

[zenith jacinth]

Margulis' execution was the REASON for ballas' plan to destroy the empire

[hearty pendant]

he didn't have time to do that??
the entire reason he orchestrated the downfall of the orokin empire is that margulis was dead and he had time
executions happen on a schedule, the downfall of an empire happens when he triggers it.

[solid otter]

Saying "he could've done this" doesnt mean he isnt having a form of trauma response

[hearty pendant]

the entire reason continuity exists is to avoid death, why would he not be

[zenith jacinth]

Are you filter feeding your way through the lore or how are you so intensely biased and uneducated on the existing counter arguments

[ornate oak]

I'm saying when you're as powerful as Ballas you don't get to make that excuse.

[solid otter]

You can't just say "why didnt you say no" to someone who is terrified of dying.

... so powerful people cant be victims

[ornate oak]

"Please stop screaming so much as I kill you, it's honestly traumatizing."

[solid otter]

Do you understand why that sentence is bad?

[obtuse gyro]

Right so, what exactly would you think Ballas should have done?

[zenith jacinth]

I'm regretting waking up, and it wasn't even my choice

[obtuse gyro]

dont say "tell the other Seven no"

[solid otter]

"No, you shoudlve just said no, ignore that you're gonna be killed for it"

There's a million people who would slap you for saying that.

[ornate oak]

I'm saying that people at the top of a social hierarchy don't get to use the trauma the harm they cause others might inflict on them as an excuse, because then they could use it as an excuse for ANYTHING they want to do.

[solid otter]

Okay but they're still experiencing traumatic shit

Regardless of whether their powerful or not

What you are saying, that because of the caste he was born in, he can't have a traumatic response?

[ornate oak]

And no moral person should accept that as a justification for anything, because if they do, it's a justification for everything.

[zenith jacinth]

You're still conveniently ignoring that he was very much forced to vote for her execution

[solid otter]

... except when its a real thing

Say if a person was forced to do heinous shit to a person, because they are scared

That suddenly is understandable and fair?

"Power" doesn't mean shit

[ornate oak]

The bigot's trauma response to seeing the object of their hatred in a non-subjugated state is the justification for countless atrocities.

[solid otter]

It doesn't mean shit when dying is a very real possibility

[solid otter]

Depends on if the bigot knows no better. And also, what??

[hearty pendant]

what

[zenith jacinth]

Should also note that ballas' grandiose destruction of the empire relied entirely on infiltration and the element of surprise

[solid otter]

I hope you know that bigots absolutely can be forgiven

[ornate oak]

ANd I think that's about all I can say on the subject without getting way too far into IRL stuff.

[solid otter]

As the literal minority god

They absolutely can be forgiven

[obtuse gyro]

oh hey its the main theme of the triad!

[zenith jacinth]

What the hell are you even talking about

[solid otter]

I am
A person of colour, mentally and physically disabled, transgender and pansexual, and i can tell you for a fact. A bigot can be forgiven.

[ornate oak]

Anyone can be forgiven. That doesn't mean everyone deserves forgiveness. It's a case by case basis, and Roathe never showed he even wanted it.

[solid otter]

Its just if they wish to change, and if they knew any better.

[zenith jacinth]

Don't forget, furry too

[solid otter]

Oh yeah and a furry, but thats slowly becoming more normal

[ornate oak]

We never got the chance to really even try to convince him he needed forgiveness.

[solid otter]

OH AND IM AMBIDEXTROUS

[zenith jacinth]

Bi handed

[ornate oak]

Cool. I wish I was too.

[solid otter]

Im genuinely the minority god its so funny

[zenith jacinth]

I need some humour in this discussion

[solid otter]

Uhm

Loid probably... uh

[zenith jacinth]

Don't force a joke, inserting humour is my job

[solid otter]

Would do weed

Imagine Loid doing weed

[zenith jacinth]

Nestawood

[ornate oak]

UH, btw, if I say anything confusing in context of Scrap's comments it's probably because I set them to ignore after they consistently made responses that didn't actually adress what I was saying.

[solid otter]

Give him a giant ass bong and let him green out from it

[zenith jacinth]

Bruh

[solid otter]

He stands up for so long. He cant sit down

[zenith jacinth]

Well guess I can stop wasting my time on an ignorant bullhead now at least

[fading current]

https://tenor.com/view/shinji-gif-15934416100573032598

[hearty pendant]

-# taking the serum willingly is his want to be redeemed

[solid otter]

Wonder if he still hates Albrecht for that

[ornate oak]

I have no idea how he thought that was supposed to work.

[solid otter]

Bcs doesnt he just assume that Albrecht just kidnapped his ass and forcibly injected it? So like. What now lmao

[cosmic prawn]

Roathe just wanted out at that point, he admits over and over that Orokin civilisation had lived past it's expiry and had completely rotted to the core.

[solid otter]

He and son would get along for it.

[hearty pendant]

he was on his way to the "kill everyone and take over w/ nitokh" coup when albrecht approached him. albrecht offers redemption. roathe takes it
not finding the line but iirc roathe also requested the memory "wipe"
idk if being stranded in 1899 was presented as part of the plan or not, though

[solid otter]

Albrecht is funny like that

[ornate oak]

I have no idea how either of them thought that was supposed to work.

[cosmic prawn]

Neither did either of them at that point, it's the entire point of the experiment

"Can the Orokin ever be forgiven?"

[hearty pendant]

he was removed from the system that was keeping him that way and placed with two people that were instructed to help him

[ornate oak]

Yeah, that question itself was assinine from the start. Why woudl the Orokin ever seek forgiveness in the first place?

[solid otter]

Its not even "the orokin", its supposed to be Albrecht

[solid otter]

Its not the orokin. Its Albrecht.

[hearty pendant]

albrecht is, abstractly, finding out if he can be forgiven

[ornate oak]

They were theocratically narcissistic.

[solid otter]

Because arguably the shit Roathe did is worse

[ornate oak]

THemselves being infallable was literally , not figurative, their religion.

[solid otter]

Okay but Albrecht isn't

Albrecht actively isn't

He deadass sees Loid as above him

[hearty pendant]

albrecht is a wet cat to anyone that actually knows him

[solid otter]

Which is wild

[solid otter]

Wet opossum

[ornate oak]

Yeah, I don't get what Albrecht's deal is, but using an entirely unrepentant mass murderer as an example for himself was pretty silly.

[solid otter]

Roathe is the wet cat

[solid otter]

... he killed a lot of animals brotato

[hearty pendant]

'if this guy, who is probably worse than me, can be forgiven, then maybe i can as well'

[cosmic prawn]

And the result is that, "Yes, any given Orokin could be forgiven, should they seek it earnestly."

[solid otter]

Which is something Albrecht wants, he just. Can't afford to do that rn

[ornate oak]

Roathe is a wet cat in the sense that cats are remorslessly murderous maniacs.

[solid otter]

... have you ever owned a cat

[ornate oak]

I have owned six

[solid otter]

I could say that about dogs too

[ornate oak]

This most recent one likes to try to eat my my limbs.

[solid otter]

Then clearly you hate them, christ.

[hearty pendant]

roathe is a wet cat in that he's completely pathetic whenever that 'i could not care less about any of this' attitude drops
have you heard his downed lines

[ornate oak]

Not at all. I love cats. I just don't like Roathe because he's a human.

[solid otter]

He is so pathetic and its so funny.

Albrecht is just bigger than Roathe i feel

Like. Its not true physically

But Albrecht feels bigger than Roathe

[ornate oak]

Tell me where I'm wrong about cats?

[solid otter]

Yeah ive fostered genuine sweethearts who've never bit me once