spoiler-chat

[flat loom]

Random, but ngl, your pfp looked like phoenix wright on first glance before I looked closer and it was ellen lol

[pseudo sable]

ahah

[zenith jacinth]

name didn't give it away?

[hearty pendant]

they took control of the loop, but did not make a new one

[pseudo sable]

yeayea

thats what i meant sry

[flat loom]

Nyop, took me thrice a glance to click it was ellen joe from zzz

[pseudo sable]

lol

[zenith jacinth]

impressive

[flat loom]

Legally blind

[cerulean kiln]

Inbox message:
What happened?

Drifter,

I can make no sense at all of these readings. Your site of temporal injection has somehow shifted. Your loop now encompasses the entire year of 1999.

Albrecht's interference is to blame, no doubt. What does he feel you need more time to achieve? He surely must have given guidance, however cryptic!

I can offer one service, at least. I discovered a clandestine blueprint among Albrecht's personal effects, for a warframe so secret it was never named. It is yours.

—Loid

[pseudo sable]

yea

[peak heath]

Still funny how the Drifter can somehow go "nuh uh" through the undercroft and change some of the historic defeats of the Tenno into victories. Or remove armies of opponents from ever existing. If Teshin is to be believed through his dialogue in the Circuit.

[flat loom]

Had to take a bullet before drifter remember they can turn back time

[pseudo sable]

wait wtf

who was that warframe again

dante?

[peak heath]

Cyte-09

[pseudo sable]

oh lol

[peak heath]

Reserved as a black operations assassin for the Orokin.

[pseudo sable]

my memory was so skewed

i forgot that the zariman accident was like wayyyyy in ancient history

[peak heath]

Which is interesting considering they already have assassination specialized Warframes.

[pseudo sable]

ash lol

[zenith jacinth]

can always need more

[flat loom]

Ash proto definitely gonna be in tau

[peak heath]

Doesn't help how there is more than one Zariman 10-0. Like, only one was ever launched but it is subject to void-time anomalies as is the drifter.

[flat loom]

A whole council of assassins

[cerulean kiln]

Cyte could’ve been made before Ash or vice versa tbh

[pseudo sable]

yea theres no real timeline for almost any warframe

like creation time

[flat loom]

Ash being first would make sense if we're going traditional

[pseudo sable]

relative to one anotehr

[flat loom]

But orokin already had guns and the orokin are basically just future humans

[peak heath]

Original timeline Zariman 10-0 was retrieved from the void and decommissioned. But the one we can visit now is the Drifter's Zariman 10-0 that never got pulled out. It is now serving as an interface through the void and into Duviri.

[flat loom]

So yeah vice versa make sense too

[pseudo sable]

yeah cuz some timeline shit happened and the zariman from drifters timeline got pulled into our timeline

[hearty pendant]

the original one wasn't decommissioned? it just slipped back into the void

[zenith jacinth]

we know excal was the 1st

[pseudo sable]

ofc

[peak heath]

Exactly, just another spool of timeline written over the original. Another equally valid reality laid over the other.

[cerulean kiln]

Nah, they threw Operators back into the Void

[flat loom]

Isn't the zariman now the same one from the incident

[peak heath]

Was it? I thought the Orokin destroyed it after they retrieved it. My bad then.

[flat loom]

Only drifter is the anomaly

[pseudo sable]

they both had the incident

theyre 2 different zarimans

[obtuse gyro]

If you ask me theres really only one zariman and its acting as a Super Zariman

[pseudo sable]

Zariman Prime

[hearty pendant]

eleanor r3c4

[zenith jacinth]

made me imagine a zariman with a giant superman logo spay painted on it

[cerulean kiln]

There’s Zarimen parked inside the Zariman

[peak heath]

Ah so it is multiple Zariman's overlaid on top of the others.

[pseudo sable]

so how did the orokin make it to tau

[flat loom]

Zariman-ception

[obtuse gyro]

Super Zariman

[zenith jacinth]

rail

[obtuse gyro]

extra-solar rail

[peak heath]

Sentients built their end of the solar rail which made stable FTL possible.

[pseudo sable]

ah nice

[flat loom]

Damn it, where's my train DE

[hearty pendant]

sentients sent to built the solar rail > orokin get impatient, send the zariman > zariman incident > solar rail completed

[zenith jacinth]

the zariman was sent by impatient orokin, the sentients were already doing their job

[zenith jacinth]

in albrecht's labs

[flat loom]

It went and gone

[cerulean kiln]

Who needs trains in a spacefaring society?

[peak heath]

The Zariman 10-0 was the impatient one. There were many other Zarimans. (The 1-9 waves) that weren't "manned".

[flat loom]

Millisecond of a screentime

[hearty pendant]

-# now i have to question what the actual plural of zariman is, thanks

[peak heath]

They contained the sentients and other terraforming engines and whatnot.

[flat loom]

It could go well with my collection of vehicles

A railjack, orbiter, ain't enough

[zenith jacinth]

a bike

[flat loom]

A galleon would be great

[hearty pendant]

we only have detail on the 5 series and the 10-0
the 5s were world-seeders, terraformers. the 10-0 was the colony ship that got the project cancelled

[pseudo sable]

railjack orbiter hoverboard motorcycle

[peak heath]

I want an Orokin capital-ship. I want some of that sci-fi hypertech cruisers.

[zenith jacinth]

big robot

[flat loom]

Hunhullus but EVEN BIGGER BUT NECRAMECH

[cerulean kiln]

Vessels in open world when DE?

[zenith jacinth]

a what

[pseudo sable]

whats next, we are going to get tanks too

[flat loom]

But instead of human skull, sentient skull

[pseudo sable]

M1 Abrams Prime

[zenith jacinth]

you move forwards 1 step and instantly hit the border

[hearty pendant]

vessel vs the eidolons

[flat loom]

"TENNO ON DECK, MAN THE CANNONS"

[fast knot]

And you just play mortal kombat with them

[flat loom]

"SIR WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH ON THE ULTRA-MEGA-SUPER-HYPER BEAM"

[hearty pendant]

turn it into a kaiju battle, this is how we make eidolon farming fun

[flat loom]

"LOAD IT GODDAMN IT"

Freaking gokaiger this game

[obtuse gyro]

zarimen

[zenith jacinth]

I call dibs on legally distinct stinger arachnid vessel

[peak heath]

The Orokin did have tanks. They're mentioned in some of the tank traps you can buy from the good father.

[flat loom]

Does it roll or hover hmm

[zenith jacinth]

vilcor?

[peak heath]

I want to see an Orokin capital class ship. Like the Gildergloss and whatnot.

[peak heath]

No, the French priest.

[hearty pendant]

no, he said the good father /s

[zenith jacinth]

I wouldn't call lyon a good father/priest

he's doubting his faith

[flat loom]

I wouldn't call friday a good father either but Marie isn't prepared for that conversation

[peak heath]

Two arms, one eye. As opposed to two eyes one arm. Though if you do look through the eye patch the Harrow protoframe does have two eyes despite dialogue saying they're only rocking one.

[zenith jacinth]

we now have father lyon and father vilcor. can we call vilcor dad to differentiate

[zenith jacinth]

albrecht

[flat loom]

I like calling him friday

[zenith jacinth]

not even with doktor?

[flat loom]

https://tenor.com/view/super-sentai-ninja-sentai-kakuranger-today-is-friday-in-california-gif-25093546

[flat loom]

I don't see no phd

[peak heath]

But I want to imagine what sort of crazy extreme high technology the Orokin had. Like I bet they were rocking things like weaponized concepts and whatnot. Let's make space and time boil.

[zenith jacinth]

if little duck got a medical license would she be a ducktor

[zenith jacinth]

he has the orokin equivalent

[flat loom]

Fair

[zenith jacinth]

that's CE

[flat loom]

Citigal Extremes?

[hearty pendant]

yea close enough

[zenith jacinth]

conceptual E

[peak heath]

But yeah, the type of high tech I'm referring to was their truly high end stuff they had to abandon due to the sentients. That they referred to the Warframes using guns and blades as archaic.

Silver Myrmidons. Mist-circuitry.

[flat loom]

Here's a thought, with enough conceptual embodiment-ing, would the drifter be able to dream of changing their physical appearance?

[peak heath]

Also the sentients were Orokin tech. Obviously with some evolution of their own.

[hearty pendant]

what's the roathe convo about the first big ship sent to fight the sentients being entirely disabled and left to crash into the planet it was in orbit of

[peak heath]

They can, as we've seen with other void touched beings. Nevermind their access to Orokin cosmetic technology too. Which you can see from the focus shops.

[pseudo sable]

these cutscenes are so cute

[flat loom]

But, without the void's presence, would it stay

[peak heath]

You can buy the skin treatment to turn your skin Orokin blue.

[pseudo sable]

my operator is liek a total femboy and he also has the deep heron voice

[flat loom]

Or say, weaker

[pseudo sable]

so whenever he talks it's so off but i lvoe it

[peak heath]

It's also interesting that you get confirmation that Orokin tended to learn to recognize people through speech patterns and mannerisms. Their stride, and whatnot. Due to their bodies not remaining consistent due to the body swapping and modding.

Also Orokin private academy hazing was so bad that the headmaster kept Kuva on hand to swap out dying orokin brats into the bodies of servants in case the situation called for it.

[flat loom]

Reason I asked is because.. this is how my drifter is drawn lmao

[pseudo sable]

yoo

[flat loom]

My drifter embodied duviri while being with the krubies lmao

Now I'm also commissioning a fellow artist friend the connection eleanor and my drifter made upon meeting during the time travel to 1999

In my delusional era

[peak heath]

I wonder if warframes spore. Aside from Nidus that is. Not counting ephemera effects. I know tenno leave void residue around but that's normal as they're creatures of the void and warframes directly channel void energy.

[zenith jacinth]

probably not

[peak heath]

Like, just infested spore masses sometimes being shed by them. I would think the Orokin would've designed then to be relatively sterile that way. To prevent unwanted infested breakouts.

[zenith jacinth]

the helmith in general is very passive

[peak heath]

You can culture the helminth from samples of them though. But that's deliberate action taken on the Warframe.

One fantastic addition to the lore was Lizzie. It was so fresh seeing an infested perspective. Learning the infestation transcends linear time and whatnot.

Multiple different hiveminds, compound minds, individuals within greater collectives but still retaining identity.

[abstract sorrel]

How did the Orokin keep the peace

That’s what i always wondered

[peak heath]

We do know that the infested do have specialized organs for interfacing with hiveminds too. From the lore attached to the dissected bits of Deimos fish.

[peak heath]

Brutal oppression and brush wars for fun.

[abstract sorrel]

Yes but they have to have some actual… government?

Beyond just the executors

[cerulean kiln]

Emperors

[peak heath]

They had feudal/caste bureaucracies under them.

[abstract sorrel]

🗿they did even less than the Seven

[cerulean kiln]

Vice Regents

[peak heath]

Armies of proxies, Kuva bound Dax. Entrenched class and caste systems. How do modern governments propagate themselves? Continual reproduction of their same structures and institutions.

And most importantly, a monopoly on violence. As all states are defined by.

[cerulean kiln]

Also

Dax couldn’t harm them

Grineer are coded to serve which worked for most of the Empires reign

Warframes usually got the job done with the rest

The real question is who is going to challenge them?

[abstract sorrel]

This sounds like shit

The orokin seem like they had no idea how to rule outside of just their top people

[cerulean kiln]

We don’t see much of it to even say that

It clearly worked if they survived

[peak heath]

And again, they had actual governmental functions and institutions that existed under them. Plus other positions like archimedians and whatnot. Plus you had merchant lords and whatnot.

[cerulean kiln]

Also consider any attempt to kill them just led to them swapping bodies so it wasn’t a big deal

[peak heath]

What they lost was the monopoly on violence when the tenno, empowered as they were, decided to coup them.

[abstract sorrel]

I wonder if they had a Senate at least

[cerulean kiln]

Executors are the Senate of the Empire

[peak heath]

The Executors were the top governing body, wielding the power of the Emperors for them to ostensibly represent their interests.

[cerulean kiln]

For the most part the Executors did what the Emperors wanted along with their own stuff

[peak heath]

Exactly.

[cerulean kiln]

Then there’s the Vice Regents who acted on behalf of the higher ranking Orokin

[abstract sorrel]

See that was their problem until the end, too centralized and left too many people at the bottom

If the Orokin fell the Empire crumbled to dust

[lyric grove]

We play as and are the title elite super soldiers of the Orokin Empire. We are mostly given information about the Wars they fought, hence knowing little of the governance. But given that the Orokin were a caste unto themselves ontops of bodies of civilians and castes all the way down, which were described as having an overpopulation problem.

[peak heath]

The Orokin were violently expunged by the Tenno. They didn't account for it, and their immortality made them think they were eternal.

I remember Roathe telling the drifter of a whole generation of Orokin getting mulched in the old war. Facing true deaths due to the circumstances of the war and getting Kuva shocked to liquify as to not leak secrets to the sentients.

[cerulean kiln]

They didn’t account for Ballas planning to kill them

[peak heath]

That, or Roathe and Executor Nikitu or whatever her name was also planning a grand coup. That required that the war continue.

Separate plots btw.

[cerulean kiln]

Yeah

[peak heath]

Also there were many revolts against the Orokin. They ended up getting out down by Dax or by the Tenno.

Such was the sophistication and concentration of their physical power. But the system was eating itself.

[cerulean kiln]

Naga Drums made it easier to kill the Orokin because most of them were all in one place

[abstract sorrel]

This is literally no different than Cleon’s Genetic Dynasty from Foundation, if you get rid of the top (Cleons/Orokin) the rest disintegrates

Cough

[peak heath]

Especially with the uppermost of the upper crust being there. But the empire was fully extant throughout the whole origin system. The Tenno were thorough none the less. As Roathe points out.

[cerulean kiln]

Any that were in other locations we just hunted down

[peak heath]

The fact that we've only seen a handful of Orokin. The entrati were in the void until recently. Submerging to deny the moon to the sentients. Two executors being around because one glassed themself and the other was Ballas. A tricky devil indeed.

[abstract sorrel]

When you think about it, the Orokin’s ruling dynasty was really an affront to humanity

A immortal aristocracy lording over everyone

[peak heath]

The Orokin caste was an affront to humanity.

[abstract sorrel]

I just know they had to be despised near the end of it all

[peak heath]

There was still a lot of distance between the uppermost and lowermost orokin. But yeah that whole caste deserved to be destroyed.

The collapse happened and people recovered afterwards. Naturally, the Grineer and Corpus aren't great. Still an improvement over the Orokin though.

[abstract sorrel]

There has to be something better for humanity than Corpus and Grineer

We need a Federation of Mankind of some sort

[peak heath]

Nevermind the Grineer still being run by one or two Orokin holdovers.

[peak heath]

Oh 100% but that sort of story isn't what is being told in Warframe.

[abstract sorrel]

🥀

[peak heath]

I'd love to get deep into the politics of settings and what I think should happen. But that's beyond what a live service MMO would want to do I think.

[abstract sorrel]

I too am interested in the politics of settings

[peak heath]

You're not going to get systemic critiques from these sorts of places.

[pine eagle]

it stopped at 15 for me, cant get past VM: LIES, is there a daily cap?

[obtuse gyro]

aside from the usual "hyper oligarchs who don't seem to die tend to ruin what they touch"

[cerulean kiln]

Have you defeated Roathe 21 times yet?

[pine eagle]

Yup, hes already begging to stop lol

[cerulean kiln]

Then wait a day for the rest

[undone lodge]

If you try to confess to same batch protos they get angry and become NoDate

[steady abyss]

The browse.wf site's Kimulacrum can help

[hollow flower]

is there Kim system bug with Roathe and Marie?

[steady abyss]

What was the most recent one for each of them that you did?

[pseudo sable]

by the way the old peace takes place after the old war right

[tropic venture]

after Lotus Eaters

effectively happens at the "same time" as Drifter is in 1999

[pseudo sable]

i dont mean the quest i mean the actual old peace

[balmy storm]

The old peace is a quest where we are reliving our memories of a time of peace during the old war, the war continued after the quest was over for a time

[tropic venture]

oh the flashbacks are from during the Old War

[pseudo sable]

during?

[tropic venture]

yes

[balmy storm]

During

[pseudo sable]

wtf how

[steady abyss]

basically a brief pause during

[balmy storm]

Wdym how???

[tropic venture]

Do you know what a peace treaty is

[balmy storm]

They were at war
Had a brief time of peace
That was a lie, the Orokin were never about peace
The war continued

[hollow flower]

for lyon today but reothe and marie like 3 day ago i think

[pseudo sable]

ah right the treaty

[steady abyss]

I mean the specific chats you picked.

[balmy storm]

We also know it continued cause the one moment of the old war we see takes place after the old peace

[pseudo sable]

so the old peace basically was after the tenno rebelled against the orokin at the drum thing

[balmy storm]

No, before

[pseudo sable]

im just trying to get order of events correct here

[tropic venture]

No, the Night of the Naga Drums was after the Old War concluded

[pseudo sable]

wtf

im so rusty on this shit jesus christ

what led up to the naga drums thing

[steady abyss]

stuff clem
https://wiki.warframe.com/w/Story_and_History#The_Old_Peace

[balmy storm]

Old war starts
Orokin are losing
Ballas makes Warframes
Warframes go feral
Zariman comes back
Tenno pilot Warframes
War continues now on more equal footing
At some point sentient fragments got ahold of Xenoflora and gained sapience away from the waring hivemind
Old Peace quest
Old War continues
Hunhow destroys the rail
Old War is done, nobody really won
Then the Night of the Naga drums.

[zenith jacinth]

the entire old war

[tropic venture]

Sentients sent to Tau
Orokin get impatient and send the Zariman Ten-zero
Zariman fails to get there
Sentients set up the Solar Rail connecting Tau to Sol
Sentients rebel and attack the Origin System
Zariman returns from the Void, children are put in stasis
Warframes are invented to fight the Sentients
Transference for Warframes
is discovered
War continues
Peace treaty
Treaty is broken
War continues
War eventually ends
Celebration ceremony is Night of the Naga Drums

[balmy storm]

The xenoflora placement is likely much earlier but the brief time of peace wasn’t formed til during the war, far enough into it that the Warframes were tenno controlled

[pseudo sable]

right

[tropic venture]

Too much to summarize in one message

[balmy storm]

More so the sentients attacked first, we don’t know why

[pseudo sable]

and what was the reason for the tenno to kill the orokin at the naga drums thing again

[undone lodge]

They killed Margulis

[balmy storm]

Sentients go to tau
Zariman
Old war
Warframes
Tenno controlled wfs
Old peace
Old war continued
Night of the naga drums

[pseudo sable]

right

ok

[balmy storm]

It was Ballas’ plan but we had many reasons

[tropic venture]

1. Orokin were not great
2. Natah made us do it
3. Kullervo convinced us
4. We personally hated them
5. Ballas schemed it so

[pseudo sable]

mhm

[undone lodge]

Like there’s other reasons but according to Drifter that was their main personal motivation

[balmy storm]

They did kill our adoptive mother

That amongst every other possible reason we could have are all valid reasons

[steady abyss]

wonder how things would have happened if they killed the Lotus completely

[balmy storm]

When?

[steady abyss]

DE did a poll some years back

before New War was finalized

but only on Twitter, so it limited the reach

[zenith jacinth]

doubt it'd be any different

[balmy storm]

Oh like if she was just killed off during the New War quest

[zenith jacinth]

I mean the story

[steady abyss]

tbh, was hoping they'd move away from that character, though in a way, they still have

[zenith jacinth]

they wouldn't kill lotus

[balmy storm]

New War is kinda the end to her primary arc so like

[steady abyss]

at the time, the Lotus was getting egregious

[zenith jacinth]

not really?

[steady abyss]

just overused and too much of "do things because I say"

[balmy storm]

I disagree lol

[zenith jacinth]

do you know what a mission handler is

[steady abyss]

there are other characters

[tropic venture]

I mean, she's been our main operative since the alpha

[balmy storm]

She’s also a uniting force amongst the Tenno

The literal adoptive mother to them all

[steady abyss]

to each their own

[zenith jacinth]

who aren't proper leaders and mission handlers

[balmy storm]

Yes balance and all that is too but eh

[steady abyss]

considering how things have been recently, they have shown she isn't needed much

[balmy storm]

I’d assume she can manage multiple tasks at once considering what she is

[balmy storm]

She’s pretty needed wdym

[steady abyss]

not from an in-universe pov

[zenith jacinth]

recently and we do still need her

[balmy storm]

She hasn’t been doing nothing what

[zenith jacinth]

the story would've ended after witw if she was dead

[steady abyss]

For pretty much all of the 1999-content, she isn't relevant from a GAMEPLAY / MISSION side

[tropic venture]

She's helping us remember Perita

[balmy storm]

Lotus Eaters established she’s been fending off Wally, that’s pretty important lmao

[steady abyss]

again, not LORE

[zenith jacinth]

you said in-universe

[steady abyss]

because at the time, that was seemingly the only way

[zenith jacinth]

switching argument back and forth

[tropic venture]

well yeah, she's handling Old Peace stuff while that's going on

[balmy storm]

1999
The place in the past that’s a different situation where she isn’t needed cause she’s helping in the present?

[steady abyss]

but then in recent years, things switched up luckily

[tropic venture]

Old Peace happens "during" Drifter's 1999 trips

[balmy storm]

Apparently it’s months between Lotus Eaters and now, according to Roache

She still manages the tenno but she’s also been fending off Wally, and now she’s assisting the Operator

Lotus is still very vital and I’m not sure what the argument here is, she’s not utilized in 1999 for both out of universe and in universe reasons

[steady abyss]

Pre New War, she was overused and the whole "mother" part was getting a bit much while removing a lot of player agency.

They had other options that were barely utilized and it seemed like the only way for things to finally move forward was with her death.

[balmy storm]

In lore she manages the tenno, is our collective adoptive mother, just went through an experience that split her mind into thirds and has been fending off the Indifference
In gameplay she’s functionally just who tells us what to do, which we will always need as players (yes anyone can do it but that then follows the in lore reason)

[steady abyss]

They luckily still managed to move things forward without being glued to her even if they kept her alive.

[balmy storm]

How was she being overused, her story was being told???

[steady abyss]

Pretty much entire thing was "do what Lotus says because reasons" before

[balmy storm]

I get if you just don’t like her but I’m not entirely sure what your argument even is

Just cause we didn’t get the option to kill her doesn’t remove player agency

She was never the villain, not to the Tenno

[obtuse gyro]

Also like, why would the Tenno be able to strike it out of their own throughout that segment of the story?

like whats all the agency you need for at that point?

[steady abyss]

By that point, countless other characters have been introduced and directly contacted/assisted by the tenno.

[obtuse gyro]

which doesnt really answer the question

[feral barn]

Are we talking about whether or not margulis did in fact betray us in the old war in some way?

[balmy storm]

And are any of those capable of managing multiple tenno on a system wide scale?
Or do any of them have the same unifying force?

[obtuse gyro]

I don't think so

[obtuse gyro]

infrastructure game go brrrrr

[steady abyss]

There would have been something else written in as is the nature of a story.

[obtuse gyro]

the other "handlers" are all localised to their specific regions

[balmy storm]

So in other words you can’t think of it so the writers should have instead

[feral barn]

The Tenno all use the power of the void, but our character is the only one who as a Drifter lore wise.

So though the source of power is the same, everyone is sorta independent to it

[balmy storm]

All tenno act under and through the Lotus

The tenno collectively aren’t unified purely because they share the same abilities

[feral barn]

As far as we know, yes, currently that is the case

[teal steppe]

Uhhhh, I didn't timeline reset, hello!?

Oops... wrong button, was wanting to spoiler the image, not the text.

[steady abyss]

The various AIs that already communicate. The various syndicates that can easily contact the Tenno.

[balmy storm]

Tbh a better answer for a unifying force would be the fact the tenno had/has an entire culture of their own, they’re functionally their own people
A people that, again, is lead by the unifying force of the Lotus who, again, is our adoptive mother who all Tenno care about and for.

[feral barn]

We do not know of other Tenno that have gone off against the Lotus or decided to be fully independent (though it'd be very interesting to see)

[balmy storm]

I’m assuming you mean cephalons, not AI
And you’d have to get all of the syndicates on board with directing the tenno over their own goals

[steady abyss]

Yeah, just a bit tired, so shorthand, lol

[balmy storm]

It would be
But we don’t see that and Lotus still functions as the unifying force that is also capable of managing the tenno

[loud dock]

we do know that there's individuals that are considered apart of the tenno faction without being directly from the zariman too - the agents lotus employs that are defense targets

[balmy storm]

She is the best handler we could have

Ordis does do his best when she’s gone but again, Lotus carries that emotional weight

[steady abyss]

There was a time where she was fully "MIA", so already was showing she wasn't required

[cerulean kiln]

She was

[tropic venture]

(should be noted that those are partially remnants of Oldframe lore where "The Lotus" was the name of an organization, not an individual)

[cerulean kiln]

Ordis literally had to create a stand in Lotus

[feral barn]

Indeed, it's also important to note that the Tenno are regarded as their own people, even in the old war, they weren't the only ones using Warframes, but they were the only ones capable of drawing out it's complete strength

[balmy storm]

Flashbacks to the Lotus in dark sector lol

[steady abyss]

Which was pretty silly and purely for "game-y" reasons

[balmy storm]

Ordis could have done it himself but made the stand in for her

[cerulean kiln]

It wasn’t silly it was because we still need the Lotus emotionally

[steady abyss]

easier to slap a filter over the existing voiceclips

[balmy storm]

Like idk how many times I gotta say why she was important to the tenno, why she worked as the near perfect handler for us

[feral barn]

Also, the event just before Old Peace drop let us know of a Tenno that DID infact rebel against the Orokin I believe

[balmy storm]

Rebelling against the Orokin and the Lotus aren’t the same thing

We have no known tenno that rebelled against her

Nor any reason any of them should

[solid otter]

Yeah I may not trust her but I won't be rebelling against her

[cerulean kiln]

Rebelling against the Orokin wasn’t even Lotus’ plan it was Ballas’

[balmy storm]

While she is not Margulis, the women who did save us, she does carry her traits, her memories, her personality and the same level of care
The Lotus, to the tenno, is important and vital

[feral barn]

True, but it's important to note that the Lotus didn't particularly aid this Tenno as far as we know, she remained on the Orokin side for that time even though other Tenno where likely sent to hunt down this Rogue Tenno

[loud dock]

We know of one Tenno that was outcast and disconnected; and that's Rell. But, he was effectively abandoned by Margulis, not Lotus directly.

[undone lodge]

Lotus was only born after Old Peace

[balmy storm]

We don’t even know if she was born yet, Margulis still existed WHAT

[undone lodge]

That was Margulis

[cerulean kiln]

We we never sent to hunt rogue Tenno

[balmy storm]

I wouldn’t even call Rell rogue

[feral barn]

I consider them the same people, just different points in time, different views

[balmy storm]

He didn’t ever act against the tenno lol

[balmy storm]

They are literally not the same person what

[feral barn]

Not we, but we aren't the only Tenno

[solid otter]

But they're fundamentally not

[feral barn]

Indeed

[solid otter]

Like. At all

[balmy storm]

They are literally not the same person at all

[feral barn]

It's like seeing a distorted mirror

[cerulean kiln]

There aren’t any rouge Tenno children

[solid otter]

How can you consider them the same person when they are not

Margulis likely never knew of Natah

[balmy storm]

At most the Lotus can be a copy of her, a mimicry of Margulis
She can appear as her, has her memories, personality, everything but she is fundamentally not her.

[pseudo sable]

ok so

[solid otter]

Which is why that choice for her to be Margulis makes little to no sense imo

[loud dock]

The whole point of New War was to properly highlight how Margulis influenced Lotus but, they are NOT the same person.

[balmy storm]

Margulis as an identity only exists within her due to Ballas

[feral barn]

Like I said, it's like a distorted mirror, the 3 of them are the same person in a way, but fundamentally different and 2 of them hold the same believe to protect the Tenno

[pseudo sable]

margulis sent out adis and tenno to self destruct the world seeder thing, and that caused what to happen??

im at that part rn and i have no idea what happened

[abstract sorrel]

Do we know how long the old war was?

[balmy storm]

What a misunderstanding of the choice lol

[abstract sorrel]

3 years?

[zenith jacinth]

ballas tampered with it and caused it to kill all xenoflora instead

[cerulean kiln]

Ballas was behind that

[pseudo sable]

right, and adis misunderstood and thought margulis was?

[cerulean kiln]

Margulis avoids answering if she knew

[loud dock]

(Also as a system I view it kinda like Lotus has a Margulis intoject basically.)

[balmy storm]

She’s not choosing which personality she is, she’s choosing which of the three segments within her mind shall lead
The other two still exist.

[solid otter]

Which is why choosing Margulis is choosing to perpetuate the abuse the lotus experienced

[abstract sorrel]

[solid otter]

... not what I meant.

[undone lodge]

It actually re-activated instead so it began terraforming, ruining the atmosphere for the native Xenoflora

[balmy storm]

What did you mean, cause that’s not whats happening?

[solid otter]

Let me specify, i mean for US as the player, while i know its the lotus choosing. We literally do not know this person, we know the lotus, but we have never had any real interaction with Margulis. While for a avid lore enjoyer might know of her more, the average player won't.

Thats why it doesnt make sense for me

[balmy storm]

I mean yes that is a good reason as to why it doesn’t make sense

[solid otter]

Like why would we choose that person

[loud dock]

(actually a lot of warframe can be tied to dissociative disorders being made manifest but that is a ramble of mine for a different day)

[balmy storm]

My stance on which is “correct” will always be the Lotus, out of the three personalities that reside within her the Lotus is the only one she had a hand in creating

[solid otter]

I agree

Natah is who she was born as, Margulis is who she was forced to be, lotus is who she chooses to be. Shrimple

[balmy storm]

Margulis was forced upon her but still exists and so she can utilize that compassion
Natah is who she was and no longer is, but that personality also exists within her and she can utilize her traits as well

[feral barn]

Can I also point out she's not Orokin either? Like every instance of the 3 are never depicted as Orokin, just that they were sided with them

At one point

[solid otter]

What? No of course she's not an orokin

[balmy storm]

Margulis wasn’t even an Orokin lmao

[solid otter]

It seems that you do need to actually be married to ascend to the caste of orokin, rather than just being lovers

[feral barn]

Ok, let me wrap my head about this.

Margullis was the first correct? Or was it Natah by what Erra states?

[balmy storm]

If being lovers was all that was required then there’d be WAY too many Orokin-

[solid otter]

Freaky bastards. (Derogatory)

[balmy storm]

Margulis was first, she saved the tenno
Natah was made to infiltrate the Tenno during the war

[loud dock]

deranged bastards ashdhffjgkl
Ballas loved Margulis but not enough to elevate her status like ever

[feral barn]

But Natah was using the same body as Margulis, since Margulis had been killed by Ballas at that time?

[solid otter]

Dare I say this was a choice done by ballas to subtly control her

[balmy storm]

He legit loved her but was crazy about it and then lost it cause “oh no she’s capable of love for anything other than me!”
Was bro gonna crash out if he met her parents or something like what??

[balmy storm]

No, not the same body
Natah is a mimic, she can take any form.

Margulis’ body was entirely destroyed by the Jade Light

[loud dock]

like sure roathe says he was genuinely in love with her but
his love was more like controlling her as a pet more than as a person

[cerulean kiln]

If you dress up like your favourite character you have knowledge of are you that suddenly that character?

[balmy storm]

It def escalated into that FAST

[solid otter]

As long as there's that power balance, Ballas will always have that upper hand.

Unless you're Albrecht bcs that dude genuinely sees himself as a wet rat

[balmy storm]

The first moment he saw her and felt love was likely the only truly real moment of real love tbh

[loud dock]

and we see this replicated with natah
confused at first that marguils somehow survived but then went "I can use this : )"

[balmy storm]

His self esteem was so low bro saw himself as the very thing he threw himself into lmao

[loud dock]

killing ballas once ain't enough we need to do a time distortion to repeatedly stab him again and again 👏

[solid otter]

I also feel as if Albrecht tried anything (unlikely) Loid would beat his ass

[balmy storm]

Actually the Ballas’ death makes even more sense if we consider that deep within his rotted blue heart he did actually love her

[feral barn]

Ok, so the original Margulis was completely erased and she was initially human.

Natah was created to be Margulis, have her memories but a goal that didn't allign with the original nor wanted to protect the Tenno

Then the Lotus was created from events we know very little on

[balmy storm]

That’s his weakness and always was, he felt actual love for her
But he himself and his actions were awful

[feral barn]

Given this is an IP where people come back to life all the time like it's a Sunday morning? Yes

[solid otter]

I... dont think thats really true outside reoccurring bosses

[balmy storm]

Lotus is Natah with Margulis’ memories/personality essentially but the Lotus would ultimately be independent and what the Lotus is, or rather who is something she’d create over time

[cerulean kiln]

Margulis has never been brought back to life though

[loud dock]

actual resurrection is less common than game mechanic shows

[solid otter]

Its very uncommon

[pseudo sable]

so, the peace treaty was broken because of the planet seeder thing event, who took who's side? like yeah it was orokin vs sentient again, but were the grineer on the orokin side still?

[solid otter]

They have to be. Loyalty gene.

:)

[pseudo sable]

ah right

[feral barn]

I was mostly going by what hunhow said, they can come back but death leaves a mark, Margulis was part of the Orokin Empire and despite not being Orokin, she definitely could have had counter measures to her death

[balmy storm]

Reoccurring bosses that are more so for gameplay

[undone lodge]

One of the 1000 miscellaneous skills he learned to be an Archimedean assistant was the ancient combat art of Fushigi

[balmy storm]

The anarchs were dax that used grineer soldiers

[feral barn]

Right, but we do know there is a turning point from Natah to the Lotus, we just don't know the events of that clearly

[loud dock]

Kuva Liches, Sisters of Parvos, Ghouls and certain infested are the only genuine non-Orokin resurrections iirc.

It's waaaaayyy less common.

[balmy storm]

And the tenno ofc

[feral barn]

Our Tenno only apparently

[balmy storm]

I believe we have some details but the exacts are unknown

[solid otter]

I know what that is !! The fushigi ball.... wonder if that was around in 1999

[balmy storm]

I mean it should just be all

[cerulean kiln]

Isn’t it made up of Dax and Grineer soldiers not Dax that were Grineer?

[undone lodge]

Have you seen the meme

[loud dock]

oh that's just contact juggling so yes there'd probably be a version of it

[balmy storm]

I’m not really a fan of us being able to revive constantly cause of Adis but that’s likely just me lol

[feral barn]

By what we see in the Old Peace, all Tenno are mortal, our Tenno is the one gifted with revive abilities

[pseudo sable]

who is this male voruna ahh doom eternal warframe's name again

[solid otter]

I know of the ball :D

[pseudo sable]

uriel right

[loud dock]

protea casually contact juggles apart of her animkit :>

[undone lodge]

Uriel

[solid otter]

Uriel and its more like doom 2016

[balmy storm]

Yes that’s what I said

[solid otter]

God get your doom games right

[cerulean kiln]

I don’t even think that is the case I think players took that light thing too literally

[balmy storm]

Yes and I have issues with that
Also we’ve known for a good while now tenno are mortal, just very hard to kill

They’re still human lol

[feral barn]

Ish

[pseudo sable]

how is it more doom 2016 im curious

[balmy storm]

No

They are still human

The tenno have always been human

[pseudo sable]

cuz doom 2016 felt more like you are the one fighting bosses

doom eternal felt like proper doom slayer where u are the boss

[hearty pendant]

void saturated dna, void powers, human otherwise

[feral barn]

Human-ish, they don't really age as far as we know, they work differently, their appearance is Human, but they arent fully Human

[loud dock]

The MC Operator/Drifter combo is the most non-human human but the Tenno ARE still human, yes.

[balmy storm]

I mean I hope you’re right cause I don’t like it an explanation for reviving

It neglects the fact other tenno exist

[undone lodge]

Rell:

[cerulean kiln]

We were literally put in pods because aging exists

[hearty pendant]

Rell's body literally aged to dust and he bound himself to harrow to avoid death

[feral barn]

It doesn't?

[solid otter]

Doom 2016 (and I guess doom the dark ages too) has the more stereotypical "demon" aesthetics that aligns with Uriel's design.

[feral barn]

I keep forgetting about Rell-

[loud dock]

Also I think it's just representing the FIRST time something activated our revival mechanic. Not that Adis gave us the ability.

[balmy storm]

Rell aged as far as we know
They still work like people
And they are still human, just humans who carry a piece of whatever Wally is

Our DNA is void saturated, not mutated.

[feral barn]

Wait, wasn't Rell in the void?

[balmy storm]

No

[cerulean kiln]

If we didn’t age we wouldn’t have been put in the pods permanently

[feral barn]

Ok

[balmy storm]

His original body died forever ago lmao

The tenno are also called human like
Multiple times???

[cerulean kiln]

Even the Orokin couldn’t cure aging

[balmy storm]

Which is funny cause in theory we could

[feral barn]

Ok, but ever since the second dream we've only ever saw 1 Tenno out of the pod, far as we know everyone else could still be in pods

Rell was the only one out

[solid otter]

His gameplay doesnt even really align to eternal either, outside the more mobile movement, and i guess the flame belch? + as a warframe with a specific melee, it would make more sense for it to be more like the game with the high melee damage over the one without it (excluding blood punch.)

[balmy storm]

You don’t actually die from “aging” iirc
You just have more issues as you get older

[cerulean kiln]

It’s unsafe to keep the others in pods now because the Moon can be reached by all factions

[feral barn]

Drifter talk

[solid otter]

If I wanna get specific TDA also has almost a 1:1 version of Uriel's sigil thing

[balmy storm]

Hop in game rn
Go to little duck or onkko
You will see other tenno

Also Voruna’s operator def didnt get back in that pod

[feral barn]

Yeah, we need to see other Tenno in the story

[balmy storm]

They had a whole second dream moment lmao

[feral barn]

Gameplay wise is one thing, story wise is another

[loud dock]

Little Duck even mentions that there's more Tenno that help her and the galaxy out.

[solid otter]

The humble prime vanguard:
-# who do you think used to control those warframes

They are mentioned

[balmy storm]

System
Not galaxy
We aren’t on a galactic scale.

[cerulean kiln]

We saw other Tenno in the story did you forget the Zariman scenes?

[undone lodge]

Personally headcanon that they reached the point where they could if they really wanted, they just wanted to keep doing Continuity and going all the way required a level of effort and investment they didn’t want or see the need to bother with

[feral barn]

Mention but we never see them

[solid otter]

Oh yeah, the zariman in the new war

[balmy storm]

Idk how people mix that up this game takes place in one solar system 😭

[loud dock]

(listen its early in the morning I can say one flub)

ik it's one solar system

[feral barn]

I consider that a pre-tenno meet-up xD

[solid otter]

Tau is in another system tbf

[balmy storm]

Ok I’m glad you know, I know some do not

[solid otter]

Okay but they still became tenno?

[feral barn]

The ones that survived yes

[balmy storm]

We aren’t there yet!
And even aside from that we ain’t on a galactic level lol

[cerulean kiln]

You forgot Tau so now that’s 2 /j

[balmy storm]

Star wars rotted some people’s brains istg

[solid otter]

I uh

[pseudo sable]

hoyl shit

i just finished old peace

what a crazy quest

[loud dock]

the crashout is so valid

[balmy storm]

I mean tenno is the people of the Zariman so they were factually tenno, just not tenno after the incident

[solid otter]

Don't like starwars. Im just a doom nerd 💔
-# which knowing idsoftware, probably had some inspiration

[feral barn]

I want to see full actual Tenno in the story that isn't our own, like seeing a Dev Tenno being part of the story for example? I'd love that

[loud dock]

the one time wally was 100% in line with us

[cerulean kiln]

Tenno is a faction and doesn’t only refer to the children

[balmy storm]

Not really

[solid otter]

I mean we killed innocent sentients

[cerulean kiln]

Lotus is Tenno faction

[balmy storm]

He was just egging us on

[cerulean kiln]

Teshin is in the Tenno faction

[balmy storm]

The crashout is absolutely valid but it wouldn’t have happened if he didn’t push us off that cliff

[undone lodge]

Yep. There’s even a list of the “hallmarks” of aging that are the actual parts of it

[pseudo sable]

now i have 2 questions, what was the purpose of the tenno going back and reliving those memories? just to know what happened or was there something else? and second, margulis made the tenno forget about the whole old peace and thats why we went back in the present day right?

[solid otter]

Also chat, did you know that you can scan hunhow in the Octavia's anthem thingy

[loud dock]

oh there's no sentients left in the academy by the time we arrive on uriel
they've already been executed

[balmy storm]

There are tho

[pseudo sable]

you literally fight sentients in the academy lol

[solid otter]

Reliving trauma is a legitimate way to deal with said trauma, so we are doing that therapy along with reclaiming them to fight against wally

[balmy storm]

We mostly kill fragments iirc
Which if you mean during the quest then yeah

[abstract sorrel]

The Orokin empire was tiny on the galactic scale

[fierce kiln]

also to find out where tau is located since we want to follow albrecht & lotus wants to find a sentient with powers like adis, likely for herself and potentially also for erra

[loud dock]

??? HUEH
okay I guess they never probably spawned for me and that's a bug LMAO

[solid otter]

Mhm. Still innocent imo

[solid otter]

I still dont think Albrecht is at Tau rn

[balmy storm]

Yeah the ones in the academy during the quest
Outside of that, no fragments aren’t innocent

[pseudo sable]

got it ok

[cerulean kiln]

Fighting ghosts I see

[balmy storm]

Mostly cause said fragments aren’t individuals

[balmy storm]

Why he pushin us there then

But also
How would he even get there lmao

[solid otter]

I think Albrecht is waiting for us to open the way to Tau, instead of him doing it himself

Inline with Albrecht but it does cut things a little close

[fierce kiln]

"can the orokin ever be forgiven" narrative to somehow weaken the indifference with love

[balmy storm]

I can see that!
Imagine if after all the setup to rebuild the rail or whatever we do and it’s finally time and bro just shows up “right on time, let’s go”

[solid otter]

I also wanna bet that we'll see Albrecht next update

[cerulean kiln]

Why does Lotus let us fight her that doesn’t sound like something a caring space mother would do?

[solid otter]

See or hear him

[balmy storm]

Next major update or next winter update

Cause I don’t think we will see him in Echoes of the Old Peace or whatever they call it

[feral barn]

By the way, in the perita rebellion when a warframe is set lose a specific dialog can show up saying they could set something wilder/worse on the field against you....what would that be?

[cerulean kiln]

I hope we kill Albrecht soon because his VA is literally 80

[balmy storm]

Possibly a myrmidon but the sentients can handle those so idk

[balmy storm]

I hope he just dies in general after kissing his boyfriend
Idc who does it lol

[feral barn]

Perhaps an Archon?

[loud dock]

probably more warped dactolysts

[solid otter]

Mm, he's obviously gonna be in the next major update (it's already wild he is barely mentioned in this update) but i do want to believe he's gonna be at least seen in the echoes update. Maybe as a school thing? Like I do mean like. We see him as that zariman portrait (im desperate.)

[balmy storm]

I assume you’re talking about the anarchs and I kinda doubt they’d have access to an Archon-

[loud dock]

given a single dactolyst almost actually killed us

[balmy storm]

It seems fairly new that they figured out the whole resetting a fragment thing

[feral barn]

They shouldn't have access to warframes either, yet they did and it was hinted they were being helped by orokin that wanted war

[loud dock]

oh yeah nitokh was funding that shit like hell LMAO

[balmy storm]

Wdym as a school thing? Like he shows up as a voice like how Euleria did?

[cerulean kiln]

Ballas was the real winner of Old Peace

[solid otter]

Maybe Albrecht follows up on his teacher role from Duviri to us and like. In a code thingy we have to figure out what he has on Tau

[loud dock]

"I'm bored. Let's go kill all the other Orokin. :>"

[balmy storm]

Yes they were being assisted by Nitokh
I’m still not sure they could access an Archon

[pseudo sable]

oh yea i noticed something and this might be completely coincidental but

mirage look suspiciously like a female prime grineer

[solid otter]

Yea! It would align with the whole duviri arc he had, but that depends on like. A lot of space between the notes

[feral barn]

They might have a few lying around

[balmy storm]

finhgr

[balmy storm]

I’d imagine we would see that tbh
Which hey maybe we will in a month and a half or whenever the update is lol

[loud dock]

warframes are made from people so it's not unlikely that'd be a reason lmao

[pseudo sable]

yea but were grineer just 'people'?

[feral barn]

Yeah, different archons that are their prime strongest variants would be interesting

[pseudo sable]

i mean ig they were but would they make a grineer into a warframe

[solid otter]

If Roathe's theory that the fingers act as conduits that allow wally to access the world, i aint sure the fingers will be on tau
-# THEY'RE IN THE RIFT DIMENSION LIMBO BECOMES IMPORTANT AGAIN

[feral barn]

ALSO LET US KILL WHO HURT THE DOG

[balmy storm]

I kinda doubt he’d take on that role, him during the old war was being and seen as insane
But if its him now? Maybe we could see something??

Maybe a pom-2 recording

[loud dock]

yes
roathe tells us most of his soldiers got converted into uriels

[pseudo sable]

ah

interesting, so yea mirage might just have been some psyched out grineer lady

[balmy storm]

I think there absolutely could be, if he just needed the fingers for access he’d have the original by now
But he doesn’t
He can see, speak, even manipulate things to a degree seemingly through them but he can’t just go to them

[feral barn]

Or a very playful one

[fierce kiln]

if amar didnt die due to anarchs, then erra himself merged his head with a dead rhino prime..

[pseudo sable]

Or both

[balmy storm]

Tbh he could have died in a fight with a rhino prime during the second half of the old war

[solid otter]

Goes back in time acting as a regular Archimedian totally not Albrecht Entrati and rather is "Albert Ellison" or some shit

[feral barn]

I'd say unlikely, but something did happen to the boy

[balmy storm]

Lmao that’d be funny

[solid otter]

With a painfully obvious fake moustache

[balmy storm]

I think they’d catch him cause of the genetic lockes or something

Also we don’t have a precedent for time traveling to a time where you already existed

Or
Maybe we do actually???

[solid otter]

I mean if hes in duviri...

[loud dock]

myup, prob
some of them seem to be designed with intent by molding the helminth strain into a particular frame (umbra being intentionally made into an excal - roathe's soldiers getting specifically turned into uriel)

others adopt traits of the people who they were (dagath)

[balmy storm]

The Lua spy vaults potentially took place during when the tenno were around

[balmy storm]

OH sorry lmao

[solid otter]

He wouldnt exist in that timeline, if that Albrecht would be in duviri, so current white man Albrecht could be there without the whole issue of "hey what happens if there's 2 of the same people in the same timeline" like we see w drifter n operator

[balmy storm]

Their anims are remnants of their personalities so I think their traits do appear regardless but to varying degrees, their personality being the most common one

[loud dock]

i like how we talk about that specifically with marie and lyon too its neat

[balmy storm]

I mean if he’s in the void it’s just a none issue

[loud dock]

(lyon feeling the pain of rell and every harrow in existance though, OGH)

[balmy storm]

I’d also say what’s happening with Operator and Drifter is different, that’s not time travel, that’s parallel selves

[loud dock]

that does; actually confirm the old mention of how some things just "stain" the helmnith across space/time though that they mentioned with valkyr

[solid otter]

Like i could see it but this is Thomas crafting crack theories so dont take it as me being serious

[balmy storm]

If Albrecht time travelled back to a time when he already existed it would be fine or, like you said, it was when he was in Duviri

[cerulean kiln]

We feel the pain of every Warframe we use

[balmy storm]

I’m curious as to what happens if someone time travels to a time when they existed

Does the universe solve it like Operator and Drifter?

Maybe!

[solid otter]

I want to see it but I also think thats a BAD idea

[balmy storm]

Oh it’s almost always a bad idea LOL

[solid otter]

Albrecht can mess with the timelines only so much

[balmy storm]

Main issue being you can’t alter your own past or you never even go to the past anyway so you can alter it
Grandfather paradox

[loud dock]

i think they're pushing for him having hella screwed up with his time travel yeah
like he's running and running but the mess keeps getting bigger and bigger

[balmy storm]

I do doubt the spacetime issues that occur with Operator and Drifter would occur since the you you were 10 years ago is factually a different person

[cerulean kiln]

It’s crazy how many people think theres paradoxes in 1999

[solid otter]

Which probably means Albrecht's shenanigans were supposed to happen in the grand scheme of things

[balmy storm]

The Lua spy vaults should be but cause of the palimpsest of spacetime they aren’t

Those SHOULD be grandfather paradoxes!

[loud dock]

oh yeah 1999 isnt a paradox its just a bubble thats been added to the drifter's continuity to stablize it

[solid otter]

If Albrecht didn't do the shit he did, We wouldn't have Temple, but we have Temple anyways

[balmy storm]

More like a bubble that’s 1999
The timeline keeps moving past it and any changes we make carry through

[cerulean kiln]

1999 is just time travel to the past

[balmy storm]

Like the Coda!

[loud dock]

and albrecht needs the tenno to fight the indifference so of course temple had to exist to spearfront the "stage" on the night of the naga drums

[balmy storm]

What?
No we wouldn’t? Not unless we raided Ballas’ junk drawer

[solid otter]

That's... what im sayin

Im saying Albrecht's shenanigans must've happened because we must have Temple 😭

[balmy storm]

Apologies, I thought you were saying we’d have Temple regardless

[loud dock]

dude's just coming in and swinging a metal bat at the space time continumn and then being surprised when the void is like "ooh."

[balmy storm]

We get Temple from Flare so if Flare never gets it then Temple never happens

[loud dock]

consqeuences of your own actions, albrecht.

[balmy storm]

Unless we raid Ballas’ junk drawer and find the design lmao

But that’s way less cool and the design would potentially be different to the Temple we know

[solid otter]

Albrecht is far too aware of his actions and i think its an issue he might have

[balmy storm]

Bro’s so guilty his vacation was him repenting

[loud dock]

iirc the implication is that legit- temple would not exist if not for flare
given the talk is "the warframe ballas would have never made"

since they become the OG temple once the helmnith fully overtakes their body

[balmy storm]

Yes, Temple would not exist since Ballas never made the design
But Albrecht gives the serum to Flare who has the details on them cause they are them and will fully become them, only making it to the origin system via comet if we help

I do wonder if the original Temple design even had the guitar tbh

[solid otter]

No hes not repenting hes taking advantage of Lyon's and Marie's kindness grrr hes manipulating marie cus he knows that Marie has daddy issues/s

-# ignore the fact he did that before he knew Marie at all

[balmy storm]

We know some have altered their designs so like
👀

[balmy storm]

I love that he treated her as a person, no pity, no disdain
Her disability was never her to him, she was her

[solid otter]

"No he treated marie like a normal human being so he must be being manipulative" no dawg I just think he wasn't an ablelist piece of shit

[undone lodge]

One of the Movember Mustaches

[loud dock]

i do love how our drifter is like "---he was on sabbatical?!" LMAO

[balmy storm]

How he acted with Marie shows what compassion he was capable of, compassion for others which most if not all Orokin struggled with

[loud dock]

like we're so used to talking about him like some monster but its like
nah dude is still human
messed up
but still human
since the orokin are just a cultural caste of humans

[balmy storm]

“HE WAS ON VACATION???”

[solid otter]

The fact she is proof Albrecht isn't just a horrid evil man who feels no remose really helps me try to explain that he isn't a horrid evil man who feels no remorse. It makes me happy

[balmy storm]

Least terrible Orokin who’s still terrible but in a different and less terrible way than the rest of the terrible terrible Orokin
this sentence is terrible

[loud dock]

like ngl i dont blame marie for seeing him as a father figure
because he genuinely treated her well in a period that if she was not apart of a religious movement she would've been probably been incarcerated just because of her "unslightly disability"
💀

(yes that was a thing. i hate humanity)

[balmy storm]

I think it is something to note that even Ballas was capable of legit love, the Orokin are capable of these wonderful things but more than the vast majority were just awful

[solid otter]

I still will hate marie for saying that she was "the only daughter who had forgiven Albrecht" without even knowing mother

[balmy storm]

Do you know her backstory?

[cerulean kiln]

I can redeem all Orokin just give me Redeemer Prime and a couple of hours

[balmy storm]

I mean she
Didn’t know her
Why does that warrant hate??

Also idk if Mother has forgiven him?

Also Yonta exists

Albrecht has 3 women who look up to him

[solid otter]

Its presumptive. She's saying that mother didn't, even if she's never met her. She's assuming Mother's feelings

Which is kinda shitty, at least imo

[balmy storm]

I still don’t think that warrants hate

Assuming things is kinda just being human sometimes

[solid otter]

Idc how right it was, it was wrong for her to assume something

[balmy storm]

Is it wrong? Yeah duh lol

[solid otter]

Its. I wouldnt say arrogant but its similar

[balmy storm]

Oh no, she’s flawed!
Hate her for that!

I’m not seeing the logic I’m sorry lol

[solid otter]

Yes and im allowed to feel so????

[cerulean kiln]

I remember people used to say Albrecht did nothing wrong

[balmy storm]

Yes you may feel whatever you want, I simply do not see how that warrants such a strong emotion such as hate.

[solid otter]

I just hate it

I hate anyone who does it

[balmy storm]

He had the elon musk arc to some lol

[balmy storm]

So you hate anyone who assumes anything about anyone and you yourself have never done that?

[solid otter]

Yeah actually.

I kinda do. I hate people who assume and I try my best not to

[balmy storm]

Again, it is fine to not like her, my issue is with the language
If it’s hate that’s very strong for what is a normal human flaw

It is to varying degrees like anything ofc

[solid otter]

You just assumed i was a hypocrite, without knowing if i was. Thats something I hate.

I feel strong emotions oh no

[balmy storm]

I’m assuming, yes assuming, you dislike it strongly

Anyway
I will assume Marie either does or will do better if she ever meets and converses or even gets more info about Mother

[loud dock]

(also oh i do im referencing the fact that many places throughout the west had "ugly laws" that if she wasn't apart of the Sisters of Sol she likely would've been face to face with that in her later years if she didnt get the chance to join 💔 - targeted laws specifically against "unsightly" beggars - aka disabled folk that had no other options.)

so - she has that view that she does owe a lot to entrati's kindness because he ~wasn't an ableistic jerk~

[balmy storm]

It is refreshing he isn’t an ableist jerk tbh

[loud dock]

REAL

[solid otter]

Lotta folk assumed the worst

[balmy storm]

I would like to think the Orokin did move past some things like that

[solid otter]

I didnt see why he would be

[loud dock]

im so tired of that being a crutch for complicated, potentially antagonistic characters
they can do wrong without being a bigot

[balmy storm]

They def moved past the societal belief of gender and gender norms

[solid otter]

I mean they transcended gender as a whole

[balmy storm]

LOL we intercepted the same thought

[loud dock]

when you get into full body-modding you basically kinda give up on binary LMAO

[solid otter]

Though mental disabilities might still be worked on. Physical ones, at least as an orokin doesnt mean particularly much when you can change bodies

[loud dock]

roathe gave himself a damn tail
im not getting over that
its not warframe-ified
he had the tail

[balmy storm]

Exactly
As terrible as the Orokin were I don’t think they were bigots, not entirely at least
They def. Were bigots but not in the race, gender, disability sense

[balmy storm]

Wait what

Does he reveal its not from Uriel??

[loud dock]

the tail is his skin tone and has an orokin blade adorning it
that's a bodymod baybe

[solid otter]

Oh yeah it has his skin and his armour is built for the tail

[balmy storm]

Eh I’ll put that in the maybe pile

Helminth do just be doing what it do to him too so I’m not convinced

[loud dock]

he LEANED into that "devil of tau" thing
uriel got inspired by him

[balmy storm]

I do however need a chat that’s about his tail now

[loud dock]

so im 100% on the boat that its a body mod

[solid otter]

In fact, it seems that Uriel's body is directly inspired by Roathe's armour

[loud dock]

^

[balmy storm]

Does this make Roathe a furry?

[solid otter]

Yes absolutely

[loud dock]

it makes him an otherkin and a maybe furry

[solid otter]

The word otherkin holy hell

[balmy storm]

He isn’t the original, so idk bout that

[solid otter]

I haven't heard it in years 😭

[balmy storm]

Unless you mean Uriel was literally inspired cause of Roathe

[loud dock]

AM I WRONG
HIM LEANING INTO THE DEVIL MOTIF TO THE POINT HE MODS IT?

[balmy storm]

Like Ballas looked at Roathe when making him lol

[loud dock]

yes

[balmy storm]

Oh that’s absolutely possible

[solid otter]

I mean this lol

I mean exactly that

[loud dock]

like actually
he even mentions this
uriel was a ""gift"" for the ""devil of tau""

roathe's soldiers got turned into a legion, inspired by him

[solid otter]

Ballas really liked gifting Warframes to people

[balmy storm]

I can absolutely see him modding in the tail but I can also just see helminth doing its thing

Regardless I think he loves the tail and I hope its the modded one

[balmy storm]

Out of spite too lmao

[loud dock]

usually if its from the frame it has the frame-effect
he doesn't have any of uriel's carapace on his tail

[solid otter]

Ballas is just a hater and that is funny.

[cerulean kiln]

Ballas likes his project

[loud dock]

(yes i spent too long looking at him in captura)

[balmy storm]

I do hope that Garuda was made for or due to Nitokh tbh

[cerulean kiln]

Gara apparently offered herself to get framed

[solid otter]

Gara, Qorvex, Xaku prime and the warframes inside (presumably), Uriel

[balmy storm]

I wonder if any of the Seven were orokin purple
Or orokin green
Cause those are, apparently, options!

[loud dock]

protea was also a comission, can't forget that

[solid otter]

Oh yeah, and Protea

[balmy storm]

What

What is this list?

[loud dock]

frames that were confirmed to be created specifically for someone/something

[solid otter]

Warframes assigned to people or made for people by ballas

[balmy storm]

Qorvex was designed by Albrecht, we don’t know if Ballas was involved
Xaku Prime is a case where we have zero idea at all

[balmy storm]

Yeah idk if Qorvex fits there nor Xaku Prime

[solid otter]

Xaku prime is presumably bcs im a little unsure if Xaku prime was primed by ballas or Albrecht bcs I dont think it was Albrecht

[loud dock]

OH WAIT AND SARYN
she was designed inspired by margulis

[solid otter]

I feel like he'd be mentioned if he was involved with the priming of Xaku

[balmy storm]

I can see them being Albrecht, mostly cause the Obols and ofc, their ability names

[cerulean kiln]

You missed Hildryn

[fierce kiln]

someone in the entratie family presumably did it given their prime design

[balmy storm]

Xaku’s ability names were likely coined by an Entrati

[solid otter]

I mean, the paracesis sheath also has obols and I have a weird suspicion that Albrecht specifically didnt make that for him

[balmy storm]

Didn’t have to be Albrecht

Vilcor’s the weapon guy lol

[loud dock]

honestly garuda being made for nikoth just makes sense
girle casually bathed in blood, literally
blood and flower petals
💀

[balmy storm]

We are just left to theories for Xaku Prime either way with no true answer

[cerulean kiln]

Obols seem to be a Vilcor thing the family adopted

[solid otter]

Obols are the whole family's thing, not just Albrecht, which is why im reluctant to say its Albrecht who primed Xaku. Could just be entrati member asking for the continued vibe theme

[balmy storm]

Albrecht adopted it HEAVILY then lmao

[fierce kiln]

watch steve say "yeah i actually had the lore for her written down all this time"

[balmy storm]

I’d argue the Entratis are a much better candidate due to what Xaku is and their origin tbh

[solid otter]

I mean that is something Albrecht would do
Ie: proto serums, the cars he presumably stole, the atomicycles i doubt he bought legally

[balmy storm]

But to each their own, all we got is theories lol

I do wonder if all of the Seven have a frame associated with them

[solid otter]

The concept of Albrecht breaking into dealerships to get atomicycles

[cerulean kiln]

Paracecis could’ve been made by the Entrati family considering it has special Voidish properties

[loud dock]

"ima go to 1999 and commit grand theft and tax fraud - im not even a legally registered doctor in hollvenia"

[balmy storm]

We have to subtract Nihil from being evidence for that though ):

[fierce kiln]

grendel mightve been just to take a stab at kareesh lol

[balmy storm]

He made a clothing brand
So I wonder if he had to pay taxes lol

[solid otter]

Still so annoyed by that damn name

[balmy storm]

I wonder if Gauss was a nod to Tormis then

[cerulean kiln]

“You wanted a monster I created a monster a less fat version of you”

[solid otter]

"Timeless style" Albrecht im gonna cut your gall bladder out and feed it to you if you make another joke istg.

[balmy storm]

“He will one day eat you :)”

[loud dock]

whats wild to me is that he established loid as a saint

man still misses his lover

[solid otter]

Yeah this is inline with Albrecht

[balmy storm]

Like bro we are at war with whatever the heck Wally is, now is not the time 😭

[cerulean kiln]

Loid is a saint

[balmy storm]

He is very nice yeah

Grumpy
But nice :)

[solid otter]

Albrecht sees Loid as above him. Orokin sees regular person as above him. Wild shit

[loud dock]

i love how protective loid is of the operator ;^;
he's really warmed up and i just
AUGH

[solid otter]

He likes caring for kids. Its an established thing with Loid

[balmy storm]

We should be able to hug him but ONLY as the Operator

[loud dock]

listen teshin's basically gone
loid is new dad™

[solid otter]

He presumably helped to raise Euleria, he absolutely helped to raise the grandchildren [he used to carry son around on his shoulders :)]

[balmy storm]

Teshin is Drifter’s dad now

I don’t have it but there was art of them in the moment where he dies with, I think dialog from the Odyssey or something and it was so good 😭

[solid otter]

Drifter is just a random dude to Loid, but operator is a kid and loid does not stand for kids being unsupported. I guess???

Loid would explode at the sight of my childhood

[loud dock]

its incredibly in line with his character given he stubbornly protects the cavia 😭

[fierce kiln]

i just remembered a thing i wanted to point out
that scene in the old peace, where loid somehow manages to step into the memory; how does adis speak, is it just part of the refractory or perhaps, "his light" carried by the operator
far fetched i know BUT LET ME BELIEVE
https://youtu.be/Rr3LnnTETso?t=3802

[cerulean kiln]

Tbh
My Operator never even met Loid till Lotus Eaters

Drifter saw Loid first

[loud dock]

im still never getting over how its like
no, albrecht didnt really care to preserve them - that was loiiiDDDD...
man's got a soft spot for kids and animals 💔 💔 💔

[solid otter]

Him crying in r5 cavia rankup makes me want to bite someone

[balmy storm]

Still wonder what’s up with Kalymos…

Did I mention yet how I want frames for the other Seven

[loud dock]

i swear she can talk but choses not to
something about her just feels like
she totally can probably talk

[night zephyr]

She is ours now

[solid otter]

Well. Its kinda hard to think of that when you physically/psychologically cant look at them

[balmy storm]

https://tenor.com/view/kalymos-warframe-heart-cat-gif-14437175578720025539

[cerulean kiln]

Albrecht leaving his favourite pet like that definitely wasn’t for nothing

[solid otter]

I think it was to keep her safe

[balmy storm]

If she says anything I will explode

[solid otter]

Better her be there then with him in possible danger

I feel as though she misses him and Loid though

[balmy storm]

1999 is technically the safest place rn ig??

[loud dock]

yeah

[balmy storm]

Duviri clearly is not as safe as it used to be

[loud dock]

like it no longer is going to nuclearly explode so

[balmy storm]

And the mall is never attacked

Plus she can eat all the infestation she wants!

[loud dock]

and she's also a kavat which
literally feasts on infestation-yeah

[cerulean kiln]

Wanna bet?

[solid otter]

So 1999 is safe. Where he is going, she might not be.

[balmy storm]

Unless we forgor
But Amir probably has a method now against it lol

[balmy storm]

I love when others remember this!

[cerulean kiln]

It still blows up each year but then loops

[balmy storm]

Wait how do Kubrows stave off infestation…

Oh wait
They don’t
Helminth puppy!

[solid otter]

My arm has fallen asleep help

[loud dock]

they dont
-yep
helmnith puppyyyyy

[balmy storm]

Gotta cut it off
We’ll give you a longer one

[loud dock]

kavats were made to be infestation-resilliant, kubrow unfortunately are not

[balmy storm]

Maybe make ya blue and really tall
How bout some glowy eyes?

Inflate your ego bout 200x too…

[solid otter]

Yayyy i can finally open the top pantry cupboard...

[balmy storm]

[balmy storm]

The real reason the trend started

[solid otter]

200 x 0 is still 0

[balmy storm]

We’ll add 20 and then times it by 200….

[solid otter]

NOOOO

[solid otter]

So short mfs can reach shit

I should get a fridge

[balmy storm]

I do actually wonder how the trend started

[cerulean kiln]

How did Albrecht not get Infested in 1999?

[balmy storm]

That and the blue thing

[solid otter]

Vaccine maybe?

That was separate to the proto injection

[balmy storm]

Leave it to mr mcguffin to come up with the actual cure

[loud dock]

........
you know i feel like that like
even confirms that the tail's a body mod for roathe LMFAO
instead of the arm he went "what if i give myself a prehensile tail tho"

[balmy storm]

This implies he has infested particles in him!

[cerulean kiln]

And only give it to himself

[solid otter]

He probably does. The whole family js now!

[balmy storm]

Trueee

[solid otter]

More proof that hes planning to die...

[balmy storm]

Gotta make a new batch to speed things up a bit for the others

[fierce kiln]

there was some plotpoint that the vaccine he gave to regular people was only slowing the infestation, not healing or preventing full takeover

[balmy storm]

He better kiss his husband before his rotting blue heart stops

Dw its less rotted than all the other orokin

[cerulean kiln]

Actually Albrecht did come up with the actual cure he created Wally which led to Infestation immune children

[solid otter]

It was causing folk to not transform. But to become silent carriers

Which i dont think he actually knew of

[balmy storm]

True! Just saturate your DNA in the void and you’re safe!
Ignore the voices
What voices
There are no voices
||kiddo||

[solid otter]

There's been voices recently yes

[balmy storm]

He def did

Does Wally kiddo us in the quest?

If not he should have smh

[cerulean kiln]

No drug comes without slight side effects

[solid otter]

I mean maybe after it happens but i don't know how hed know before using it

[balmy storm]

Depends on how he made it, he likely did run experiments prior

[fierce kiln]

https://tenor.com/view/warframe-warframe-1999-arthur-warframe-not-again-warframe-hand-gif-17699890539505841250

[balmy storm]

But he do be a desperate scientist too so

[solid otter]

Wonder if he kidnapped random rats 😭

[balmy storm]

Me when the blue guy takes control of my arm

[balmy storm]

Oh so that’s why Lettie hates him!

[solid otter]

Still funny to me Albrecht types like that

[balmy storm]

Omg you’re right
We know how he types cause of that-

[solid otter]

Don't b l8

This man.

[balmy storm]

And with Loid on the pom-2
We’re so close to Albrecht convos! Totally!!

[solid otter]

Or whatever it was

[balmy storm]

[solid otter]

It was shorthand and sounded like skateboy talk and it infuriated me.

[loud dock]

given that he was also texting
im not shocked he does shorthand

[solid otter]

I LIVE WITH THEM ENOUGH LEAVE ME ALONE ALBRECHT

[balmy storm]

Bro talkin like Quincy

[loud dock]

quincy my beloved

[fierce kiln]

albrecht got street smart while in 99

[cerulean kiln]

Albrecht can’t use the L8 argument because he was only ever on time because of his Butler with benefits

[balmy storm]

Quincy is great

[balmy storm]

Butler with benefits
You cooked

You won 2026 and it just started

[solid otter]

The entrati family fell apart bcs the twink couldn't help dress everyone

[loud dock]

i wISH we could be polyam with the hex okay
y'all making me chose between eleanor and quincy is evil, DE 😭

[balmy storm]

He wasn’t there to stop son from not being stupid

[solid otter]

Wasn't there to remind mother to calm down 💔

[loud dock]

give me both my gremlins
that is all

[balmy storm]

I get why to an extent, but they should just have specific preventions

[solid otter]

Wasn't there to tell Daughter not to be dumb

[cerulean kiln]

I just wanna know what Loid uses to Bullet Jump

[balmy storm]

Like Eleanor can’t be with Arthur
Arthur can’t be with Aoi
Lettie just doesn’t go for that at all maybe??
Stuff like that

The consent system was def rushed and I am hopeful DE will address it

[solid otter]

Augmented by the void or some shit.

Alternatively he has the doublejump boots from doom 2016

[balmy storm]

“It’s not cheating cause time travel” also tainted it a bit :/

[solid otter]

Eugh

[balmy storm]

Wait he can WHAT

[solid otter]

AND YOU STILL CHEAT.

[balmy storm]

YOU LITERALLY HAVE TO CHEAT FIRST 😭

[solid otter]

Doublejump. And like. Roll??

[loud dock]

arthur and aoi could still be like, with the drifter specifically
polyam relationships don't have to be closed mutual dating triads
they could stay friends between the two of them

[solid otter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/77176186148499456/1435489161602928650/Tumblr_l_1222864187355579.gif

Like why is he like this

[balmy storm]

DAMN HE SHMOVES

WHYS HE LOOK MORE ACTIVE THAN WE DO WHAT

[cerulean kiln]

Is his head fine after he headbut Wally?

[solid otter]

He can do that while the operator cant

[fierce kiln]

i mean, all/ most friendly allies like hostages and railjack crewmembers can do bullet jumps and shit

[solid otter]

He's fine dw he has a metal skull

[solid otter]

I mean yeah thats probably why but its so funny to see loid do it

[balmy storm]

I don’t think they should be dating eachother in any capacity and I think they’d agree

[loud dock]

HE SHMOVES AND HE IS FACING DOWN MURMUR WITH JUST A SECONDARY

LOID IS BUILT DIFFERENT

[balmy storm]

HES GOT A ZYLOK AND A DREAM

[solid otter]

Loid swinging the ekhein, blasting the Zylok prime. Bro is called the sleeper cus he got a sleeper build

[loud dock]

LITERALLY

[balmy storm]

Bro woke up from that nap SWINGING

[loud dock]

i mean i dont blame albrecht for being head over heels for him my god

[fierce kiln]

albrecht: gets burnt to a crisp
loid: reloads zylok

[cerulean kiln]

Had a Zylock

Barely even used it

[balmy storm]

Do you think he cried on the way to the cryopod after he sent Albrecht off

[solid otter]

Yes

He cried a lot. He still cries imo

[loud dock]

he absolutely did

he had the saddest little face when he had to lock in albrecht

[solid otter]

Laying in Albrecht's bed as he cries himself to sleep the millionth time

Speaking of that cutecene
-# i think its this one

[cerulean kiln]

Can fake Loid cry?

[loud dock]

LOOK AT HIM,,,,,, ;;;;;;;

like literally that man is on the verge of tears IN that scene alone

[solid otter]

Loid does cry here lol

[cerulean kiln]

What the hell is that sound quality?

[solid otter]

There's a singular tear

[solid otter]

Crunchy discord compression maybe?

[loud dock]

cunchy compression yeah

[night zephyr]

MY LOID 👹

[solid otter]

LEAVE MY SHITTY SOUND QUALITY ALONE

[loud dock]

anyway i think post R5 cavia
loid and tagfer just sit and talk a lot
since they've both lost their partners 💔

[cerulean kiln]

Discord did a disservice the the dialogue

[solid otter]

I couldn't actually hear what Albrecht says there on my first playthrough

I rely on the subtitles a lot and uh

They do kinda fail me here

[night zephyr]

(quiet whispering)

[loud dock]

like sure tagfer is mad at entrati but like
i doubt he wouldnt still kinda nod and understand the pain loid has too w/ missing the man he loved

[cerulean kiln]

Why does Albrecht shoot everyone except Wally?

[loud dock]

because being so MIA is still a pit in your chest - especially when you're faced with all the bad your partner's done

[zenith jacinth]

Never

[solid otter]

Loid just wants his lover back and Tagfer can relate

[zenith jacinth]

Limited ammo

[abstract sorrel]

Where are Roathe’s warriors

Where are Roathe’s Uriels

[zenith jacinth]

Uriel

[abstract sorrel]

He had an entire battalion

Where are they

[loud dock]

ballas had them destroyed after we crashed out

[zenith jacinth]

Frames aren't immortal

[loud dock]

and ballas tore up the blueprints
loid had to reconstruct the design from our memory

[abstract sorrel]

Why would Nitokh have allowed that

[loud dock]

dead lmao?

[solid otter]

Because its not up to her

[cerulean kiln]

On Tau

In Origin System

[loud dock]

she was funding the anarchs
im p sure she died shortly after the war re-ignited

[zenith jacinth]

She bolted when roathe disappeared

[solid otter]

Its up to the whole 7, and if there's a majority vote, she could be in the minority.

[zenith jacinth]

That's only for judgements

[solid otter]

Ballas often took it upon himself to be that deciding vote.

[abstract sorrel]

That’s assuming Ballas forced a vote

[zenith jacinth]

Ballas was in charge of the frame program

[solid otter]

Judgements... to destroy the blueprints

[zenith jacinth]

That's not a judgement