spoiler-chat

[balmy storm]

Idk, a conceptually embodied timeline is different enough from just normal conceptual embodiment to me

We’ll see who embodied it if anyone, Albrecht seems likely but heck, it coulda been Wally

[real niche]

If Wally made it, that would be a big brain move on his part

Though not sure if he really feels emotion

[nova harness]

He’s called the Indifference not the emotionless

[nocturne kiln]

He/it has emotions. The man in the wall just, truely, does not care about us beyond it's own curiosity and delight

[real niche]

Indifference is to have a lack of emotion towards something, though.

[nova harness]

But it’s not emotionless

[balmy storm]

Its clearly not emotionless and the indifference is just a name, he isn’t literally the man in the wall as that’s a fabricated form, he isn’t literally a lidless eye, he isn’t literally indifferent as he has and is effected by emotions

Wally is likely the way he is due to how Albrecht felt upon entering the void for the first time, he pulls from the minds of others and that includes emotions

Or it likely does include emotions

[nova harness]

Just saw someone call Ballas the space drag queen

[real niche]

RIGHT. DANGIT. NO SWEARING.

[nova harness]

Get loided

[rain otter]

Don't insult my drag queen friends with this qoute.

[obtuse gyro]

It sure dont act like it "does not care about us beyond its own curiousity and delight"

It wants what we have

It teaches to be known, because to be known is to exist and to exist is to survive

Sure dont sound like "just curious and seeking delight"

[heavy pollen]

Can someone make this backpack IRL

[obtuse gyro]

You say that like after tennocon DE isnt just going to have one on their table during devstreams

[heavy pollen]

lol 😂 who knows

[torn hound]

Ballas is so funny to me sometimes bc why does he have beef with a child

imagine having beef with a child your lover found couldn't be me

[balmy storm]

It wasn’t just one child but yeah

[torn hound]

beef with multiple children

[balmy storm]

many many children

a colony ship's worth of children

[torn hound]

and the player happened to be the one he had the most beef with

[vocal quail]

can someone help me get a helmith charger by infecting me

[ocean void]

Got ask Nidus to infect you, idk going to the relay count

[fierce summit]

Hundreds of children who also burned half her face off (or some other disfigurement, I don't remember what it was or if it's ever stated)

[warm anvil]

my biggest prediction for 1999, is the infested liches that were hinted about.. will be sentient versions of those infested computers. they will have simple faces on their computer and talk to us

some sort of computer infested lich in general

[valid jolt]

Yea I’m also betting that they get introduced in 1999

This is like one of the biggest moments where Infested have been mentioned in the story

[obtuse gyro]

Just 1 kid really, not hundreds

[rain otter]

I just want a Infested deadlock protocol style update alright.

We gotten some hints towards a hive mind and them giving eris' tile sets a face-lift.

[warm anvil]

oh yeah i forgot that the infested is some weird hive mind. i need to rewatch/replay that quest

[tawdry socket]

I'd kill for an Eris tileset removal or complete overhaul, easily my least favourite next to corpus ice planet

So was the Nine Inch Nails song Into The Void diegetic or non-diegetic

Basically what I'm asking is does Arthur have a mixtape

And can we get NIN somachord tunes

[nocturne kiln]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think rebecca already confirmed that last one

[nocturne kiln]

for into the void at least

[nocturne kiln]

So... asked this before but the AX-52; crit based weapon or status based weapon? What do you guys think?

[obtuse gyro]

Crit lol

[real niche]

1. Most builds are "hybrid", seperating between crit and status is meaningless in most contexts
2. Given the other weapons they've put out during Tennocon, it'll probably have at least decent crit

[tawdry socket]

It'll be pretty good for starters but fall off early Steel Path

And then you'll unlock the Incarnon

Either that or the prime

[real niche]

I doubt there's gonna be a prime for this

[tawdry socket]

I mean they've mentioned the weapon is gonna be obtainable via other means in the future, which says to me "This is just a weapon from the 1999 update"

And if that update happens to come with 2 weapons and a new Warframe, well,

It looks enough like it fits in with tenno design

[rain otter]

Deadlock protocol was a full remaster of Corpus ship tile sets so I would want that for "Infested ships"

[tawdry socket]

Oh I'm well aware

[rain otter]

Yee

It's also based on a old tile set that isn't in the game anymore.

[tawdry socket]

Ironically that's BECAUSE of deadlock

[rain otter]

Yep

[tawdry socket]

the only good thing about the eris tileset has is that fan that kills you

[rain otter]

Lul

I hate that tile set so much

It's so old and terrible.

[nova harness]

I remember when Corpus ships had windows you could destroy that was funny

[left slate]

87% chance of it not randomly blowing up when you breathe on it. Yeah I remember

[balmy badger]

Any kind of AoE going off in those rooms was instant tileset lockdown. Good times

[nocturne kiln]

fitst he theme of old ships being abandoned due to the infestation

[halcyon gull]

Dude I played through the Whispers quest a couple days ago and the song from the 1999 scene ("Into The Void" by Nine Inch Nails) has been stuck in my head.
Istg they better bring NIN out at TennoCon and have them play that lmao

I'm so hyped for WF '99 it's not even funny

[halcyon gull]

I like this idea

[warm anvil]

ooh btw if you unlock steel path you can get incarnons from steel path circuit

[proper oxide]

I’m at a lost rn how ||Sorren became a Stalker||

[nova harness]

He got a Woman pregnant

[proper oxide]

HOW!!👀

[chilly pine]

speculation is he was turned into one for breaking the legem, or became one after the downfall to hunt the tenno that killed his masters, i dont believe its explicitly stated anywhere yet

[nova harness]

Well when a man and a woman love each other a certain thing can happen

And no Warframes can’t get pregnant

[proper oxide]

I’m guessing that ||he was Guardian of the Orokin by his master after he became a stalker??||Based on what I know from now

[proper oxide]

Oh-.. that’s

I know his master ||died by a warframe||

I could be wrong though

[cobalt hedge]

how indeed

[nova harness]

Basically Sorren and Jade had an unsanctioned either relationship or unsanctioned baby then a blue person found out

[proper oxide]

oh… OH A BLUE PERSON!!!

[cobalt hedge]

blue man group be cruel nowdays

[nova harness]

I don’t think a blue person has ever done a kind thing in their life

[cobalt hedge]

there must have been nice orokin

even if we dont know them

[nova harness]

Sorry I killed them

[cobalt hedge]

you got lost in the sauce

[chilly pine]

i mean, the entratis seem nice, but idk if thats due to all the time that passed or if they always were good

[cobalt hedge]

we know that mother cared for the weak in hear stern and cold way

[gilded valley]

And used the seriglass to cut up father

[nova harness]

I dunno sometimes I can’t tell if Grandmother is gonna be nice or want to beat me up

[cobalt hedge]

tales of duviri was a self defence guidebook for void exposure

[cobalt hedge]

father wasnt weak

[chilly pine]

the family was pretty dysfunctional before we came along iirc

[cobalt hedge]

russian ahh grandma

[gilded valley]

No, but he's an idiot as he said himself

[cobalt hedge]

emotionally idiot not as a intelect

[nova harness]

Wasn’t the whole point of ranking up with the family was that that were dysfunctional?

[cobalt hedge]

it was

[gilded valley]

Yes, but the infested pretty much claimed near most of what they were

[nova harness]

https://tenor.com/view/albrecht-entrati-the-man-in-the-wall-warframe-1999-warframe-you-are-late-warframe-jojo-gif-4432154459658682236

Then there’s this man

[cobalt hedge]

i hope that Fass and Vomes fights are an embodiment of the dysfunctional part of the family

[cobalt hedge]

bro is such a scaredy-cat he doomed an entire solar system

[gilded valley]

Yes and no, that was Ballas that sealed the deal

[nova harness]

He mentioned it before Ballas even tried it

[gilded valley]

And now in the New War quest, he's done it

[graceful zodiac]

There really weren't. Even the nicest Orokin around were still self centered jerks to each other

[gilded valley]

He truly open the doors of which the boogyman was behind

[graceful zodiac]

They were dysfunctional long before the Infestation got a hold of them

[nocturne kiln]

Im taking his hat

[nova harness]

I’m taking his coat

[nocturne kiln]

I took his hat

[nova harness]

Bro got Warframe 1999 early

[nocturne kiln]

your turn

🙂

[nova harness]

I have to find him first

[nocturne kiln]

Im stealin his entire fit.

[nova harness]

Gl

[valid jolt]

The new Albrecht drip looks crazy

[nocturne kiln]

next step is getting his chain to put this thing on

[nova harness]

When they selling the coat?

[nocturne kiln]

No idea but im saving up for it

honestly im more likely to steal his belt buckle first

maybe his shirt...

Imma leave him naked and afraid

[nova harness]

Maybe his brain

[undone lodge]

Are you going to get a sphynx cat to match Kalymos

[valid jolt]

His jacket is the coolest part of his outfit

[nocturne kiln]

I mean, given the size it would have to be...

Do you have a seller for a sphynx this big?

[undone lodge]

Just stack a few on top of eachother

It’s close enough

[valid jolt]

Check for someone in Egypt

[nova harness]

The cat is the best thing about his appearance

[nocturne kiln]

I disagree. definitely the coat

[nova harness]

The cat looks better than Albrecht

[nocturne kiln]

probably. man hasnt had a transference in a while

[nova harness]

Bro looks like he hasn’t slept in 1999 days

[static steppe]

God i should've played the new war before playing duvriri paradox

[nocturne kiln]

He has bags under his eyes but his teeth are immaculate

[nova harness]

Indeed

[static steppe]

I want to see how ugly my drifter would've looked

[nocturne kiln]

Remember how so many people said thier drifter turned into Obama because of the similar facial structure of certain presets?

[nova harness]

As ugly as your Operator but taller

[tawdry socket]

That tile still exists on pluto!

Just yknow on the ground

[halcyon gull]

I have SP unlocked and I've done one whole mission on it. The game literally took a full second to register my damage ticks cus I was doing so little damage

[balmy storm]

A blast from the past 😢

[near rune]

Yeah a lot of the tiles from the old Corpus Ship tileset are also present in the Corpus Outpost tileset, and to a lesser extent in the Corpus Ice Planet and Infested Ship tilesets.

[nova harness]

Gray are reworks canon?

[cobalt hedge]

they repurposed the ships into outposts

hehehe

[cobalt hedge]

yes

[fierce summit]

Ice ship and infested ship also have a lot of "middle" era tiles with horizontal sliding doors and the like
And then the old Corpus Ship Defense / Interception node still exists as the Corpus half of the Tyana Pass Mirror Defense mission

[cobalt hedge]

retrofitted armada in deadlock

[near rune]

I think they're usually a little canon. For warframe and weapon reworks they're usually accompanied by an inbox message from Ordis. For tileset reworks there are some oblique references, like Alad implying that he rebuilt his old Gas City into the new tileset, or Nef Anyo mentioning the retrofit of the Corpus fleet.

I mean a lot of what is and isn't canon in this game is up to player interpretation. The devs usually don't say things outright.

[fierce summit]

Captain Xeto also refers to the Infested Ships on Eris as old hulks or something in Jade Shadows

[near rune]

But the reworks do have lore references, generally, so I would say that points in the direction of canon.

[cobalt hedge]

xeto is way more pleasant to look at than vala

[nova harness]

When did the infested defeat the Corpus?

[cobalt hedge]

what?

[fierce summit]

Unsure but I want to say that the infested ship tileset is supposed to be Mutalist Alad-V's doing

[nova harness]

Corpus used to own Eris

[chilly pine]

infested ships were alad v's doing, atleast at eris iirc

Alad V was messing with the infested in eris and things got out of control and now eris is what it is

[cobalt hedge]

an infested dump

[chilly pine]

indeed, tho i wonder what an eris surface tileset would look like

[cobalt hedge]

rocks with infested bits like the inverse of deimos

[balmy storm]

Would love to see that

Maybe it’s a place where we can talk to one of the hiveminds

[undone lodge]

I wonder how Eris would look if it had Grey Strain instead of regular Infestation

[chilly pine]

probably pretty similar to deimos

[nova harness]

About the same

[cobalt hedge]

like deimos

[nova harness]

I wanna see what Deimos outside looked like pre infestation

[chilly pine]

honestly itd be cool to see the orogin system as a whole at the height of the empire

[cobalt hedge]

like rock with entrati buildings on it

[balmy storm]

Conceptually embody a timeline where the Orokin kept winning instead of losing

[nova harness]

So a timeline where they didn’t build the Sentients and the Zariman succeeded?

[chilly pine]

or a timeline where they werent such pricks

[nova harness]

I don’t think there’s a single timeline where that doesn’t exist

[chilly pine]

probably

[balmy storm]

And where they actually controlled the Infested

[undone lodge]

Timeline where Ballas wasn’t born

[cobalt hedge]

orokins would still be in power

[nova harness]

Plural of Orokin is Orokin

[cobalt hedge]

damn

thanks tho

[tawdry socket]

moooooods

[cobalt hedge]

@ionic sleet

thanks bro

[ionic sleet]

[nova harness]

Alyxis always got a nuke on hold

[scarlet basalt]

I still think that Parvos will somehow be related to "sending us" to 1999
It is the only other people that is meddling with time given his production of protea prime

[cobalt hedge]

im like 80% sure granum is in kahoots with wally

[nova harness]

We already know how to get to 1999 without him

[tawdry socket]

Also Loid despises him Parvos still seems to resent the Entrati

I highly doubt anything would come of it

[scarlet basalt]

when you say kahoot, you mean what 😭 ?

[cobalt hedge]

its an idiom

[nova harness]

Was there ever an explanation on why Parvos hates the Entrati?

[scarlet basalt]

his greed i guess ?

[cobalt hedge]

like being in kahoots with someone is to "conspire togheter with them"

[scarlet basalt]

He want everything but don't deserve that

[nova harness]

Parvos is more Orokin than the Orokin

[cobalt hedge]

he has all the orokin traits and on top of them he has the worst human trait GREED

[tawdry socket]

"You do not even realize it. You sound exactly like one of Them"
Ordis with one of his many Burns

[nova harness]

I thought Pride was the worst trait

[tawdry socket]

False

[cobalt hedge]

pride isnt as bad cus if you have pride in yourself its good but greed is bad in all form

[cobalt hedge]

or pride in your work

[cobalt hedge]

nice i just got what you meant here

[scarlet basalt]

wait does parvos age now that he doesn't have the protection of protea ?

[cobalt hedge]

he is still stuck in his void pocket

he cant exactly leave

[scarlet basalt]

true but iirc protea helped him to not age as she stuck him in time ?

[cobalt hedge]

youre correct

[tawdry socket]

Wait I thought Parvos was out? I thought that's what the translation he sent us was about where the board members all did the briefcase thing

[cobalt hedge]

remember the sister trailer? he didnt left that place

[nova harness]

Didn’t Ordis recently mention the fact he was still in it too?

[cobalt hedge]

and why would he leave he? he couldnt be in a safer place even if he tried to

[nova harness]

He has people to do dangerous tasks for him

His Sisters keep getting destroyed though

[cobalt hedge]

by us but i doubt other factions could do much harm to them

[nova harness]

Sister vs Lich when?

[cobalt hedge]

in your backyard with the converted ones

[nova harness]

DE broke the Sister and lich trailers with this update

On Xbox controller X is the button to watch the trailer and now is also the button to remove the ones we don’t need

[nocturne kiln]

Maybe not the worst but I think the seven deadly sins definitely applied to the Orokin Empire

[lusty basin]

It is definitely not as obvious in this case, outside of Gluttony

If this is the theme

Which is good

[scarlet basalt]

Givzn that parvos is said to be meddling with time
The palimpsest of principle may only apply to him ?
It could make sense that it could only work with him in the sense that he would try to kill the tenno as he become more and more of a threat against his own conviction, only him is said to be meddling with time (said on the protea trailer)
But then the palimpsest also talk about the originals
But I think in the end, it's us ? It make sense that it's us because the new war implied that only 2 of us exist , the drifter and us, the originals ? Because they exist as the "only one" , the void is making an example of that by making albretch force to use the most "original" one as they are almost extinct for example

[prime lantern]

He doesn't possess the ability to do that

[prisma fox]

Theory for the Drifter/Operator connection: ||What if the Drifter was the only version of us offered the deal by the Man in the Wall? That deal seems to be the most likely divergence point for the timelines, presumably either through only one version of us being offered it, only one version of us accepting it, or the terms being different. The latter seems unlikely given the Indifference's "timeless" nature. The middle option has potentially conflicting evidence for who accepted the deal: either the Drifter accepted it in which case its a mystery how the Operator-timeline children got their void powers which are apparently connected to Wally, or the Operator accepted it in which case the Duviri dialogue "I said I'd save all of them. Never said I'd save you." doesn't make sense. So what if the Drifter was the only one offered the deal, and the Man's "gift" was given across all timelines? Wally emphasises "I can save them. I can save all of them." "All of them", coming from something as powerful as the Indifference? Drifter-us accepts the deal, and in return for being left behind, the Zariman children across every timeline are given a Void connection. Operator-us was never offered the deal, because it had already been accepted.||

[solar spoke]

drifter refused the deal

That's why he aged

[real niche]

Or the deal had different details

[prisma fox]

One of the Zariman tablets in Duviri says "I saved them. All of them. Never said I'd save you." To me at least this implies that everyone was saved except the one who accepted the deal.

[solar spoke]

The drifter was the version of us that struck a deal with wally

Save all of us. And so he did across every timeline. Except for the drifter

That theory does make a lot of sense squid

[prisma fox]

Yep, that's what I'm suggesting

[solar spoke]

But eternalism. The man in the wall is stuck on 1 strand of khra atm

[obtuse gyro]

I can answer this real ez:

They both accepted the deal. It was the same deal. The point of the split was the acceptance of the deal.

"I can save them. All of them"

Operator is saved because they would fulfil "them", because it implied "everyone, including self"

"I didn't say I'd save you"

Drifter isnt saved because the word of the deal didnt specify the dealtaker

Wally exploits a legal loophole to generate the Drifter Operator split

[solar spoke]

Squid's makes more sense

[obtuse gyro]

Mind you that your premise is "offered the deal" something that the Operator timeloop demonstrates to us, did happen to the operator

[solar spoke]

Didn't every version of us that didn't accept the deal not including drifter cease to exist?

I might be mistaken though

[obtuse gyro]

Squids premise is already demonstrated to be inaccurate by the cutscene and the addendum by the sanctum computer

[prisma fox]

I think that has less assumptions, but Wally behaving in that way just feels... weird to me. I don't think he'd allow his deal to be upheld in two different ways.

[real niche]

He's very wishy-washy when it comes to what the deals he has mean (see: Whispers In The Walls)

[obtuse gyro]

Who benefitted the most from having the deal split like that?

Quid pro quo.

Why wouldnt wally want to uphold his own deal as such?

[solar spoke]

?

Not entirely imo. Wally is stuck to one timeline atm

[prisma fox]

Which addendum is that?

[solar spoke]

losing his fingers bound him to that one

[obtuse gyro]

The confirmation that the zariman sequence featuring the operator is the operators timeloop, meaning that the event where wally offers the deal to the operator happened in the operators past.

Thus the "Drifter was the only one offered" premise isnt accurate

[solar spoke]

Or that's the drifter

[obtuse gyro]

Idk who is this in response to, because this doesnt seem to be relevant as a response to either me nor seal

[solar spoke]

considering that both are the same person? sent it in the wrong chat

[obtuse gyro]

Definitely not lmao, the computer said it was the Tenno, not the drifter who was stuck in the timeloop

[prisma fox]

Presuming you're referring to Wally here, I don't quite see how?

[solar spoke]

The timeline diverges at the point of the deal.

Drifter could have been the version to make the deal in the past rather than the operator

[obtuse gyro]

Right after the Drifter's external influence breaks operator out of the timeloop, Wally's activity spikes

Like hard

[obtuse gyro]

Except, again, the computer specifies that the timeloop is the operator's

[solar spoke]

Where does it exactly?

[prisma fox]

Oh, true

[solar spoke]

mind sharing bc I genuinely don't remember

[obtuse gyro]

The Tenno’s personal timeline has been disrupted. Knowing he cannot kill the Tenno, Ballas has opted to imprison them within their own history. The Tenno will be unable to escape this loop without the paradoxical intervention of an outside force.

Like theres 0 room for this to be the drifter

[solar spoke]

thanks

[prisma fox]

And so when we see the Zariman flashbacks, we're seeing the Operator trapped in the loop?

[solar spoke]

must be

Then the question arises.

[obtuse gyro]

Yea those arent flashbacks, those are the operators shindigs in the loop

[solar spoke]

Is the man in the wall capable of blatant deceit

[obtuse gyro]

Given that a driving factor of the operator/drifter taking the deal is because the adults started going mad because of wally?

Wally thus proven to be manipulative, which means exploiting a legal loophole is right up his spooky alley

[solar spoke]

If the operator report is true then the tablet in duviri is suspect

[obtuse gyro]

Why would it be

[solar spoke]

If every timeline accepted the deal from wally. Why would he choose to only apply the loophole to one of them

what's the purpose in that

[obtuse gyro]

If we assume wally to have some measure of 4D perception

Or even at minimum some level of knowledge and good forward thinking

Having the split of the drifter, leads to the operator breaking out

Either wally saw that, or he prepped for that eventuality or he was extremely lucky in that regard

[solar spoke]

But what does he gain from the operator's escape?

Wally has a motive. he wants his fingers back

[obtuse gyro]

Note that Wally activity spikes after the operator escapes

[obtuse gyro]

He wants more than just his fingers

[solar spoke]

fingers are what allowed him to travel between timelines freely no?

[obtuse gyro]

Duviri children and cavia lines indicate his finger isnt the end goal

Hell dante's final leverian too

"He wants what we have"
"Inside me is too big for outside me"
"It feels lonely"
"It teaches to be known, to be known is to exist, to exist is to survive"

[solar spoke]

so what's his endgame?

[obtuse gyro]

Not explicitly shown, but I wager its for a self

Personhood, individual identity, a persona

[solar spoke]

It's a possibility but it's more scientific than that

[prisma fox]

The only thing that really gets me about that version of events is Wally's behaviour seems wrong for him to me. It's not entirely clear what rules he works by, but presumably there are rules (otherwise why would he care to make a deal at all?) and it feels strange for those rules to allow him to make the same deal in all timelines, and execute its terms differently in exactly one timeline. He's not above using misleading terms when making a deal, but surely there'd be some correct interpretation of the deal that he knows before it's accepted

[solar spoke]

For him to carry it out in all timelines except 1 ins interesting

[obtuse gyro]

More scientific? My guy drusus has already remarked that wally yapped to him stuff that makes a lie of science

We're in the mind now babey

[solar spoke]

Wally likes to experiment

He did it with the cavia, Rell, the Tenno

[prisma fox]

Admittedly that's heavily into speculation territory, but... he's the Man In The Wall. There's only so much we can say confidently about him :I

[solar spoke]

My main thing was he couldn't have known about the creation of duviri

he clearly manipulated it in some way but he couldn't have known that the drifter would create it

[obtuse gyro]

I mean, even today we have goobers who are still applying different interpretations of the same law (in this case deal), this isnt so novel or uncommon in normal humans

[solar spoke]

Nor did he know that Teshin would be there to "save" the drifter. Changing the deal has too many variables

I think his activity spiked because he's interested in the drifter more now

[obtuse gyro]

I mean sure he wouldnt have known that drifter would make duviri, but that didnt stop wally from mucking about in duviri

Like mans a prolific terrorist there

Doesnt help that albrecht came along and also preached about wally's shenanigans

[prisma fox]

A socially constructed deal is easier to have multiple contradictory but correct interpretations of than what's presumably a cosmically-defined deal

[solar spoke]

Exactly, but only to a limited extent. He's also letting what happens in duviri happen

he's content to observe the drifter.

[obtuse gyro]

I mean, the cosmically-definied deal is still a socially constructed deal between child and eldritch bugger

Being "cosmically-defined" does little to nothing to make the interpretation more rigid

It just makes the impact much larger

[prisma fox]

I'm presuming the deal in some way is what enabled him to act to give the children the Void powers. If he could've just done that without needing us to agree, he'd have done a lot more to the system by now.

[solar spoke]

But we have to assume a few things. Either A: Man in the wall is bound to the terms of a deal, or B: He did it for fun and is not bound by the terms of any deal

[obtuse gyro]

I mean, if you look at the deal offered, what terms are you even thinking of?

[solar spoke]

Saving the operator

[obtuse gyro]

Okay and its fulfilled

[prisma fox]

And thus I'm also assuming A because otherwise he could just say "thanks for shaking my hand now I control everything lol"

[solar spoke]

or ha you die anyway I don't want to do jack squat

[left slate]

Saving the kids. Not you (us)

[solar spoke]

I think the tablet in duviri is potentially a lie. It makes more sense that the drifter refused than the man in the wall was playing like 8th dimensional chess

[obtuse gyro]

Its not 8th dimensional chess what

Its just a legal loophole

[solar spoke]

But why use the loophole in one specific case

[prisma fox]

And if he is bound by the deal in some cosmic sense, presumably there is a single correct interpretation

[solar spoke]

Exactly

[obtuse gyro]

Except thats not necessarily true???

What part of cosmic means that there is a single interpretation

[solar spoke]

Why change the deal for one version of the same person only?

it's nonsensical

[obtuse gyro]

Because its the split there

Like we're not looking at two timelines here, its one timeline that splits on the deal

Its not a chopstick its a two twine fork

[prisma fox]

Because it's not being enforced by a fallible person committee. It'd be enforced by something more powerful than the Indifference.

[obtuse gyro]

Huh?

[solar spoke]

The operator report informs us that the tenno version is the main version of the timeline

[prisma fox]

If he is bound by the deal somehow, there is some force that he can't control that enables and limits his powers accordingly.

[solar spoke]

Wally is the same across all timelines

[obtuse gyro]

Not necessarily true

[solar spoke]

How

In which case he didn't make a deal with the operator, he gave a gift

[obtuse gyro]

You dont need a higher power to be bound at all, this has been shown in different media all over

[solar spoke]

that's not evidence that's a fallacy

[prisma fox]

I think you might be confusing how I'm stating this with me implying that it's some sort of consciousness or entity actively enforcing those rules.

I'm suggesting it more as being some unshakeable law of the universe.

[obtuse gyro]

Compared to assuming theres a higher power arbitrarily?

[solar spoke]

Not an assumption, we have 2 routes

[prisma fox]

Gravity dictates objects with mass attract each other. But it's not a being, it doesn't have any presence or agenda, and you certainly can't convince it to reinterpret its "terms".

[solar spoke]

A: Wally is bound to his word on a deal, Or B: he does what he wants for funsies. In B there is no deal so there's nothing to manipulate he can choose to do whatever. In which case his deal with the operator is a gift, not a contract

[prisma fox]

Something like that (except presumably even more deeply embedded in reality) is what I'm arguing binds Wally to the deal

[obtuse gyro]

Except what we're dealing with isnt gravity, it is a conscious being that made a deal

[obtuse gyro]

Ok, and Im saying that this doesnt necessitate a single correct interpretation

Especially since the purview of the void is the mind and unconsciousness

[prisma fox]

In any fiction where deals have some kind of supernatural power, there's some set of rules that enforce those deals.

[prisma fox]

It doesn't, but I think it implies it

[obtuse gyro]

This was under the impression that you meant higher being. Under the idea that its something baked into the "way the universe works" is different and more plausible.

However it still doesnt necessitate it

[solar spoke]

That's what we're saying. It's baked into the way wally's deals work.

[obtuse gyro]

I disagree, the mind and unconsciousness deals heavily in being reinterpreted and reiterated. "Single correct X" is a tough thing here

[obtuse gyro]

Being bound to honour your deal is one thing

Having a single correct interpretation is another

[solar spoke]

He's not honor bound to anything in option B

That's what I'm saying. Either his deals are enforced by something. Or his deals are lies because there isn't any "deal" just a verbal agreement

[obtuse gyro]

Okay, Im not even arguing for B. Options A and B are a separate issue from Wally exploiting a legal loophole in the deal he made and has honoured by saving the operator

[prisma fox]

I think Option B's fairly unlikely. He has some agenda, and if B was true he'd presumably have the power to fulfill it more directly

[obtuse gyro]

"Single correct interpretation" is an entirely different issue to "Is he bound to honour the deal"

[solar spoke]

Honor's not a part of it. How his powers work are

[obtuse gyro]

Which is why Ive said im not arguing for B at all

[solar spoke]

If I made 1 million deals at the same exact point in time. How could I change the terms I've dictated already. If however there's a version of someone that doesn't accept that deal it's different. I think the drifter's deal might be one that happened later

He refused the initial deal and went back to make one

[prime lantern]

There doesn't need to be a higher power especially with deal making entities

It's basic contracts

The wording of the deal is what wally is bound to

[wet schooner]

Hi there, my account hve been hacked and i don't found where can i engage a chat with Warframe support, can someone help me pls ?

[solar spoke]

Wally used the loophole at a different point in time

[prime lantern]

#support-and-bugs

[wet schooner]

ty

[prime lantern]

There's nothing saying this

We don't know what wally got out of the deal and we don't know when's he gonna use it if the thing he got is an active item

[wet schooner]

Oh, i've looking this link, but there is only article that may help u with some tips.. didn't found where can i create a ticket..

[solar spoke]

I'm not saying there is. It's my personal theory

[obtuse gyro]

Let me say again, the point of the split is the acceptance of the deal. Meaning that prior there was one timeline

[solar spoke]

I acknowledged that already

[obtuse gyro]

Only after the acceptance then we have two timelines, one drifter one operator

[prime lantern]

Are any of you familiar with Russells tea pot

It's an example of a logical fallacy

[solar spoke]

Drifter refused the initial deal and later made one out of desperation

[prisma fox]

If I may, I doubt we're going to achieve much more from this discussion. The main point of disagreement between us two now is whether "there is a cosmic force embedded in the universe binding Wally to his deals" more strongly implies "there is one correct interpretation of any deal he makes" or "there are potentially multiple correct interpretations of any deal he makes" and we're so far into speculation I doubt there's anything from the game that backs up either belief

[obtuse gyro]

This means means that the loophole was applied exactly once causing the split

[prisma fox]

Just because you can't disprove something doesn't mean it exists?

[solar spoke]

Burden of proof lies on the claimant

[prime lantern]

The opposite

That is appeal to ignorance

[prisma fox]

Just because you can't prove something exists doesn't mean it doesn't?

[prime lantern]

My god I am awful at reading

You were correct the first time

[prisma fox]

no harm done

[prime lantern]

There's nothing to indicate some cosmic being is holding wally to his word

[solar spoke]

but there's also nothing indicating there isn't either

[prime lantern]

Appeal to ignorance

[obtuse gyro]

I think the crux of the disagreement is that I dont see how there being something that compells wally to be bound to honour his deal implies that theres a single correct interpretation.

Ive seen enough caselaw where sentencing (in this case deal fulfilment) can be appealed because of a different interpretation

[solar spoke]

ah my fault got them mixed up

[prisma fox]

I seemingly haven't been making this distinction clear enough, but I haven't been arguing there's a higher power. Just that inherently there is some set of rules that bind them, and they can't just ignore those rules because if they could there'd be no point in making deals

[prime lantern]

The rules that bind are the wording of the deal

[obtuse gyro]

Squid isnt arguing for a being, just arguing for law of the universe type thing

[prime lantern]

It's monkey paws

I wish to never need to eat again

And thus you are immediately killed

Dead people don't eat

[prisma fox]

So that's still a version of "some set of rules binds them". I've been arguing for a different version of that concept but the basic form still holds

[solar spoke]

Personally I believe that Wally is bound to the meaning of his word

I also think that he can use a loophole

I think the drifter refusing the initial deal makes more sense than wally changing the terms for just one person

[prime lantern]

I mean the terms were "saving them all of them you just have to really want it"

Seems intentionally vague

[worthy trench]

Though when they talked, the other part spoke of them like they had always been two timelines ever since your character was saved. Their half not being saved is what made the two timelines or something along that

[solar spoke]

Drifter coming to wally later to ask him to save everyone would allow a timeline to split but also allow him to use a loophole

[prime lantern]

Room for our 4d cheater to add

[solar spoke]

I think wally is calculated.

He can be tricked but the actions he takes are deliberate under the condition that in interests him

If the drifter refused the deal that gives wally the opportunity to later alter the terms in case something happens

[prisma fox]

I guess my thought is that normal language alone wouldn't be an effective medium to truly represent the deal. He defines the deal in something more innate to him. The words he say have to be able to correctly represent the deal's terms (although if it's worded in a way that allows someone to misinterpret it, that's not his problem :P), but they aren't the definition

(That's just deriving from my perception of how any deal-making entity would work, nothing Wally-specific)

Though, I suppose that doesn't imply anything preventing him from making two different deals that happen to be representable with the same words, apart from the fact that the timelines wouldn't be differentiated at that point... I suppose that doesn't actually hold much weight, then.

It still feels strange that Wally would choose to interpret a deal more favourably to us in every timeline except one, but if his capability to know the future is great enough, he knows that ends up of being most benefit to him

[quasi ravine]

||Spoilers happen in this channel ||

[prisma fox]

So I guess now the viability of my theory largely weighs on "did Wally know that making the deal would enable... however he benefits from whatever happens at the end of the New War"

[obtuse gyro]

Theres actually an interpretation of the end of the loop (the ones with the ops flopping about) that might make more sense here

Your strangeness is because the ops flopping makes it seem like other timelines just gets thwacked yes?

[prisma fox]

Not really but I'll hear you out

[obtuse gyro]

The ops flopping arent actually other timelines, is just you being stuck in the loop

Only because of drifter do you break out. The rest are just you flopping because youre stuck in the loop

Which means the deal was only truely made an applied in one timeline that caused a split in two.

Ive just realised the importance of the fact that there is still only one realised timeline

Realised as compared to real

[valid jolt]

@obtuse gyro did our Operator die to Ballas’s stab during the New War?

[obtuse gyro]

Die? No

[valid jolt]

So then they were just badly hurt, but the Void/Wally healed them?

[prisma fox]

The Operator might be at least partially immortal in some way, given that Ballas is like "Yeah I can't kill you so go to jail nerd"

[valid jolt]

Tenno are just very hard to kill

[rain otter]

No Ballas basically put it in purgatory on purpose Ballas knew he couldn't kill us. If the Drifter didn't exist the operator would still be there.

Just stuck In the void.

[prime lantern]

Ballas stuck us in my favorite piece of text evidence

[valid jolt]

Lol

[nocturne kiln]

The void has a reduced effect of permanence on them. Due to exposure they are like a normal human within the void (as opposed to being torn apart) but while in the material universe they have extraordinary powers and slower aging.

[prime lantern]

The void has no effect on the tennos aging people just age slow

[balmy storm]

Also the Tenno were in cryosleep for a long time

[junior vine]

In all reality aren't the grineer and Corpus just shooting little kids?

[bronze glen]

Evensong Prime and Harmony Prime are going to be busted af lmao

[bronze glen]

In all reality, didn't the Orokin train child soldiers?

[junior vine]

Yeah

[junior vine]

We better also get cantare prime

Also Jade should be after either Dante or Qorvex

[tawdry socket]

Where have I heard this one before.....

OH YEAH!

[nocturne kiln]

Not quite. That would assume there's a place where superman's powers simply don't work because there's too much sun. Tenno odor not have any power while in the void because it's akin to turning on a garden hose beneath the surface of the ocean. Yeah, they might be putting forth energy but there's too much of it already present for it to be noticed.

[tawdry socket]

get loided

I meant moreso that like, Kryptonians are just like Regular Dudes on their home planet but they come to earth and then BAM superpowers

And then you don't read into it further because Comic lore is so painfully inconsistent

[steep delta]

in Warframe, Natah was the "mother" of the Tenno and she protected the Tenno. Ballas was well Evil. Is this correct for an explanation of who Natah and Ballas are?

At the very basic levels I mean

[nova harness]

Yeah Natah is also a Sentient and the Tenno had another Mother called Margulis who Natah was coded to act like

[steep delta]

Figured

[vague apex]

is this an intended feature of Jade?

[nova harness]

Yes, that’s intended

[vague apex]

interesting

[nova harness]

It’s due to events in Jade Shadows

[vague apex]

havent played it yet, so ill exit the chat until i have 🫡

[scarlet basalt]

Maybe, the palimpset of principle will also somehow be affecting the infestation as a whole
Given that we're going "back in time" to 1999 where the infestation seems to be WAY more rampant than current warframe it would affect them by making new units for them, new dangerous foe that came from 1999
The way DE somehow put infestation on a lot of quest make me question if the infestation will have insane way to deal with warframes, i mean a hivemind learn through the death of their units... So why she hasn't done something good against us ?

we've killed jordas, a lot of juggernaut,etc... And despite centuries passing we don't have a hard time killing them ?

[balmy storm]

I wouldn’t say the infestation is any more rampant in 1999 than anywhere else

[nova harness]

Infestation do what infestation do

[scarlet basalt]

mhh true, the only time were infestation were the wildest one is that one weird lore where it almost took the entire solar system no ?

[balmy storm]

?

[scarlet basalt]

wait i forgot i read that once

[balmy storm]

I mean, the infestation in the origin system has done a lot and is known to be a major threat, one of the main 3

We just dont see changes to it very often because the Tenno aren’t a large enough threat to it, remember we aren’t actually killing them by the thousands, that’s just gameplay

[scarlet basalt]

weird, given that we're literally for them the worst thing that exist
They fear the void and what is in, and feels like they fear us as we're the void demon

[balmy storm]

Single spores take ships
Its shown it has deception skills and intelligence with the Nightwave event
Its still dangerous and change does on occasion occur but it isn’t as much of a focus

[balmy storm]

I wouldn’t say we are the worst thing that exists to them

[scarlet basalt]

Lol now i wonder one thing :

Knowing Alad V was able to directly influence Infested development means that there may be others doing the same.
-Cordylon
Imagine if it's a plot twist from 1999 😭 like there's the Alad V of 1999

[balmy storm]

Eeh, we may get some insight on the infestation’s origins but I doubt someone messing with it to cause what happened in 1999

[scarlet basalt]

i always thought that the orokin weren't the creator of the infestation but rebooted project, seems that it could be that ?

[balmy storm]

If 1999 is a conceptually embodied timeline (we dont know the full ramifications of that) and its even somewhat accurate to the true year of 1999 then one of the primary threats, or at least lore bits hidden away, could explore the creator of the infestation
Who possibly is named Lephantis iirc?

[balmy storm]

Yeah, as far as we know the Orokin did not create the infestation but did utilize it and did interact with it during the radiation wars

[scarlet basalt]

Yeah 200% this will have dark sector reference 😭

[balmy storm]

If its a dark sector reference then the infestation was made by a country as a bioweapon
Which seems plausible

In Dark Sector it’s specifically the USA who makes it

[tawdry socket]

Dark Sector is already in 1999 as an arcade game

[balmy storm]

I’m guessing if we get into it at all we’ll learn more of Lephantis whatever their name was (its on one of the tablets) and may learn why they made it at the very least, doubt a how, potentially a when and maybe how it got out of hand

Wasn’t it as a movie?

Or is it both?

[tawdry socket]

I thought it was an arcade cabinet

Idk

[balmy storm]

Ik its a movie poster

[scarlet basalt]

I really think that this would be explored in 1999, a bio weapon used against countries... It make sense to do that because it would "adapt"
There's also one tricky lore that we can think about : The leviathan, the leviathan could be controlled by someone and was product of the infestation. The creator of the infestation would likely think something like that as it's in the earlier stage of adaptation/evolution, where they have time to control it 🤔 ?

[balmy storm]

Imagine living during the year of 1999, you see the movie about this guy who gets weird super powers and fights these weird zombie things but wuh oh now your computer grew legs and is trying to eat you?!

[balmy storm]

It def makes sense that it’d be something they initially had intended for it to be controllable but woopsies it adapted out of being controlled

[scarlet basalt]

Resident evil 😍

[balmy storm]

They do have Leon’s VA 😶

[scarlet basalt]

The resident really became evil 😭

[balmy storm]

I’m curious to see that if 1999 is a conceptually embodied timeline will it in fact have an effect on the infestation in the origin system, obviously nothing major as changing up all of the infestation for every part of the game would kinda be uh. A lot
But it could result in us getting liches somehow, we know at least one strain has dabbled in deception and seems to display higher intelligence, many strains are capable of some form of communication, so maybe something in 1999 will cause the Origin System side of it to kick it into taking higher actions

Though they may also want to keep infested liches in 1999 too, it’ll depend on what exactly the gameplay loop for it will be since we dont even know if its another open world or what

[lusty basin]

I'll say, it would make sense if Arlo was the one that sends out infested Liches

Reuse Devotees as their pre-tramsformation

[nova harness]

I’ll throw you into the Void keep 1999 on your mind and it will become embodiment

[balmy storm]

All that will be embodied is Aoi

Do you think the coloration for infested liches will be purple or green?
Since kuva liches are red and sisters are blue

[lusty basin]

Also, I'm curious about quirks, like an infested lich being afraid of children.

[balmy storm]

I’m curious what weapons or other special mechanics they may have

Would be interesting to have a lich that adapts after every encounter, so you gotta completely change it up
But that could be annoying so idk

[valid jolt]

My image of an Infested Lich is any Resident Evil boss fight

[lusty basin]

Yeah, that could be mechanically annoying as heck depending

[nova harness]

Infested are afraid of Void so it makes sense

[lusty basin]

This is true

[balmy storm]

Maybe it’d be okay if they just adapt to whatever is used most against them in a fight and not our whole set up

[valid jolt]

Basically this

[lusty basin]

But I would love to hear an infested lich screaming about Void demons in a panic

[nova harness]

Infested liches is just Infested Lich vs Infested Lich

[balmy storm]

Imagine if infested liches need a kuva or sister first that gets infested and that’s the infested lich
You get to see someone get infested in real time

[lusty basin]

Well, the infested try to talk to the warframes, so, yeah

[balmy storm]

Helminth speaks to the tenno directly too

[nova harness]

Helminth the true Space Mom

[lusty basin]

Haha

[balmy storm]

Helminth takes care of us

[nova harness]

Helminth didn’t ditch us like Mom 3

[lusty basin]

Also, when Zealoid Prelate talks, "you are beautiful" is to the Warframe

[nova harness]

Infested showing infested love canon to Warframe?

[rain otter]

helminth talks to the operator directly after you get the helminth segment from Son. cuz apparently he did a bunch of work with helminth.

Son is secretly the Goat for making us all the helminth segments.

[lusty basin]

It is interesting, helminth talks to the Tenno, but also to the Warframe, I always have wondered if the frame responds and we just don't hear it

Though suppose not

Personally I would think infested liches may think themselves liberators to the frames

[nova harness]

Warframes can’t talk

[lusty basin]

Not what I meant but okay

[rain otter]

my thought of infested liches has always been they like are infested with helminth in it.

cuz helminth like if it was accessabile by the GREATER infested they would be making warframes all the time.

[lusty basin]

The infested don't typically "talk" as much as communicate through the infested

So I imagine what we typically "hear" is the infested speaking to the Warframe and being translated to us

Zealoid Prelate though does outright speak

[valid jolt]

Zealoid needs to come back. His character design and voice was so good

[lusty basin]

Oh absolutely

And the most advanced form of infestation outside of Warframes themselves

[balmy storm]

Thanks Arlo

[lusty basin]

It's an opportunity too, mind, as dangerous as it can be, can also open potential for it being reasoned with as well.

Like how not everything on Deimos wants us dead

[lusty basin]

Also, I like to imagine the infested lich having an emotional moment during conversion being like "you... You accept me!?"

[balmy storm]

Me with my infested lich: you’re my friend now, we’re having head exploding food later

[scarlet basalt]

Man i would

[mighty sky]

This quest has done irreparable damage to the Warframe fandom... I love it.

https://x.com/SkullForge890?t=h4vggIIZc13Uiqupi_efBw&s=09

Skull (@SkullForge890) on X

art hobbyist and avid animation enjoyer
(just a silly little guy)

Twitter

[rain otter]

true

[tawdry socket]

In his defense the guy at least linked the artist who's watermark is in the image, I don't feel like the passive agressive reply with the tweet image was necessary

[rain otter]

Oh I didn't mean to be passive aggressive my bad

[rain otter]

I'll take the L here I didn't mean to come off that way.

[tawdry socket]

That's also kinda on me, I've been a bit too negative lately and it's spilling onto how I presume other people are acting

[rain otter]

It's cool.

This wasn't that serious

[high cosmos]

Well something interesting just came up when I replayed jade shadows, seems what you choose to name the kid stays consistent. So: they will probably have the son show up in future content.
If someone that has chosen Orion can replay the quest and confirm, this would be tremendous help to see I am correct, as I chose Sirius.

[short shard]

Is Jade still pregnant? even though we all have Jade the Warframe

[bronze glen]

Pretty much, yes

I wouldn't say pregnant because there is no fetus

[short shard]

Ok

[bronze glen]

Just the big womb

[carmine portal]

With the player's copy of Jade it's less so "energy baby" and more so [non-descript ball of light]

[balmy storm]

Idk if I’d say non-descript, her whole thing is the jade light so we can assume it’s that lol

[dim sky]

wait so belly of The beast Ephemera progress is world wide tied?

[rain otter]

Yeah.

[thick jolt]

Yup same thing with lotus, margulis, natah name choice at the end of tnw, which also gives different dialogue when starting angels of the zariman.

[mild sphinx]

Can someone please explain Albrecht Entrati? What it seems to me is that epic dreads Orokin Albrecht (paintings)did the Seriglass bell/encounter with Wally, didn't do Continuity, but now everything we see of him in cutscenes is a gay younger Jo-Jo drip (human-er?) Albrecht (most likely Wally) who time travels somehow... Or is that all there is until they continue the story?

[undone lodge]

The “younger” him is him after he got his body repaired

[mild sphinx]

Repaired by loid?

[undone lodge]

And he’s not Wally, though he is possessed by him or something that we don’t really know at the end of the 1999 segment

[mild sphinx]

Then is him time traveling just void voodoo jumbo science?

Or Wally possession powers?

[undone lodge]

Wally possession only occurs at the end of 1999, both literally and as in the bit we played

Before then, which includes when he does the time travel, while he worries, it hasn’t happened

We don’t actually know much about the time travel itself, but we can make guesses. Strand of Khra probably just means timeline, or maybe it was confirmed somewhere, and conceptually embodied probably means that it wouldn’t ordinarily exist or be accessible, since conceptual embodiment is just using the Void to make things exist

[mild sphinx]

So it's a void created alt timeline? (1999)

[kindred spade]

Void voodoo, the void was discovered before wally.

And according to * Loid,

' The strands of Khra are merely Void-renderings of the chains of cause and effect. Conceptually embodied timelines.'

[mild sphinx]

What is that even supposed to mean

The Loid quote

[kindred spade]

Confirming the timeline thing.

Basically, timelines. void timelines.

see eternalism too! 😌 This void devilry is wicked stuff.

[mild sphinx]

Uggggghhhhh

Actually multiverse and time travel are both such tired-out and unhelpful story tropes that here I actually think they help negate each other a bit

I can just kinda set them out of the way in the same box

[kindred spade]

Well, where there's a multiverse, and eternalism, it naturally comes with diverse confluences of time to explore. Hence, it took the drifter to bail us out. I don't see why they'd negate one another — unless you deny the existence of time itself then oh boy, ontological negation of a fundament go brrr.

[obtuse gyro]

I mean, Warframe's lil shtick here isnt your Marvel's "What if" here.

The "multi-verse" isnt even a proper "multiverse"

its not like you can slide into a total and complete other universe here

[mild sphinx]

It's not called multiverse but that's literally what eternalism is

[obtuse gyro]

its not

like all Eternalism says is "time is a block"

[mild sphinx]

All other possible universes exist

Ye

[obtuse gyro]

note that not once did they say "all possible universes"

[mild sphinx]

Then what determines how big the block is

[kindred spade]

Multi-dimensional at best.

[obtuse gyro]

the block is just time

even drifter existing isnt a case of someone from another "universe" slipping into ours

he was manifested from an unrealised potential into our reality

didnt even reality hop, bro just spawned in

[mild sphinx]

Drifter always existed in the block, right?

[obtuse gyro]

"always existed"
Just like how you always existed

[mild sphinx]

Soooo he came from an alternate dimension/reality/whatever you want to call it

[kindred spade]

The co-real even.

[obtuse gyro]

no

he simply was realised into ours

his potential was there, but he just didnt exist in ours

[mild sphinx]

Fresh out the void then?

[kindred spade]

"im the you that didn't get saved."

[obtuse gyro]

The Zariman vessel, adrift for an unknown time within the Void, now acts as a containment field for unrealized possibilities.

One such possibility is an alternate version of the TENNO. This individual escaped into the Void on their own initiative, rather than being rescued and taken into the Origin System as the Tenno were. Within the Void they established a realm, ‘Duviri’, in which to live.

This individual, the DRIFTER, has now entered the Origin System.

^ the Drifter was realised into ours

[kindred spade]

Escaped INTO the void.

[obtuse gyro]

the time travel bit in warframe hasnt even been broached to a significant amount yet, so I dont see how we can make a value judgement of if its tired or not

[mild sphinx]

I mean time travel is a tired trope in general

[obtuse gyro]

Thats your opinion

[mild sphinx]

Yes

I feel like even a pretty good movie like Tenet still can't iron it out as smoothly as if they'd never used the trope. Ya know?

Also context for my multiverse bemoaning:

"Eternalism - the theory that the future and past are as real as the present; and can theoretically be accessed by "changing the frame" (of reference)[1]. Since making a choice cannot change a pre-existing future, it follows that all possible choice/chance events are simultaneously real in separate realities."
/
That's what I would consider to be a multi verse (I didn't say Omniverse, but tbh not that much different)

[obtuse gyro]

My issue with this is that "in separate realities" is something that youve added in

[kindred spade]

So basically.

[mild sphinx]

"added in"

Idk if we can send links. Warframe wiki, theories of time

[obtuse gyro]

Youre citing the wiki, made by someone like you or me. An unofficial source

Ill whip out the transcript, the actual source

[balmy storm]

The wiki is a notoriously dubious source on the lore side of things

[mild sphinx]

Ah k sry

Realize where I went wrong

[balmy storm]

They didnt escape into the void, they were already in the void and escaped into Duviri after unintentionally creating it

[balmy storm]

You’re good!
It’s a shame it isn’t as reliable as it should be

[mild sphinx]

Was getting my non canon "separate realities" impression from this

"correct. Versions of reality exist in which both parents die/survive"

This very easily gives people the wrong impression then

[kindred spade]

I'm literally reciting what the bit says.

[balmy storm]

🤷‍♀️ they were in the void and escaped to a cooler part of the void
So yeah still accurate

[obtuse gyro]

This is the actual quote.

The wiki writer threw in some goober stuff about "the pre-existing future" something thats not actually in the Theories of Time section. As such they've created the "separate reality" stuff to compensate

In the time its taken me to type this out you've figure it out yourself lololol. But you get the idea

[kindred spade]

Drifter didn't get saved from the Zariman once it reappeared —

[balmy storm]

We don’t know if theirs reappeared, it appears it hasn’t as it’s stuck in island

[obtuse gyro]

Additionally, we see the "versions of reality" bit manifest in the existence of the Drifter, who is described as a (previously) unrealised possibility, which thus implies a departure from the stereotypical "multiverse" type stuff, like we see in Marvel/DC comics or their respective movie verses

For all intents and purposes, these other "real" realities are not in effect or in play unless some goober manifests those possibilities in our own reality

[kindred spade]

O, relativity of simultaneity, so help me. 😔

[acoustic grail]

Leaked 1999 weapon:

[bronze glen]

That's an AoE weapon

[tawdry socket]

Fandom wiki moment

Honestly it kinda disturbs me that it's hosted on Fandom with seemingly no backup

[bronze glen]

It's still very very helpful

[tawdry socket]

https://youtu.be/qcfuA_UAz3I

A better and more concise way of describing fandom issues than I have time to write myself

[nocturne kiln]

Oh boy, what's going on in here today?

[mild sphinx]

I made the honest mistake of calling eternalism a multiverse trope lol

[nocturne kiln]

Mmm... multiverse describes multiple copies of space. This is more about time.

[mild sphinx]

The real possible alternate reality that's not actually manifested yet stuff is kinda hard to pick up first shake

[nocturne kiln]

Well, that's the thing. It's not an alternate reality

It's the same reality in which alternate choices were made

It's like walking up to the fork in a path. Both branches are real, you just have to choose one. The option of going down the other path is no less real though and the path remains within the same universe

[mild sphinx]

And the branches don't stop existing once a choice is made, or do they?

[nocturne kiln]

It's the theoretical temporal-physics version of saying you can have your cake and eat it too. Both are possible but only one is real at a given moment. Schrodinger's timeline paradox, if you will

[mild sphinx]

This actually makes sense lol, at least for what the story is going for lol

Thanks

[nocturne kiln]

Do you put on your red shoes or your blue shoes today? You put on either pair of shoes and you didn't put on the other ones. Only one choice is real though. It's like setting up the timeline as a math problem but with a missing number that needs to be filled in.

The equation remains the same and you can possibly get different answers while the possibility for those alternate answers remains

[mild sphinx]

Then for time travel Albrecht stuff, does his new version of 1999 tag out the real historical version for its spot in reality?

[nocturne kiln]

Yes and no. We have the 1999 where Albright didn't travel to and events lead up to the result of Albright timetraveling. Then we have WARFRAME 1999 where he has traveled to, which is existing at the same time because the outcome hasn't been decided yet and so we can possibly mitigate the effect it would have on the timeline. This is more of the average time travel paradox stiff than eternalism

Though through eternalism, both approaches are possible. 🙂

We could also have the dragon ball approach where changing things results in a new major branch of the timeline that can be traveled to and from by our timeline branch

I'm not 100% sure about the approach as the content hasn't been released yet

There's also the fact that the man in the wall made the Operator and Drifter anomalies in Eternalism by condensing thier total eternalism potential down into just them. There are no other versions of them through eternalism.

So many exciting variables to take into consideration

Mind you, according to the story, no other tenno have this deal with the man in the wall, to my understanding. They're the one who made the choice with him that resulted in all tenno getting thier powers. Someone who can correct me on that though is welcome to do so

[nova harness]

Canonically whoever the player is during the quest made the deal

[nocturne kiln]

Right, referred here to as "the Operator"

[obtuse gyro]

yea, only one is real real, the other is just real

[nocturne kiln]

Right right right. Which is why ordis only recognizes you as the Operator and not other players

[obtuse gyro]

I mean, he is your caretaker, he doesnt care about the other operators

[nocturne kiln]

I still want to know why he's so sensitive about jade...

[nova harness]

Ordis does know about other Tenno existing

[nova harness]

She’s a Warframe and Ordis cares about Warframes

[nocturne kiln]

I supose will transition my question as to why he cares about warframes so much

[nova harness]

Well Parvos was trying to use Jade for himself

[rotund quartz]

Every time line is a real one and it exist u just can’t experience it

[obtuse gyro]

I suspect its because Jade's fate and his past life's fate share the similarity in "done dirty by the orokin and turned into a tool"

[rotund quartz]

And ur own timeline can be reserved by a crazy guy time traveling back

Reversed *

[obtuse gyro]

reversed? thats not what's been shown

like the present is still there, albrecht hasnt reversed jack

[rotund quartz]

He thinks he failed to save her

[rotund quartz]

We reversed the drifter timeline kinda

[obtuse gyro]

no we didnt, where did you get that from

what do you even mean by reversed

[rotund quartz]

Saving tenzero

[obtuse gyro]

we didnt save the zariman whatsoever

[rotund quartz]

The Tenno

[obtuse gyro]

Thats... not reversing anything?

again, what do you mean by reverse?

[rotund quartz]

Not exactly reversing resetting or offsetting the due path

[obtuse gyro]

additionally, we didnt even change anything in drifter's timeline

[rotund quartz]

The handshake echoed through several timelines and time segments

[obtuse gyro]

the handshake was part of the Operator's timeloop

[rotund quartz]

It’s not a loop

Never was

[hearty pendant]

Ballas trapped the operator in a loop of their memories until the drifter "freed" them, no?

[valid jolt]

It was. The Computer next to Loid confirms it

[obtuse gyro]

The Tenno’s personal timeline has been disrupted. Knowing he cannot kill the Tenno, Ballas has opted to imprison them within their own history. The Tenno will be unable to escape this loop without the paradoxical intervention of an outside force.
Try again

[rotund quartz]

Well my bad

[rotund quartz]

Where is this from

[obtuse gyro]

https://www.warframe.com/news/operator-report

[rain otter]

Recap PC

[valid jolt]

I think the handshake made every other version of our Operator across different realities non existent(except Drifter)

[nocturne kiln]

So, the way I understand the drifter timeline, is that the operator created that alternative through escapism, using the tales of duviri as a basis for a preferred reality than his current one, much in the way someone going through severe ptsd will invent an alternate reality through thier imagination. Just... you know, with the powers of the void fueling that process

[rain otter]

It's also in the whispers hub.

[valid jolt]

It’s in the Sanctum next to human Loid

[rain otter]

Maybe?

[nocturne kiln]

Ayy!

The man has receipts!

Good job Shroomy!

[rotund quartz]

Not all just a number of em

[rotund quartz]

Which part of the new war was happening in loop

[obtuse gyro]

all the operator in the zariman sequences

save for after the handshake

[rotund quartz]

My take is that the handshake transferred the indifference into all those dying animation Tenno and those are these

And yea into lotus aswell

My crazy theory

[obtuse gyro]

crazy theory indeed

very crazy

[nova harness]

Too crazy

[rotund quartz]

Tenno still don’t remember what happened on when they slaughtered the origin

[hearty pendant]

i'm trying to not shut down your theory completely but i cannot see how those connect

[rotund quartz]

And natal has seen the indifferences other face

[obtuse gyro]

thanks for putting it nicely

[obtuse gyro]

that was always the case before the spooky double handshake

[rotund quartz]

Yea

[nova harness]

What other face?

[rotund quartz]

She says in ropa dialogue

[rotund quartz]

Idk she says so and doesn’t comment when drifter asks again at the end of the new war

Just says “nothing”

[obtuse gyro]

those are two different events tho

its not like Drifter/operator are asking her to clarify her ropalolyst statement

[rotund quartz]

Still crazy*

[rotund quartz]

They ask what did she see* iirc

[obtuse gyro]

thats not asking her to clarify her ropalolyst statement

[rotund quartz]

True

[rotund quartz]

What did they ask about

Still gray areas

[hearty pendant]

the massive wall that flew out of the void portal?

[rotund quartz]

I think they saw it too

And lotus was using void powers on both sides idk y

[obtuse gyro]

they were literally asking about what she saw at the end, not about her ropalolyst statement

[nova harness]

Drifter/Operator didn’t see it otherwise they wouldn’t have asked

[rotund quartz]

Ah true

[obtuse gyro]

Its like if I went to watch Inside out 2, I tell you.

And then we both watch How to Make Millions before grandma dies
and you ask me "what did I see"

Im not going to answer about Inside out 2

[rotund quartz]

Still this is kinda on the back of my mind along side Lia white specters

[obtuse gyro]

the lua specters have no lore

theyre just there for some reason

[hearty pendant]

they're vibing

[rotund quartz]

This pic

[obtuse gyro]

those are not lua specters

[rotund quartz]

😐

[nova harness]

Those are Tenno she is controlling

[rotund quartz]

I’m losing brain cells

[nova harness]

And that was a vision of the past

[rotund quartz]

Yes

Still the eyes in that is weird

[hearty pendant]

is it known how Erra "survived" that?
he's not exactly a reliable narrator during prelude

[nova harness]

It’s not weird if you realise gave the vision

[rotund quartz]

When mitw transferred inside us it was white

And when we went to check peep on ballad and erra it was kinda black

[obtuse gyro]

white?

what are your colour settings man

[nova harness]

He didn’t transfer inside us in this cinematic

[rotund quartz]

That would explain

Not there

When he says u owe me

He transferred inside kinda idk how

[nova harness]

The how is he’s the Man in the Wall

Doesn’t need an explanation past he did

[rotund quartz]

https://youtu.be/dSowuTgJ8q4?si=eP-zkgOLVhTiQ0YW

Here too he transfers

If he can do that y doesn’t he just take over

And destroy origin system as albrect says

It’s all murky waters

[rotund quartz]

Also this

[obtuse gyro]

well for starters thats not void powers

[rotund quartz]

What was it

[obtuse gyro]

regular shields

[rotund quartz]

😐

[rotund quartz]

It’s void powers

U can see it in the animation

[obtuse gyro]

on who's authority?

[obtuse gyro]

???

pray tell what colour is it

[rotund quartz]

It has the same glowy animation when we do wellspring

[obtuse gyro]

... wellspring? really?

[rotund quartz]

And the archon shard ephemera

[obtuse gyro]

the non-shield?

the archon shards arent even void what

[rotund quartz]

😐

[nova harness]

Archon Shards are Sentient tech

[rotund quartz]

I meant the animation but yea

Y’all miss the point a lil too much

[obtuse gyro]

your point is weak my guy

[rotund quartz]

Yeah lotus with shield makes sense

[rotund quartz]

Look at it

[obtuse gyro]

different colours, not to mention, that shield doesnt tally with wellspring

[rotund quartz]

That’s her energy color

Shield really dude

[obtuse gyro]

yes, thats a shield

[rotund quartz]

Imma take off

[static steppe]

Wait

Is hunhow an MPreg?

[wicked iron]

Sentients don't have biological sexes. They reproduce asexually via fission.

[prime lantern]

Are you trying to imply the sentient lady is utilizing void energy

[gilded valley]

Is it the strange black goo in the corvexes?

[wicked iron]

Unclear, since that seems to be used to create fragments which are just controlled portions of the main Sentient that creates them. My guess is that the fission process looks/works differently.

[gilded valley]

New sentients when they are born:

https://tenor.com/view/kitten-scream-cat-scream-cat-kitten-scream-gif-4797886964431233753

[left slate]

I like to call the ones that come out of the black sluge goobers

[nocturne kiln]

Hey, a PC player whipped up an alternative Jade design. What do you guys think about this?

[prime lantern]

It looks like the belly's gone

Which I think is the point

[rain otter]

Weak Is what I think.

A weak person made this.

[nocturne kiln]

Ah, so not an opinion about the design then. just it's creator

[rain otter]

🙂

I actually just saw jade's animation sets the other day and I love how sassy her noble is.

Just serving it's great.

[shell vessel]

no joke way too sassy

feels like an entitled single mom lmao

[rain otter]

Women need to be Sassier.

We need more MEAN women.

People are too nice to all y'all.

[shell vessel]

why tf

world should be more peaceful and you talkin bout mean xd

[rain otter]

People have been too nice to you if you think sassy is bad.

[shell vessel]

I think any attitude that radiates negative energy for no reason at all, and entitledness + selfishness is bad

sassy = why you talk to me, im more worth than you

[rain otter]

Sassy is fun.

And camp and I love it.

[shell vessel]

Agree, but fun isnt always good xd

[rain otter]

Also I really do think people are too nice to people they should just be mean to.

But anyway.

[shell vessel]

you actin tough.

you havent seen mean people yet

I get what u mean

but I would never say ppl should be more mean

[rain otter]

Don't tell me my experiences.

[shell vessel]

What youre saying already tells enough xd

[rain otter]

But yeah women should be meaner cuz they are too nice to Terrible people so I always support sassy.

[nocturne kiln]

You can be sassy without being mean. its just swagger

[nocturne kiln]

Would love to hear more opinions though

[shell vessel]

I think more options are always better

every1 can choose how they like

[nocturne kiln]

Agreed. Id love for an auxiliary toggle or an alternative mesh like this. The forums have been on fire for over a weak with people asking for the same thing

[sharp karma]

Hey guys, what ya’ll talking about?

[nocturne kiln]

Someone came up with an alternative mesh for Jade

The section of the forums for feedback about jade have been very busy with people asking for something like this for over a week

[obtuse gyro]

KIV: Savathun. Always sassy, never mean about it

[rain otter]

I still think the jade without a bumb is like

That's what makes you uncomfortable? Each frame like touches on a different uncomfortable thing.

Like Nidus is a fleshy Infested mass. Grendel is gluttony. Harrow is fanaticism.

I feel like disliking this one just cuz she has a bigger stomach and like a verison of her had a kid is like the weakest stuff ever.

Like we have a frame that doesn't have a face cuz a couple that she was with hated seeing her as a warframe after accidentally killing her.

[nocturne kiln]

The forum has featured a lot of reasons, from trauma to phobia to personal preference. Im in the latter category, simply not wanting to appear pregnant. Noone has been advocating for the removal of her aesthetic, just asking for an alternative we can choose to have for ourselves

[rain otter]

But couldn't you use that for any other warframe?

Why this one? Idk it feels very like "gamer bro" coded idk.

[nocturne kiln]

There's a place on the forums specifically for feedback about jade. We're giving our feedback.

[nocturne kiln]

I could ask the same, politely of course. Should it really matter if someone else wants to have an alternative while you enjoy your current fashionframe?

[rain otter]

It's more like

Why now? Why this frame?

[nocturne kiln]

Well, its the first frame like this. its her release. I'd argue that there will never be a better time to have this opinion to avoid a "but you were fine wit hher before?" type of response.

[rain otter]

Lotus like has a whole thing about being like barren and the tenno being her suroget kids and stuff. Idk just feels like really really werid stuff like that only comes up now.

[nocturne kiln]

There's a whole bunch of forum pages about this. you should join us some time

[rain otter]

Like dagath or nidus or Grendel or

Idk this just seems like the same people that got upset at the pregnant spider women in the spider versem

[nocturne kiln]

https://forums.warframe.com/forum/1972-jade-new-weapons-feedback/

[rain otter]

They where also wrong.

[prime lantern]

I stay away from the forums it's generally a cesspool of garbage

[nocturne kiln]

wrong you say. about what?

[prime lantern]

Spider people can't be x

[rain otter]

Too scary.

[thick jolt]

Aside from the people with trauma I really couldnt care less about the other opinions

[nocturne kiln]

I wont disagree. I will say that ive been seeing people trying to have honest, good faith discussion about this

[prime lantern]

Weirdos also complained about a spider person that was on the heavier side

The spider car was fine

[rain otter]

I dont think this is a good faith discussion from most of them.

[prime lantern]

And spider t rex

[nocturne kiln]

Thats fair, as its your opinion just like they have thiers. Ive personally spoken to a couple who have experienced loss and dont like the reminder. there was another player who was a veteran who had pregnant women used against his squad while he served.

[rain otter]

Like I feel like things should make you uncomfortable. Like if a pregnant body makes you uncomfortable deal with that.

Unpack your issues.

[prime lantern]

But a heavy spider man that's just too far in my series about a group of men women cars robots and t rexs with spider powers going across dimensions trying to stop a man made of holes

[near rune]

I think this is the first time I can remember that people have a genuine problem with a warframe's body type. I'm really not sure what to make of the discussion.

[rain otter]

Yea

That's why I think it's bad faith.

[nocturne kiln]

Well, I think thats a valid opinion. It is the first time, so Im personally advocating for civil discussion about it.

[near rune]

I try not to assume anyone is acting in bad faith unless it's pretty blatant, which I don't think this is.

One can always impute dishonest motives but it doesn't make the conversation more constructive.

[rain otter]

I hate the "be civil" stuff.

Cus sometimes you shouldn't be.

[nocturne kiln]

One peice I can give as evidence of an honest discussion is that people are asking for an option of her appearance, not removal. We know some people enjoy her current appearance, its just that we dont.

[rain otter]

Like I don't have to "hear someone out" every time like someone makes a bad point idk.

[prime lantern]

Quite frankly I am indifferent to what happens

I don't find myself playing jade much in the future so idrc

[shell vessel]

all yourr promoting all the time is anarchy. we get it, youre a barbaric uncivilized anarchist. stop promoting it

[nocturne kiln]

Being civil usually lends an apearance of validity to your argument. You dont need to get mad if you let discussion points speak for themselves

[rain otter]

Not an anarchist. I am friends with some.

[shell vessel]

thing is, the kid is already delivered

and all the other warframes arent delivering it seema

so the belly kinda has a lore issue idk

[nocturne kiln]

So, the tone of the conversation we have here is pretty much how it's been on the forums for the past week. some want an option to choose from. Some people dont see the point. others are undecided

[rain otter]

Some arguments are so insulting so vile that even giving any ground to it even entertaining it gives it the time of day it doesn't deserve.

[nocturne kiln]

Well, we're trying to have discussion, not an argument. I'd prefer to have a polite discourse about it

[near rune]

There are times, for sure, when I can agree with you. But for better or worse, "being civil" is one of the rules DE has for this server, and all their fora generally.

[rain otter]

Fair.

I just was responding to like "you should always try to be".

[bronze glen]

What is going on here fellers

[nocturne kiln]

It usually ends in more productive discussion than not. productive discussion is my goal here, as it would prevent my viewpoint from being discarded out of hand. I msure noone would be listening to me if I was being unreasonable

[rain otter]

My point about Jade is i think it's a very manufactured outrage from many bad faith people about her looking pregnant. I won't say everyone that dislikes jade's design is but I would say many.

[thick jolt]

Nothing worthwhile

[shell vessel]

how does that matter in any way to the discussion

[rain otter]

True.

[nocturne kiln]

Hey Pokedude. Someone came up with an alternative mesh for Jade. We're discussing the pospect of wether or not an optional appearance would be worth it or not for the people who want it

[shell vessel]

no one cares if its bad faith or nkt

[rain otter]

I do.

[shell vessel]

good for u

[rain otter]

Fruit from a poison tree and all.

[bronze glen]

Alternate mesh as in the Voidshell skins?

[nocturne kiln]

Kind of. Ill grab the pictures

[thick jolt]

Nope

[bronze glen]

Hell yeah dude, give me that carbon fibre womb

[bronze glen]

Ah to make the womb smaller

I just think it's people tending to forget that Jade was pregnant and she wasn't fat or anything 😭

[rain otter]

Yeah.

[rain otter]

I mean I also think it's weridos not wanting to see any pregnant people.

[bronze glen]

Wombs can grow pretty large and that's the whole point of Jade as a Warframe

[nocturne kiln]

Basically. the feedback for her on the forums have been pretty active for the past week over wether or not DE should make an auxiliary toggle or alternative skin for the people who are having issues. Not once has the topic of removing her current appearance has come up though

[bronze glen]

No, it's mostly gooners who go "mu waifu"

[rain otter]

Pregnant people exist.

Idk what to tell um. They do a lot of stuff.

They work out and like do whatever.

[nocturne kiln]

I've provided some evidence to the contrary

[bronze glen]

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with Jade, just people butthurt over a female Warframe being pregnant

If being fat was the issue, then they'd ask for a buff Grendel Skin

[rain otter]

That's what I said.

[thick jolt]

The reason i dislike the whole convo is because of people who just don't find jade pretty enough or whatever using people with actual trauma as a shield

[rain otter]

I also talked about dagath having no face cuz of her messed up back story.

[bronze glen]

Plus the usable Jade isn't pregnant

[nocturne kiln]

Its been more about appealing to DE than trying to convince other players.

[bronze glen]

It's more like she's storing a ball of energy

[rain otter]

Yeah.

That's also what I said.

[nocturne kiln]

She has a pregnant motif. the appearance is enough to cause unease in some people for a variety of reasons

[bronze glen]

Trauma angle I can see but then again, there's far more traumatic things in Warframe. Like losing your mom thrice.

[rain otter]

Okay what you are proposing feels on the level of like "can I turn off the gay scenes in whispers in the walls" like it's not exactly the same but it feels like the same vibe.

[nocturne kiln]

I'd like to offer for you to go and see for yourself the problems people are having on the forums if you'd like to

[rain otter]

No I'm good.

I think I won't do that.

[nocturne kiln]

I meant it as an open invitation than for any one person

[bronze glen]

Fellas, let's just end it before it gets too political. Jade is very pretty and I can see the trauma angle to some extent but this will get too political

Instead, let's talk about whether the Operator can tranference into Sirion

[rain otter]

Sure. I need to stop having this conversation anyway cuz i will just keep going. Lmao.

[nocturne kiln]

All Ill say is that I find it a little unusual that one side wants options for the community to choose from while the people disagree with them have a "deal with it" attitude that doesnt condone coexistance of preference

[prime lantern]

It's a consciousness being

[rain otter]

So is umbra.

[prime lantern]

So yes

[bronze glen]

So is Umbra, no?

[rain otter]

Yee.

[prime lantern]

Yea that was my point

[bronze glen]

Man it'd be funny

[prime lantern]

If consciousn yes to Transference

[bronze glen]

Stalker is changing diapers, operator gets into Sirion, poops on Stalker and then leaves

[nocturne kiln]

Stalker also has a personality. He can be used in duviri.

[prime lantern]

Okay?

[rain otter]

Okay I think Sirlion will be his own character. He might age fast though.

[bronze glen]

I will now transfer into Sirion, walk on two legs and then just fall down and act dead

[rain otter]

The duviri Stalker is a different one than the one we know.

[bronze glen]

Time to traumatise Stalker

[rain otter]

Lul no.

He's trying his best.

[bronze glen]

Sirion will now lift Hate and swing it around

[bronze glen]

And I'm a Monster

[thick jolt]

Just delivering some vindication, checked the feedback forums about jade, two things:
More posts talk about their abilities
The largest post about her appearance doesnt even break 200 replies despite over 4.4k views

[shell vessel]

His name is orion