tennogen-creation-discussion

[celest nest]

He's kinda unique in this regard

[edgy whale]

so what does that mean as my possibilities?

[celest nest]

Well, you can flare up his neck like fish breathing holes

And give him like a catfish face, but very stylized I guess?

But he's really difficult to work with, very very beginner not friendly

[edgy whale]

can i extend beyond the shoulders in some way

[celest nest]

No, that would be encroaching onto his body rig

[edgy whale]

ok

[celest nest]

I'd say stick to this area, and helmet itself can be wider. Like mine I guess

[edgy whale]

uh oh

did i insult your work?

[celest nest]

No, why?

[edgy whale]

nvm

the moloch skin i meant

[celest nest]

Yeah

[edgy whale]

it just needs a good counterpart

alignment wise

same legendarium

[celest nest]

I don't mind, you can call my works whatever you want. I won't run away and cancel you twitter

I'm perfectly fine with it

[edgy whale]

its not bad,. its just too scary

[celest nest]

No I get it

[edgy whale]

i like dopey things

grendels a meme he needs a memey helmet

make him cute instead of uggy

thats a big reason dont like playing him

[celest nest]

You could maybe give him a fishbowl helmet

[edgy whale]

thats dumb

[celest nest]

With like, a catfish inside

It can be cool looking

[edgy whale]

do you wanna split

i mean you already have experience with grendel

[celest nest]

No no, I'm working right now on a bunch of my own works, sorry

[edgy whale]

dang

well can i continue to ask for help

btw i have no plan on 3d modeling this

im just concept arting it with enough detail for someone to just make it happen

[celest nest]

Sure, I'm available all day, every day, except for monday, sunday, friday, thursday, wednsday, blerday, honnicula, and rotary day

[edgy whale]

lol

ooh are you jewish?

[celest nest]

I'm like 50% jewish

[edgy whale]

oh thats awesome

[celest nest]

I'm fake jewish. My brother's side of family is, mine is I don't even know

[edgy whale]

so you actually understand what im referencing

well i mean you named it moloch

[celest nest]

Yes, you want a skin that is not made to eat children

[edgy whale]

exactly

hes to eat pussies

sorry thats a bad word

[celest nest]

I don't mind

[edgy whale]

okay

ok

so i dont think this is bad, possibly

idk how i would do the other side

[celest nest]

Just warning again that Grendel is really tricky to work with, and he's not very popular, so chances of your concept getting a 3d designer are doubly low, because they might get scared away

[edgy whale]

whats the trouble with the head though?

[celest nest]

I'd stylize it a bit more and make it a more interesting shape

[edgy whale]

this will make him popular

i want it rounded in some way though

[celest nest]

He would be popular if only DE made katamari damaci augment for his ball, instead of "You jump fast"

[edgy whale]

make spikes come out like goron link

im not sure if the shape i have in mind is super obvious from this angle

ill try to make a side view version

can you send me a picture of grendels model on his side?

and also sorry to ask again, where do the complications come in in respects to just the helmet

maybe without a head with the model btw

actually i might need a bone for reference on the movement

but yeah the helm is actually slightly lurching forward but you cant tell

it slants off the back ever so slightly like a shark head

i realize it might look from the picture like half an egg or half a squished thin egg

[celest nest]

If it was up to me, I'd stylize it much heavier

[edgy whale]

but its more like a shark head lurching forward about 15 degrees

[celest nest]

Maybe kinda like this

[edgy whale]

i like that kind of

[celest nest]

Kinda like fish bowl

[edgy whale]

ey

[celest nest]

And helmet would be inside

[edgy whale]

eh he looks too alien like

[celest nest]

Yeah but it's Warframe aesthetic

You kinda want to stick to it pretty close and not make obvious fish

[edgy whale]

i wish it was easier to make it thicker on the bottom than on the top without complications

i think warframes aesthetic isnt so much one thing

some are more infested looking

[celest nest]

It might seem really wide, but it's pretty strict per faction

[edgy whale]

that looks more corpusy i want to make infested looking

[celest nest]

TO a point where we need to know specific lines that each faction use, and which they would never use

[edgy whale]

rounded edges, wierd design

factions?

[celest nest]

Each faction has special design doc

[edgy whale]

explain

like in words or some sciency math bs?

i think one thing about infested stuff is it seems to not be symmetrical

[celest nest]

Not quite, more like "Here's what this faction uses in their unique look, and here's what they DO NOT use ever"

[edgy whale]

so im thinking two eyes on one side, and one on the other

[celest nest]

Infested can be symmetrical

[edgy whale]

maybe one whisker is very very slightly longer

[celest nest]

Infested keywords for faction design are "lumpy, malformed, horror, odd sillhouete, unnatural", but they're not strict bugs, nor they are strict corpses

[edgy whale]

i like those

[celest nest]

And then we have document on their design elements, what lines should look, what plates should look, which materials they use, which materials they do not use, how they react t o other factions, how their emissives should look like, stuff like that

[edgy whale]

my definition of lumpy would be wierd though

like just the angles are off and no hard edges

so say theres two symmetrical fins

[celest nest]

For example, there's one super important line to infested faction, and it's this

[edgy whale]

what does that refer to

wtf is hydroid classified as

[celest nest]

it's a design language shape that is present in virtually every single infested element

[edgy whale]

cause hes my favorite design wise

[celest nest]

Hydroid is tenno

[edgy whale]

i just hate his moves

[celest nest]

More organic, but tenno.

Ye he sucks.

[edgy whale]

oh ok, so thats what i want

oh yeah and tenno are more japanese based right?

[celest nest]

If you look at my grendel's back for example

[edgy whale]

the koi is legendary

[celest nest]

You can see this shape repeated pretty much everywhere

[edgy whale]

oh so hes infestedf

[celest nest]

tenno are sorta like futuristic ninja

[edgy whale]

dang so i cant give him a tenno-ish look

[celest nest]

Their keywords are "simple, clean, swooping, aerodynamic, high tech, elegant, curvy, fast, without excess"

[edgy whale]

hydroid is not aerodynamic

[celest nest]

(and then there's Hyldrin who looks like Andre the Giant ate a T90)

[edgy whale]

very curvy though thats why i like him

i think my head will work

[celest nest]

Tenno have a lot of shapes as infested actually, but severely toned down

[edgy whale]

it just needs more subtle lumpification

[celest nest]

Infested are basically like tenno fully out of control

[edgy whale]

very subtle

the fins are not edged

they look blunt rather than sort of shark

[celest nest]

You could turn Hydroid into a fishj

[edgy whale]

well like i said his moves suck

hes so boring

im not talking about stats when i say things suck btw

i place the fun of a frame over its power

so far atlas is the most fun tho

[celest nest]

I know, for aframe that is a literal liquid, he's really boring CC frame

While he could, for example, transform his arms into water blades or something

[edgy whale]

i only have a few frames though

oh yeah man

or just water flails

like he whoops em around boom boom smack

but i think grendel could use some cool variation

and i dont think aquaticness could be out of the question

particularly when it focuses around the theme of gluttony within the ocean

[celest nest]

He's really round and could work with some acquatic theme

[edgy whale]

yes

[celest nest]

like a angler fish

[edgy whale]

like a whale shark

angler fish is a deciever

grendel is right in your face

sharks

he runs up to problems to stop them

[edgy whale]

omg

what of a blob fish

well anyway

[celest nest]

That's Barrel eye fish

[edgy whale]

lemme make the koi head a bit more lompy

but yeah

can i have a side view of grendel without a head?

[celest nest]

(white is shoulder)

[edgy whale]

ty

im gonna make a basic view of the original idea just cause the front view doesnt give it justice

can you get it with color?

oh waitr

is the front on the right?

[celest nest]

yes

The little tit-spike is his front

he has sorta concave front, which allows him to roll in on himself

[edgy whale]

oh

so is that where the head complexity comes @celest nest?

cause what was invisible from the angle i gave you remedies that quite well

[celest nest]

For ball mode you can just shove his head into shoulders

As long as your head is round-ish and convex, it will work

But, btw, you also need to model ball form

[edgy whale]

how so?

oh also, can retexturing the model mean adding scales?

just wondering

[celest nest]

of course

[edgy whale]

what of making froggo feet?

[celest nest]

If it means changing the shape itself, no

[edgy whale]

dang

i know infested are not supposed to have metalic textures, but what of biological metalicism?

[celest nest]

THey can have metallic parts

As long as they obviously overtook something metallic. Besides, metallic look can occur in nature

it's not "metal" metal, but it's close enough and looks nice

I'm a big beetle fan

[devout forge]

With all of the infested skins you got, not surprised

[celest nest]

Beetles are nice

[edgy whale]

i like beetles

crickets r my favorite though

very cute

legitimately cute insects crickets are

very rare

@celest nest i have a question

if i made a very nice cel shaded 3d model of the dag gadol helmet and the meatball, like high quality for a cel shaded game, would you take it and make it all textured and warframe quality for 50 percent of the profits?

with pretty striated irises and stuff?

[celest nest]

Me personally probably not, I'm doing my own stuff for nwo

[edgy whale]

ok

would it be much easier to find someone if i already made the basic model?

cel shaded

[celest nest]

Cel shaded model is a side branch tho, it won't be too much use. A really really good illustration, however, would help a modeller more.

3/4, profile, head on

[edgy whale]

whats 3/4

[edgy whale]

hmmm

[celest nest]

It's when face is turned 45 degrees towards camera

[edgy whale]

i can see how that would be useful

ok

i might have to make a voxel model just for me

to make it easier to determine what angles look like

[celest nest]

Do you have Blender?

[edgy whale]

no

i do cubes

[celest nest]

You should get Blender, it's free

You can do cuboidals in Blender

And it also has grease pencil, a feature that allows you to draw 3D models

[edgy whale]

can you import .vox from elsewhere

then smush clay onto it

so to speak

[celest nest]

Hm

Let me check

[edgy whale]

i made these hats

not the dudes but i could have

[celest nest]

No, but you can import vox models with this addon

https:/ /github.com/RichysHub/MagicaVoxel-VOX-importer

[edgy whale]

oh rad

thats what i use

[celest nest]

Blender has a toooooon of addons

[edgy whale]

then can i add smush onto it?

[celest nest]

Myes, you could add some resolution to it and then go and sculpt on it

As long as it's a 3D object and as long as it... exists, you can sculpt or box model it.

However, if you were to seriously go into 3D, I'd recommend approaching it somewhat seriously too by learning basics of Blender

[edgy whale]

ok so would that be just for me or could the artist use it?

[celest nest]

All DE and tennogen artists work with Zbrush, but it's a bit, you know, pricey.

[edgy whale]

i saw

[celest nest]

You could just share the file with artist and you both can work on it

[edgy whale]

oh cool

i think ill do the .vox thing though because the exactness of it makes me morecomfortable

i get stressed out with analogue kind of stuff

with cubes i know for a fact when i did something to the best of my ability

im very self critical

oh so what i could do is start with a low resolution of cubes, and do the best of my ability then each sit down double the resolution and clean it to the best of my ability

so i can keep myself sane by taking it slow

until its extremely detailed

then i smooth it out

@celest nest would that work?

[celest nest]

That's general workflow for professional work too.

Start with something low resoltuion and then slowly build it up

Like I can start with this

Then add a bit of resolution and start adding shapes

Then more reoslution and start laying out medium shapes

And when done with medium shapes, you go into detail

But it all starts with a cube. Or a sphere. Or some other primitive shape.

[edgy whale]

cool

[celest nest]

You have to just slowly iterate between resolutions

Some people plop a model in the middle of the canvas and immedaitely give it like 20 million polygons from the get go.

Very big mistake. Not only it will make it extremely difficult t o introduce (and work on) larger shapes, but it will also make you subconsciously want to zoom in more and work on detailing, while having no medium or large shapes

[edgy whale]

so my idea is good?

[celest nest]

Well, if you import a blocky model and start slowly building up shapes on it, not going too high resolution from the get go, it could be good.

(i'd still insist on learning the basics of blender before going into character development tho)

[spark condor]

I remember I was doing some sketches and stuff on paper for some syandana ideas they’re not that great atm but I could show them anyway

If I still have the photos

[celest nest]

The more the merrier. Did bot just timed Goob out?

[spark condor]

I don’t know

And btw Vulbjorn love your skins and stuff they’re very well done

[celest nest]

Thanks

[spark condor]

I wish I was a decent artist though I’d love to have a syandana that I sketch to be in the game

[celest nest]

No one is born a yeenius artist tho. I'm sure you can be decent and above decent with some determination, time spent practising, and copious amounts of coffee.

[spark condor]

I’m not the biggest fan of coffee

But I have basic sketches of ideas I had for Syandanas

[edgy whale]

vulbjorn was that bulb head thing yours?

[celest nest]

Which bulb head thing

[edgy whale]

if so, i can recognize your style

the alien thing you posted earlier

sorry

[celest nest]

Alien

[celest nest]

Which, where did I post. Let me find it

[edgy whale]

this

[celest nest]

Oh

Yeah I quickly sketched it

[spark condor]

Ooh that looks cool

[celest nest]

to show the fishbowl design

[spark condor]

Is that fair Lavos

[celest nest]

No, it's Gremdel

[edgy whale]

yeah i notice aspects of our art styles that are polar opposites

[spark condor]

For*

Ah

[celest nest]

You're free to steal it if you want btw

[spark condor]

I like it

Who me?

[edgy whale]

you use fine wiry insectoid details

i prefer rounded bulbous styles

[celest nest]

I mean you both are free to steal it

[edgy whale]

like a worm or a toaf

toad

[celest nest]

I do like rounded bulbous shapes too tho

[spark condor]

Why don’t you collaborate on it and do a hybrid of your ideas

[edgy whale]

he doesnt want to

[celest nest]

Nah, Goob just wanted a fish helmet so I quickly sketched one

[edgy whale]

that said i feel like we should work together

[celest nest]

I already made one Grendel and let me tell you

[edgy whale]

or against eachother

[celest nest]

One is enough for me. His mesh is absurd to work with

[edgy whale]

in a strange yin yang fashion

[spark condor]

I’d be happy to collaborate with you both I’d love to design a cosmetic

[edgy whale]

what are you able to do?

can you do modeling and meshies and whatevs?

[spark condor]

Well I have these basic sketches on paper of ideas for syandanas

I don’t have a laptop or anything

[edgy whale]

lemme see

[spark condor]

But I have these

[edgy whale]

we might be able to do an interesting work cycle maybe

depending on your art style

[spark condor]

I don’t know why the photos aren’t loading into here

[edgy whale]

is your art super detailed and stuff?

like fine edges and stuff?

[spark condor]

Ah i think im good to go now

No not super detailed but it was only a start because I’d chosen to just get into it around that point

So im still pretty much a beginner

[edgy whale]

where is the picture

[spark condor]

Ugh I don’t know why it’s not compressing and loading in

This is gonna make me mad

Hmm let me in the showcase channel and see if it works there

[edgy whale]

oh is the file too big?

do you have an iphone

[spark condor]

Yeah I have an iPhone

Hmm would dming you both work do you know

[edgy whale]

it might

teehee your fancy city slicker camera is backfiring on you

[spark condor]

Ha ha 😂

You still there Vulbjorn

Gem inspired syandana after the idea of the gems in the open worlds

And a flower like Syandana which was my best sketch to date

[eternal galleon]

Hello Lads, its best to read this before drawing or 3D: https://www.warframe.com/steamworkshop/help/

[spark condor]

They’re not the best as I’m a beginner for sketching and doing anything for Tennogen in general

[eternal galleon]

If you want to make it into tennogen, you need to start slow and make a lot of personal designs while constantly reading warframe art language

You can get around this if you encounter very generous artist that can see your idea and can transform it into warframey thing

But that will pretty much lead into almost nothing since the artists like these are non existent, they will have to heavily transform your idea to get it into warframe and in turn you wont be that happy with it because its not as you wanted

the concept doesnt need to be super high detail etc. .

https://i.imgur.com/M39en2c.png

this is Kaz concept for quellor

its not very defined thing , yet it so enough what an 3D artist needs

You dont need shading or any intermediate drawing skills, but you need to present an warframe styled item with specific silhoutte, volume, large details etc. .

[thick root]

Yes, DE is very strict with the art language

[spark condor]

Well least I know I don’t need to be a top tier artist like bob ross 😂

[eternal galleon]

yes but dont be so naive, making an concept like above has its own qualities

knowing where to place interests, metals, shapes to make it odd yet cool looking (wf)

there is a lot of thought process in that but you dont need to be obssesed with details

fact is, for me for example, the better concept is in shading, detailing - harder it is to make it actually into the game

[spark condor]

Yeah I’m gonna keep repeating and adding more in to hopefully get it to a good stage

[eternal galleon]

my tip: start with fan art of certain itemss you like ingame

you can teach a lot from that how things go

its very often very natural that fanartists go to concept artists

[thick root]

Like yareli

[eternal galleon]

Yareli guy was very skilled to begin with

[celest nest]

Do NOT get me started on Yareli

Yeah, I'm here, I was afk

[spark condor]

Ah fair enough

[thick root]

Alright besides yareli, we got xaku too, which also was concepted by a fan artist

[proper tide]

Nova is also a community design iirc

[celest nest]

Yea

(but neither looks like a twitch vtuber)

[edgy whale]

im keen on incorperating elements of hydroids design into a grendel helm

uneven eyes, aquatic theme, jiggly bits being catfish whiskers

i hope it fits enough

[celest nest]

bahamut

Not FF one, the fish one

[edgy whale]

kinda

yeah the more i look at the picture i sent the more i see how i didnt effectively portray what i meant to portray

the profile will look much better but im away from my pc

then i will begin making it out of cubes

[edgy whale]

there are a few design changes but this is what i meant to portray

@celest nest

Dag Gadol

[rotund nova]

big Grendel Fishe

[edgy whale]

yes

i wish i had the skills to make him

im gonna try to make him out of cubes then cover him in playdough

but still i have to git gud

[gaunt flint]

So this is a concept of volt's helmet but still figuring out the skin

[wild zinc]

looks like the arrester helmet minus the horns

[gaunt flint]

Yeeaaah.... i think i got too inspired on rekkou's desgin

[wild zinc]

to be fair it's the best volt helmet in the game

[gaunt flint]

True bc its more futuristic look

[digital patio]

Reminds me of the reverb banshee helmet

Or whatever is the name of that relatively subtle banshee helmet that isn't tennogen

[gaunt flint]

Let me see whats the name of it

[digital patio]

I am not near a PC to see it, but it will be really obvious once you look at it

[gaunt flint]

Yeah irs reverb

I might get some inspiration from other games thats more cyberpunk

Or futuristic

[digital patio]

Interesting

[edgy whale]

@celest nest im def gonna need to go the super detailed drawring route

i really hope this can make it in it seems like a thing thats missing

it has an empty place for it in grendels customization so to speak

because

never forget the chonky fish

we cannot leave him to disappear into the sea of ancient memes

hes probably ded by now

we have to honor his memory

[celest nest]

He's a carp, he might very well be alive

Carps live often longer than humans

[edgy whale]

wow really?

vulbjorn do you like my general design idea?

to obviously be improved somewhat and added with detail?

grendel is round and plump so he needs a round and plump helmet as a choice

[celest nest]

I think it could work, but I also think it could benefit from a more interesting shape

[edgy whale]

did you see the profiles?

[celest nest]

These rght

[edgy whale]

yes

that looks pretty interesting to me

what u talkin boit

[celest nest]

THey look unusual, but their shape is pretty simple

It's essentially a quarter circle

[edgy whale]

thats the point though

its the missing style

every helm is very complicated and over detailed

[celest nest]

You can do bulbous designs and simultaneously have a pretty complex design

SOme are

But the silhouette itself

[edgy whale]

i mean grendel helms

i think its needed

[celest nest]

Your silhouette is basically this

[edgy whale]

theres got to be both simple and detailex helms

what angle is that

[celest nest]

Side

[edgy whale]

thats not right

[celest nest]

You can make a simple looking helmet. But you can also give it an interesting silhouette

[edgy whale]

ir lurches forward

like the rs shark helmet

one sec

[celest nest]

Here's your silhouette

Silhouette is the shape of something you see, when nothing else can be seen.

Often it's more important to keep silhouette interesting than to have the lit shape complex

[edgy whale]

thats still not right

why is your silhouette so tall

look how the head sits on the shoulders

yet at the same time its rounded and looks like a hood

it depends how you look at it

[edgy whale]

oh wait

[celest nest]

You can make an interesting silhouette while keeping the shape simple

[edgy whale]

that picture i sent is a perfectlu right angle

[celest nest]

Yes

That's your picture

You gave him this gigantic hood

[edgy whale]

the silhouette should show the tip overhang of the hood

yeah

i love hoods like ivaras

there needs to be a boy frame with a hood like that

i like it because it ends up looking like a mix between ivara and chromas helm

wondering what part the face is is interesting

you choose how you see it

is the face the glowing eyes or is the face the pattern of lights within and the fish being the hood of a hunter

[edgy whale]

oy

we really do have different styles

[celest nest]

You can do hood with this too

But it needs to be interesting to look at

[edgy whale]

its okay that we dont really likd eachothers work

we both need to exist

for true player choice in customization

i love simple silhouettes, we have plently of complex grendel helms

thats your forte

i like putting personality in a helmet

thats what im good at

ironic beauty or cuteness

[celest nest]

Like

Admittedly it looks a bit tooo much like a frog now

[edgy whale]

yours?

[celest nest]

yes

[edgy whale]

it looks like nothing thats why i dont really like it

its too creative

[celest nest]

That's part of Warframe's art style

it's realistic, but heavily stylized

[edgy whale]

its true

[celest nest]

Warframes are grown, not manufactured

[edgy whale]

of course

[celest nest]

Often grown randomly, and parts are stapled on to contain sterile infestation that was applied, and weaponize it properly

So shapes can often look odd

[edgy whale]

oh i see

[celest nest]

manufactured, but odd. Not strictly like something real

If it's a whale, it will be a weird looking whale

if frame wears cloth - it will not be real cloth, it will be frame's own skin, extended and grafted onto biomechanical tissue

That is simply fashioned to look like cloth by the archimedian that worked on frame at that time

[edgy whale]

so shapes would only look like a specific thing if a metalic part kind of bonsai'd it as it growed

and even then it wouldnt be perfect

[celest nest]

Shapes could remind of specific shapes, but always feel a bit off

Don't forget who made warframes

[edgy whale]

yeah, i want to make my helm warpy

[celest nest]

Orokin were really into arts and crafts

(and some definitely drove a short bus to school)

So they often make their works extremely stylized

[edgy whale]

i cant remember wth im remembering

it was cute but really uneven

like a toy or something

[celest nest]

Basically, my point is - your helmet needs to look less like a blob in silhouette, and less like a normal fish head on top of a body, but instead be stylized, and biomechanical

Like Bionicle, only not cancelled

Or Guyver

[edgy whale]

i dont think thats true across the board

[celest nest]

oh and another thing

It's pretty true depending on faction

[edgy whale]

so imagine a truffle

[celest nest]

A truffle as in

Like, a shroomie

[edgy whale]

a mushroom lump

[celest nest]

Right

[edgy whale]

say you went through 1 million truffles till you found one that looked like a catfish

thats the kind of silhouette i want

not perfect, but as close as you could

[celest nest]

The problem is that if it's not going to be stylized, and will be obvious catfish, it will not be accepted

[edgy whale]

then mechanical eyes and bits embedded into it

[celest nest]

Especially with eyes

[edgy whale]

i see

[celest nest]

basically

[edgy whale]

it is a bit too specific your right

[celest nest]

If you take a face, and make a mechanical copy of it, and make eyes not organic - it will not be accepted into teh game

HOWEVER, god I hate this timeout

If you make a heavily stylized face that IMPLIES facial features and has no eyes, and has eyes in a place, where you wouldn't expect them, while also looking biomechanical, and distorted - THAT would be accepted

Warframe has very unique artstyle and it's one of it's strength. Which is why I hate Yareli so much

[edgy whale]

what about just two eyes on one side

[celest nest]

If it looks good

[edgy whale]

and then a thin slice of light on the other side

[celest nest]

But here's what I suggest you do

[edgy whale]

like a bar

[celest nest]

I suggest entirely different, iterative approach

Take this side profile without head

And just start drawing random shapes on it that kinda look interesting. Do not spend more than a few mintues on shape

[edgy whale]

oh wow

it just came to me how to modify this

make it really uneven and unnatural but very reminiscent of a catfish

gimme a bit

[celest nest]

Like do this

, but maybe even more

And start making weird shapes on them

[edgy whale]

i think im good with the rounded hood shape

but i know how to make the fine details fucked up

like i said the lumpy head will be warped

like a mushroom

[celest nest]

like this

It can be warped, it just needs to also be interesting

And you can come up with really intesting concept by doing tons of these blotchy side profiles

it's super fast and easy to do and you can really sometimes lock onto a good look early on

[edgy whale]

i think i made something quite warframey

[celest nest]

Well, it's lumpier

[edgy whale]

they almost look like strands of hair?

idk i think im on the right track

im seriously not going to make a silhouette like that though

im so sick of that crap its everywhere

i know its the style but still

it can be expanded

in gentle ways

oh yeah the silhouettes going to become very distinct rq

not complicated

but distinct

youll know the helm from the shadow

[celest nest]

I think you could integrate eyes better

Right now they're just stapled on

[edgy whale]

what do you mean

oh like jutted in at odd angles?

as if you pushed thumb tacks into said truffle

[celest nest]

No, I mean, they look liek tehy are glued on. Not part of design

[edgy whale]

well in the end theyll look embedded

they are mechanical

while the rest is biological

but yeah, stapled on isnt right

they have to look stapled IN

into an uneven surface

[edgy whale]

maybe, just maybe went overboard

[celest nest]

I think it's now a bit too cluttered

I like the idea, but I think now you can start simplifying it

Keep in mind a couple of rules for any design - rule of thirds, and medium/large/small detail

[edgy whale]

i like the eyebrows, 2 on one size one really long one on the other

[celest nest]

For rule of third you should keep roughly 70%~ of your model lightly detailed or not detailed at all, it should be easy for an eye to glide on it. The remaining ~30% should be detailed - and they should be detailed in areas of interest, areas where eye would move towards.

[edgy whale]

do you think theyl accept that?

cause one side has two eyes the other has a long led light thing

[celest nest]

I think you are lacking the medium forms, and integrated detailing

Which brings me to second thing

[edgy whale]

what do those words mean

[celest nest]

You need to split your model into three shape sizes. Let's take a look at example

Here's a robot. Not my work.

[edgy whale]

you give me this lil guide i gotta make something to eat

just keep goin

[celest nest]

These are large shapes. They dictate the silhoutte, and reinforce the general view and emotion of the model. Large shapes can make your work look cute, or relaxed, or aggressive, or determined.

These - are medium shapes. They work to solidify large shapes and make the work look more refined. They can dictate what kind of style you're going for, is your character more organic or more mechanical, general colorscheme is often determiend by medium shapes, but they do not dictate the general silhouette, and if they do - they do it subtly, working with large shapes, and not dictating too much. If you have medium shapes that are too dominant - you get a Bayformer

These are small/detailing shapes. They exist to reinforce the medium shapes, ground them in reality, and also draw atttention to specific areas of importance, such as face, or hands. Areas which are somehow dominant in the design will also be often more detailed. They are also visually heavy, and will attract eye to subsciously go to them, so their placement, amount and distribution is important. If you place them in wrong areas, your character will look imbalanced, because attention point is in wrong area. If you place them too much - your character design will be destroyed, because it will now look like a mess. Those are details that are kept to about 30% of overall surface, or below.

All three types of shapes work to reinforce the master shape above. Medium shapes reinforce the large shapes, detailing shapes ground and solidify medium shapes. Note also that very detailed surfaces are more visually heavy, so if you have detailed area that takes up 50% of the model compared to not detailed - your model will look weird and imbalanced, like it's falling, or unstable.

i know, many words, but it can help you make real cool looking trashgoblins

[edgy whale]

can you chop up my picture in this way?

what is what

[celest nest]

You seem to roughly have one large shape, and the rest is medium shapes, with no detailing shapes, or too little

[edgy whale]

what do i need

[celest nest]

You basically have one giant blob, with four equally sized strings poking out of it, which have equally sized smaller horns growing on htem, and thenre's also some eyes

You need to iterate

If you want to approach this design seriously, you need to not hook onto first design, and instead explore sometimes dozens of them

[edgy whale]

i see

[edgy whale]

i think though there is a key to what im making

[celest nest]

Star with drawing up shapes that evoke something aquatic

But keep them loose and keep them not detailed

Make shapes until you find something that really grabs you

Your first pancake is always gonna be weird and lumpy

And it's important not to get too attached to that first pancake

[edgy whale]

1. Rounded shapes as opposed to sinewy narrow shapes to allow more options for grendel customization because he can be interpreted in many ways

it needs to be round an thick

[celest nest]

Ok, start with big rounded shapes, but start with a few sketches at least

And also - for now, while iterating, stay away from color

Sometimes you can see way more in greyscale than if you start assigning colors to areas.

[edgy whale]

cause grendel is fat why did you give him a bug head

[celest nest]

I gave him jaw motiff

[edgy whale]

he needs a goron head

or a kirby head

[celest nest]

My general design was a bull head

[edgy whale]

cause thats what he is

[celest nest]

Which I then slowly morphed

[edgy whale]

yeah i know, burning babies

you played zelda or kirby?

[celest nest]

Yes

[edgy whale]

hes a goron

[celest nest]

Or, another good source of inspiration (including for DE, it's actually a main source of inspiration for them)

[edgy whale]

if you noticed the blob, it was wider at the bottom than at the top

[celest nest]

Is guyver

[edgy whale]

like a gorons head, which is an important thing for what i end up with

[celest nest]

I mean you can try to turn him into a goron, but gorons are kinda a bit

You know. Cartoony

[edgy whale]

so thats 2. wider at bottom than at top

[edgy whale]

no im not making him into a goron

its just a natural shape to use, like an egg

think of this

grendel is a sumo wrestler right?

[celest nest]

Yes

[edgy whale]

the way he stands

when sumo wrestling you want to keep your weight low to the ground

so in that same way the helmet should appear bottom heavy

it um whats the word

[celest nest]

Morbidly obese

[edgy whale]

it "implies" stability, resiliance strength

[celest nest]

It's grounded

[edgy whale]

yes

so i want to make a very grounded helmet and didnt we discover grendel has no neck?

[celest nest]

He technically does, but it's so short, that you're allowed to make your own neck

[edgy whale]

does that mean we can make helmets like this.

with super super fat necks

[celest nest]

Why not make some sketches

[edgy whale]

yes

im bad at drawing i think i have the early onset parkinsons

[celest nest]

I also was bad at drawing some time ago

Not that I'm particularly good now

[edgy whale]

i use computers now

cause i can just ctrl z

when i mess up

but yeah im basically just drawring blobs

so lemme make some food and grab a pen

i think the current blob i have now is the best i can thing of, but it can be extended backwards in lots of interesting ways

like this

i still wanna go with the fish design though same concept

to honor that greedy fish that likes cereal

but yeah i think what i have here is good, but yeah i should simplify it

cause you kept saying its not enough so i just made the most f'd up warframy version of what i already have so we can cut backwards

i have the project with all the layers still saved

so i can easily remove things

oh wow

i think i can show the both the sumo and fish aspects of this helm with one back of the head attachment

cant draw it rn my mac is ready to put in the water

but i wonder if you can guess the general idea?

i think im removing the eyelids no matter what though

cause fish dont have eyelids and they make him look mean

[celest nest]

Make moooore shapes

[edgy whale]

of what

[celest nest]

Sketches, more sketches

You're stuck in one shape, and you want to defend it

[edgy whale]

i wanna keep the front of his head

its perfect

hood and fish mouth

they become one

i want to defend it cause its the best way to exemplify the base concept

and its just gorgeous imo

like i can change the eyes all that

[celest nest]

No such thing as perfect anything

[edgy whale]

but just the fish mouth hood

[celest nest]

But sure keep the mouth

[edgy whale]

yes

[celest nest]

I woud change some stuff but it's your helmet

[edgy whale]

thats all im sayin

yeah, but like i said we're yin and yang grendel needs both of our styles to please everyone

people like the art style for different reasons

i love the beauty from chaos, how horrible monstrous things can come out to be things that are lovely to look at

but your still right about the clutter and stuff like that

and your also aware of what will and wont be accepted and i need that more than anything

like while i love these catfish whisker eyebrows. idk if de would like them but at the same time theyre very stylistically eastern and he has two eyebrows on one side and only one on the other

also i think our arguments are good and we both learn from eachother

so no matter how nasty it gets im improving and your horizons are opening

oh lemme see the flower

[celest nest]

I get that your art style is different, I'm just saying you should try more shapes

[edgy whale]

yeah

i try them in my head beforehand

[spark condor]

Hey guys

[edgy whale]

i cant pay attention

[celest nest]

Hello

[edgy whale]

cause my mind doesnt stop

yes?

did you make mutant flower yet? or a stage or few of it?

so this is what i like rn, who knows if more ideas will come as i play space station 13 later, but the next step is making drawrings that dont suck

so what are the angles i need?

[celest nest]

Well, I mean it depends on how you work

I personally usually just make side view sketches and go to 3D

[edgy whale]

what things for a completed concept art draft thingy to show people

that are better at that than i could ever be

and are already payin for that heckin program

[celest nest]

I'm starting to hate the janny-bot on this server

[edgy whale]

and i dont wanna hear im not gonna find anyone again

[celest nest]

It deletes my links with images

[edgy whale]

cause you said a swear?

[celest nest]

No, I posted a link

[edgy whale]

pretend i could find someone

[celest nest]

Ok, so what was your question?

[spark condor]

Vulbjorn do you think you could help with the details on the sketches I showed yesterday and stuff possibly?

[celest nest]

Mmm, it depends

[spark condor]

That helmet looks pretty cool btw Goob

[celest nest]

I don't really want to get into any colllaborations, but maybe I could help a little bit with soemthing

[spark condor]

Yeah just if you like recreated with some more detail and then I can try to copy as best as I can that way I can build up my confidence with detailing you know

Like a personal challenge for myself I suppose

[celest nest]

Sure, show the arts?

[edgy whale]

@spark condor ty

[spark condor]

This is the best one I’d done

[celest nest]

Weeeeellll

[edgy whale]

im saying he should mutate it

[celest nest]

It's a flower

[spark condor]

I drew this one completely by hand with a reference image as a guide so

[edgy whale]

bazillion s of years of mutation

[celest nest]

It would need to be pretty much entirely redesigned to fit Warframe's aesthetic

[spark condor]

Yeah just to try to give it some flair

[celest nest]

Well, hm

[spark condor]

Yeah I’m just practicing with what I’d go for in the Warframe style if that makes sense

[edgy whale]

see thats what im sayin but he could do it in a very cool way

so that flower in a modern day earth flower

[spark condor]

It’s difficult cause I’m a beginner artist

[edgy whale]

i guess so

do you have thin translucent paper

[celest nest]

First thing I'd like to recommend, seeing as you draw in real life

[edgy whale]

or one of those backlight thingies

[spark condor]

So gonna try and recreate it but more like maybe infested style I guess

[edgy whale]

if you have a way to trace it, trace it with a pencil then change it a lil

then do it again

[spark condor]

But I have had a look at the images you sent me so that’ll definitely help 🙂

[edgy whale]

and again and again

[spark condor]

So Ty goob

[edgy whale]

np

[celest nest]

Instead of holding your pen like this and drawing your wrist

Hold your pen like this, and draw from shoulder/elbow

[edgy whale]

look closely alot of them look bad, probably most of them but some of them are gorgeous

[spark condor]

Hold the top

And lightly start off

[edgy whale]

mutation is random

oh, really?

[celest nest]

Secondly, what style are you going for in your flower?

[edgy whale]

ill have to try that

do they let you make those things for your shoulder

like the clan sigil spot

[spark condor]

Well since you mentioned mutations i might do infested style since it could literally become something completely different

[edgy whale]

infested can be beautiful

[spark condor]

Or partially mutated

[edgy whale]

id wear a pretty alien flower on my shoulder if i didnt have to give up any other slots

[celest nest]

Right, so infested

[spark condor]

If I’m gonna mutate it I guess I’ll go infested yeah

And the colours could be on the neon side but subdued if need be

[edgy whale]

ooh

[spark condor]

I’m also trying to take inspiration from my yugioh cards and playing elder scrolls etc

[edgy whale]

i gotta find something

so you might want to draw from a different perspective

this is a normal flower

but see those lil pollen things

[spark condor]

I also played Final Fantasy XIII and the plants in that game are quite mutated too so getting some ideas

[edgy whale]

imagine if you had those but they glowed and when you moved glowing pollen trailed behind you

can you do that @celest nest

[spark condor]

That could be like tentacle like things

[edgy whale]

oh yeah that would be awesome

[spark condor]

That would be interesting for Titania or Saryn

[celest nest]

Sec

One more minute, almost done

Here's how I would personally approach infested flower syandana

Red areas are connectors to shoulders. Yellow are glow spots

[spark condor]

That would be something I would wanna go for!

[celest nest]

IF we're talking about infested design

[spark condor]

Could do yellow to red pollen glow spots

Or yellow to green

[celest nest]

You can do gradient lighting, yes

If you want, feel free to use this design to maybe help you to come up with something

[spark condor]

You sure I don’t want to steal your idea

[celest nest]

I don't mind

I'm not planning on using it, and it could potentially help you a little bit

And version with glowy those things. The longbois

[spark condor]

This is fun to even just talk about ahaha

[celest nest]

Cursed are those who turn art and design into job

And not something fun

I will go and consume a gherkin now.

[spark condor]

I remember I showed someone one of my capturas and they asked me if I’d wanted to collaborate on a Tennogen piece a few years ago

If I remember right

[celest nest]

Gherkin consumed

[spark condor]

Glad you’re satisfied with your gherkin consumption

😁😊

[celest nest]

The pickle absorption has been satisfactory

[edgy whale]

these are mutated i think

look at the amount of petals

[frigid wasp]

lol

[dusk rampart]

so when does tennogen stuff usually become available for purchase?

[celest nest]

In this case, DE said next year I think

[edgy whale]

wait hwat

[celest nest]

It's next year in less than a month

[edgy whale]

oh lol

time is a wily mistress

is blender hard to use?

by a person whos not great with perfect mouse movements

like not brain

hand, dex score

[celest nest]

It can be somewhat difficult, but not impossible

https:/ /www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIoXOplUvAw You might want it .

This is excellent tutorial for new Blender

Honestly I don't know anyone who teaches Blender better than Blender Guru

I would strongly recommend learning Blender because it's an investment into potentially very profitable future

And it's also fun

[edgy whale]

@celest nest can i use assets of yours as starting points

[celest nest]

Yeah sure

My drawings or

[edgy whale]

like you got any individual robo eyes

i can imbed into a potato

like lego pieces

no is ok

[celest nest]

Ok a few things first

First of all you really want to go through this Blender tutorial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIoXOplUvAw

You really really want to do it, and get a complete donut, because it will teach you how to do stuff you really need to do for working on Tennogen later

Secondly, you want not my assets, but DE's assets from here https://www.warframe.com/steamworkshop/help/

[edgy whale]

oh they got premade bits?

[celest nest]

All frames have their meshes available for download

[edgy whale]

oh

[celest nest]

And textures

But I absolutely insist you go through tutorial and DO get a donut at the end. If you're serious about it, I want ot see the donut

Otherwise you will fumble around and not be able to do anything.

[edgy whale]

vulbjorn do you hace enough of an income yet to not have a job?

[celest nest]

And then you will abandon it

Tennogen is my income.

[edgy whale]

wow

i wanna do dat

[celest nest]

It's enough of an income to support my family and to pay for a heart operation for my mother

Bot really doesn't like you

[edgy whale]

holy smokes, you can afford a whole family by just making warframe bits?

i keep saying bad words

[celest nest]

I mean, I live in a pretty questionable place where prices are lower than in US for example

[edgy whale]

oh yeah was gonna ask

where are you from?

[celest nest]

It's a secret

[edgy whale]

eastern europe?

[celest nest]

Let's talk about you potentially getting into Blender and then tennogen, if you want to

[edgy whale]

yes

do you think i have the potential

is it possible for me to make a life in such a way

[celest nest]

I mean, everything is possible. Talent doesn't exist. Talent is nothing more than time multiplied by hard work and passion for it

For example, before I was like 16 I couldn't draw a straight line.

[edgy whale]

i cant do dat

except on computer with ctr z 20 times

[celest nest]

Passion multiplied by time

[edgy whale]

and its kinda straight, straight enough for infested style lol

[celest nest]

Do something every day, and you will notice yourself improving.

[edgy whale]

oh yeah

i noticed that with my drawring

[celest nest]

And by something I mean - draw a few boxes. Position them differntly. Watch one part of Blender Guru's tutorial and then try t oreplicate it. But do it every single day, do not skip it.

[edgy whale]

i could send you a bunch of pictures chronologically and its obvious

i only struggle to learn when i get too prideful

like with music

[celest nest]

Why not start learning Blender right now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIoXOplUvAw

[edgy whale]

ok

i have to use bathroom

i will watch this on turlet

[celest nest]

In ten years, you will thank me, and most likely from a window of a new Porsche

[edgy whale]

of course ty

[celest nest]

No don't thank me now

You don't have a Porsche yet

[edgy whale]

its true

[celest nest]

You are ONLY allowed to thank me from a Porsche

[edgy whale]

i want to pay people to make my dreams come true

like i have an idea for a game

[keen pollen]

Rather sit in a house i own at this point

[celest nest]

yes but I like Porsches

[edgy whale]

have a few million make it happen

[celest nest]

Tho admittedly I like BMWs more.

Not new BMWs tho, I hate the giant nostril redesigns

[edgy whale]

thats the only reason for extreme wealth beyond a certain point

i dont need a nice car i just want to fund my creations

by funding people that are executers

which i am not

[celest nest]

Yet

[edgy whale]

thats true

[celest nest]

ANyway, you run through tutorial, I'll go look for more gherkins.

[edgy whale]

hey anyone got a picture of hydroid without a head?

hes my fav, ill start with extra passion

[edgy whale]

here, what do you think @celest nest

a hydroid helmet

[celest nest]

Is it front view

[edgy whale]

yes

[celest nest]

I think it looks a bit too hairy

It's hard to figure out what I'm looking at.

[edgy whale]

i get that

but i could say the same a thousand fold for anything else in the game

this is just an early version

but i feel its almost finished

very happy with what i have

hydroid has been my favorite since the beginning he needs something like this

oh i know what its gonna need by the end

if its possible, ill keep it to myself though in case i sleep and wake up and realize it was a bad idea or theres a better version of the concepy

im guessing the latter

so, i have a technical finished product question

what particle effects could this emit if any?

could i make it look like gas comes out that hole

like he was just smoking a pipe

[celest nest]

It could emit animated flowing emissives

It's possible, but you're nopw looking into pretty advanced territory

[edgy whale]

im just wondering

its not a neccessity

but i wanna specialize in wiggly bits

cause theyre the best parts of the warframe style

they generally have rounded edges and simple shapes like i like

and they wiggle

[celest nest]

Well, I'm going to put it as simply as I can

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=880325359

There is a reason I made this super simple helmet as my first work

It's not a skin, it's just a helmet, it's rather rounded, it does not have any emissives, or effect, or trasnforms, etc.

[edgy whale]

i think ill just make the helmet rigid first

[celest nest]

As an absolute beginner in sculpting, with about 6 years of classic drawing and half an architectural degree, it took me about 6 months to figure out how I should approach it, and make a product, that has been accepted into the game

[edgy whale]

then figure out the wigglies

[celest nest]

So my point is - the more complex you make your first work, as an absolute beginner in 3D, the less chances you have to actually finish it

I've seen countless people abandon their projects because they went too complex with no experience to support this complexity

[edgy whale]

what makes it complex

[celest nest]

your helmet?

[edgy whale]

it seems like that helmet is even more complex

[celest nest]

What is "it" and what is "that"

[edgy whale]

tiny fine details

the ampulex helm

[celest nest]

My helmet is super simple. All those details are texture

Your helmet has multiple pieces to them, each needs to be individually modelled, fit together, retopoed, unwrapped, textured and rigged

[edgy whale]

it sounds worth it to me

[celest nest]

You won't finish it

[edgy whale]

idk man

give me all the tutorials

[celest nest]

You have no experience with 3D, you cannot finnish it

I gave you Blender tutorial, but you're hitting too high now

[edgy whale]

ill take it step by step

first i make donut

[celest nest]

Even F1 drivers did not immediately sat into F1 cars, they all started their careers driving go karts

If you go immediately too complex, it's equivalent to sending to a Moon astronaut, that just began his training. He's going to lose conscioussness on liftoff, he can't handle the Gs

[edgy whale]

i guess what i mean is that this helmet is the far goal

that everything i learn is moving towards it

specifically

on the grand tree of lessons and learning

[celest nest]

Potentially, but italso needs some mored esign work

[edgy whale]

its gonna be awhile im sure itll come to me

[celest nest]

I'm sure it will

[edgy whale]

but i think its close to amazing

if what i see in that picture, which might not be what others see becomes an object in game

a very wiggly thing with lots of wigglers

i will make many many coins yes

it might be hard to notice but the face plate is going to appear almost pried open

warped metal

[celest nest]

it can make many-much coin-dinero, but it now has problems with - it's just medium shapes, I don't see large shapes

[edgy whale]

i think the warriors knot would be the large shape

im still not sure what that means

[celest nest]

Keep in mind shape hierrachy

Large shapes are often comprised of medium shapes

or supported by them

[edgy whale]

but if you mean the distinct silhouette, its gonna be the tail

[celest nest]

Imma do a quick little sketch

[edgy whale]

youd only see its splendor in a profile

does it use this as an example?

[celest nest]

no

I'll show something else

[edgy whale]

this is a pried open metal cube with technological bits covered in an artful mass of tentacles

the face will appear rounded like that of a persons instead of flat because of the pried and warped nature of the box