lore-discussion

[fast dew]

Loid can't identify it

[tall echo]

The triad isn't actually allowed to leave

[drifting lintel]

I think it's kinda weird that he did it, but it's probably to instill the idea of even the worst people being redeemable
I wonder why albrect would want that

[twin wigeon]

well they're lowkey freaky

[tall echo]

No I mean like
The game design lore explanation

[fast dew]

Albrecht is

. God i aint gonna have this conversation again

[tall echo]

Before triad the lore was that protos stay protos bc they're in a time loop

[fast dew]

Itd almost as if Roach is severely worse than Albrecht

[tall echo]

And then along came the triad and just stays protos bc magick

[dark compass]

The power of legally distinct jesus christ

[twin wigeon]

hahaahaha

[drifting lintel]

when did they say that? I thought albrect just messes with the batches to not fully turn them

[fast dew]

Its both

[tall echo]

Someone didn't read the notes from WITW :)

[dark compass]

It's whispers in the walls not notes in the computer

[tall echo]

Echo

[twin wigeon]

oh from the uhhhhh spooki books?

[tall echo]

Albrecht says in the notes that the protos will turn eventually

[drifting lintel]

okay which note did I miss? because I don't remember him mentioning that the protos would fully turn.

[pale cedar]

The Vessels note

[fast dew]

Mhm

[twin wigeon]

we also this bc of temple

they knew they knew its not slowing for them so they left to chill on a meteor

[tall echo]

It's slowed but not paused

And considering infestation essentially restructures the chemical makeup of whatever it subsumes it's likely intensely painful the entire time

[drifting lintel]

May not last he dosent know for sure if they will lose their mind or not

[tall echo]

Temple is flare

[pale cedar]

Well it's been proven that it happens to them so Albrecht was correct

[twin wigeon]

yep and we also know that Flare turns into Temple, and also joins the fray during the Naga drum night

[fast dew]

Please god i cannot wait for their prime trailer one day

[twin wigeon]

i want them covered in molten orokin goldddd

oooohhhh and lizzie???

cannot wait to see her primed

[tall echo]

lizzie just has an orokin face melt-glued to her

[twin wigeon]

sickkkkkk

[drifting lintel]

Yeah flare did lose their mind, but it seems that the others don't.

[fast dew]

Ive seen someone brainstorm a idea for the trailer

[dark compass]

She ate one of the Seven

[fast dew]

And I fw heavy

[twin wigeon]

the others will lose their minds

[fast dew]

Naga drums. The sound you hear in octavia's thing

[twin wigeon]

thatat or yk they die to the nukes

[fast dew]

But slowly increasing Lizzie and Temple's own music

[tall echo]

I mean. evidence points towards the others going the same

the protos are all in different stages of transformation

[drifting lintel]

I think the idea is that flare is the exception.

He created an entirely new strain for flare and messed up the part that limits it.

[twin wigeon]

nyx's is the worse stage ofc

[tall echo]

nope

[twin wigeon]

uhhhh no

[tall echo]

temple's strain is stolen from ballas just like the rest

[twin wigeon]

same as the others

[drifting lintel]

Okay I didn't know he stole temple from ballas

[fast dew]

Albrecht and his weird stealing habit

[dark compass]

Yoink

[tall echo]

albrecht "kleptomaniac" entrati

[twin wigeon]

well stole tthe strain but ballas never made them

too rebellious

[dark compass]

Ballas made a rockstar and then thought it's too rebellious

[fast dew]

Albrecht has stolen

Cars
Train
Person
Fingers
Money
From ballas

[dark compass]

You forgot a golden maw

[twin wigeon]

finger*

[fast dew]

Oh yeah

[tall echo]

finger*s*

[twin wigeon]

wait HE STTOLE A MAW???

[fast dew]

Yeah he has a golden maw

[twin wigeon]

WHERE WAS THAT WHEN WE WERE FIGHTIN WALLY???

[pale cedar]

A sword too

[drifting lintel]

I still think flare is the exception that proves the rule of protos not fully transforming.

Idk if y'all remember but flare mentions they were infected with techrot before getting the proto-flare helminth.

[fast dew]

Dead on his wall

[twin wigeon]

;-;

[tall echo]

so were the others

[fast dew]

Yeah all of the hex are, thats how Albrecht got them to be protos

[pale cedar]

Flare is the evidence not the exception

[twin wigeon]

wrong channel friendo

[drifting lintel]

They mention that?

[tall echo]

the other hex got the serum as a "cure"

[cunning ore]

mbk, where to post that?

[drifting lintel]

#fashion-frame

[twin wigeon]

#fashion-frame

[dark compass]

Yeah, the idea was "you caught techrot, you're gonna die, take this shot to not die"

[twin wigeon]

and he was somewhat true

[drifting lintel]

I didn't know that was the situation with all of the hex

[twin wigeon]

deadly caveat

[cunning ore]

thank you

[cunning ore]

thank you too

[twin wigeon]

honestly alb do lookss like a grave robber

[cunning ore]

i dk if the helminth created by Ballas or not, but the infestation was created or was found by Orokin?

[dark compass]

Found

It was here even before 1999

Its origin is still unknown

[drifting lintel]

That ... Might also be a bootstrap paradox actually

[fast dew]

Ehh

[twin wigeon]

found on a nearby asteroid or colony by orokin

[dark compass]

Bootstrapping infestation would be lame

[twin wigeon]

not bootstrap

[pale cedar]

There's no Paradoxes in Warframe

Even Steve just called Duviri a Paradox to make it sound cool

[drifting lintel]

Their hivemind exists out of time so it wouldn't be out of the question.

[tall echo]

there is a little bit of paradox

[twin wigeon]

tthere is a bit yeah

[drifting lintel]

Yeah there's a paradox in duviri

[tall echo]

operator helps drifter as thanks for drifter helping in tnw

[dark compass]

Yeah like having so many grimoire skins despite only having one grimoire

[fast dew]

Nah, the whole. Palimpsest of space-time also kinda forces jt away

[dark compass]

It's a paradox

[pale cedar]

Nothing says there's only one

[twin wigeon]

palimpsest is 100% a word

[drifting lintel]

Palimpsest of space-time is just so bootstraps don't rip apart the strands of krah. They can still be paradoxes.

[twin wigeon]

krahhhhhhhh

[pale cedar]

Roathe actually proves there's multiple

[tall echo]

khra

[twin wigeon]

theres multiple grimoires for sure

[tall echo]

I have. memorized the requiems from orxvkl

[drifting lintel]

It's spelt stupid no matter how you do it.

[tall echo]

I hate orxvkl

[twin wigeon]

our one is just special bc wally wants it

[pale cedar]

No, he just wanted the page not the book

[tall echo]

I hate orxvkl more than AM hates humanity

[twin wigeon]

yeah, YOU'D know

you're THE Book or was THE Book

[tall echo]

were

[fast dew]

Khra, Vome, Fass, Netra, Xata, Ris and. Jahu

[twin wigeon]

now you're just lorak (no hate against lorak ofc)

[tall echo]

oull

[fast dew]

Oh and Oull but thats not apart of the requiem poem afaik

[drifting lintel]

I think it's entirely possible that:

• Albrecht caused the 1999 plague
• Albrecht didn't have a loop running
• Albrecht didn't even go there to escape TMitW

[tall echo]

lorak is one accidental cursive away from talking for the trees

[twin wigeon]

he can'tve created the plague

[pale cedar]

I have all of the book skins as pfps

[twin wigeon]

holy shi, Nemi

[pale cedar]

I’ll change it to the red one next Halloween

[twin wigeon]

Alb didn't go to 1999 to escape wally, he was setting up the year for the operator to invade and befriend and stuffs

[tall echo]

1. 1999 was always known as the plague year and techrot predates modern infestation
2. albrecht made a 1 day loop to give himself time to figure stuff out
3. bruhhhhh

albrecht went to 1999 to both escape wally and to lure him away from loid

[twin wigeon]

(i need me a 1 day loop)

[tall echo]

groundhog day

[twin wigeon]

nevermind

i don't want that loop anymore

[pale cedar]

He didn't go there to escape Wally tbh he went there just to lure him away from Loid

He always knew Wally might get in

[dark compass]

mmm... ground hog

[pale cedar]

The keeping him away from Loid didn't even work in the end because Wally just multitasked

[twin wigeon]

maybe Wally doesn't care about loid now that we've shown up

[drifting lintel]

1: 1999 is known as the plague year because of techrot. We know for a fact that techrot is infestation. Albrecht could have brought infestation to hollvania for his plan.
2: we only know there was a loop because of drifter saying there's a loop to the hex. It's only possible for him to learn this from loid or Albrecht. Loid could have been getting readings from drifter's loop, Albrecht could have lied.
3: the MitW is already there and possessing rhyshanka so clearly it didn't work. I think he went to 1999 to set up the perfect area to force drifter to get his emotions back.

[twin wigeon]

1. Albrecht couldn't have brought the modern infestation to 1999 and expect it to evolve to be the Techrot

[tall echo]

how the hell does rusalka become... that

[twin wigeon]

the techrot was already there

[twin wigeon]

hot?

[tall echo]

no the spelling

[twin wigeon]

oh

[drifting lintel]

He could have changed modern infestation into techrot the same way ballas changed infestation into helminth.

[twin wigeon]

rhyshanka

[fast dew]

The plague predates Albrecht, thats why he went to 1999, because. It was the plague year

[pale cedar]

Ryshanka is certainly a character of all time

[drifting lintel]

Not knowing how to spell Russian words and a phone keyboard.

[tall echo]

1. again, techrot predates modern infestation
2. ah yes, luring wally away didn't work bc wally was lured away

[drifting lintel]

Bootstrap paradox.

[fast dew]

Nup

[twin wigeon]

tthe plague year prolly refers to the full scale outbreak of techrot after the scaldra failed?

[pale cedar]

The plague year refers to 1999

[twin wigeon]

well yeah but why plague year?

[tall echo]

there are no bootstraps

[twin wigeon]

we don't even have boots that require straps

[drifting lintel]

We don't know that for sure. It seems to but it also seems to be connected to modern infestation through the hive mind.

And luring wally away clearly didn't do Jack since he's still attacking the sanctum

[tall echo]

do you have any evidence for your arguments

[pale cedar]

Because it's when the Techrot stopped being a small thing

It's like COVID being small in 2018 but being a massive thing in 19-20

[drifting lintel]

The fact that the infestation forms the coda in the future

[twin wigeon]

we do know that the techrot did exist before 1999 bc of the technocyte coda emails i think?

[tall echo]

nope, they wait

[twin wigeon]

no

[tall echo]

coda are literally waiting from 1999 to the present

[twin wigeon]

the codas were formed in 1999 and justt wait, gestating in their stadium for us to arrive

[fast dew]

Its very much the

If we evolved from monkeys why is there still monkeys thing

[drifting lintel]

Either they retreat into the hive mind or they're immune to the time loop due to the hive mind. Either way they're connected to the hive mind.

[pale cedar]

It existed but wasn't a massive issue till 1999 which was when it got named Techrot

[tall echo]

time continues past the loop

[twin wigeon]

how could it not be a big issue??? wtf??? if my electronics started killing people i'd be concerned

lollll

[pale cedar]

It started so small then evolved

[tall echo]

well, it didn't yet

[dark compass]

Like in the hit movie G-Force

[drifting lintel]

The only things in 1999 that seem to leave the loop are the coda and drifter.

[fast dew]

...Albrecht

[twin wigeon]

and temple

and kaya

[fast dew]

Kalymos, kaya, temple

[pale cedar]

Even COVID-19 started small before becoming a global problem

[twin wigeon]

and murmur?

[cunning ore]

it still there

[tall echo]

and everything else, we just don't get to see

[fast dew]

Murmur yeah

[tall echo]

if nothing kept happening beyond the loop how would the present exist

[drifting lintel]

Albrecht, I got no clue
Temple and kaya, both infested and in the hive mind
Kalymos, doesn't leave the loop

[twin wigeon]

what

[fast dew]

No, but she isnt really affected

[pale cedar]

Albrecht says directly how he left

[fast dew]

Not visibly at least

[tall echo]

the hive mind stuff is completely irrelevant

[twin wigeon]

Kaya is smart enough to create time travel to go to our present

[main arch]

Willingly stays. Lmao.

[fast dew]

Time travel independently developed from Albrecht's time travel

Kalymos absolutely can leave if she wants

[twin wigeon]

well yeah but like, lots of ppl have his notes, not many can create time travel from it

[fast dew]

No im agreeing

[drifting lintel]

When?

[main arch]

She interestingly used Argon Crystals as a basis.

[fast dew]

Hex when he explains why thr nuke needs to go off

[pale cedar]

“The bomb must go off”

[fast dew]

Mhm. Like a trampoline

[main arch]

Think she did so as a way to get to the void, likely, and then go to OUR timeline from there.

[drifting lintel]

He's f*cking lying

[twin wigeon]

i love kaya, she's always a mood

[fast dew]

....no.

[tall echo]

more like a tether point to swing along

[twin wigeon]

Alb is many things but a liar to lie about killing several million ppl for no reason?

[drifting lintel]

He never intended the nuke to actually go off. He's setting up the nuke to force drifter to connect to the hex

[twin wigeon]

he is liar, just not that big of a liar

[tall echo]

https://tenor.com/view/frieza-dragon-balls-s-uper-gif-11346191

explicit counter argument: exists
stubborn lore discussion newbie:

[twin wigeon]

no he did intend for it to go off, drifter connecting with hex is just a very good byproduct id assume

[pale cedar]

“If I must be a demon let me be an honest one let me prove my nature by what I do next”

[drifting lintel]

No we know he's lying. Because he goads the drifter into creating the loop. "You can't stop this unless you know them"

[fast dew]

... thats true

[twin wigeon]

... thats

[main arch]

Cause it's the looping point.

[fast dew]

Thats literally true he

You cant beat wally if you aint connected to them

[pale cedar]

The loop already existed though we see the loop at the start of the quest

[tall echo]

"the loop has been expanded to include all of 1999"
-post-quest mail

[fast dew]

Have you done the good ending?

[drifting lintel]

He makes himself into the antagonist to force Drifter to be the hero.

[fast dew]

Hes not the antagonist in any regard

[drifting lintel]

So the drifter can then kill TMitW

[pale cedar]

The antagonist was Wally

[fast dew]

He is working with us

[main arch]

We got dialogue about them being "phantoms" in a loop before we showed up tho. It's one of the convos with Lettie

[twin wigeon]

he's the shady hero

[strange turtle]

He didn’t set it up it was already happening

Y2k

[twin wigeon]

that noone but his cats like

[tall echo]

you made me pull up the mail from when I completed the quest myself

[drifting lintel]

The second paragraph. In that picture literally proves my point about the nuke never actually being intended to go off

[pale cedar]

Drifter has never created a loop

[tall echo]

correct, but he had to use it to power a 1 day loop

[twin wigeon]

it does and still does go off, the explosion just fuels the next loop?

the 1 day loop ppl are talking abt is the hex quest, which takes place in a day

er a portion of it did, i don't remember

[drifting lintel]

Drifter created 2 now. Thrax used drifter's power to make the duviri spiral, and drifter slammed down his hand in the exact same way for the 1999 loop

[twin wigeon]

duviri spiral was always thrax's

bc we let him

[tall echo]

10/10 reading comprehension mate

[strange turtle]

Yeah, expanding it to the full year

[fast dew]

I miss thrax

[pale cedar]

Loop already existed in 1999

Duviri loop was made by an upset Thrax

[fast dew]

My little brother 💔

[twin wigeon]

what the fu

[pale cedar]

Just because you expand a loop it isn't the same as creating one

[twin wigeon]

stolen, imma steal itt

[drifting lintel]

Up here people agreed with me on the point of thrax being connected to drifter

[strange turtle]

With Loid not knowing what was going on, so he assumes Albrecht did something (which he did in a way, just not directly)

[tall echo]

and it is

[main arch]

Yeh he is the embodiment of the Drifter's crumbling composure and emotional instability.

[tall echo]

the duviri loop being connected to drifter doesn't mean the 1999 loop was created by them

[pale cedar]

Thrax still made the Duviri loop not Drifter

[drifting lintel]

Teshin: "You did it. You took control."
Drifter: "I always had it. Thrax didn't make this place-"
Teshin: "-you did. But... you reset it. You gave it all back to him. Why?"

[tall echo]

ok. it. is. still. not. related.

please. read.

[main arch]

1999 loop was NOT made by the drifter because it was ALREADY put in place.

A one day loop the Drifter then stretched it into a full year.

[pale cedar]

Expanded

[twin wigeon]

expanded likely with explosion of the nuke adding energy tto the loop, allowing it to expand or smth

[drifting lintel]

This is the only thing I've seen where it confirms that Albrecht actually made a loop in 1999 and even then what I said earlier is that drifter can make loops.

[tall echo]

SO WHAT

[strange turtle]

Can

[main arch]

No? Lmao the explosion IS the loop point.

[pale cedar]

You see the loop in action before Drifter ever arrives

[drifting lintel]

Drifter made the divirui loop, I got it slightly wrong saying that he made the 1999 one

[tall echo]

I can make salad, doesn't mean all salad in the world is made by me

[main arch]

The moment our drifter reset the loop again is when they expanded it.

[pale cedar]

Thrax made it

[drifting lintel]

Thrax was never truly in control of duviri. That's the point of the whole metaphor and expansion.

[main arch]

Drifter made the Duviri realm, Thrax likely made the spiral loop.

It's a combined effort, inadvertently.

[tall echo]

irrelevant

[pale cedar]

Duviri was made by Drifter
An emotional Thrax made the loop

[fast dew]

Id also like to bring up that thrax was king even when drifter was younger

[drifting lintel]

Teshin literally says that drifter took control of the loop. And then drifter corrects him saying they always had control because they made it.

Teshin: "You did it. You took control."
Drifter: "I always had it. Thrax didn't make this place-"
Teshin: "-you did. But... you reset it. You gave it all back to him. Why?"

Thrax may have been king but drifter was essentially their god

[fast dew]

https://tenor.com/view/gato-withrock-gif-27341353

[pale cedar]

It wasn't always had control of the loop

[tall echo]

ok. please. it's completely irrelevant to the original topic

[fast dew]

Its 5am

[drifting lintel]

What are you giving that look for, we already had this argument.

[fast dew]

Yeah. And we're going in loops

Mainly because you are not listening to other things

If drifter says something, that is also supported by other things

It usually is true.

See: Albrecht seemingly having multiple kids

See: Albrecht having a wife

[drifting lintel]

I was saying that loops are an innate power of drifter and everyone dog piles me despite the fact that we literally see them using it twice

[pale cedar]

Drifter wasnt saying I always had control of the loop because the loop wasn't always there which even Drifter says as much

Thrax created the loop because Drifter wanted to leave

[tall echo]

[drifting lintel]

"you took control"
"I always had control"

Nemesis: "they didn't say they had control"

[strange turtle]

Yeah, because you also said that Drifter created the 1999 loop, when it existed before they were even there, and before they Began Again

[drifting lintel]

And I conceded that I was wrong when the image from the end of 1999 was sent

[tall echo]

you didn't

it took some more back and forth

[drifting lintel]

I conceded right here!

[pale cedar]

You still got that wrong

Drifter never made a loop

[drifting lintel]

I even say it here too

"This is the first time I've seen evidence."

[tall echo]

yeah about 20 minutes later

[strange turtle]

It’s not

We already had this conversation

[drifting lintel]

Because we started arguing about duviri

[strange turtle]

And this among other things were shown

[tall echo]

you started

[drifting lintel]

I got hung up on the second paragraph saying that Albrecht intentionally set it up for drifter
and then someone else said drifter never created loops despite duviri

[strange turtle]

They’re saying that Teshin+Drifter are not referring to controlling the loop specifically, just talking in general. The authority over Duviri (that allows for the looping).
Because Thrax started looping as part of his response to the Drifter trying to leave, at which point they weren’t in control, and thus couldn’t have been in control of the loops

[tall echo]

thrax always looped duviri, but it became hostile after drifter tried to leave

[strange turtle]

No

[drifting lintel]

Did he? I thought he only started looping when he killed drifter?

[tall echo]

it was always the same day, just different stories for drifter to play

[strange turtle]

There were always Spirals, and Thrax might’ve rewound a few times, but before that he wasn’t doing it consistently (establishing a continuous loop)

[main arch]

Wait where's any indicator that the loop existed before the Drifter tried to leave?

I am almost certain THAT is what gave rise to the loops.

[tall echo]

"the first day of the rest of my life.. again. woohoo"

[strange turtle]

Hence why they grew up to ambiguous legal age, but then stopped

[strange turtle]

Yeah. The rest of their life getting fought and executed

[main arch]

That's not adequate enough. If anything that sounds like on the way of leaving.

[tall echo]

that's a line from a duviri citizen

[strange turtle]

Ohh

[main arch]

Oh

[strange turtle]

Well, that still doesn’t mean anything then

[drifting lintel]

The citizens are likely getting sick and tired of the looping too.

[strange turtle]

The first day of the rest of your life is. Everyday

If it’s repeating, then that is said first day of the rest of your life, again

[pale cedar]

Blame Thrax

[main arch]

They may have lived a full life until Drifter tried to leave and made Thrax make the loop to reset everything tho.

And hence that quote.

[tall echo]

there's also just stuff during the quest talking about drifter playing stories and then thrax looping at the end of the day

during the quest or in some other text idk

[drifting lintel]

Like I still believe looping is drifter's power, and that thrax can do it because he's the conceptual embodiment of drifter being scared of the outside world.

But that looping wasn't started until drifter died over and over.

[pale cedar]

Drifter didn't make Thrax do anything Thrax chose to be jealous

[tall echo]

I'm mentally done at this point, leaving convo, don't ping me any further

[main arch]

True.

[main arch]

And true.

You're both correct.

[twin wigeon]

?!

[main arch]

Drifter made Duviri and its denizens, Thrax is the ugly Carl Jungian shadow of the Drifter made manifest via conceptual embodiment.

As such, Thrax has similar level of authority over Duviri than the Drifter, but with FAR more awareness to his void powers, more than the Drifter.

[drifting lintel]

That's what I've been getting at most of the times I mention duviri but nobody listens. They nitpick at the tiny details I get wrong and miss the part where I just explain the metaphor that duviri was.

[main arch]

And Albrecht made the 1999 one day before the explosion loop before Drifter stepped in and expanded it to a whole year

It's... that simple.

[ionic moss]

Duvari is spiraling, and so is this conversation. Weeeee!

[twin wigeon]

and so is my head!

[ionic moss]

Haha

[fast dew]

Oh a second cephalon

[main arch]

And so is my weine- AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[twin wigeon]

https://tenor.com/view/timeloop-warframe-begin-again-begin-again-gif-170084454081808753

[drifting lintel]

And I admit, I was wrong earlier. I thought Albrecht just used time travel to get to 1999, and that it looked like a loop to drifter due to the times he popped into the day.

The first time he arrived late, if it was a time loop it's a little weird that it would even matter that he was late.
That was my thought process.

[main arch]

Late because Wally now knows where the loop is, and most likely, HE is the reason the Hex struggled to get along with one another.

And manipulated the outcomes of the events to lead to the bad ending.

[drifting lintel]

Then why does it matter to arrive on time?
Just ride the wave of the loop to the start of the day.

[main arch]

The loop being a likely counteract against that UNTIL the Drifter arrives to stop it

And help the Hex get along, and finally turn the tide in their favor.

[ionic moss]

Hmmm, can someone explain to me the difference between Dualism and Eternalism?

[main arch]

Cause, again, Drifter needs to befriend every protoframe to grow as a person.

[fast dew]

Dualism is a religion

Eternalism is a theory of time

[ionic moss]

Dualism was mentioned iirc by the orokin

[drifting lintel]

No that was presentism

[fast dew]

It was outlawed by them

[ionic moss]

Somewhere looks at scribbled notes

[fast dew]

Presentism, eternalism was mentioned by Euleria Entrati

[strange plinth]

phased out by the orokin in favor of the 'vain faith'
(worshipping the orokin as 'golden lords')
ballas did mention it iirc

[main arch]

Didn't R O A C H mention something like that too?

[strange plinth]

prolly

[ionic moss]

Fair, so now the question is the 1999 timeline part of Eternalism or Presentism?

[fast dew]

He did. Roach also calls monogamous people heathens

[misty helm]

Ballas mentions it on the vitruvian indeed

[main arch]

OH MY GOD 🤣

[ionic moss]

Lol

[drifting lintel]

Did you pay attention in class during the new war?

[main arch]

Nah relationship type shaming is crazy

[strange plinth]

eternalism
TNW has a section about the 'issues' with presentism

[fast dew]

Like shut up roach you were a concubine

[ionic moss]

No i did not,pardon me i was busy shooting sentients

[main arch]

Not a good comeback. If he were in a mono ship, then that's something else.

[drifting lintel]

There was a class section. Where it gave you a short lecture and quiz about Temporal axiums

[fast dew]

I have been slowly refusing tk call roathe his name

[pale cedar]

Roache

[fast dew]

Roach.

Disgust.

I like most types of cockroaches. Weird but I do not hate them

Roach doesn't fall under that category

[misty helm]

He does have an interesting point on Wally's nature, though 👀

[fast dew]

Yeah. But not an original one he came up with himself. A good point regardless

[ionic moss]

Roathe, ahhh what a lovely fellow. It saddens me about what happened to him. Living forever as a warframe. I bet he misses the luxurious orokin lifestyle.

[drifting lintel]

Presentism: the theory of time that the present is all that exists. The past is destroyed as we move past it and the future is yet to exist. Proven false by the discovery of the void.

Eternalism: the theory of time that everything that could happen did happen, and that you only need to change your frame of reference to see the alternative outcomes.

[fast dew]

... I have some choice words for roach.

[drifting lintel]

Why does everyone hate roath?

[main arch]

I mean given he was a part of the human equivalent to the fricken Eldar from 40k, likely does LMAO

[fast dew]

He is. A genocidal, classist asshole?

[misty helm]

Well, so are we in a sense

We did offed countless souls

[drifting lintel]

Isn't the whole point of the conversations with him that he was raised in that environment and he can still grow to be different?

[strange turtle]

Dualism is religion and philosophy, centred on the Duality of existence. Sun/Moon and Sol/Lua, Mind/Body, Fire/Water, Space/Time, Solid/Fluid, Pure/Impure, etc you get the idea.

Most importantly and recently, it posited that this extended to, let’s call it Realspace, and the Void. A dimension that is full of substance, and a dimension that is empty, void.

Eternalism is the idea that every possibility is happening, and that the past, present and future are equally real

[fast dew]

Yeah no that doesn't stop the fact he still will call a grineer a slur

[main arch]

Roathe is a good embodiment of a certain quote.

"To be born good, or to be born evil and to overcome your nature?"

[drifting lintel]

After we're done with him he's the second one.

[main arch]

Everything is true separately from everything else.

[drifting lintel]

At the start? When he was evil? Before he goes through his redemption arc?

[misty helm]

Naturally, the difference being he wasn't necessarily 'born evil', he chose to be backstabbing and conniving garbage to survive in Orokin society and now he's somehow getting second-thoughts on all of it

[main arch]

What CHANGES that is will. Will that commands power over time, space and causality to change it.

[ionic moss]

Whats causality?

[twin wigeon]

cause and effect

[drifting lintel]

Cause and effect

[main arch]

Cause and effect. Karma.

[ionic moss]

Hmmm, interesting.

[drifting lintel]

He was raised evil. It wasn't until after he was literally reborn into a devil that he got the chance to be good.

[main arch]

You open the door, and as an effect, it is opened. Why was the door then closed? Because it was open.

Every cause has its effect, and every effect its cause.

[ionic moss]

Can warframes eat dinner or are they never hungry?

[drifting lintel]

Rhino did once ...

[main arch]

Ask Grendel. Or Rhino.

[ionic moss]

Must have been nice lol.

[fast dew]

No. He does it redeemed or villain.

It doesn't matter. He'll do it.

[main arch]

To be fair, Tenno get called slurs quite often lmao

[fast dew]

vat rat. he calls Vor a glorified Vat rat.

[drifting lintel]

Idk if he even knows the actual name for them.

[fast dew]

And before anyone starts, I also dont like daughter for saying it too

... the grineer?

[main arch]

And we get called maggots and scum lmao

[fast dew]

He used the grineer to further the genocide against the sentients lol

[fast dew]

Thats. Not a slur i don't think

[drifting lintel]

He was born in orokin society. None of them actually called the grineer the grineer.

[fast dew]

Thats just an insult

[main arch]

To be fair, he was ordered.

[drifting lintel]

It is. They're the only group that gets called that.

[fast dew]

... maggot.

[main arch]

Or void devils lmao

[fast dew]

As in the larve.

The fly larve.

[misty helm]

I think they probably go hungry as every other living organism, but they probably feed in a different manner; they were designed to become weapons of war and potentially mass destruction. Their feeding processes are probably through the Helmith.

Proto-warframes (not the Hex strain, but the very early version of said thing) probably fed like every other infestation-crazed abomination (see Rhino Prime codex)

[drifting lintel]

Yeah. And they're the only group that we know for sure gets called maggots.

Because in the vats they kinda look like them.

[dark compass]

Rhino Prime maniacally stuffing himself full of Argon Burger

[fast dew]

The only reason its mainly us who gets called a maggot. Is bevause we are the only one who really interact with the one or two grineer that call us that

[drifting lintel]

Huh?

[main arch]

We also get called freaks a lot.

[ionic moss]

So before the entire infestation ordeal warframes where just ordinary humans with weapons. Do we apply Eternalism here?

[main arch]

No. They were full frames but still retained sentience, but the infestation was slowly eating away at their minds and making them go berserk

With a few possible exceptions.

[ionic moss]

But how can they be warframes with sentience already if the reason they became warframes in the first place was with the helminth

[fast dew]

Generally, as a rule, eternalism isnt something we use

[ionic moss]

Beats me

[main arch]

Being a warframe doesn't exempt you from sentience, the problem is that infestation eating that out of you.

[drifting lintel]

Also um... I don't see that on the wiki, do you have a picture so I can see the context?

[misty helm]

Warframes, like so, would be the perfected process of infesting someone with a strain that enhances the subject without the infestation screwing it too much, sentience included.

[fast dew]

It wouldnt be on his quote page

Hold on

[drifting lintel]

Yeah I was looking at his Kim messages page

[strange turtle]

No?

We’re not genocidal. We’re against specific groups, because they’re militaristic conquerors and enslavers that oppress people, but as long as their people themselves aren’t bad too we’re more than fine with them.

We’re just, not classist. Idek where that’s meant to be coming from

And while individual Tenno could maybe be assholes, we don’t exactly know enough to say that, and ours isn’t shown to be one either.

[misty helm]

On that line, you can give or take and you have a good timeline point to diference very-early prototypes and late-ones (the glorious Primes)

[ionic moss]

Ok so what were those humans like before the infestation came around and made them warframes is what i'm asking

[strange turtle]

Normal humans?

[misty helm]

Objectively speaking, we are a genocidal beign if you just take an honest look at the operator's kill count

[pale cedar]

We didn't even genocide the Orokin it was more like Classicide

[ionic moss]

Yes humans that were subjected to the helminth

[misty helm]

Moral things apart, we killed a bunch of people.

[fast dew]

I can excuse the tenno. They're children. They did not know any better.

[ionic moss]

Anyone knows?

[misty helm]

At some point they stopped being children 💀

[fast dew]

No.

[drifting lintel]

The tenno do know better since they've been fighting for centuries.

[fast dew]

No amount of trauma stops them from being children

Where's the eleanor line

Nemesis go find it

[misty helm]

And if we go into a pure-biological basis, I don't even know what they are, because humans grow and naturally mature... the zariman kids don't change, they're almost eternal

[strange turtle]

That’s not what genocide is

[drifting lintel]

I wasn't saying trauma, I was saying that they've mentally been going for centuries. Their bodies paused but they're mentally older than most everyone in the origin system.

[fast dew]

They. Were in cryo

[strange turtle]

That was just because they were in stasis

[fast dew]

Eh

[strange turtle]

We know they age because of Rell

[restive river]

The Tenno don’t age cause they were in cryosleep, they’re literally called humans

[fast dew]

Mental maturity doesn't mean much when your body has the hormonal mess of a 12-17 year old

[strange turtle]

The only special thing we know about their biology is that they have “void-saturated DNA”

[misty helm]

From a general perspective of the Tenno, we did hunted the Orokin till they were no more 👀

[ionic moss]

So are you all saying the operator is dead?

[drifting lintel]

They're in cryo but they do still think and mentally change due to their interactions through the Warframe.

[restive river]

Thank you piece of Wally

[strange turtle]

Not a race

They were the ruling class, and we revolted

[restive river]

They aren’t a race
It’d more so be classicide

[restive river]

Their experiences are older than their brains and bodies due to cryosleep

[drifting lintel]

They still know better

[fast dew]

Not. Really

[misty helm]

Define race, then

In an Orokin-era context

[ionic moss]

Well the operator could be look at the zariman crew members they are all void ghosts

[fast dew]

They have this. Fighting for their life feeling iirc

They cannot separate themselves from the frame before they are awoken

You wake up, and a strange woman tells you to kill

And you don't stop.

[restive river]

The Orokin aren’t a biological race, they’re a class of BODY HOPPING upper class tyrants who have mastery over biology.
They don’t breed to reproduce when a single Orokin’s genetics don’t even stay the same throughout their very long life (due to hopping bodies on a whim)

[fast dew]

You stop, you die. Yhats what they felt.

[strange turtle]

any one of the groups that humans are often divided into based on physical traits regarded as common among people of shared ancestry

[drifting lintel]

Also um... f*ck Captain Vor.

[fast dew]

Yeah and

You dont call someone thats shitty a slur regardless

[misty helm]

Important part: **In the Orokin-era context **

[ionic moss]

And trasference is oddly similar to possession a ghost entering a living body

[restive river]

They aren’t a race.

[strange turtle]

…why would it have changed?

[pale cedar]

What is it with everyone thinking the Orokin are a race

They're very clearly a class

[restive river]

Ghosts ain’t real

[strange turtle]

You say “in an Orokin era context”

That ain’t a thing

[pale cedar]

Holdfasts

[restive river]

They don’t possess people

[pale cedar]

Still ghosts

[main arch]

They are ghosts in a fashion.

[drifting lintel]

Even in an orokin era context the orokin are just a class of people.

They may have implemented a religion that claimed they were gods, but that's not a race.

[restive river]

By definition, yes lol

[drifting lintel]

Same way thrax is a ghost of drifter as a child...

[ionic moss]

Isnt nora night mentioning a phrase about gods and ghosts?

[strange turtle]

DE hasn’t written some, redefined definition of race for their worldbuilding. Race itself wasn’t even a factor until 1999, unless you count the various established groups/civilisations as races

[restive river]

No…
Thrax is a character from the book

[main arch]

They are constructs based on their oro upon death, so they are ghosts

[drifting lintel]

I'm not doing this shit again.

[ionic moss]

Lol

[pale cedar]

Holdfasts ain't got no Oro

[restive river]

Based on their memories and emotions
Idk where you’re pulling Oro from LOL

We still don’t even know if Oro is actually real yet, that kinda just muddies things

[main arch]

Eh my definition of a soul is a bit too objective.

[restive river]

Also they’re conceptual embodiments, meaning emotions and concepts played into their creation
Not their oro

[restive river]

Yeah this isn’t their soul being remade by the void :p

[ionic moss]

Ok so if Tennos are ghosts then is it same to assume the drifter is the real one?

[drifting lintel]

Yeah oro was never mentioned in holdfast lore.
Oro is at best a way to say mind. In which case I guess? But that's the same as saying sentient hiveminds share oro, or saying a cephalon holds someone's oro.

[pale cedar]

Which of you CE the Holdfasts?

[main arch]

I like to think otherwise. Their oro being a collection of their memories and emotions, personality, and other likewise character traits.

[restive river]

It seems that, for some reason Wally conceptually embodied up the Holdfasts, meaning concepts and emotions not their soul or oro

[ionic moss]

Safe*

[misty helm]

Various factors. The main one being time. The Orokin-era is basically in a quite distant future and their own technology, as well as their own cultural practices clearly involved messing with their own bodies a lot. Their own physical and shared traits (like the characteristic blue skin they all seemed to have) starts to create a clear deviation of what they are in relation to the rest of the non-tweaked humans

[restive river]

We don’t know what Oro solidly is, you can think otherwise but we don’t have hard
Anything on that

[drifting lintel]

What? When was that implied?

The tenno aren't dead.

[pale cedar]

Oro might not even be a real thing

[restive river]

They aren’t ghosts

[ionic moss]

Well the Zariman has only ghosts

[restive river]

The Holdfasts came AFTER the Tenno were saved

[main arch]

Ghost children. Void Angels. How much science you wanna try force to the Void?

Beyond eternalism that is.

[strange turtle]

Those are body mods, fashion trends

[drifting lintel]

The zaramin is the same as duviri.
It's full of creatures made from conceptual embody-
Holy shit drifter made the holdfasts didn't they?

[pale cedar]

And Tenno
And Albrecht
And Wally
And Angels
And Murmur units

Plenty of non ghosts

[restive river]

It’s implied Wally did it actually from what I remember

[drifting lintel]

Tbf Angels are just warped ghosts

[misty helm]

Exactly, but they were so engraved in their culture; Orokin culture, that it already bequeted in the term itself. To be Orokin, already carries at least the suggestion of certain specific physical traits, beyond the fact of just having money.

[strange turtle]

And, you’re proposing something purely hypothetical and presenting it like it’s some fact that needs to be accounted for

[restive river]

I can see Wally conceptually embodying the crew back as void ghosts, their own lingering emotions being what helped to form them
Though they were all incomplete, missing their memories
Hungry

We don’t know if he can factually command the Angels but if he can then he made an army on purpose

[fast dew]

Mm. Like Wally himself. Incomplete.

[drifting lintel]

All I remember about them is that they are conceptual embodiment recreations of the original crew, they feel the call of TMitW which turned them into angels, and that they came after the deal was made.

[strange turtle]

“Oh what is considered as race might’ve changed so we have to consider that” what was considered relationship practice could also have changed, that wouldn’t make postulating about how actually they could have been polygamous valid before we actually got any evidence

[restive river]

Yup
They feel the song calling via the finger
They eat from it and boom, Angel

[pale cedar]

Wally has never been seen commanding the Angels and the only source of that info is from a proven unreliable narrator

[main arch]

The Tenno are quite literally Void warlocks, saturated by the Void to the point of appear spirit like.

Albrecht is the first person to come across this logic defying dimension, and as such, he's more akin to its own... John Constantine if you may (Frick that sticks because he's also gae)

Wally is uh... Literally Warframe's own version of Tzeentch. Lmao.

The Angels are more or less the dead transformed into void demons.

And the Murmur are literally demons made of the dust of dead universes.

[restive river]

Tbh he wouldn’t need to command them, he just needs to release them in an area
They’re like an army of rabid dogs who hunger for one thing

[fast dew]

Now this is total headcanon but I like to think that when wally mimics someone he's like. Mandela Catalogue alternate style yk

[drifting lintel]

Either he's commanding them or the angels are the "natural" result of a conceptual embodiment creature eating wally.

[ionic moss]

I think. If you will allow me. That the void angels are from the in-between realities not in the origin system and not from duviri but from the in between realm

[misty helm]

If they were not a 'race' by itself, nor an ethnic group (assuming the blue-skin trait was actively added and not heredated when two blue-skinned genetically modified Orokin-humans had offspring), they clearly were at least a social/cultural group that we virtually erased 💀

[restive river]

He’s pretty 1:1 with it, which makes more sense tbh since he wants what we got

The fragmented are dealbreakers

[strange turtle]

Yeah. A social class.

[main arch]

The Fragmented bosses even have demon-like names.

[fast dew]

The eyes being off are my favourite part that could be seen as slightly uncanny yk

[drifting lintel]

I thought the murmur was a combination of wally making human body and seeing the process of sentiment splintering when they slipped through.

[misty helm]

By -an stretched- definition then, it's genocide.

[main arch]

That is true. And in the process he's just making demons.

[drifting lintel]

The rift? No that's limbo's spot.

[main arch]

Demonic abominations composed of dead universal dust.

[restive river]

Not even an assumption, the blue skin is not a racial trait.
And yes they are a social/culture group, one akin to tyrants, billionaires, the rich and powerful that are beyond anything and believe they are owed everything.
Classicide or not, they had it coming.

[fast dew]

I really need to draw wally as my operator but like

Make it slightly off

[pale cedar]

If anything he doesn't need to because they just follow the largest food source

[drifting lintel]

When did we get dead universal dust?
I thought that was just void being void.

[fast dew]

Where's that one roach drawing

[ionic moss]

Limbos rift is another different pocket dimension if i recall correctly

[main arch]

READ THE TEMPORAL DUST DESCRIPTION. sorry

[ionic moss]

He mathed himself out

[restive river]

I wonder if he tries to get the eyes right but particularly struggles for some reason

[fast dew]

The. Temporal dust description

[strange turtle]

By your logic, if idk, german nobles had full body tattoos and practiced foot binding, a revolution on them’d be an attempted genocide too

[fast dew]

Maybe he struggles cus Albrecht got his eyes blasted out

[restive river]

LOL

[smoky gulch]

Huh, an artifact. Back before we started dreamin' of curse of three

[drifting lintel]

Sorry I must have missed it. Where do I collect said dust? I assume the sanctum.

[pale cedar]

He's not actually commanding them they only care about their food source

[restive river]

Isleweaver iirc

[main arch]

These things are dead ass demonic sentient constructs made of dead universal dust

[restive river]

It’s the animating agent, not how they’re made
Which is neat :]

[fast dew]

||https://www.tumblr.com/nephiieatsuranium/806194343669088256/oh-no?source=share||
Spoilered bcs Roathe is kinda spooky, but this. Is what i like to think what wally looks like when he tries to look like a person

the amaurot dumpsite™️

oh, no!...

Tumblr · Jan 19, 2026, 6:20 PM

[misty helm]

Yeah, that ethical question aside (the fact they had it coming), if they were considered their own group (the blue skinned freaks that had glowing eyes and a long arm who are very rich) then we kinda fell in the 'systematic destruction of a group of people' thing

[restive river]

Not made of dead universal dust, animated by it

[strange turtle]

It’s not a question

DE literally use the Entrati as a mouthpiece to say it

[restive river]

A group that again, are akin to tyrant billionaires

Eat the rich

[main arch]

Mate. Look at the sands in Wally's realm, look at the textures on the murmur, look at the Temporal Dust appearance in the image I just sent, and then look at me in the eyes XD

[drifting lintel]

That thing has a shattered blue strand in it. Is it the result of Wally's deal with us? Where he killed all the other timelines?

[main arch]

That isn't a shard. That's a strand of entropy.

[ionic moss]

Dead universal dust huh? So murmur is a plain of their own. Interesting

[restive river]

Yeah I have eyes :p

[misty helm]

I don't think they were just 'akin', but literally tyrant trillionares

[restive river]

Idk if I’d call them a whole plain

[ionic moss]

Do you think void angels have their own universe as well?

[restive river]

YES lol

[main arch]

Whole realm.

A realm made of dead universes.

[drifting lintel]

I'm talking about the strands of khra

[restive river]

I wouldn’t call the Murmur themselves a realm

[drifting lintel]

No

[ionic moss]

Why not?

[main arch]

No that's what their realm is. Wally's realm lmao

[restive river]

The strands of khra are what Wally is bound to cause he lost his finger

[main arch]

Because we find out how the angels are made.

[restive river]

Which is just the void, or an offshoot of the void like Granum’s or Duviri

[pale cedar]

It's the edge of the Void

[restive river]

Which to clarify are conceptually embodied void ghosts feeding off of Wally’s finger which turns them into Angels

[ionic moss]

What is the void exactly if not a realm or universe in itself

[drifting lintel]

Yes I'm posting that wally might have shattered the other strands when he made the deal with the operator. (We see them all dying)
He also may have done the same thing with the void trader (he did ask to be the only one)

[main arch]

That yes. The entropy is what animates them. The dust composes them.

[fast dew]

Its nothing

The void is nothing but something

An impossible colour

[main arch]

A dimension.

[fast dew]

Whew meds are finally beating my ass

[restive river]

He was bound to the strands ever since his first encounter with Albrecht
Also the Strands are just conceptually embodied timelines, void renderings of time

[fast dew]

Loid. Loid explanation

[ionic moss]

Well if the void is nothing it is still a thing because there is "void" angels that comes from there right?

[main arch]

Right and wrong.

[ionic moss]

And said nothing(void angels) cannot be born from a universe of nothing

[restive river]

“The dust of decayed universes, rich in entropy.” The dust itself is what’s rich in entropy, they are animated by the dust

[drifting lintel]

He's connected to all the strands that have his fingers in them. He could have shattered a lot of strands but been unable to touch the ones he's not in.

[strange turtle]

Kermeros has a line where he talks about his dead fiancee and goes “oh don’t get me wrong we totally deserved it though”. Half of Roathe’s whole KIM is about him going “yeah we were pretty bad but I totally could’ve fixed it”

[misty helm]

It also has specific traits to it, like literally 'void energy' and the fact we can travel through it

[restive river]

The strands aren’t just every timeline, they need to be tethered down by his fragmented.

[misty helm]

Dimension sounds like it

[main arch]

The Angels are what happens to the Zariman crew after they died and reborn by the Void. They were corrupted and thus transformed INTO the Void Angels.

The Void Angels don't just spawn. Or at least not in that way. They more so are simply crew members remade by the Void and then corrupted.

[ionic moss]

Thats a causality thing im talking about the universe(void) not the end result of it

[restive river]

The void by itself is nothing
Thanks to Albrecht it has a usable energy
Everything that comes from it comes from the void reacting to concepts and emotions from a being

The angels are conceptually embodied crew members from the Zariman who have succumb to Wally’s song

[restive river]

I mean they aren’t actually the crew, but yes

[drifting lintel]

His fingers are in every possible timeline after the point of them getting cut off.

He then makes a deal where he destroys all except 2 timelines.

Then the strands, of conceptually embodied time, that were destroyed, are left to turn to dust.

[main arch]

The Void is a malleable dimension. It was called that because at the beginning it had nothing, not until Albrecht looked into it and possibly made a part of it sentient due to it being receptive of people's thoughts, emotions, and feelings.

[fast dew]

The thing is with the void

[restive river]

I don’t think you’re understanding what I said
The strands of khra aren’t every possible timeline they are just conceptually embodied timelines, one that his Fragmented tether to real time so that he may enter and interact

[main arch]

It is a mercurial dimension that reacts to us.

[restive river]

Belric and Rania for instance

Love so strong the void said sure, have a tunnel of love

[ionic moss]

I think the requiems is just some incantation to open up a portal and nothing more

[dark compass]

That stupid song is still in my head

[midnight ice]

tunnel of hellfire and misery and Collect My Crystals

[twin wigeon]

norp

[ionic moss]

I wouldn't go as far as saying requiems are seperate timeline all together

[main arch]

They are the Void's glyphs, likely created by Albrecht as to assign different things a symbol

[restive river]

They are literally individual voidtongue words lol

[restive river]

He discovered voidtongue, he didn’t make it

[pale cedar]

It's nothing till humans do human things

[main arch]

I don't think it makes much sense that the Void has always had them prior to his arrival.

Unless Wally made them after the fact

Which then yeah that'd make sense.

[restive river]

It’s implied Wally made them lol

[twin wigeon]

wally probably just made them

[drifting lintel]

What exactly is voidtongue by the way?

It shouldn't... exist.

[restive river]

Void language

Basically magic words

[twin wigeon]

its a language... made by and spoken by things that conventionally shouldn't exist

[restive river]

Best use of them was Ris being used in the 1999 ARG

[ionic moss]

The Void tongue is the ancient language that the rock man is speaking

Wally learned it

[main arch]

Me when I finally convince people Warframe isn't entirely a SciFi. But rather a science fantasy like Warhammer 40k

[restive river]

Well we don’t know if it’s ancient

[restive river]

He possibly made it

[ionic moss]

I mean albretch

[drifting lintel]

Yeah but why does the void have a language?

Wally is the first intelligent thing in that universe and he's a conceptual embodiment of Albrecht's indifference.
It should be speaking English... But it isn't.

[twin wigeon]

or our nickname, Mara Lohk which likely means void demon

[misty helm]

The Void and all the conceptual embodiment shenanigans are basically Mage: the Ascension, then

[restive river]

Why our mom or the cavia calling us demon

Mara meaning demon has never made actual sense lol

[main arch]

https://tenor.com/view/warframe-lavos-prime-warframe-lavos-prime-gif-10451338502002196188

[ionic moss]

I dont think albretch made the void language, he just learned to use it

[twin wigeon]

bc, we're demonic

in our capacity

[drifting lintel]

That's literally how it works.
Operators are mages, the void is just how mages get their powers.

[restive river]

No?

[main arch]

Mara likely meant child not... That lmao

[restive river]

That’s what I’m saying!

[main arch]

To be honest IN A FASHION we are lmao

[drifting lintel]

No lol. Ballas gave the void demon their name.

[main arch]

We are synonymous to demons, not actually demons.

[twin wigeon]

we've toppled a whole caste system that has ruled for several thousand years

[restive river]

In a fashion sure, but Lotus wouldn’t call us that nor the Cavia lol

[strange turtle]

somehow the Alchemy, soul and vitality stuff and magic twin bonds weren’t enough on their own

[restive river]

And?
We’re still children lol

[misty helm]

Confirmed, Wally can be beaten by creating the Technocracy 🤝

[restive river]

Children that in a way are born of the void

[twin wigeon]

we just a baby :3

[ionic moss]

So if Albretch learned the void language then he must have had conversations with either 1. Wally or 2. His twin

[main arch]

DUDE I SWEAR I KEEP TRYNA TELL PEOPLE BUT IT'S JUST ME TALKING TO BRICK WALLS

[drifting lintel]

Wally is his twin

[main arch]

AAAAAHHHH

[restive river]

Wally is the twin and he just learned it by listening it seems

[ionic moss]

Are you sure?

[restive river]

Yes

[strange turtle]

Albrecht also only partially knows it

[drifting lintel]

Yes
The fingers that wally is after were cut off of Albrecht's twin.

[ionic moss]

But wally and albretch look nothing like twins

[main arch]

I HAVE A PROPOSITION ABOUT WALLY. HERE YE HERE YE!

[ionic moss]

Lol

[midnight ice]

i find it neat that voidtongue communicates in pure concepts. reminds me of chinese hanzi

[restive river]

The Cavia know voidtongue
They had an encounter with Wally

[restive river]

Same :]

[strange turtle]

That or he learned at some point post-Cavia

[restive river]

Though we do have the negative prefix of Ka

(KaRis being Darkness rather than Light)

[ionic moss]

Why do y'all say wally is albretchs twin when they clearly look different. That baffles me.

[restive river]

What

Wally can shape change

[drifting lintel]

I don't think the cavia know it per say, but they got stuck speaking it due to the void exposure.
The gargoyle translates voidtongue to English... Somehow

[ionic moss]

Source?

[restive river]

He’s literally always been the twin, the other

[restive river]

Him appearing as us to us
Him appearing as both Albrecht and us in one instance
Him showing up to Baro as Baro or to Yonta as Yonta
His Murmur
His Wall form
Literally the first moment he met Albrecht he took his shape

[drifting lintel]

Because Albrecht's twin got their fingers cut off and wally specifically wants his fingers back so he can leave this timeline.

[restive river]

Albrecht literally called the other that man trapped in that wall LOL

[pale cedar]

“Was it I who escaped or the other”

[main arch]

Wally is based on Choronzon.

A demon of the abyss in occult practices like Thelema, who has no form of his own because he is the embodiment of ego-death

That horrible, miserable feeling you get when you can no longer hold your ego with confidence, and your sense of what and who you are is broken down.

That chaotic uncertainty and existential crisis. The unconscious shadow of Carl Jung that embodies all things you do NOT like about yourself and actively go out of your way to repress and suppress.

That is what Wally is, and why he constantly switches forms from person to person.

[ionic moss]

Where is that written i'd like to see a passage that specifically implies that

[restive river]

Might be better to say you theorize he’s based off that

[pale cedar]

Albrecht's requiem logs

[strange turtle]

They did but it’s like 10 messages ago

[restive river]

We literally watched Wally swap between several forms in the Hex quest lol

[midnight ice]

are you talking about "albrechts twin" and "wally" as two different things

[drifting lintel]

Several things are embodiments of people's unconscious shadow

[dire mountain]

Considering the way he can show up as the operator, showed up as Albrecht, Baro, and the Vagabond?

[fast dew]

Loid too

[main arch]

That's true, but at the same time, it is very evident once you know the context. There are no confirmations mind you, but that's just how I put two and two together.

[drifting lintel]

My sentence was drawing the equals sign between the two.

[main arch]

And Wally is a more nuanced one. He's more encompassing than the rest of the things in the Void.

[restive river]

It can be very evident and still be a theory

[drifting lintel]

Yes. I just assume it's because he's the first.

[main arch]

Ik, again, not stating that's canon, just stating the two are very alike

[pale cedar]

Albrecht is so paranoid about his encounter with Wally he thinks it was Wally who escaped(the other) rather than himself

[fast dew]

Like duviri being Albrecht's attempt at. Harming himself on purpose

Its pretty clear but

Its just a theory

Or like Albrecht's dead kids

[restive river]

A theory that makes sense but
Just a theory

[fast dew]

Possible dead kids

[ionic moss]

Wally is different and affects everyone has a twin appearance, if youre in operator he shows in operater form bla bla bla. And now some of you are stating that hes a shape shifter? Where is that implied specifically

[restive river]

Now is he a bad dad or…

[restive river]

Did you not play The Hex???

[fast dew]

I like to think they died in the same thing as Gerivaine

[restive river]

We literally watch him swapping forms in front of us LOL

[ionic moss]

Where?

[main arch]

Because we know it's the same Wally lmao

I mean even BARO made a deal with him.

[drifting lintel]

Because we flipping see him do it?

He's appeared as the operator, Albrecht, loid, the Russian girl idk how to spell

[restive river]

When Neci, possessed by Wally he swaps between her form, Albrechts and Loids
In two different scenes lol

[pale cedar]

And Albrecht the creator of Wally thinks after all that happened it was Wally who might've escaped not himself despite all the evidence

[midnight ice]

-# neci rusalka!

[fast dew]

Where is the

[main arch]

Neci Rusalka.

[fast dew]

I have it somewhere

[strange turtle]

Didn’t Reb confirm that though

[ionic moss]

The russian girl you saw was the twin ebil side of rusalka

[restive river]

No…

[main arch]

What the hell is this twin side you're talking about- bro it's LITERALLY WALLY.

[restive river]

That was Neci being hollowed out and possessed BY Wally

[drifting lintel]

No that was Wally possessing her.

[strange turtle]

Like you went up to her and asked and she didn’t say yes but she called them “the flock” (of dead kids)

[fast dew]

Woe

[ionic moss]

Yes thats what im saying

[dire mountain]

He literally uses both the operator and albrecht forms at the end of whispers

[main arch]

THE SAME ONE that harasses both the Operator and Albrecht.

[fast dew]

Yeah but I havr trust issues regarding creatuve directors

Hugo Martin i hate you so bad

[pale cedar]

I swear Albrecht is the only human who is visibly afraid of Wally even Operator was more startled in their first encounter rather than afraid

[ionic moss]

Wally can only reflect the evil side of us hes not a shapeshifter

[fast dew]

He is a shape shifter, watch this

[main arch]

Yes, therefore, he changes forms to reflect that.

[ionic moss]

Ugh...

[main arch]

Also dude please watch the damn clip.

[fast dew]

I pull up with cutscenes i recorded

[restive river]

His reaction to Loid’s hand 😭

[main arch]

DUDE LITERALLY SWITCHED FROM RUSALKA TO LOID

[ionic moss]

Wally is a brick wall not albretchs twin. Albretch isnt a brick wall.

[main arch]

WHAT THE HELL ELSE IS THAT?

[fast dew]

Its so. Guh yk

[drifting lintel]

Any time you see a character grin ear to ear and start having a weird whisper in the back of their speech it's wally.

[fast dew]

I wonder how Albrecht felt knowing that feeing of Loid's hand

[main arch]

God forbid a god is multi present or in multiple instances at once

[fast dew]

His stomach dropped just straight out of his entire body i feel

[ionic moss]

So are you saying albretch a human looking entity looks like a brick wall

[restive river]

Wally literally made a deal with Neci, hollowed her out and is controlling her body
From her body he can still shape shift, an ability he’s had since the Zariman when he showed up as us.

[ionic moss]

Lol

[pale cedar]

Wally doesn't even need to meet a person to look like them he copied Euleria a second after creation

[strange turtle]

I just realised he said ts to the beat of “You are late” 😭

[dire mountain]

Okay how would he switch to Loid in front of albrecht AND the drifter later on? How would bro create the whole Vagabond persona which is a whole unique model

[fast dew]

Wally changes form. Regularly. Please watch the video.

[midnight ice]

his form isnt tied to the brick wall? he can change? his form? as needed? its not always THE wall?

[main arch]

No? Because Wally isn't strictly just HIS?

[restive river]

The Wall form isn’t based on any one person, it’s based on the common perception of him
That being a man trapped in a wall

[midnight ice]

watch the cutscene video

[fast dew]

The wall might not even be his true form

[pale cedar]

Wally doesn't have a true form

[restive river]

Wally likely doesn’t have a true form

[fast dew]

Please 😭

[ionic moss]

Ok so when is Albretch gonna shapeshift into a brick wall?

[misty helm]

🌈 ✨ The power of love ✨ 🌈

[main arch]

SOMEONE SAID IT.

[ionic moss]

They are twins right?

[restive river]

What are you talking about

[midnight ice]

what

[restive river]

Remove the twin idea from your brain

[pale cedar]

When Albrecht stops being a human

[main arch]

AGAIN WALLY ISN'T HIS OWN FRICKEN PERSONAL SLEEP PARALYSIS DEMON OR SOMETHING.

[ionic moss]

You guts brought it lol i didnt

Guys*

[drifting lintel]

Yes you did!

[main arch]

WHO TF

[dire mountain]

Albrecht waxes poetic a lot they are not literally twins he was saying that because it took the form of him

[drifting lintel]

You brought it up right here!

[ionic moss]

Thanks gor the clarification caesar

I understand now, its a metaphor

[pale cedar]

Albrecht says “a twin but no brother”

So he's not even calling Wally an actual twin

[misty helm]

As much as a twin as your own reflection in the mirror

[dire mountain]

How did you just take the mr waxing poetic guy at face value here 😭

[restive river]

Wally can literally take the form of whatever he wants
He shows up as us, Albrecht, Loid, Baro, Yonta, the Vagabond and uses Neci’s hollowed out mind/body in a way similar to how we use Warframes

[fast dew]

Albrecht canonically keeps tortured love poetry

[pale cedar]

Again

A Twin but no brother

[ionic moss]

I do like poems also

[drifting lintel]

TMitW literally took the form of a man in a wall to mess with the operator.

Because rell called him the man in the wall.

[restive river]

The Orokin were very poetic lol

[fast dew]

Maybe he even writes it..

Hr keeps old ass poetry too

[restive river]

He likely took the form based on the individual perceptions, he is a being of the void

[dire mountain]

Poetry group with Albrecht, the gravemind, and the lekgolo

[restive river]

Aka he thinks it’s funny

[ashen pulsar]

yeah

[fast dew]

He does shit for shits n giggled

[ashen pulsar]

he’s mocking us

[ionic moss]

Ok so when are we gonna see albretch turn into a brick wall though?

[ashen pulsar]

that’s why he’s the vitruvian man, he’s mocking science too

[restive river]

Like murder and then making ghosts of those he murdered just to have them chomp on some fingy juice

[restive river]

Where are you getting that

[ashen pulsar]

I’m confused

[restive river]

He’s not confined to what he’s already seen 😭

[ionic moss]

Wally and Albretch are twins right?

[restive river]

The Murmur are his attempt at being more like us

[fast dew]

https://tenor.com/view/gato-withrock-gif-27341353

[restive river]

Are you serious?

[drifting lintel]

We just explained ....

[fast dew]

Man I cannot tell if this is my mefs or not

[ashen pulsar]

no? wally’s more of an incomplete clone
with void magic

[restive river]

Remove it from your brain

[ionic moss]

No im just messing with yall chill lol

[restive river]

Deep void.

You’ll know what Wally is personally

[ashen pulsar]

I’m gonna put you in a reliquary drive

[fast dew]

Im gonna

[ionic moss]

Jokes aside, what do yall think deimos is hidding?

[dire mountain]

Me when I get you

[restive river]

Wdym

[fast dew]

The labs

[ashen pulsar]

uhhh albert’s labs

[fast dew]

The labs are. Huge

[drifting lintel]

The heart

[ashen pulsar]

mm that too

[restive river]

Literally too big to physically be inside that moon btw

[fast dew]

Huge. Reverse rowers?

[restive river]

Void rooms go brrrrr

[strange turtle]

A kidney

[restive river]

Oh wait that’s probably how Wally’s getting in

[drifting lintel]

A good chunk of the lab is probably in the void.

[dire mountain]

I mean the labs are probably still hiding things but I couldn't guess what

[fast dew]

Rowers... im speaking like. Scooby doo dawg

[strange turtle]

Perhaps multiple kidneys

[ashen pulsar]

cuz void oooo

[ionic moss]

Is that void we see in the heart of deimos the same void as the zariman what yall think

[restive river]

It’s excellent for making rooms

[fast dew]

Albrecht stealing organs wouldnt ge surprising

[restive river]

Its all the same void

[dire mountain]

The ragebait goes crazy

[ashen pulsar]

void isn’t a concrete location

[ionic moss]

How can we be sure about it though

[restive river]

There’s different “places” in the void but it’s all the same vast untime and unspace

[strange turtle]

I meant the Infestation’s but that also workd

[drifting lintel]

The void is the void.

There are different areas in the void, such as the kingdom of duviri, Albrechts labe, etc. but it's the same void.

[restive river]

I’m gonna make a void twin of you

[ionic moss]

Haha

[main arch]

Duck. He's just Nekros but scaled up.

[restive river]

He was growing BIG organs

[pale cedar]

He has

He took entire bodies with organs

[strange turtle]

Can I have a Void twin too

[restive river]

Maybe later

[fast dew]

He defo stole one of Roach's kidneys

[restive river]

Not even a headcanon

[pale cedar]

Took his ability to use a few organs

[misty helm]

What were the vessels for, though? Warframes 2.0?

[fast dew]

Mhm

[pale cedar]

Big Warframes

[ashen pulsar]

for Wally combat

[restive river]

Big Warframe for fighting Big Wall Man

[fast dew]

And ones that didn't go insane

[drifting lintel]

Btw wally is only as powerful as he is because he's the first.
Thrax showed up second along with drifter.

[restive river]

We still don’t know why he made the protos LOL

[main arch]

I feel like a Lavos protoframe would know how exactly to prevent himself from succumbing to the infestation and instead control the stage of it as his own leisure.

[restive river]

That’s def made up and not why he’s more powerful lol

[misty helm]

For the power of love ✨ 🌈

[drifting lintel]

To force Drifter to connect with them

[ionic moss]

Thrax is a result of causality right? The deal was struck

[pale cedar]

Wally only got more powerful because of a blue man

[restive river]

Probably, but he came to the conclusion of 1999 specifically not the idea of protoframes via his equations

[ionic moss]

One lives the other dies

[restive river]

We don’t know why 1999 or actually why he made the protos

[ashen pulsar]

he used their DNA in the vessels

[fleet furnace]

thrax i thought was conceptual embodiment, like the rest of duviri

[drifting lintel]

They're both conceptual embodiments of people's unconscious shadow

[pale cedar]

Thrax is the result of emotions

[restive river]

He came up with those AFTER he made the Protos
So
Nope

[restive river]

Thrax isn’t, Thrax is literally a character from a story
Yes Drifter’s emotions slip into what Duviri is to a degree but Thrax is still just that character

[misty helm]

Just like OG Nidus, probably.

I mean, assumig if there was even a massive-produced batch of Niduses

[strange turtle]

Thrax is a conceptual embodiment of Thrax. And also Drifter’s favourite doll but mostly the character

[pale cedar]

Warframes weren't mass-produced

[restive river]

I feel like they’d know you succumb to it no matter what lol

If any protoframe can resist it it’s prob a Dante tbh

[ionic moss]

What happened when the deal was struck? Anyone has some info on that

[pale cedar]

Nowhere in game is mass production of Warframes even mentioned

[restive river]

Operator and the Tenno got void powers
Drifter did not
Operator and the Tenno were saved
Drifter was not

[misty helm]

I use to think that. But to be fair, we have proof that there were more than one of each WF going around, if you count the Primes then even more

[main arch]

If it's Lavos it's gonna be a different story I'm sorry. If the protos get the knowledge of their powers from the original frames, Lavos proto would likely start to pick up on everything the original knew, meaning he'd have a L O T more control over his own physiology.

[restive river]

How painful do you think it is to swap helmets

[ashen pulsar]

not necessarily mass-produced but many were produced

[pale cedar]

More than one of something can be made without mass production being the case

[drifting lintel]

We've had this argument three times just today. Thrax was a character, he is also the conceptual embodiment of drifter's fear of the outside world as a scared kid.
That's why he fought to keep drifter in duviri.

[restive river]

The Hex were struggling to learn their powers after a year of having them, nothing innate about their abilities

[pale cedar]

Thrax was going to be created anyway along with the rest of Duviri

[restive river]

What fear of the outside world?
That’s entirely fabricated what lol

[ionic moss]

What was the arm that the drifter picked up exactly? Where was that from?

[misty helm]

Take 'mass producing' from me as an hyperbolic statement. I highly doubt there were enough Tenno running around to even need that many WFs, so yeah, just an exaggeration of a term

[restive river]

Lotus’ arm from the New War

Only piece of her that survived

[ionic moss]

Interesting so the lotus is dead?

[restive river]

Lotus and Operator would be dead and/or lost if not for Drifter

[pale cedar]

Many Players just throw it around non hyperbolic when there's no evidence supporting it

[strange turtle]

Wally saved “all of them” (including Operator), giving the kids, or at least The Operator, a piece of himself.

Wally saved “all of them” (excluding Drifter, “never said I’d save you”), leaving Drifter stuck on the Zariman, where they tried to use the Tales of Duviri book to regulate their emotions and CE’d Duviri instead

[main arch]

That is fair. Though if it's the original Lavos that chose to become proto then its fair game cause the man quite literally figured how to prime himself all on his own lmao

[restive river]

She kinda died, she became an Eidolon (basically a zombie) and then we fed her Archon Shards and now she’s okay enough

[main arch]

ALSO DE MECHANICAL SNAKE MEDUSA HAIR WHEN AAAAAHHHHH

I WANT MY ROBO SNAKE BRAIDS

[ionic moss]

So the tenno did die if we apply eternalism here

[ashen pulsar]

ew eternalism

[restive river]

Original Lavos can’t be a proto, that just doesn’t work at all
He didn’t start off with his powers nor with being that smart, he was already a frame and learned via Javi over time

[restive river]

No

[main arch]

No that I know. I meant if he chose to undergo a transformation.

[strange turtle]

Also he wouldn’t have the understanding of his former body to manage it anyway

[drifting lintel]

@restive river way up here.

[restive river]

Lotus would have died if not for her hand falling into Duviri
The Operator was just trapped in their own timeline
The Tenno never died in any timeline here

[misty helm]

I never understood that part of everything fully

We got stabbed, then the portal sucked our operator in... then we jump to the Drifter's POV until the end... Meanwhile what happened to the operator?

Damn, I really have to replay those quests again 💀

[strange turtle]

It’s explained on The Computer

[fast dew]

Put in a. Loop i think actually?? and relived the zariman incident

[ionic moss]

But according to eternalism

[restive river]

Operator was trapped in their own history, specifically the Zariman part

[fast dew]

Ye tbat

[pale cedar]

Trapped in a loop which Drifter broke them out of

[ionic moss]

Every instances happened life and death

[misty helm]

You're right! I had forgotten 🤦

[fast dew]

Ye

[restive river]

If Lavos as a human had the chance to become a proto he wouldn’t have that info from Javi

[ashen pulsar]

eternalism doesn’t matter

[ionic moss]

It does lol

[restive river]

What?

[ashen pulsar]

nope.

[fast dew]

Mm, If Albrecht was to proto himself i think hed choose Lavos

[pale cedar]

According to Eternalism your statement of Eternalism is irrelevant anyway because we can't access it

[strange turtle]

It doesn’t because it’s not accessible

[restive river]

It isn’t accessible so it doesn’t matter

[ashen pulsar]

there are no other realities with us anyways iirc