lore-discussion

[ashen pulsar]

and melees

[drifting lintel]

There's also the existence of cyte-09 which makes me think the base form is an "early draft" and primes are the finished ones.
The primes are made by orokin artisans while the military mass produces the earlier drafts because they're cheap.

Lavos being a prison warden was never finished, like cyte.

[ashen pulsar]

cyte was finished

[fast dew]

Ehh, no, some were just not primes

Cyte was hidden and erased post orokin collapse

[ashen pulsar]

just highly confidential, so no fancy names were needed

im curious on what other frames' batch names were

[drifting lintel]

All he has is a batch name, because he was unfinished. The artisan was working on him when the night of naga drums happened.

[fast dew]

No, he was highly confidential and got erased 😭 iirc it was in his description

[drifting lintel]

That's my thought process anyways

[fast dew]

Also, the artisan would've been ballas

[drifting lintel]

Ballas didn't make all of them.
Example being Titania

[fast dew]

Unless specified otherwise, like Qorvex, Titania and Protea, they are made by ballas

[drifting lintel]

Oh wait apparently loid found the blueprint in Albrecht's personal effects

[fast dew]

It was his project, you'd need to be super involved with him

[ashen pulsar]

source?

[drifting lintel]

The letter when loid sends the blueprint to you at the end of 1999

[fast dew]

Yeah that doesn't mean much

Albrecht has a fire extinguisher in his netracells, that man collected weird shit

[ashen pulsar]

we have very little lore on cyte, because he was so confidential. only things we know are that

1. cyte was a stealth unit commonly used for assassination-style missions
2. cyte was kept highly confidential and was lost during the fall of the orokin

[drifting lintel]

"i discovered a clandestine blueprint among my Albrecht's personal effects, for a Warframe so secret it was never named. It is yours."

[ashen pulsar]

yeah

confidential, not unfinished

[fast dew]

Again, Albrecht has a fire extinguisher in his netracells, he collects bizarre and weird shit

[drifting lintel]

I was wrong

[ashen pulsar]

wonder what cyte prime would look like, considering the fact that he's a stealth unit

[drifting lintel]

I would assume a lot like atlas prime and Excalibur umbra

[ashen pulsar]

the orokin might just go GILD HIM ANYWAYS WE NEED OUR UNSEEN STEALTH UNIT TO SEND A MESSAGE

they definitely would... ugh

[drifting lintel]

I think they would hold back a little

[ashen pulsar]

cough cough ivara cough cough

[drifting lintel]

I just realized his name is literally technocyte-09

[ashen pulsar]

wait
theoretically
cyte could've been the 9th frame created

[drifting lintel]

I guess yeah. Technocyte batch 9

[ashen pulsar]

if he's "technocyte-09" as in "the 9th batch of warriors created with the technocyte virus"

so excalibur or whatever is cyte-01

headcanon

im keeping this

[drifting lintel]

It may mean the 9th batch, including a lot of different frames in each batch. like ash could have been made at the same time as him making them both part of batch 9.

[ashen pulsar]

doesnt make much sense

generally batches are the ssame thing

[drifting lintel]

They're both Warframes so that's where my head was at with it.

[ashen pulsar]

maybe

we would need to see other batch names to understand

[drifting lintel]

Mirage wasn't made in a batch of mirages she was just one girl who messed up the virus when it was injected into her.

[ashen pulsar]

there were groups of frames tho. first group was the sentient frames, second was the lobotomized frames

[glossy dew]

Probably yeah, they get rolled in groups so Cyte should probably be from the 9th batch, not the 9th Warframe made, tho that wouldn't be that crazy since the orokin would most probably want a sniper assassin at their disposal

[drifting lintel]

Kinda...? I think the sentient frames were more of prototypes that went horribly wrong.

[glossy dew]

That makes me wonder, which one is the oldest frame made by the Orokin that we know of? We know Rhino is very old and Kullervo was present when the sentient frames were wiped out

Excalibur could be, but I'm more inclined to believe he was the first of the new gen frames meant for the Tenno

[fast dew]

Wasnt it Excalibur prime?

[drifting lintel]

Also none of this disproves my idea of unfinished versions being the mass produced ones and having 1 prime one the orokin artisan made.

They could have just made tactical units of cyte-09s using the unfinished version and had one prime running around as ballus' personal hatchet man.

[ashen pulsar]

we did refer to batches one other time
during the hex
frames get labeled as "batch:excalibur" "batch:mag" etc

[ashen pulsar]

nah

[glossy dew]

That sounds really badass, having Cyte prime working like agent 47

[fast dew]

Mm, what about the reports Albrecht had on them during the ARG?

[glossy dew]

True

[drifting lintel]

Oh sh*t so cyte09 is literally the 9th warframe made canonically

[fast dew]

Ik he had some, i remember him commenting on Aoi's ability to mess around with atomicycles

[ashen pulsar]

they just didnt know to lobotomize them yet

[strange plinth]

weren't really prototypes, they were in full use prior to the rebellions, then got shelved when things went wrong

[glossy dew]

I wonder why would they be shelved tho

[ashen pulsar]

maybe

not proven but it would make sensse

[strange plinth]

killing people mostly
rhino ate a guy

[ashen pulsar]

lol

[fast dew]

People they weren't meant to kill

To specify

[glossy dew]

Temple was never finished afaik, and Uriel was lost to Tau, but what about Cyte?

[ashen pulsar]

likely silently decomissioned

[strange plinth]

hidden away, lost in the archives
kept so secret that not even a proper name survived

[fast dew]

Temple was finished but never used, Uriel was used but was mainly destroyed, Cyte was a stealth frame, so probably in some bunker

[drifting lintel]

Sparingly used and never had a name written down. It's like a special opps team that on record doesn't exist.

[ashen pulsar]

yeah

[fast dew]

Its likely Albrecht only knew of cyte-09 after he stole/was given the helminth strains

[glossy dew]

Also, isn't it curious that most new frames all share a theme of being lost to time? Cyte, Temple, Oraxia, Nokko, now Uriel and probably Follie too, judging by the fact her mission is based on an abandoned relay

[ashen pulsar]

remaining units that were sentient were likely, uhh
gotten rid of

[fast dew]

Follie is generally unrelated to Albrecht it seems

[ashen pulsar]

the most reasonable way to attach new frames to lore progression

[glossy dew]

Either that or they all died off after the fall of the orokin like most other frames

[drifting lintel]

We are slipping through time a lot too.

It's almost like our main threat at the moment exists outside of time and DE is making a theme.

[fast dew]

Her thing is based after chains of harrow, so it could be. Maybe wally related, but I wouldn't say that being wally related is directly Albrecht related

[ashen pulsar]

like "here's why we're only now discovering this frame"

[ashen pulsar]

maybe

but if it were the 9th frame...

[fast dew]

I don't think its an intentional theme, just the most convenient way out tbh

[ashen pulsar]

yeah

thats what I meant

[drifting lintel]

I wanna see a new Warframe. Something our operator develops themselves.

(Or a close ally gets turned into a Warframe of their own making)

[fast dew]

... Temple.

And we are not making our own warframe

[strange plinth]

kinda requires sacrificing a whole person to the helminth

[glossy dew]

Technically speaking, that's Orion/Syrius, they're a brand new Warframe hybrid

[fast dew]

That would require killing a person in a very personal way

[glossy dew]

We just won't get to play as him

[ashen pulsar]

we do it very non-personally all the time

[drifting lintel]

I mean one that we can play.

Maybe stealing abilities from characters we met in the new war?

[fast dew]

Warframes rely on people. Im also not gonna even touch on how we'd go about making a helminth strain

[ashen pulsar]

just kidnap a few corpus, nobody would know

[glossy dew]

Nah their abilities would be hella mid

[strange plinth]

only guy who 100% knew how to do that fell into the sun

[fast dew]

Im not sure our operator would do that

[glossy dew]

What about Albrecht? He created Oraxia

[drifting lintel]

I would assume we would use the helminth in the back of our ship to make a synthetic body

[ashen pulsar]

abilities dont depend on the person unless the person does smth significant

[fast dew]

Maybe Albrecht but he's. Currently. Somewhere

[strange plinth]

oraxia's origins aren't known, she was just a guardian/pet of his

[fast dew]

Do you mean designed Qorvex? We don't know of oraxia's origin

[drifting lintel]

He did make the Chernobyl frame

[fast dew]

He designed qorvex, likely the same way parvos did with protea

[glossy dew]

Yeah that, tho it wouldn't be crazy to think Oraxia was made by him

[strange plinth]

the first iteration of a frame likely still requires a human host, then it can be replicated after
the helminth's already making synthetic bodies for our current frames

[drifting lintel]

I can't imagine that very gay man making oraxia.
I think she's a product of duviri like kulervo

[ashen pulsar]

he designed vessels, he modified the protoframe strain, he can def design strains

[strange plinth]

kullervo existed outside of duviri, though
he just fell in during the naga drums

[glossy dew]

Kullervo was made by Ballas, he just fell into Duviri in an unknown time period after fumbling his assassination attempt against Ballas

[drifting lintel]

Did he tho? Or was he fake scape goat person ballus used that then became real when he fell into duviri and became the jailor.

[glossy dew]

Besides, the void can't create a Warframe, all it can do is recycle parts of them and make a new one out of that

[strange plinth]

the jailor is a manifestation of kullervo's guilt, taking the form of the executor he likely wanted the favor of (and later tried to kill)

[drifting lintel]

I like to think it's the other way around. The jailor being ballus having to keep watch over the physical manifestation of his own sins.

[strange plinth]

acrithis mentions that the jailor is "of duviri," so he can't be ballas that just fell in

[glossy dew]

I wonder if Kullervo could theoretically escape his own jail, maybe if he forgave himself for his crimes or something like that

[drifting lintel]

Well the townspeople are all creations of the void that are based on the zaramin passengers.

[fast dew]

I mean. I absolutely can. He loves women, just platonically

[strange plinth]

potentially

[strange plinth]

they're based on the citizens of duviri in the tales of duviri storybook
potentially influenced by the zariman passengers, but not their sole inspiration

[drifting lintel]

Same with ballus. He's as real as the holdfasts and the citizens.

He's not literally ballus. He's duviri's version of ballus who now has to watch over the physical manifestation of his sins.

[fast dew]

Erm achtually the characters in the book of Duviri was based on the ones Albrecht would make for Euleria when she was a child

[strange plinth]

acrithis's dialogue focuses a lot on kullervo being the outsider, and the warden showing up with the island

[drifting lintel]

Albrecht was a bad dad if those stories were ones he made for his own daughter.

The duviri storybook was designed to make the children less emotional for void travel.

[fast dew]

What

How did you get that

[strange plinth]

meh, the tales of duviri are based on and use the characters of those stories he told to euleria, but are prolly not 1:1

[fast dew]

He made up characters to make his daughter laugh, Euleria took those stories and made them into the tales of Duviri

And. It was for emotional regulation.

[glossy dew]

Wasn't the book made by his daughter tho? At least I remember that being the case

[fast dew]

Something she actually struggled with

[drifting lintel]

I remember reading that or hearing it in game...

The duviri storybook was one given to the drifter/operator.

[fast dew]

It was for emotional regulation inside the void to avoid conceptual embodiment

Which. Is a good thing

[glossy dew]

Which apparently backfired since drifter literally brought them to life

[fast dew]

Teaching children emotional regulation is incredibly important, even outside the context of warframe

[strange plinth]

-# In Duviri, I woke every day to the voice of my daughter. I recoiled from this at first, feeling the sting of conscience. I could not confront, even in semblance, the woman I had abandoned. Instead I reinvented myself as a teacher, advising the child-King of the menace beyond his borders.

-# But as the days melted away, I came to recognize the strange cast of characters Euleria had created, and their purpose. I heard voices I had myself first conjured in the darkness of her childhood chambers, for no other reward than her delight. She had not only preserved this gift I had thought so trivial, she had made it an instrument of healing. More: a stronghold.

[fast dew]

I need to draw him acting out some of the parts of Duviri for Euleria

[glossy dew]

That's kinda sad ngl

[drifting lintel]

I had figured the divirui stories did that a bit too well since drifter turned out ... Like drifter.

[fast dew]

Nah, drifter turned out the way they did from the executions

I get the vibe that Euleria was very similar to Thrax when she was younger tbh

She still kinda is, if you don't rank up to r5

[drifting lintel]

Wait did he write these stories for his granddaughter?

[fast dew]

For his daughter

He made them up for his daughter, who then wrote proper stories from them

[drifting lintel]

I thought his daughter was sevagoth/grandmother

[fast dew]

Euleria is Mother

No, thats. Mm. Father's mother

[drifting lintel]

Ah

[fast dew]

Albrecht's on the maternal side, Dagath/Grandmother is the paternal side

[strange plinth]

i've gotta steal that chart whenever i see it next

[fast dew]

Weirdly, both have wet rats of men in their lineage

[drifting lintel]

this one?

[fast dew]

We. Have a simplified one

[drifting lintel]

Wait our name is ayatan?

[fast dew]

It is old though, we need to update Father's, Grandmother's and Albrecht's wife's name

[lean garden]

why is there an alt box to otak lmao

[strange plinth]

entrati r5, we're given the name "ayatan" as a welcome to the family

[drifting lintel]

His original name before being a cephalon

[fast dew]

Petros Vorten and Dagath Vorten. Nice names

[lean garden]

is also otak

[fast dew]

He was Archimedian Otak

[strange plinth]

something about argon crystals iirc?

[drifting lintel]

The one I shared was made 2 years ago

[drifting lintel]

Archimedean otak is still an alternate version under the rules of the chart

[fast dew]

Mhm. He was like. The guy. The pioneer of argon crystals

[lean garden]

is it really counted as an alternate version if otak was made from otak

would a butterfly be counted as an alternate version of a caterpillar?

[drifting lintel]

Yes. Necraloid is counted as an alternate to loid

[strange plinth]

makes more sense for loid, as they both exist at the same time
but otak n otak are the same person

[lean garden]

but loid is very much alive

archimedean otak is not

archimedean otak is now cephalon otak

[drifting lintel]

I think the point is that they're not exactly the same person since they don't have their soul

[lean garden]

oh boy have fun talking to marie about that

[drifting lintel]

Archimedean otak is dead.
Cephalon otak is a different person who is alive

I'm nice enough to not be an ass to her. Otak is close enough to alive. And I never met the original

[lean garden]

marie will ask you if you believe cephalons have souls

you get to decide what to believe

[fast dew]

I believe they do, but that necraloid does not

[lean garden]

I mean, have you tried copy and pasting a soul? Like maybe if you use an expensive enough keyboard it might work

[drifting lintel]

Well scientifically... No.
The oro is the soul and cephalons as far as I know don't use the oro to make them.

[fast dew]

Reckon Albrecht got some expensive keyboards?

[lean garden]

oh man

[lean garden]

Not sure, he did go thrifting

[lean garden]

Have you seen Albrechts take on oro related things?

[drifting lintel]

I think the glass maker process might have those cephalons still have their souls tho....

[lean garden]

Oro doesnt seem to be a measure of a soul (as much as things like Supernatural would have them) but rather a qualia of a persona

[drifting lintel]

A what?

[fast dew]

Oro. Is a thing thats not really. A thing that's. Mm. A firm belief

Albrecht seems to think most animals don't have it, but he does make the exception for his Kavat

[strange plinth]

something, something, 'petty squabbles about oro'

[drifting lintel]

Well the orokin certainly thought it was a soul since they kept transferring it from body to body to live forever.

If they didn't think it was really them then why bother?

[lean garden]

well not exactly

[normal mountain]

Immortality would be reason enough, I wager

[lean garden]

what oro looks to be is more of a matter of consciousness, not of a soul

[fast dew]

Cuz, the orokin we're weird

They hated twins, they were odd

[lean garden]

so you can constantly transfer your consciousness over and over again

[drifting lintel]

If it's not a soul, and just information that makes a blank slate take on your personality, then no you are not immortal. It's just a copy of you that uses your name while you are dead.

[fast dew]

They also really dislike glassing

[normal mountain]

If you are dead and the "copy" lives, is there really any point to making the distinction?

[lean garden]

wheres D4C when you need it

[drifting lintel]

Yeah? Assuming the Warframe religion has a hell you're definitely in it while your copy runs around thinking it's you.

[fast dew]

No they

[lean garden]

Is it really pretense tho?

[lean garden]

what is umbra to you? (Just checking)

[drifting lintel]

The tortured immortal guy?

[fast dew]

Didn't really have. A religion that really had hell i think. Maybe dualism but thats not relevant in current day warframe

[lean garden]

well, is he a pretender or not?

[fast dew]

They have the Vain faith

[lean garden]

also "immortal" is a funny way to describe him

[drifting lintel]

Didn't he get turned into umbra? That's still him then.

[strange plinth]

umbra got blown up by sentients, then we rebuild him

[lean garden]

Ah, I see you may have forgotten act 1 of the sacrifice

[lean garden]

^

[drifting lintel]

Oh right that.

[fast dew]

Someone should have a gif of him being got

[lean garden]

hence why this is funny

[strange plinth]

-# granted umbra would also be connected to the infestation and its reasonable that actual person is stored somewhere to be tossed back into the new umbra but whatever

[drifting lintel]

The one we made in the orbiter is a copy who had the same umbra chip in it.
It only has the memory of the original umbra being forced to kill his son on loop due to that chip.

Except helmenth memory outside of time shenanigans

[lean garden]

like I know you likely forgot, but also powerscalers genuinely call umbra immortal because they actually dont remember he got a free vacation over here and over there and way over there

[ashen pulsar]

yeah think I have it somewhere

[lean garden]

so is he a copy or is he still umbra?

[ashen pulsar]

https://tenor.com/view/dr-manhattan-gif-18899941

there you are

[strange plinth]

yea close enough

[ashen pulsar]

specifically space mom

[drifting lintel]

The one we make, ignoring helmenth shenanigans, is a copy.

[ashen pulsar]

right?

[strange plinth]

i don't remember if Natah was there for the initial explosion or not

[fast dew]

Warframe players just in general seem to think that their warframes are immortal, ignoring the. Other warframes Stalker killed.
-# + that poor equinox prime

[strange plinth]

because she has her big reveal at the end of that quest iirc, so it'd just be some random battalysts i think?

[fast dew]

Close enough tbh

[ashen pulsar]

https://youtu.be/KO1_YJs2mBE?si=D0-v4XQNYhjDtAYO

[lean garden]

I mean, wasnt his first death like, Extremely recent?

[fast dew]

I should draw umbra and make him get hit by the nukes

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/952946035733438575/1461285583681753251/explode-1768467993232.gif

These, for context

[strange plinth]

ah yea it is Natah
she just isn't revealed as Lotus/Natah right there

[lean garden]

Well, at least youre consistent.

But I dont think I can agree that a soul is a necessary property to ensure someone gets to live on, especially if they get another property and are virtually identical

especially in a universe where the concept of a "soul" is more and more described to be a matter of consciousness

[ashen pulsar]

yep

I was like :O ITS HER

[ashen pulsar]

shit wait whats that one psychological horror game

[lean garden]

"oro" is described as something the enemies that teshin talk about possesses, allowing them to, like the tenno (as warframes) cheat death. These enemies as we come to learn are the Sentients

[lean garden]

would you then say that the Sentients are showing consciousness persisting even in the death of an inhabited body (e.g fragment) or are they demonstrating a soul?

[drifting lintel]

Wait what? Sentients have oro?

[ashen pulsar]

SOMA

its about scanning your brain onto a robot

[drifting lintel]

I had always thought the thing he was talking about was fragmentation.

It's like lopping off your arm and still being able to control it.
The central mind is still hunhow for example. And his drones cheat death because they're all just him.

[ashen pulsar]

and multiple times in the game, you scan your brain onto a new one to transfer intelligence
but the other is left behind
which one is you?

[lean garden]

he was! but he specifically says its because of oro

[drifting lintel]

It isn't until Tau and the consumption of zeno flora that the drones are able to separate from the hive mind that is their progenitor.

In absence of zeno flora or signals from the pregenitor they splintered from they take any commands.

[lean garden]

Out there exist an enemy that can be struck down, incapacitated, dismantled and yet they rise to fight again. Annihilate the opposing team's Oro to claim a true victory.

Oro is the binding force for an enemy who, like the Tenno, can survive death. To kill such an enemy is futile, unless you sever this bond; absorb the Oro to annihilate it and claim a true victory."

[lean garden]

and the lack thereof brings all the fragments under control of a main unit, which is pretty much all that we fight for the Old and New War

[drifting lintel]

A main unit example being hunhow, the mothership ballus drove into the sun, lotus herself

[normal mountain]

Peak reference btw

[drifting lintel]

Anything that came out of a manifold, not a result of splintering

[lean garden]

so in the context of this, knowing that this is about the Sentients (because theres only one enemy out there at the point where Teshin says this), I doubt oro is a measure of a soul

or rather, a soul is not intended to be distinguishable from someones's consciousness

[drifting lintel]

I think he was using it uphamisticsly in that line. He talks in poetry like he's a samurai out of a kurisara movie.
They have one soul behind their actions.

[lean garden]

So are you saying that the machines have a soul too?

[drifting lintel]

To be clear I do think that the sentients have souls.
Adis' soul is blue

[lean garden]

in that case, since they are manufactured lifeforms, how/why/where do they have/get their souls?

[stiff fable]

same place as anyone else

[lean garden]

ah yes, home depot

[lean garden]

from the starfish to adis, where did the soul come in

[stiff fable]

Not Pottery Barn?

[strange plinth]

if you don't have home-made, store-bought is fine

[lean garden]

Dont have the budget for a pottery barn soul

[drifting lintel]

No f*cking clue, probably the zeno flora but I don't think glassing someone and turning them into a cephalon nessiarily transfers their actual soul. Since you can then edit them.

[lean garden]

separately, this is such an unintelligible line out of the warframe context

[fast dew]

You have a soul? I got wires and fibreglass for mine

[dire mountain]

Mine came free whenever I bought a pizza

[lean garden]

Well, thats what Im getting at, in warframe it seems more that the soul and the consciousness are in effect the same thing.

but also, if you suppose the xenoflora added the "soul" to the sentients, does that mean you can add souls to things? What about sentients who were made after the xenoflora got terraformed to meet Xenoflora Jesus?

[drifting lintel]

I was about to try to explain it and then I realized that main unit sentients like hunhow don't need zeno flora

I'm not quite sure how those ones got souls.

The zeno flora provided something that allowed the fragmentary sentients to have their own soul.

[lean garden]

See why I say I think it seems to flow more coherently if the soul and the consciousness are one and the same?

Lets take the latest statement on oro

which ironically, is a diss on this very nature of discussion we're having

[drifting lintel]

Yeah but it feels weird because then the soul is able to be destroyed.

[lean garden]

It was not necessary to explore queasy debates about the Oro; animal minds simply lacked the full distinction of a singular persona. My Kalymos, I was sure, was an exception, but I would not sacrifice that loyal being.

[lean garden]

I mean, not really uncommon of a trope in fiction really

[drifting lintel]

Fair.

Also I remember hearing that oro was directly ripped from the Egyptian concept of a soul.

[lean garden]

in essence:
No need to even talk about oro, the animals dont have enough distinct persona to qualify

[lean garden]

first Im hearing of it

[fast dew]

Except for my car :)

[lean garden]

the only thing Im sure was ripped from egypt was inaros

oh and narmer

[drifting lintel]

The Egyptian concept of a soul has many distinct parts. One of them being your consciousness.

[lean garden]

mmmm delicious soul salad

[drifting lintel]

The two most important parts are the ka and ba
Ka is the "vital essence" or life
Ba is the "personality" or consciousness

[lean garden]

I need to deep clean my brain

why is my first thought

[drifting lintel]

Why...

[lean garden]

I guess I gotta nuke the Ba

nice knowing yall

[drifting lintel]

Ego death is really bad don't do that

[lean garden]

I have no Ego, I traded it for a pack of Wikipedia trading cards

[fast dew]

I have superego....

[lean garden]

thats a real thing btw, wiki trading cards

10000% free and fun

[drifting lintel]

Sorry what?

[lean garden]

wikigacha . com

[drifting lintel]

No thanks. I don't like gacha games.

.... Yes I see the irony

[lean garden]

oh its nothing like that lol

its just opening packs containing wiki articles as cards

theres a battle feature but it does nothing

[drifting lintel]

Neat

[lean garden]

I got monaco

[drifting lintel]

That's a lot of attack and defense

[lean garden]

anyways back to the ka and ba

[drifting lintel]

What is going on with the helminth by the way? Why does the hive mind f*cking side step time itself??

Oh nevermind

[lean garden]

have you ever watched star trek

[drifting lintel]

Been meaning to

[lean garden]

specifically star trek: discovery

[drifting lintel]

No

[lean garden]

ah then this part will make no sense

but:
the all encompassing mycelial network

[drifting lintel]

Oh I actually know what mycelium is

[drifting lintel]

Still doesn't explain sending signals back in time

[lean garden]

thats why you need the all encompassing

jk (we also have no damn clue how or why the infestation can do that)

[drifting lintel]

Now I have a different weird question...

When an operator transfers into something do they become raw signals/energy that can then get bounced into the helminth hive mind back in time?

[lean garden]

well... kinda? thats how we got to 1999 in the first place

we transferred into the excal that the helminth crapped out

and then we transferred out of the excal into 1999

[drifting lintel]

Yeah but that would require us turning into energy like the helminth was a phone line

Wouldn't it?

[lean garden]

The meat tunnel is a viable form of travel through time, although we skipped the traveling through the meat tunnel somehow

[lean garden]

well, we kinda do?

[drifting lintel]

Alright you were saying?

[humble sierra]

Expedition 33 reference

[lean garden]

specifically, Drifter says that the tenno are not tied to a physical form, so like, the alternative is a form that can pass connect through time

[lean garden]

if we go by that understanding, what would you constitute as Ka in warframe

[drifting lintel]

Same as the Egyptians. The part that keeps you from just randomly shutting off.

In Egyptian mythology when the ka leaves the body the person dies

[lean garden]

so like basically anything keeping you alive

[drifting lintel]

When someone loses their Ba but not their Ka, they become a mindless drone. Like the kids shortly before the continuity ritual. Or the sentients after being starved of zeno flora

Ye

[lean garden]

Do the kids go mindless before continuity? I thought the orokin added the flavour of destroying someones consciousness as part of the process during the ritual?

[drifting lintel]

It's like right before they get transferred into the kid. They use kuva to mind wipe them basically.

Iirc

[lean garden]

I not sure if Im getting the same reading, youre referring to the kim yea?

based on Roathe's impromptu continuity, it seems more of a simultaneous process?

[drifting lintel]

I don't remember where I picked up that idea. It's just in my brain as how it works.

• wipe the kid
• use the kuva
• transfer oro into kid

[drifting lintel]

Could be. I don't remember.

You could say that the cephalon is an example of Ba without Ka

[lean garden]

Wouldnt the cephalon's powersource be the ka here?

[drifting lintel]

I mean I guess but they don't permanently die when you cut the power.

The ba is still contained in the memory banks

[lean garden]

how do the egyptians deal with necromancy?

is the movie The Mummy starring Brandon Fraser an accurate representation

[drifting lintel]

I have no idea how they deal with necromancy or if it's even a concept in Egyptian myth.

I do know that in the afterlife you look like your corpse does on earth. That's why they did their best to preserve their bodies.

[sharp igloo]

why do people keep saying that they picked the Lotus during the end of the New War quest because “that was who she chose to be”? isn’t that just not true? in the ropaloyst boss fight, natah talks about how she was captured by the golden lords and reprogrammed to turn against her fellow sentients, as well as to nurture and take care of the tenno. not only that, but ballas refitted her into margulis’s image, because he lost her by the jade light due to execution from the seven

[visual knoll]

I picked Natah for my lotus

[stiff fable]

There is actually no right choice based on free will

Natah was BUILT to be an infiltrator who would slip in to the Tenno and gain their trust.

Ballas may have even had a hand in it depending on when the Vitruvian message was sent

[lean garden]

The Lotus is a distinct persona that isnt Natah nor Margulis. If we consider it, all 3 of them by the time of the New War are all results of hefty manipulation

[stiff fable]

right

[lean garden]

Well, its definitely after the Old Peace thats for sure

[stiff fable]

heh

[lean garden]

and also definitely before Erras assault on Lua

[strange plinth]

arguably, she became Radiant Lotus right after killing ballas, so that is a form of choosing already
that was part of my thought process when choosing, at least

[stiff fable]

Ultimately it only comes down to the player's choice

[idle hull]

Lotus prime also looks cool

[stiff fable]

Do you impose a stark truth on her, invoke a wistful dream, or forge ahead with your equilibrium as before?

also, reminder that the other two personalities don't go away, you're just picking the one that talks loudest in her own head

[idle hull]

honestly I don’t quite understand how certain sentients gain sentience.
Like if the flowers in the old peace stopped the hive mind for taking over, is hunhow and the lotus like upper class sentients or are they like hive mind cores or something

[strange plinth]

the xenoflora granted the fragments individuality
fully separate sentients like Erra and Natah would not need them

[stiff fable]

presumably the "hive minds" are the spaceship forms

[idle hull]

like why are they separate sentients

[stiff fable]

Erra and Natah would have been giant machines like Hunhow and Praghasa

[idle hull]

Ahh I see

[stiff fable]

But like, Natah broke off all of her parts to make Mimics

[strange plinth]

two different methods of reproduction, fragments are directly split off of a larger body, part of its "hive"

[stiff fable]

in the Old Peace time, the xenoflora would have made those parts into their own people, instead of parts of Natah

[midnight ice]

asexual reproduction via fragmenting or sexual reproduction via wombs. oh theyre just Cnidarians lmao

[lean garden]

I mean, I think she was just made that size to begin with

[stiff fable]

Sentients return to crab

[lean garden]

imo the only distinction between the two types are just full sentients vs fragments

[stiff fable]

maybe, but the mimics WERE part of her

So she would have been larger at one point by definition

[lean garden]

So is rolypoly

[stiff fable]

truth

[lean garden]

not necessarily, I imagine that fragments can be generated separately but still part of a main sentient

[stiff fable]

I still kinda wonder what the big plan was with her having you kill Ropapolyst

[lean garden]

i.e the rolypolys coming out of the murex

[stiff fable]

iirc the Cetus fragments mention that pieces of the Plains Sentient that were destroyed were permakilled

[lean garden]

Well, wasnt her role in the rolypoly fight to wax poetic

[lean garden]

wasnt that because gara dropped the bomb directly into the main sentient body?

[stiff fable]

nope

Even before that

[midnight ice]

and cover half the goddamn screen for 5 minutes

[stiff fable]

When it makes its final rush for Cetus, it disregards the permanent losses, because the Temple Kuva's healing will let it replace those fragments "a thousandfold"

[lean garden]

actually wait

lol

[stiff fable]

The Sentient prowled and pressed and failed, never risking too much – for the Sentient could not reproduce. What it lost, it lost forever.

[lean garden]

I dont know why we went down that route

no shit destroyed fragments stay destroyed

[stiff fable]

temporary insanity, who hasn't been there

[lean garden]

anyways, the plains sentient was essentially operating alone so, the whole murex making more bit seemingly doesnt apply

[lean garden]

^ especially since this was in a time where the entire bulk of sentient forces were hiding

[stiff fable]

weird and fun fact, it made its attack during the Collapse

[pure onyx]

guys i'm doing the hex and can someone tell me.. just what is going on

i'm so confused

who are the protoframe people, why did the giant organic mouth thing just spit out an excalibur, why am i going to fight the excalibur, what the helly is going on

[lean garden]

congratulations you have time traveled to the past

do you remember that short bit during Whispers in the Wall where you played as the Excalibur Protoframe?

[radiant pier]

blame Albrecht

something something he did some wacky shit, strain of the infestation that let them keep their humanity, atleast for a couple thousand years before they turn into the full Warframe

[fast dew]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/952946035733438575/1461285583681753251/explode-1768467993232.gif

[hollow siren]

The Helminth thing isn't directly explained, but it's assumed that you get to 1999 by Loid forcing a Helminth to create a frame at that time so you can Transfer into that, thus travelling to the past

[pure onyx]

but arent frames created by merging the infestation and orokin

[dark compass]

No?

They're just carefully edited infestation using people as base

Warframes are part of the Infestation

[pure onyx]

oh i assumed those people were always orokin

[dark compass]

I'm pretty sure that's how we always travel to 1999. We always spawn in the mall with a massive mouth behind

[pure onyx]

my bad

[hollow siren]

The only Orokin who we know for a fact got injected with the Helminth Strain is Roathe. The Original frames were created by injecting normal humans with it, but then Blueprints were created from those mutated people, enabling fabrication of effectively inert "clones"

[dark compass]

Orokin is more so a status

A caste

[hollow siren]

yeah the Orokin were the elite ruling caste of human society

[dark compass]

People living under orokin are those who usually got warframe'd

We know a couple of people before they got warframe'd

Dagath, for an example

[pure onyx]

i seeee.. also i only have the old peace left in my quests, is this as big of a thing as new war

[hollow siren]

No quest currently is as long as TNW

[pure onyx]

cuz if so, i'll prob go through lore videos and stuff

[dark compass]

I'd say closer to jade shadows

[pure onyx]

oh i seee

[dark compass]

With TNW production quality

[pure onyx]

i wanna know what's happening when i do it cuz i've heard a lotta praise about the old war, so i'll watch lore vids to update myself

[pure onyx]

ayy that's cool

[hollow siren]

The Old Peace (quest) only shows a brief part of the Old War. The actual Old War spanned over decades, if not centuries

Moreso an extended period of recurring conflicts rather than like a single battle

[marble timber]

Orokin is basically their term for nobles

[hollow siren]

roughly translates to The Golden People

[pure onyx]

wait but arent orokin the big blue people

not just human nobles

[marble timber]

Yes and no

[hollow siren]

Yes, cosmetic gene-modifying

[marble timber]

Basically, Orokin, Grineer, and Corpus are all human

The blue skin and long arms is basically their jewelry

[hollow siren]

the blue skin, white eyes and elongated right arm were fashion trends

A thing with Warframe that the devs have always followed is that unlike most sci-fi they wanted to avoid having aliens

Most everything in Warframe can be traced back to humanity

[marble timber]

Yeah that threw me off when I was first told that every species is human or has human origin

[hollow siren]

the only like actually unknown things are the Sentinels, and that's mostly due to their only real lore being a single Codex entry that's pretty much a relic of the Oldframe era

[pure onyx]

ohh what this is so interesting

[fast dew]

What? Do we not hear Erra call the orokin [namely ballas] A Maker?

[hollow siren]

Sentinels

Not Sentients

[fast dew]

Mb its late

[marble timber]

What’s the difference again

[fast dew]

At the same time though, if they're made for the tenno to use, id say they're human made

[fast dew]

The sentinels are the lil robot companion fellas iirc

[marble timber]

Ok

[fast dew]

Sentients being. Non companion robot fellas

[marble timber]

Now I want a sentient companion

Or a skin for one

[fast dew]

Perhaps Caliban having his summons would do

Mm, does his prime have different looking summons or

Is he boring

[strange turtle]

Back in my day we didn’t need no fancy explanation, we went foraging by hand and found them in the bushes and the rivers and the mushrooms

[fast dew]

Well currently in this era, we have folk who make shit up, so we gotta get some explanation 😭

[marble timber]

Just war crimes laying around

[lean garden]

sentinels have sentient skin options

[lean garden]

https://wiki.warframe.com/w/Kerulyst_Sentinel_Skin_Bundle

[hollow siren]

yes

[fast dew]

Awh they're cute

[ocean geyser]

Caliban summons got drip

[hollow siren]

Deluxe also changes them

[fast dew]

Oh yeah?

[hollow siren]

only pics of Conculysts since it was before his rework

[fast dew]

Forgot he had a deluxe. Despite... the fact the next nightwave seems to be involved

[hollow siren]

his Deluxe just makes him into Soulframe

[ocean geyser]

I liked his deluxe but recently i learned it has skin

Which
Freaks me out a little

[hollow siren]

his toes

[fast dew]

Got a lil too human

[ocean geyser]

Yeah

[fast dew]

Back to being a machine Caliban

[ocean geyser]

vile

[fast dew]

WOAH.

[pure onyx]

guys need help, when exactly did the events of old peace happen, like adis and tenno being friends, and adis mentioning they used to be at war, so this is after the first fallout? but i'm hearing it was during the peaceful coexistence before the "peak of the war" i don't get the timeline

[fast dew]

Thats worse than what I thought.

[hollow siren]

It's a short treaty during the Old War

[fast dew]

It was a break between the two parts of the old war

[ocean geyser]

Old war > Old Peace > Old War cont.

[hollow siren]

remember, the Old War was a long period of time, not a single conflict

[pure onyx]

i see

[pure onyx]

okay gotchu tyyy

so this is long bfore the tenno betray orokin at the grand meet and stuff right

[fast dew]

Genuinely how did this get the okay that is horrible 😭

[fast dew]

Yes, before the night of the naga drums

[hollow siren]

yes, that ceremony was (allegedly) held because the war was finally fully over

[pure onyx]

thankk you all so much :D

[fast dew]

[fresh rover]

They have mouths?

[hollow siren]

appareantly that Rhino did

[fast dew]

That Rhino is probably why they don't anymore

[fresh rover]

It's like Adam and Eve.

Rhino bit the fruit and then all Warframes lost their mouths.

A sad tale.

[fast dew]

"Warframes cannot speak, as a rule. Their creator decided they should only scream, or roar, or howl."
– Loid

[fresh rover]

I've heard this but thanks for the recap

[hollow siren]

only frame with a literal mouth would be Grendel

and that's obviously not a normal mouth

[fresh rover]

Works for me

[dark compass]

The rhino prime description mentions how he pulverized someone into a pile of meat and started eating it

[hollow siren]

it's never confirmed, but I like to imagine that was the Original Rhino

hence why he had the mouth, they refined the design later

[fresh rover]

It probably is, if it's the reason the rest no longer have mouths.

But I remember someone saying something about sentience.

Were these Warframes sentient at the time?

[hollow siren]

the Originals are/were all still sentient to various degrees, and even the fabricated copies show some levels of being "alive"

[fresh rover]

So Rhino was just straight up a cannibalistic murderer?

[fast dew]

Most warframes tend to be murderers yeah

[hollow siren]

I mean, the one he killed was one of the scientists who likely injected him in the first place

[fresh rover]

Well I mean, with the gameplay...

[dark compass]

Voruna

[fresh rover]

Oh I didn't know that. That makes a lot more sense

[hollow siren]

I also imagine that going through something as painful and traumatic as becoming a Warframe might affect your mental state a bit

[fresh rover]

Imagine we had Warframes here, minus the orokin...

The governments would have a field day.

[hollow siren]

https://wiki.warframe.com/w/Rhino/Prime

[fresh rover]

Also they're all slightly infested, or at least have been injected with infestation no? They're an amalgamation of Metal and biology right?

I forgot already

[fast dew]

Just infestation

[fresh rover]

I have him I just never read his studf

[dark compass]

They are infestation

[hollow siren]

the Helminth is a specially-made strain of Infestation, yes

[lean garden]

slightly infested is an understatement lol

[dark compass]

Infestation melds flesh and metal

[fast dew]

Infestation likes to make stuff from other stuff

[hollow siren]

https://youtu.be/BKib62Mc8Y4?si=WTT5rMnt_icj5EAa

[dark compass]

There's secretly a mouth on every warframe and we just don't know it

[fresh rover]

I feel like I summoned a legion by saying anything about the infestation.

But also, good to know I'm still remembering some Warframe lore.

Also, why don't we remember we're an operator? I feel like in the game you have no knowledge of your actual self, and think you're a Warframe.

[fast dew]

Awh that looked like the jahu requiem log i got excited

[hollow siren]

Margulis and Lotus both sealed away our memories

[hollow siren]

well, those logs are likely Vitruvians as well so

[fresh rover]

I mean I could see like Excalibur having that jagged line over his face be a mouth.

[fresh rover]

Nidus and Excalibur are by far my favorites. With Excal ofc being my first

[drifting lintel]

The end of the old peace.
Lotus made us forget everything so we thought we were just the Warframes.

[hollow siren]

||That's Margulis, not Lotus||

||Margulis sealed our memories of the Zariman, then later on Lotus sealed our memories of the Old War||

[drifting lintel]

No that's lotus. In that scene her eyes were ripped out and you can see the sentient material in her sockets.

Reminder that natah was originally the first mimic sentient. She disguised herself as margulis.

[hollow siren]

Margulis had her eyes burned out by the Tenno

[drifting lintel]

I forgot that...

[hollow siren]

By the time of the Old Peace, it's likely Natah was not even born yet

[drifting lintel]

I swear the eye sockets look more like natah material than void burns

[drifting lintel]

I see

Then the act of making us forget was what got her killed

[hollow siren]

She has tiny cybernetics in the sockets, might help her to "see" in some other way

[fast dew]

"never turning her back on her beloved children"
Rell:

[hollow siren]

That's cause she did not love him ❤️

[drifting lintel]

Why did the devs torture the autistic child?

[fast dew]

I mean

[hollow siren]

realistic game

[fast dew]

Why wouldn't he be discriminated against?

[drifting lintel]

... Because he was the one kid who figured out how to control his powers

[fast dew]

The orokin didn't gaf about physical disabilities, but they seemed to not like mental ones

[fast dew]

Yeah and? And high chance it was him who blinded Margulis

In fact

[drifting lintel]

I think that chance is rather low actually.
Margulis didn't take care of him and she wore the scars as a badge of honor.

[fast dew]

It was likely his autism that caught Wally's attention

[fast dew]

"Blinded, she cast him out" with "my fault" from Rell

So. Depending on how you interpret that line

[drifting lintel]

I forgot about that line

Why would she consider that a badge of honor tho?
A burn scar from the kid she threw out

[fast dew]

She isnt a saint, thats why

[hollow siren]

Margulis was not really a saint despite it all

[fast dew]

Noone is

With the exception of Kalymos

[drifting lintel]

I mean lotus isn't bad...

[hollow siren]

reminder that her and Ballas did legitimately love eachother

[fast dew]

Ehh.

Trying to pull what she did in the old peace towards loid was pretty weird

[hollow siren]

1. She kinda is
2. She is a completely separate person

[drifting lintel]

I was saying lotus isn't bad in response to the claim that nobody is a saint

[dark compass]

Looking forward to an update called "Crimes of Kalymos"

[fast dew]

"The only way to find Albrecht" to the man's lover to convince him to let the operator continue with the dark refractory

Was. Pretty weird and kinda shitty

Considering in the story we know where Albrecht is

[fast dew]

The trials and tribulations of Kalymos

[dark compass]

She knocked an Ayatan sculpture off the table once

[drifting lintel]

I think the idea was it was the only way to find the path to Albrecht

[dark compass]

[fast dew]

Which. Isnt true, by the fact the old peace and 1999 happens at the same time. Our way to Albrecht was 1999

We purposefully stayed behind

[dark compass]

Drifter literally found him

Directly encountered

[hollow siren]

1999 was the past. Lotus was trying to find where Albrecht is now in the present

[fast dew]

So the lotus trying to convince Loid to let the operator continue with the dark refractory using that was shitty and manipulative

[fast dew]

He was still in 1999 at the time of the old peace 😭

[drifting lintel]

Albrecht is on Tau. The dark refractory is her trying to figure out how to get to tau now.

[hollow siren]

Albrecht was in Höllvania during 1999. There's no telling where he would be in the present, if anywhere

[fast dew]

The old peace happens at the same time as the hex quest

[dark compass]

I assumed that it was just to try and reason out why tau is so important

And we didn't learn much

[fast dew]

The lotus says the line when we know Albrecht is in 1999

And she said the only way

Which also isnt true, because again

We know where he is 😭

[drifting lintel]

That's not how time travel works...

[fast dew]

Which is in Höllvania

[fast dew]

The drifter goes off to 1999 at the same time as the operator goes into the dark refractory.

[hollow siren]

Technically yes, but the events of 1999 still happened eons ago. We know Albrecht was in Höllvania in that ancient past, but that still doesn't tell us exactly where he could be in the actual present

[fast dew]

Oh my god

He didn't leave yet??? He wasn't out of 1999 at the time the lotus says that line.

[dark compass]

Well, technically, a trip to the past and then a return would make it look like no time has passed

[fast dew]

Im. Gonna have an aneurysm.

[dark compass]

I'm not arguing with you

[hollow siren]

Lotus says that line in the present. By now, Albrecht has been "out" of 1999 for thousands of years

[fast dew]

I need to draw what I mean atp bcs I dont think what im saying makes sense

[dark compass]

Oh sounds like a good idea

[drifting lintel]

Timeline of events for drifter: The drifter goes to 1999, finds out Albrecht went to tau, does the time loop to get connected to everyone, saves everyone, sends the signal back to the present

Timeline of events for operator: drifter goes back in time, an hour or so later they get a signal saying Albrecht went to tau, go to dark refractory to learn about Tau

[dark compass]

I am waiting for the visual guide

[drifting lintel]

Time travel is f*cky. 1999 might as well have been seconds from the origin system's perspective.

[hollow siren]

in terms of "actual" time, the only thing that happened in the year 1999 was the final succesful Loop

[drifting lintel]

Yeah I was meaning in the present the two signals could have been seconds apart

[hollow siren]

They would be, since the signal was technically sent long before Drifter even travelled back to 1999

[drifting lintel]

Drifter's signal that he figured out where Albrecht went?

[hollow siren]

yeah

Drifter would have sent it in 1999, then thousands of years pass until Loid picks it up in the post-Orokin era

[fast dew]

Id like to bring up the fact time passed during 1999 in the current time

If we were to assume that we immediately start both quests, we would have to take into account Loid's monitoring of the situation, which couldn't have been done at the same time

And, in the true end to the hex

We see Loid not. Actually at the dark refractory

Loid was also going through Albrecht's personal items to give us Cyte 09

So, more time than a single second passed

[hollow siren]

.

[fast dew]

.. no.

Because. The old peace is started the same time as the hex

If anything, it seems that the old peace could've happened beforehand

Given the operator knows where he went, and all

Which is a whole other thing

[drifting lintel]

Red is Albrecht, blue is drifter, green is drifter's signal that says Albrecht went to tau

[jolly root]

And my brain hurts

[drifting lintel]

Dark refractory happens after green signal

[fast dew]

Also id like to point out, we do not know if Albrecht is on tau

[fast dew]

Except it doesn't?

[hollow siren]

Yes, but the actual events of 1999 take place long before. During the Dark Refractory stuff in the Old Peace, the Drifter is nowhere, since Drifter and Operator cannot co-exist in Reality at the same time

[drifting lintel]

The operator knows because drifter told them....

[fast dew]

No actually, the operator told the drifter.

[drifting lintel]

When?

When is that mentioned?

[fast dew]

“1999

Hey. I think you know where you need to go. I will stay here, I will watch her, them, everyone. I'll be waiting for you to get answers and come back to us. Whatever happens in that year, whatever makes it so important, figure it out.

Okay, I guess you should really get going.

Please find him.

– Operator

P.S i don't know how to prove it, but it really is me, not... it. Remember our meal on the Zariman?”

Its an email, the operator sends to the drifter

[drifting lintel]

He's saying to find Albrecht in 1999

And then drifter sends the email back explaining that he f*cked off to Tau

[fast dew]

...no

[hollow siren]

That's referring to Albrecht being in 1999. Drifter is going back there to find out where Albrecht is currently

[fast dew]

No????

Did we ever get an email????

[drifting lintel]

We didn't get an actual email. I was using it as a turn of phrase.

[drifting lintel]

This is what that email means:

Hey I think you know where you need to go 1999.
I'll watch everyone here while you're gone
I'll wait for you to find answers in 1999
Figure out why 1999 is important
Please find him in that year

[fast dew]

Id also like to point out that this is untrue, they can and have. An example being the lotus eaters. They just need a place with a higher void presence, like the edge of the labs

[hollow siren]

That is true, yes

Höllvania does not have that, so it can't be "during" the Old Peace quest

[fast dew]

So. If the old peace happens immediately after that email is sent, why would we need to go look at our memories of tau to find someone who wasn't in our memories of tau 😭 because we also aren't looking at current tau where Albrecht might be, we're looking at past memories because the indifference wants to keep them suppressed, probably because of our connection to adis

[drifting lintel]

It can't be during the old peace quest because of time travel. Time doesn't work like that one sh*tty X-Men movie.

[fast dew]

Space-time. They cannot possess the same slot in Space-time.

They aren't in the same time

So therefore, they can happen at "the same time"

[hollow siren]

...yes. I know. That is literally what I have been telling you

[fast dew]

Oh my god

Im trying to say that they can be happening during the same passage of time, just not at the same space

Which is what the devs have said is happening 😭

[drifting lintel]

The old peace isn't directly after the operator sent that email.

The old peace is directly after the drifter sends a message back saying Albrecht went to tau.

We're digging through our memories of Tau because we need to know how to get to tau. And why our memories of the place were suppressed

[fast dew]

It is though

That email is sent after lotus eaters

[drifting lintel]

Yes!

[fast dew]

Which. Is before the hex and the old peace

[dark compass]

I thought it was very much stated that both quests take place at roughly the same time. You can even play the hex and old peace in any order after doing Lotus Eaters

[fast dew]

The devs said it somewhere as well hold on

[drifting lintel]

The email is sent after lotus eaters because the drifter goes to 1999 directly after lotus eaters.

[fast dew]

Somewhere on devstream

[fast dew]

Its. Sent before we go to 1999? Thats the email that gives us the quest to go to 1999????

[hollow siren]

This is what's sent after Lotus Eaters

[fast dew]

The email the operator sent after the lotus eaters... because it gives us the 1999 quest. So it's still sent after the lotus eaters.

There's the quest completion email, being Loid's

And there's the email triggered by being able to access The Hex, which also happens after the lotus eaters

When the 1999 quest dropped, we got the operator email

[drifting lintel]

Lotus eaters -> loid email -> operator email -> drifter goes back in time -> "kalymos sequence is complete" -> dark refractory

[hollow siren]

yes, but in-universe some time passes between those quests, since Loid needs to prepare everything

it's not like immediately after

[hollow siren]

yup, and during the Old Peace quest Drifter still has not returned from 1999. They only return after it since Loid needs them to handle the Triad

[fast dew]

...no its. Its

Lotus eaters -> Loid email telling us to prepare -> dark refractory/time travel to the hex -> good ending to the hex -> kalymos sequence is complete

[drifting lintel]

yeah because drifter is handling the loop that kept going after he finished the sequence

[fast dew]

So. The line where the lotus says "this is the only way to find Albrecht" at the start of the quest is not true.

[drifting lintel]

Do you just not understand time travel?

[fast dew]

Because according to you, the drifter has not returned yet, by the time of the old peace.

[drifting lintel]

It was true, because they knew Albrecht was on Tau and they're digging though memories so they can be prepared for when they go to tau

[fast dew]

Which is what I was saying.

Because its at the first break of the dark refractory.

[drifting lintel]

They know he's on Tau because the drifter told them

[hollow siren]

They've informed Loid that the Sequence is complete, but then went back to 1999 to keep the Loop going and do the Roundtable Bar stuff

[fast dew]

We don't know if he's on tau???

We have "tau is in sight"

But thats not a confirmation that he got to Tau

[drifting lintel]

At the end of 1999 he literally says Tau is in sight. As in "I'm going to tau"

[hollow siren]

Albrecht and Rusalka disappear after the Loop is complete, and the only clue we have is Albrecht seemingly having Tau as a goal in mind

[glass sluice]

It's confirmed in the KIM's that the Drifter often leaves 1999, and returns.

[hollow siren]

thus we investigate the only direct memories we have of Tau

[fast dew]

Yeah, which doesn't mean he's on tau if he's saying its soon

[hollow siren]

He said that thousands of years ago. They're trying to figure out and prepare for if he got to Tau since then

[fast dew]

So how would going through old memories of tau help that?

If he would be on tau, in the current time?

[strange turtle]

The Original Sin Snack

[hollow siren]

It's the only direct traces we have of Tau

And note the "prepare"

[drifting lintel]

Oh my f*cking god...

He. Says. Something. Weird. About. Tau.

Drifter. Tells. Them. He. Left. 1999. And. Said. Something. Weird. About. Tau.

Lotus. Has. Us. Look. Into. Tau.

[hollow siren]

"Albrecht's gone. Rusalka too."

[fast dew]

Also can you stop trying to evade the automod? Like ik its a shit ass automod but I dont want you getting warned for it

[hollow siren]

Rusalka got taken to Duviri, and the only lead we have on where Albrecht went is him mentioning Tau

[fast dew]

And thats fair, but its not our only way to know if he went there if we are supposed to prepare for it

[drifting lintel]

No it just doesn't let me send if I say f*ck. I've accidentally messed up a couple times.

[hollow siren]

and the only way we can prepare for Tau at the moment is unveiling the memories Operator has of it

[strange turtle]

Yeah thats automod

[fast dew]

Im still unsure as to why Albrecht even has the dark refractory

[fast dew]

So using the asterisk to avoid it is evading automod, so i wouldn't suggest it

[hollow siren]

Might be tied to his post-Void recovery

[drifting lintel]

Because he's old? The only records he can easily keep ahold of in-between timelines is his own memory and stuff on the Kim so he uses it the way Sherlock uses the mind palace

[fast dew]

Its specifically resistant against the infestation, it has a astronomical clock of Tau, and "places a murderous burden on the user"

[fast dew]

Ehh, Albrecht doesn't seem to have any real issues with memory, and the machine seems to be purpose built for tau

[drifting lintel]

Or maybe he has it as part of his big master plan to kill a god.

[glass sluice]

I do wonder sometimes, if DE are delaying the Tau stuff so much because they know it'll be a "make or break" situation for certain players.
Rebb even hinted as such in that interview the other day.

[fast dew]

And how would he know that we'd need to access memories of tau if he never met us 😭

He met the drifter, and is aware of operator

But he goes on to say that he is awaiting a chosen operator, meaning he doesn't know of the operator that could do what he needed

[drifting lintel]

Records from the future?
He might know about margulis erasing memories because he has bounced all over the timeline trying to kill the indifference

[drifting lintel]

That's not what that phrase means at all...

[fast dew]

Its later stated by Loid that they were unsure if they would even come, meaning they did not truly know if there was one.

[glass sluice]

This conversation would go a lot more smoothly if people typed out full sentences and stopped trying to post "gotchas".

[fast dew]

Which is why the vitrium has murmur specific defences

[drifting lintel]

No ... It means that one exists and they were unsure if they would actually show up.

Also it's loid. He wasn't told everything.
Maybe Albrecht knew for sure but loid was loosing faith.

[fast dew]

If Albrecht made the defences for the vitrium, which he would've given its his warframe's 1 [hello qorvex], that means he also had his doubts they would arrive, or arrive in time

Albrecht has contingency plans to be safe, and if Loid doesn't believe in it is irrelevant

[glass sluice]

Are they specifically stated anywhere that they are Murmur specific defences?

[fast dew]

Albrecht had reasonable belief that the chosen operator might not show or potentially not exist, which is why he made those defences

[drifting lintel]

No it doesn't. It means he knew the defenses wouldn't hold forever and had qorvex made for the operator because he knew everything would go to shit by they time they showed up.

[fast dew]

Because.. they didnt arrive in time.

Like I said.

[hollow siren]

The Murmur started being more active when the Operator arrived, as if in reaction

[fast dew]

The murmur got more aggressive post new war, but it got worse when the operator entered

Mm, where's the operator report

[drifting lintel]

No the operator didn't arrive late.
That was part of Albrecht's plan. The time loop was literally part of his plan so the drifter would regain his emotions.

He's a cold hearted bastard but he knows what he's doing.

[fast dew]

Im not saying that? Im saying that he made the defences in case they didnt arrive in time, which is something he was worried about. Because you disagreed with the statement that said if they didn't arrive on time, I then pointed that out

[fast dew]

Id. Argue otherwise but okay

[drifting lintel]

He put those defenses because he knew the murmur would attack before the operator found the place.

The indifference made itself off of his mind and the murmur off of his genetic code. He knows how it thinks.

[fast dew]

Waoh where did you get the genetic code part from

[drifting lintel]

When he programmed the defenses to target murmur they almost killed him too

[fast dew]

The murmur are fragments of wally, which is a void construct embodied by conceptual embodiment

[fast dew]

... because they couldn't distinguish between wally-Albrecht and Albrecht-Albrecht

Which is an issue that reoccurs

[drifting lintel]

Yes that's what I said.

[fast dew]

Not because of genetics though

Its because wally can mimic Albrecht

Wally can mimic anyone, even folk who haven't taken a deal

[Wally-loid in the hex]

[hollow siren]

"genetic code" is a bit inaccurate, yeah. The Murmur are theorized by IIRC. Loid to be the Indifference trying to replicate human anatomy

[drifting lintel]

Whatever systems they were using to distinguish murmur from everything else counted Albrecht as murmur.

Maybe the murmur share genetic code, maybe it's something else. Either way they share commonalities and he knows how it thinks.

[strange turtle]

The Murmur aren’t biological

[fast dew]

If wally knew how Albrecht truly thinks, wally would have the fingers by now

[drifting lintel]

They're the man in the wall trying to replicate human biology

[fast dew]

Theorised to be, and that doesnt mean genetic material

Nor does it mean biological

They are fragments of wally, who is not a biological thing

[drifting lintel]

I said it the other way around.

He knows how it thinks.

As in Albrecht knows how his void copy thinks.

[fast dew]

Which. Is also untrue?

[strange turtle]

The human form, not specifically biology

[fast dew]

He knows how a manipulator works, and he probably realised how wally works from his constant assault on duviri

[lean garden]

idk man, my feet look kinda stoney these days

[fast dew]

But i wouldn't say he knows exactly how wally thinks, or he wouldn't have been kidnapped by him

[drifting lintel]

When was he kidnapped?

[fast dew]

Hell, he would've known that wally would try to get in via the ARG

[fast dew]

The hex? During the interrogation

[hollow siren]

Rusalka and Viktor have him in custody during 1999

[fast dew]

He knew he'd leak in eventually, sure but definitely not through Rulsalka

[hollow siren]

yeah he didn't know where the leak would appear

[fast dew]

And he was seemingly super unprepared for it to be Rulsalka, given he was actively working with her for something

[drifting lintel]

Didn't he do that intentionally to get drifter into the situation where he would have to decide whether or not to kill rulsalka?

Which he used as a test to see if drifter had enough emotions or empathy left in them after duviri for his plan to work.

[fast dew]

And no. The Roach theory on Albrecht letting the leak in on purpose is. A very bad theory Roathe made without the knowledge of the ARG

[fast dew]

No?? Why would he ever let himself possibly get murdered by wally 😭

[drifting lintel]

Because he knows how wally thinks. That wally would treat it as a game and that he'd be able to get away.

He sets off a nuke relying on the fact that the drifter has time loop abilities.

[fast dew]

He didn't set up the nuke either, he was just aware of a meltdown.

I hate that the game uses the word nuke

It was a reactor meltdown

Which happens with and without Albrecht

And Albrecht also set the loop up himself

[drifting lintel]

He ... Literally did though. The entire plot of the hex quest is finding Albrecht because he caused a meltdown (a meltdown that he explicitly said he's going to use to get to tau)

[fast dew]

He didnt need the drifter for it, the drifter just modified it after the fact

[drifting lintel]

No he didn't! He goads the drifter into slamming his hand down and starting the loop.

[fast dew]

Then why does it still happen without Albrecht?

[fast dew]

No. During whispers in the wall. There's the loop.

And its not some time travel stuff where the drifter is also there either, considering Albrecht is also there and in front of us.

[drifting lintel]

No that's time travel. We arrived late.
Then we arrived slightly earlier in the timeline during the hex quest.

[fast dew]

No. No.

Where's the Loid email for it hold on

[lean garden]

Do remember that before the bad end you get this message from Albrecht:

Albrecht Entrati: "…T-T-T-Tenno. If you are seeing this, your loop has been altered."

Additionally, Arthur says you said:

Arthur: "So where's Entrati? You said this was a loop."

[strange turtle]

Loid says that the loop was “expanded” from the day to the year “Albrecht’s interference no doubt”

[fast dew]

What happened?

Drifter,

I can make no sense at all of these readings. Your site of temporal injection has somehow shifted. Your loop now encompasses the entire year of 1999.

Albrecht's interference is to blame, no doubt. What does he feel you need more time to achieve? He surely must have given guidance, however cryptic!

I can offer one service, at least. I discovered a clandestine blueprint among Albrecht's personal effects, for a Warframe so secret it was never named. It is yours.

– Loid

It shifted, not that it was created, and again, Albrecht also says that the loop was altered

The loop that exists without the drifter making it

[strange turtle]

If you put >>> at the start it does it to the whole message

[fast dew]

Sick. Good to know brotato

[drifting lintel]

We start at the red dot

[fast dew]

I like how Albrecht says tenno, specifically in whispers. "Tenno. I require your trust.". He says tenno in a nice way

[fast dew]

We. Do not enter that early what

[drifting lintel]

It was an example... I forgot when we enter for the hex quest

[fast dew]

We enter on the 31st.

The issue with it being time travel of the same day in the hex is that Albrecht isn't at the reactor

• arthur is also not there

And we meet the hex for the first time during the hex quest, we don't get affected by the loop

For. Whatever reason our memory remains

[drifting lintel]

Because he noticed that drifter wasn't on time. He sought out Arthur so when drifter arrives he could tell drifter that he's late

[fast dew]

Also im like 99% sure we play as operator in whispers

Considering Loid calls us that, id think its operator

[fast dew]

So. If there's a loop without the drifter, then that means Albrecht set the loop up.

Which is what we know happened

[drifting lintel]

There isn't a loop until drifter showed up

[fast dew]

No?

[strange turtle]

It was already there

[fast dew]

Because we see it in whispers

Drifter was not in 1999 during whispers

[drifting lintel]

Whispers isn't a loop. We just arrive late. Then we come back on time

[strange turtle]

No we arrived late to a day that was being looped

[drifting lintel]

The day wasn't being looped

[strange turtle]

It being a loop was just irrelevant and not brought up

[fast dew]

So how do you suppose Albrecht survived possibly thousands of years in 1999

Because he certainly didn't use continuity

[strange turtle]

the day was being looped

[drifting lintel]

Where does it say that?

[strange turtle]

You’ve been shown

[drifting lintel]

He was only there for a couple of years.

[fast dew]

^

[strange turtle]

Scroll up again

[fast dew]

... he left during the old war.

[strange turtle]

The Drifter only Begins Again at the end of Hex Part 1

[drifting lintel]

Doesn't that happen after the hex quest?

[fast dew]

Unless you're thinking of the triad and his time in the late xx00s

[fast dew]

It happens inside the quest

[strange turtle]

Yes for the email, but they’re speaking of a pre-existing loop

[drifting lintel]

Wait nevermind hold on. I know exactly what that is.

[fast dew]

Because it happens before we loop 1999 ourselves, meaning there was a loop prior to our arrival

[drifting lintel]

He's talking about duviri.

The drifter altered his loop, escaped duviri while keeping duviri on its own loop.

[fast dew]

No.

How did you come to that 😭

The loop is likely related

But Albrecht is talking about how Wally's presence in 1999 is altering the loop

[strange turtle]

The Drifter didn’t alter that loop and wasn’t specifically responsible for it

[fast dew]

The duviri loop is seemingly unaffected by wally

[strange turtle]

Duviri also just. Isn’t in a continuous loop. Thrax just does it over and over

[fast dew]

Mhm

[drifting lintel]

If you are seeing this you have altered your loop.
As in the one you made.
And yes drifter did alter it during the divirui paradox.

[fast dew]

No they didn't

The loop encases the day

[drifting lintel]

Did you miss the part where thrax is drifter?

[fast dew]

Which is a manual thing that Thrax does

No. No thrax isnt drifter

[strange turtle]

“I am going to bulldoze your building”

Clearly meaning the building that I have built and not the one I’m inside right now

[fast dew]

He's a construct embodied from the drifter

And the drifter's toy

But he isn't the drifter

[lean garden]

Ok then what's arthur talking about then

[fast dew]

If anything, id say Thrax is representative of Mother when she was younger, in the original set of tales

[strange turtle]

Thrax is Drifter’s toy doll conceptually embodied to be Dominus Thrax, the king from the Duviri storybook. Who was mistakenly theorised to be a Tenno by Teshin

[fast dew]

Tbf thrax does have a human face

[drifting lintel]

The entirety of duviri is a creation of the drifter. Including the time loop.
Thrax is only able to do a time loop because sometime while being stuck in there he ceded his role as king to a creation.

[fast dew]

Ugly baby

[strange turtle]

Thrax was always king

[drifting lintel]

Originally drifter was king and in the paradox you take back the throne

[strange turtle]

Drifter can just also do it because they created it

[fast dew]

No, the timeloop comes from the nature of the tales of Duviri. It resets the story again and again

[fast dew]

No? The tales of Duviri was about the child-king Dominus Thrax

And his emotionally stunted courtiers

And given that drifter is gender neutral, they couldn't be a king, which is a gendered title

[drifting lintel]

Teshin is using an allegory... He always speaks in riddles.

The tenno is drifter and he knows it. He's painting those concepts onto thrax because thrax is displaying a lot of abilities of a tenno. Such as the time loop. He does this to introduce the concepts of these abilities to drifter.

[fast dew]

The tenno do not naturally have the ability to timeloop

Teshin just sees a child in the void and assumes thats how tenno occur, i feel

[drifting lintel]

No but they have the ability to control the void. Given that they're in the void a time loop would have to be coming from someone with that level of control.

[fast dew]

And honestly, the drifter isnt a tenno

[strange turtle]

Thrax was always king, even when Drifter was a kid who had just created Duviri

[fast dew]

They only have the abilities of one due to the whole. We share our powers now

The loop also existed before drifter got the hand of the lotus

[drifting lintel]

He quite literally is tho.

He was a child of the zaramin 10-0 and he has the ability to control the void.

[fast dew]

Meaning its not tied to ability to control the void

[fast dew]

They did not naturally have the ability to control the void + they did not go through the schooling for tenno

[strange turtle]

Drifter didn’t know what a Tenno was though, and already knew Thrax and that he had powers

[drifting lintel]

The hand and teshin's teachings are what allowed him to leave. The loop was set up by drifter in a depressive spiral

[fast dew]

No?

It was made by thrax to punish the drifter for leaving

For, attempting to leave

[strange turtle]

It’d be like me explaining a comic character to someone and using Iron Man to ease someone into understanding the squirrel girl or whoever

[drifting lintel]

The duviri islands are an allegory for a depressive spiral ... Did you not listen to the ending monologue?

[fast dew]

No?

Duviri isnt about that.

[drifting lintel]

Yes if f*cking is!

[strange turtle]

It’s emotional spirals/breakdowns in general, not specifically depression

[pale cedar]

Source?

[fast dew]

The tales of Duviri are made by Euleria Entrati to teach children emotional regulation

[strange turtle]

Drifter is depression/apathy

But that’s not a Duviri thing aside from Duviri being the environment that caused it

[drifting lintel]

The tales of duviri are. The islands however are warped and made dangerous due to drifter's depressive spiral.

[fast dew]

The courtiers being those hard to control emotions, with Thrax being the child needing to learn how to control them

[fast dew]

No, they're. They're dangerous because drifter wanted to leave. Its. Not from them warping anything. Its from thrax

The islands are controlled by Thrax

You don't control your conceptual embodiment after it. Embodies

If we did, Albrecht would've had a much better time getting wally under control

[woven coyote]

Drifter literally has spelled out all of what thomas is saying btw

[drifting lintel]

It is literally... An allegory for a depressive self harm spiral.

The islands were once a happy place he could hide in, disassociate from his reality.

But after relying on it, and disassociating for too long it tries to keep him there.

And after he fights to leave it starts hurting him, killing him on loop.

And he ends up getting a helping hand literally in the form of the hand and teshin.

[fast dew]

Yeah. Thats true. But they do not control any of the islands.

They do not make it a violent place

[pale cedar]

Your documents aren’t it Documenter

[fast dew]

It is actively thrax sending his soldiers after the drifter

[drifting lintel]

Dominus thrax is a reflection of drifter. That's why he has all the same abilities. It's the part of drifter that wants to stay to shut out the void and the destruction.

[woven coyote]

.....

[pale cedar]

Nothing says that

[drifting lintel]

Drifter's emotions, due to the properties of the void and him being the only real person there change the island.

[woven coyote]

Sigh

[pale cedar]

He’s not the only real person there

[ocean geyser]

Warframe players try not to argue about lore challenge

[fast dew]

Its Thrax's emotions that change the islands.

[pale cedar]

Don’t you dare disrespect Teshin like that

[drifting lintel]

For a short stint Albrecht was there. But teshin is about as real as the holdfasts.

[woven coyote]

This isnt even an arguement because we know what the character said about their own experiences and documenter is going "nuh uh"

[fast dew]

We see this in duviri, at the end, where thrax is reliving his time with drifter. It has a joy spiral

[ocean geyser]

Do you actually know what happened to Teshin bro

Hold on someone grab the Acrithis quote

[fast dew]

Why would drifter be feeling emotions if hes apathetic

[drifting lintel]

That is an emotion.

[fast dew]

Im drawing v6 miku not right now kitten whiskers

That. Thats a reference I promise

[pale cedar]

Teshin in Duviri is the same one from New War though

[fast dew]

Apathy is the lack of most emotions. Including Joy.

[drifting lintel]

In the same way that the holdfasts are the "same" adults from the zaramin.

[fast dew]

Which is something we see the islands experience.

[fast dew]

No he was just healed up

[ocean geyser]

No dude
Teshin didn’t die

This is what im saying
Yall need to grab quotes or this person will NOT listen to yall

[woven coyote]

Documenter we arent talking theories
We are talking in game texts and statements

[fast dew]

"In all the ages of Thrax's reign, only two strangers have ever known to come to Duviri. One was the monk, Teshin, who fell from the sky into the lake on the island we now call Hermit's Landing. Seemingly lifeless, he was dragged ashore by Mathila who nursed his return to health. I have never known a constitution to match his; yet unlike us, he has... deteriorated... with the passing of time. The other stranger came far earlier in Thrax's reign, before even the Bleeding Earth."

[ocean geyser]

There we go

[fast dew]

Had to stop drawing peak smh

[dark compass]

This happened to my buddy Lodun once

[fast dew]

The other stranger being Albrecht

She also mentions Albrecht's appearance actually

[drifting lintel]

Okay I missed that one.

I thought because he very much looked like he died, and because he now looks like a holdfast, that he was just a holdfast.

I didn't see that quote.

I was wrong.

[fast dew]

"This stranger had haunted eyes and a downcast mien, and spoke of the Wall and the worlds beyond. He wore his hair like looped snakes, and his voice carried an accent unlike any in Duviri. With the King's permission, he constructed a great laboratory of light-smoking mirrors and Void-lanthorns, which he claimed was the match of one he had once owned in a former life. The island where it stood was known as Scholar's Landing."

[pale cedar]

This is why you gotta start documenting the lore

[ocean geyser]

To be fair
The holdfast voidscarring is like
White or silver
Teshin’s is blue or teal

[fast dew]

Its raw, it cuts into his skin. Like Albrecht's

[ocean geyser]

Yuh

[drifting lintel]

I thought that was just a difference due to where they landed.
Duviri causing the blue because it fit the theme of the area.
And the zaramin holdfasts being sliver because of the angels

[fast dew]

Also Albrecht asking thrax to build a lab is cute to me. Big ol dude asking this little kid to build something

[drifting lintel]

I still maintain that the islands were affected by drifter's pain before teshin showed up to help him get out of it.

[fast dew]

Wonder if it was after he realised that Thrax was his Daughter's creation or not

[woven coyote]

This isnt up to maintaining tho
Drifter states against that

[dire current]

I mean, it is implied that a couple of islands were lost as a result of the Rain Of Chains (Aka, Rell being unchained in the real world)

[ocean geyser]

We should probably also get a quote for that

There was also the blood from the ground thing

[fast dew]

This one will be a bit harder to find

[strange turtle]

He got Varzia’d

[ocean geyser]

Erra got slightly better at crushing Dax helmets over the years

Only slightly though
It just scraped teshin’s face instead of killing him

[fast dew]

Both do survive so he just sucks at it

[ocean geyser]

Dawg spent years refining his signature move only to fail again 😭

[fast dew]

Nah, Albrecht has similar scarring from the Void incident

[drifting lintel]

I thought she was also healed by void f*ckery

[ocean geyser]

She wasn’t really hurt tbh

Erra just broke her face visor

[drifting lintel]

It really looks like dax armor is just part of them... It feels weird to imagine that helmet coming off.

[ocean geyser]

I guess that makes sense since the neck area is supposedly metal but it stretches and all
But yeah, armour

[strange turtle]

him putting on airs and acting all ceremonial and formal.

Meanwhile there’s just these two kids sitting on a chair whispering to eachother

[ocean geyser]

Isaah even takes off his visor
Which admittedly looks really goofy

[fast dew]

Albrecht's face jumpscare