lore-discussion

[strange plinth]

possibly
implied in a few ways to just be wally

[fast dew]

I doubt it, though

Wally is never subtle about things

Nor would he be. Scared

[tall echo]

Source?

[strange plinth]

i wouldn't call backwards requiems subtle, but yea
it doesn't fit his usual antics

[fast dew]

Tbf he does recite the requiem poem backwards

Thats some wally shit

[strange plinth]

all of the entropy talk, the backwards requiems, real baro being trapped in the void the whole time

[tall echo]

But is it really? Wally has never spoken the requiem poem bits

[fast dew]

Mm, him being trapped in the void makes it feel like its more a op/drifter sitch

One can't exist in the same plane, yk?

[strange plinth]

hm, possibly
though with op/drift, one's watching
baro was having engine trouble and didn't seem to know about the evil baro portrait

[fast dew]

I think that is the weirdest part, but was the operator aware of drifter until they meet?

[strange plinth]

actually
no it fits op/drift perfectly

baro's been active in the origin system, gets trapped in the void
evil baro shows up for a while, then leaves right as regular baro returns
neither seem truly aware of the other until they meet
if the baros meet, at least

[fast dew]

Nodding nodding

Why did it take us this long to realise 😭

[ashen pulsar]

the real question is
If that’s true, what happened to eskhatos

[fast dew]

He
Might be dead?

[strange plinth]

viewing drifter as a one-of-a-kind thing, maybe
surely the exact same situation wouldn't happen twice

[ashen pulsar]

theoretically, eskhatos is his world’s version of baro, who accidentally came through the void on one of his trips without realizing it

[fast dew]

Mm, on account of wally being unpredictable. Won't do the same thing twice. But he does, its interesting how some folk call wally unpredictable, when its quite obvious when someone is gonna get got by him

[ashen pulsar]

so why is he eskhatos, why did his whole motif change, why does he come weekly, why does he say weird shit

[fast dew]

vulnerable
alone

Which makes it easier for wally to isolate and alienate. Predatory tactics. Thanks wally

[fast dew]

Because he's not our baro, he's another baro, possibly all other baros

And thats gotta mess with your mind

[ashen pulsar]

he was once the same void trader, baro kiteer

what changed

[strange plinth]

the weird bit is baro's deal should make a second baro impossible

[plain reef]

Rap tap tap

[strange plinth]

it isn't like ours, which can be messed with through semantics

although i suppose we don't have the exact wording, just baro's interpretation

[fast dew]

Im betting its wally word play at it again

[strange plinth]

how does baro phrase it in that email
-# or those emails, there's two, whatever

[strange turtle]

I wonder how many times this happened pre-Baro deal

IIRC he has a special ship for “deep Void” (or something along those lines) stuff right?

[swift sentinel]

Spooky Baro was almost defiately Wally doing a spooky for Halloween. HIs dialogue, especially the final visit really strong hint at it.

[restive river]

I don’t think he was Wally, I think he was Baro’s equivalent to Drifter
Baro made a deal that, essentially all Baros (and their universes) would be collapsed into one (crossplay explanation)
From what we saw with Wally’s last major deal he promised to save us, but never said he’d save us
I can see Wally promising Baro that all of the Baros will be collapsed into a Baro and once the deal was made Baro’s timeline was split just like Operator and Drifter’s
One Baro has every Baro prior to this event collapsed into him
One Baro was lost to the void

[humble sierra]

Yeah because why would Wally try selling stuff to us
And also while Eshkatos Baro was here, regular Baro wasn't able to leave the Void— he said it was because of a technical reason in his ship but still

[ashen pulsar]

wally lwk might

dude still pops up occasionally to say hi

in our orbiter

[restive river]

Yeah but he’s not doing that physically

Wally himself can’t even get into the system due to being confined to the strands of khra, he can’t be Spooky Baro

[long quiver]

is there a lore reason why narmer units have different weaknesses compared to regular grineer/corpus

[pale cedar]

No

[strange plinth]

beyond whatever deacons are, probably not
most narmer units are just the regular grineer/corpus with a veil slapped on

[pale cedar]

Damage types in general are a gameplay thing than lore

[long quiver]

i thought it was meant to tie into their characteristics i.e. grineer wear armor, so you need corrosive, and magnetic does something to shields (idr what teshin said in the teacher) whcih is why it's good against corpus

[strange plinth]

most of them make sense from a lore perspective, yeah, but they're ultimately a gameplay thing

[ashen pulsar]

like how scaldra use effervon, a “corrosive” chemical that deals gas, while they themselves are weak to corrosive damage?

[strange plinth]

the techrot aren't even weak to the damage that scaldra does, are they

[ashen pulsar]

they are… kinda

they’re weak to gas.

[strange plinth]

oh is it gas? i just remembered magnetic and <something else>

[ashen pulsar]

but, they aren’t weak to corrosive, which scaldra do actually deal. despite efervon gas itself dealing gas, it sometimes deals corrosive when fired from guns… I guess…

[pale cedar]

Gas and Magnetic they’re weak to and are resistant to Cold

[ashen pulsar]

as an explosive and on the viciss, still gas tho

[spice spade]

Amen!

[strange plinth]

need a scaldra version of the ignis that fires effervon gas
instead of whatever the purgator is

[tall echo]

YES

[strange plinth]

ig it makes sense, though
concentrate the effervon enough and you get more of a liquid. easier to fire that in smaller weapons

[tall echo]

Efervon is actually a liquid by default

[strange plinth]

oh?

[humble sierra]

Then I guess I'll use the water guns skins from dog days with green liquid

[tall echo]

I mean, their armor is full of liquid efervon, their weapons coat bullets in it, there's a ton of efervon tanks everywhere in the tileset

It being a gas is only through diffusing tools

Is that the word

[strange plinth]

mm, yeah. that does make more sense

dunno if that's the right word but it still got the point across

[fast dew]

Is it a gas or a vapour?? Isnt a vapour liquid particles... bear with me its been over 5 years since I did science in school

[tall echo]

A vapour is just a type of gas afaik

[strange turtle]

A vapour is a gas that is below it’s “critical temperature”, allowing it to be condensed by only changing the pressure and not temperature

[brittle siren]

Deacon is just robot I think

[ocean geyser]

They have veils too though

[tall echo]

But not for mind control

[brittle siren]

I wonder what is the purpose of the golden ring around Lua

[strong viper]

Holds the moon together

I assume. Looks like its replacing a massive loss of core grav

[brittle siren]

That is not the case

[strong viper]

I assumpted wrong

[brittle siren]

There already sculptures that show a full intact moon with golden ring

[barren jasper]

I assumed it was to provide an atmosphere originally

[strong viper]

Then it'd be all over the star chart

We got tons of moons

[strange plinth]

i just figured they were orokin structures

[strong viper]

Yes, same

But the question is why? Its not just decorative

They wouldnt use all the gold for that, its not a prime frame lmao

[strange plinth]

like. living and working spaces
and given that they were likely living there for a while, it makes sense that it would be gilded like that

seat of the empire or whatever

[strong viper]

That much, yeah, but its too gyroscopic. I'm assuming it has a function

And one that apparently didnt mess with natah enough for her to do away with it; then again she is hiding us there so she'd want it looking orokin anyway ("nothing to see here, derelict colony, move along.")

Whereas if it looked like sentient tech, well, we'd know it was her design

The orokin ARE petty enough to gild the moon, but too infighty to complete the project without making it a vault tec war crime

Itd be very expensive taxes that dax cant afford

[strange plinth]

could be related to the mechanism that kept the moon in the void, maybe
can't remember the name of it

[idle fog]

what if the grineer were so deformed because the orokin bred them in such a way that it's super duper uber alabama

[strange plinth]

what we undid during TSD

[strong viper]

Yes and no.

They are bad because the orokin organized society by genetic eugenic pedigree.

The crayola munchers are spare parts.

They are all degraded clones, specifically

[strange plinth]

the orokin maintained them rather well, actually
the grineer being in their current state is because they had to clone clones of clones of clones, etc, to get where they are now
clone rot

[strong viper]

Yes. Basically superhypermega Alabama

Distilled inbreeding from half life decay

[fast dew]

Lowkey just realised Albrecht probably homeschooled Euleria 😭

Roathe being shipped off to some boarding school, (Archimedia), with lots of other orokin children suggests that was common practice

Never interacting with their parents n shit

(Suddenly a lot of orokin behaviour makes sense - they don't have their parents 99% of the time)

[strange plinth]

and yet, ballas still calls revenant prime fatherless

[fast dew]

Ballas, most of the orokin are fatherless bastards

I do gotta wonder if they were the executors from the start of the orokin empire or not

Mucking. All the entrati family members seemed to have been schooled at home if folk who went to that school never saw their parents again

I wonder how orokin houses form then........

Roathe certainly didnt go off to a family house, he wasn't particularly aligned with anyone

[strong viper]

Loid*? Lol

[fast dew]

Nah, Albrecht wouldve been present for it too

Loid doing it doesn't necessarily mean Albrecht also didnt help

[strong viper]

True but i mean i remember someone saying loid was where she got her way with words

So loid probs did most heavy lifting as teacher whereas albrecht was an active overseer and superintendant

[fast dew]

God theyre so. Rotting my brain

[strong viper]

?!?! Que? No te roto, i hope

Did i say something wrong?

[fast dew]

No no

Just. How i feel about the entrati family and Loid

They rot my brain severely

[strong viper]

Oh, mood

Doomed yaoi featurette

[fast dew]

I have a bad habit of loving media with Gothic families who like to bring in weird people

[strong viper]

Morticia was an early awakening for me so hey

And my dad liked the munsters

We always did halloween for the extended family too

So that was our niche xD

[strong viper]

I guess their whole thing also shows how he is different from most orokin

[fast dew]

Yeah I feel that

[fast dew]

I think its super important to Albrecht's character, all this stuff about how he is. So very severely separated from the orokin

[strong viper]

I was ruminating it and he really is presented as a sort of Da Vinci among them

Like, pretty sure the word Vitruvian came up somewhere

[fast dew]

Vitruvians are just a way the orokin stored information, but, wally is based on the Vitruvian man

[young granite]

What is the future for man in the wall and the operators

[restive river]

Find out at Tennocon

[rare scarab]

I imagine we will get present day Tau, questions is how do we get there and just how advanced are they over there and if there is any way they could resist Wally 🤔

[drowsy saddle]

Considering the world seeders were activated, i wonder if we'll get a green version of Perita

[restive river]

1. We will that was teased last year
2. Great question, we can rebuild the rail or talk to Yonta or secret third thing
3. Good question!
4. No

[restive river]

We’ve already seen modern Perita

[drowsy saddle]

I still believe we'll use Praghasa to get to tau

[restive river]

How?

[drowsy saddle]

When? I thought we only saw the memories

[drowsy saddle]

Somehow

[restive river]

Tau 2026 teaser

[drowsy saddle]

Hunhow

[restive river]

:p
she can’t make a portal, that would require the sun
and if we use the way she got to the Origin System then we’d just be using the rail, which idk why we’d need to use grandma’s corpse for that other than maybe using her to shield Lotus (we can probably make a better shield)

[rare scarab]

feel like their weakness* to void would make em very easy puppets for wally

[restive river]

He’s never like
Needed or used puppets

[rare scarab]

ya, unless it were to mess with the protag tho

[restive river]

Which he wouldn’t need to do since he can take any form?

Wally doesn’t need puppets, if he’s going to mess with us he’s just gonna do it himself
It’s not like we have any way to hurt him

[strange plinth]

i mean
they disintegrate in the void
not sure how long they could survive as a puppet for him, if he were to use one

[rare scarab]

always forget what happened to ruselka after the spider update

[restive river]

He only uses Neci as a puppet since she’s how he got into 1999

[restive river]

We don’t know yet

[rare scarab]

ya i would imagine we would see her parents be worried after if that was the case

[drowsy saddle]

She's just floating in the void, like when our operator dies during war within if we get caught by the maw

[strange plinth]

there is a follow-up with them, but its a fairly minor one

[rare scarab]

when u mention rail, is it the one ballas was using? i imagine not right?

or railjack

[restive river]

The Rail is a Solar Rail
It’s what we activate when we go through the junctions

[drowsy saddle]

Railin in my jack

[restive river]

FTL travel via Wally Finger Power

[rare scarab]

oh

[restive river]

Small lil void jumps basically
The Railjack does it all the time
The Zariman tried to do a really big one

[drowsy saddle]

Reason why ballas failed was because he forgot the finger part of "try finger but hole"

[strange plinth]

the solar rail that was built (and destroyed) by the sentients
they built it on the way to tau, and hunhow destroyed origin's side of it during the old war

[restive river]

We rebuild that and in theory we have a straight path to Tau

[fast dew]

No clue why he thought this would work

If only he knew that the entrati were still alive and likely could tell him how - could, unsure if they would

[drowsy saddle]

Not the sharpest knife in the toolbox that's for sure

[fast dew]

looks at what happened to Albrecht when he went into the void raw
This surely wouldnt happen to me

[drowsy saddle]

He thought he was him

Reminds me of when i drove through upstate New York, saw a tesla with the plates "I'm Him". Made me laugh so hard i walked up to the driver and put a 12 gauge slug through his chest

[fast dew]

I hope operator at least told Loid about it. Let Loid laugh at the audacity Ballas had

[drowsy saddle]

Operator told the story during tea time between Grandmother, Loid, and Roathe

[fast dew]

Loid inhales his tea at the idea of ballas just going around opening void portals and Roathe laughs at him 💔

[midnight ice]

Reminds me of when i drove through upstate Pluto Proxima, saw a crewship with the plates "I'm Him". Made me laugh so hard i walked up to the pilot and put a dmg cap crit through his chest

[drowsy saddle]

Im stealing this

[main arch]

And also trauma. No I don't buy into him being a warden willingly lmao

[ocean geyser]

Ngl it feels like Laudavi looks like Umbra’s helmet

Or am i tweaking

[fast dew]

Like what

[ocean geyser]

It reminds me of him for some reason

Like if you squished his head into a symbol it would be this thing

[fast dew]

Oh, it does

Weird lmao

They predate umbra

Umbra being made after Margulis died, iirc

[ocean geyser]

It’s probably just design coincidence but it’s funni

[midnight ice]

all laudavi are made by squishing hapless Umbras into these... is it worth it....?

[ocean geyser]

Yuh i want to build Uriel dawg

[fast dew]

@midnight ice so. Been playing disco Elysium for about a day and half now.

Is. Is Harry's Amnesia.... literally just what happened to roathe???? This is warframe related now???

Well. Obviously Harry came first but???

Im sensing its for the exact same reason

[strange turtle]

Yeah

[dark compass]

Gulphagor is just Roathe's sentient necktie

[strange turtle]

Though considering the Star Child Diadem and his style of gilding just being so different from others I wouldn’t be surprised if it was something he/his group or Ballas’ Dax in general had

[main arch]

So I know this is likely already obvious by now, but I recently kinda realized the Scaldra Flayers use sickles as their weapons because sickles are Lua's tools when she reaps souls away upon death, in the Sol and Lua religion.

DE name for the religion when please.

[strange turtle]

Dualism

[lean garden]

isnt dualism something else

Ballas: "Before the vain faith - our people held Dualism as truth. That all things were of two parts. Mind and body. Consciousness and matter. Of our world... and the Void. It was from there that our answer finally came."

Yea its just what Dualism is irl

[strange turtle]

Well thats the general term, though whether thats in the sense of “Christianity” including all its sects or it being the equivalent of “Abrahamic” isn’t clear

[strange turtle]

Keep in mind he wouldn’t be mentioning Dualism as a religion

[lean garden]

wouldnt that imply dualism is a separate item from lua and sol?

Also arent Lua and Sol just called the Luminaries

[strange turtle]

Thats the name of them yes

[lean garden]

Yea based on Ballas and that snippet of the KIM, dualism cant be the Luminaries dontcha think?

[strange turtle]

But we don’t have Abrahamism or Godism, and it’s not called Hinduism because they worship the great god Hindu

[lean garden]

especially since talking to lyon and marie only yields "Belief/faith in the Luminaries" instead of dualism

[lean garden]

much like how originally Christianity was just "The Way"

[strange turtle]

The specific sect is called the Luminary Orthodoxy, but we don’t get anything else aside from that

[strange turtle]

And? It’d be weirder if they did try to use a specific term

[lean garden]

I mean conversely, Buddhism in its religious side is called Buddhism because of the belief in Buddha and his teachings

[strange turtle]

Theres thousand of years separation between them

[lean garden]

Yea and theres a thousand years of separation between The Way and Christianity

[strange turtle]

My point is that a religion isn’t necessarily named directly after their gods

So them being called the Luminaries doesn’t necessitate that their followers call themselves Luminarians or something, even though that is one of the things they might call themselves

[lean garden]

I mean sure, but that also wouldn't necessarily translate into Dualism being the term for the specific religion of the Luminaries

since the question at hand is the specific name of the Luminary religion

[strange turtle]

Except that Drifter calls it Dualism, and we also know that the sort of dual-stuff Ballas mentioned is part of the Luminary faith

[lean garden]

Hm, I dont agree that he was referring to Lua and Sol as Dualism

since its in the next sentence

but I can see it being a repeated concept

a philosophical school, as both eleanor and ballas describe

[lean garden]

Eleanor obviously knows Lua and Sol, so Drifter could not have been clarifying to Eleanor that Lua and Sol's religion is Dualism

[lean garden]

So it would be closer to putting it as "Abrahamic"

[glass sluice]

Don't forget that things to change over time, Religious and such evolve and adapt to different times.
What Marie/Lyon see as the Lua+Sol thing, would be very different to how El' and co see it.
and making direct IRL comparisons is also something of a folly in and of itself, because it's not a direct 1 to 1 for IRL, it's a fictionalised version.

[lean garden]

I mean theyre at the very least a hundred years removed

There are lua nuns still in 1999

because Eleanor could have become one

[dark compass]

I thought the only reason scaldra were using sickles is because the sickles are badass

[strange turtle]

That specific structure doesn’t automatically mean they’re talking about something else

For example.
“Before the New War? Before Ballas fought the Lotus?”

[tall echo]

Sickles are terrible as weapons

[dark compass]

Yeah I haven't said they're good weapons

Especially gas sickles

... gas-sickles

Gassickles
Like popsicles

[tall echo]

Disregarding the structural compromises gas sickles would be better

[lean garden]

sure, which is why I said this:

[lean garden]

^

[lean garden]

this would be an example of clarification

because it scopes down

but dualism would be scoping up

[strange turtle]

You’re taking it too

Literarily

How things are actually meant to be used isn’t the same as how they actually get used

[lean garden]

?

[strange turtle]

I’ve read that sort of wording used for scaling up, scaling down and even just reiterating what was said with another word in both actual published stuff people and just talking or writing online

[lean garden]

Dualism by both Ballas and Ele's accounts are bigger concepts than Sol and Lua

so its extremely awkward for Dualism used in that sentence to be specifically referring to Sol and Lua as the religion

[lean garden]

Which is what I said?

dropping dualism is an example of scaling upwards

which means that it cant be a clarification that Sol and Lua's religion's name is Dualism

[fast dew]

Dualism. They're fascists using religion as a justifying cause

[lean garden]

what it means is the Sol and Lua fits under the broader umbrella of Dualism

[tall echo]

I can not comprehend either side's points here

[strange turtle]

…again. Ok, and?

Loads of religions have more stuff than just the core belief system, it doesn’t mean that those things aren’t just part of the religion

[lean garden]

such as Mind and Body, which ballas brings up

[fast dew]

Dualism always comes off to me as more of a culture than a religion, but thats probably bcs of the similarities it has to my own culture

[lean garden]

Ok and?

Ok and that Dualism isnt some add on to Sol and Lua

Like you can see right there in Eleanor's words that Sol and Lua is an example of Dualism, in that it comes in two parts

[strange turtle]

No, I’m saying that Kat Kingsley wasn’t necessarily trying to use the actual technique to write a text conversation

[arctic vigil]

https://giphy.com/gifs/community-donald-glover-troy-RkMuw6XZxPqNy

[dark compass]

What did I miss

[lean garden]

Its reading off as a school of thought (much like the shit we see already irl for dualism)

[tall echo]

[arctic vigil]

Shoutout to this entire growing Ecumenopolis the Corpus have been building that we still haven't--nor probably ever will get a tileset for.

DE needs to rework all of Pluto...

[lean garden]

Corpus rework, featuring Alad V, again

[tall echo]

We don't go after civilians

[arctic vigil]

Lost potential for some Cyberpunk like tileset

Doesn't have to be going after civvies at all

[tall echo]

Hard to avoid

[arctic vigil]

Yeah yeah

give me my edgerunner frame

[fast dew]

... most of the corpus faction are. Merchants

Very few are combat units

[arctic vigil]

evil enough

slaughter for the sin

[fast dew]

They're a cult. You dont get to do a base judgement for something many were born into.

Maybe I'm too woke for warframe

Or. At least the community.

[tall echo]

Gimme a silverhand frame

[arctic vigil]

They're capitalists they deserve it

[normal mountain]

Hmm
Maybe we can help trim off the nuking brainrot if we get civilian npcs
Where if they get killed, the mission automatically fails

[arctic vigil]

(/s)

[strange turtle]

Not, that is your specific interpretation. She only says that “everything comes in pairs” and then lists examples, which include Sol and Lua. That doesn’t necessitate that those examples be on the same “level” as part of some wider philosophy

It’s a religion centred around two supreme figures and their dual natures. Duality is going to be a big thing in it.

[lean garden]

Uhuh,

[fast dew]

Albrecht has mad sideburns guys

[tall echo]

Maybe not automatically but like assassin's creed's strike system

[fast dew]

It's not hair, like. Head hair. Its facial hair

[lean garden]

That doesn’t necessitate that those examples be on the same “level” as part of some wider philosophy
So, the examples listed arent on the same level then? So are they higher or lower?

[fast dew]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/952946035733438575/1461285583681753251/explode-1768467993232.gif

[strange turtle]

Maybe everything is in pairs because it’s a reflection of Sol and Lua in their grand design. Maybe it is some wider philosophy that just caught on in the religion. Nobody says

What is said is the word “Dualism” in a conversation about religion, right after the words “Sol and Lua”

[lean garden]

It’s a religion centred around two supreme figures and their dual natures. Duality is going to be a big thing in it
Which we clearly agree, the duality is a core component of the religion

[lean garden]

What is said is the word “Dualism” in a conversation about religion, right after the words “Sol and Lua”
And we clearly dont agree where it fits in the hierarchy

Dualism is closer to saying "abrahamic" or even "polytheistic/monothestic" to me

since its a word that is used to describe the thing of being in pairs

Because again, the specific question is the specific name of the religion that believes in Lua and Sol

Not its umbrella

[fast dew]

Idk from what ive seen dualism is just Catholicism with two deities

[normal mountain]

Haven't played Assassin's Creed
But that sounds like a promising concept

[strange turtle]

And it is stated as the predecessor of the “vain faith”, in which the Orokin are worshipped

[lean garden]

Whilst being described as things being in pairs'

specifically mind and bodt

[fast dew]

Which im 78% sure is a seperate development and directly opposes dualism doesn't it?

[lean garden]

because thats where you'll find alot of work for dualism irl

[strange turtle]

By the very man who censors information on Sol and Lua

[fast dew]

Roathe... what a blessing and curse you are.

[lean garden]

Ballas censors Sol and Lua?

[fast dew]

The orokin outlawed it, didnt they?

[tall echo]

Basically, excluding specific games, killing innocents gives you a warning before giving you a game over

[lean garden]

which one? Sol and Lua or the Vain Faith?

[fast dew]

Sol and lua... the orokin wouldn't outlaw their own faith that keeps them in power 😭

[strange turtle]

Yes. When Marie mentions them to Otak, Ballas is specified as the one Otak is worried about coming after Marie and her sect of “heretics”

After they came up in a discussion about ancient religion

[lean garden]

ah found it

[fast dew]

Oh. Oh that sounds like the maykrs in doom. Mint

Why do I like this actually

[normal mountain]

Oh, cool

[lean garden]

wouldnt then the text add more fuel to dualism being the overarching umbrella?

Since Marie is in a sect

[fast dew]

Dualism is long dead and the sect is in reference to lyon

Otak isnt smart.

Well, he is. He just got lobotomised. Moreso than other cephalons

[lean garden]

actually wait that text doesnt help us much here

because it looks like the standard outlaw all other religion power play was used

since Otak said Ancient Religions as opposed to Ancient Religion

Shocker, DE made worldbuilding where there was more than one religion, who would have thought

[pale cedar]

Was smart

Archimedian curse of being human

[lean garden]

I mean yes, the sect is her and lyon, but the word sect implies that theyre a smaller distinct group to a larger group

then again, it could just be a sect compared to the religion of golden boot licking

[strange turtle]

Yeah

Theres a definition that is that and specified as typically viewed as heretical so I think Kingsley was using that one

[lean garden]

Wont see me disagreeing there

Kingsley definitely wasnt reading wuxia

because everyone and their mother is in a sect there

[dark compass]

huh hes really been going places

(game is Grim Dawn)

[strange turtle]

Madurai Albrecht confirmed

[ocean geyser]

Wizardbrecht

[fast dew]

He would be like

[heavy idol]

Thank god they changed Lotus’s look. I’m finishing up the new war rn and the boob window + the skin tight suit was so ugly

[high eagle]

Where is the Ballas files?

[barren jasper]

Go to the helmet in your orbiter afterwards and interact wiyh it

[main arch]

So something interesting I learnt recently.

Chroma was a warframe gone rogue, who had no tenno. Which is curious given Lavos was basically the same.

He was a warframe who went rogue and had no tenno at the time.

I'm not really trying to insinuate that one is the other, but I do find this parallel between the multi-elemental reptilians quite curious.

[fast dew]

A lot of warframes have gone rogue, at least 2 having been around the entrati family, Interestingly enough.

Having no Tenno usually makes them go rogue

[restive river]

I don’t think we actually know if either had tenno?

[fast dew]

Mm, do we?

[restive river]

I know for Lavos we don’t know

[strange plinth]

the chroma in new strange is more than likely not tenno-controlled, but the lavos in the leverian is unclear, as with most leverians

[fast dew]

Maybe a tenno unable to control them?

[main arch]

Lavos very likely did not, as we observe him learning about the void through Javi's alchemical teachings, as alchemy appears to be rather intricately connected to the Void.

[fast dew]

Mm

[restive river]

Well he
Learned normal science, that’s kinda the twist :p
not the void specifically

[fast dew]

I think it could be a jade situation with her operator

[restive river]

His alchemical abilities come from them being gifted to him by the Orokin

[fast dew]

Not saying it is, but that is something that could happen

[main arch]

And also he had to have that helmet on him to be able to transmute in the first place, otherwise why would he if he can just transmute on his own thanks to the Tenno anyway?

[restive river]

All we know about Lavos is that he learned science from Javi, he was enlightened by him and changed

[fast dew]

Mm. Cult language

[restive river]

What?

[main arch]

Except if it was actually alchemy then it'd have emotional nuances to it.

[fast dew]

Flock.. flock of children...... family...

[silk atlas]

The point of alchemy was that anyone could do it, so fat chance of any Void relation. That's why the teachings were so scary to the Orokin

[main arch]

I was basically stating if he really did have an operator controlling him why would he need the helmet that gave him the ability to transmute in the first place?

[main arch]

I don't think you necessarily have to be void touched in order to learn how it works

Loid for instance sure as hell isn't yet it's safe to assume he has knowledge given he worked with Albrecht.

[silk atlas]

You don't, but to say anyone when most people don't really just have the Void in their back pocket it, wouldn't be the most accessible alchemy to do if it was Void related.

Alchemy is also old

[main arch]

It is. It's ancient as hell.

[strange plinth]

the void isn't mentioned in the leverian, but the fact that the orokin feared alchemy is
it could teach people to not be afraid

[main arch]

Yes, because alchemy IRL wasn't merely just about chemistry.

It more than that used chemistry as a metaphor for psychological nuance and processes.

It's like if yogic monks were chemists basically, and they spoke this knowledge to you through chemical allegory.

And given the Void responds to the psyche, it's for this reason it's not a stretch to say Alchemy could in fact be tied to the Void.

And hell if there's any practice that could twist and control the Void, this would be it.

[tall echo]

Alchemy isn't related to the void

[main arch]

You sit in silence and observe yourself, your own reactions, thoughts and emotions. You begin to reconsider what's useful to you and what not.

You self individuate.

There's no mention of this in the lore, I know.

[tall echo]

Lavos very notably doesn't use energy to cast abilities, energy which is void

[main arch]

But I can't brush it off neither, especially when you take into account stuff like the fact every emotional embodiment we fight in Duviri (the spirals) has an element tied to them.

[tall echo]

Mathila's element is void

[main arch]

That Joy?

[dark compass]

I always thought it's more like a channel vs control thing.

With void you create something by letting it go through you. With alchemy you control the existing materials to create new ones

They are opposed to each other, in a way, which is why Wally is pissed off at us doing it

[main arch]

Wasn't she viral?

[restive river]

What helmet??

[main arch]

Check his leverian, he is granted a helmet to be able to transmute in the first place.

[dark compass]

One is entropy and chaos, another is imposed order

[tall echo]

Yes

Why does my internet suck so much

[main arch]

Also conventional science is also a thing, and I see no reason why that should be banned.

[tall echo]

Alchemy allowed ppl to create gold

[dark compass]

Alchemy seems like it's a bit beyond conventional science and is deemed like a secret way of doing it, one that breaks the "natural" cycle.

[main arch]

Yes and if it was conventional science how would that be possible?

[dark compass]

It's the good old intelligence vs wisdom, sorcery vs faith

[restive river]

I’m looking and uh
No?
No helmet

[dark compass]

With void being the one that requires your adjacency, while alchemy demands control over the concept

[strange plinth]

it does mention that he was given a special helmet for the execution i think

[restive river]

Also there’s the issue of the tenno aren’t what gave him his transmutation power

[restive river]

Javi was given a good
But that doesn’t relate to the powers of transmutation

Transmuter Operator Hood: "The transmuter Javi was honoured with this ceremonial hood on the day of his execution, in recognition of his Archimedian status."

[dark compass]

His abilities are on cooldowns. They're instruments that don't care for his energy reserves

It's like comparing someone who has a pact with a god(void, duh) and someone who does it by studying how it works

[tall echo]

Trust me, the lavos guy. In the leverian it says he was given his alt helmet for transmutation

[restive river]

Where
I have it up rn

Oh there it is, I was looking for Helmet

[ashen pulsar]

was boutta paste it lol

[restive river]

Keyword ALONG
The helmet isn’t what gave him those powers

[ashen pulsar]

the helmet doesnt necessarily give him the powerss yeah

its ceremonial

[restive river]

It doesn’t period
He can use other helmets lol

[dark compass]

Mfw my philosphical ramblings are ignored

[ashen pulsar]

powers were given as well

[main arch]

So what then gave him the power?

[restive river]

The Orokin????

[strange turtle]

also the alchemical elements are the fundamental stuff that makes up the universe. Which doesn’t really gel with, anything and everything we know about Void.

"Heat, cold, toxin, and electricity, 'the elemental forces that create our universe'.

Papa knew that the path to understanding this universe lay in mastering the elemental forces. So Papa invented the Crucibles, alchemic devices for combining the simple elemental forces into complex forces.

[ashen pulsar]

y'know, the people who designed the frame?

[main arch]

So not a device or anything like that

[restive river]

Heck Wally hates the alchemical stuff iirc

[main arch]

Just a glowing energy and just go: Here have this.

[dark compass]

He sounds like a homophobic parent when you do it in isleweaver

[main arch]

Yes because if you apply those principles to the Void it becomes a lot rulier

[restive river]

We don’t know exactly but yeah, they granted him that power.

[main arch]

And Wally hates that.

The point of the practice, after all, is to take the chaotic, unruly, lead mass and transform it, crystalize it into Gold.

[strange turtle]

“Stop it. Its unnatural”

[ashen pulsar]

if lavos already existed, then it was designed into the strain. if it was added later, then maybe an extra injection?

[strange turtle]

Homophobic Dog Wally

[restive river]

That’s even if there was more than one

[main arch]

That could be possible but from what I have seen so far the source of the frames' abilities seems to be stemming from the Void itself

[restive river]

Their abilities are still designed

The void is what powers them, like electricity is powering your current device

[tall echo]

Made funnier by the fact that he commanded a military that uses TWO combo elements

[main arch]

Which then puts into question what powers his. Sure yes we do see him use devices a lot but you can't really use that as an argument because then you have to question what powers Protea

[silk atlas]

Wdym "what powers Protea"

[restive river]

The void???

[main arch]

Or hell, Vauban

[dark compass]

Temporal manipulation is stored in the balls

[tall echo]

[strange plinth]

protea prime ephemera

[dark compass]

https://tenor.com/view/protea-prime-balls-fondling-warframe-protea-protea-prime-balls-gif-3808217756523213038

[silk atlas]

Warframes can just do that. The Infested has a lot of unnatural powers it can just pull out of its mass.

[strange turtle]

I think Rhino is powered by Time. And when you stomp, he’s eating the Time

[tall echo]

Protea and vauban use energy. Lavos does not.

[strange plinth]

lavos's devices are not related to the void
protea's and vauban's are

[main arch]

Wdym? Simply that. I am saying that if Lavos's abilities are not powered by the Void assuming the argument being that he uses devices a lot then we would have to apply the same questioning to Protea and Vauban.

Except in their case we do know because we know it's the void

[tall echo]

The mental gymnastics

[dark compass]

I thought the simplest argument is that he doesn't have an energy supply and all of his "abilities" are just tools he's throwing around the area which have a cooldown based on their recharge

[restive river]

They can be void powered AND have tech

Heck they’re infested, they are tech

[main arch]

So then it puts into question why would the Orokin use a different source for him from everyone else?

[main arch]

^

[restive river]

You’re the only person saying that they’re doing that

[ashen pulsar]

murmur also deal blast n mag

idk if theres others but those two for sure

[restive river]

Just because he can utilize alchemy doesn’t mean the void has ties to alchemy
You’d have to apply that logic to EVERY ability from EVERY frame

[dark compass]

Void and mag damage are kinda tied

[tall echo]

Because he wasn't created with alchemy in his design

[dark compass]

Vor, Thrax, Murmur

They all deal magnetic to a somewhat large extend

[tall echo]

Lavos was a prison warden

The orokin gave him his devices later to humiliate javi

[main arch]

Yes. So what gives that Protea and Vauban's devices are powered by the void, yet his not? Why is he out of that picture?

[tall echo]

See above

[silk atlas]

.

[dark compass]

Lavos pre alchemy abilities
1: punch
2: kick
3: headbutt
4: exalted Cedo

[main arch]

That doesn't answer the question.

[restive river]

Even with Alchemy he’s still void-powered :p

[tall echo]

[main arch]

There we go.

[strange turtle]

Time flows because of the Void. When Rhino stomps, he’s just using a bunch of Void energy to disrupt that flow

[restive river]

I’ve been saying this

[restive river]

Makes more sense than just his stomp alone doing that tbh

[main arch]

So have I been trying to do the same

The matter of the fact is alchemy is clearly not used separately from the void, in fact very likely it was the main method by which Albrecht was able to stabilize void energy to be usable in the first place

[restive river]

We don’t definitively know what powers the alchemical abilities but all frames are void-powered, so that being what powers those abilities through the devices makes sense

[main arch]

Because conventional science just isn't going to cut it at all

[ashen pulsar]

who knows

[restive river]

Void energy became useful cause he fell in and CE’d it that way

[ashen pulsar]

lore/gameplay thing ig

[restive river]

The void was not useful AT ALL til bro fell in.

Also we know alchemy isn’t directly tied to the void

It’s a thing that happens in the universe
Not cause of or in the void

[main arch]

CE'd? I'm sorry I do not know that acronym lol

[restive river]

Conceptual Embodiment

[strange turtle]

0 actual evidence pointing to this

[main arch]

Ah

[restive river]

Albrecht fell in wanting to find something useful, he wanted the void to be useful

And in an instant it was

[main arch]

Ah... That's fair.

[restive river]

I don’t think we know why he’s utilizing alchemy in relation to stopping Wally but judging by Wally’s reaction?
No, alchemy is not tied to the void

The void is natural to Wally
Alchemy isn’t

[strange turtle]

For the vessels, somehow

[fast dew]

Mixing elements. Combining them. Coupling them. He hates it cus is couples...

[restive river]

Homophobic entity

[strange turtle]

Papa's vessels move one step closer to completion, huzzah! Should you feel the need to withdraw, the path to the Sanctum is open to you, naturally."

[restive river]

Oh maybe it’s for making resources?

[main arch]

To be fair, the actual alchemical processes they spoke about through chemical allegories aren't natural to our psyches neither.

You are basically tasked to temporarily disassociate and observe your own mind from a third person perspective in Alchemy.

[strange turtle]

Also the mystery purpose Necraloid mentions for the Archimedea objective

[fast dew]

Folk usually cant do that?

[restive river]

I’m talking about in relation to and from Wally’s perspective
Y’know
The guy who lives in the void lol

[fast dew]

Mm. Maybe its therapy that allows me to

[humble sierra]

And if anything there's something about alchemy that scares Wally

[main arch]

Yeah. It's a difficult process because you have to effectively catch yourself slipping when you make a subconscious response.

[fast dew]

Self identifying patterns and behaviours of my own mind

[restive river]

Someone said it makes things rulier and I like that as a possible explanation

[main arch]

I did.

[humble sierra]

Orokin outlawed it because it could allow someone to ascend, Wally sees it as "unnatural"

[fast dew]

Rulier. Like. Opposite of unruly?

[main arch]

Yes.

[humble sierra]

Rulier like that thing you use to measure

[fast dew]

Albrecht committing more random ass crimes

[restive river]

Well it seems like what they actually outlawed was also just basic science but uh
Yeah lol

Javi was a teacher, teaching just normal actual sciences

[main arch]

Consider the fact that the Void is basically the collective unconscious of the entire human species but as a separate dimension.

Alchemy has you going to that dark place, confronting your unconscious, and integrating the SELF AWARE HALF of your consciousness, the conscious, with it.

And integrating with it properly, removing what is unneeded or what compromises your whole self.

[fast dew]

Euleria was also a teacher! She probably covered the void sciences

[main arch]

Yeah. No crap Wally hates it LMAO

[restive river]

That’s not what the void is tho

[fast dew]

The void is that. A void.

[main arch]

It isn't but I am speaking allegorically here

[fast dew]

It's inert until something is put inside

[main arch]

It is still a very psychologically reactive dimension.

[restive river]

It is yes

We don’t really like
Know what alchemy is in Warframe beyond it’s how elements are fused together iirc

It’s essentially just a science

[main arch]

I don't see much of a reason why it should be just a rebranding of conventional science especially since if I'm being completely honest that is just lame

[restive river]

I’m not sure we can fully pull from real world alchemy here

Alchemy in warframe is essentially just mixing stuff til it makes a new thing

It’s chemistry
Which
Real world alchemy was basically just chemistry

[fast dew]

Alchemy is heavily related to Albrecht, at least in the forms we see. Albrecht is lame

[main arch]

You have one of the best tools you could ask for to explore the psychological side of the void and the repercussions of it and how rewriting yourself could echo in the void, and now imagine just using it as a way to rebrand conventional science in the setting.

I am sorry but no.

[restive river]

We have two forms of Alchemy
Albrecht’s alchemy
Lavos’ alchemy
They do the exact same things.

[fast dew]

Albrecht is a lame ass old man who does drugs with his boyfriend and makes puns regarding his status in time

[strange turtle]

You can’t actually do anything with the Void unless you’re in it, or in a place that overlaps, outside of special exceptions like Incarnons (which are themselves due to the Incarnon Genesis that is itself CE’d at such a place)

[restive river]

It’s not rebranding science, it just is a science :p

[fast dew]

Oh. Yeah did we not make a gold molecule for like. Less than a nanosecond recently?

[restive river]

The one maybe exception is Belric and Rania’s portal which may have been established while they were in the void (iirc they were on Deimos before being moved)

[main arch]

I mean if you can just change the number of the atoms like that yeah. And yes I already know about the nuclear reactors in Japan having turned Mercury into that

Except that isn't alchemy that is just chemistry

[fast dew]

... alchemy is chemistry

Alchemy is just the. Mm. Arcane? Name to it

[main arch]

Yes but at the same time you also have to consider the fact that it comes from a very spiritual time

[fast dew]

Yes. And?

It doesnt mean its not just chemistry

[main arch]

So while yes it is chemistry it is also basically a bunch of chemists side hustling into being monks

All we did was just extract the chemistry from it and left the spiritual nuance behind

[restive river]

Multiclass moment

[fast dew]

I personally think its for the better, sciences shouldn't be swayed by personal beliefs

[restive river]

Alchemy is just chemistry
It always has been
I don’t see that being different in Warframe when we are literally doing chemistry

[main arch]

I'm not saying I disagree with that I'm just stating that back then just about everything was kind of explained through some kind of a spiritual or religious lens

[fast dew]

Albrecht is just a nerd and called basic chemistry alchemy

[restive river]

Well the Orokin did that too

They called Javi a transmuter
Bro just did basic chemistry lmao

[fast dew]

His whole "we end as we began" is lowkey so obviously about the ouroborus, which is very much important to alchemy history. Which... is probably why lavos is snake related

[restive river]

The problem with Javi wasn’t that he was doing these sciences but that he was teaching them

[fast dew]

Educating from a theoretical perspective

[restive river]

Also probably why Lavos is one of the Entrati frames

[main arch]

I've always had the personal theory that he's an associate at the very least of Albrecht

[fast dew]

I find it so interesting that snakes are related to the entrati, when I feel they are the complete opposite

[fast dew]

If not Albrecht, Loid.

[main arch]

Admittedly yes with the loose logic of him being an alchemist and Albrecht also being one

[fast dew]

Loid was friends with Dante, and he does mention other warframes being. Cold, from memory

So he has interacted with others

[restive river]

Probably not tbh
He was a prison guard
Then got his powers
Then disobeyed the Orokin

I’m not sure he would have had the chance ngl

[fast dew]

It is probably supposed to be qorvex

[main arch]

Javi. Not Lavos.

[fast dew]

Qorvex/Dante... . ...

[main arch]

LMAO

[fast dew]

Oh. Javi absolutely would've been

[restive river]

Oh
Yeah I can see that maybe lol

The timeline doesn’t work for Lavos
But it works for Javi

[fast dew]

The Entrati wouldve been at least aware

OH DUCKY

ALBRECHT MIGHTVE HOMESCHOOLED EULERIA

[restive river]

It def would have been before he started teaching others but Javi was an Archimedean so it’s more than possible he worked with Albrecht

[fast dew]

OR. PROBABLY DID

[strange plinth]

i have wondered why lavos is over there instead of. somewhere on venus, like the leverian would imply
although idk when his leverian was added in relation to him

[restive river]

The Orokin had schools tho

[fast dew]

And to tie it into this conversation, I will now imagine Javi being there to help mildly

[main arch]

You know I think if Albrecht learned that the Void is very psychologically reactive I don't think he would have put off the spiritual nuances of old Alchemy now that I think about it.

I mean it's just more knowledge for him to arm himself with for more ways he can control the void. Why waste that?

[restive river]

He initially was obtained from an Operation but moved to Vilcor’s store later

[restive river]

It’s a fools errand to try and control the void tbh

[strange plinth]

oh, interesting

[fast dew]

Boarding schools, ones who typically never saw their parents after. Homeschool would align with Loid educating Euleria on "complex topics"

[main arch]

Yeah and so far we're shown he is one, no? Lol

[fast dew]

Albrecht is no fool

That's the worst mistake you can make regarding that man

[restive river]

He’s not as dumb as most of the Orokin are tbh

[fast dew]

He will stab you. In cold blood.

[main arch]

Well I don't really mean fool in the typical sense and more so just that he is dangerously arrogant

[fast dew]

He's done it to arthur, he'll do it to you.

He. Isnt arrogant? He is. The complete opposite

He thinks very little of himself lmao

[main arch]

Wasn't the whole arc with him that at first he was actually extremely indifferent to everything around him like typical Orokin are until his experiences with the void and that's when he began to change as a person and see the Horrors of everything he's done to everyone around him?

[restive river]

I mean
He’s doing this whole big plan and doesn’t even know if it will work, he’s throwing things at the wall and seeing if they stick

[fast dew]

We can even acknowledge that he thinks little of himself

[fast dew]

Think of it as a shotgun with pellets! Something is bound to hit. And it does. Love does :)

[restive river]

He was always different from other Orokin, at least from my understanding
It’s just with his experience with Wally he saw a larger threat to. Everything

[restive river]

You’d think he wouldn’t have shot so many animals at it

[fast dew]

He. Isnt indifferent, thats why he jumped into the void the first time. Desperate to prove his use. He was only indifferent to the woman he was forced to marry.

[strange plinth]

he has next to no characterization pre-void incident
and what we do have is a particularly sad and stubborn guy repeatedly throwing himself at a wall until he broke through
post-void incident, most of what he does is an attempt to undo what he has done in regards to wally

[fast dew]

I suspect the first time into the void was him trying to off himself

[main arch]

You say that but at the same time just going through the game and learning the things he has done, especially, say, the reason and how he came to name the animals?

[fast dew]

That desperate, and scared of failure

[fast dew]

Tag for disposal. They're lab animals.

[main arch]

I'm really just getting the vibe that at the Beginning at least he was very indifferent

[fast dew]

But. He wasn't

[restive river]

He could have given them real names afterward at least

[main arch]

^

Yeah no he didn't bother with that at all

[fast dew]

He could, if he could stomach looking at them

[strange plinth]

the cavia were post-void incident, by a while too
so the 'starting off indifferent' bit doesn't apply to them

[restive river]

We know he feels guilty, so guilty he couldn’t look at them

[restive river]

He could have done better than tag for disposal and bird 3 :p

[fast dew]

I headcanon he felt the cavia were suddenly too close to his own possibly dead children

[restive river]

Even with those animals being the last of what. Hundreds?
He could have tried

Or Loid could have named em maybe idk

[restive river]

They’d be too close to his children cause he gave them consciousness
There’s a reason they call him papa

[fast dew]

I. Am unsure about how many animals there is. It seems that there was... 3 birds which aligns to the number given "3-1"

So

[restive river]

The Cavia are essentially his children, children he promptly neglected due to overwhelming guilt for what he had done to them (and I’m assuming what he did to the countless others)

[fast dew]

It doesnt mean much, but there is a finite amount of birds

[main arch]

I remember there was a line, I cannot remember which character said it, but they basically stated that we should never ask what happened to bird one and two

[fast dew]

Necraloid

[restive river]

The 1 there is in relation to their group iirc

[fast dew]

They wouldve just died, bird 3 is. Im unsure if he is capable of comprehending certain aspects of death

[restive river]

They got put in a bell, dropped into the void and died from void exposure
At minimum

[fast dew]

First group, third expedition

[restive river]

Boy he ain’t that dumb

[restive river]

Ye

[fast dew]

No but like. He describing a brutal death and necraloid is like. (゜ロ゜)

That aspect of death, yk?

[restive river]

Yeah ig lol

[fast dew]

Im bad at explaining

[fast dew]

Anyways, its not like he "didn't bother", how are you supposed to name something you cant look at?

[main arch]

Don't worry this whole conversation has proven that I am too

[fast dew]

Much worse, he seems to have thrown himself into the void right after as... im unsure why he would

Seems to be another attempt

"I must pay for what I had done through my own blood" mm. Doesn't scream im not gonna hurt myself

[main arch]

Okay well all I am just saying that alchemical allegory at least I think would be an effective tool to use to control your own emotions in the void

[fast dew]

Oh, oh no lmao

Thats what duviri is for

[restive river]

Why didn’t Loid do it

[fast dew]

The tale of Duviri is explicitly written with that in mind

[main arch]

I'm not saying it's the main one I'm just stating it's another one

[fast dew]

Im unsure why Loid wouldn't do it. Maybe he just never cared for them until they could speak.

[restive river]

I don’t really see how alchemy is gonna help that

[fast dew]

It does seem to be apart of orokin era culture to view animals as lesser and shit

[restive river]

They already were, he just couldn’t understand them 😔

[main arch]

Well like I said there is a lot of spiritual nuance that goes into it

The reason why I've been saying this the whole time is because I just have a better context of it so in my mind at least it makes sense

[fast dew]

The best, tried and true method of avoiding emotions in the void is not being in the void.

[restive river]

Yeah

You
Can’t really control what you feel, what concepts are in your head

[fast dew]

Mhm

-# which is why I want to genuinely throw someone when they blame Albrecht for Wally's creation

I do wonder though

[restive river]

You can blame him for a buncha other stuff tho

[strange turtle]

Should’ve just thought about cotton candy, smh

[fast dew]

How did the drifter embody the voices of the courtiers if theyre... based on the voices Albrecht made for them?

[restive river]

The Cavia and the Hex come to mind

[main arch]

I mean I hate to be that guy but when we learned that he kind of just looked at his own reflection in devoid and assumed it was a void spawn demon?

[restive river]

You ever read a book and imagine a way a character might speak?
That

[main arch]

What else are we supposed to think? Lol

[fast dew]

He thought he was. Wally.

He still worries that he is

Im unsure how that relates to wally being his intentional fault

[restive river]

Thats still not his fault?

Is it Drifter’s fault Duviri exists?

[main arch]

Fair "Was it I who escaped? Or the other?"

[strange plinth]

it was a lot more than a reflection, though
it wasn't a mirror, it was him, looking back
a lot more unnerving

[main arch]

I'm not really villainizing him for it but I cannot say that he's not the reason for it

[fast dew]

Mm, yeah, but. Albrecht identified the voices as the ones hed make for Euleria? Maybe... maybe it was like. Mild conceptual embodiment, slightly twisting duviri to that..?

[main arch]

In a non-negative lens yes because after all it was them who manifested it

[fast dew]

Insert the whole uncanny valley or whatever

[restive river]

Not intentionally though?

[main arch]

No it wasn't intentional but they are still the source

And as such Albrecht is still the source of what Wally has come to be

[brittle siren]

wait so from what Lyon experience, seem like Harrow is also has some form of "sentience", since both Rell and Harrow appear and they seemingly a separate person at that moment

[main arch]

Not of Wally's creation but of what he has become

[fast dew]

... yes warframes are made from humans, remember?

[restive river]

All frames have some level of sapience, but most/all used by Tenno have that sapience/personality suppressed

[fast dew]

...no. Albrecht is exclusively responsible for the creation and that only.

[main arch]

Warframes are made of humans and at the same time Rell has used that Warframe for centuries

[fast dew]

Wally, being the way he is? Thats his own deal.

He did that to himself.

[restive river]

Well Albrecht may have influenced him unintentionally due to what Wally is

[brittle siren]

yes but I don't think most warframe can have pertain a level of sentience like Umbra or Jade, now Harrow is also like that too

[strange turtle]

No there was an entire generation like that

[restive river]

No?

[fast dew]

So is wisp. The mind remains.

[strange turtle]

It was the norm they just stopped making them like that because they began rebelling

[fast dew]

May have, maybe the fingers? But even then, the vast majority of that was not Albrecht

[main arch]

Friendly reminder about the Scathing Whispers basically taking on your likeliness when you approach them.

I think Wally is just a cosmically powerful fae from Celtic folklore atp

[fast dew]

And going insane, but yk

The protos also face that risk, going insane and all

[restive river]

Wally is a product of CE so what he is does in fact come from Albrecht to some extent

[strange turtle]

But yes, the Lyon chats do reveal that Rell’s Harrow was seemingly one of these frames, alongside others that we know like Kullervo, Dante, Stalker+Jade

[brittle siren]

I know that, what I meant here is, before Triad, we only know that Rell use Harrow as a flesh shell, no more no less. After Lyon stories unfold, Harrow now is a totally seperate mind like how Umbra, Jade or any first gen Warframe before Tenno came back

[main arch]

Yeah their strain is simply just designed to turn them into frames much slower than the normal helminth strain

[restive river]

Iirc there’s a theory Wally is influenced by perception to some degree, view him as a scary angry god?
That’s what he will embody

All while he is still his own entity

[fast dew]

Im still so impressed by Albrecht managing to make giant warframes without murdering people

[restive river]

Which considering there’s a specific set of booleans that are presently unused and track how you perceive Wally…

[fast dew]

The vessels are. Delightful

Oh. And the atomicycles

[restive river]

He still hurt people to make em

[main arch]

Is this a good time to give a reminder that the blueprints for the warframes we currently have are just imitations including the primes themselves?

[fast dew]

Actually quick question was it just the DNA used? Helminth strains could be cultivated without a human host, evidently so with. The whole vessel deal

[restive river]

Thomas
How did he get the DNA

[fast dew]

... mouth swab

[restive river]

[strange turtle]

Hair

[fast dew]

How else..? We got hair used for the codas

[restive river]

He had to hurt the Hex, Thomas

[fast dew]

What, a blood test?

[restive river]

He made them and then made the vessels

[fast dew]

Yes, but he. He uses their DNA. Which. As far as I know isnt directly affected by the helminth, is it?

They seemed completely seperate

[restive river]

He specifically made them so they’d be connected

[fast dew]

He made the hex without the vessels in mind, i think the rest was just. "Oh well that works too"

[restive river]

He infested a buncha people for unknown reasons
Nabbed their DNA
Then used that to make the Vessels

[restive river]

The Vessels literally had them in mind

He literally uses their DNA, Arthur’s DNA because of his humanity

[fast dew]

I do appreciate you aint using the roundtable though, they did do that shit willingly from memory

[restive river]

Iirc he told Min and Vel what would happen
Idk bout Kaya but she found him
But he didn’t really tell Flare the truth

[strange plinth]

seemed like he was vague with Flare, yeah

[fast dew]

I get tired of tryin to explain that it was literally only the hex that happened to, which. Makes me think he did that then mucked off to Gaul for 3 years

Mm, whats the direct quotes?

[restive river]

He very well could have lied to others, we don’t really know

[fast dew]

He very much did not for the triad - Roathe was right there to show what it would do

[restive river]

Albrecht’s not above hurting these people is my point

[fast dew]

||Roathe wouldve known||

[restive river]

We still don’t even know why he made the protoframes

[fast dew]

Course not, he literally stabs the shit out of arthur in the comic lmao

Then does that stupid ass walk

[restive river]

Like it works with the plan but I don’t think that was the original intention lol

[fast dew]

Stupid walk

[strange turtle]

I mean I think Flare knew just because. They completely glossed over it when they were explaining stuff, and only seems bothered by the fact that Lizzy exists and can control them because of it

[fast dew]

Stanced up after stabbing arthur

[brittle siren]

oh what comic is this

[fast dew]

The official 1999 comic, you'll find it on the update site

Albrecht looks pretty in that comic

[brittle siren]

it's would be funny that he would be defeated the same way as Pennywise's

[strange turtle]

….book or movie

[strange plinth]

they probably had either the same amount of knowledge as Minerva and Velimir, or a bit less
iirc all that they say Albrecht told them was that it would help with their performances, but there could've been more

[brittle siren]

idk, I heard book and movie has the same ending no?

[strange turtle]

Right, and that’s my point

We see them go off on tangents about stuff throughout the convo

And no way Flare wouldn’t have at least some snarky remark to make about it if he’d tricked them into it

But they just talk right past the details about it and start going on about how amazing it was

[fast dew]

Meow.. loid has nice taste

[brittle siren]

tbh my theory is Albrecht is experimenting on how his serum could work on human, so further testing he may success making hybrid army of protoframe without they turning into full warframe.

Ofc that is really hard to achieve, but hey he did the impossible once

[strange turtle]

Not making an army

[brittle siren]

I mean turning Ostron or Corpus city ppl into proto is prob a good idea to fight the Murmur

[fast dew]

Also knowing and having listened to what both Loid and Albrecht's VAs narrate, audiobook wise, I can see why they dig each other

[strange turtle]

The Hex have this whole thing about thinking thats why and then by Rank 5 or 6 Arthur starts to think that it was actually for another reason after all

[strange turtle]

Well thats not why

[brittle siren]

wdym "dig"?

[fast dew]

.. like, love. "I dig this chick", yk?

Mm. Watched too many womaniser 2000s films. Rip

[brittle siren]

ah Loid

for some reason I read it "Arthur and Albrecht VAs"

[fast dew]

Lmao nah

[brittle siren]

yeah my brain deceived me once again

[fast dew]

Loid and Albrecht's vas both narrate. Very intensely gay audiobooks.

They make me laugh, as i can never take that genre seriously

Especially in audio form

But it was funny to hear literally Albrecht go "am I a [bad word for gay] now?"

[brittle siren]

just a fun thought tbh, the man is desperate

[brittle siren]

I wonder how Albrecht looks when he was much younger

[fast dew]

Blue. I feel he was heavier set

[brittle siren]

like younger than his portrait

[fast dew]

Closer to the portrait, but. Younger

[brittle siren]

like about 25-30 y/o

did he ever attend any Continuity?

[fast dew]

He did, at least once.

[brittle siren]

oh so he is much much older than Loid lmao

[fast dew]

Mhm. I think Loid likes it?

[brittle siren]

does after continuity, the Orokin appearance is gonna be the same like the old body or have the new one?

[fast dew]

I think they'll just modify the hell out of the body if they wanted that

[strange turtle]

Different one, unless they specifically got surgery or aimed for a similar body

[brittle siren]

I'm glad that Ballas failed to get Yareli as his Continuity victim, I really don't want to see young girl Ballas at all

[strange turtle]

And most couldn’t be too picky since most would only get one when they were like physically old and frail, given what Teshin said

[fast dew]

Yk i got called weird for thinking ballas wanting to be a little girl was weird

"You're making weird, mucking creep" brother

[brittle siren]

so wait, if Yareli girl reject Ballas, did he ask for another person as sacrifice or he just wait for another year perhaps?

[glacial bough]

He just got another

[fast dew]

Stole another child

Like you do

[brittle siren]

wow that a perk for bing a Seven

[fast dew]

Higher ranking orokin likely got to have. Choices

[brittle siren]

though I heard most Continuity sacrifice are volunteers though

[glacial bough]

What Teshin says isn't any kind of hard limit on who continuity worked

[fast dew]

Started as it

No longer.

[glacial bough]

Roathe says that how it worked as first

But that's also coming from Roathe

So grain of salt for most everything

[brittle siren]

So I would imagine that the person gave Albrecht new body must have been a scientist at least

[fast dew]

I find it so laughable that Roathe is upset over the cavia. As if he didnt kill children himself.

[brittle siren]

I need some context about this please

[fast dew]

Roathe is upset over the cavia. Roathe has done continuity. "See its alright because evil is subjective" as a response to whatever the hell the orokin society is

Well. Not alright

But hey its excusable

[brittle siren]

but why he upset about the Cavia though?

[fast dew]

Doesnt like that Albrecht sent them off to the void

Also now that the hype being Roathe had mildly calmed down, am I weird for finding the line where he. Insinuates that Albrecht wouldn't like Loid being alone with him, kinda. Odd??

[brittle siren]

So he basically Peta /j

[fast dew]

BAHAHAJA

No oh my god he is

[fast dew]

Like what could you possibly be hinting at Roathe

[brittle siren]

can you quote the whole sentence?

[fast dew]

"I wonder... How would Albrecht feel, knowing I was here with Loid... without him keeping watch?"

[brittle siren]

i mean he still hate Albrecht so the least he could do is make Albrecht "jealous"

[fast dew]

Which

Do you we think loid would tolerate that? I just

Kinda realised how weird that threat is

[strange plinth]

no, it does seem a bit weirder now that we have all the context

[brittle siren]

tbh I think Loid is used to getting teased on so he would not mind at all

also same with Albrecht. Wally literally turn into both of them and he is unfazed

[fast dew]

The woman in me is telling me to run very very far away and it's uncomfortable

[fast dew]

Albrecht doesn't really look unphased, he is just schooling his expression

And loid absolutely would mind being. I guess hit on?? That's what the line feels like

[fast dew]

thank you i felt insane trying to explain it to a person

[brittle siren]

I would imagine Loid saying "ew" to Roathe

[fast dew]

Like i could see roathe meaning murder, but literally everyone else in the vicinity would beat the shit out of Roathe for it

[brittle siren]

I don't think Roathe really want to kill anyone beside Albrecht

Tbh up until this point, his killing spree is from Nikoth order

[strange plinth]

roathe even addresses the murder thing in a few chats
it isn't useful to him, and anyone he didn't kill would just kill him for it
but anything else seems. both weird and a little out of character?

[glacial bough]

It's not about want

[fast dew]

I'll continue to dog on the writer of the kims - but it feels like her writing style for villain characters peeked through with Roathe. Allegedly, of course.

[brittle siren]

He certainly not a mindless killer, he just kill because Nikoth make him to do that

[fast dew]

From the short amount I could stomach of the most popular series I. Feel Roathe and the lead of that series to be very similar

[brittle siren]

I would imagine that he was sent to Nikoth when he was pretty young

[glacial bough]

Not a mindless killer no, but he absolutely wouldn't be hesitant or unwilling. Killing was still his job and something he studied

[fast dew]

He does liken a butler to an assassin. Mm. Wonder if thats related to our favourite butler.

[brittle siren]

i watch so many trope about a child that raise to be a killer, they are not hesitant to kill, but at the same time, they still feel some form of guilt

I think this apply on Roathe pretty well

If I would blame anyone for anything, Nikoth and Orokin Empire are at fault.

[glacial bough]

Roathe has not shown any signs that's he feels guilty about killing

[brittle siren]

he does when his "friends" dead though

ofc killing some clone or adaptive robot won't make him cry

[glacial bough]

He's sad about his men dying, yes

but that's an entirely separate thing

Roathe is still an Orokin in demeanor, just self aware and still willing to excuse it

[strange plinth]

he has no qualms about killing Lyon or Marie, nothing regarding Loid or the family
but it wouldn't be useful to him, he says so himself

[fast dew]

I want to pull Roathe's by the hair and shove those lattice braids into those roller conveyors. Let the man get scalped.

Mm. Thats a violent thought

[mystic lynx]

What happened to the original on-lyne member?

[fast dew]

The original onlyne members? No clue

[strange plinth]

they're safe, somewhere, according to some eleanor dialogue

[fast dew]

Mm? Mint.

[strange plinth]

she reassures aoi that they're fine

[fast dew]

Albrecht can sleep at night knowing they're fine

Do we think kalymos would like salami?

[brittle siren]

i mean Kavat is omnivore

[tall echo]

I would not mind loid being an alfred pennyworth type butler

[barren jasper]

https://tenor.com/view/sebastian-michaelis-kuroshitsuji-black-butler-book-of-circus-season-3-gif-1367602409758688400

Maybe loid is insane at fighting

[tall echo]

We do know he can use a zylok

I wonder if orokin gold is oxium...

Either orokin gold is extremely hollow/light or they have insanely strong necks

[brittle siren]

I mean he survive the Fragment One

[humble sierra]

The 'P' in Loid stands for pacifist

[faint spire]

I had assumed orokin gold was Endo

[tall echo]

Bruh

[glass sluice]

Endo is just the ghost of fusion cores past.

[stiff beacon]

could just be pyrite tbh

[brittle siren]

I doubt Orokin gold is cheap gold because if so how tf it can hold the entire moon

[tall echo]

I didn't say that though, did I

[brittle siren]

you said "hollow"

that literally cheap gold

[tall echo]

No??

[glass sluice]

I mean, not necessarily.

Birds bones are hollow, but you don't call eagles "cheap".

[brittle siren]

tbh I was compare to gold ring irl that hollow inside

not solid gold ring

[glass sluice]

Unless you're making a chirp/cheap joke, of course.

[brittle siren]

also unrelated to Orokin gold, I wish we could invite dating triad to Orbiter or the camp

the dating captura is cool and all but I want to see them greeting me every time I finished my mission

[glass sluice]

The camp would make sense, since our Hex date makes it very clear that they do not want to be invited into a poly.
Although some do want to meet them.

[tall echo]

Two of them do

[brittle siren]

the other does not?

also 2 here is Arthur and Lettie right?

[tall echo]

Yes

[glass sluice]

Aoi wants to meet them.

Apologies, I haven't gone through the Hex like a wildfire to know all 6.

[tall echo]

Neither have I

[brittle siren]

yeah I think all of them would like to meet the Triad

[glass sluice]

I just assumed it was a generic response that was moderately changed for each Hex.

even if some would be less inclined to agree to it at all, they need to be cool with it in such a long-term game.

[brittle siren]

also this happened, in Isleweaver

[tall echo]

It is, but arthur and lettie explain they're not into poly in other convos

[glass sluice]

Lettie also specifically mentions that she can't date any of the other Hex in her "moved in" dialogue.
Basically "no to arthur/quincy/amir", and doesn't even mention Aoi and El'.

[fast dew]

Lettie in general is just. Against poly for herself, which is fair

Not for everyone

And its weird to date your friend sometimes. What do you do after you break up? Shit can get awkward

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/952946035733438575/1461285583681753251/explode-1768467993232.gif

[midnight ice]

i know they bicker the hell off when youre not looking/in duviri

[strange plinth]

exact wording for anyone curious
Arthur, r5c7/r4c5
-# Drifter: I mean, I can have feelings for more than one person.
-# Arthur: Sure, but I can't. And I'm not comfortable with this.
Lettie, r5c4
-# Lettie: And I'm into some fringe things
-# But swinging isn't one, lo siento

[dark compass]

the fact you can turn this arthur dialogue into a breakup is so hellish

"oh yeah youre right, our relationship is over"

[brittle siren]

for Lettie, it more like she hate doing it with other ppl on bed particularly

for Arthur, it's kinda more complicated, he still sound uncomfortable, but willing to see and try how it's goes. He still does not want to see us poly in front of him ofc

[dark compass]

He's definitely not ok with it but trying for your sake

The fact you have a unique option to just turn it into a breakup is really, really mean

[brittle siren]

tbh now I'm reading these, my thought is the Hex kinda "let us go" in a way here. They knew that Drifter eventually have to go back to the current time, and their existence eventually snuff out by the strain in them. It like they hope that even if they are no longer here, Drifter would still able to happy to move on from their imminent death or sth

[dark compass]

[brittle siren]

wait Arthur consent chat can be breakup too?

[strange plinth]

the fact that arthur is the only one you can do this to is weird

[dark compass]

Yeah

It's a unique option

He says he isn't ok with it and you can try convincing him so that he very reluctantly agrees, but you also can just go

"oh okay then we break up"

[brittle siren]

Tbh poly relationship can be really complicated

One kind is person A love B and C, but B and C does not love each other (and this is the case for Drifter)

The other kind is all parties love each other

[strange plinth]

iirc Amir also kinda does that
he makes it fairly clear that he goes along because he doesn't want to lose you

[brittle siren]

wait do we even have consent chat for Triad??

[strange plinth]

what we do in-game is barely poly
drifter is just in two relationships that know about the other, there's no interaction between the other two

[brittle siren]

like I said, poly is kinda complicated, even if barely one, it still multiple relationship at once

[dark compass]

Yeah but replying to "I'm not ok with this, but I don't want to lose you"
"Ok I'm ending our relationship"

[brittle siren]

yeah dating Arthur is like walking on the thin string

[dark compass]

And they're giving you the scissors to just snap it here

Not a very healthy way of handling it

[brittle siren]

yeah but sadly that is how many relationship end irl too, pretty realistic if you tell me

[fast dew]

Its not poly. Its an open relationship.

Theres a big difference

[brittle siren]

interesting

[fast dew]

Poly is usually when all parties like each other, or at the very least interact

[dark compass]

It's not cheating it it's time trav-

https://tenor.com/view/stinky-loser-tiny-kitten-explode-gif-15623895175038521381

[fast dew]

Mm. I feel as if i need to explain it better.

If you were to get married in a poly relationship, you'd marry all parties, with all parties marrying each other as well. A is married to B and C, B is married to A and C, C is married to A and B.

Open relationships are "go my partner, go find someone else but still also want me too"

[brittle siren]

thanks for the info

[dark compass]

is there a contract to sign between all parties

[fast dew]

Is that not what marriage is? Just a really overblown contract?

[dark compass]

yeah but in a poly relationship

is it like a business meeting

[fast dew]

I mean. Its more based on trust?

Depends if its closed or open. Shit is just... complex sometimes

[dark compass]

ok i cant make a funny joke out of this

things are too serious

[fast dew]

Mm. These terms sound like shit id use to explain furry shit

Woe the concept of a closed species upon ye

[dark compass]

95% of my friends are furries, the pathogen will take me too one day

i still dont quite understand that

oh well

there will be time, eventually

<@&778745217037238293>

grok free money

[brittle siren]

gone, reduced to atoms

[dark compass]

NOO MY GROK FREE MONEY

[brittle siren]

ngl I still dont understand why they screenshot like that

like every discord image scam is the same thing for some reason

[dark compass]

its the "nigerian prince" strategy

[brittle siren]

another kind is "I drew some of this, could you validated ỉt for me" then proceed to ask me commission them (and using the same art even though these ppl are different ppl)

[dark compass]

theyll purposely make it look less convincing because people who would be set off by something more high effort are not going to be scammed either way

[brittle siren]

anyway warframe

[dark compass]

some are just really desperate artists tbh

some are also just scammers who steal art

[brittle siren]

no like they use the same image and said that they "drew it"

and send a lot image too

[dark compass]

oh yeah those are just scammers

i just know at least one person who tried the so called proactive marketing

[brittle siren]

normal artist is not going to blatantly doing this, especially on stranger

like I've never talk to them once

[fast dew]

Become one of us. Its hell and the fandom hates anyone that isnt a cis gay man, but hey. Uh. You got ":3" rights

[dark compass]

I already have the ":3" rights

[fast dew]

Real. So go on. Take the last step make a fursona

[dark compass]

I have too many self identification issues to have one

But do YOU have one

[fast dew]

I have 3 lmfao

2 protogens, one only exists to piss off closed species puritans, and the dragon i might turn into a wickerbeast

[strange turtle]

A wickerbeast?

Like

Wickerman??

[dark compass]

Ok fair

I'm not good enough at having an identity to have a fursona