lore-discussion

[restive river]

Drifter are tenno

Tenno
10-0
Zariman 10-0
The people of the Zariman are Tenno

Tenno is ofc also the warrior caste, but said caste is primarily made up of those children from the Zariman

Also yes the tenno do age

[dry oracle]

It feels too simple

[restive river]

Rell dies from old age and the reason no other tenno has is because of cryosleep
Aside from Drifter, if you count them and tbh you should, who grew up and then was stuck in a time loop

[shadow ingot]

The A squad

I know these frames were stolen by the Rebels, but imagine if the Tenno were trapped inside them and couldn't escape until you defeated them.

[narrow pendant]

that is quite literally whats hinted at

the ascaris prime is locking the tenno inside

[dry oracle]

Stolen or cloned?

[narrow pendant]

overriding their control

[shadow ingot]

Stolen

[rancid tinsel]

what about order 66? lol

[shadow ingot]

You cant really clone a Warframe. You'd have to make it from scratch

[narrow pendant]

well clone as in print it at the foundry works

[shadow ingot]

These 6 were probably formed as a team before being stolen, I doubt they'd be able to take them without backup helping out. They would've needed to be separated.

[narrow pendant]

the prelude reveals the radiation the orokin found that locks tenno inside warframe
then in the old peace we got the line "look at what my ascaris did to one of your warframes. what happened to its operator can happen to you too."

[shadow ingot]

The music that plays during their boss fight, you can hear war-like chanting in the song. Like the Tenno who are trapped inside are harmonizing you to defeat them and set them free.

[narrow pendant]

i like to believe the jojoposing is still them

[shadow ingot]

Captured but still dripped out

I also love the choice of frames for the Vanguard. A mix of modern and older prime frames.

Really helps set the idea that newer prime frames aren't just being discovered, they were all prevalent in the Old War

[narrow pendant]

drifter: yknow i quite grew close to an orokin, i even date hi-
https://tenor.com/view/gif-gif-20744540

[shadow ingot]

My Tenno who belonged to a high-ranking Orokin family and still practices the culture:

[ocean geyser]

So
Ascaris Prime uses the gas?

[narrow pendant]

never outright stated, but from those 2 clues we can assume the ascaris prime uses that special transference blocking radiation

i mean, it has to right? since what would otherwise stop us from transferring into those frames and controlling them ourselves

[ocean geyser]

Fair

I wonder if current ascaris simply works differently then

[narrow pendant]

like the seer its likely half reverse engineered half recycled of an original

[fast dew]

You uh. Can't be a tenno and orokin

Tenno are folk on the zariman, and iirc there was no orokin on the zariman

Also I wouldnt be associating yourself to child kidnapping and killing, usual and regular abusers, who benefit from slave labour and willing supports and encourages it

[normal mountain]

Eh, could be possible
Highly unlikely, but possible
I could see an Orokin kid sneaking aboard the Zariman
and flashing some sort of identification card to keep mouths shut

Hmm...
An idea for NPC Tenno...

[shadow ingot]

Too bad, I'm dripped out

[shadow ingot]

Going off the Felarx weapon description, those upon the Zariman were accepted into Orokin culture and society. At least those of any importance.

[fast dew]

They're apart of the empire. Doesn't mean they're there.

[normal mountain]

I'm referring to the idea of one being Orokin before the Zariman, but ye, I suppose

[shadow ingot]

The class of Orokin is less of a biological thing, and more of social hierarchy. Everyone was apart of the empire, technically, since Orokin were in charge of everything

[normal mountain]

Can you imagine though?
How insufferable that child might have been?

[shadow ingot]

Even Corpus and Grineer. They were Orokin, but they were still apart of the empire

[fast dew]

Know the difference between orokin empire weapons, and orokin weapons

[normal mountain]

Or maybe not, actually
Not all Orokin aree arrogant like that

[shadow ingot]

"My dad works at Nintendo" energy

[fast dew]

Yes. I am aware.

Doesn't mean you, the orokin caste will be there.

[woven coyote]

Forgot the negative there

[fast dew]

Not even tuvul was there, the executor behind the zariman

[fast dew]

Zylok prime is vitrica

VS

God. Phone. Work.

[shadow ingot]

Why would he? It was the very first jump. But is it really so far fetched to think that an Orokin would be aboard as an overseer? Especially with how self confident they were in their work

[woven coyote]

Yes

[fast dew]

Because why would the death fearing orokin be on the death jump

[shadow ingot]

Obviously there weren't any on, but its not an impossibly. And I think thay story is neat for an idea for a Tenno, so I go with it.

[fast dew]

Like. Albrecht was delusional and tried to kill himself, and that was weird for them

[shadow ingot]

Why would any of them think the jump would be deadly?

[woven coyote]

The idea of an orokin putting up with non orokin treatment just to sneak aboard the zariman is extremely far fetched

[fast dew]

Ignoring the fact wally absolutely hates orokin people and would just. Kill you i feel.

[shadow ingot]

You think they just sent those folks there knowing they'd die? No, it was a colonization project

[fast dew]

... they did. They had void scientists saying it was a bad idea

Yonta was right there

[shadow ingot]

And why would Orkin believe them? I think its well established that they were arrogant and self centered

[fast dew]

.... they didn't and thats why the zariman failed.

[shadow ingot]

Nobody expected what happened on Zariman

[fast dew]

They did

Yonta expected it

Yonta predicted it

[shadow ingot]

Yeah, one of the scientists you speak of. Not an Orokin

[fast dew]

She was an Archimedian! Second to an orokin!

Mind you, an Archimedian was behind the sentients

[shadow ingot]

But she wasn't the type we're speaking about. One to believe it was too good to fail

Hubris is an issue with them. Thats an obvious

[fast dew]

Yes

But they still knew there was a chance

[shadow ingot]

I dont think its reaching to assume a confident Orokin elite had no issue in going along with the Zariman

[fast dew]

Also, they just

Wouldn't be doing slave labour lmao

That's what the colonisation wouldve been, slave labour :)

Grineer are a great example of that

[shadow ingot]

You do know slave ships are often headed by captains who are the slavers, right?

[fast dew]

Not the orokin!

[shadow ingot]

That doesn't make sense

[fast dew]

Clearly.

The orokin did not need to be physically there for the grineer to obey them.

Loyalty gene

Whole thing

[shadow ingot]

Just cause we never see anything like that doesn't mean it isn't something they'd do. We also never saw an Orokin walk a dog so they must've deeply hated dogs too.

[fast dew]

Again, I dont know why you'd want an oc benefiting off slave labour and abuse

But you do you

[shadow ingot]

I think you're looking at it too literally

Never once have I mentioned who they were as a person or what they were like.

[fast dew]

... theyre fundamentally benefiting off slave labour as an orokin

[shadow ingot]

All the Orokin are dead, you cant own slaves as a ghost.

[fast dew]

Yes, that goes for the entrati family

[fast dew]

The orokin are not dead.

There are several orokin that are alive

Albrecht, Euleria, Vilcor, Daughter and son, Grandmother, Nihil, Roathe

Probably Niktoh

[silk atlas]

The Grineer Queens, even

[fast dew]

Yeup

[shadow ingot]

How do they own slaves

[fast dew]

... the grineer are slaves to the orokin twin queens

There is no such thing as a happy slave.

[shadow ingot]

And even if they did, I never said anything about my character being a slave owner. All I said was they were a child of Orokin elites, he's not benefiting from slave labor

He's a Tenno

[shadow ingot]

I mean the Entrati

[fast dew]

The only difference is the entrati family actually cared for their assistants

[shadow ingot]

I wouldn't call Loid a slave

[fast dew]

They buried them

[shadow ingot]

Or Lloyd

[fast dew]

....he is a manservant.

Again, only difference is, they buried their dead

[shadow ingot]

A servant isn't a slave. He was an assistant to Albrecht. A man he was in love with, might I add

[fast dew]

.... a servant absolutely can be

[shadow ingot]

But he wasn't

[fast dew]

And you are barking up the wrong horse when it comes to loid

[shadow ingot]

Because he wasn't JUST a servant

[fast dew]

I probably know more than most folk in this chat lmfao

[shadow ingot]

Thats fine, but I don't find these arguments all that revolutionary

Nor does it really discredit the idea of an Orokin Tenno

We literally have an Orokin Warframe

[fast dew]

Protoframe.

[drowsy saddle]

Also... All tenno are kids from the Zariman, the highest ranking member on board was Quinn

And he isn't orokin...

[lean garden]

precedence has it set that the children became tenno, so unless that orokin was also a child...

[drowsy saddle]

If there were orokin on board, the conflict would likely be between them and Tuvul, not the crew

[tall echo]

Wally wouldn't even consider letting an orokin have his gift of void powers

[drowsy saddle]

Plus i don't think the orokin would be willing to re-accept a voidborn child, even if they had blue skin and pedigree

[shadow ingot]

They wouldn't accept him at all. He's still a tenno

When I say "he's an Orokin" I don't mind a blue-skinned bigot.

[shadow ingot]

Probably wouldn't matter to him. The deal was "shake my hand and all kids get to live"

[tall echo]

So... not an orokin

[shadow ingot]

You don't have to have blue skin to be an Orokin

[drowsy saddle]

Tbh im mostly talking about how there can't be orokin on board the zariman, Tuvul wouldn't have been so pushy

[shadow ingot]

Blue skin has more to do with age because of transference

It was a beauty standard, not a biological one

[drowsy saddle]

Nah the skin color is literally just a fashion statement

[woven coyote]

starting to sound like dsiege

[restive river]

Bro WHAT are you talking about

The Orokin didn’t utilize transference nor does that relate to age nor their blue skin
Please tell me you meant continuity 😭

[shadow ingot]

The blue skin we see from Orokin were a stylistic choice from those who used continuity

[restive river]

Ok good lmao

[shadow ingot]

Yes, Continuity, apologies

[restive river]

It wasn’t an age thing though, just pure fashion

[shadow ingot]

Not inherently. I just mean the blue skinned Orokin you saw were usually the oldest because they used Continuity the most cause old age

[restive river]

On the idea of an Orokin Tenno
That’s just not. Likely at all, mostly because there weren’t any Orokin aboard the Zariman

[drowsy saddle]

Eiffel 65 was a profound part of orokin culture

[shadow ingot]

There were Orokin who used Continuity that DIDN'T have blue skin. The Yuvan theaters were literally places for Orokin elite to snatch the bodies of younger people

[restive river]

I mean they did continuity for literally whatever reason, it has nothing to do with age

[drowsy saddle]

Otherwise Quinn would've mentioned it

[restive river]

Who?

[shadow ingot]

It was primarily used to defy death. That was its main use

[tall echo]

Blue skin and continuity are unrelated

[restive river]

And to body hop for funsies, for fashion

[drowsy saddle]

Mfrs changed bodies like most of us change coats

[restive river]

It started out as a necessity but evolve into something horrid and vain

[shadow ingot]

Grineer Queen. Yareli, before being a Warframe, was one of those people. She was gonna used by an Orokin to have her body stolen before Ballas took her

[restive river]

Grineer Queen is in a Grineer body and doesn’t have access to refacia kits nor Orokin tech
And Yareli wasn’t an Orokin but a servant girl

[shadow ingot]

What are you talking about? The blue skin bodies we see and associate with the Orokin were MADE for Continuity. They weren't living people, those are synthetic husks

[tall echo]

The queens don't have access to the body modding tech, yareli was a yuvan and would've been altered to fit ballas' demands

[tall echo]

...no. just no.

[restive river]

What Orokin, Actual OROKIN did not have blue skin

[eager briar]

The V bloodline: messing with the infestation for profit since 1998

[drowsy saddle]

Why would someone need to be blue to be bodyjacked

[restive river]

You did not play the same game as the rest of us

[woven coyote]

lol

[shadow ingot]

Thats...what i just said? I used them as examples of Orokin who DON'T have blue skin 😭

Its like y'all are arguing just to argue

[woven coyote]

definetely watches dsiege

[shadow ingot]

Not having blue skin doesn't mean you're not Orokin

[tall echo]

They don't have non-blue skin voluntarily

[shadow ingot]

Nor does ever Orokin have blue skin

[restive river]

The Grineer Queens don’t have access to the tech to have blue skin, mostly cause they were booted from Orokin society and are only Orokin by blood
Yareli, is not an Orokin. Period.

[drowsy saddle]

Yareli is a street rat most likely lmao

[restive river]

Aside from the Grineer Queens, somehow Yareli and Albrecht
Name one.

[shadow ingot]

That still doesn't make them any less Orokin. If anything, what you said just proved my point. Blue skin is a matter of recourses, not biology

[tall echo]

The only exceptions are a dude who rejected the society and twins who were rejected by it

[shadow ingot]

Again, you're ignoring the Yuvan Theaters

[drowsy saddle]

Okay, but the main point of "why does someone need to be blue to be bodyjacked" still isn't answered

[shadow ingot]

Yareli, and people like her, were used for Continuity ALL THE TIME

[restive river]

Okay
I shall rephrase
Name an Orokin during the Orokin era, an actual Orokin, who did not have any of the tones found in the refacia kit.

[tall echo]

Yuvans would've been made blue afterwards

[shadow ingot]

No, because I just told you that blue skin were synthetic bodies, not colored on.

[woven coyote]

you told a lie yes

[shadow ingot]

The only reason we have them as colors is because of ganeplay mechanics

[tall echo]

The orokin didn't use synthetic bodies

[drowsy saddle]

https://tenor.com/view/metal-gear-rising-metal-gear-rising-revengeance-raiden-senator-armstrong-source-gif-25038929

[tall echo]

No, it's because body modding was commonplace

[restive river]

Source, from the game
Not a loretuber or the wiki

[drowsy saddle]

The orokin hated synthetic bodies... Why else would the grineer queens hate being in grineer bodies

[shadow ingot]

Albrecht, the twin queens, and Margulis. Margulis was an Archemidean, I know, but she was high enough rank to be accepted into its society. As well as all of the Holdfasts. They were LITERALLY accepted as Orokin

[restive river]

The only Orokin that used synthetic bodies were the Grineer Queens and they hated it
And they’re barely true Orokin

[woven coyote]

margullis and holdfasts were literally not accepted as orokin

[drowsy saddle]

Margulis? Frakin Margulis? She's not orokin

[shadow ingot]

Yes they were. Incarnon wespons tell us about it

[drowsy saddle]

https://tenor.com/view/source-metal-gear-rising-revengeance-senator-gif-2184767763330592857

[tall echo]

Frank margutra

[woven coyote]

you can make stuff up as much as you want but i dunno if you noticed the entire chat is saying you are making stuff up and is wrong

when a lot of people agree that your takes are completely made up and wrong.... maybe just maybe you are wrong

[shadow ingot]

Thats fine. Being right isn't about being accepted. I'm just stating stuff from the lore. This isn't me making stuff up, you can read most of it

[drowsy saddle]

Where

[woven coyote]

you arent stating stuff from the lore tho

[drowsy saddle]

What's the source

Show us proof

[shadow ingot]

Check the incarnon weapon bios, prime trailers, and the wiki. In fact, lemme highlight some stuff for you

[tall echo]

If your headcanons are getting rejected by long time loreheads, maybe you're wrong

[restive river]

“Who did not have any of the tones found in the refacia kit”
Albrecht’s is in the refacia kit, he’s a special case regardless due to him not being like other Orokin and keeping that appearance to blend in
The twin queens hardly qualify as actual Orokin and I had said in another message to disregard both them and Albrecht (maybe you didn’t see whatever thats fine)
Lump summing all Archimedeans who. Were not Orokin is wild, they were part of the society yes but that does not mean they were of the same status or were allowed either body mods for fashion let alone continuity
And The Holdfasts, the entire Zariman crew were not actually accepted as Orokin. That was. So obviously a lie, if they were they wouldn’t have had so many issues with Tuvul.

[restive river]

Where
Are
Your
Sources

Don’t just say “it’s from this” or “it’s from that” without providing anything actually substantial, send a direct quote and where it’s from in the game at bare minimum.

[shadow ingot]

Am excerpt of Ballas himself talking about taking human Yareli from the theater, he even says he'd have gladly worn her face.

Gimme a sec

[woven coyote]

......

[drowsy saddle]

How does that make her blue

[restive river]

What is this even a source of? That she was a yuvan? Which was never in question??

[woven coyote]

boy tuvuul sure treated the zariman crew as orokin huh

[restive river]

Yareli existing as a Yuvan literally disproves the whole synthetic body thing lmao

[tall echo]

That orokin weren't always blue bc changing skin colors is clearly impossible

[drowsy saddle]

RGB orokin when

[restive river]

How are you reading literally only that and just taking it as “they were accepted” while ignoring the rest of their story??

[tall echo]

elite society, not orokin society

[shadow ingot]

Yeah, I was probably wrong about the synthetic body part. But not about the fact that Orokin weren't all blue.

[restive river]

The refacia kit I’ve owned for years:

[tall echo]

There were elites below the orokin

[woven coyote]

boy they sure were treated as orokin huh

[tall echo]

Also wrong about the latter part

[drowsy saddle]

Mfw i get silver poisoning

[shadow ingot]

Elite society is Orokin society. They are the elites. Archemdians were apart of that society

[restive river]

Are you trying to like
Semantics this by saying they weren’t all blue cause technically they continued into a body and THEN were blue???

[shadow ingot]

Unfortunately I am not

[tall echo]

No

[shadow ingot]

No, I'm just literally telling you to your face that not all Orokin were blue. Thats just a fact

[normal mountain]

They weren't
I actually just talked to Marie about this

[woven coyote]

except you cant cite a source

[restive river]

Cause again, I will ask
Show me an Orokin from the Orokin Era who was not blue who is not
The twins, who only count by blood and Albrecht, who is a special case specifically

[tall echo]

A fact with zero backing

[normal mountain]

Archimedians are not Orokin

[tall echo]

A lie

[woven coyote]

yup

[restive river]

If it’s a fact show me an Orokin from the Orokin era who was not blue

[tall echo]

"No matter how tender, how exquisite, a lie will remain a lie"

[shadow ingot]

I'm giving the sources and its literally spoken about in The War Within but sure

[restive river]

Heck I have an easy way to prove your own argument
The refacia kit has MORE THAN JUST BLUE

[woven coyote]

..........??????????????????

[restive river]

I wanna see a green or purple orokin

[tall echo]

And I'm giving the simple counterpoint

[drowsy saddle]

Shrek?

[shadow ingot]

You're just repeating yourself at this point. I gave you a list of them.

[restive river]

Karrish

[tall echo]

Karishh was 1000% green

[drowsy saddle]

Also we'll never see a purple orokin, cause purple is the sneakiest color

[restive river]

No
You didn’t
I have specified what to include in the list and you have failed to provide anything.

[shadow ingot]

You're giving a counterpoint with no evidence against my original point where I provided evidence. I'm pretty sure that just means you're wrong 😭

[tall echo]

We're going in circles trying to prove a brick wall wrong

[tall echo]

Evidence: orokin body modding is a widely known fact and the refracia kit is a canon thing

[woven coyote]

a missinterpreted "evidence"

[shadow ingot]

Well we could be here all day with me giving you evidence and you going "nuh uh. That doesnt count" thats not a debate, thats just me babying you

[restive river]

@shadow ingot actual Orokin, not Yuvans or those high up in the society who aren’t quite Orokin

[woven coyote]

you are missinterpreting a lot of stuf in game and calling that evidence

[restive river]

When you show me actual evidence I’ll listen

[woven coyote]

just from the tuvuul lines in the zariman you can tell your precious felarx line isn't to be taken the way you did

[shadow ingot]

All Orokin went to Yuvan though, whats your point? Continuity was the biggest part of their culture. These stipulations make zero sense

[woven coyote]

but alas you are confidently wrong

[restive river]

Heck on the argument of not all Orokin are blue I provided a better source

[drowsy saddle]

Albrecht is green

[restive river]

What???

[woven coyote]

purple clearly because he went into the warp and warp makes you taste purple

[normal mountain]

I wanna see this too
Blue is getting kinda dull

[drowsy saddle]

Argon crystals are the source of purple flavor

[tall echo]

Orokin were able to completely reshape and mutilate bodies without killing them, yet having tech to make skin blue is impossible...

[shadow ingot]

Literally gave you canon dialog of Ballas confirming the Yuvan and what they did but thats not actual evidence? Sure. I think we're done here.

[restive river]

Yuvans are not Orokin, this isn’t hard

[drowsy saddle]

Literally silver poisoning

[shadow ingot]

Yuvan was RESERVED for the Orokin
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?? 😭

[restive river]

Yareli was never an Orokin???

[shadow ingot]

Thats what they do

Okay so you guys dont know what you're talking about basically 😭😭

[woven coyote]

lol

[normal mountain]

That doesn't mean the Yuvan were Orokin though

[restive river]

Yuvans are the people that the Orokin body hop into
Once they have done that that’s not a Yuvan anymore

[tall echo]

Yuvans were picked to be used for continuity, doesn't mean they were made for it

[tall echo]

Are you michael jackson? Cause you're talking to the man in the mirror

[shadow ingot]

NO! She was a normal human girl who was taken to the Yuvan Theater so an Orokin can perform continuity on her and TAKE HER BODY. What are you not getting here??

[drowsy saddle]

Yuvan ceremony is the where the orokin go to change bodies.

The Yuvans, were the poor kids who were about to get mind flayed

[tall echo]

What is your point in this?

[restive river]

Yareli never even got her body stolen, her body would never have become an Orokin one 😭

[fast dew]

Technically Albrecht is green

She's literally yareli lol

[normal mountain]

I don't want a technicality
I want someone who is indisputably a different color

[fast dew]

I hope Niktoh is ourple

[tall echo]

Well she would've been altered if she didn't do such a baller move

[fast dew]

Nihil is kinda purple

[drowsy saddle]

Ourple

[fast dew]

Oh i see now

[restive river]

Even if Yareli got her body nabbed by Ballas it’s not like he would have stayed that natural skin tone
The refacia kit is right there lmao

[fast dew]

Nihil transitioned into Niktoh

[drowsy saddle]

Yareli fookin ballin

[restive river]

Can we match Nihil’s skin tone to the kit :?

[fast dew]

I hope so.....

[shadow ingot]

That Orokin weren't all blue-skinned. Between that and acceptance into elite society being a thing, any Orokin that was high ranking didn't HAVE to have blue skin. It was a fashion choice, which you all agreed that it was.

All of this originally stemmed from the concept that my Tenno character belonged to a high-ranking, Orokin family. Not that he was blue or anything, just that he was the son of an Archimedean in elite society.

[fast dew]

Go my children go match it

[fast dew]

.... you can't just call it a high ranking orokin family

That implies theyre orokin

[tall echo]

Son of an archimedean so NOT an orokin

[fast dew]

As in the caste, not apart of an empire

[drowsy saddle]

Archimedian is the scholar class subservient to the orokin class

[shadow ingot]

Orokin is anyone in the elite society

[fast dew]

No???

[shadow ingot]

Not just blue skin

[fast dew]

???????

[woven coyote]

this makes it pretty clear your interpretation of the felarx text is wrong btw

[fast dew]

I guess Loid is an orokin now

[tall echo]

Orokin is the tiers above archimedean

[shadow ingot]

Yes. Because the term Orokin is a social hierarchy. Not biological

[fast dew]

Id pay to see a orokin Loid

[restive river]

Having a high ranking in that society doesn’t make you Orokin nor have you given any actual evidence beyond a singular yuvan, twin queens who were barely part of the empire and special case Albrecht for the not being blue thing.

[woven coyote]

the "acceptance into high society" was just for appearance's sake

[fast dew]

No. An archimedian cannot be an orokin.

[woven coyote]

it wasn't real

[fast dew]

An orokin can be an Archimedian, sure

[drowsy saddle]

We haven't seen an orokin that wasn't blue. Albrecht doesn't count cause he's acoustic

The grineer queens were kicked out of orokin society

[restive river]

Which I will reiterate
I literally proved your argument correct with the refacia kit

[fast dew]

Even then

ALBRECHT WAS BLUE

[drowsy saddle]

DA BA DEE DA BE DA

[restive river]

Literally best I can offer is the refacia kit

[fast dew]

HE WAS BLUE UNTIL HE NEEDED TO FIT IN

[restive river]

Omg and he was blue to fit in

[fast dew]

Chubby Albrecht needs to make a return now tho

[shadow ingot]

You don't have to be an Archimedean to be an Orokin

[tall echo]

And the queens also straight up don't have access to refracia, and even if they did, the bodies don't last very long

[tall echo]

Correct

[fast dew]

No, but orokin as a title actually overrides the title Archimedian

[shadow ingot]

Its not a ladder you climb

[fast dew]

.. it is one

[tall echo]

Incorrect

[drowsy saddle]

Most people use face wash as skincare, they printed new skin bags

[tall echo]

Ordan karris

[fast dew]

Ordan gets offered to become an orokin lol

[woven coyote]

again nothing you have sourced has ever proven your point here

and again like i pointed out you are reading the symbolic gesture of the felarx as being real when tuvuuls treatment of the crew says otherwise

[fast dew]

Such as presumably Albrecht himself!

Theres evidence he is an Archimedian, but the title of orokin overrides it

[restive river]

I mean an archimedian is just a scientist

You could call roathe one too
Likely any orokin

[shadow ingot]

His mistreatment wasn't off the start. He himself was supportive of the crew, it was only when things went wrong that he began mistreating them because his reputation was on the line.

[woven coyote]

like when the brittish crown knights someone and then they are always called sir or dame

[tall echo]

The rank of orokin was reserved for the elites above the elites, and the orokin generally made their skin blue and their arm long to differentiate themselves from the "lesser" people. Additionally, there is literal evidence of non-orokin elite in the form of the DeNas family from ash's leverian

[woven coyote]

..........you are too innocent for the warframe universe

you seriously think tuvul actually cared for the crew

wow

[restive river]

Tuvul, or any Orokin caring for literally normal civilians is a joke lmao

[fast dew]

Tuvul never cared lmao

[woven coyote]

it is very obvious the whole felarx thing and the encouragement were a façade

[fast dew]

Albrecht and his family was regarded as weird and strange for actually caring iirc

[woven coyote]

to think otherwise is just too innocent

[shadow ingot]

How about instead of clapping back with sarcasm to sound cool, you do your own research.

Never did I say he "cared for the crew" that has nothing to do with acknowledging them as part of the society. This whole debate is probably due to you misunderstanding things.

[normal mountain]

No, he cared
He cared that they got to Tau when his impatient arse wanted them to

[fast dew]

Wiki

The wiki is conjecture and shouldn't be taken as law

I do not see a source either

[woven coyote]

when you compare the attitude of one of the seven with the felarx text

do you seriously think the zariman crew was really accepted into orokin society?

[restive river]

And where did they source that info from, hm?

[fast dew]

[shadow ingot]

Again, moving the goal post

[tall echo]

Unfriendly reminder that the wiki isn't managed by DE

[woven coyote]

it isnt

[fast dew]

Unfortunately just saying the wiki said it, isn't good enough

[restive river]

Oh we using buzz words now?

[woven coyote]

i am trying to show to you how your interpretation of the felarx text is entirelly wrong

[fast dew]

The wiki refused to acknowledge that Albrecht and Loid were gay for a bit

For no reason

[tall echo]

Didn't know the wiki was chinese

[fast dew]

Shit is genuinely so obvious

[normal mountain]

Fandom wiki
Doesn't count

[woven coyote]

that the crew were never actually accepted into orokin society

[restive river]

Rebb said they should kiss lmao what

[tall echo]

Both wikis don't

[woven coyote]

because tuvul's treatment betrays the reality behind the symbolic gesture of the felarx

[fast dew]

See this sounds racist but this is actually just what happens in Chinese warframe

[tall echo]

The only difference between fandom wiki and official is the amount of ads

[shadow ingot]

Executor Tuvul - WARFRAME Wiki https://share.google/URSdvkiHPgiZwd8TsExecutor Tuvul | WARFRAME Wiki | Fandom https://share.google/SCgNqj8gEULKnIbre

Do you have any sources to back your own claims? I'd like to see those

[restive river]

They won’t even let them have skulls

[woven coyote]

so we go back to the fact no part of the crew was part of orokin society

because the one gesture that they were was clearly fake, just for appearance's sake

[fast dew]

Idk Albrecht is a masculine manly man with a beard, he can't be gay clearly/s

[tall echo]

That sounds like they're taking away the skulls of every character

[fast dew]

Ignoring that he has eyeliner and some form of lip product that makes it purple

[tall echo]

Lipstick

[fast dew]

Probably a stain over lipstick tbh

[normal mountain]

No part of the crew that we know of

It wouldn't surprise me if some low level Orokin kid snuck aboard for the fun of it

[tall echo]

Coffee stain?

[restive river]

Ok. No. Where did the wiki get their sources from.
Sourcing just the wiki, which is known to be unreliable regarding lore, is nothing.
Typically a wiki has sources for where they get their info, so how about you actually go see if they sourced that info.

[normal mountain]

But that's just me refusing to limit creativity

[woven coyote]

funny you mention that

that ridiculous idea is how this whole thing started

[fast dew]

HOD DAMMIT

[tall echo]

WHO'S HOD

[normal mountain]

I'm aware
I was there for that

[fast dew]

HODD TOWARD

[tall echo]

toward where

[shadow ingot]

https://youtu.be/dkiv0bEhJlI?si=q8KXieqIrmxM6ydZ

Here, in-game dialog of Tuvul himself giving speeches of the Orokin's acceptance for the Zariman.

[restive river]

The audacity to source the wiki to someone after the entire chat talks about how the wiki is unreliable is wild ngl

[restive river]

And these aren’t lies because…?

[fast dew]

... orokin lie man

[woven coyote]

again the fact that you think they really meant that is funny

[normal mountain]

@woven coyote As a matter of fact...

[shadow ingot]

BRO YALL CANT BE SERIOUS😭😭😭

[tall echo]

Lying is impossible, clearly

[fast dew]

Even Albrecht, one of the best known orokin (not a high bar) lies

[woven coyote]

oh the orokin so honest and always keeping to their words

[restive river]

You are too innocent for this world oml

[fast dew]

But tbf it is needed to some degree

[tall echo]

"Protea is one of a kind"
proceeds to make a prime

[fast dew]

Media literacy....

[shadow ingot]

It doesn't matter if they meant it or not, Tuvul isn't even the original point of this argument

[woven coyote]

anything a character says is 100% accurate

so aladv confirmed orokin lol

[fast dew]

https://tenor.com/view/feel-that-that's-true-feel-that-thats-xata-xata-warframe-meme-gif-15531284589461707381

[shadow ingot]

I'm just not seeing sources or anything from you all. So I have no reason to believe any of you

[restive river]

What 😭
It literally matters

[shadow ingot]

I'm giving you all of mine and all I'm getting back are "nuh uh, not that."

[fast dew]

You haven't done a source either, just wiki w no sources

[tall echo]

Hmmmmm...
I think you're moving something...
Something like a target
I can't think of the word

[fast dew]

Again, the wiki is unreliable

Only the orokin archives is reliable frfr

[shadow ingot]

Not really. We got this far from you all making arguments of other aspects, which I debated you all on as well

[woven coyote]

your sources to everyone else in this chat prove you wrong

only your interpretation of the source supports your argument. not the actual source

[restive river]

In hindsight you are really just wanting to make your headcanon work canonically but there were no Orokin aboard the Zariman, nobody from an Orokin family and the closest would have, in reality been Yonta who was an archimedean
Everyone on that ship was blatantly lied to, they were not actually accepted into Orokin society which is shockingly apparent when you look at what happened to them, how they treated them.

[woven coyote]

your argument is supported by you believing the orokin were for real with the felarx thing

[shadow ingot]

Gave you dialog about the Yuvan Theater, dialog about the Zariman ships, and of Tuvul. All of this stuff is in-game btw

[fast dew]

The orokin and the warped perception of reality they have until they almost die

[restive river]

And your interpretation of all of these are incorrect

[tall echo]

Dialogue you misinterpreted

[fast dew]

... gonna need to see a source for what ones and the full context

[shadow ingot]

This stopped being about my Tenno long ago tbh. It doesn't matter what you think of him cause he's not your character so who cares. This is just more about your misconceptions and me correcting it 😭

[fast dew]

... broski we're correcting you

[woven coyote]

.....

[shadow ingot]

Sureee buddy
Whatever excuse you need

[woven coyote]

everyone else is wrong sure

[tall echo]

I'll leave this to y'all I'm too tired and hyperfocused on dojo building to deal with this

[woven coyote]

can almost hear him say "wake up sheeple"

[fast dew]

Im right and the.... 5? People telling me im wrong are lying

[restive river]

You’re the one with the misconceptions bud

[fast dew]

Despite only 3 of us knowing each other, I have another blocked and the other ive never interacted w

[shadow ingot]

You're right, imma go to DE's official lore website. Cause the in-game bios and literal cinematic trailers aren't canon at all.

[fast dew]

We all banded together and lied

[fast dew]

Its. Not DE's site

[normal mountain]

Again, that we know of
By official records, there aren't
Stowaways aren't official
The headcanon works
And besides, it's a headcanon
It's not like it wrecks the entire lore of Warframe

[fast dew]

Its endorsed, sure, but they do not own it or add to it

[shadow ingot]

The things I sourced aren't made up texts, I've literally highlighted quoted texts you get from the game. Were your eyes closed when looking at them

I only went to the wikis cause I dont feel like logging on to the game itself

[woven coyote]

man orokin sure loved the zariman crew and accepted them huh

[shadow ingot]

Your "these sources aren't fact" statements make you look stupid cause you're arguing with DE themselves 😭

[restive river]

I mean you literally sent a wiki synopsis that was incorrect about Tuvul supporting the Zariman people

Like that text is literally an incorrect interpretation of what’s seen in-game

[shadow ingot]

He did. You're acting as if he wanted the ship to crash. I never said he cared about the people on board, you lot just assumed so.

[restive river]

@shadow ingot was this acceptance?

[shadow ingot]

I literally said "caring is irrelevant, they are acknowledged as citizens within the empire"

[woven coyote]

....

[normal mountain]

Can we at least agree this conversation is going nowhere?

[restive river]

You said they accepted them as part of their society which was a very blatant lie to everyone here but you

[restive river]

I do think that due to their radically different interpretation that I agree with this and that the best course of action is to agree to disagree

[shadow ingot]

Being apart of the empire is being apart of a society. Its not like nobody knew he was lying. Plus its literally a single person here, just Tuvul, who is nowehere near the highest ranking

[woven coyote]

.....

nowhere near the highest ranking?

he's one of the seven

or was before voruna's leverian

[shadow ingot]

Bad wording. He's not the high ranking

[normal mountain]

All due respect, let's just stop now before this gets out of hand

[shadow ingot]

And Orokin aren't all sharing the same mindset. It wasn't him who gave the crew souvenirs of Orokin customs, nor was he really apart of the crew's send-off

[normal mountain]

and if it does, I have absolutely no qualms about calling in the mods

none at all

[shadow ingot]

This is just a debate, I'm remaining formal. Don't think I've been insulting at all

[woven coyote]

but anyway that's the thing they were citizens of the empire being sent to basically nowhere

they were never actual orokin, considered part of high society, or even respected

them being given trinkets in a launch ceremony doesn't make it real especially when the crew would likely never return to origin

like they were just sent to a construction site to build homes for actual high society

no matter the pleasantries said during a ceremony it wouldn't have been real

[shadow ingot]

You're speaking this is hindsight though. You're saying it as if the Orokin knew they would fail, which they didn't. Nor did they want to because failure of the Zariman meant the death of them all.

They were sending the crew to a carefully terraformed, colonized system. Not to "nowehere"

"Them all" meaning the Orokin

[woven coyote]

they weren't sent to a carefully terraformed or colonized system actually

zariman was sent to get there ahead of the sentients because certain orokin were impatient

[shadow ingot]

Tau was already being worked on before the initial jump. It wasn't complete, but they weren't sending them to a completely inhospitable hell hole

[woven coyote]

it wasn't, trying to find the source right now but one of the writers clarified that the sentients were sent first but before they could bear results or even get to tau some people got impatient and developed the zariman project

[normal mountain]

Tbf, that source is an interview that isn't widely accessible

[woven coyote]

because if the sentients were there and the rail was complete then the zariman's model of void travel woud've been completely unneeded

no point to a railless ship if the rail is complete

[normal mountain]

Or the terraforming gear on the Zariman, yeah

[swift sentinel]

It's from the Reddit AMA, so if you don't have it saved it might be hard to find

[normal mountain]

I still think it's stupid, but whatever
The Orokin often don't make sense to me

[woven coyote]

anyway while i try to find the source for the zariman digression

my point is less about orokin knowing they would fail, and more focusing on the ceremonial acceptance of the crew into high society and how that was, considering usual orokin behavior, just a façade for a ceremony

like in several instances even before getting angry tuvul is derisive of the crew

and also only refers to them as citizens

with his direct treatment of the crew, circumstances of the trip, usual orokin behaviour, and even criticism roathe has for the orokin; i just find it hard to interpret the felarx text as the crew really actually in effect becoming part of high society let alone considered orokin

[shadow ingot]

I never said high society, but the Orokin knew that the crew was be Tau's very first perception of Orokin society as a whole. Caring for their wellbeing never came into the arugment, not does Tuvul's viewpoint on them. Everyone knows that Orokin lie.

That doesn't take away from Tuvul's initial acceptance of the crew's voyage, which one of you often said that he didn't care about the Zariman's failure at all and wanted them to die. Which is untrue.

[fast dew]

He couldn't care less if they died - such is the nature of an orokin. And he only cared because it would look bad.

You know, like how most orokin act

[ocean geyser]

I was gonna bring up this interesting theoretical of kahl managing to blow up the Condrix during New War but like
What the hell is going on

[restive river]

Oh there is a thing in game that confirms it!

[normal mountain]

Oh?

[restive river]

On the sentients going first to make the rail I mean

7. Who is constructing the Extrasolar Rail between Pluto and Tau?

A. An elite group of loyal servants of the Seven (correct)

B. A new, hardy strain of Grineer Void Engineers

This was before that interview :)

[woven coyote]

let's just reiterate points then

there were no orokin on the zariman

no part of the crew was considered orokin

considering usual orokin stuff and tuvul's lines the cerimonial acts such as the felarx were merely symbolic and weren't representative of the crew being actually elevated to orokin society
zariman crew was meant to go develop the first colony, if needed i'll bring the zariman invitation which explicitly states that

although i haven't found it there is a known interview where one of the writers confirms the zariman was sent after the sentients, and was meant to arrive before them and develop the system(typical orokin impatience mixed with competition)

so far we have seen no orokin character without blue skin ( excepting albrect who changed his for the sake of his time travel, and the grineer queens who haven't had a normal body to occupy, relying mostly on grineer clone bodies to continuity into)

[restive river]

AI was illegal so the Orokin omitted the full truth

[normal mountain]

...hmm, somehow this never clicked
Still stupid imo
Why send a Void ship when you have workers building a Solar Rail?

[restive river]

May I add that Albrecht’s skin tone is actually in the refacia tones?
Iirc he’s a very very light green

[woven coyote]

even better

[restive river]

Because the Orokin are stupid and impatient

But also same it didn’t fully click, I read it before that interview and was
Deeply confused

[woven coyote]

that interview we keep mentioning just explicitly calls it impatience

[normal mountain]

I'd think they'd be able to afford patience
Considering they're, you know
IMMORTAL

[woven coyote]

so orokin level tantrum

[normal mountain]

Ugh
I have a low tolerance for stupidity, it seems

[woven coyote]

wasn't even the worst orokin tantrum we know of tbf

[normal mountain]

-# I will continue to reiterate that there were no known Orokin on the Zariman, but this is because I refuse to staunch creative liberties

[woven coyote]

fair but also i don't really see an orokin suffering non orokin treatment just to stowaway

even a kid

like i imagine an orokin kid getting impatient and outing themselves before they even reach pluto

[normal mountain]

Also fair

[restive river]

You’d think lmao

[woven coyote]

"what do you mean you won't wipe my derriere!!! i am orokin!!!!....oops"

[blissful merlin]

Found it

Adrian Bott: Oh, boy. I think lore-wise, you’d need at least a basic grounding in the ideas of The Old War era, the idea that there were multiple attempts to get to Tau from the Orokin side of things. So the Sentients set out to build the bridge, the solar rail between Earth and Tau. It took a long-ass time. Various other factions within the Orokin were impatient. So the Zahriman project was another attempt to get to Tau, which is different. But the Zahriman, as we know, never got there. Everybody, when they’re starting out, whether they know it or not, the first port of call is The Second Dream, which is that big revelation that everybody quite wonderfully keeps secret from their fellow players. You have to go through it yourself. It’s not something that you want to spoil. But I think even players who are very well-versed in the lore and have assembled everything up to now and have a really clear grasp of the timeline, I doubt any of them would have expected the idea of a temporary ceasefire and a peace in the middle of The Old War, which is what we’re looking at here.

[woven coyote]

nice thank you connor

[restive river]

“Yeah yeah kid, get back to work”
And then it turns into a story about how an Orokin kid is completely hunbled and oop—
Ship crashed
Ship’s haunted
Oh an Orokin on board? Wally will crunch em >:)

[normal mountain]

Zahriman...

[blissful merlin]

Interviewer spelled it that way lol

[normal mountain]

I know
Still annoys me

[restive river]

Lmao

If you do think about it if an Orokin snuck onboard somehow Wally would not be having it

[normal mountain]

...shoot, Wall Man hates the Orokin that bad
I forgot
Now I gotta figure out how to loophole around that detail

challenge accepted

[restive river]

Considering he very likely caused the incident I find it hard to believe he’d leave an actual Orokin alive, given the chance

[normal mountain]

I mean, maybe they weren't Orokin enough
Somehow

[restive river]

Lmao

[normal mountain]

Yes, I'm aware I'm grasping at straws

[woven coyote]

"i said i'd save them, everyone knows orokin are trash tho so can't be counted as them"

[normal mountain]

But I like this idea too much
I ain't giving it up without a fight

[restive river]

I mean
Do we want them to survive?

[restive river]

Yeah thats what i’m thinking lol

[woven coyote]

burnable or recyclable trash tho?

[drowsy saddle]

tbh at this point orokin is an insult

[restive river]

Always has been

[woven coyote]

very intentionally so yeah

[drowsy saddle]

personally im of the opinion that we just culturally appropriate their drip

we stole their whole flow

we ran em for their foams

we stole their Js

[normal mountain]

Maybe this kid didn't like how his Orokin "peers" treated other people
Maybe he was more sympathetic to the common people
but was still willing to pull rank aboard the Zariman, exclusively to stay on the ship

[drowsy saddle]

we creased it, crushed the soles

[normal mountain]

Even more unlikely, yeah
But like I said, I'm fighting for this idea

[drowsy saddle]

or just an outcast that got yeeted for the funny

[normal mountain]

Nah, too much potential for vengeance
...which might amuse Wall Man
Which could spare him, but might exempt him from powers

Too much uncertainty I think

Hmm
Maybe we have two Orokin
One exiled, one stowaway

Hmm

Hmmmm

This needs further thought

[ocean geyser]

For that last bit
Didn’t Albrecht just not have blue skin because it got charred due to his uh
Visit
To the void?

Sure, having normal skin made time travel easier but that wasn’t the main reason

[lilac aspen]

He was recovering from his injuries yeah but then decided to wear a cloned body of a normal person to blend in for his 1999 travels and stuff

Before that it was just
“Oh I was basically flayed alive, gonna take a while to recover before I can cosmetic up again.”

[ocean geyser]

tfym cloned body

[normal mountain]

If he did take another body, it was before he got paranoid over the doppelganger from the Void

[strange plinth]

the portrait on the zariman has blue skin and void scarring, so he was probably blue post-void incident as well

[ocean geyser]

Wait really?

[strange plinth]

which was immediately after he returned from the void

[ocean geyser]

It just looks like regular blue guy

[normal mountain]

Was it?
Hmm
His notes give a sense of time passing

[strange plinth]

around the eyes, there's definitely void scarring there

[lilac aspen]

Basically after he recovered and went full on “Time to figure out how to kill Wally”

He decided to give up the Orokin stuff and decided to be in the body of a cloned soldier or something, forgot the exact thing he said

[strange plinth]

it sounded like he swore off kuva immediately but only recorded the notes later on to me

[hollow lava]

Is it safe to discuss Old Peace here or should I move to spoilers? Lol

[strange plinth]

you're fine here

[hollow lava]

Phew!

[ocean geyser]

How did i miss this 💀

[strange plinth]

huh

[hollow lava]

A big question I have is the whole Sentient flower situation. How is Lotus and Hunhow still keeping some uniqueness to it?

If the hunger from not consuming the flowers reverts them back to a "hive mind" then how are Hunhow, Lotus, Erra individuals?

[drowsy saddle]

cause they're big enough to be hive minds

[strange plinth]

the xenoflora likely give fragments individuality, but full sentients were already separate
battolysts n mimics are fragments, while erra and natah are fully separate sentients

[hollow lava]

Is that even explained?

[drowsy saddle]

hunhow seperates pieces of himself constantly

[drowsy saddle]

yes, the sword he gives to stalker, the sentient scouts around uranus

Erra while not shown to be able to fragment himself, shows command and control over sentients

and Natah must be able to stand alone cause she was a deep infiltration spy

[lilac aspen]

Quick correction
Misinterpretation of what he said

Not a clone of a person he was wearing
Just wearing new vatgrown skin

It was misinterpreted because of his line right afterwards, confusing some into thinking the grown skin was cloned from another person or so

In reality it was just him going
“Yeah I don’t have the energy of a person ready to fight some Void Entity.”

[vale frost]

After all these years, I’ve forgotten to ask this question:

Why is Hunhow always in the depths of Uranus? Can’t he leave at anytime or is he trapped there for a specific reason?

[drowsy saddle]

He was the bait, he let himself be trapped in uranus so erra and natah could eliminate the tenno

[slender swift]

apologies noob here

LOTUS IS GONE? does she come back

[hazy prism]

Whats quest are you on?

I assume you just did apostasy prologue

[slender swift]

yup just finished that

[drowsy saddle]

She'll... Show up

[hazy prism]

Cop out answer is to keep playing, the game reveals it

[drowsy saddle]

Keep goin

[slender swift]

OK

im really loving the story ngl

[hazy prism]

Thinking back, it's crazy how we got 1 year ish between Apostasy Prologue and Sacrifice

[pliant panther]

so the drifter is an alternate version of the operator

[hazy prism]

Yes and no
Drifter and Operator are the same person until they diverge at the Wally Handshake, from that point on, Drifter remains on the Zariman and goes to create duviri whilst Operator gets rescued with the other tenno and old war shenanigans happens

[pliant panther]

wait so operator sacrificed a alternate version creating drifter in the progress

[hazy prism]

Not willingly, operator wasn't aware of the cost of the deal (we still don't have the full picture on the deal)

[pliant panther]

oh

[hazy prism]

Less sacrificed more, collapsed, as every permutation of Operator that existed became 1 (with the exception of Dirfter, hence they are referred to as a "paradox")

[pliant panther]

just to clarify the reason the operator made the deal with wally was to save the children on the zariman right?

[lean garden]

huh?

[lean garden]

honestly thats still quite the subject of debate

given that the operator was in a timeloop and needed external intervention to escape

I'd interpret that scene instead as the operator running through the timeloop and ending at the point of the handshake over and over again until drifter breaks them out

[hazy prism]

That's true, honestly just need more info and clarification

[pliant panther]

what do we know about the man in the wall whats his end goals why does pursue the operator

is their a man in the ceiling?

[drowsy saddle]

He wants his fingie back

The edge of reality is really sharp, Albrecht got flayed like a fish, and wally lost a digit and is now forced to suffer from cause and effect

[pliant panther]

you mean the one in the ship?

[drowsy saddle]

The one in the railjack is a copy

[pliant panther]

oh

[drowsy saddle]

And the one in the zariman is theorized to also be a copy

We don't know where the originals are

[unique aspen]

Does the Man in the Wall want out of the Wall at all? I kinda had the impression he did, but I'm realizing I'm not sure

[pliant panther]

ok

[drowsy saddle]

He is the wall

[pliant panther]

is their a woman in the ceiling?

[drowsy saddle]

No cause albrecht is gay

[pliant panther]

oh ok

[woven coyote]

would be incredibly awkward to have yonta say the originals are sealed in an unknown location just to have the original some floors beneath her in the zariman

[ocean geyser]

I love how the first thing the Grineer did was try and use the fingie to make Kuva

These guys love that red soup

[drowsy saddle]

Gotta heal the queens

Also kuva liches are like, the last genuine threat the grineer have against tenno

[ocean geyser]

Kuva Trokarian jumpscare

Hate em

[drowsy saddle]

That kuva zaza

[hazy prism]

KUVA KELES

[tall echo]

Misread that as kuva heelies for a second

[hazy prism]

That would be sick too, honestly wish Frost had a skiing/skating mechanic with his 2nd

[tall echo]

Discount lavos 2

Wait vial rush is the subsume

[hazy prism]

Ideally more controllable, and use more momentum

[tall echo]

I don't think the engine can even comprehend the physics for that

Although grendel 3 does function off of momentum and gravity and stuff so maybe it can

[strange plinth]

descendia has that 'frictionless' modifier as well

[tall echo]

Right, I hate descendia too much to remember that

[hollow trench]

Is teshin dead or does eternalism make that a difficult thing to answer

[strange plinth]

not dead, not eternalism

he falls into the void and lands in the same place lotus's hand does

[hollow trench]

Does duviri not have constraints on time and space

I feel like it’s confusing af

Cause he ages in duviri

[lean garden]

why

[lean garden]

well yea, he's been there a good while

brother got yoted into duviri

[hollow trench]

So if teshin is outside of eternalism and isn’t dead that would mean duviri isn’t applicable to eternalism?

Unless I’m mistaken

[lean garden]

what?

[strange plinth]

acrithis notes this. teshin ages, unlike everyone else there
its interesting

[lean garden]

lets run it back

where did you get "teshin is outside of eternalism"

[hollow trench]

Here

Unless that’s incorrect

[rugged parcel]

What is "capturing" exactly

[hollow trench]

It is

[hollow trench]

Pokeball?

[rugged parcel]

Like what are we doing to a person, because it isn't Cephalization

[strange plinth]

just meant that eternalism isn't really relevant to teshin there, its just him being tossed into the void

[rugged parcel]

There's no glass, but it's painful, and we also do it to Teshin but he still maintains a body

[lean garden]

Well lets put it this way:

You ask me, did my mother die of a heart attack.

I say "Not dead, no heart attack"

does that mean that my mother is outside of a heart attack, or that a heart attack is just not relevant?

[hollow trench]

That makes sense my b

[lean garden]

Tada you got it

[hollow trench]

I’ve been playing steel path lately and duviri

Been seeing space uncle a lot more

The acolytes

When did they come about?

Were they just there like the stalker?

[lean garden]

yeesh that's oooold

the acos were part of an old event

[strange plinth]

they showed up during operation shadow debt
in which stalker n his acolytes were hunting alad v because he helped us in TSD, and alad called in his favor for protection

[lean garden]

and then they were added as bosses to SP missions

[hollow trench]

They hate me 🥀

[strange plinth]

the acolytes died during the operation and have received no lore since

[lean garden]

with as much lore connection as steel path: which is to say: none

[hollow trench]

So they were like the stalker tho

At some point they were people

[lean garden]

we... actually dont know

[strange plinth]

maybe
their origin isn't known
i'm personally fond of the idea that they're other low guardians, but it has no proof

[lean garden]

they might have been folks like the stalker, turning themselves into frames like their idol, but we really have no idea

[rugged parcel]

Keep in mind warframe got its lore bibe like, last year, so things can just be made up then lost, subsiquently

Like, for example, what capturing a person entails

[hollow trench]

Because if stalker had ties to jade

Wouldn’t the other acolytes have ties in the lore

But since theirs no update to them
We may never know

I also feel bad for teshin I’m ngl

Bro got out of all of that mess

And he was the only person closest to normal

[lean garden]

Stalker had ties to jade yes, but its liiiike

what if I had a wife, then I lost my wife and believed her dead, and then decades later I accidentally start a cult.

My cultists and my wife are tied to me, but not to each other.

Same vein, all the acos are really involved with is the stalker and then theyre dead, so Jade Shadows doesnt really help them get lore yknow?

[hollow trench]

Yeah I know, I’m just saying it’d be nice to know if the acos had any extensions of their own in the lore not to jade or the stalker specifically unless it’s like how they ended up there to begin with

[lean garden]

it would be nice yes

unfortunately...

[hollow trench]

De pls

[lean garden]

we no no have it

[hollow trench]

I’ll be like kratos

Give us more lore and my life is yours

[peak ether]

Just had a thought, I wonder what war crimes the suspended Uriel committed that even the orokin didn’t bother to take it back

[hollow trench]

Being nice

[peak ether]

You’d assume that the orokin are prideful enough that they would want a highly classified (at the time) war machine back.

And wtf was the Tenno that was piloting it on to warrant having their frame be effectively crucified

[strange plinth]

prolly wasn't piloted

roathe's men becoming the uriels n all

[peak ether]

true it could’ve been one of them

[hollow trench]

My guess would be

And this is going off of the clues throughout the game

Roath either kept someone alive who had no part to play in the war and the orokin simply wanted them gone or stood up for a defenseless group of people over finishing his objectives

In the voice notes, he leaves you when you finish 21 runs of the descendia

He talks about how one of his subordinates transferred him into their body using Cuva as he was dying, and he looked at his lifeless body and recognize then in there what it all meant

Also ballas states about how theorokin find empathy to be so foreign to them. It’s like an alien. In the sacrifice

So maybe he began to understand the thing the orokin feared the most

I could be wrong too but it’s a speculation

[peak ether]

other than that point still stands, this specific Uriel was on demon time to be made an example so it’s more than just killing sentients.

[humble sierra]

And that same voice memo also mentioned a "defective" Grineer who held the line, and Roathe realized that the Orokin were incapable of even understanding selflessness

[sick scarab]

Okay, so there was some discussion yesterday about how Flare's story is with self-identity, and not with plurality.

I've only progressed one KIM convo further, and... Are y'all sure Flare ISN'T about plurality?

Maybe I'm reading this wrong though.

Also to be fair, I'm still sort of new to the concept of plurality... but still.

[midnight ice]

i'm diagnosed with OSDD and the "is this flare/hello, lizzie" convos are 1:1 with what i have with my friends sometimes lol

[sick scarab]

To be clear, I'm an outsider when it comes to plurality - I only know bits and pieces of it from talking to other people in plural-focused communities

So it's entirely possible I'm reading too much into this

But I'm just sitting here like "are we 100% sure this isn't about plurality?" with pretty much every message from Flare and Lizzie

[midnight ice]

might just be my personal bias but i definitely identify with the way it's written as a story about plurality. i can see where people come from regarding self-identity issues but it's one package with being plural

not a, how you say, complete 100% unshakeable fact and i'm not an authority, but i see it

[fast dew]

See, I think its more of a literal thing personally

Lizzie takes over Flare's body multiple times

[drowsy saddle]

Sometimes, its flare in the driver's seat, sometimes lizzie

[fast dew]

And while that is in line with something like DID, it isnt exactly. 1:1

[midnight ice]

like fronting, yes

[sick scarab]

I will also mention, Flare/Lizzie is certainly a unique situation to me
In plural communities, it seems like systems there don't have this sort of struggle between sysmates
But that's also in a community where everyone (or well, the majority) knows they're plural, and have accepted it
Flare certainly doesn't seem used to having to share their mind/body with someone/something else

[dawn shuttle]

I assume it stems from lizzie being (at least, being presented?) as a separate being in that she 'is' the guitar, but then with how the infestation works, the end result is kind of the same? Similar enough to be read as an analogy of it, at least

[dawn shuttle]

(oh, and Flare is a they)

[sick scarab]

Ah heck

[fast dew]

.. im gonna say something controversial, but id be wary of how plurality communities portray people with DID. There absolutely is struggle between identites. Ive lived w a sibling who has it, and it is absolutely something they struggle with

Acceptance only comes after a large amount of therapy

[midnight ice]

especially if you have hostile alters (forgot the actual term)

[fast dew]

And I do mean, at least in my siblings' case, years

[sick scarab]

Yeah, which is why I'm admitting that those communities are made up of systems who generally already accept their plurality

[fast dew]

About 13 years of intensive therapy after their diagnosis got them there, it took a lot

[midnight ice]

in a literal sense outside diagnoses i suppose it's a story of "person who's a singlet their whole lives has a new personality/Thing forced unto them unwillingly, take this how you will"

[sick scarab]

I do hope I don't seem unreasonable or rude here btw

[midnight ice]

you're fine and cool and awesome and sparked a good discussion

[fast dew]

Its not so much the acceptance of plurality that makes the struggle of identity gone, because that usually happens to every other alter, bevause if they're separated enough, they will need individual therapy and support, which is why it took my sibling 13 years, having around 3-4 alters, trauma based therapy takes a long time to work, from past experiences

[sick scarab]

Huh, interesting. Today I learned a little more about plurality.

[fast dew]

Fot flare, its more the worry that someone fronting will do something dangerous, much like what Lizzie does

[dawn shuttle]

I think it's reasonable to expect that a portrayal of plurality would not be 1:1 to the real world when it involves someone stuck in a time loop, morphed by infestation, with a guitar formed in some part from themselves ?

[fast dew]

Its not something talked about often, unfortunately ive seen so many folk w DID refuse to accept treatment, even if its detrimental to them, so i feel as if it won't be talked about as often as you'd hope

[sick scarab]

Persecutor, prosecutor, and perpetrator are the words that come to mind
Although with how varied headmates can be, I think "hostile alters" is probably a good overarching category

[fast dew]

There is a weird aversion to actually getting better and recovering from disorders in online spaces, ive noted

[dawn shuttle]

That said, I'm very much an outsider to this so I understand if people dislike the portrayal and/or assumption that it is meant to be a portrayal of it

[fast dew]

Ill speak from my own experience with cptsd, it doesnt exactly go away, it never really will, but you develop healthy ways to manage your episodes, which is why you seek therapy to aid that development

Lest you get harmful coping mechanisms, that could hurt you or others

[dawn shuttle]

This would have some survivorship bias, no? At least in online spaces related to disorders, you probably get a distorted distribution of people as it relates to how they view their disorder(s)

[sick scarab]

Part of me is wondering if this is like Lena Raine with Celeste
Where the story ended up being about trans struggles, even though that wasn't the original intent

Which is to say, that maybe Flare wasn't meant to be written as plurality, but came out that way anyways

[midnight ice]

it's easily interpreted as it, and i don't see it being as harmful as that movie Split is

[dawn shuttle]

My only issue with flare is that once again a non-binary character gets interpreted as 'noo, it's just a collective they because they're multiple individuals'

[sick scarab]

Oh definitely
DE is not one to write this sort of stuff with a harmful intent
At least not intentionally

[humble sierra]

Except Flare is Nonbinary even without Lizzie

[midnight ice]

hah, yeah. absolutely

[sick scarab]

Yeah
I'm asking about the plurality aspect specifically because Lizzie is involved
Flare being non-binary is separate

[humble sierra]

I get a sort of Eddie/Venom vibe from their dynamic

[dawn shuttle]

Sorry, I might have worded it unclearly. That's exactly what I mean, but it's fuel for people who refuse to acknowledge non-binary people as being a thing

[humble sierra]

Oh absolutely

[sick scarab]

ahhh
I apologize if I came off this way

[humble sierra]

Sorry if it sounded like I accused you of misunderstanding them

[fast dew]

Id assume so, im not saying this is the whole online community when it comes to it, I do exist so there must be others.

After a lot of self analysing and therapy I have decided that being in those communities arent exactly the best for my mental health (due to some shit that sibling did, I do feel generally uncomfortable around systems, which i manage myself), so I am not entirely sure what state it is in currently, but I do think that those people tend to be the loudest, therefore the most noticeable and identifiable for a pattern

[dawn shuttle]

Not at all, don't worry :)

[midnight ice]

We Are Vendor

[dawn shuttle]

I'm just sick of seeing people justify misgendering characters based on stupid misreadings that fit their worldview

[midnight ice]

We Are Parts Farming Pity System...

[fast dew]

I get mildly violent around that, not harmfully but I do feel the need to throw something when people are being dense

"It doesn't exist!! It didn't exist in old cultures!!" Oh buddy.

As a person who's apart of one of the oldest living cultures in the world to date, it absolutely does. Our deity that created the land deadass is bisexual and or agender

Given, they are a snake but

Yk

[sick scarab]

like how autism way back when, was when someone was affected by the fey or something lmao

[dawn shuttle]

The dishonesty in it is so frustrating to me, I refuse to believe people can't see what the writing intends, and so instead of just going 'I understand that this character is meant to be "non-binary", but I don't believe in that stuff' like a proper bigot they justify it by some intentional misreading

[fast dew]

Yes the fae children, those who knew too much and acted peculiar as if they've been replaced by a fae! Curious. Wonder what that sounds like

[fast dew]

-# this exact interaction happened here and it pissed me off so bad when mods didnt do anything about it while there, and I had to bring it up to them because a mod excused it

"This doesnt count as transphobia" refusing to use the correct pronouns absolutely counts as transphobia

[sick scarab]

I'm not a mod but
Did you write a modmail about the incident?

[dawn shuttle]

Of course, that's the point - muddying the waters such that any identity that doesn't conform is put into question as though there's a world where the writers just accidentally wrote it like that

[dawn shuttle]

"No but you don't get it, I as a cis person don't care if someone uses the wrong pronouns for me, so you can't care either!"

[fast dew]

Yeah, i initially pinged mods when it happened, didnt respond, same dude the next day went on an Ai tirade, tried to modmail that, modmail was full so we had to ping mods, felt it was apt to mention about the transphobia earlier, mod asked for proof, did that, and I quote "this does not qualify as transphobia". Idk if they didn't read it properly or didnt check the whole chat but. Yk.
-# this mod has a history of judging shit, at least with me, too early.

Spoilered for lightmode

Dont wanna flashbang yall unintentionally

Anyways, mods dealt with it. No clue how

They waited 5 whole days after I made the modmail about the mod, but yk

[sick scarab]

gotcha
Yeah I was gonna say, modmail about it if you didn't
That gets it in front of more eyes, if nothing else

[fast dew]

Same mod deleted one of the shitposts I made bcs it didnt seem to be warframe related, fair, but if you looked literally for less than a second you'll see a rat with Albrecht's hat on it

Along with Loid's whole legs being in the background

But yes, enough of me griping about idiots

Warframe lore

[sick scarab]

I'm not going to comment any more on the mod topic than I already have

Back to warframe lore

[fast dew]

Yes yes warframe lore

Did yall know uhm.

Idk random loid fact of the day

[sick scarab]

yareli and nokko are sister-brother

[fast dew]

Absolutely

[sick scarab]

yareli will absolutely murder you if you touch nokko
but nokko will also absolutely murder you if you touch nokko

[fast dew]

Nokko is also described to be design wise to be her little brother, mind, yareli before the warframeifcation was a child, so that makes nokko designed to be a child, if that wasnt obvious enough

[dawn shuttle]

Every squad got the:
sister
brother
killer fish!!! killer fish from san diego!!

[sick scarab]

Oh I didn't actually know that

[fast dew]

Mhm. She was probably a teenager, but a child nonetheless

Nokko feels vaguely around 9/10/11 for me

Yareli is 14/15 i feel

[dawn shuttle]

Something something hate the orokin

Not that this would be worse than other stuff they did, to be fair

[fast dew]

Oh and yareli was also based on a magical girl, which historically focus around school age teenagers

[dawn shuttle]

Yeah

[fast dew]

So next time someone is being weird about Yareli, bring up that she was a child, because its funny to see their reactions

[midnight ice]

yareli - ivara prime though..

[dawn shuttle]

I main yareli in an exclusively non-weird way

[midnight ice]

(yareli, nokko, hydroid)

[dawn shuttle]

merulina :(

[midnight ice]

NOO IM SORRY

MERULINA KILLER FISH FROM SAN DIEGO

[fast dew]

The whole orb vallis warframe set is just a big family

Strangely dominated by women

[midnight ice]

hydroid killer squid from cleveland. i guess

[dawn shuttle]

ugh. It's the future liberals want or whatever

[fast dew]

Them damned liberals

Thems was speaking.

Sorry tbats a reference to something

[dawn shuttle]

"i liked warframe until it went woke (fortuna)"

[midnight ice]

WOKE Vallis:

SHE/HERtuna
THEYreli
nokko
GAYrulina

[dawn shuttle]

Holy peak... DE hire this user

[sick scarab]

elaborate?

[midnight ice]

jellyfishes

[drowsy saddle]

Baruuk is the ace uncle who got incredibly stoned on a spiritual trip to Tibet

[opaque zenith]

Q. Does Follie enters the Family as the cat lady neighbor? (Because Vesper Relay)

[fast dew]

Ykwhat she is now

Shes that aunt you visit sometimes, her house smells weird, and she has really bizarre furniture

[humble sierra]

Decided to date Lyon— he has a line mentioning "Lua herself stepping from the Void to greet us". I wonder if there's stuff in the scriptures that somehow predicted the future?

[narrow pendant]

from the moment he was injected until he travelled to our time lyon, rell and the person who became harrow went through all of each others memories so he somewhat saw the future that way ig

rell and harrow appeared as silent spectators in his memories in that period, and he could "remember" theirs

[hollow trench]

Wait gtfo

She was a child?

[narrow pendant]

a young rebellious girl, so likely in her teens

[hollow trench]

Ballas wasn’t killed hard enough

[narrow pendant]

drifter should go back in time and give him his personal infinite death loop

[opaque zenith]

That one goes to the account of the whole empire tbf, not excusing, just setting more targets

[fast dew]

Mhm. Thats what yuvans are! Especially in the later years of the empire!

Yuvans are almost always children, it was a growing trend that it apparently got younger and younger iirc

[narrow pendant]

many saw it as an honor too...

having their soul irreversably completely shattered and erased by it

[hollow trench]

So hold on

[fast dew]

You should be thankful we're kidnapping you and stealing your bodies!

[narrow pendant]

well the orokin were actually morally good once...

[fast dew]

Once

[narrow pendant]

once...

[hollow trench]

Few questions

Did the Warframe serum not kill children?

Like how did they know it would have worked

Unless they didn’t

[stray herald]

I do feel sad for roathe bc he at some point performed continuity on his brother-in-arms

[hollow trench]

Yes

[fast dew]

They're just humans, only smaller. No reason why it wouldn't work

[hollow trench]

Fair

[fast dew]

Certainly worked on Jade and her kid

[narrow pendant]

it killed many, regardless of physicals too as dax soldiers were mostly the subjects. The protoframes kinda tell us that their personality must fit the design a bit

not as in they tell us directly but like metaphorically

[hollow trench]

Yeah

[fast dew]

I mean, counter argument. Roathe's soldiers

[hollow trench]

Well they would fit roathes personality no?

[fast dew]

I think Albrecht choosing those specific frames was a form of mercy, instead of bruteforcing it to be all the same

[hollow trench]

Like if you are willing to work alongside him

[fast dew]

... they were likely grineer

Or dax

[narrow pendant]

but all other people died in the process except for the surviving protos we know now

[hollow trench]

I’m going to replay the new war and kill ballas again

Closest I’m getting

[narrow pendant]

you can argue they are battlehardened from being in the military, but amir wasnt

[hollow trench]

Amir was not

Poor guy, adhd go brrr tho

[fast dew]

Ehh? The line "bodies in the hospitals" or whatever doesn't really mean that he went off and killed folk

High chance they died of the techrot anyways, because didnt the vaccine come after?

[ocean geyser]

I don’t think that’s what they’re saying?-

[narrow pendant]

there were other lines indicating that the hex were the only subjects getting warframe serums and surviving while others didnt survive that process, i believe the comic does

[hollow trench]

Yeah albrecht may be orokin but he’s a much more kinder one

Granted still messed up

[fast dew]

dies of techrot
dies of helminth (which isnt... really something we've seen before is it? Helminth is explicitly a tame strain)

[hollow trench]

I have not read the comic

[violet storm]

Buddy boy is part of the reason I struggle to find the will to reset the hex

[fast dew]

Go read it, it is worth it

[hollow trench]

Poor yarelli

[narrow pendant]

not long either

[hollow trench]

Legit that’s sad

[opaque zenith]

Can't, he's a warframe player

[ocean geyser]

To be fair, if almost everyone was already infested, it’s possible the Techrot wasn’t pleased by the Helmith suddenly showing up and “stealing” people

And then people just died

[violet storm]

Perhaps their bodies simply couldn’t handle the changes? I’m spitballing and it’s probably not the reason why

[ocean geyser]

I mean it’s also not the exact same helminth serum standard warframes were made from so yk

There’s a lot of potential reasons

[violet storm]

True.

[opaque zenith]

Could be dosage testing too, testing 1mm variations would take lots of tries

There's at least one who got to much and turned into a full excalibur (in the quest)

[fast dew]

Sorry but rereading the comic and

Brother what is that stance

Mf is out here standing like sans undertale

[ocean geyser]

Bro all whimsical

[violet storm]

The coat tail is interesting

[fast dew]

Its just a split in the trenchcoat

Tailcoats have the split higher

And are usually not that large

I did forget that Albrecht deadass stabbed Arthur though

[violet storm]

I remember arthur mentioning Albrecht did that.

There’s a lot of random things I remember arthur talking about. Don’t know why they stuck with me

[fast dew]

Albrecht just be doing shit sometimes

[humble sierra]

Stand User ahh stride

[violet storm]

stares at Amir’s lifeless body he massacred my boy

[humble sierra]

https://tenor.com/view/duck-jjba-memes-funny-dio-gif-19288089

[opaque zenith]

ArthurFamily appears ramdonly in my mind from time to time

Don't have the img tho

[violet storm]

The Square Spaghetti incident

Arthur drunk off his ass

[humble sierra]

Goddammit Eleanor indeed

[violet storm]

The coloration looks…interesting on Eleanor. Iykyk

[humble sierra]

Arthur too

[violet storm]

This was before the breakup no?

[humble sierra]

Whoops sorry sir

[humble sierra]

I think they broke up before turning Proto?

[violet storm]

I don’t remember when they mentioned it happening from the Kims, that part slipped my mind.

Most of what I do remember is miscellaneous, goofy stuff.

[opaque zenith]

Much before, in the army still, which goes army->ICR->hollvania

[narrow pendant]

why do sentient mimics on murexes hide as argon, the thing that makes them recource target #1
are they stupid?

[opaque zenith]

Nvm, found it was the ICR time in AoiRank4Convo5

[dry oracle]

https://tenor.com/view/lyon-allard-father-lyon-lyon-lyon-warframe-warframe-gif-17462169518417453446

[modest lion]

is there any other lore for how xaku prime formed outside of the same as xaku but its 3 prime frames fused

[restive river]

No, we have no idea how Xaku Prime was made nor if it was in the same manner as the original.

Considering the lost frames were uh. Lost I doubt they were recreated in the exact same way but rather the Orokin recreating and improving the design once Xaku returned

[modest lion]

Itd be a cool lore snippet to see what the original frames that make Xaku were

lost to time in all but appearance

[restive river]

I think they should stay lost tbh

Xaku isn’t those frames anymore, I mean physically yes they are but they’re something entirely different
Also any distinguishing factors would make them. Not lost

You know their appearance? There’s probably some Orokin record out there about them
Not so lost anymore
Which defeats the point of the untold lost frames from those void expeditions, at least for Xaku

[modest lion]

that is a fair point. with Xaku's 3 giving us powers based on the frames they are the sum of, I was intrigued if there was any further info!

[restive river]

Nah they are lost lost

There is some neat speculative fanart you can find online of the three components made whole from the pieces we do have
Which is neat art but I think it doesn’t really work for the frame’s story

[midnight ice]

would be funny if xaku prime is just three prime frames lost in the same way

[orokin voice] Honey! I Lost Three Frames to A Void Expedition Again!

[restive river]

Oh there were more than three lost lol

I do think they just recreated and improved them, we have the foundry so we can just recreate base Xaku and the Orokin had that tech and more

[fast dew]

What is an "orokin voice" 😭

Albrecht isn't one bcs apparently that comes from the dax

[pale cedar]

Posh voice clearly cuz blue

[lean garden]

Thomas...

You see that hat and that coat and you dont know what stance that is?

[midnight ice]

Jotaro Entrati..

[fast dew]

I DIDNT WANNA SAY IT

[lean garden]

yare yare daze

[fast dew]

I aint a jojos fan 💔

So I sent it to my mate who is

And they don't mention it

[lean garden]

You will be

[fast dew]

No

[lean garden]

https://tenor.com/view/made-in-heaven-gif-2288445034474793012

[fast dew]

No no

Nononononono

[restive river]

Yes

Join us >:)

[fast dew]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-drag-come-here-comehere-gif-21771860

[restive river]

You can’t play warframe without being a jojo fan smh my head

[topaz pawn]

https://tenor.com/view/jotaro-kujo-jojo-bizarre-adventure-no-no-no-no-nope-gif-14295799

it's too late... you're already referencing it

[fast dew]

MAOO

NAOOOOOOO SAVE ME

[restive river]

Everything you do is a jojo reference

There’s no escaping it

[restive river]

Albrecht when uh 1999 idk i didn’t play the hex

[pale cedar]

Albrecht for 1000 loops

[hybrid wolf]

When will have a scitzho equinox

[fast dew]

No? We already have schizophrenia w lyon

[hybrid wolf]

Tru

[strange turtle]

Wisp, Harrow, Uriel Triad vs Nexha, Yareli, Nokko Triad

[hollow trench]

we have gauss and grendel homies, nokko and and yarelli\

who else is a dynamic duo

[silk atlas]

No one else so far

[ocean geyser]

You could argue sevagoth and hydroid but their deluxe skins have beef

[restive river]

Enemies to lovers

[ocean geyser]

😭 ** **

[tall echo]

That's how I'll choose to see it bc both are in my top 5 frames

[north jolt]

Buff muscular metro sexual dudes with broken af but oddly specific powers

[waxen mesa]

so what is synthesis. are we glassing enemies or are we killing them and like, uploading an imprint of them to Simaris

[violet storm]

I mean, it’s very likely it’s a data imprint

[waxen mesa]

Simaris does say something to the effect of "Are you killing them? No you're just giving them an eternal life in Sancturary." which implies we are in fact killing them.

Simaris also implies they are fully sapient though

[silk atlas]

They're copies of the thing you scan

[restive river]

We likely kill the original and make a copy

[unique aspen]

My "I love slaughtering thousands of virtual people in the name of nebulous scientific progress" voicelines raise a lot of questions answered by my voicelines

[restive river]

Wait this is just cephalons again

[unique aspen]

I think he might actively enjoy being ominous at this rate

[violet storm]

Digitization of an organic being

Or inorganic with corpus bots and Murmur

[waxen mesa]

that does beg the question. What's the difference between a sythesized corpus crewmate and a cephalon

[violet storm]

Compare Ordis to a corrupted foe

[restive river]

Maybe how they exist in the weave?
Synthesized beings include robots so it’s not one to one with glassing

[waxen mesa]

I mean we don't exactly get the chance to sit down and have a conversation with them

[restive river]

Also the Murmur

[waxen mesa]

do we synthesize murmur?

[restive river]

It may be the level of autonomy

[waxen mesa]

we can codex scan them but do we ever synthesize them

[restive river]

Simulacrum

[violet storm]

Ordis is still(for the most part) himself. corrupted foes are effectively just drones

[unique aspen]

But, in all seriousness, I'd assume it's mostly accumulation of different statistical and behavioural data to create a very expansive combat simulation, and the claims about them living forever in the Simulacrum are mostly Simaris being romantic about his hobby.

[restive river]

That’s in the weave
Simaris can emulate The Murmur

[pale cedar]

Pretty sure Murmur battle group is a thing in Simulacrum

[restive river]

Probably yeah

Iirc the tech for making cephalons was lost so it def is different to that

[pale cedar]

If he can copy Murmur he should bring tank to Simulacrum

Maybe even Angels