lore-discussion

[fast dew]

Albrecht probably will be there

[proper barn]

yes but no. Pargasa.

cuz Pargasa was gonna void jump after eating the sun.

[fast dew]

Yeah I know what you mean now, god that name sucks

[wise quiver]

Like, honestly, 100%, if we just upgrade our railjack to make small jumps to tau and none of the other factions are able to follow after us or are otherwise "put on pause" while we are in tau would be lame

[fast dew]

If I go another update without Albrecht I genuinely might kill someone

[proper barn]

okay no please.

[wise quiver]

Going to tau needs to be big.

[glacial bear]

I hope Tau gets a whole new system

[wise quiver]

It can't be an isolated event to the tenno unless it's a 'full reset'

Where we have to build up from nothing again.

[glacial bear]

God please no I hate that idea

[wise quiver]

Then it needs to be a quest that involves a lot of factions.

[glacial bear]

I think we go to Tau and get a HUGE quest chain that leads us to a whole neew system of planets and missions

[proper barn]

i wouldn't go

THAT FAR. but it probably will be pretty big.

[wise quiver]

I'm expecting half the size of origin minimum

[glacial bear]

I wouldn't be mad if we get there and they introduce new open worlds that lead to new planets in the system

[wise quiver]

Actually that's a good point.

We have no idea how much of tau was explored.

remember we jump around the origin system via the solar rails. Would Tau have such things? A solar rail network?

[glacial bear]

Maybe yeah

I think that we get the different planets with each new open world

[wise quiver]

I could see us starting with just perita.

And over time DE would have us build solar rails n stuff in the system so we can go to other planets.

And slowly open it up.

[glacial bear]

Yeah

[wise quiver]

I don't expect it to be a bunch of stuff day 1

I see the moon and that one planet from the old peace.

[glacial bear]

my only issue is we have the man in the wall still in the origin system

[wise quiver]

Look, if albrecht is in tau, wally is most likely there.

Unless we get some explanation as to why wally isn't there.

Which I don't...see that happening considering Wally followed Albrecht through time travel

[glacial bear]

Yeah

I like the name btw Wally? lol I hadn't thought of that. I need a refresh on that story oddly enough

[wise quiver]

Really? You haven't heard him called that?

That's the affectionate name the community has given him.

it

[glacial bear]

so are you familiar with the story of the indifference?

[wise quiver]

The seriglass bell and albrechts first encounter?

Like, I'm familiar with most of the lore, but I'd like to kno what you're referring to specifically

[glacial bear]

I guess, I know he makes his original appearance in man in the wall

like what is it and where did it come from

[wise quiver]

Uh, from Rell's story

[glacial bear]

Like his storybook

[wise quiver]

No, Rell just calls him the man in the wall

From what I remember anyway

Considering the perita rebellion is a thing that actually happened and not some weird eternalism event it's become blatantly obvious that we honestly can not take anything stated as fact....

[glacial bear]

I need to find the quest and what order to replay them in

[brittle siren]

Perita is like the period between the first scene in Old Peace to before graduation

[glacial bear]

Those are the missions in the Refractory right? I love those missions they play so smooth

[wise quiver]

Right, more so was pointing out the fact that we had peace, as well as the whole...sentient hive mind and the xenoflora stuff.

We had no idea about any of that before it just dropped onto our laps.

[glacial bear]

The way we access those memories is wild

[brittle siren]

what are you suggesting?

[fast dew]

Yeah, thanks to Margulis and or wally

[fast dew]

Im just curious on why Albrecht had the dark refractory in the first place

[glacial bear]

Maybe it was a prototype time device?

[wise quiver]

"Unreliable Narrator"

[brittle siren]

huh? who is unreliable?

[wise quiver]

I've never seen a game utilize unreliable narrator to the degree that warframe does.

[wise quiver]

everyone

[fast dew]

Doubt it, it does memories, which isnt really related to time travel, from what we've seen

[brittle siren]

please tell me that you actually play the whole game before making that statement

[fast dew]

... okay first off, the dark refractory doesn't show bias unless there's someone else inside.

[lean garden]

I mean, just because it wasnt told to us dont mean that its a case of an unreliable narrator

[brittle siren]

because from I heard, you clearly still missing the point

[glacial bear]

So maybe he's trying to use the refractory to help the tenno discover a way to destory wally

[fast dew]

Thats what I think, maybe looking back at the memories of the void incident?

[lean garden]

its not like we asked "was there a major event in the old war that had a moment of peace with the Sentients?" and were met with "RAAAAAH ONLY WAR RAAAAAH"

[brittle siren]

no refractory only to go deep into someone mind

[fast dew]

They're meaning through memories

[wise quiver]

You would think, that specifically during the New War, that the mention of the old peace would have come up.

[brittle siren]

and the fact that most ppl that known that event is dead

[lean garden]

but why would it

[brittle siren]

why would they?

[glacial bear]

Similar to how Assassins creed worked

[wise quiver]

Uh...the killing of the xenoflora pretty much triggered the return of the war?

[fast dew]

Considering that most people who were there doesnt know of the peace-

[wise quiver]

Erra?

[fast dew]

Erra deadass might not even exist atp

[brittle siren]

the Sentient on Perita is seperated from Hunhow group

[lean garden]

and why would that come up for the new war?

[fast dew]

Also

[lean garden]

and we all know natah didnt exist atp either too

[fast dew]

Alad v mentions us causing the destruction of a race or species or something last time we were close to the sentients

[lean garden]

which is yknow, the end of the war

[wise quiver]

"Just as you burned our world and killed the flora that gave us our thinking minds, we shall in turn burn your worlds." or something along those lines would be, IMO, a mandatory statement to make when you're delivering what is effectively the nail in the coffin of your longest hated enemy?

[brittle siren]

also Natah is like design by Ballas right?

[lean garden]

so why would the omission of that mean "unreliable narrator"

because its nowhere close

[wise quiver]

I lack the words to express it okay?

[fast dew]

Erra or Natah didn't exist when that happened and likely never knew of xenoflora

[lean garden]

plus like, the destruction of the solar system is ballas's idea

[wise quiver]

It's just weird and confusing that this is all being done this way.

You'd think out of everyone that we have talked to up to this point someone would have mentioned the old peace.

[fast dew]

I think, personally, its pretty simple

[lean garden]

Im not sure whats particularly confusing that what was essentially a blip in the timeline of the old war wasnt mentioned in a whole new war

[fast dew]

... who? Most people were made after the old peace

Hunhow wouldnt know, Erra and Natah didn't exist

[wise quiver]

Parvos Granum for one? Also, you'd think that news/information about the old peace in some fragment would have made it back to the people and there would be talk of it along side 'the old war'

[fast dew]

Ballas wouldn't mention it

[lean garden]

I mean, Hunhow should have existed, since he was the "farmer"

[wise quiver]

It also brings into question just how much does Lotus even know of the old war?

[lean garden]

but like none of them would mean that it would be brought up as an aside

[fast dew]

Ik, thats why I said he wouldn't know, not that he wouldn't exist

[fast dew]

Because its overall, not that important?

[lean garden]

and none of that means the omission of the old peace makes the information unreliable

[lean garden]

wait why wouldnt he know?

https://tenor.com/view/riddler-paul-dano-new-rockstars-does-he-know-gif-26833694

oh why does this gif have a second frame

[wise quiver]

Yes...it is? It's the source of their ability to think at least it's implied as such from the old peace.

[fast dew]

Didn't she have amnesia over it to keep the whole natah shit away?

[fast dew]

... no. Thats only for fragments

[wise quiver]

I've yet to see anything from DE that explains that.

[fast dew]

Hunhow, Natah and Erra all were sentient without the xenoflora

[fast dew]

He wasn't at tau was he? Bcs how would he get back to the origin system...?

[wise quiver]

As per Adis explanation, it's needed for all sentients, there was no other explanation as to hunhow, natah, etc, have their sentience.

[fast dew]

... hunhow is sentient without xenoflora

[wise quiver]

I've had this discussion before and it's just a fluster cluck of confusion for me.

[dry oracle]

Hunhow doesn't need drugs to stay normal

[fast dew]

Hunhow, Erra and Natah are all sentient, without xenoflora

[wise quiver]

Cool. How. Why?

[fast dew]

Because they're made in a different way to fragments

[lean garden]

I dont think he moved to origin at that point yet, yknow on account of having to be there to make natah

[wise quiver]

Cool. Why does the fragments having self awareness be important.

[fast dew]

Natah and Erra were born via hunhow's womb, fragments are just splinters off his body

[wise quiver]

It didn't need to exist if they can just make more like Hunhow, Natah, Erra, etc.

[fast dew]

Because the void sterilised hunhow

[wise quiver]

That was after he came bak though

[fast dew]

Blasted his uterus with the beam of hate

[wise quiver]

On the way there they were fertile, when the yarrived and colonized they were fertile.

[lean garden]

think of it as your species has two different methods of reproduction, and the second one was randomly discovered to be plant-induced

and then some goober comes and wipes out your second method

and effectively "kills" all those produced by the second method

[wise quiver]

Cool, I absolutely hate how they don't explain that in game if that's true.

[fast dew]

I dont think its something that should be spoon-fed tbh

Its a pretty easy conclusion to come to if youve been paying attention

[wise quiver]

They need to explain "Yes, we can make sentients who do not need the xenoflora, but it takes a long time and a lot of resources, so the xenoflora lets us reproduce much faster."

[fast dew]

... they do

Much earlier

[wise quiver]

Freaking where are the words?

[fast dew]

With natah and Erra's creation, along with Hunhow and Pragsah or whatever the spelling is

[wise quiver]

Are you talking about "in another quest"?

Some one off dialogue somewhere?

Cause the xenoflora has the very much feel of "we need a mcguffin so let's make something up."

As in "it was made without consideration of previous lore."

I genuinely do not see the point in the xenoflora(item that makes the fragments sentient/individuals) existing if the sentients were already capable of being individuals without them explaining the difference between the Xenoflora/fragment sentients and the other sentients.

[proper barn]

They went the long way.

Like seemingly hundreds

Of years. Maybe longer.

[wise quiver]

We genuinely have no idea how long it was.

[proper barn]

It took so long the Zariman 10-0 could be planned build and launched.

[wise quiver]

Planned, built, launched, vanished for who knows how long and showed up...before the sentients attacked.

[proper barn]

Not before.

[dry oracle]

Few hundreds

[proper barn]

They where already battling sentients

And already built the warframes and had them fail.

[wise quiver]

I keep seeing that but like

[proper barn]

What do you mean?

[wise quiver]

I keep seeing people say that but i'm not seeing supporting statements from ingame for that.

[proper barn]

We literally know why the warframes where built right?

[wise quiver]

We do

[proper barn]

we agree on that.

Okay Kullevro

[wise quiver]

We also know that the zariman kids were kept in stasis and that one guy...uh...teh rhino prime codex entry.

[proper barn]

Is a gen 1 warframe.

And he SEES the Zariman return.

[wise quiver]

Accord to who?

[proper barn]

As a warframe HE SEES THIS.

[wise quiver]

Who

[proper barn]

ACCORDING TO HIMSELF.

[dry oracle]

Wait you're a warframe?

[wise quiver]

Is this logs found in the game or something?

[proper barn]

What?

[fast dew]

"Do you remember, Natah? That first day. How our father, lifted you screaming from the manifold. How we sang."

With the manifold seemingly being a nursery

"I am Pazuul of Narmer. I abjure the Void that scalded my Father's womb."

Womb. Womb mentioned

" Tenno.

The Shadow has fled. His lair is silent and empty. He will not return.

Understand: She haunts this place. Her light has marred the earth. She whispers in the sleeping machines. Through the disintegration of her flesh, she lives on.

In honor of my barren, Void-scarred womb I entrust Jade to you.

He would not have wished this. But she would.

I remain: the great and terrible Hunhow."

[proper barn]

Its part of his crimes

[dry oracle]

Made up

[proper barn]

Literally

Untrue I'll get it

Right now.

[wise quiver]

Warframes, as a rule, don't talk.

[fast dew]

They scream

They howl

[wise quiver]

In generalyt hey themselves don't communicate with others really.

[fast dew]

Thats. Not true

[wise quiver]

The one exception we 'know' of us Dante.

[fast dew]

We see it with Jade lol

Jade, Umbra, Dante

[proper barn]

His 4TH CRIME

[dry oracle]

Who

[proper barn]

@wise quiver @dry oracle

[wise quiver]

Okay, and...i've lost the plot to this, what was this about? I knew this already.

[proper barn]

So for his 4th crime he sees the tenno arrive.

[dry oracle]

Who

[proper barn]

And then his 5th crime is after the tenno use the warframes.

[fast dew]

So... womb. Womb mentioned. What is a womb used for? (Other than suffering)

[dry oracle]

Kullervo?

[wise quiver]

Oh. The Warden. As in the guy who is modeled after Ballas, a notorious liar? Or a guy who is a concept breathed life by the Drifter? I'm sure thats reliable information.

[proper barn]

Yes.

[proper barn]

IT'S NOT BALLAS

IT'S KULLERVO

[dry oracle]

Though u were talking about rhino

[wise quiver]

It's words FROM THE WARDEN YOU NONCE

[fast dew]

That.
No.

The warden was from kullevro

[proper barn]

Literally made by Kullevro EMOTIONS

WHO DO YOU THINK MADE THE WARDEN

[wise quiver]

DRIFTER

[fast dew]

HE DIDNT

[wise quiver]

PROOF WHERE

[proper barn]

NO

[fast dew]

THAT WAS KULLEVRO

[proper barn]

He didn't EXIST BEFORE NOW.

[fast dew]

HE WASNT THERE BEFORE KULLEVRO'S UPDATE

[wise quiver]

And?

[proper barn]

Also drifter wouldn't KNOW WHO BALLAS WAS.

[wind ruin]

Yes, that is a... figment... of Ballas as Kullervo's Warden.

[proper barn]

They also

[fast dew]

But its not ballas.

[wise quiver]

Either

[proper barn]

Wouldn't know What kullervos crimes where.

[lean garden]

"Did you hear? Kullervo's Hold can be sighted just off the mainland! The place is steeped in anger, sorrow, and fear, so you only need to wait for one of our King's darker moods. My archives note that the island was first formed when a ball of fire descended from the sky! It bored a hole straight through the ground, and from the tainted debris, a dungeon spontaneously arose, complete with Warden to berate its sole prisoner, the warframe Kullervo, for his many crimes."

-Acrithis

[wind ruin]

And Drifter absolutely would, Ballas was one of the Seven Executors. everyone in the Orokin Empire knew who they were and what they looked like.

[fast dew]

We're not even sure if its even supposed to be ballas, the executor Kullevro tried to kill

[proper barn]

It is.

[wind ruin]

He has Ballas' voice. He looks like Ballas.

[proper barn]

It looks and sounds like him.

Also kullervo wanted Ballas to love him.

Cuz kullervo is gay and lonely.

But Ballas shunned him.

[fast dew]

Real

[proper barn]

And then only later during the night of Naga drums tried to kill him.

[wise quiver]

God I hate the soft wording of this, no mention of time. I hate that.

[proper barn]

What I just said was true.

[wise quiver]

But fine. It's a recent addition.

[fast dew]

Yeah kinda how the paradox works

Is true. Can I speak normally for once

[proper barn]

Also the ball of fire is kullervo himself.

Cuz he was thrown into the void.

By Ballas.

[lean garden]

thats why you pair it with what kullervos manifestation of guilt says about what kullervo has done, which includes that the sentients started duking it out before the zariman returned

[wise quiver]

Look, my guy.

Unless it's a quote from the game, or something seen in the game, it's just not true to me.

[fast dew]

Thats

A dumb way to see things

[wind ruin]

Throwing Kullervo into the Void was Ballas' 'proof of concept' for ||throwing the Operator into the Void and imprisoning them there.|| That's how he knew it was possible. He'd already done it to Kullervo.

[proper barn]

I AM USING QOUTES.

Nothing I said wasn't qoutes.

[fast dew]

Do you really need to be spoon-fed a story 😭

[proper barn]

This is a qoute.

[brittle siren]

it's literally ingame dialogue ffs

[wise quiver]

Where is the quote for this.

[fast dew]

Half of the wonders of warframe comes from interpretation

[wise quiver]

Which I am fine with, people need to stop saying their opinions without clarifying it's an opinion.

[brittle siren]

nothing we saying is opinion

you, on other hand is

[proper barn]

Okay so. He tried to kill Ballas. Then failed. How else could he have ended up in duviri other than being thrown in here?

[wise quiver]

I mean, moments ago I was being yelled at that The Warden isn't inspired/based on Ballas.

[proper barn]

That's not

What I said.

I said he was made by Kullervo.

He is inspired by Ballas.

[fast dew]

I mean

The interpretation that the Dax dagath was, was probably being assaulted by the orokin she was forced to serve is pretty egregious and obvious, but it requires you to put two seperate things together

[proper barn]

But cuz of Kullevros extreme feelings towards hom.

[wind ruin]

Ambient dialog from NPCs talks about how Kullervo arrived 'in a ball of fire from above.' The Lotus' hand literally arrives in a ball of fire from above. The Lotus' hand was thrown there by Ballas, along with the Lotus herself. Kullervo has a 'warden' who looks and sounds and acts like Ballas. It's pretty easy to draw the obvious inference that Ballas was the one who tossed Kullervo into the void.

[proper barn]

Yeah.

His last crime is him trying to kill Ballas.

[wise quiver]

Your exact words here are "it's not ballas" which is fine, I understand The Warden is not ballas. No where here do you mention "The Warden who is saying Kullervo's crimes, is a figment/eternalism/created by Kullervo" you say specifically and exactly "It's Kullervo"

[proper barn]

The other crimes it talks about him getting away.

[proper barn]

Yes he is MADE by KULLEVRO.

So things the warden knows.

WOULD BE WHAT KULLEVRO KNOWS.

[wise quiver]

Would be what Kullervo remembers and assuming that other void shenanigans didn't infect/mutate those ideas.

[fast dew]

Because conceptual embodiment must draw from something

[proper barn]

You where saying "the guy modeled on the lair ballas". And that the Drifter

Created him.

[fast dew]

No thats not how the void works

[proper barn]

I'm saying. It's kullervos own like "feelings about ballas."

[wise quiver]

We know the indifference can tamper with stuff.

[fast dew]

It would require wally purposefully altering the memories after a deal

[proper barn]

So these are "things he did."

[fast dew]

After a deal, sure

[proper barn]

Also the indifference isn't there

Until later. We literally keep the indifference out.

[wise quiver]

stares at the weaver's stuff.

[fast dew]

Isleweaver has Neci

[proper barn]

And then we kick him out.

[fast dew]

And its a fake duviri too lol

[proper barn]

The point was that this. Means that kullervo a gen 1 frame. Sees the tenno appear and then sees them be putt into warframes.

And like tells them to rebel.

Do you disagree with this.

Is the whole thing.

[wise quiver]

I hate the inconsistency.

[fast dew]

... where

[wise quiver]

Warframes aren't supposed to be able to talk.

[fast dew]

Rules can be broken

[wise quiver]

A car shouldn't be able to fly

It was designed to not be able to talk

explain to me why it can do something it wasn't designed to do

[fast dew]

Okay but if its designed to be able to, it can.

[proper barn]

these are his memories.

[wise quiver]

Don't just make stuff happen without explaining

[proper barn]

it's from him making the warden.

[wise quiver]

I KNOW

[proper barn]

what do we mean?

[fast dew]

You'd hate most stories then

Shit just happens man

[proper barn]

that's not fair.

[wise quiver]

The warden aka Kullervo's Memories are saying "Kullervo spoke the the tenno and convinced them to rebel."

[fast dew]

Oh

The tenno can feel their emotions

[proper barn]

OH. i think it's more he used like writing

[fast dew]

Much like jade can talk to her own operator iirc

[proper barn]

and stuff to talk to them. also they can just go into the frames mind.

like we do with Umbra.

also stalker talks.

[wise quiver]

I donno if umbra's thing is something we can do with all things.

[proper barn]

wait. WE HAVE FRAMES THAT TALK.

[fast dew]

Thats

[wise quiver]

Stalker we know is something different as he is referred to as a "low Guardian"

[fast dew]

Thats exactly what we do

[proper barn]

Stalker talks.

[fast dew]

Thats how we calm the infestation

[proper barn]

he is a frame. he just his rank is low guardian.

[wise quiver]

Eh...

[proper barn]

don't eh me.

did you play jade shadows?

also Jade is also a low guardian.

[wise quiver]

Oh my god, yes I did, jesus christ, I've played everything.

[proper barn]

or was is she not a frame?

[fast dew]

Low guardian was just a military rank lol

[proper barn]

yeah.

[wise quiver]

Proof where.

[proper barn]

let me get it.

[wise quiver]

Not you.

I need proof that "Low Guardian" was "just a military rank"

[fast dew]

Its the same claim holy christ

[proper barn]

WHAT DO YOU MEAN i can right now get proof low guardian was a rank.

[fast dew]

Im currently busy, so id appreciate if Vinny could go get it

[wise quiver]

screams

Inconsistencies.

[fast dew]

Kinda hard to get a quote when getting blood work done

[wise quiver]

Frames can't speak, except we have several frames who can speak or otherwise communicate.

Unreliable narrators

[fast dew]

Rules are made to be broken lol

[proper barn]

"Before he became the Stalker, the Low Guardian Sorren was awarded this mark of valor and loyalty by his Orokin masters. Now, it is yours to claim in acknowledgement of the Orokin's downfall."

[wise quiver]

I'm fine with the rule being broken AS LONG AS IT IS EXPLAINED

[lean garden]

Memory Feather 06
WRECKAGE. PLUTO TERMINUS.

When the drums struck, I saw him. Changed, just as I was changed. But the medal was his. There is no other like it.

My Sorren. And he did not know me.

I took him. I flew. Through the blood and storm and insanity, I flew.

For context to establish that stalker is a warframe

[fast dew]

Exceptions to the rules arent uncommon

[proper barn]

also

[fast dew]

Well that is a you issue

[proper barn]

jade was also a low guardian

[wise quiver]

Yes, it is.

[proper barn]

i think it's stated.

[wise quiver]

and I will continue to scream and rant at this confusing mess until it makes sense.

[fast dew]

Which

[wise quiver]

Jade is a whole other can of worms that I'm choosing to ignore for now because it's too much.

[fast dew]

Wont result in anything

[wise quiver]

It will make me feel better

[lean garden]

Perhaps if you took a real deep breath it might actually make sense

[fast dew]

But its clearly not

[wise quiver]

The key problem is the xenoflora.

[fast dew]

Listen man, I know what its like to be fixated on something so trivial, its better to just let it go

[wise quiver]

It shouldn't exist.

[fast dew]

It does

So get used to it

[wise quiver]

I know it does exist.

My guy.

It's a bad story thing, I am voicing criticism of what I view is a bad story choice.

[fast dew]

I don't like the Triad existing either, but I accept that they have a purpose in lore, despite it being annoying

[lean garden]

the only real "problem" is that it looks to be a mcguffin, but like nothing stops it from existing

warframe is chock full of mcguffins

[fast dew]

And we move on. Because sometimes

Sometimes, a mcguffin isnt a bad thing

Stereotypes and cliches are common even in good stories

[wise quiver]

You're free to leave, I'm going to rant and rave that xenoflora and the "Fragments" of sentients needing it to be self aware is a horrible god aweful story choice for DE to make without providing some context as to why the sentients didn't just make more things like Natah and Erra.

[proper barn]

"And so I go to war, and none suspect. I am as much the warrior as I ever was." So we don't know if jade was a low guardina but she was a soilder it seems.

[fast dew]

Uhm, no :)

I aint gonna leave bcs you won't calm the hell down

And I think, personally, that its a good choice

[lean garden]

I mean, they did make more things like natah and erra, thats why they exist. Its just that there was a whole other sentient production method that is triggered because a whole planet is covered by a mcguffin mcmuffin

[fast dew]

I think it could set up an interesting caste dynamic - mimicking the orokin

[wise quiver]

It's a great choice if they explained why natah and erra don't need it.

[fast dew]

Because they're not made the same???

They're essentially as if the orokin made them

[lean garden]

Natah and Erra, like mommy and daddy before them appear to be the "hivemind" types that adis alludes to during the quest

[brittle siren]

Both of them still in Hunhow hive mind until Natah was modified and Erra is also modified by Ballas after his death by the Lotus

[lean garden]

Since Natah is meant to be the mimic queen, and Erra was designed to rule

[wise quiver]

Right, but why wasn't Tau full of beings like Natah/Erra and why did the sentients rely so heavily on the xenoflora for what is effectively their 'general population'

That's all I need to know

[brittle siren]

because Natah and Erra are meant to be leader lmao

[fast dew]

Because they're fragments, not whole sentients

[brittle siren]

if everyone is Natah or Erra, no one is special anymore

[wise quiver]

Why didn't they make more whole sentients?

That's the key to this entire thing. Why. I need to know why. Without the why it's horrible story.

[fast dew]

Because at some point, hunhow's womb got blasted

[wise quiver]

No

Ignore that. That is not relevant.

[fast dew]

And you can't just. Pop out 2000 babies at once

That is relevant man

[wise quiver]

Okay, here we go, proper discussion, yes! Valid!

[fast dew]

Holy shit you are tiresome.

You're going in circles.

[wise quiver]

But we are lacking more information, we don't know how many sentients like hunhow existed, let alone how much time has passed.

We are talking about the building of a complete species at this point.

[fast dew]

We know that there wasn't much, outside maybe the 2.

There was a small amount

Fragments are easier to make

[wise quiver]

Which is speculation but fair.

[fast dew]

....no

Its not

And speculation isnt bad

Hell, half the shit regarding wally is jist speculation on the characters behalf

[wise quiver]

If it is not speculation, then tell me where in the game it says otherwise.

[fast dew]

How about this

You go find any mention of a sentient outside hunhow having a womb, hm?

Go find where there's possibly any form of other sentient reproduction

[wise quiver]

I can't find any mention of any other big sentients beyond Praghasa, Hunhow, Natah, Errah, and uh...the Archons.

[fast dew]

Yeah.

[wise quiver]

That however does not mean those are the only sentients, which is speculation on my part

[fast dew]

So why do you think that is?

[wise quiver]

Because the others are currently dead, or forgotten.

[fast dew]

Okay so you're entire argument is invalid based on your own terms

[wise quiver]

Ah, wait, the Eidolon. I just remembered them.

[fast dew]

Eidolons are dead.

[wise quiver]

Yes, but before they were a living thing.

They had thoughts, a mind.

[fast dew]

Yeah, and they didn't reproduce.

[wise quiver]

If I remember correctly.

[fast dew]

Is it a mind or is it just base hivemind behaviour

[wise quiver]

They couldn't reproduce here in the origin system, correct. That doesn't mean they couldn't have done so in Tau.

[fast dew]

Thats an assumption

So, invalid. Right?

[limpid ember]

This new dark neptune lore is crazy

[wise quiver]

Yes.

[lean garden]

well, I can confirm that over the course of the old war there were at least 5 hivemind type sentients

[wise quiver]

Less invalid more "it's not proven but has evidence to support its potential existence."

[lean garden]

natah erra hunhow praghasa and the eidolon

[wise quiver]

I can't prove it, you can't disprove it.

[fast dew]

And that makes you right, how?

[wise quiver]

I never said I was right, I said I wanted answers.

[lean garden]

eidolon based on the records of it before it took the bomb to the face

[fast dew]

Outside the fact we know that after a void trip, sentients become sterile (usually dead)

[lean garden]

Oh yea and then the 4 archons before they were archons

so 9 hivemind types

[wise quiver]

For all we know Hunhow and Praghasa were just the two chosen or who otherwise volunteered, out of...let's say 10 "big hive minds" and we have another 8 or so sentients still in tau like Hunhow and Praghasa who have been building an army or otherwise hijacked by Albrecht who we know is in Tau doing something...

[jolly lotus]

anyone in here wanna here my theory abt dark neptune?

[fast dew]

We dont know hes in tau

[wise quiver]

Uh...yes we do? The end of the old peace says so?

[lean garden]

a dark who?

[fast dew]

Why does everyone assume hes in tau??

[limpid ember]

Sure go ahead I’ve heard a lot about dark Neptune recently

[jolly lotus]

i think nef anyo opened the gate to dark neptune after he got killed by the stalker

[fast dew]

... where.

[limpid ember]

bro

[wise quiver]

The end of the old peace says he is in tau what are you talking about?

[jolly lotus]

sort of like a last ditch attempt at reviving himself

[lean garden]

I mean, Tau is in sight for a reason

[fast dew]

Where does it directly say he is in tau.

[limpid ember]

Wait that’s genius..

[fast dew]

Do you mean "Tau is in sight"?

[jolly lotus]

because during the events of dark neptune we only see nef anyo AFTER we rescue the stalker from dark vor

[lean garden]

but also like thats the whole point why kiddo went into the animus

[limpid ember]

Dark Neptune is the best expansion ever, too bad nobody knows about it fr

[jolly lotus]

its a better kept secret than janus captain vor

[jolly lotus]

do you have the dark neptune opening cutscene link or...?

[lean garden]

the hell is dark Neptune

[limpid ember]

Yessss give me a sec

[dawn shuttle]

Neptune after dark 🤤

[fast dew]

I don't think he's in there. That means he found a way there. A way he aint telling us, which i dont think is something he'd do. Nor does the dark refractory remotely help us find him 😭

[limpid ember]

Dark neptune is the new big thing Ng

Those who know about dark Neptune polarity attunement

[jolly lotus]

well after neptune got merged with dark neptune when anyo ripped it from the void SPOILERS

[lean garden]

idk man tell lotus, she said the refractory is the only way to find albrecht

[limpid ember]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3ZGsx4ukMw&t=4s

[lean garden]

and then after we're done tau was in sight

[jolly lotus]

better cutscene than the opening cutscene of warframe?

[fast dew]

Which doesnt make any sense now that we've seen the old peace. We dont even hear Albrecht's name outside then

[lean garden]

I mean, it kinda does make some sense since we know that he was there at some point

[jolly lotus]

the lore is so mix mashed rn they still have yet to intergrate dark neptune into the main story

[brittle siren]

I remember you sent this once in this channel

[jolly lotus]

idk what theyre gonna do with dark neptune whether their gonna retcon it or

[fast dew]

We was there, but we never see him or learn of anything that could help 😭

[limpid ember]

Me? I didn’t make ts

[brittle siren]

no I said "you SENT"

[wise quiver]

At the end of 1999 he asks the drifter to join him to leave for tau.

[dawn shuttle]

You made this

[jolly lotus]

no dark neptune og finder got it

[fast dew]

Which makes it seem more like Lotus just said that to get Loid to go along

[limpid ember]

This is not my channel

[strange turtle]

Dark Neptune?

[dawn shuttle]

You made this

[jolly lotus]

reset the index in fortunas sky.

[fast dew]

Can I get a direct quote of the full thing btw bcs I dont remember hearing Albrecht invite drifter to come along

[dawn shuttle]

He says like 'Come, now. Tau is in sight'

[jolly lotus]

he says tau is closer than ever or something like that

[fast dew]

Just that "murmur expelled, tau is in sight"

[dawn shuttle]

I'm pretty sure it includes a beckoning

[wise quiver]

Trying, the wiki is a pain...

[dawn shuttle]

But i have been wrong before (once)

[fast dew]

"He's ash in seconds. No need for misery. Come. Now."

[dawn shuttle]

Oh i was right again

I just can't stop winning

[fast dew]

Hh, I aint sure how much of a beckoning that is to tau over him just telling you to get up and move

[thick cedar]

Lore wise, does Pluto exist?
Also is Neptune now closer to the Sun than Uranus? (Considering it has been said IRL that those 2 planets change their order after a lot of years.)

[fast dew]

Nor is it direct conformation that he is at Tau

[lean garden]

yes

[dawn shuttle]

Idk given what he says right after it kinds sounds like we should go with him to tau

[strange turtle]

It’s not said that he went straight to Tau but there’s no reason to believe that he didn’t

[lean garden]

Pluto is the outer terminus

[thick cedar]

Ahh

And what about the other question?

[lean garden]

which might be where the rail to tau is? Need to double check

[lean garden]

I dont think DE ever bothered to get celestial bodies scientifically accurate

[fast dew]

I don't get why he wouldnt just drag us along, or inform us on how to go to tau.

[wise quiver]

it is at the very least implying he went to tau, enough that we are going there in the game. He might not be there, he might be there, either way it's all but confirmed that he at the very least went to tau and did something otherwise we wouldn't have done the whole "dark refactory" dive in the first place.

[strange turtle]

There’s a portal right in front of them, “Tau is in sight”

The KIMs say we need to go to Tau to find Albrecht

Old Peace says we need memories of Tau to find him

Either DE forgot how to write and set scenes or he’s at Tau

[dawn shuttle]

I think it's possible that he doesn't go to tau immediately if he deems the drifter following to be necessary? Like bro this drifter guy just wants to date the hex so now i have to wait for that to be done

[fast dew]

Yeah hed also be waiting on us

[thick cedar]

Doesn't he have infinite time?

[fast dew]

I still think the lotus pulling Albrecht's name out for that was to convince loid tbh

[lean garden]

depends, "infinite time" is a nothing burger

[dawn shuttle]

But i mean he can probably go to tau easier than ballas could so like maybe he just sits oher there now

[lean garden]

especially when wherever he goes that thing will follow

[wise quiver]

I feel like the reason he went to tau is because the Sentients can't be hijacked by the indifference, because the void is poison to them.

[thick cedar]

I thought he got murmur off his tail in 1999?

[wise quiver]

So the indifference can't really affect them to do things without killing them.

[fast dew]

The indifference isnt the void-

[strange turtle]

He has waited a long time for this, and took no convincing whatsoever to let us stay. He can wait, if he even really thought we’d come with him and abandon the Hex to begin with

[lean garden]

Oh you would not like to hear my crackpot theory then

[fast dew]

Bau.

[lean garden]

but wally would be crapping out void energies

space magic words and all

[lean garden]

hey man, when Tau 2026 comes along and the sentients get commandeered, know that I was but a prophet of things to come

[fast dew]

I think he fully expected us staying tbh, bcs thats how the triad would also work, yk?

[fast dew]

True, much like me and the loid chat

[dawn shuttle]

Did he even expect the triad to show up like that?

[fast dew]

He probably anticipated it

[stray herald]

I'm hoping we get to see another of the seven over there

[wise quiver]

I am, admittedly, tired of only seeing Ballas.

[dawn shuttle]

My burning question is still like, do the quills know? how much of all this can they see

[fast dew]

Theres no purpose of the whole "can the orokin be forgiven" if he didnt think that the triad would eventually get out to talk to us

[wise quiver]

God, I forgot about the Quills...

[lean garden]

they probably know

[fast dew]

I feel if Albrecht didn't want something to happen, it would be nearly impossible to let it happen

[wise quiver]

So many threads warframe has

[dawn shuttle]

I love the quills they're so funny

[stray herald]

is infested alad v cured?

[lean garden]

yes

like, years ago

[stray herald]

I wasn't there

[lean garden]

I mean, I dont expect you to be there, Im just saying we cured his stupid ahh years ago

[stray herald]

was big Al's science lab always stationed on deimos?

or did he have other labs prior to deimos

[lean garden]

all we really know is deimos

and technically the subsequent one in duviri

[dawn shuttle]

But the infinite lab in* the void probably wasnt the first one lol

[stray herald]

so I was wondering: tau has Al's lab or smth

[lean garden]

it might have another, it might not, we need to see modern tau first

[stray herald]

does al want wally dead or becomes no longer a threat

[tall echo]

Yes

[stray herald]

damn it I hate that answer

[old wharf]

How do I send someone to the Cephalon program?

Any guides?

[hazy prism]

Sorry, could you elaborate on that?

[tall echo]

Excuse you?

[stray herald]

yea, what?

[rancid tinsel]

i think theyre asking how to bring someone into the simulacrum

[old wharf]

No.

[rancid tinsel]

oh ok

[old wharf]

burger

[dawn shuttle]

Nihil's first day at the job be like

[feral cape]

If the unum wants them to it can show them

Or maybe it cant

I might only be able to show the future and since there in the past maybe it cant actually show them

[dawn shuttle]

But lately both the operator's and the drifter's futures have been very.. past

I still want to believe the quills wrote the POM-2 logs in the sanctum

Some of the language does feel a little similar in how like, almost machine-y it is? Idk

[limpid ember]

wait so guys how does the stalker fit in to the dark neptune lore?

[lean garden]

It goes in the square hole

[jolly lotus]

ball knowledge

[jolly lotus]

do you know of dark neptune

[fading mist]

wait, if Lotus wants to find another Adis variant, then how about the aerolysts

[brittle siren]

it has to be the one that can heal a literal robot

and can revive human

I think Adis have that power due to Xenoflower

[narrow pendant]

i like to believe were carrying some of his light within us, like in the elevator scene where time stopped and loid appeared, even adis reassured us like? thats not from the memory thats adis somehow talking

might play a role in further diversifying some operator/drifter traits idk
drifter having the whole timeloop ability and operator having some yet not fully understood power from carrying on his light

[main arch]

You know what? Even if this is a hill I die on alone, then so be it.

Warframe lore is better written than 40k lore is.

[drowsy saddle]

Well warframe lore doesn't have 40 years worth of writer clog to deal with

[main arch]

Fair. Or a disconnected writers team.

[drowsy saddle]

Yeah, and even warframe has to shuffle some things to fit new stuff

[fast dew]

Yeah yall only got.. what, 14 years?

[dark compass]

Warhammer has fallen, billions must bloodbowl

[drowsy saddle]

Based?

[violet storm]

Remind me, when is the anniversary of warframe again?

[hollow flare]

is nihil one of the seven? I did the fight and nora was saying things like executions require unanimous votes which is what the seven do. also he's the guy who does the glassing and cephalons right?

[fast dew]

Unfortunately not.

They fired his ass live on stream

[hollow flare]

oh so he used to be?

[drowsy saddle]

Its a retcon

[fast dew]

He was called an executor in an Amir kimchat that got scrubbed from existence

[drowsy saddle]

Or a fix of a long existing typo?

[fast dew]

Got shot dead. Live. And it hurt.

NIHIL

[drowsy saddle]

Makes his hissy fit in Gara's prime trailer funnier

Not even an executor, just one of the people in the crowd

[hollow flare]

so he's just another orokin like albrecht?

[fast dew]

He had such a genuinely great design

[fast dew]

A high ranking orokin, but yeah

[drowsy saddle]

Albrecht isn't exactly "just" another orokin

[fast dew]

Albrecht is..

[hollow flare]

well but they have no pull on the empire

[fast dew]

Hm.

Albrecht absolutely does somewhat

[violet storm]

Nihil holds something

[fast dew]

The entrati family as a whole used to be giga important

[drowsy saddle]

Well, they had the duty of managing the heart

[fast dew]

Nihil had his cephalon program

The entrati had the heart

[violet storm]

Son mentions he was to be espoused before the fall, but he says she is now as dead as the empire they lived under

[drowsy saddle]

And had a small squad of warframes in service

At least 3 that make up Xaku

[violet storm]

Also they were responsible for the Necramechs

[drowsy saddle]

Before counting Albrecht's concrete monkey Qorvex and the book nerd Dante

[fast dew]

Probably Oraxia and Qorvex

[violet storm]

Aka the Tanks of the empire

[fast dew]

Mhm

They are scary tbh

Mafia style family yk

[drowsy saddle]

Grandma absolutely ran a cartel

[violet storm]

Yeah, imagine seeing something that tall with gold inlays and a freakin skull

[hollow flare]

is grandma the wife of albrecht or is mother's marriage matrilinial so grandma is father's mom and they joined the entrati family

[drowsy saddle]

Mom in law

[fast dew]

Grandma is father's mother

[hollow flare]

ah

[drowsy saddle]

She's not blood related to the entrati

[fast dew]

Albrecht had a wife he really didnt care for, ||she's dead||

Which is. A whole can of beans.

[torn plover]

Albrecht continues to not beat the allegations
Which ones?
Yes.

[drowsy saddle]

At this point Loid is more of a mother figure for Mother than Albrecht's wife

[fast dew]

Hes screwing his butler now

[violet storm]

Mother’s, well, Mother-in-law

[fast dew]

I still think he always was

[drowsy saddle]

The tism one is currently the biggest

[fast dew]

Given the situation with Gerivaine

God hes so damn autistic

[drowsy saddle]

Albrecht has so far proven to have issues with women and pets

[violet storm]

One can throw dudes around like a child does their toys and the other is just a walking artillery emplacement

[hollow flare]

so from what we know so far 4 of 7 haven't done shit? like tuvul is the guy zariman guy, nitokh restarted the war and I guess if she has that much power she is some kinda high general position and ballas is the warframe, tau and sentient guy

[fast dew]

Got high functioning autism out here

[torn plover]

We know what some have done and as per Roathe, the others have done warcrimes we're not privy to yet

Mostly bc of Ballas

[fast dew]

Avantus was like. Racist. We only dont know about Tormis and Scarne and why they're so bad

Karrish got murdered by grendel iirc

[violet storm]

Tuvul got got by voruna

[drowsy saddle]

Tuvul got foxy jumpscared by voruna

[fast dew]

Avantus got her spine sawed in half

[violet storm]

And we all saw what happened to Ballas

[hollow flare]

oh he's also the yuvan guy right?

[fast dew]

Mhm. Well. All of them are, but yeah

[drowsy saddle]

Tuvul was merced while attempting a yuvan continuity ritual on a tenno(?)

[hollow flare]

I assume most orokin r racist. kinda like celestial dragons from one piece

to some extent at least

[fast dew]

I prefer the old design aspects of the orokin over the new ones tbh

[violet storm]

Tuvul was the guy who attempted one last desperate continuity only for Voruna to turn him to ribbons

[proper barn]

What does this mean?

[drowsy saddle]

If yareli wasn't such a sk8ter gril and girlboss, we could had have femBallas and thus alos toxic Yuri

[proper barn]

All orokin probably used Yuvan at some point.

[fast dew]

The new ones just look like regular people, which is like. Nah man I wanna know they're orokin outside the hand

[hollow flare]

the yuvan r the "young bodies" for the dying orokin to continuity into

the grineer queen calls u one

[fast dew]

They're meaning the story Tuvul has yk?

[proper barn]

I think he would have just Made himself into Ballas again.

It sounds like him.

[violet storm]

The worm calls us a Dreamer

[proper barn]

the grinner Queens are orokin

[hollow flare]

I mean the dead one

[proper barn]

They say yuvan.

[proper barn]

also just a reminder orokin isn't a race it's a class of people. Also anyone could use continuity if they wanted to.

[hollow flare]

no no like he's, was, some big shot in the yuvan stuff

[proper barn]

Well not really anymore. I assume less kuva to go aroujd.

[fast dew]

Yeah, the story of when he died during the ceremony

[hollow flare]

I don't remember too well

[proper barn]

No? He wasn't. Voruna was. Cuz she was basically the guardian for a place where if they did the ceremony right it was always successful.

[hollow flare]

this

[proper barn]

ah.

[violet storm]

Voruna was pretty efficient, then again her pack was still alive

[proper barn]

The thing after the no I was right though.

[proper barn]

Well they are alive now.

Do we wanna argue what counts as Alive?

[violet storm]

No

[proper barn]

Also kuva is such a mysterious substance.

[violet storm]

I’m good

[proper barn]

I wonder if you could make a werid chimera person with kuva.

[violet storm]

Red and blue.

[hollow flare]

is the orokin emperor(s) just afk all the time?

[proper barn]

Like give yourself a literally stand.

[pale cedar]

I want me some bluva

[proper barn]

Blue VA is just temporary kuva.

Which still terrible.

[violet storm]

Well, the Naberue night Mobile thing gives us some interesting lore. Poor ostrons…

[proper barn]

Well to be fair they did that to them before the kuva.

The kuva didn't warp them like that the Orokin did.

[violet storm]

I know

[proper barn]

I'm saying like Voruna like "gives" her dying/"dead" pack kuva and then drinks the rest of it herself.

And it makes all her dogs like souls and skulls go to her.

Like could i somehow like if someone I know died like not continuity into them but both drink kuva and thus Have their like spirit near me.

Like I described a stand.

[strange turtle]

There’s the Seven Executors, who Execute the Emperor’s will (actually just rule the Empire while they nap) who vote on things, including executions. And then they have executioners, like Nihil and at one point Jade, who actually carry the punishment out. Also whatever tf an Excruciator is

Nihil was in charge and the creator of the Cephalon Program, Glassing people and messing with their minds to make Cephalons as an extreme punishment

[spice moth]

Are on-lyne members just infested or was a human got infected humans?

[pale cedar]

On-Lyne are safe
Clones are infested

[spice moth]

Oh

[spice moth]

Wait, they're clones?

[pale cedar]

Yeah

[dark compass]

It's a government project gone wrong

[pale cedar]

The On-Lyne you hear at the end of Hex Quest are the actual band

[restive river]

Was the government involved beyond Scaldra?

[ocean geyser]

Yeah
They’re the ones that started screwing with the Techrot to begin with
Alongside In-universe DE

[fast dew]

Depends on how much of the government was scaldra-

[ocean geyser]

which im pretty sure is the whole government

[old wharf]

How do I send someone to the Jade Light?

[restive river]

Play Jade

[tall echo]

Actually 0%

Scaldra was a sorta mercenary military

[restive river]

I checked and it does say the government and HitMaker were involved
I wanna say there’s a KIM message about Scaldra being part of it but idr

[keen cipher]

I’d like to see a live action warframe movie that would be sick

[ocean geyser]

Honestly a movie made by whoever made the opening Cinematic would honestly be better

Live action movies are getting old

[restive river]

I just hope they consult the writers on everything to avoid weird inaccuracies

[tacit carbon]

I would LOVE a short warframe story animation done in the same way the 1999 animated short was done. even just a short self contained lil something akin to Cyberpunk Edgerunners (but like maybe 4 episodes? animation is expensive)

[restive river]

Nightwave stories 👀

[tacit carbon]

yesssss pleaaaase

I was on hiatus when saturn six and a bunch of others were live. I'd love to be able to access the "experience" from an alternate perspective since it's not re-playable

[restive river]

You can relive most of them iirc , glassmaker being the exception

[dark compass]

You seen the Styanax one?

[pale cedar]

At least the glassmaker fight still exists

[tacit carbon]

Don't think I have. it's on my to do list to trawl youtube and see if someone's recorded/shared going through all the bits and pieces and cutscenes etc...but it's not very high on my list to be fair

[dark compass]

That's not what I'm talking about

[tacit carbon]

still though would be hooting and hollering if they announced an animated short was coming

[dark compass]

https://youtu.be/bSVwtO5i2UM

They made his leverian into a 5min animated short

[tacit carbon]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I did watch it when I came back from hiatus :D

[old wharf]

How do I turn someone into a Warframe?

[dark compass]

Inject them with a serum

The normal one

They'll be done relatively quickly

[old wharf]

How do I recreate the Orokin system?

[restive river]

Helminth strain

[restive river]

You don’t

Or wait
Wdym orokin system

Like the Origin System during the Orokin Era

[signal finch]

Howdy yall! So with the newest protoframes being from the age of kings, not including our lovely orokin friend, It got my thinking about what other protoframes we could get from that era. After taking a swift look at the roster I landed on my favorite frame Mirage, and instant went to jester and so I delve into my history knowledge and recalled a rather famous jester by the name of Jane Foole.

Her outfit that she wore during her time as the royal fool was said to be a flamboyant amazonian warrior outfit, course it also just so happens that mirage does look like she is wearing some armor of some kind in her design that being the shoulde pads and the cuffs or what not on her wrists

If there was a place to put her I feel like this would be a nice spot though im biased lol

[old wharf]

How do I bring Ballas back to life?

[signal finch]

For a momwnt I was worried I was interjecting into someones question than I noticed it was just Toofers

[restive river]

You don’t

[restive river]

The Triad are from 1899

[signal finch]

Wasnt it like xx99?

[restive river]

They say xx99 but it’s 1899

From context clues we know it’s 1899

Heck old promo art literally said 1899

[signal finch]

Ah okay well then so long mirage protoframe

sobs in corner

[restive river]

Not necessarily!

[signal finch]

https://tenor.com/view/warframe-what-wat-ivara-what-did-you-say-gif-17536323

[restive river]

Albrecht had access to a time machine, the amount of protos he made are as many as the devs want

He may still have access to it, idr if we know when he nabbed Roathe

Point is the potential is there if the devs want it

[signal finch]

I know that, I think they are making a proto for every frame so I know she is comming one day that being said I was waving goodbye to my design that I made in a fit of adhd XD

[fast dew]

He would've nabbed roathe before the final destruction of the time machine (he wouldn't have been able to get back)

[fast dew]

Alternatively, we could have a circus themed set of protos, it could be fun

Mirage would fit

[restive river]

Yeah I thought so, just wasn’t sure as we don’t even know where bro is now

[restive river]

Höllvania carnival

[signal finch]

Yeah but there isnt any that would really fit the vibe besides mirage, the two holy duo make since but there isnt really anything that matches with mirage in that way

[fast dew]

Clown!

Clowns are cool!

Modern day equivalent of a jester

[signal finch]

They are, I used to perform as one lol

[fast dew]

You know, somehow that's not the first time ive spoken to a clown, ex or current, about warframe

[signal finch]

What I mean is that there isnt any other frames that would match the circus theme

[fast dew]

Oh, atlas as a strongman

Limbo as a ringmaster, Khora or Voruna as animal tamers

[restive river]

I could see Grendel and Gauss

[fast dew]

Maybe equinox or xaku as conjoined twins

[signal finch]

Damn thoes actual sound like they would work XD

[fast dew]

Ive thought about this before

[pale cedar]

If you want to find a clown just look at any loretuber

[restive river]

Not so sure Xaku fits there

[fast dew]

Triplets in the case of Xaku

[fast dew]

Gotta fix it to triplets 😭

[restive river]

Even then uh
No I don’t think so

Xaku wasn’t designed the way they are, they’re something broken that’s come together
I don’t think that fits triplets

[signal finch]

I feel like Xaku would be a hard one to make a proto for

That one feels like they would be a system more than a single person

[fast dew]

Lowkey i dont trust DE to be able to write DID or similar disorders faithfully

[restive river]

I will forever point at the fact Xaku has a parallel to the Lotus in terms of their mind.

[fast dew]

Like I'll be deadass

It would be cool but I wouldn't trust them

[restive river]

I mean
Lotus

[signal finch]

I have DID and I dont see a reason not to

[pale cedar]

Just give an Xaku MPD

[fast dew]

Its a notoriously hard thing to write

[restive river]

I think they’d do their best to do it right and would listen to feedback if they don’t

[signal finch]

This

[restive river]

You can be afraid they might not but I’d rather have hope they can do it right

[pale cedar]

Or DE could just do a Lizzie thing on a whole other level

[signal finch]

Right but doing that would just overshadow our duo

[tacit carbon]

I'm probably in the minority but maybe not all frames need a proto...though I guess, inevitably with the passage of time, there's a high likelihood they all will eventually

[signal finch]

DE is allot better at that sort of thing I dont see them rehashing a concept

[restive river]

Agreed!

[signal finch]

It seems DE is going down the Protoframe route, each newframe is getting a proto and with each new proto we get at least one older frame with a newface

[restive river]

I do think a Xaku protoframe could tackle some interesting things, their connection to the void, being a possible parallel to the Lotus in terms of what’s happening with their mind and I do want to see how DE would approach Vast Untime on a Protoframe

[restive river]

Not each new frame
2 of the 4 frames last year didn’t have it

Oraxia and Nokko are just chillin, protoframeless

I think with the amount of time that goes into the protoframes they do want to do it sparingly enough and only when it makes sense

[dark compass]

No I completely agree. Everyone keeps talking about protos.

[signal finch]

Thats fair but thoes are also not taking place in the future or past like the other frames

[dark compass]

Protos have lost their luster with the triad imo

[restive river]

True, like I said they only do it when it makes sense
Which the Triad are even kinda pushing it

[dark compass]

There has to be something interesting for one to exist, but the trio was just

Gooner bait, gooner bait, a character

[restive river]

Whatever they do next def has to be bigger than the Triad are

[restive river]

Hard disagree

[dark compass]

I am not saying that their characters are less

[tacit carbon]

Think I'm more or less on board with this as my general sentiment. if they continue being a thing, it needs to be done in a sensible and measured way. I love the ones we have already, and don't mind more coming down the line. but I'm not sure every frame needs to have one for the game's narrative to feel impactful and weighted. but that's me personally and I acknowledge there are some frames I'm not too vested in that others very much are and visa versa

[dark compass]

This isn't about the characters

[restive river]

I mean to an extent you are, or that’s how it’s coming across

[dark compass]

This is about their designs as protos

[dark compass]

Yeah I know I phrased myself rather badly, that's why I'm clarifying now

[dark compass]

Nun wisp, really?

[restive river]

I think the idea of protos work really well for frames that lack much else in terms of story and ofc only when it makes sense to do them either thematically or locationally for an update (Triad fit thematically for example)

[strange turtle]

They don’t really write that part of her though

[tacit carbon]

Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely a gooner brained proto grubber lol but I'm just not convinced every single frame ever needs one for narrative purposes

[strange turtle]

At least, not so far

[dark compass]

Like they are written well as characters, I have absolutely no complaints towards their writing

[dark compass]

But what they represent as protos and skins and whatever is uhm

A bit much

[restive river]

Fair but the connection is still there

I mean Marie, beyond being Wisp isn’t much to me
She’s def more than that but I can def see people just blindly trying to romance her cause Wisp

[strange turtle]

With a Butt Window too

[restive river]

I don’t really get Lyon’s fashion

[dark compass]

You should ask Liger

[signal finch]

I think that there isnt much reason to complain, the characters arent empty shells and they each have their own story, and to add onto that out character talks about our past the world around us and gives us a perspective that we as the player dont have which helps to breathe life into not just our "Infested Puppet" but old mechanics old storylines we havent interated with in years

[dark compass]

I think its it's supposed to be inspired by the trope of a mad half naked flagellant

[restive river]

Garuda is perfect for a proto
But we may get something else

[dark compass]

But he's also harrow so

[restive river]

Ah

[tacit carbon]

I mean, sol and lua have kinda been flirted about in the lore for a while, they're just finally putting some meat on those old tired bones. I think a nun and a priest are sensible enough

[restive river]

The issue is Wisp here, not that she’s a num

[dark compass]

That's quite... A lot of meat on those bones

[ocean geyser]

What if someone protoframe’d Zuud

[fast dew]

Im just reluctant to let DE do more severe mental health disorders bcs as a person who had very similar issues to lyon, it feels.. lacklustre, along with Amir and his portrayal of ADHD (very stereotypical once again) and if they're failing to portray that in a better way, something that is more well known and understood, unlike DID, i don't think we should hold their breath.
-# I genuinely hate Amir's writing when it comes to his adhd. Lyon also having an episode and literally noone noticing and stopping him from typing is also like. ????

[restive river]

To many people her being wisp is enough

[ocean geyser]

Actually
What WOULD happen if you turned a solaris into a warframe??

[dark compass]

Head

Imagine opening the grates and it's just excalibur's head

[ocean geyser]

HEHEHE

[restive river]

Bad situation to bad situation

[ocean geyser]

Fair yeah

[signal finch]

Amir doesnt just have adhd he is autistic his adhd isnt the only reason for his behavior

[dark compass]

Though if you think about it, infestation would definitely consume the tech

[pale cedar]

It’d just be Grendel

[tacit carbon]

I think I'm too tired to follow why wisp is the issue, wisp has always had the sol-beam power so I think I'm just not parsing

[dark compass]

Maybe the result isn't so different

[fast dew]

... he has adhd, i thought that was well known? If he's autistic that's somehow even worse

[signal finch]

I didnt say he didnt have adhd?...

[fast dew]

Just. Words

[ocean geyser]

Ah
“Just have”

[restive river]

I agree Wisp herself fits
But Wisp is largely seen as a more. Goonery frame
That’s the issue
And her being a nun while her being that

[ocean geyser]

Words indeed

[pale cedar]

Nothing says he has autism tbh

[signal finch]

And I quote "He Doesn't Just have adhd"

This implies he has more than one thing

[restive river]

I don’t have an opinion on the nun situation but her existing cause people find her attractive feels like a lacking point when
That’s why the protoframes kinda exist?

[fast dew]

Regardless, both are pretty egregious stereotypes. "Fast adhd man" and "childish interests and autism"

Genuinely their peak was Rell

[pale cedar]

Childish interests can exist in anyone

[ocean geyser]

They locked in on Rell fr

[dark compass]

"autism is when tabletop games"

[fast dew]

Dont get me started on the caffeinated drink to a person w adhd trope

God that chat just pisses me off

[tacit carbon]

Yeah I mean....I get that to a degree. but also "delightful eye candy sells" is a tactic as old as bartering probably. I get why it would annoy a subset of players and encourage a different subset of players

[strange turtle]

There’s a difference between outright “gooner bait” and “attractive character that people’ll simp over”

[fast dew]

Course, its just a huge stereotype for people with autism. I get it constantly.

[dark compass]

My point is really that with 1999 and Roundtable they were there for a story that made sense and them being protos was a rather large part of it. They are much more characters than they are skins even outside of kim chats.

Triad feels slapped on more as skins than as characters. They still get the writing and everything, but they definitely feel like skins first.

[fast dew]

When I mention I like bugs, they ask me as if I like looking at them

No man I like putting them in lil blocks of preservatives and keeping them in the wall

[signal finch]

At the risk of being beheaded, I I know people who are exactly like him in the way they act, they think its pretty accurate

[ocean geyser]

I agree with you there

Admittedly Roathe seems like the only one that…
Feels like a character

[restive river]

And I don’t think Marie fits just “gooner bait”, like just cause she’s Wisp doesn’t make that the case to me

[fast dew]

As a person with those disorders, its just another stereotype, regardless of how true it is.

[dark compass]

Like with 1999 batches you can tell it's characters first and skins second. I dont feel that way with the triad at all

[strange turtle]

Something can be gooner bait without solely being gooner bait

[pale cedar]

I don’t think we can truly say he has anything other than ADHD till we get another named condition stated

[restive river]

that’s
Why
I said she doesn’t fit just that :p

[signal finch]

Thats very much fair

[restive river]

I’m well aware of people being fanatics over Wisp and it is a factor
But Marie isn’t just that

[dark compass]

Like it's no longer a story thing. It's a fashion trend that happened to have story attached

[fast dew]

Imagine, if you will, someone doing a stereotype of someone w DID. Constantly switching within miniutes and stuff. Even if its accurate its still annoying to see it constantly shown as that, and no actual depth to it.

[signal finch]

You are well within your right to not like it

[fast dew]

Its done for the sake of it being done, not for someone to be able to relate

[restive river]

It was always a fashion thing too, that’s how it was advertised-

Having two skins in a mission

[ocean geyser]

Yeah but i think they mean they’re handling it differently now

Although tbh this could just be because the Devil’s Triad feels a little
Rushed

It should have had its own quest

[restive river]

It def was rushed somewhat

[ocean geyser]

Not stapled onto the end of the Old Peace

[dark compass]

Why? Because they are skins first-

That just proves my point kinda

[restive river]

It feels forcefully tacked onto the update cause it wouldn’t make sense to have a new hub and was boring to reuse characters we have already, ig

[tacit carbon]

Ahh so your problem is the lack of connective tissue, as I call it. I would agree that this update has a severe lack of connectivity to the rest of the game environment. I think a large part of this is due to the fact they've expanded the Warframe dev team and there are always issues with communication and connective development when this happens (in any organization, but especially game studios). It can be very tricky to allow teams both the time/space to independently work on their aspect of a project and keep them tightly abreast of teams working adjacent to them for overal cohesion. Triad compared to 1999 really lacks cohesion between the various elements and these cracks show through in the narrative/disjointed feel. Hopefully with a bit of time and a little smoothing over the plaster seams with elbow grease it'll become less disjointed feeling and future updates may have better whole-project cohesion

[strange turtle]

Yeah tbh Triad feels like more of an Echoes thing anyway

[serene frigate]

Whats the story behind clem

[dark compass]

If they give echoes to the triad that would solve all issues I have

[jolly root]

Yes

[restive river]

Meme from early on
Datareaper made a comic
Blew up
Clem was added and is now canon

[dark compass]

I really hope it would be the case

[pale cedar]

It was said to be echoes stuff tbh referred by DE as side story

[restive river]

The issue is how they implemented them to be ingrained into the update

They also likely had the descendia a lot more finished and wanted to get that in there too so the update was more than 3 missions

[dark compass]

I think I have trouble expressing what exactly is the problem I have with them

Damn language barriers

[ocean geyser]

I think you’re making sense imo

[tacit carbon]

It feels like each pieces of the update was worked in a separate room from the others, and then slap dashed together with gum, no?

[strange turtle]

Like everything about it is just an add-on to the Old Peace/Refractory stuff

A new way to use the Refractory, a new character connected to the Old Peace, a new character connected to Void stuff with a way to access the Tauron strikes outside of Refractory

[dark compass]

I just think they focused on old peace and Triad was added as a slapdash way to include more proto skins

[ocean geyser]

While the fashion idea was always prevalent
It seems like it was “oooh protoframes” and they only came up with the story afterwards

Whereas 1999 was still “ooh protoframes” but they actually put most of their attention into the story

[ocean geyser]

Yes that’s what we’re all thinking

[tacit carbon]

a lack of connective tissue between the parts, and the overall whole of Warframe (a better intro situ other than just 'ope here's some guys that have shown up randomly' for one. that is 100% lack of overall whole-project level thinking)

[dark compass]

They're fashion first, characters second

[fast dew]

I still lowkey dislike the triad but it is good writing

I still will hate Marie tho

[dark compass]

They're good characters but they're still fashion first

[fast dew]

I do not like Marie

[strange turtle]

I mean the opening of warframe is fine I think

[fast dew]

Wonderful writing, shes a bad person

[strange turtle]

Main issue is how out of the way the early content that explains things is

[fast dew]

Pissed me off enough in that argument to make me not like her

Which is wild considering I still like Lettie. Who is constantly abrasive

[signal finch]

You do not need to bring my DID into this in order for me to relate I have adhd myself so I do see the stariotypes

However as to not avoid what you said ill adress it.

DID has had representation for years for being a driving force in a story for crimes and other negative representation, if a show did what you stated it would be better than that at least, however yes it would be wrong to do it that way but I dont think they way they portray our speedy friend is portraying adhd negatively

[strange turtle]

Ah, nvm, misread

[fast dew]

I brought it up so you could relate better.

ADHD also has a reputation of it being "fast, speedy fast" again and again, neglecting to actually learn that form of ADHD is more commonly found in children. its a distinctive difference. My issue is that they're portraying an adult with the childhood representation of ADHD (mind you, they dont even really touch on executive dysfunction). Childhood adhd is usually found in people under 15, and much like autism, has a whole different assessment because of the differences.

Thats where the stereotype falls.

[jolly root]

Lettie at least listens if you dont choose the right ones with marie its hard

[tacit carbon]

A lot of internal effort is required to get new recruits up to speed, especially for ambitious projects like Perita Rebellion. I think that pulled a lot of their development budget (because of new-hires, teams require time to acclimatize, get in the zone, etc. when expansion happens). I think the descendia is great for what it is, and was developed pretty well, but the connectivity to the narrative team was not as strong as it needed to be between the separate pieces of the update. hopefully DE will allocate a bit more resource to polishing up the narrative aspect to make it feel less disjointed and smooth some of these seams.

[fast dew]

Marie throwing the Family and Loid under the bus really really annoyed me

And folk will go "oh but it was in an argument" yeah okay and

[jolly root]

Yes and that one pissed me off

[fast dew]

She still said it, and it still hurt

You dont just get to excuse someone stabbing you because they're upset

[tacit carbon]

unfortuantely having known some people who have clung to relationships in a similarly hyper positive/sycophantic way, they are difficult to converse with...frustrating but at least if her convos are played right, there's a realistic enough set of outcomes

[pale cedar]

I was upset at the time you disrespected my father pls forgive me

[fast dew]

Its not even that

Its the fact that when she was upset, she decided that it was the family's fault, and insulted them

She called them Vipers

Its. God

Never have I wanted to punch someone more

Actually. No thats not true

[jolly root]

I was mpre pissed with the tagfer convo

[fast dew]

Ive wanted to punch Voh

[pale cedar]

Understandable

[fast dew]

So damn hard

[tacit carbon]

oh, hm...not sure I got that line, maybe I did and just smooth-brained over reading it...I'll have to check later, I'm curious now

[jolly root]

Im sorry i forgot that guy

[fast dew]

Something something no wonder Albrecht doesn't want to return here to this nest of vipers or something

Like

[pale cedar]

For the best

[fast dew]

Marie if you said that to mother, you would be dead

Like even R5 mother

[ocean geyser]

Boutta give Marie the seriglass experience

[lean garden]

vipers isnt in english thats for sure

[fast dew]

Oh word?

[lean garden]

some of yall are quick to anger for sure

[fast dew]

Ik vipers were mentioned, maybe it was snakes?

[jolly root]

Yes

[lean garden]

I mean, you can obviously tell the words mean vipers

its just french

[fast dew]

Would you like it if I told you that the reason your (insert family member) left was because of you

[lean garden]

Hon Hon Hon

[tacit carbon]

Oh right, the French. she probably did say it then and I just smooth-brain glossed over it if it was French

[fast dew]

I for one would particularly hate it

[jolly root]

So its snakes just fremch

[tacit carbon]

I'll check later though haha

[lean garden]

well I wouldnt want to punch them nor give them the "seriglass treatment"

[jolly root]

And then says shes a better daughter then entratis blood

[fast dew]

Have you had a family member leave (not die, leave purposefully)

Like genuinely, because it won't feel the same

[fast dew]

Mhm. Only daughter capable of forgiving him.

What bullshit.

[tacit carbon]

Maybe I don't pay attention just to annoy him 😇

[jolly root]

That was not great

[fast dew]

Like I have a personal reason to hate someone for saying what she did

[ocean geyser]

I said that because there’s NO WAY the Entrati would react calmly if she said that to them

They would genuinely beat her ass

[pale cedar]

This is how you get Roathe to go all Uriel on you

[jolly root]

Mabye son would be laughing

[lean garden]

Well no, but I've had my fair share of familial troubles, and I dont appreciate the notion that my stance will somehow change if I've had someone leave specifically in that manner

[fast dew]

Considering how under r4 mother acts, she wouldnt have been calm

[lean garden]

Because its myopic

[jolly root]

Then help beat