lore-discussion

[strange plinth]

iirc Once Awake got some new dialogue when Koumei released, so that line might not be super old

[fast dew]

I started playing wf around that update

What a fun update.

[frail harness]

According to random reddit commenter ™ it was added right before 1999

[waxen mesa]

yeah they are pretty same-y after a while. especially the round table which is more or less on a track.

[frail harness]

Kinda sucks that all our protoframe friends are gonna die in a horrible nuclear war lol

Unless we figure out how to bring them to the future permanently

[fast dew]

Ive succeeded with the triad tho

[strange plinth]

tbh i wonder if the one murmur hand that attacked us in the refractory has anything to do with it
one of lotus's wires did attach to it

[fast dew]

So eat shit the people who failed Marie bcs they didnt understand what to do with her

[frail harness]

Afaik ive succeeded with the triad so far

[winged flume]

Would Voruna Prime not have her wolf heads on her body if you take what happens in the Laverian to account?

[silk atlas]

Probably

[hollow trench]

If she is capable of holding Wally at bay what level of damage does she sustain from the void

Is it like being close to a fire? We know obviously reproduction goes out the window but is there anything else that’s lost from enough void exposure

[fast dew]

It seems the infestation remembers the shit that happens in the og strains i think?

As long as it's a og strain modified to be a prime strain?

[winged flume]

[frail harness]

The separate strains seem to have extra communication between eachother anyway so its possible they trade insider secrets lol

[strange plinth]

the Voruna in the leverian is a unique one, yeah
and she only becomes that one soon after the naga drums, so there'd be no time to prime her from that variant

[fast dew]

Ohh true

Xata....

https://tenor.com/view/feel-that-that's-true-feel-that-thats-xata-xata-warframe-meme-gif-15531284589461707381

[winged flume]

But she's going to be a Prime version at some point.

[frail harness]

Some primes that dont work i just hope DE get really interesting with it

[strange plinth]

mhm. which makes her prime interesting
what will they do to explain her

[fast dew]

Temple priming themselves again please DE

[frail harness]

I hope jade prime is based on Stalker's memories of jade since a prime doesnt work super well. She could be in a kind of orokin wedding dress type look

[fast dew]

They weren't orokin, they weren't even close

[frail harness]

I dont care itd look nice

[fast dew]

Unless you mean the era style of dressing?

[frail harness]

Also they were orokin?

[fast dew]

No lmao

[winged flume]

I still have the idea tha Nidus and Nidus Prime are the first Warframes, then Excalibur Prime, then Uriel Prime, and Uriel, then ExcaliburUmbra

[frail harness]

I dont mean blue skin orokin i mean like the empire that every human lived in

[fast dew]

Ah.

[frail harness]

The orokin society

[fast dew]

Protip, specify that next time

[silk atlas]

That's not what people mean when talking about "The Orokin", so better to clarify

[frail harness]

How?? Its the same word lol

[silk atlas]

They're part of the Orokin Empire

[frail harness]

If I mean the blue people ill specify executors or just outright say the blue orokin

[silk atlas]

Versus "This dude is Orokin"

[fast dew]

Theres "the orokin" and theres "the orokin empire"

[fast dew]

Okay but executors aren't the only orokin who are blue?

[silk atlas]

Not all Orokin were executors, remember the Entrati family and Roathe

[strange plinth]

i think kullervo prime and jade prime can have similar origins
started prime and were degraded, though through different means
kullervo stripped himself of his gold in his guilt, jade lost hers through focusing on the child
the only issue would be that we have the flashback of regular jade grabbing stalker during the naga drums so. dunno

[frail harness]

I didnt even say the people were orokin I said Orokin clothes, which are the same aesthetic regardless of if the wearer has blue skin

[fast dew]

Orokin as the caste are just blue

[hollow trench]

What’s considered first? I guess like Arthur and the hex would be “first”but you have the whole issue of entrati traveling back in time

[silk atlas]

Jade Prime is gonna look so pretty

[fast dew]

She is i cant wait to buy her

Ima just buy the whole package

[lean garden]

I maintain the stance that prime degradation isnt real

[silk atlas]

He's just not. We know "Excalibur was the first", but other than that a timeline on how most frames came out just isn't given, besides Umbra being later into the war.

[fast dew]

$200 Bucks down the drain but worth it

[frail harness]

Jade prime should work like mega kangaskhan in pokemon where her baby is just born and sits on her and helps her in combat lol

[fast dew]

Jade my love. She's so pretty

[strange plinth]

i'm saying it could be under these two circumstances
but not outside of them, no

[fast dew]

I love that she's themed on a Seraph and they kept the fire aspect with her

[lean garden]

and Im saying that it aint gon be the case even for these two

[fast dew]

I count 6 wings too, which is accurate to most depictions of a Seraph

[strange plinth]

all we can do is wait to find out, i suppose

[lean garden]

Optimum Pride cant strip himself back into orion pax raaaaaah

[frail harness]

I dont think prime degradation is something that happens to every prime but I think its absolutely something that can happen to them and more often than not does happen

[fast dew]

Have we ever seen it?

[silk atlas]

No

[frail harness]

Sevagoth

[silk atlas]

First DE would have to acknwo- what

What are you talking about

[fast dew]

Sevagoth isnt a unique frame?

[lean garden]

personally I don't think like say an iphone 16 Pro can "degrade" into an iphone 16

[frail harness]

I was told ™ that the sevagoth piloting the Tempestarii is just the prime but heavily degraded over time

[lean garden]

whoever said that was with albrecht and loid when they were smoking

[fast dew]

Ive never heard that before 😭

[silk atlas]

Never listen to them ever again

[winged flume]

I'm sorry I'm like everywhere in this whole saga, but have we determined what the ghosts on Lua are yet?

[strange plinth]

sevagoth prime's shadow does mention the tempestarii

[fast dew]

Me, twas i, I was the couch loid was laying on

[lean garden]

its because the person who designed the prime irl took inspiration from the skeletal look of sevagoth

[fast dew]

I assume it was a couch

[strange plinth]

at least i assume that's the shadow desc

[fast dew]

Maybe it was a bed? Would Albrecht get high in a bed?

He looks like he'd get high while driving the cars he [probably] stole

[frail harness]

Yeah no I just checked the wiki it straight up says the sevagoth from the quest is the Sevagoth's corpse and the prime is him from the tempest

I feel like sevagoth being a degraded prime is a non-confirmed but fair conclusion to come to

[fast dew]

Wiki ain't reliable

[strange plinth]

wiki is unreliable for lore
hence why i'm just taking the codex descriptions

[silk atlas]

Where in the hell does it say that because if it's not from a transcript that's just made up

[lean garden]

personally, unfair conclusion

because we see the shadow in the quest

[silk atlas]

Not to mention the Prime description isn't even talking about Sevagoth Prme anyway

Not even that, you play as the Shadow lol

[fast dew]

We are missing the important lore chat

Did Albrecht steal the cars you can find in the labs

[strange plinth]

probably
i don't think he was buying them

[fast dew]

He has that clothing store!

[frail harness]

I could be misremembering but in call of tempestarii do you not reunite the shadow with Sevagoth's corpse

[fast dew]

Im looking at it and that clothing store has an onlyne poster.

[lean garden]

Steal? have you seen his bling? he probably put a down payment of a few obols and then bought everything, including his clothing brand

[frail harness]

That being the prime degraded over time seems like a fairly valid conclusion to come to all things considered

[fast dew]

And what seems to be sale signs 😭

[silk atlas]

Yes but there's not a single mention of him having been degraded at all, especially when regular frames have been used in the Old War just as much as Primes anyway

[lean garden]

and neither Corpse nor shadow was a prime

[frail harness]

Actually maybe primes dont degrade and some people just like to go graverobbing and steal all the gold to sell it lol

[fast dew]

Bro is smart financially

[lean garden]

the issue here is that theres a very big gap that needs to be covered

[frail harness]

I didnt say it was the prime i said it could have been the prime that was degraded to the current one

[silk atlas]

And there's no mention of "prime degredation" even being a thing so we can't prove that

[fast dew]

The concept of grave robbing primes

The opposite happened to Xaku

[lean garden]

we have a prime, and then we have sevagoth, and to make the claim that one degraded into the other needs to be substantiated with more than just "oh one dummy thicc, the other skinny legend"

[frail harness]

I mean, given sevagoth is entirely themed visually and lore-wise around being an undead corpse, I think its a fair conclusion

[silk atlas]

They're just two different things that were made in the Old War.

[lean garden]

but thats solely based on appearances again!

[blissful merlin]

I think this is where they’re getting the idea

[silk atlas]

It's really not because ever since Harrow people love trying to make Warframes out as more unique than they really are.

And time and time again people need it hammered in that they can just make multiple of the same Warframe.

[lean garden]

Nekros Prime looks more like a corpse than Nekros! His guts are literally exposed!

[frail harness]

I mean, every Harrow kinda is special

Given Rell is like a tiny bit possessing all of them

[lean garden]

the wonders of tying your consciousness into a body that is connected to the rest and to more

[strange plinth]

a couple of lyon's recent chats are really hitting the "hammering it in" aspect of this

[lean garden]

casually uploading your mind to the hivemind and then having one cloud deleting all of it LOL

[silk atlas]

That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking how people thought Rell was the only person to ever have a Harrow.

Then Protea because it was commissioned by Parvos.

Then how they thought Xaku was one of a kind.

And like every other somewhat cool Warframe in existence to the point that Roathe had to plainly spell it out that he had a horde of Uriels to command under him.

[frail harness]

I think its believable that not every single warframe was mass produced unless said otherwise, and i think its believable that the prime captain warframe sevagoth was the same sevagoth whose shadow piloted another ship and eventually got reunited with his long-dead corpse

Im not by any means saying its canon but its a little dismissive to act like its an impossible outcome

[silk atlas]

"Mass production" is also another term people throw around. It's not mass production nor one of a kind, they just made more of them. There's literally "batches" of Warframe that are made.

[frail harness]

That still counts as mass production for my purposes because mass production gets the point across in less words

[fast dew]

Roathe has been good for that recently

Personal favourite

[frail harness]

There are different amounts of different warframes and at least me personally im inclined to believe sometimes theres only one, or that even if there are multiple sevagoths theres no reason someone cant figure that the one sevagoth character we meet used to be a prime, given when he was piloting the tempestarii

Its just a fun idea lol

[silk atlas]

It's dismissive because DE has constantly tried adding in extra lore to subsequent Warframes that shows that almost every single one of them isn't special enough to not just make multiple of that people continue to gloss over, and then somehow also ignore the two times that it's actually relevant.

[lean garden]

Im not acting like its an impossible outcome. Im acting like no one has actually shown it to be a possible outcome. Like if anyone can actually bridge the gap without relying on speculation I'd be more willing to accept, but they havent. Its always coming back to: Theres two of them, they look different, therefore degradation

[silk atlas]

And there's also the fact it hasn't been established at all before that a Prime even degrades into a regular Warframe anyway.

[frail harness]

I just think its a bit weird to so adamantly refuse that the sevagoth from COTT may have once been a prime when he could have been and it wouldnt do any damage, in fact id find it really cool because it plays into his theme of a decaying undead pirate captain of a ghost ship

[silk atlas]

It'd be cool but there's nothing to suggest it.

[frail harness]

Like this is the one case where I think prime degradation would have no downsides

My dad works at DE and he said one day we'll go to Modern Perita and see the exalibur prime with the hunhullus and it's gold pieces will be half withered away and rotting 🙏

[swift sentinel]

Degrades Sevagoth comes from the designer notes on his deluxe and his prime.

[frail harness]

Oh damn fr?

[swift sentinel]

It was meant as continuous from ultra degraded deluxe to pristine Prime, but that's just the design language not canon lore

[silk atlas]

Nooo????

[frail harness]

VINDICATION?

[silk atlas]

That's the Deluxe description

[swift sentinel]

It's was from the reveal DevStream I think

It's not lore

[frail harness]

I could be wrong I believe theyre talking about the deluxe skin that was turned into the prime?

Maybe?

I've heard the prime design started as a deluxe design and later became a prime in production

Found it!

Yep, designer intended sevagoth to be a degraded and decrepit prime

Vindication!

[strange plinth]

"However, this idea was scrapped..." in the second paragraph

[silk atlas]

Ignoring the parts where they scrapped it

[frail harness]

Still not canon but the fact that they were explicitly originally designed with that in mind at least to me counts as a viable reason someone can choose to believe that

'Nothing leads to that' isnt true, even if the connection isnt canon

[silk atlas]

There isn't a single peep of him being "degraded" in the quest, which is why the other dude kept trying to say because it's just because he looks like that.

[winged flume]

Returning to this thought, I think I got my Operator around the time of The New War but didn't play that quest until like early December the next year in 2022 to rush to get to Whisper of the Walls and Gargoyles Cry Event of 2023ish? Time fells like it's compressed and has no meaning.

I honestly can't remember at this point.

[lean garden]

Like sure, I don't deny that it is a conclusion someone can come to, but as we have been saying, that dont make it a valid conclusion

[frail harness]

I think it is valid

Valid does not mean correct when it comes to fan theories

It can be valid and not end up being right

[lean garden]

valid means that the premises logically lead to the conclusion, but as Ive said, there's a biiiig gap between the premise and conclusion

[frail harness]

Ehh im gonna have to disagree, everything from the designs(which were intentionally made to convey this idea) his theme as a ghost captain, the framing of the quest, and the ingame description of his prime all seem like fairly reasonable things to lead someone to believe that the one in the quest is the decayed corpse of the prime, since it is objectively a corpse and visibly looks like a decayed version of the prime(as was intended)

[strange plinth]

there's a decent amount of the prime that Cannot decay into the regular, though
the coat(?) thing is the main one to point at

[lean garden]

yea it goes from one side to two

[frail harness]

They're purely infested biomass, if one part can change/decay id assume all parts can, in different ways

[silk atlas]

I've already said my piece on all this.

People have already tried using the whole "prime degredation" thing to explain away Protea and then still being shocked when Protea Prime rolled around when the entire term and thing is just something someone made up and hasn't been introduced in the story at any point anyway.

[lean garden]

but uh, the design wasnt trying to convey that. The design was for the deluxe (now scrapped) to be the "undegraded" (sic Completed) form. The Prime was to be the "original from the orokin era"

so even in the original considerations the prime wouldnt even be in the area for "degradation"

[daring flare]

During the cutscene where free Uriel is there any place where I can find the narration without the music?

[lean garden]

like the latin?

[daring flare]

nah it's in eng

https://youtu.be/QSjgC59mpiw

[frail harness]

As far as I know, the design that got used for the prime was supposed to be his deluxe, when it was originally designed. It got swapped to his prime

[lean garden]

wait how did you know that

[daring flare]

wtv is being said in the link above. Ik I can find some Ballas quotes on the wiki but I can't find the page for uriel if that even exists

[lean garden]

you mean wally's lines?

[daring flare]

yeah whoever is talking

in the first like 30 sec

[strange plinth]

afaik the only full english in that first bit is the "They're laughing at you up there, kiddo."
the rest is latin or voidtongue

[frail harness]

I dont have a better quality image but this is the original design that became the prime. Initially a deluxe skin. Obviously all the gold was added after it was switched to prime but the actual design is more or less the same beneath the gold

[strange plinth]

either way there should be download links here

[daring flare]

or maybe I can turn off music and keep voices?]

[frail harness]

The deluxe being the non-degraded was rejected because they didnt want deluxe that inflicts with the lore, so if anything the deluxe then being switched to a prime may mean its still the undegraded one and just not a deluxe for that reason lol

[daring flare]

I love you bro 💖

ty

[lean garden]

lol

so how would you frame the argument

since we're playing validity and not soundness

[frail harness]

Im not saying thats canon either im just saying i cant blame anyone for thinking that

Its what I personally choose to believe because I find it more interesting

[lean garden]

is the conclusion that prime degradation exists or that base is a degraded prime

because one is valid and the other a fallicy

[frail harness]

I dont really see how its a fallacy

[lean garden]

gimme a sec Ill bring up the exact fallacy it is

[frail harness]

Like i said I feel like prime degradation exists in some form, I just dont think its natural personally. I think outside factors are required, like being adrift in the void

Being adrift in the void did some funny shit to xaku too

I dont think every prime will degrade, I just think it can happen

[lean garden]

here we go affirming the consequent

P then Q

Q.

Therefore P

For the sake of argument, lets imagine Prime Degradation is real

[strange plinth]

the broken lamp analogy is better i think
a broken lamp can cause a room to go dark, but a dark room does not mean there is a broken lamp

[lean garden]

I mean, thats it exactly, but lot word

[frail harness]

I think youre missing thst our definitions on what prime degradation is are very different

[lean garden]

PD is real, therefore sevagoth P can degrade into B

B exists.

Therefore P degraded

thats a fallacy

However if you go

[frail harness]

I just said I dont think primes inherently degrade, just that it is possible. Which is technically objectively correct since things can degrade just by being broken over time and we know frames can be broken

I said I think prime degradation exists when external factors are applied

[lean garden]

Sev P degrades into Sev B, therefore PD is real, that is a valid conclusion

[loud oriole]

-# but time is non-existent in the void?

[frail harness]

That isnt entirely true

Time isnt linear in the void

[hollow trench]

I have questions regarding the infestation and the void. If lizzzie says the same or similar lines as the helminth aka talking like the eldritch horror it is and implying in the Kim convo that they are outside of time are they not an antithesis to the void or just another occupying power

[lean garden]

not sure why theyd be an antithesis

[hollow trench]

Like to the void specifically? But nothing else
Like being another problem to deal with

[lean garden]

but like, what is the antithesis here

why is a hivemind species antithetical to a funky space magic place

[hollow trench]

Bad wording, would it more or less be like two people in a room arguing over space?

Like Wally wants to have 3/4s of the room but the infestation says nah we ain’t doing that

[loud oriole]

wally wants to remove the room
infestation wants to be the room
-# but that's just my late night take

[hollow trench]

Because if the infestation can be outside of time (unless it’s just specific to the grey strain or Helminth/lizzie) would that not pose a threat to Wally?

[hollow trench]

That helps

[frail harness]

Wally built the room and doesnt appreciate the people squatting in it

[strange plinth]

i don't think so?
the infestation is pretty afraid of the void, anyway
and they don't really exist outside of time like the void does, they can just see through it
afaik, at least

[lean garden]

I don't think its so much they argue about space

I dont think theres any room to argue about

they just in there

The infested dont really exist out of time like some 4D being, they "exist" out of time because all their bits experiencing 3D life is connected

so the hivemind experiences it in 4D

[hollow trench]

Huh

[lean garden]

kek 4D movie

[hollow trench]

Grab the popcorn and 4d glasses

[lean garden]

uuuuuh

imagine you have a server, one of them big computing ones

and you have all these computers connected to it

[hollow trench]

I know what you meant lol my b

My wording sucks

[lean garden]

but your internet is so strong youre connecting to past and future versions of all your computers

[hollow trench]

It makes sense why the infestation hates warframes

Like your cousin is using void energy to turn parts of you into ash

But nidus is the exception no?

He doesn’t use void energy technically ?

[restive river]

All frames are void powered

Nidus is basically all infested but his batteries are still what the infested fears and can not infest

[hollow trench]

Ohhhhhh

[lean garden]

scrolling back to this, personally my stance is that PD doesnt occur even with external influences, but like I thought we were already past that part and discussing about if it was valid someone comes to the conclusion that sev B is degraded Sev P?

[lean garden]

hence this

[frail harness]

holy hell why does gyre just have infinite energy

[fast dew]

Built like that

[lean garden]

you using archon stretch? yea she just built like that

[frail harness]

I aint even using archon stretch i was just mastering her after building her lol

[fast dew]

My wisp when I had her invigorated was like. In the thousand w her energy

[restive river]

Lore accurate warframe

[frail harness]

cathode grace just doesnt end

[lean garden]

use with augment, I promise it gets nuttier

augment makes her 4 hit an extra time for 200% damage and extends 4

free damage for playing the same

[dark compass]

Lore...

[hollow trench]

The orokin existed for a hot minute but exactly when did they make their debut

Was after the radiation wars

[frail harness]

damn gyre prime has a cool dodge animation

[hollow trench]

Was it after the radiation wars

[strange plinth]

before the 18th, probably after the first
the 18th is mentioned in duviri tablets, so that was part of orokin history

[hollow trench]

18th?

Oh wait

[strange plinth]

radiation wars, sorry

[hollow trench]

Jesus

You think you’d have enough nukes

The first radiation wars taking place I’d guess after 1999?

[frail harness]

Yeah Eleanor and Drifter conclude the radiation wars are likely humanity's effort to purge the techrot

And ironically what most likely leads to it shifting into the infestation we know today

[strange plinth]

at some point after, yeah. not clear when the first actually starts
the reactor explosion doesn't happen in the "original" nor the drifter-altered version of events, so that probably doesn't start it

[restive river]

They potentially existed as far back as 1999 due to the ORO company existing and the Kinemtrik thing

There’s bread crumbs but nothing is hard confirmed other than ORO being terrible and having contact with world leaders iirc

[hollow trench]

Essentially being the stuff of what conspiracy theories are based on given the info we know of the orokin

In 1999 at least

[frail harness]

Could the 1999 protoframes survive the radiation wars if they become full warframes beforehand?

Can warframes tank 18 nukes?

[restive river]

Yeah, it’s a big theory they originated as far back as 1999 and likely before then but there’s no hard evidence

[restive river]

No.

[hollow trench]

Well warframes currently survive lethal dose rates of radiation

So technically

[restive river]

All of the protoframes will be lost to time and the infestation, the exception being Flare if we help them

[hollow trench]

Yes however

[restive river]

18 radiation wars
Not 18 nukes

[hollow trench]

You make a point

[restive river]

The Protoframes def do not make it to the modern day in any capacity
There’s no bootstrap paradox.

[hollow trench]

Oh no I mean like regular Excalibur or rhino

[restive river]

As much as we all hate Ballas he was smart and he had to come up with the Warframes for Albrecht to be able to use them

[frail harness]

I mean flare manages to make it to modern day

[hollow trench]

They could tank some radiation

[restive river]

I doubt they can survive that much radiation either

[frail harness]

Ideally we end the timeloop and just bring our 1999 friends to the modern era that way lol

[restive river]

Okay but consider how they do that.

[strange plinth]

they make it to the night of naga drums, and they're not anywhere that the radiation wars affect in that time

[fast dew]

Albrecht did manage to do what Ballas wanted to do, somewhat.

[frail harness]

If flare is able to, they all are. Physiologically speaking

[restive river]

The timeloop doesn’t really end and time still continues, they continue on without us, succumb and are lost to history one way or another

[fast dew]

Flare isn't able to

[restive river]

Not really?

[fast dew]

Flare is hibernating in a comet.

[frail harness]

No i meant end the timeloop so theyre able to leave 1999 permanently

Rn we cant bring them to the present because theyre stuck in an enclosed loop

[fast dew]

Flare has become the starman
-# but not a man

[frail harness]

Yeah i know but thats still them existing beyond 1999 lol

[restive river]

They
They do
The loop is a loop de loop, they are both in the loop and once new years hits they extend outside of it

[dark compass]

The starframe

[frail harness]

I do not think you get it

[dark compass]

[restive river]

We sorta can with transference and in theory we could briefly bring them to the Origin System if Kaya worked towards that

[fast dew]

Bombastine don't ever change

Reminds me of my old theater teacher

[dark compass]

Checks out

[restive river]

I mean Ballas managed it kinda too

Accidentally ofc

[hollow trench]

The virus itself only needs biomass to rebuild right? If Excalibur is just plopped in and exposed to radiation over time damage may occur

[strange plinth]

if roathe is to be believed, we could also cultivate helminths to do so
ofc that would also be leaving 1999 without the hex, so that would have to be temporary anyway

[restive river]

Enough of anything and a frame will just die

[frail harness]

everyone in 1999 is doomed anyway because we know the techrot remain out of control and eventually the radiation wars happen

[restive river]

They aren’t immortal

[restive river]

Also Scaldra and who knows what else exists

[frail harness]

As bad as it feels to say i dont think 1999 is any worse off without the hex because everyone is dying anyway lol

[restive river]

Once the protos lose their minds I doubt they’d be able to really fend off Scaldra as well as they do now

[strange plinth]

the loop needs the hex there to defend the "good ending" of the year

[restive river]

It is an unfortunate situation cause despite the changes we make none but the evil boy band ai clones make it to the present

[frail harness]

Yeah but without extra effort like kaya's, the hex cant remain outside of 1999 for long while the loop is active, so ideally the loop needs to end before we extract them to our time anyway

So the reactor wouldve already been saved at that point in time

Since the radiation wars likely dont happen immediately after 1999, theres a window to get them out

Hell theres probably time to decommission the reactor so it never blows up and then leave with the hex

[pine orchid]

I want so much to bring the Hex to our orbiter or Drifter Camp

bet they'd lose it, them getting to see space and spaceship and all the planets

[loud oriole]

let me fulfill my promise to aoi

[cosmic badge]

It would be intresting if they get brought to the dormizone and it gets to be a base of operations for that

[pine orchid]

oh you right!! gotta show aoi the dragons!!

[cosmic badge]

It would also be cool if thats how they plot device their way to get the triad and the hex/roundtable to meet

While also fulfilling the desire of having a zariman Base of operations

[dark compass]

I would kill for dormizone base

I want Arthritis to be my roommate

[pine orchid]

I'm just throwig it out there, but what if your hex date hangs around your bedroom and then has new dialogue to reflect that
like currently dating Arthur he's like "I cant believe you've got an entire spaceship and you're slumming it here with me"

I'd love to hear Arthur be like "wtf is that thing floating around outside watering the flowers?" and "gods you weren't kidding, all the food really are cube shaped" or smth

[fast dew]

Arthur is just silly like that

[lean garden]

youve pretty much got the right idea, theres no room to extract the hex in a more permanent form. Thanks DE

[dark compass]

:(

[loud oriole]

best we can do is gemini skin in simulacrum while they stand stiff as a board

[rough yacht]

Is there ever any reasoning given to warfrimes that shouldnt have primes getting primes? Like Jade will probably get a prime at some point, but Jade in her current form is the same form she had since the orokin empire. How can they make an "original" prime version?

[dark compass]

They simply talk about it when it's something interesting they want to do I guess

When it isn't then they just don't explain anything

I feel like they can just handwave it

Write something like FLAMES OF REVOLUTION, BLAZING GLORY for Temple Prime and leave it at that

[strange plinth]

rev got the unum mention in his prime armor description and a direct callout in the trailer

[dark compass]

Fatherless abomination

[fast dew]

Ballas pulling out the where's ur dad 💔

[strange plinth]

lmfao

[silk atlas]

Thinking that Jade would be a unique case in the first place is the issue here. They just as easily could've gotten some other poor saps punished by making them Jade's.

Really the only ones who "shouldn't" have Primes are Rev (which got one anyway) and Temple.

[strange plinth]

as for jade, there's nothing that particularly says she was unique. so a prime version could be made regardless-
ah, as sealskin said

[silk atlas]

Don't assume they're the only instance of that Warframe

[fast dew]

Unless its explicitly said, its usually not the only one

[dark compass]

Lizzie ate an orokin, so now temple is prime

[rough yacht]

Oh hmm I really never considered that. I always assumed warframes came into being based on the unique way them helminth mutated specific people. Didnt really consider them being able to choose

[frail harness]

i wonder if every jade is pregnant or if jade jade is an outlier because she was already pregnant

[frail harness]

Thats how the first of a warframe is made, but from there the same warframe can be reproduced on others. See hex

[pine orchid]

Stalker: "Everywhere I go, I see your face"

[dark compass]

Yeah, it's completely unrelated. Albrecht just really likes irony with protos

[silk atlas]

They're made in batches and the serum can just as easily be stuck onto any other poor sap, like with the Hex

[fast dew]

... they're his dad jokes.

Thats how he expresses dad joke humour

[rough yacht]

Well the hex are different right? The syrup lets them keep their humanity

[fast dew]

Syrup

[silk atlas]

Mmm

[pine orchid]

yummy

[fast dew]

Mm maple syrup

[rough yacht]

lmao syrum*

[dark compass]

Protoframe syrup...

[rough yacht]

serum

what is wrong with me

[frail harness]

As far as I know the protoframes have the same serum their transformation is just slower, probably a matter of dosage.

[strange plinth]

their injections were modified to slow down the transformation, at least somewhat

[silk atlas]

Albrecht tried making a serum to halt the process mid-way but Albrecht realized it wasn't going to stop, so they're going to turn into full Warframes eventually.

[dark compass]

Yeah, Temple gets overtaken eventually

[fast dew]

Is this what a Canadian proto serum would be called

[rough yacht]

So then what exactly were primes? Were they just decorated versions, originals, or like elite warriors?

[fast dew]

Ehh, safer to say modified iirc

[strange plinth]

fancy

[dark compass]

Tuned up for an occasion, started out better than others, etc

[silk atlas]

They're just better versions. Nothing to say about if they're first or not because the answer to that is "well sometimes"

[fast dew]

Elite warriors. Sometimes built, sometimes born. To serve the prime vanguard

[silk atlas]

Primes and not-Primes were both used consistently in the Old War

[dark compass]

Some worked their way there, some were nepobabies

Cough protea cough

[fast dew]

Others did it themselves (lavos)

[fast dew]

Eh, it was base protea parvos made. Ballas likely stole that design

I expect the same as Qorvex when he gets a prime

[rough yacht]

gotcha gotcha. Final question: the frames we the tenno make are just fully infested flesh-steel right? Like just cloned meat

[dark compass]

Yes

I think

[fast dew]

Yeah, we aint killing a human to make em

[dark compass]

Yet

[pine orchid]

we're 3d printing them!

[rough yacht]

yeah figured lol

[fast dew]

But they still have the memories/personality of their hosts

[strange plinth]

nope, just printing a dormant one

[pine orchid]

from giblets and junk

[silk atlas]

Cloned meat but it's as if you just printed an exact copy.

[rough yacht]

If they retain their personalities, how can we possibly say that we're not harming a human to make them

[dark compass]

Since Helminth is a hivemind, I suppose their minds are also a bit somewhere in there

[fast dew]

Which i am now reluctant to say its the ability of the foundary, but the infestation itself

[rough yacht]

meat doesnt hold memories

[dark compass]

Because they have been consumed by the infestation

[fast dew]

The infestation does!

[dark compass]

Meat quite literally holds their personalities

[rough yacht]

ahh that actually makes sense

[silk atlas]

The Helminth is what helps the Foundry replicate the Warframes.

[lean garden]

perhaps because of Jade, now every other Jade looks preggers but they just have ball instead or babey

[dark compass]

I bet it gets very awkward when you swap animation sets

[rough yacht]

yeah the crystal ball is representative of the orignal child

[lean garden]

the infestation casually just reapplying a different personality set from the cloud

[fast dew]

We're only really learning this for sure now, I think. We did know strong emotions (?) Permanently changed the strain

[rough yacht]

This is the future AI bros want

[frail harness]

wretched. may you face eternal punishment for your crimes

[fast dew]

Shit ye you right mb

[fast dew]

Funnily enough, the orokin hated ai

[dark compass]

Helminth also keeps our PC running through time

And reads all our conversations...

[rough yacht]

Well their AI was much more I, much less A

[fast dew]

They have a different perception of gender than us (none, they don't perceive gender) and they hate ai. Kinda based of them.

[dark compass]

Why make ai when you can already turn people into flesh puppets and clone them indefinitely

[fast dew]

Too bad the lot of them are child killing abusive assholes

[dark compass]

Cuts the middle man out of workers rights violation

[fast dew]

Aint making warframes in general a crime for a member of the 7 to do 💀

[dark compass]

Who's gonna chase them breaking the law

[restive river]

It’s def the foundry to some extent, umbra comes to mind

[dark compass]

Infestation just works with the foundry

[loud oriole]

helminth supplies the organic materials for the foundry

[dark compass]

Foundry is like surgical gloves and instruments

[restive river]

We scanned fragments of Umbra, plugged those into the foundry and out popped Umbra, memories intact due to his unique creation/bolt

Cordylon on the Foundry:

7grims asks: How come the Foundry can create live things like Spectres and Sentinels, but can't create kubrow?
While there are many similarities between sentient organic life and artificial intelligence, several distinguishing characteristics set mechanical and digital beings aside from organic ones. Organic life is composed of soft tissues and malleable sinew sustained by an inefficient plasma designed to protect the core being from external threats.

Organic components are difficult to construct and even more tedious to properly store for future use. The Foundry, while capable of replicating natural and synthetic materials such as fabric or metals, is not properly equipped for the growth of organic life. This also does not take into consideration the complications in growing 'living' subjects – a point of difficulty the Grineer have long tried to overcome.

Infested tissue is the only known exception to this parameter, as it can be easily grown and thrives in any environment.

Perhaps in a more ideal future where all life is composed of easily replicable materials, the Foundry can provide more utility. There is a lesson to be learned in the impressive reliability of artificial life.

[loud oriole]

you wouldn't download a dog

[restive river]

The foundry is basically a really good 3D printer and the infestation is the ultimate filament

[dark compass]

You wouldn't download a Kubrow

[loud oriole]

with the only caveat being it wants everything to become it

[restive river]

It is interesting that Sentinels can be created, they specifically mention artificial intelligence which to me counts towards them maybe being some variant of the Sentients 👀

That’s a whole other thing (I want sentinel lore)

[stiff beacon]

i mean it literally looks like a 3d printer

[restive river]

I believe this was made before the Sacrifice so they may have not had the lore on what frames are and the fact they’re sentient organic life by technicality, but the infested component could be what allows it so
Maybe it is due to the infestation, or a mix of the two

The foundry can’t make organic sentient life alone but the infestation applies it in a way that the foundry can work with it
Like
Mapping the brain and it’s memories

[restive river]

It does and that’s def on purpose

[loud oriole]

could just be a 'genetic modification' of vomvalysts

[restive river]

I still like to think of them as the equivalent to Sentient puppies

They just wanna help out

They’re just lil guys

Pet-able sentinels when

[dark compass]

I can't believe they were just sentient skulls

Like it's just a bunch of flying skulls

Spooky

[restive river]

Fits well cause
Eidolons

The plains and deimos are so spooky and the valis is just capitalist skate park

[loud oriole]

necraloid is just a entrati-fied vomvalyst

[lean garden]

vomvalyst sentinel skin when?

[restive river]

In a way, yeah lol

[dark compass]

Eidolon hunters would scream if they saw one in the wild

Revenant prime access trust- oh wait

[restive river]

https://tenor.com/view/angai313-spongebob-sad-spongebob-crying-gif-21679826

[loud oriole]

-# actually wait, this could downspiral into a conspiracy of entrati trying to make his own sentients but only had the means necessary for warframe creation or just a concerning amount of skulls stockpiled/cloned

[dark compass]

I mean, weren't voidrigs just proto warframes

With them seemingly just being dead/cloned people stuffed into robots

Like in the hit videogame series five nights and freddy's

[strange plinth]

just like in the hit videogame series five nights and freddy's,,

[loud oriole]

five nights at entrati's

[strange plinth]

but no i think the skulls in necramechs are just the entrati motif

[dark compass]

I feel like it's too on the nose to not have dead people in the pods

Like it would just be a lame copout

You can't have a robot called necramech that has a skull on it and a weirdly human shaped pod piloting it

Not have a human body inside in some way

The concept art for Entrati tombs have the exact same pods

They sure did value their servants

[loud oriole]

don't worry servant, even after you move on you will still be the best assistant to us

https://tenor.com/view/albrecht-entrati-the-man-in-the-wall-warframe-1999-warframe-you-are-late-warframe-jojo-gif-4432154459658682236

[strange plinth]

those are good points, hm
they are designed by Father, so how exactly that impacts that final point is odd

[brittle siren]

so Ballas is William confirmed?

[loud oriole]

no i, Captain Vor, is William Afton from the hit videogame series Five Nights at Freddy's because i always come back.

[restive river]

Willias Afton

[brittle siren]

who knows, maybe an alternate version of Ballas would make an appearance

he would be evil Ballas, where instead loving Margulis, he hate her and love everything else

[dark compass]

Will we get a kim chat with him?

[loud oriole]

would he type with his normal arm at a normal distance or from 2ft away squinting using his long arm

[brittle siren]

the latter

[loud oriole]

-# or standing/sitting at a 45° angle looking left tapping away

[brittle siren]

tbh if this "good" Ballas come to the lab, our Lotus and especially the Op would be very on edge

[loud oriole]

https://tenor.com/view/black-guy-staring-at-someone-gif-24012300

operator would evaporate good ballas the second he enters.
lotus would hesitate for a second

[sly pagoda]

This comment from Marie makes me think Hollvania is likely where RL Luxembourg is.

[frail harness]

This is interesting, i wonder what her part in making the warframes was

[drowsy saddle]

GirlHoldingSolderingIron.png

[frail harness]

oh hang on she can do transference but she isnt a tenno

[drowsy saddle]

Anyone can, its just that most don't survive for long

[lean garden]

margulis or silvanna?

[blissful merlin]

Think they’re meaning Silvanna

[lean garden]

transference is a tech, so aside from the tenno who can do it au naturale, people can tech it out too

[restive river]

Somatics.

"I'll stow away with Earth-bound cargo, just my Apothics and these slapdash somatics I've stolen. By nightfall I'll be home again in my tent under those bitter, acid skies. This time, I'm going to fix it. I will seed a mighty forest, stronger than history… and by my will, use it to bring life."

The Operator has to wear somatics too after Margulis sealed away our memories and our abilities, including our innate transference

Though I’m sure somatics can appear in many forms as Ballas utilizes transference to communicate to Umbra

Possibly to stop/control him too but that could be him being a Dax

[blissful merlin]

I love the silver grove quest simply cuz I love transference and somatic lore.

[cunning sedge]

during the quest where the Drifter meets Arthur, how come he's in a normal Excalibur, when Umbra is earned from a previous story quest? couldn't the Drifter have brought Umbra instead?

[tall echo]

It's a replicated excal based off of arthur, the oldminth couldn't replicate umbra

[strange plinth]

oldminth,,

[tall echo]

Hey, gotta differentiate somehow

[brittle siren]

or new, since it was created base on our current Helminth

[tall echo]

It's in the past, made with old technocyte, based on a modern plan

Old, old, new

[brittle siren]

yes but without the modern version, Techrot version wont exist

[tall echo]

Linearly it's older idc about specifics for a shorthand

[tacit carbon]

Luxembourgh is landlocked though. Hollvania skyboxes show Hollvania once had a vibrant cruise scene (very large cruise ships in the background at port near the stadium)

[glass flume]

has the lore answered any info about narmer like who's in charge post-new war?

[fast dew]

Pazuul, the Ram

Erra's body controlled by a... parasite?

Would the archons be called a parasite?

[glass flume]

yeah but something (or someone) took erra's body and turned into pazuul

[fast dew]

We suspect it's Nira

But we don't know for sure

[pale cedar]

Pazuul took Erras body

[pale cedar]

Nira is the suspected onr truly in control Narmer not necessarily the one who took the body

[brittle siren]

feminism /j

[stray herald]

but wasn't nira killed?

[pale cedar]

All were before Pazuul revived them with shards

[strange turtle]

https://tenor.com/view/somehow-palpatine-returned-somehow-palpatine-poe-dameron-poe-gif-20849141

[stray herald]

yea but didn't erra die after we killed the archons? or an i just remembering wrong

[dire current]

Pazuul's basically in the position of collecting the bodies of Boreal, Amar and Nira after we fight them, and reinserting the shards.

And yes, Erra did die during the New War. And given that Nira's dead by the time that New War completes... leaves the question of who fused the Ram to Erra's corpse.

[pale cedar]

After the grafting he was revived

Pazuul is keeping him alive

[brittle siren]

Archons was dead long before Narmer, revived during Ballas rules, and re-revived again after his death

[dark compass]

Archons waking up every single time after we kill them like they're playing dark souls

[lean garden]

but the archon hunts happen after the new war too

[brittle siren]

"if the Tenno has cheat code, so do we"

[lean garden]

so the archons had to have been put back together

[dire current]

Which is why I am wondering who or what it was that assembled Pazuul.

[lean garden]

Nira is hinted to be the cause

[brittle siren]

I forgot that the og Sentient of the Archons dead, revive during Old War, then New War, and latest is post New War

[lean garden]

althought then the question would obviously be, who put nira back together

[stray herald]

a re-revived nira came back

?

[brittle siren]

re-re-revived

they died like, 3 times (not counting Archon Hunt)

[dire current]

... Come to think of it, Nira's mentioned specifically to be rather cunning, wasn't she? Wonder if she, as an Archon, found a way to persist after having the shard removed, at least for a short time.

[stray herald]

but then who brought her back to life, again?

[brittle siren]

Pazuul, since he not dead in New War

[stray herald]

cool, and he was willingly grafted onto erra?

[pale cedar]

Yes

[brittle siren]

which make this a slight retcon, because DE add him in update after New War quest, kinda contradict Hunhow's "there only 3 of them"

[pale cedar]

Did Hunhow say there was only 3 ever?

[brittle siren]

also if Pazuul have orange shard, then possibly there are violet and green one too

[dire current]

To be fair, Hunhow might not have known about Pazuul. It's entirely possible that Pazuul is an entirely new Archon, created during the New War, and therefore had zero information about it. Which might mean he would've been unaware of the Ram being brought down.

[brittle siren]

let me check the quest again

[stray herald]

side tangent: looking at the archon shards we can equip, we could be getting 2 new archons, if DE wants to make more archons

[brittle siren]

from wiki

[dire current]

Still is the point that Hunhow might not have known, or Space Grandpa had a senior moment and simply just forgot about Pazuul.

[stray herald]

DE better make lore make sense

<@&778745217037238293>

[dire current]

Oh for... <@&778745217037238293> We've got a compromised account

[shell tulip]

[brittle siren]

Hunhow only show us 3, because Drifter said "is that an owl", means that scene is visually in our head, somehow

[stray herald]

unless the 3 were known bc they were the most active archons

with pazuul hiding in the shadows

[opaque zenith]

Or Pazuul wasn't na archon till "fusing" with Erra, so in the new war there were truly only 3

[stray herald]

well, lotus knew who pazuul is as an archon

[dire current]

Probably the best way to put it, felfuri. Boreal, Amar and Nira were all active by the time Drifter came about, and Pazuul was dormant, or in the shadows waiting. Probably already had Erra in mind for a body, as opposed to a warframe.

[opaque zenith]

Archons are only that title for the dead ones after fusing with the warframes (or Erra's) body, as I understant at least

[brittle siren]

still, if he knew Archons was back, he should warned us about Pazuul too, since after all, he is the Archon's leader

[opaque zenith]

Amar wasn't "archon Amar" in Tau, just "bloom guardian" for example

[pale cedar]

Technically the Archons leader was Erra

[brittle siren]

they are Archons after their first ever death

[brittle siren]

yeah but he still a "de facto leader"

[opaque zenith]

K, didn't get your take, please explain

[brittle siren]

they originally normal Sentients, but dead 1 time, then Erra bring them back with Archon Shards, and they dead again until New War, and dead once more to be revived the third time by Pazuul

[brittle siren]

well he is the Sentient Prince, and he revived them back

[stray herald]

I still wanna know more about the lords of tau

[brittle siren]

where did you get this title?

[stray herald]

one of pazuul's rants about hierarchy

[pale cedar]

"Above, the Lords of Tau. Below, my people. Below them, yours. And I, I shall serve as shepherd and minister."

[brittle siren]

maybe Natah's family?

[opaque zenith]

Pazuul could very well not been revived by Erra and stayed dead-dead tho, only being truly an archon after, supposesly, Nira's mendling Erra's body

[brittle siren]

then WHO bring him or Nira back?

if he already active and go hidden, then Nira returned would make sense
but if he dead until post New War, then who make him rise again?

Pazuul is a retcon, not big enough to shake the lore, but enough as excuse to make Narmer and Archons stay active for Archon Shards farm

[stray herald]

pray tau expansions will focus on this

[opaque zenith]

That's the question.
My personal theory is that since there's multiple shards (i.e. albreth's stock) the whole drifter archon killing was like: kill one, the others revive them and put on standby, so no way to truly kill unless all 3 (or 4 now) are deal with at the same time

[brittle siren]

i dont think so though, if so then Ballas would have use them during final battle already

[pale cedar]

For it to be a retcon something prior had to say only 3 were ever made

[brittle siren]

Hunhow psychically show us 3

[opaque zenith]

Yeah there's some holes in that theory, I based mostly on the one (or three) week cooldown for each archon hunts

[brittle siren]

"is that an owl" is a strange question to ask if he only TELLING you

that also beg the question, how tf Hunhow can get into human mind?

[pale cedar]

So in theory if I show you 3 of my brothers does it mean the 4th I didn’t doesn’t exist

[brittle siren]

yes, because Drifter ask for help to save Lotus, and Hunhow clearly know that all archon shard would help her, why not shown a 4th option?

and if Pazuul indeed go into hiding, Hunhow either have to know this tactic of the Ram and tell us, or question himself why the Ram not showing up

Also, Hunhow know the Archons exact location (since Nira was just on Earth and she suddenly move to Saturn), yet no info on Pazuul

Side note this prove the Ram is a coward

he never join in any fight

[opaque zenith]

Also, I see the terminology as: archons as the hybrids while eidolons as the dead (that can revive by consuming the shards intead of having it physically inserted)

[brittle siren]

main different is the archon shards, eidolon is literally too angry to die

[pale cedar]

Hunhow has been in the ocean for 1000 years and hasn’t seen the fourth for years why mention the 4th he hasn’t seen for so long?

[molten aspen]

I'm already MR 15 and the lore is still kinda hazy for me. Can someone explain to me the difference of Drifter and Operator (Besides their age). Does Drifter have any significance to Operator at this point in the story? Can Operator and Drifter exist in the same area at the same time or is that impossible? And last question... Can Operator access Descendia or 1999 or is it only Drifter who has access to that?

[brittle siren]

uh because his son revived all 4 Archons during Old War? If he know these 3, why not Pazuul

also you forgot that he can detect Archon (because how tf we know Nira moved from Earth to Saturn)

[brittle siren]

OP can go into Descendia since it Roathe mind, but they still busy searching Tau memory

[unique talon]

Just asking: why can't we access this device in the game? The orokin vitruvian archives might help us get to tau

[pale cedar]

Can doesn’t mean you’d think to detect the 4th if you think they’re dead

[unique talon]

But I don't understand why after the sacrifice we never used that anymore

At any time

[lean garden]

how would they?

[brittle siren]

why would he think Pazuul dead if he a de facto leader???????????

if anything, Pazuul would be the first choice to revived back by Erra

[molten aspen]

Okay so if they can meet in the Sanctum does that mean OP can meet and greet the Triad?

[lean garden]

technically yes

because roathe at times can hear oppy cry about adis

means he's close enough

[brittle siren]

well the Triad use Loid's Pom 2 to chat so

[opaque zenith]

Headcanon that the kim text about the orokin murder checklist is just the operator being a shoulder devil demanding drifter to type the mean chats to Roathe

[pale cedar]

Why would you think them alive if they haven’t showed up on any scanner?

[brittle siren]

why would he able to hide his presence from the Sentient King?

also even if he can't scan Pazuul, he still should warn us about the Ram too

[pale cedar]

Not if he doesn’t believe him to be alive

Hunhow has been in the ocean for 1000 years

He’s not up to date on everything

[brittle siren]

again, that your pov, Hunhow knew the Archons very well, he would know if Pazuul is going to return when the other 3 does

[opaque zenith]

Why would Erra revive a second leader? Why this revived Ram didn't get a warframe body and had to "wait" till Erra's body was avaiable?

[brittle siren]

idk ask Erra

[pale cedar]

Erra didn’t need Pazuul

[brittle siren]

if Pazuul is a second in command, he should be pretty strong

[opaque zenith]

Third actually, Ballas, Erra and Pazuul in a triad regence?

[brittle siren]

(I mean Erra solo'ed most Primed Warframe and Daxes)

[pale cedar]

No he didn’t

[brittle siren]

then explain dead body around him during his invasion inside Lua

[pale cedar]

You literally see the Lysts attacking them

[brittle siren]

you saying that Erra is weak?

[pale cedar]

No

I’m saying he didn’t solo all the primes

[brittle siren]

that he has no contribution in that room at all? He literally the only Sentient standing

[pale cedar]

Why are you saying I’m saying something I’m not

[brittle siren]

also iirc that was on the surface of Lua

I was mentioning inside the place where all Tenno sleeping

[pale cedar]

I just said he didn’t solo most of the Prime frames and Dax

We have much of the assault on Lua left out in the cutscene

We’re shown a small bit of it

All we see in the cutscene is he’s holding a single Dax and failed to kill them

[brittle siren]

well he would have if Lotus not interrupted him

Tenshin almost died too

[pale cedar]

0-2 is still 0-2

[brittle siren]

for whom? both time he was attacked by the Tenno

ofc Tenno has upper hand

Dax has no chance at all

[pale cedar]

Which means he’s physically failed to kill 2 Dax twice

There’s a difference between killing and almost killing

[brittle siren]

tbh we never seen Erra fight, so tbh idk how strong he is

but Natah is strong and she a younger sister (?)

[pale cedar]

Then why did you assume he soloed all most of the Prime Vanguard and Dax?

[brittle siren]

Because Natah could?

[lean garden]

Natah did what now?

[opaque zenith]

Teshin with the veil (or Lotus POV) scene, bro fights by trowning hands

[brittle siren]

and he seemingly walking into the room like catwalk

[brittle siren]

she did kill Umbra but tbf that was Ballas make him freeze

but her beam able to make Umbra body poof like there was barely anything there

[opaque zenith]

And some homing energy missiles in the necramech segment too

[lean garden]

so how did you get that erra could solo the prime vanguard because natah could?

if natah never soloed the prime vanguard in the first place

on account of being on their side

[brittle siren]

because even a drone can kill an excal prime, why would a child of a Sentient King would lose?

[lean garden]

Alot of massive overestimations and assumptions here

[brittle siren]

heck bring in the giant Sentient, they almost consumed Unum if Gara not nuked herself

[lean garden]

like hell, you just called NATAH a drone

[brittle siren]

no, i said if a DRONE can kill Excal Prime, then Natah would do better

[lean garden]

and then you erroneously link her shooting a nigh-paralyzed excal prime

wait no Im reading prime as umbra for some reason, runit back

[opaque zenith]

You're talking about the drone with a personal gundam? or the canister guy who just gave a knokback to the excal who didn't had psf?

[lean garden]

the DRONE is a hunhullus

[harsh swan]

Are yall talking about the new story mission?

[brittle siren]

no the one in Erra quest

[pale cedar]

Umbra vs Natah fair fight never happened

[lean garden]

?????

[brittle siren]

the goat

[brittle siren]

well Umbra can't even go near her during her takes off so

[brittle siren]

"dont have psf" 😭

[opaque zenith]

Yeah that was just a stagger, excal could very well get up after

[lean garden]

well thats because you got the cutscene wrong lmao

[lean garden]

^

the drone proceeds to get merked by mag

excal still alive btw

[harsh swan]

I thought so tbh that mission was kinda confusing but kinda not the drifting in and out was interesting but overall I kinda understood it

[thorny stone]

fat question: if the tenno make warframes, aren’t they just basically putting a corpse together? since warframes are basically dead ppl

[brittle siren]

ah yeah but without Mag he would die too

Sentient vs Warframe is like who atk faster will win

[pale cedar]

Warframes are in fact alive

[thorny stone]

ik

[brittle siren]

also iirc Natah has sth to push the OP out of Warframe

[lean garden]

so essentially: your assumption that erra can solo the vanguard is layered like a crazy onion with ridiculous upscaling and assumptions

[harsh swan]

There said to be metal suits now people were just the test subjects

[lean garden]

because a drone could knock an excal prime down -> therefore erra can solo the prime vanguard

[hazy prism]

No, more like 3d printing a person, none of the frames we have can be considered the original so

[lean garden]

do you hear how ridiculous that sounds?

[strange turtle]

No they’re still biological and people

[brittle siren]

yep Natah can literally push OP out of the Warframe lmao

[thorny stone]

what about the primes? they’re from before the old war

[strange turtle]

Or well, were, not much left in most of their heads

[lean garden]

depends really

the original iteration would have been human made

[opaque zenith]

Now He could have died by the handclap after yes, but that enter "cutscene death discussion" territory, and didn't happened anyway

[strange turtle]

Not from before, warframes were made during

[lean garden]

everything after is a toss-up

[tall echo]

we're still just making copies

[hazy prism]

Not all Warframes started as primes, and we didn't keep the ones from the old war, we remade them through parts from relics

[harsh swan]

Thanks for the correction

[brittle siren]

the reason why Natah can solo any warframe https://youtu.be/nn8fkMkNMrs

[thorny stone]

i SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE okay

[pale cedar]

No, they aren’t

[lean garden]

And you got that from her taking the kids from the pods or?

[brittle siren]

to be fair, I was on assumption that if Natah is so strong, her brother should be too

[lean garden]

which is a lousy assumption

[brittle siren]

new war boss fight

[lean garden]

theyre two separate sentients, both obviously built different both with different experiences

[pale cedar]

That was Ballas’ doing though

[brittle siren]

she literally shooting us

[tall echo]

erra can barely hit, let alone kill, the weakest sentients

[thorny stone]

i have a headcannon where the new war should have ended with Lotus and BALL ASS having a whole anime showdown that like cuts a planet in half with BALL ASS losing misrebly before getting injected with helminth and becoming Lotus’ PERSONAL WARFRAME as punishment for what he did to Umbra, Jade, etc.

lowkenieunly make her epic

[tall echo]

it'd have to be a specific strain or he'd just turn into a formless mass of helminth

[brittle siren]

the thing is we dont know how to inject Helminth into him

[tall echo]

we definitely don't have the knowledge needed to design a frame

[brittle siren]

we should have Cephalon'ed him

[pale cedar]

Lotus would’ve died if that happened she needed the final shards energy

[thorny stone]

yeahhhhhh

[thorny stone]

ik for all 3 versions of her

[tall echo]

anything that doesn't somehow extract the archon shard would be counterproductive

[tall echo]

no, just to regenerate fully

[thorny stone]

oh yeah cuz she’s half sentient or smth

[tall echo]

full sentient

[thorny stone]

oh

[brittle siren]

she is full sentient, her mind is all over the place

[tall echo]

the mimic queen, origin of all mimic enemies

[pale cedar]

Also only Orokin can create new unique Warframes so it is impossible because no other Orokin was around to make it happen

[brittle siren]

https://tenor.com/view/fnaf-fnaf-memes-the-mimic-five-nights-at-freddy's-fnaf-security-breach-ruin-gif-3935180139478958475

[tall echo]

burn

[tall echo]

-# *presumably

[brittle siren]

funny that was exactly how to kill these thing

[thorny stone]

okay but what about bloomin ALBRECHT making qouvex and 09

[brittle siren]

that was his thing

we dont know how either

[tall echo]

1. he's an orokin, 2. he didn't make cyte

[brittle siren]

Qorvex could arguably design with Ballas too

[pale cedar]

He’s Orokin and was in 1999 at the time hence why I said no other Orokin around

[thorny stone]

aren’t the orokin just human beings 2

[brittle siren]

ye

[opaque zenith]

3. He stole the already made formulas

[brittle siren]

and steal a meat from Helminth

poor guy

[pale cedar]

The knowledge to make new Warframes is a secret only Orokin know

[thorny stone]

i have learnt a lot from this interaction fellow tenno ty

[thorny stone]

but we know dead ppl is one of the ingredients

[brittle siren]

2 of them

i doubt this is a common knowledge even for the Seven

if not Nikoth could just inject some into her soldier

[tall echo]

alive ppl, actually

[thorny stone]

that’s worse 🥲

[tall echo]

the orokin were horrible creatures

[thorny stone]

but explains why umbra is the way he is

[brittle siren]

technically Xaku and Rev is dead to begin with

[pale cedar]

Congrats you have now learned the Orokin are terrible people

[tall echo]

made from living people

dead frame doesn't mean dead host

[thorny stone]

i already knew i’m just tryna get to understand more of the lore

[brittle siren]

Is Xaku even living though, they are pure void energy atp

[brittle siren]

oh ok

[tall echo]

xaku is the remains of the three frames, not the energy holding them together

[thorny stone]

probably helminth ate their whole body and the consciousness was taken by void energy. just a theory

[thorny stone]

oh yeah i remember now

[tall echo]

oh infestation doesn't eat, it just reconfigures

painfully

[thorny stone]

so somones brain can go to their but? 🤢

[tall echo]

useless things like organs get turned into nondescript mass

[opaque zenith]

Rev was the warden before, same use of alive person to make, Rev Prime tho is void shenanigans

[tall echo]

but no, body parts generally stay where they are if the infestation doesn't decide to fully assimilate the body

[thorny stone]

this is terrible information 😭

like HOW do they have the idea to do this

[tall echo]

you know how with the sundered helmet you can see umbra's eye? that's a rare exception of something unnecessary remaining almost intact, but still hidden inside the reshaped flesh

[tall echo]

they didn't

the orokin found the infestation, they didn't create it

[thorny stone]

OH

I THOUGHT THEY MADE IT

[tall echo]

they messed around with something older than any history we know of

[pale cedar]

Infestation also merges clothing you’re wearing to the flesh if you didn’t take the clothing off in time

[tall echo]

techrot is old, old infestation

and still not the original

[thorny stone]

NAH THERES SOMETHING IN DEMOIS GUYS I KNOW IT

[tall echo]

deimos is much newer

[twin wigeon]

Deimos has the Grey Strain of Infested

[tall echo]

two archimedeans detonated an infestation bomb there during the old war

[opaque zenith]

Now that I think about it Revenant prime is the only frame who wasn't made with people, a vegetarian's frame if you will

[thorny stone]

imagine a quest has an eldritch being of like the original infested or whatever

[pale cedar]

I wonder why Grey Strain people sell Helminth stuff

[tall echo]

in a way we do see some old infested creations

but not ancient old

but like, jordas golem and lephantis are pretty old

[thorny stone]

jordan golem

[tall echo]

jordas golem makes me a bit scared with how abnormal it looks

[pale cedar]

Afraid you'll get corrupted too?

[tall echo]

no I'll just burn off whatever the infestation tries to take

a very efficient solution

[opaque zenith]

Lephantis was made to fight the Old War tho, presumably before warframes, sure he fused with corpus and grineer to get his curent form, but "i'd call it ancient. Unless you refering to 1999-now time periods, like the coda

[fast dew]

Albrecht was given shit about the archon shards

So. He could just. Have helminth shit

Also, Grandmother. She knows people ig??

Albrecht also had a warframe made 😭

They just have helminth

[tall echo]

I'm saying it's not ancient old

[pale cedar]

The Entrati family gotta stop being given free stuff

[tall echo]

old war is far from ancient

[fast dew]

Though it does seem Son was the main person behind helminth, while archon shards was more Loid. I think?

[rapid kindle]

I wonder if the next quest is the end of the current void war arc and the beginning of some tau arc, all the other arcs except new war have 7 quests and our current one is at 6

[opaque zenith]

What would be enough to be ancient then?

[tall echo]

pre-1999

[fast dew]

Loid improves on Kermerros' work

[brittle siren]

Oh my Wally Lizzie reference other infested being

https://fixupx.com/shieldgating/status/2008861093515694570?s=46&t=5XSoAshUqsO-YG_gq2tB3Q

Warframe Archival (@shieldgating)

Comparison between voicelines of Jordas Golem & Lizzie

**💬 15 🔁 68 ❤️ 1.1K 👁️ 19.8K **

▶ Play video

FixupX · Jan 7, 2026, 11:19 AM

[pale cedar]

1899

Warframe 1899 when with Infestation so I can call it ancient

[fast dew]

Also kinda shits on his work by saying he can do better (which he does)

[opaque zenith]

then not even the coda are ancient, or anything at all

[tall echo]

yes

[opaque zenith]

alr, we agree that we have different time measures for ancient, then

[narrow pendant]

lyon calls nidri the "future-ancient staff" lol

from his perspective, it works

so for current day origin system, the old war is ancient

[tall echo]

it's hard to really decide when something that doesn't perceive time linearly is ancient

[opaque zenith]

From the hivemind perspective, yeah. But if you, a linear-time-seeing person the the creature here, then see the same creature in the future (without them physically traveling to the future and "waiting it out" instead) you normally say that time passed and the thing got old/ancient
TLDR: the body gets older but not the mind, you're defining the ancient title by the mind and I by the body. Perspective

Good thing I made a tldr, I wrote too much again...

[stray herald]

how many daxes are out there

currently

[opaque zenith]

Only 2 that we known of

Could have more in cryo or even stranded in Tau but that's my own speculation

Oh, if you still consider Umbra a Dax there's that too. Or if you're more strict, Varzia is a former Dax, so only one, or none in realspace since Teshin is in duviri

[pale cedar]

Teshin is also a former Dax

There's also Dagath

[stray herald]

how old was teshin before he was sent to duviri

[opaque zenith]

Sure the empire fell, but he still consider himself one as for the war within and never said otherwise

[fast dew]

He wasn't in cryo :^)

[pale cedar]

The difference is

Teshin had someone to follow
Varzia did not

[opaque zenith]

No idea, couple thousand since he remember things like serving the empire, yuvans, lunaro, the conclave, etc

[pale cedar]

Once Teshin lost the person with Kuva to follow he stopped being a Dax

Now he's Dax in just words

Thus a former Dax

[lean garden]

like the leg bones of a whale! Vestigial organs!

[opaque zenith]

You can use that argument for Vice-regent-yada-yada Roathe too, he'll try to kill you but yeah, after the fall it's essentialy just a title that you chose or not to have it

[opaque zenith]

An honoria, by ingame terms

[pale cedar]

Pretty much

Even the Orokin that are alive since Orokin isn't a race aren't really Orokin anymore

Orokin name aint worth anything anymore

[proven spire]

It’s funny that roathe awards us with orokin military ranks

We are now roathe’s ensign

[restive river]

Idk if anyone mentioned it but “embrace us” was in an On-Lyne song and I wanna say some other infested say it too

[restive river]

It’s funny he, out of all the protos, is the first to talk to the Operator

[pale cedar]

Despite the fact Operator couldn't even enter

[restive river]

Even funnier that the Operator then can not talk to him

[restive river]

Yup lol
Unless you sneak in

But even if you do they only speak to the frame and not Operator
Reverse Little Duck

Cool they have that check though, maybe exists to prevent the dating lines even though they’ll always say the goodbye line

Actually
When you could have Operator in the mall for that brief window did the same thing occur?

[pale cedar]

They should finally allow Operator to date someone

[restive river]

Minorly separate but does any character have different lines depending on which one you are? Operator and Drifter?

[restive river]

No… they
Are a child

Be friends with, yes
Full on date, no

[pale cedar]

Children dating children exists

[restive river]

Yeah but I don’t think DE really wants to showcase that

And the only way it’d really work is if it’s an operator dating another operator

Which is a canon thing iirc
Child marriage
Which is. I do not like those words next to eachother.

[pale cedar]

They did have that time before Drifter when 2 actually got married

[restive river]

Beat ya to it

Nuptia

[pale cedar]

Weird but it exists

[restive river]

Very very weird

I wanna say that predates second dream but I am unsure

Regardless I do not think DE wants to showcase that for the Operator when the Drifter is right there
Closest we get is the platonic ceremony with Adis
Perhaps they will become close friends with whatever Sentient is the same type as him

[pale cedar]

Adis revived for dating when?

[restive river]

No

Let’s not do that

[proven spire]

Roathe adding more details to the ensign medal everytime we do something cool

[restive river]

Their relationship was very platonic and every time I see someone say it was romantic I grow more exhausted.

[proven spire]

Ok so for not getting hit while fighting a technocyte coda stage attack i add an additional flower petal to thee

[restive river]

Yes children can feel things, teens date
Doesn’t mean it needs to be showcased here, especially when we have a whole dating sim already

Best you will ever get is your operator and another fellow tenno, irl to in game

[pale cedar]

I find it odd how Adis watched a Sentient get killed got upset we went to him and said want to kill and issue resolved

[restive river]

Does he ever talk about what he thinks about the boyband and the coda :?

[proven spire]

Here is your reward for completing netracells with all keyglyphs equipped and now i shall drape you in silk

[restive river]

I think he understood the situation to some extent and valued our friendship a lot which is very evident since
We stay friends til the end

I love that rather than another secret fight we got 3 unique fights and a big checklist of “endgame” content

[pale cedar]

Lore is the real endgame trust

[restive river]

Oh it is

Reading comprehension is the most difficult thing in the game

[pale cedar]

Roathe is DE’s venting tool and I'm all for it

[restive river]

In reality ofc we have every type of “endgame” for every type of player
New decor will always give the ikeaframe folk more to do
More fashion for the fashionframers
More lore for us lore enjoyers
Harder gameplay for the cracked insane people

I’m sure there’s more too

There is no singular “endgame” and thus no true endgame at all

Though I do like what I heard once that the true endgame is just the freedom to do
Any of this

Got enough resources to do whatever
Have enough knowledge to know the story or how the game works

[restive river]

I’m curious which of his theories they’ll explore if any

They’ve told us we will not get Wally’s true origins but the fact we have this is likely the closest we will get

Especially since the void war arc could end this year, it really just depends on what’s in Tau

[waxen mesa]

is there a lore reason why the syndicates attack us? Like is it just supposed to a message? are they actually trying to kill us?

[restive river]

Old Peace dropped the start of the Tau Arc on us while being part of the Void War Arc so I’m sure we nay be near the end

[pale cedar]

I feel this arc won't end at Tau

[waxen mesa]

are the syndicates at war?

[restive river]

It really depends

[restive river]

They all coexist in relays so no
I think it’s more so about sending a message

[pale cedar]

Defeating Wally isn't as simple as defeating Ballas

[waxen mesa]

can we even defeat wally?

[restive river]

I’d have to say it’s somewhat gameplay > lore since Suda’s practically a pacifist

[restive river]

Probably not in the kill kinda way

[pale cedar]

Defeat, yes
Kill, probably not

[waxen mesa]

i guess the only known weakness to the indifference is love and radiation

not too sure what the latter implies

[restive river]

Radiation for the murmur

Love for him

[waxen mesa]

are the murmur not him

[restive river]

The murmur is him ofc but more like
Sapient skin flakes

The fragmented are heralds from the stars he fell
Aka
Dealbreakers.

[waxen mesa]

do we know for sure that the weaknesses don't work vise versa

[pale cedar]

We have been defeating Wally in each update but it doesn't kill him

[restive river]

Alt versions of us and really anyone who’s crossed him
Some might be Baros

[waxen mesa]

ok an even dumber question popped into my head. one probably out of the scope of this channel

[restive river]

The Murmur is the closest we have to a dedicated physical form so we can’t test radiation
But love was likely part of what snapped the strand of khra after we beat down the fragmented in whispers

[waxen mesa]

Does our deal with Wally stand up legally or would it be considered a deal made under duress

[hazy prism]

Anyone got theories to what
"We end as we began" could entail?
Like "began" from Entrati entering the void or Operator's deal with Wally

[restive river]

He added more details randomly and now complains we broke a deal so
I don’t think it holds up

[restive river]

He talks about it but we don’t really have a clear idea iirc

We really just do not know what bro is up to

[waxen mesa]

Even if we assume you can't prove he made the parents go mad. It was hardly an ideal time to make a deal when our only other option was "die in the void"

[restive river]

Why did he make the protos?
We don’t know lmao

[restive river]

He is very likely what made them mad and caused the incident
He was in the engine room that day and all pieces of him he controls to some extent

Hence why the Angels are likely part of his army, he made them in a way

We know he can speak and even move the fingers too
And he speaks to us constantly through the piece we carry

[pale cedar]

Wally stop talking to yourself

[waxen mesa]

actually? of course he did it

legally? is there proof?

[restive river]

Briefly back to how we defeat him
Neci
He is presently very attached to her and while she’s mostly hollow she’s not all gone
She has love in her heart.

[fast dew]

I like to think its related to the Ouroborus, given its history in alchemy
-# I think

[restive river]

I don’t think we can really prove that unfortunately
But it makes sense for his actions

The Zariman incident was an experiment to him so

[fast dew]

Drifter says as such iirc and in the context of the real world, thats pretty damning

[restive river]

Make the adults feral
Give the kids powers
Watch what happens
And he gets to make a deal

[fast dew]

Its not the first time Wally used parental connections.

[restive river]

The result is us and the Zariman being the anomaly that it now is

[waxen mesa]

Eye witnesses are actually the weakest form of evidence

[restive river]

They are somewhat of an unreliable narrator but it does line up (and why else would they tell us that unless they challenge it later)

[restive river]

They were also a scared child

[waxen mesa]

any lawyer worth their weight would say the Drifter was making assumptions

[fast dew]

Its one of his hallmarks, the usage of close family member's nickname

.. do you know that "legal proof" isnt a real thing

[waxen mesa]

Rell could certainly testify but he's uh....yeah I don't think Rell is making it to court

[fast dew]

Do you know the burden of proof changes

[restive river]

We know the void can just make people go crazy but
Not like this, not this fast

[pale cedar]

This case wouldn't even make it to court tbh

[fast dew]

You... don't. Need the person to testify? 😭

[restive river]

We cannot legally prove Wally is behind the incident but considering we tried to void jump using his finger and the ship suddenly crashed and oop all these new issues started immediately
Yeah nah he did it officer

[fast dew]

Sorry youve activated the random time i fixated at law for some reason

[waxen mesa]

uh? yes? you do? a person has to be present and alive to testify

[fast dew]

The burden of proof changes.

[fast dew]

... dude. Ive had my statement as testimonial. You do not need to be there.

[waxen mesa]

Rell can't even give a statement

any statement made on Rell's behalf would be hearsay at this point

[restive river]

It’s also good to note on which adults went insane, we know it wasn’t only parents but it was all parents
Considering Wally’s whole thing of utilizing childhood nicknames

[fast dew]

Mkay.

[waxen mesa]

"Rell said that..." won't hold up in court

[restive river]

We can use everything he’s said

[waxen mesa]

hearsay

[restive river]

In theory most of what we do could be recorded or perfectly recounted by Ordis so
No
Not hearsay.

[pale cedar]

Who needs Rell when we have Albrecht?

[silk atlas]

...We have the Holdfasts lol

[restive river]

Legally Wally would absolutely be going to jail

[waxen mesa]

if Ordis has recordings then use we could use the recordings of Chains of Harrow as proof

[fast dew]

Let me lay it out for you.

1. You do not need to be alive at a court case to have a form of testimonial. That is how a lot of murder cases go.

2. You do not always need to have absolute proof. The burden of proof changes depending on the court type.

3. And yes, a person absolutely could say that "he said this" and it would be counted as long as theres evidence of the thing being implied.

Within a shadow of doubt only falls towards criminal cases.

[restive river]

Okay this brings up a good question and I may just he ignorant here but
If we brought Wally to trial which legal system are we using

[pale cedar]

Wally isn't visibly shown in CoH tbh and it would be marked as Void madness or something

[waxen mesa]

it'd be wild if we were all arguing about different legal systems

[restive river]

I mean we could even use the Dark Refractory as proof

Heck that’s what replaying quests is now

[fast dew]

Well, given that was criminal court as a victim, yeah id say criminal.

The other type is stuff like civil. That just needs to be more than likely.

[fast dew]

Im running on the Australian system lmao

[waxen mesa]

Objection! Statements from a Roathe, Marie, and Lyon show that the Dark Refractory can produce altered memories

[restive river]

Altered to a point, we can’t change what happened in the Old Peace and Roathe’s situation is different due to him not being able to plug in directly

While some alterations appear in Old Peace they ultimately change nothing

[fast dew]

Counter argument, altered memories cannot occur without external change, so a private viewing of the memories, which is fully accessible given how loid can tell what we are seeing

[hazy prism]

Why does this chat feel like somebody used Higuruma's cursed technique on Wally

[restive river]

If Wally got a lawyer who’d defend him?

[fast dew]

As long as theres not someone inside the pool, it should be untainted.

[waxen mesa]

a lawyer with suspiciously black eyes

[restive river]

And we know they can just watch the memories sooo

[waxen mesa]

or he could just defend himself

[hazy prism]

Wally would 100% represent themself

[restive river]

Oh so he’s defending himself which is never a good idea

Unless you’re like
A lawyer yourself maybe ig

[fast dew]

Still a bad idea tbh

[restive river]

Who’s even the jury?
The judge?
We need impartial parties here people