lore-discussion

[thick yacht]

All that land and wonder

The floors are all made of wood or marble

[lean garden]

so apocryphal then

[torpid quiver]

Wtf is this from

[fast dew]

... Wikipedia

I literally linked it

[lean garden]

because the catholics use the same main 66 books, with apocrypha

[thick yacht]

Well I mean I think they should GO places

[latent ice]

I would love to walk around the Volkshalle if it was ever built.

[thick yacht]

But they don’t have to be limited or brutalist

[fast dew]

I was autism'd over angels for a while bcs of doom

[thick yacht]

Like think about it

Humanity is so powerful, so very mighty and influential

[torpid quiver]

I have no idea where the hell this version is from but ive always been taught that archangels are the first angels every created and are considered the single most powerful beings next to God himself

[thick yacht]

We rule the world in its entirety, the first species to ever do so with such complete mastery

[ashen pulsar]

I would love to see what the orokin built when they actually wanted practicality. what did homes and shops and actual life in the empire look like?

[thick yacht]

Why not show it

[fast dew]

Whelp, maybe this is just someone telling you wrong information lol

Or maybe the church specifically thought that

[thick yacht]

Why should we not show our dominion over the world

[latent ice]

Do we even get any extensive knowledge into civilian life

[silk atlas]

Not really

[ashen pulsar]

no

[latent ice]

I promise the Grineer are basically sub-humans whilst Cetus are pure homo sapiens.

[fast dew]

I mean, the entrati are civilians to some degree

Cept for father

[latent ice]

Corpus are either grunts, debt slaves, or Corporate Council members

[lean garden]

taught by whom lol

[ashen pulsar]

I think without something valuable being conveyed, art isn't that good.

[torpid quiver]

Well Archangel the name itself Arch means like first, Arch bishop and all that, so sure theyre "lower" on the hierarchy but the archangels are literally the first beings ever made. God damn lucifer is an archangel and he is considered God's first every creation in everything ive ever read about

[fast dew]

Lucifer was a seraph wasn't he?

[silk atlas]

Because at lot of people would argue the fact that "dominance" is exactly the kind of arrogance that leads to many of the issues people have with our society or our views on the world with which we take control, and such, those people don't deserve to live like that.

[latent ice]

In fact, why are the Corpus people even fighting, do they do it out of the profit religion thing, or are they also under debt slavery?

[ashen pulsar]

the orokin didn't have substance to their art and architecture. it was extravagant nonsense.

[latent ice]

Like is the Corpus profit religion something esoteric or nah?

[thick yacht]

It is valuable:, we show our power when we can build such structures, our glory when they stand tall and mighty or expansive, and our excess when we enshrine them in precious materials. It is a way, in truth, to say “look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair”

Obviously humanity has a long way before we can do this everywhere

But one day, we may be able to.

[latent ice]

You sound either drunk or drugged or both

[torpid quiver]

"In many offshoots of Judaism, with the oldest text coming from Enoch 1, the highest ranking angels such as Michael, Raphael, Gabriel and Uriel, who are usually referred to as archangels in English"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archangel

Anyway this all stemmed from uriel talk so

[ashen pulsar]

who are the halls of the void for?

[torpid quiver]

Guess whatever crap they were spewing when I was going to church was wrong

[fast dew]

Ah so Judaism, different sect to what I was referring to

[thick yacht]

I am drunk on imagination, my friend

I am drunk on the belief in humanity to be wonderful and beautiful

[torpid quiver]

It says catholic?!?

[fast dew]

Nothing wrong with that, I just know a lot cus hehe doom

[latent ice]

I just don't take meds so I can think crazy shit.

[torpid quiver]

"In the catholic hierarchy of angels" where are you seeing Judaism mentioned??

[latent ice]

Isn't Christianity a Jewish offshoot?

[thick yacht]

I spent most of the day painting

[torpid quiver]

Literally everything is technically

[fast dew]

"In many offshoots of Judaism, with the oldest text coming from Enoch 1, the highest ranking angels such as Michael, Raphael, Gabriel and Uriel, who are usually referred to as archangels in English"

Your excerpt has jt has Judaism 😭

[thick yacht]

Believe it or not

[silk atlas]

They only do it "everywhere" in Orokin society because they had more space to flaunt their excessive wealth over the have-nots. There were still MANY people who worked as a lowly normal person in Orokin society, which some would argue is reason enough that no one deserves such kind of extravagance until everyone's basic stuff is covered, which has been a problem everstanding.

[torpid quiver]

Catholicism is an offshoots of Judaism and Christianity is an offshoots of Catholicism

[thick yacht]

Of course. Hierarchy of needs and all that

[latent ice]

I wonder if Corpus is also an offshoot of Judaism

[torpid quiver]

They all basically say the same thing

[fast dew]

It kinda just gets watered down each offshoot

[thick yacht]

But I’m saying when we have the ability, why not do it?

[fast dew]

Wonder if Albrecht likes burgers..

[torpid quiver]

Watered down but at the end of the day its the same events, God makes the archangels, the first angels hence their names being ARCHangels, then he makes the others then humanity, lucifer rebels and Michael casts him down yadayada

[ashen pulsar]

who are the ones who see the work and feel that they are the ones controlling the world? cuz when I look at those giant gold arcs of waste, I'm not awed at all.

[fast dew]

This might just be different sects 😭

[torpid quiver]

Fun fact all the archangels original had AEL in their names, one of lucifers names was Samael

[fast dew]

I was personally evangelical but my research around it is primarily based on catholic ideas as thats where people usually inspire it from

[fast dew]

I knew this bcs of guess what doom

Hehe

[torpid quiver]

Okay i love you man but doom is not a good thing to base your religious historical info on

[fast dew]

Nothing pissed me off more to see seraphim used as singular

[ashen pulsar]

I see orokin waste, spending money and effort and lives to make pointless structures with no meaning other than "look at how strong we are"

[fast dew]

Oh no, not that, just the research for it

Doom has huge inspirations from it

[torpid quiver]

Im personally atheist but I did study religion and its history

Seraphim are super important because theyre like your healers and generals

People forget angels are technically soldiers

[fast dew]

Albeit they do uh. Put those inspirations into the stand in for a fascist regime

[torpid quiver]

They have ranks and a hierarchy

[fast dew]

What i was meaning about that, was that one seraph is called Samur/Samuel, and is very much a luciferean character

In doom 😭

[torpid quiver]

So to my knowledge archangels though are considered low ranking are very much not really following any orders they kinda do their own thing

Azrael, angel of death for example

Raphael healing and protection

[fast dew]

I really need to get back into theology and religious studies, but literally everytime I find a class its just.

[stiff beacon]

samael

[fast dew]

Oh this is just going to church

[torpid quiver]

You really could make a warframe of every archangel and itd be sick

[fast dew]

Yk? Its like.. no i dont believe i just want to know the story like a book

[stiff beacon]

aka lucifer according to dc comics

[torpid quiver]

To my knowledge all the archangels are really just in their own league even though theyre technically lower than a seraphim

[iron tiger]

I believe high and low in rank when it comes to angelology is very literal higher angels are closer to god

It doesn’t have to do with power

[hazy prism]

i just realised what the worst case scenario for Adis could be now
What if we went to Tau and we find an Archon made with the remains of Adis

[fast dew]

Mhm, Samuel hayden was seemingly directly inspired by him. WHICH IS MORE PROOF TO IDIOTS WHO THINK THE SAMUEL HAYDEN IS THE SERAPHIM REVEAL WAS A RETCON WASNT A RETCON.

[torpid quiver]

Like um, what was his name, the angel who was gods messenger

[lean garden]

its not the ael, its just the el they share

[fast dew]

ITS NOT A RETCON IF IT WAS PLANNED FROM THE START

[lean garden]

gabby gab

[fast dew]

https://tenor.com/view/rage-gif-24341837

[lean garden]

yesnt? none of the cannonical texts really give us angel powerscaling LOL

[stiff beacon]

i mean they sound exactly the same so idk how they couldnt draw a connection to both

[torpid quiver]

I thought it was Joshua?

[lean garden]

we just know that the seraphim are the ones floating next to God going "holy holy holy"

[fast dew]

These are doom fans. Half of them are illiterate.

[lean garden]

Joshua is a dude

[fast dew]

One quarter can read, but only for coding

[torpid quiver]

Is there not an angel name Joshua hold on

[stiff beacon]

so are half of warframes apparently

[fast dew]

An eighth can read the lore but those are the powerscalers

I can continue.

[torpid quiver]

No im thinking of the metatron. No he's not a transformer he's the scribe of god

Goofy name but he's like gods right hand essentially

[fast dew]

https://tenor.com/view/gato-anotado-noted-noted-gato-noted-cat-gif-15232071836705052766

[torpid quiver]

Essentially despite seraphim being closest to him. The hierarchy is basically God, Metatron, Michael, and then everyone else lol

[fast dew]

Least you guys hopefully dont have your MC actually just mucking dying on screen in a cutscene and people going "nuh uh he was asleep"

[torpid quiver]

Now warframe lore

[fast dew]

Actually no you guys do now

[torpid quiver]

If uriel is the devil frame do we get an angel frame next

[fast dew]

Jade

[stiff beacon]

jade

[hazy prism]

we sort of have 1 in jade

[torpid quiver]

Shit yeah

[fast dew]

She's based on a seraph, even down to the fire procs

[torpid quiver]

Then what we need an archangel frame next i guess

[fast dew]

6 wings, related to fire. Pretty clear its a seraph she's based on

[torpid quiver]

Anyone want a Michael frame lol

[fast dew]

I got Gabriel

[torpid quiver]

Wtf does Zachariah do i cant even remember what he's the angel of

[hazy prism]

Gabriel frame would be the playable stalker

[fast dew]

Gabriel

[hazy prism]

it's funny cause i'm pretty sure Uriel is the name of an angel, but it was never used for a fallen angel/devil so take of that what you will

[lean garden]

Zachariah is also a dude no?

[torpid quiver]

My mom used to make me sing a bunch of Bible songs and this dude named Zachariah is mentioned in it when naming angels so I have no idea what he is

I was a kid so I dont remember

[lean garden]

Zachariah is like John the baptist's dad no?

[torpid quiver]

I remember Luke and Zachariah and then the song fades from my memory

[stiff beacon]

"machine im a single father now"

[hazy prism]

Zachariah is just a dude, it's confusing sometimes cause you get Angel names that have been adopted as normal names alot now

[lean garden]

luke is also NOT an angel

also just a dude

[torpid quiver]

Mind you my mom's religion is an offshoot of Christianity so some of my early memories of this stuff is fuzzy

I mainly studied the history of religion itself

Where it came from and such

[fast dew]

I mean considering what I was drawing behind there, someone isn't being a single father for much longer
-# im drawing Albrecht n loid for a family portrait-

[torpid quiver]

Im like an egyptologist for Catholicism

WAIT

Malachi

I remember a malachi mentioned

[lean garden]

also a dude

from the Book of Esther

esthers uncle

[torpid quiver]

Because the song literally ended with "and malachi"

[fast dew]

Holy shit bau how do you know this all?

[hazy prism]

The bible doesn't actually mention that many angels, alot of angels were sort of added in later

[lean garden]

I am a religious man lol

[torpid quiver]

Maybe it was naming prophets i truly cannot remember the full song

[lean garden]

sounds like "dudes in the bible" the song

[torpid quiver]

Because I remember it started with michael and the archangels that all ended with el, then a bunch of other names I guess kid me always thought were angels too

[lean garden]

the significance of all the angel names ending with el, is the same significance why daniel ends with el

which is el is just God's name

[fast dew]

Ang-el

[lean garden]

(one of many lol)

[torpid quiver]

Its also just how names were back in the day

[lean garden]

so like emmanuel

[fast dew]

HEY THATS A DUDE FROM DAFT PUNK-

[lean garden]

emmanu-el

God with us

[torpid quiver]

Hebrew is/was a weird language dude

[fast dew]

Oh neat to know

[hazy prism]

Grend el /s

[torpid quiver]

Oh good catch zwyn yeah

[fast dew]

Ur mum-el

[torpid quiver]

Grendel

[stiff beacon]

yeshua = oily josh

[torpid quiver]

Isn't grendel like the biblical devourer of something, descendant from cain

[lean garden]

Yeshua, which short for Yehoshua which is Yahweh (YHWH) saves

which is very on the nose naming

[torpid quiver]

Pretty much everything goes back to Islam and Judaism lol

[stiff beacon]

hes from beowulf

[hazy prism]

Grendel is from an old english poem, beowulf, so it's not actually hebrew, so more a coincidence
he is said to be a descendant of Cain and a giant

[torpid quiver]

Found it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grendel

[stiff beacon]

except if it comes from anything older

[torpid quiver]

Yup

[stiff beacon]

like the goat greece

[hazy prism]

Hinduism the is the fighting games of religion, cause they keep adding season passes to make the roster bigger

[stiff beacon]

but they never do a balance patch

[hazy prism]

Hinduism doesn't say your god /belief is wrong, they say, ok but how does this powerscale with what we have

[torpid quiver]

Islam was really the first time it was written out, and Judaism was a far more popular version, then the Roman's took Judaism and kinda made Catholicism, which eventually in the united states evolved into Christianity. As my professor would remind us "Christians are Catholics, but Catholics aren't Christians"

This is super simplified and im skipping a bunch of important stuff

But thats the basic idea

[hazy prism]

funny if you told a deeply religious evangelical or protestant that they might actually blow up

[torpid quiver]

Yup lol

Sadly this is factual i did the research it all traces back to the same idea, some guy was born in Nazareth, a miracle child named Jesus who was claimed to be the son of god. He was killed by the romans blah blah we all know the story

Anyway warframe

[hazy prism]

So what, if any, do you think is the Warframe equivalent to Jesus

[torpid quiver]

Seeing as most warframes are coming out with proto counterparts now, other than the mushroom dude, who's next do we think thematically

[hazy prism]

i want more Sol and Lua scripture

[torpid quiver]

Gauss, he can run/walk on water

[hazy prism]

Looking back to Cyte-09, Temple and now Uriel, there is no rhyme or reason tbh
seems like whatever seems cool

[torpid quiver]

I mean other than them

[fast dew]

Mm, until we know the next update, no clue

[torpid quiver]

The first protoframes were like the originals, Excalibur, mag, volt, trinity, and nyx. Then we had saryn frost and nova

[dry timber]

There's a KIM conversation with Eleanor where she mentions this world's equivalent of Jesus

[torpid quiver]

Now we have harrow and wisp

[hazy prism]

I think caliban as a protoframe for a Sentient character might be in the works

[fast dew]

There's no real reason to em

[torpid quiver]

Well there's gotta be some kind of pattern

[hazy prism]

but beyond that, hard to say

[fast dew]

We also are probably done for protos rn

[hazy prism]

do you have any piece of dialogue or what rank convo that is?

[fast dew]

Just look how badly they've fumbled this update's protos

[torpid quiver]

Im really hoping for a voruna proto

[torpid quiver]

Fumbled?!?!?!?!

[fast dew]

Absolutely fumbled.

[torpid quiver]

https://tenor.com/view/meme-skeleton-mf-gif-10470614459478794199

[fast dew]

Have you seen how many typos are in the new chats?

Let alone the whole consent convos

Which can only trigger AFTER you cheat.

[torpid quiver]

It honestly works seeing as these are people fron god knows WHEN, learning to use a computer

[hazy prism]

they're really buggy as well, granted it doesn't help dev team is on break for the holidays, but a combination of timing and seemingly how much more complex it is made it feel worse on launch

[fast dew]

Roathe has them.

[torpid quiver]

I havent encountered any typos if im being honest

[fast dew]

Not to mention the whole RU chatgpt thing

[torpid quiver]

What?

[hazy prism]

is the russian translation chat GPT'd?

[fast dew]

Mhm.

No real fault to DE, but still

[torpid quiver]

Yeah i was gonna say thats the localization team's fault not DE

They need to fire those people lol

[hazy prism]

that's so funny

[fast dew]

Again, consent convos all being very rushed and only working when cheating

The entire kim system is in shambles rn

[torpid quiver]

I honestly have no problems using AI to go over long text lines to fix TYPOS and poor grammar, but only this stuff

[hazy prism]

I wouldn't say shambles, but it feels much rougher than the previous 2 KIM batches

[strange plinth]

the triad piece of the update could've used another month or two i think
the old peace section works fairly well as is, just the one hiccup of like. how tf do we figure out the dark refractory exists

[torpid quiver]

I refuse to cheat and ai myself a written paper

Mind you I was using grammarly and the built in wordx typo fixer long before Ai was really a thing

[hazy prism]

I am of 2 minds about the dark refractory thing, like sure an explanation would be good, but just jumping right into the action felt nice,

[fast dew]

Those are different tbh

[torpid quiver]

So I found it funny when a professor accused me of using AI for cheating and I had to show them word has a built in typo and grammar fixer LMAO

[strange plinth]

1 email could solve that piece anyway tbh

[fast dew]

But yeah

Feels pretty fumbled

[torpid quiver]

It also sucks that the way I write is super generic and professional since this was a college paper. So I often do have to literally show the replay of my typing out the paper in word to prove I don't use AI which is funny but tedious

[lean garden]

My condolences, my writing and topics are too full of whimsy to be written by a bot

[fast dew]

I thankfully don't have an art style that ai particularly likes, so I've never needed to prove it

[torpid quiver]

Okay not fumbled. More like a rough start. Uriel is still great, I love the writing with roathe and Marie and lyon. But they're not the main focus of the update for me, to me its the old peace quest, its story and the dark refractory

Now I do hope early next year they expand on it because this is most definitely not enough to keep me from hibernation away from warframe till the next update lol

[hazy prism]

I expect the devil's triad KIM's will feel much better after a hotfix or 2, but that's after they start working again

[torpid quiver]

Im kinda like a bear when it comes to warframe

I play for every update, big updates I play the most, then I hibernate

Anyway ROATHE

That man

[hazy prism]

I think warframe as a game does this very naturally, everyone i know who plays warframe for over a year does this

[torpid quiver]

Where is his freaky ass arm

[fast dew]

Choice he didn't take for some reason

[torpid quiver]

Or since he was seemingly a soldier he chose not to get one for a tactical reason

[fast dew]

Eh

[lean garden]

given how competent he is I imagine the uneven arms would be detrimental to him fighting on the field

[fast dew]

Vilcor was also a fighter (specifically a railjack pilot), and he had one

[hazy prism]

maybe he never did the trend and since he was in the field and body hopping on the fly in battlefield when he got really injured it never stuck

[torpid quiver]

I do love seeing some people give their operators orokin Grey and blue skin

Kinda gives an idea some tenno may have been orokin children

Really fun idea to me

[hazy prism]

well if his railjack was anything like ours, a long arm wouldn't be as detrimental, Roathe seemingly does fight in the frontline with his soldiers, so it also could be so he wouldn't be as indentifiable by enemy snipers

like making your high ranking officers too obvious is a geniune problem in wars

[torpid quiver]

Roathe was likely, though an ass by all accounts, an honorable man when it comes to combat

He fought alongside his soldier's from what i can gather

And was genuinely a good tactical mind

[fast dew]

Well, Nihil also fights and he has one? Ballas too, Niktoh also had one.

[torpid quiver]

Ballas didn't seemingly fight in the Frontline though

His armor seemed more ceremonial in nature

[fast dew]

He still had a sword, his specific sword, for killing sentients

[torpid quiver]

True

Anyway. Is uriel prime possible, roathe did mention he knew the first person who became uriel

[fast dew]

... he literally said it was uriel prime he knew

[torpid quiver]

Main question, what would he look like

[torpid quiver]

I know, im saying do you think we'll actually ever get him

You dont have to be condescending

[lean garden]

I think the main diff is that roathe is front line

nihil does his jig and a dance as an executioner

but roathe actually fight fights

[torpid quiver]

Roathe is always ready to throw down

BTW, is the name roathe in the Bible at all just curious

Since he's uriels proto

[hazy prism]

nope, it isn't biblical

[torpid quiver]

Darn

Thought I had something

[hazy prism]

could be "Roathe" is a variant of "Rothe", a German surname which means "red"

he's very Red in his Carnus armor

[stiff fable]

Uriel isn't a Biblical angel either. The three angels in the Bible are Michael, Gabriel and Raphael.

[torpid quiver]

We had a whole conversation about angels like 2 hours ago. Uriel is an angel here's the link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uriel#:~:text=Uriel means "God is my,Angels Church%2C Kingsland%2C Herefordshire.

[brittle siren]

sorry for reply old msg, but this is just 1 variant, iirc there is more variant to ability menu theme

[hazy prism]

Uriel is an angel, but not mentioned in the bible itself, i think they were mentioned in the Torah?

[stiff fable]

But not a Biblical angel

[torpid quiver]

Theyre all the same book just a little different anyway

Again we went over this and its late so im no gonna get into it again

[stiff fable]

Christian mystic tradition

[torpid quiver]

Im turning off notifs good night

[wind ruin]

I had a response, but I'm not posting it. I just suggest you look at the history of the Bible if you haven't before and how it came to be in the forms it has today.

[stiff fable]

I'd recommend the same to you

[wind ruin]

Any good references?

DM if you like.

[stiff fable]

Are you looking for biblical history, Old Testament studies or stuff about Uriel specifically?

[brittle siren]

knowing Orokin, they would mock angels name by using it in a demon frame

[stiff fable]

Well, regardless, Dale Martin and Joel Baden both teach/taught at Yale and recorded their lectures

[wind ruin]

Biblical history, for the most part. How the modern bible was assembled, why some testaments were chosen and others left out. Because very little writing actually survives from the first decades CE.

[stiff fable]

I'd start with them

[nimble copper]

question, im sorry, im new to the game. are warframes and tenno separate beings? are tenno possessing warframes? are warframes people? sorry if these are already answered later in the main questline i just haven't really been told the difference yet in-game and im wondering if i was already supposed to know that or not

[stiff fable]

Don't worry about it

[strange plinth]

answered in the second dream and the sacrifice

[stiff fable]

You'll get answers before advancing much further

[nimble copper]

okay, thank you !!!

[stiff fable]

Search YouTube for "Introduction to New Testament (RLST 152)" and watch the whole series, it's basically exactly that

[wind ruin]

Thank you.

[lean garden]

not torah, its apocrypha

[stiff fable]

I didn't know this but apparently he's canonical in the Eastern Orthodox tradition, which is wild

[lean garden]

both christian and catholic bibles keep most of the torah, its just that the catholic ones add a chunky extra bunch of books in the old testament

[hazy prism]

it's funny cause going to sunday school, we didn't really care about angels as much as we did about the prophets, so growing up and finding out their is like an pokedex of angels was always wild

my priest was holding back the good lore 😔

[stiff fable]

Honestly yeah it's super wild

Like, did you know that Buddha is a Catholic saint

[hazy prism]

https://tenor.com/view/blinking-eyes-white-guy-blinking-meme-what-huh-gif-26334322

[stiff fable]

Stories about Siddhartha traveled on the Silk Road and made it to Rome

Where he was eventually canonized as a saint

[hazy prism]

oh, that's actually kind of wholesome

[stiff fable]

But multiple language barriers had turned "bodhisattva" into "Iosephat"

So, Saint Josaphat is Gautama Buddha

[proper barn]

Beavers are a fish

Cuz a pope wanted to eat a beaver.

Very funny.

[hazy prism]

oh that i heard of bfore

[proper barn]

What else

We have "The universal friend." A priest that didn't like to be called he/him or she/her.

And landed on universal friend.

[lean garden]

the funniest thing in Catholic/Christian history to me is that one dude nailing his thesis on a door caused the biggest split in the church

same dudes name would echo to so many different places LOL

which marie and lyon might have heard of it if it happened in the wf timeline

[stiff fable]

honestly, I like the Anglican Church happening because the King of England wanted a divorce

[thick yacht]

The Tenno are the last best hope for humanity

[manic rover]

Ok so Rell didn't do the transference loop on HIS Harrow alone.. BUT EVERY SINGLE HARROW IN EXISTENCE

Lyon had an imaginary best friend

Interesting

[lean garden]

I mean, its just his harrow

its just also that all harrows are technically connected via the infestation

[manic rover]

Fair point.

[proven spire]

the indifference has existed throughout all of time because of eternalism

who's to say that the infestation also hasn't

[stiff fable]

The infestation claims that's how it works, at least

[proven spire]

quantum superposition and predestination are opposing concepts but it is somewhow what's happened here right

[stiff fable]

It's more like, every possibility can happen and the infestation simultaneously lives in every one of those possibilities

[proven spire]

like the way i understand it, since the indifference and the infestation exist in the future, and eternalism states that past present and future all exist simultaneously, they now also exist in the past

[stiff fable]

But they don't know which one of those possibilities they're in

[proven spire]

and they can travel to or exist simultaneously in the past present and future all at once

[stiff fable]

not exactly travel to so much as access memories from?

[proven spire]

yeah but to access the memories it has to exist in the past first right

like to find a conduit in the past to transfer their consciousness into

[stiff fable]

right, it only can touch what it can touch

[proven spire]

so, quantum superposition

[stiff fable]

More hivemind?

[proven spire]

i think it's just one hivemind that travels within the whole timeline

[lean garden]

woah there I don't think entrati said anything about pre-destination

[proven spire]

yes, he did not say anything about predestination that we know of

[thick yacht]

What if the Orokin are older than we thought

[lean garden]

wait so why did you bring it up

[thick yacht]

Humanity may have existed as early as 70 million years ago

[proven spire]

to present an opposing concept to superposition and eternalism

and to maybe explore some possibilities

[lean garden]

Im confused, if youre only bringing it up as a contrast, why is it part of "what happened here"

[proven spire]

hear me out but i'm thinking of a super crazy thing here

predestination but in reverse lmao because of eternalism

[strange plinth]

what

[proven spire]

it's not exactly predestination per se

[thick yacht]

I do need to pose a question though

[proven spire]

since the indifference exists in the future, and past present and future all exist at once, then it now also exists in the past

[thick yacht]

Do we really think 10,000 or so years is enough time to colonize the solar system

It took humans 2 million years to figure out farming

[lean garden]

youre gonna have to explain

[thick yacht]

[strange plinth]

i'm struggling to see how predestination could even be in reverse
the whole point is that its already determined

[lean garden]

honestly yea

[proven spire]

since the indifference exists in the future, and past present and future all exist at once, then it now also exists in the past

[thick yacht]

[lean garden]

like thats why we have people like ghandi complain about the train

the rate of human progress is exponential

[thick yacht]

[lean garden]

because humans are really good and figuring out how to be fast

like everything is really about being faster and faster

optimise this to be faster, make chips that can think faster, find a way to go from A to B faster

[thick yacht]

True

But the rate of progress seems to have been very, very slow up until the last what… 500 years?

Again, two million years just to learn to plant crops

Granted those weren’t Homo sapiens

But then within 10,000 years of 1999, humans have established a solar empire

[stiff fable]

speed of progress is limited by the speed of communication

[lean garden]

like I said, exponential

[lean garden]

ok back to this

I wouldnt call it reverse predestination

I think its easier to call it like how entrati did

polluting the timeline

but in a similar vein, I dont think it "exists" in the past

theres a "present" indifference running around

and my bet that even as it spreads around the timeline, its only as "present" as the one we see

which is to say, the bih chasing entrati is just running about

[proven spire]

that's what i'm saying, it's only one instance of the indifference traveling throughout the entire timeline

[lean garden]

and what looks to be it in the past is just modern wally

[stiff fable]

probably. Wally's locked to cause and effect like the rest of us right now

That's why he needs the Murmur and can't just invade the entire timeline simultaneously

[proven spire]

what is modern wally?

what are these concepts even?

our actions in the future has also affected the past

[hybrid silo]

Wait Albrecht had a wife?

[fast dew]

An arranged marriage.

[hybrid silo]

In my old man yaoi game?!?!

[fast dew]

Or, so it seems. He was "given" a woman to marry

[lean garden]

like uuuuh, have you ever played 5D chess with multiversal timetravel?

[proven spire]

what multiverse?

[lean garden]

like have you ever played the game

theres a function in the game that exactly explains what Im trying to say

[proven spire]

it's one whole timeline where things in it change all the time because all points exist simultaneously

[hollow siren]

"5D Chess With Multiversal Timetravel" is the name of a game

[proven spire]

oh haha, no i haven't played that one

[lean garden]

what nick said

dang this is going to be a smidgen tougher

in essence, disregard linear time

the present is wherever the front running pieces push it to

albrecht and wally are the front running pieces

[proven spire]

that's absolute presentism

[lean garden]

no no no

for it to work as such it requires block time

past present future all real

[proven spire]

yes that's eternalism

[lean garden]

but the Present™ is where albrecht and wally push it to

[lean garden]

so every time we see wally and albrecht its the Present™

even if its in the past

[proven spire]

yes that what i'm saying

[lean garden]

which is what I mean by modern wally

[hollow siren]

yeah Void seems to work a lot on causality rather than chronologicality (is that a word)

[fast dew]

Time is relative or whatever

[hollow siren]

like even if we opened a Void Gate in 1999 and managed to meet Wally there, Albrecht is still the first to have met him

[strange plinth]

if it isn't, it still makes sense in context

[proven spire]

because it already happened in events before we went to 1999

so now that event is in the past even if we are into another previous point in the timeline

[hollow siren]

causal untime vs. chronological time

[proven spire]

and our traveling into the past is now the present

we are simply just in another frame of time within the timeline but our actions are the present

the indifference coming into being by albrecht is a past event that took place in a very future year and traveling to 1999 is a present action

[lean garden]

see you can play 5D Chess with Multiversal Time Travel

[proven spire]

and so, in order for Wally to affect Lyon's childhood which was way before anything else, Wally's creation in the far future has now also affected the past where Lyon resides in

[lean garden]

mhmm, because present wally is mucking about in the past which is the Present™

which is why also you have the convo with lyon about how all of a sudden ||[consequences of Chains of Harrow] struck him and he feels even more alone||

[proven spire]

Absolute Presentism states that everything before the present ceases to exist and there is only one present

Eternalism states that past, present, and future all exist simultaneously and we can move between different frames of time

[proven spire]

but Lyon's childhood isn't the Present™

[lean garden]

it was the Present™ when wally did a driveby

[proven spire]

meaning that his creation in the future has also affected events even deeper into the past

and my thoughts were what if the infestation is the same thing

[lean garden]

only as far as wally has moved

[proven spire]

it wasn't a simple driveby where he just did a little thing and ran

it now exists throughout all of time

so what if the infestation can do the same?

[stiff fable]

they just branch the timeline

Between the old "didn't do" and the new "did do"

[proven spire]

i think that after we defeat wally in the present action, it will be as if it did not exist at all

[stiff fable]

What does update is the hivemind's awareness of the new and old timeline

I imagine you're right, except that the Murmur are a permanent part of the game

[strange plinth]

and depending on how we do it, major grandfather paradox

[proven spire]

the murmur are the thing that limits the indifference

soooo reverse predestination anyone?

[stiff fable]

other way around, the Murmur are how it gets around its limitations

[proven spire]

it will be erased from the entire timeline, poof never existed at all

[lean garden]

I don't think that will be the case

[proven spire]

but somehow, it's actions will still persist see

isn't that what eternalism is?

[lean garden]

there albrecht who's also been pushing the Present™

[stiff fable]

yeah unfortunately that can't happen because of how Warframe is designed

[strange plinth]

screw it warframe 2 is when we kill wally /s

[stiff fable]

hahahahaha

but no seriously I suspect what'll happen is that destroying Wally just destroys his avatar

so no more mind behind the power

[proven spire]

the consequences will still persist

[stiff fable]

but still the Murmur continue their attacks and don't go away

[strange plinth]

i could see that happening, yeah

[proven spire]

Like what quill onkko keeps saying

Consequence upon consequence

Was it ever thus?

[fast dew]

Basically just pulling a nihil and putting him in a bottle

[manic rover]

We need to learn more about other Executors

While I appreciated learning more about Balls in the Old Peace, I was just a bit bummed he was the Executor in the carriage

[brittle siren]

It's kinda sad that the underground area (below the Zariman) where we fight the rogue sentient is not accessible anymore. Now it's just out of the bound holes

[tall echo]

we have

[manic rover]

I mean, I would like them to be on the spotlight in the main story

[tall echo]

we learned the missing names, learned what they looked like, and even what some of them are most known for

[manic rover]

Old Peace and the Dark Refractory opens the gates for side quests that take place in the past

We could have some that focus more on specific executors

[brittle siren]

It's kinda pointless tbh, when most of the things they do aren't related to us that much.

Also, the keyword here is “most” because Tuvul is def responsible for our tragedy, even if it is not directly.

[manic rover]

Tuvul is associated with the Zariman right?

[tall echo]

ye

[brittle siren]

And Karnish since she creates a war during the treaty

[tall echo]

that'S nitokh

[manic rover]

Karishh a dude, the fat one.

[brittle siren]

Sorry, bad at name again

[tall echo]

you got nitokh and karishh mixed

[brittle siren]

Yep

[manic rover]

I want to learn about Scarne who Ballas called him a pacifist during the Old Peace

[tall echo]

we know he was behind the void towers

[manic rover]

He looks like the scholar

[brittle siren]

Though funny to think that Karishh always has a device that helps him float 24/7

[tall echo]

actually that implies scarne was also the guy responsible for the neural sentry to some degree

[manic rover]

Scarne being the Executor of Knowledge/RnD would be good

[tall echo]

[brittle siren]

Tbh he sounds like the least insane out of any of the Seven, since he actually wants peace (or maybe he is just a coward)

[humble sierra]

https://tenor.com/view/dune-arrakis-dune-part-1-harkonnen-atreides-gif-14949351589185319331

[tall echo]

all orokin are cowards

[manic rover]

Or.. he is very much educated and wise. His statue does give him that "Homer" aura

Or that of a philosopher

[brittle siren]

Most*

I think a lot of them are really brave, like the twin Queens

[strange turtle]

He was the guy running the Zariman project

[tall echo]

the twin queens are still cowards

[manic rover]

They are not twins. The Worm Queen was supposed to be the Elder's next body

[tall echo]

bruh

[manic rover]

What- did I say something wring

[brittle siren]

Most Orokin are smart. Idk about “wise” because none of their project really stick in the end.

[tall echo]

they are twins

[manic rover]

Then why the hell is one significantly older looking

[tall echo]

twin orokin who were considered lesser for being twins

[tall echo]

because grineer bodies decay fast

[manic rover]

Oh fair enough

[brittle siren]

I mean them before they become “grineer”

[manic rover]

I wonder if you can do continuity into a warframe

[tall echo]

no, apparently

and not as one either

[manic rover]

Closest to that was whatever happened to Voruna

[tall echo]

something about the infestation being the way it is

[brittle siren]

If they can Tuvul would have an easy way out

[tall echo]

what

[manic rover]

Are you basing that assumption on Roathe doubting he can even do Continuity because of his situation?

[tall echo]

and the fact no orokin ever even considered it

[brittle siren]

What I meant if Warframe is able to used as a scapegoat for continuity, Tuvul would have pick one random warframe and called it a day

[tall echo]

that... still doesn't make much sense

[manic rover]

The Orokin considered the Warframes to be savage beasts. Which is also why Dante was persecuted for being a scholar

You wouldn't get the body of a beast would you

[brittle siren]

Eh I mean if he cant take over the child body may as well do it on Voruna (IF warframe can be continuity)

[tall echo]

warframes at the time of tuvul getting desperate were either concious or controlled by a tenno

he wouldn't survive long enough to continuity

[brittle siren]

Though it strange that he does not have a dax with Orvius to trap Voruna in place

Or any device

[manic rover]

I want to see a Warframe that originated from a Warframed Orokin low-key. We have gotten barely any Warframes that have stories from before they were helminthed

[brittle siren]

Not exactly what you want but Roathe is the closet one

[tall echo]

closest so far is roach's army getting turned into uriels

[brittle siren]

Are they all Orokin too?

[manic rover]

Roathe's army was probably Dax

[tall echo]

but there is a possibility that uriel prime might be an orokin maybe

[tall echo]

no, I said closest so far

[brittle siren]

His memory implied that his friend (Orokin) was join the war with him

[manic rover]

With the first "hatching" that birthed their strain to be Uriel Prime. "You'll never see me say his name" would imply that he personally knew the first Uriel, the Prime

[brittle siren]

And if anyone die they have to drink kuva and let it melt their body

[manic rover]

Are you talking about Maryna that gave her body to him?

[tall echo]

which is why I think uriel prime might be an orokin

[proven spire]

the Orokin themselves also fought but they were mostly commanders

from VM: COMMANDERS

[brittle siren]

Yeah this probably

[tall echo]

which basically translates to: they didn't fight

[brittle siren]

The Father also join the war too iirc

[fast dew]

Railjack guy, got dragged back for whatever reason

[brittle siren]

And the Daughter want to slaughter some Narmer herself 💀

[proven spire]

they were basically officers

[strange turtle]

Nah, Roathe’s got some Descendia dialogue that implies actual battlefield experience

[tall echo]

he's an exception in many things, probably there too

[brittle siren]

Ye, if they actually stay behind, they would survive

But in this case, they died

[manic rover]

Roathe does sound like a guy with combat experience. It would also explain why his soldiers were loyal to him

[tall echo]

oh fun, the sun is shining directly into my eye

[proven spire]

because they were also in the battles yeah

[brittle siren]

Tbh, Orokin Empire is really strong, and they are competent too

If only their EQ is above 20 they would exist longer

[tall echo]

you mean IQ?

or does EQ mean empire quality

[brittle siren]

Are you imply that the Orokin who made a Solar Rail to another star system, created time travel device has low IQ?

[tall echo]

idk what EQ is

[fast dew]

Which is odd, considering he ||seems to be related to the the folk behind the gyre deluxe skin - engineers specifically||

[strange turtle]

It’s like IQ but for like, emotions and empathy

[tall echo]

oh

why is that a thing

[strange turtle]

I mean you could ask the same about IQ

[tall echo]

yes

[brittle siren]

So to make it simple: Orokin are smart, but they are not wise (mostly)

[proven spire]

the orokin had EQ alright, but only amongst themselves because they lived too long and had the same wavelength

[brittle siren]

True

[fast dew]

It seems to take getting your skin blown off to become more down to earth.

[proven spire]

it's always easier to tear things down rather than step up

the immoral act is often the path of least resistance

[tall echo]

high int low wis, classic wizard build

[brittle siren]

Abyssmal luck too

[tall echo]

not a stat in dnd but yes

[brittle siren]

oh, strange, I thought dnd have that stat

ig it doesnt

[tall echo]

Might be getting it confused with fallout's system

[brittle siren]

also, ppl said Cavia write the log on Pom 2 but... how?

[tall echo]

Ppl are guessing

[hollow siren]

the author of the Pom-2 logs is still unknown afaik.

[pale cedar]

Honestly who doesn’t matter

[proven spire]

it's a computer so maybe it logs by itself lol

[brittle siren]

How strong is the sentient, physically?

[hollow siren]

Sentients physically are extremely strong

[unique talon]

Is it me or Roathe is giving me more reasons to hate the orokin even more?

Like seriously, so that means in the future we'll completely throw away our morals between right or wrong?

[tall echo]

Only the ruling class and rich 1%

[manic rover]

Is it explicitely stated there is a loop in the triad too? them be able to freely traverse to the Sanctum implies that they aren't in a bubble like 1999

I know the Drifter can do it but it seems they don't need to do

although it could be that

1999 doesn't have a way "gate" in fear that the indifference will cross it

we can cross it because of transference

[lean garden]

no loop for the triad

[fast dew]

Oh. Good to know.

[manic rover]

fair enough, the year just doesn't change for functional reasons

[lean garden]

still can reset memories tho

but the triad really arent in a loop

[manic rover]

Roathe asking you for that does make it clear.. Drifter can just reset time in a whim..

[fast dew]

Which is kinda stupid

[lean garden]

reset his memories on a whim yes

but not the time there

[fast dew]

They have adjusted loops, but never made em

[manic rover]

Roathe specifically says "Begin Again". I don't think we can reset memories without resetting time

It still must have some conditions though

[lean garden]

for reasons I wont say unless you want me to, time is not being reset

only the memories are

[manic rover]

Unless it has to do with something in later Rank 5 triad conversations, please proceed

[lean garden]

its not in the R5, but its something that can only be achieved if you reset

[manic rover]

oh then go on

because im not gonna reset anyway

[fast dew]

||Oh is it reuniting Loid with the Family, and several chats using that as a boolean far too early for it to have been already possible?||

[lean garden]

||even as you reset the Triad's memories, you didnt reset time, because Loid stays reunited with the fam||

[manic rover]

Oh so resetting memories is the Drifter literally meddling with the infestation.. which also explains why the Hex can keep their memories post reset

[manic rover]

Also. For the loid-entrati family ending. it requires me to get rank 5 with entrati right?

I can do that whenever I want I assume? Even if I exhausted all normal conversations

[fast dew]

I haven't found anything new for loid either, regarding interacting with the family

[manic rover]

I suppose the other Triad members also forget

[fast dew]

No clue on if there's a cutscene or anything but there's been no new content updated on the wiki for it yet

[lean garden]

||correct, but Im too lazy to dig up the flowcharts||

[fast dew]

The orokin archives are in the same situation too.

[manic rover]

Okay so Drifter loops time inside the infestation batches.. who WE KNOW have their own "time" since infestations transcends normal time

[pale cedar]

Archives definitely wouldn’t have it

[proven spire]

what about lizzie, do they get reset as well

[fast dew]

Lizzie knows

[manic rover]

she is parth of the batch so yes

[fast dew]

Roathe trying to interact with Son and Daughter but he doesn't know shit about them 💔

[manic rover]

All warframes are connected to the Helminth. Which is why we can replicate them in the foundry with just their blueprints while they keep their mannerism and in regards to Umbra.. their memories.
The helmith literally works as a cloud storage

The protoframes are their own clusters that are connected to the cloud storage.. in which the Drifter can just right click > delete basically..

[manic rover]

"how do you do fellow kids"

do we learn of how Roathe was ancquainted with them

[pale cedar]

There is a new line from Loid saying the Cavia are wary of our visitor not that they listen to what I have to say mind

[manic rover]

oh good ol' Roathe, drinking buddies with grandpa

[proven spire]

so the hivemind is the entire cloud

[fast dew]

Nah that line is older, isn't it? Lotus eaters

[lean garden]

lizzie knows, in fact she'll let you know she knows, and then tells you she'll play along

[manic rover]

since it thinks for itself, the rogue strain counts as a server

[rain depot]

did anybody else cry during the old peace quest 😭? btw how did that girl take control of those warframes?

[manic rover]

"WHAT DID YOU DO"
"The Flare did not survive"

[fast dew]

Other than the children would absolutely demand to see Loid, and Loid would be stuck explaining the whole situation multiple times if he and Roathe didnt go up together with the whole family in one room

[tall echo]

Nah

[manic rover]

Ascaris Prime

little thingamabobs that control frames remotely

[pale cedar]

Ascaris Prime same way Vor tried at the start of the game

[manic rover]

Vor had placed a walmart one on his quest

but because its from walmart and 5 credits worth

[ashen pulsar]

the worm that vor put in us at the very beginning, but prime

the ascaris prime

[rain depot]

ohh wowwie

[ashen pulsar]

No idea how much stronger it is compared to the original one

but the original one could steal our frame so prime might just be built to steal prime frames

[azure jasper]

So do we know if the Ascaris controls the Operator as well or just severs their connection to the frame?

[manic rover]

I really want them to add an "execution" animation like the one you do on adversaries in which you rip out the ascaris and send the prime back

I have 6 Tenno crying because they lost their buddies

[proven spire]

what does galastra mean when she says "one of the insane ones"

[manic rover]

Uriel.

[rain depot]

wait so when did parvos make protea since we saw protea get taken over?

[manic rover]

During that time the Anarchs are backed by Nitokh and the Devil of Tau

[fast dew]

Two different frames

[pale cedar]

More likely traps the Operator than controls the Operator

[ashen pulsar]

I think galastra implies she killed the operators

[proven spire]

maybe another tenno who's too far gone insane after the zariman

[azure jasper]

I think they're referring to feral frames in general. Apparently before we came in as Tenno they tried to control Frames and it...didn't work.

[hollow siren]

Just a sapient Warframe, not a Prime Commandeered to have its Operator trapped

[rain depot]

wat

[manic rover]

Balls made the Protea strain for Parvos. Gave her the one in the Deadlock Protocol quest
Strain was reused and eventually one of the copies got primed

[fast dew]

Protea prime was seemingly the one Ballas had, regular protea is the one Parvos was given. I think

[hollow siren]

so like she'd send Rhino Prime Codex after you

[ashen pulsar]

she says smth like “what happened to their operator… Can happen to you”

[hollow siren]

Yup

[rain depot]

how long ago was parvos alive? during the old peace era or way later?

[proven spire]

i think it's just a way too traumatized tenno child

[hollow siren]

the "insane ones" are not Commandeered with the Ascaris

[manic rover]

he was definitely alive during the Oroking Empire because he makes comments on it

[hollow siren]

"One of the insane ones, or one of the commandeered Primes; I don't care"

[manic rover]

It could very well just be Uriels. All i'm saying.

[fast dew]

Eh

[proven spire]

which makes it a traumatic event for our operator

[fast dew]

No, probably not.

We've had stories of insane warframes that weren't uriel

[hollow siren]

we never fight any non-commandeered frames in the perita flashbacks

[proven spire]

figthing your insane, traumatized classmate lol

[fast dew]

Such as the rhino who ate people

Stalker also counts ig

[hollow siren]

all the ones we fight are commandeered Primes, she never actually sends one of the "insane ones"

[manic rover]

Yeah but we know about Uriels specifically being under Roathe and Nitokh that then sided with the Anarchs
Moreover.. WE LITERALLY FIND A CRUCIFIED ONE

[fast dew]

That doesn't distract from the fact it... wasn't just uriels?

[proven spire]

we fight the prime vanguard and not uriel tho

[hollow siren]

if the insane ones were commandeered I feel like the wording would be more like "Send in a commandeered Prime, insane or not; I don't care"

[rain depot]

wait since i remember seeing amar in the new quest, have we seen nira and the bird in their original form? Also what even was amar?

[azure jasper]

The Uriels, from what I can tell from the dialogs, we're made from soldiers loyal to Roathe.

[manic rover]

they could potentially have some "wild" ones but it's really just probably Uriel

[fast dew]

Again, insane rhino eating people

[hollow siren]

That was Amar, yes. We have yet to see any of the other four Sentient Beasts' original forms

[manic rover]

yes and Roathe with Nitokh betrayed the Empire and briefly sided with the Anarchs

[rain depot]

there’s 4??

[hollow siren]

Pazuul, the ram

[fast dew]

Ram, owl, snake and wolf

[rain depot]

ohhh

[hollow siren]

he was their leader

[manic rover]

What the hell was Pazuul doing during the new war

[proven spire]

i think the insane ones are traumatized tenno children that went rabid and crazy after the zariman and that the orokin still tried to weaponize and kept in labs

[azure jasper]

I think Pazuul was mostly dead during New War.

[hollow siren]

Unknown, could be that his higher "rank" was enough for Erra to not actually desecrate his remains with Archon-ification

[fast dew]

Oh no, the insane frames are the original warframes made without an operator iirc

[hollow siren]

More likely just insane warframes the Anarchs have captured

[fast dew]

It was the main design flaws of the warframes

They went insane, as is the nature of the infestation

[manic rover]

Anarchs won't dare to drop a Valkyr

[proven spire]

could be yeah

[manic rover]

most of them went insane

[azure jasper]

And since they had an Erra just laying around, the other Archons used him to resurrect Pazuul after.

[proven spire]

look at what my ascaris did to one of your warframes

[hollow siren]

It's unknown who actually grafted Pazuul's corpse to Erra

[fast dew]

Without an operator, they WILL go insane. That's not something thats debatable.

[manic rover]

Do we know the Archons had died before they got glued on the warframes

[hollow siren]

the Beasts' remains were grafted, yes

[manic rover]

Dante never had an operator. He was perfectly sane AND EVEN WROTE A BOOK.
He was persecuted because the Orokin didn't believe a warframe could be "smart"

[azure jasper]

I still wonder how much of Erra's mind is in Pazuul, if any.

[hollow siren]

Stalker, Sevagoth, Jade, Dante

[proven spire]

i thought warframes were just inert without transference

[manic rover]

Stalker is pushing it a bit

Jade had an operator

[hollow siren]

It does seem glimpses of him are peeking through. That might even be why Lotus wants to find another healer Sentient; to revive Erra

[tall echo]

Kully

[azure jasper]

Well, it was more that the Operator had a Jade, IIRC.

[proven spire]

well the normal warframes anyway, umbra was the exception

[fast dew]

Stalker is not fully sane, jade had an operator, no clue on sevagoth but from what I gleamed he wasn't the most sane either, and I dont think its ever said Dante didnt have a operator

[strange turtle]

Yeah, the specter he has is of normal Protes

[tall echo]

Seva was very sane

[rain depot]

healer sentient? was adis one? are there any others we know of?

[fast dew]

Wasn't he like. Stuck on tbe same mission again and again?

[tall echo]

He was stuck trying to rescue himself

[strange turtle]

Also like

That was just his job

[manic rover]

Sevagoth was driving a Railjack. Railjacks were for Tenno.
I assume for a time he had an Operator till it went to sleep
In that time Sevagoth sailed the seven seas.. and "lost his life"

[tall echo]

But that was after he "died"

[strange turtle]

Not just for Tenno

[tall echo]

Railjacks weren't just for tenno

[manic rover]

really?

[strange turtle]

There were Dax and even Orokin crews

[fast dew]

Mm,we do have father piloting a railjack

[manic rover]

fair enough

[azure jasper]

Railjacks were ships that had crews in general. Vilcor was a Railjack gunner.

[proven spire]

my guess is that the commandeered warframes are the ascaris controlled ones without an operator and the "insane ones" are the traumatized tenno test subjects that the orokin kept in labs or something

[manic rover]

DO NOT LET THE DEAD BEAT FATHER DRIVE

[proven spire]

like our kid came out of the zariman okay lmao

[tall echo]

He's not.. what.

[fast dew]

He's not a dead beat tbh. That's Albrecht.

Vilcor just didnt understand Daughter enough

[azure jasper]

Vilcor tried his best. He was just way out of his element.

[tall echo]

Other way around

[rain depot]

i’m kinda confused when playing the quests. why were the orokin so powerful did they have any special abilities?

[tall echo]

The commandeered primes are explicitly tenno-controlled

[fast dew]

Child murder

[proven spire]

ascaris makes the operator crazy or something? can you explain

[strange turtle]

They were the ruling caste

[north jolt]

I was going to point out how the commandeered frames drop prime ascariasis, but I forgot what the devices were called :d

[tall echo]

Do you know what commandeered means

[azure jasper]

With a side of body theft.

[proven spire]

so there are tenno who want war with the sentients?

[humble sierra]

It takes over the Warframes

[tall echo]

No.

[proven spire]

that's what i'm saying lol

[humble sierra]

"Comandeered" in this context means controlled, or forcibly taken over

[strange turtle]

The commandeered frames are the tenno/operated ones, taken over using the ascaris

[proven spire]

but this one says it's the other way around

[tall echo]

In any context

[azure jasper]

An Ascaris is to a Warframe kind of like what a Restraining Bolt is to a Droid in Star Wars, just with remote control abilities added.

[fast dew]

But they made pretty things!!/s

[proven spire]

yes what i said

so how is it the other way around lmao

[tall echo]

To commandeer is to take control away from the owner of a vehicle or similar

[tall echo]

No?

[rain depot]

warframe is just fnaf with a few extra steps lowkey

[proven spire]

please learn how to read

[strange turtle]

No, you said that the commandeered ones were the non-operator ones that went insane

[tall echo]

Please learn consistency

[proven spire]

my guess is that the commandeered warframes are the ascaris controlled ones without an operator and the "insane ones" are the traumatized tenno test subjects that the orokin kept in labs or something

[humble sierra]

They let loose crazy, unpiloted Warframes, or piloted Warframes that have been taken over by the Ascaris

[tall echo]

Yeah that's. Not the same

[humble sierra]

Other way around, the dialogue implies Ascaris controlled ones are the ones with Operators, and the insane ones are just berserk, pilotless warframes

[ashen pulsar]

the commandeered frames had operators. galastra implies she killed them or smth

[proven spire]

that's what i'm getting at, the ascaris removes the operator

[tall echo]

The ascaris did

[tall echo]

It doesn't

It does worse

[ashen pulsar]

can it do that?

huh. interesting.

[humble sierra]

Lotus' dialogues when you do a Vanguard mission imply that you're facing off against Tenno, not just Warframes

[azure jasper]

Okay, where are we getting that the Ascaris itself kills the Operator? I don't remember that.

[tall echo]

Dialogue indicates that the ascaris kills/otherwise forcibly cuts off tenno control

[proven spire]

so we're fighting either our deranged classmates or anarch controlled warframes

[strange turtle]

No, not deranged

Just no longer in control of the warframe

[tall echo]

It implies that we thought we were facing off against tenno

[proven spire]

so ascaris controlled

like what i said

[tall echo]

Again not like you said

[humble sierra]

Both, not either/or

[azure jasper]

I'm curious why they went with Tenno instead of the Ascaris if the thing actually works to any degree of proficiency.

[proven spire]

what i mean by deranged classmates are insane tenno children who were forced into warframes influenced by the anarchs

[tall echo]

Which isn't the case

[proven spire]

how do you know

[strange turtle]

Burns out the pilots

[tall echo]

I can read and understand the dialogue

[humble sierra]

They were regular Tenno, the Ascaris either killed them, or seemingly trapped them into their Warframes and they're forced to watch themselves fight their old classmate

[proven spire]

Lotus' dialogues when you do a Vanguard mission imply that you're facing off against Tenno, not just Warframes

this dialogue?

[azure jasper]

Ah, so the Anarchs are fine sending pilots to be burnt out. That actually makes sense, given Nitokh backing them.

[tall echo]

Hhhhbnmmngfdtccji

[tall echo]

@proven spire

[humble sierra]

That's a quote from me. Here's the dialogue I was referring to.

Lotus: "The Anarchs were cruel, turning loyal friends into maddened enemies. Lay their tormented ghosts to rest."

[proven spire]

so our operator just thought that, it's why it has become a traumatic event to them

[tall echo]

"When the vanguard attacked it felt like betrayal"

[proven spire]

so basically our tenno was gaslit into misremembering things huh

[tall echo]

Essentially

Normal ballas things

[proven spire]

can't even trust their own memories even the lotus lies to us smh

[azure jasper]

I mean, given that Margulis was apparently okay outright blocking memories, gaslighting is definitely on the table.

[proven spire]

can't trust anything you see in the memory VR machine pool ig

[tall echo]

Margulis was kinda a bad person too ngl

[proven spire]

can't trust anything, not the dialogue, not the kim chats, not the lore entries, not the wiki entries, nothing, nada

[pale cedar]

Not really

[tall echo]

Trust me :)

I have trust issues, which ironically makes me quite trustworthy

[proven spire]

i would rather trust you, a person online, than what the game tells me right in front of my screen

but what if the wiki is already incorrect and also based on assumptions because people can also contribute

kinda like how wikipedia is a not credible source for academic stuff

[strange turtle]

Yeah

[humble sierra]

I don't think anyone said anything from the wiki, just the game itself

[strange turtle]

It is

[tall echo]

It kinda is usually

We true lore people hate the wiki

[strange turtle]

The game isn’t constantly lying to you there’s just one specific subject that has information about it manipulated

[proven spire]

the lore is what i make it out to be

[humble sierra]

Yeah it's only good for getting the actual descriptions

[proven spire]

i cannot adapt to new information

i also have preconceived notions on certain topics

[tall echo]

Guess you aren't sentient

[proven spire]

i need to slot in adaptation and remove narrow minded

they're both the same polarity

[tall echo]

...what were sentients called pre-sentience

[strange turtle]

And then some characters are wrong, yeah, but thats because they’re written as people and not just mouthpieces so their information is subjective and not always fact, that’s just a basic rule for actual interaction

[strange turtle]

Void l******

[tall echo]

Void loid

[proven spire]

can't trust anything that the game presents us, everything is a red herring

it's all building up into another one of those subversion tropes you see

[tall echo]

Use backslash to turn off formatting

[pale cedar]

Just say Void Lugger

[tall echo]

*\potat*

[proven spire]

the litmus test of the old peace is if you attacked the racist ordis or not in the end

i bet DE has analytics on that

[pale cedar]

They do

They usually show them eventually

[tall echo]

I didn't because I was fighting to take back my immersion

The operator's behavior after adis died isn't how I'd react

[proven spire]

67% of the playerbase thought racist ordis was cool and let him live

[pale cedar]

Racist Ordis is cool
Until you aren’t cool

[strange turtle]

[proven spire]

like that one scene in the joker movie lmao

[tall echo]

He's not cool, but he's innocent

[pale cedar]

He’s just highly opinionated

[proven spire]

yeah he doesn't know any better

it's not his fault

[strange turtle]

https://tenor.com/view/blight-batman-beyond-you-killed-my-father-do-you-have-any-idea-how-little-that-narrows-it-down-do-you-have-the-slightest-idea-how-little-that-narrows-it-down-gif-25176272

[tall echo]

He learns to know better shortly before we find him

Disappointing that the one person to understand what happened is also the one who can be reprogrammed

[pale cedar]

I let him live because I’m not stupid and know destroying a drone ain’t gonna kill him anyway

[proven spire]

They’re gonna make more drones that say void lugger

Psychological and emotional warfare

Roathe’s new strategem

[pale cedar]

Now find a Sentient that can heal like Adis

[proven spire]

Sing the sentient slurs away

I'm gonna edit the warframe wiki to fit my own view on things

[azure jasper]

I let the racist cephalon live so that someone could tell the Orokin how badly they shot the dog.

[drowsy saddle]

uhhh, Daklo gets crushed by debris as soon as he passes you...

[north jolt]

I let him live so he can face a punishment worse then death

Being stuck in a system full of sentients

[old wharf]

Is new loka just a bunch of angry vegans?

[north jolt]

Yes

[tall echo]

a bunch of angry vegans with a very historically familiar opinion on "unpure" people

their words not mine

[silk atlas]

They learn after Silver Grove that maybe all this talk about "purity" is probably crazy and not good, but the faction lines still talk about all that "purity" stuff

[latent ice]

Do all of the Warframes have a backstory or something?

[tall echo]

no, but many do

garuda famously was promised lore and never got any

[silk atlas]

The ones that get lore are the ones that get lore, as silly as it is to say. A lot of the time the lore revolves around one specific frame that we just happened to learn from and not necessarily the entire lore of the "batch" that Warframe came from overall.

[lilac aspen]

Oh
They basically just wipe out the bit about Silver Grove from their brains to continue on their merry beliefs

They simply believed the Silver Grove to be one of the greatest examples of purity of nature

So when they found out it wasn’t

https://tenor.com/view/i-will-ignore-that-friez-drag-dragon-mem-gif-25679084

[silk atlas]

Narratively they would've learned from that but game mechanics do be mechanicing'

[tall echo]

no

[lilac aspen]

They’re as insane and unstable as the Red group
But they like to see themselves as “pure”

They’re basically the other side of the extreme

[ashen pulsar]

steel meridian is the only really compassionate syndicate

[tall echo]

meridian, suda and arby's are the only good syndicates

coincidentally they're the easiest to be friends with all at once

[ashen pulsar]

suda is kind of good but also has zero care for life

[tall echo]

suda actually cares for life a lot

she abhors destruction, including that of life

[ashen pulsar]

Mainly just for the sake of preservation of knowledge, no?

[tall echo]

in general

she just likes things not being destroyed

[ashen pulsar]

well, whatever, if she has good goals and doesn’t do bad things then she’s probably a good syndicate

[tall echo]

sometimes you gotta destroy the few to protect the many though, so she still has kill squads

the two suda-opposed syndicates are veil and loka iirc which is fitting

[lilac aspen]

She has a great taste in music so I can give her the pass if she decided to delete things

[ashen pulsar]

The groups of allies are meridian-veil, suda-arbiters, and perrin-loka right

[digital ore]

so...is Ember Prime's codex....no longer canon?

aka, where Zariman 10-0 isn't a colony ship or research ship
but a military ship, that should not have had kids on it

its jump wasn't to Tau, but from saturn to the outer gate, when it failed.

the investigator that...broke prodecure to reopen the case, discovered the tenno, was burned by them. etc

[pale cedar]

It’s still canon military ship was just the lie Orokin said to cover up the incident

[ashen pulsar]

zariman was always a colony ship

[digital ore]

...?

[pale cedar]

It only ever had ceremonial weapons on board

[lilac aspen]

Basically the Orokin did a whoopsie and tried to cover it up as a more “it was an experiment gone wrong with variables that we didn’t intentionally do.”

[pale cedar]

Orokin lying isn’t anything new

[ashen pulsar]

which happened to get voidtouched and become really powerful

[lilac aspen]

The void really looked at the ceremonial weapons and went “Okay but what if we can make these actually cooler?”

[digital ore]

so...rather than sol to tau. orokin said it was saturn to outer gate

rather than colony ship...orokin said it was a military ship

rather than not having kids on board, orokin said there were never any kids on the zariman ten-zero. as that would break procedure

....and then they gave the job of investigating the reappeared zariman....to a random investigator.
who found the tenno, got burned by them, and demanded answers...

[strange turtle]

Perrin:

[ashen pulsar]

even tho felarx is actually stronger incarnoff in the game

[tall echo]

communist capitalists

[ashen pulsar]

perrin is in the middle

pseudo-corpus

[tall echo]

perrin are an oxymoron

[ashen pulsar]

that are slightly better people

[digital ore]

eh less communists, capitalists or communist capitalists

and more.. more pinkertons

aka, militarized capitalists

aka when they send the moas to break your legs cause u dont support them

[lilac aspen]

Truly they have managed to merge two concepts into one
Such a power move

[rich stump]

Actually, as we see in the New War, it’s Saturn to Tau (or was supposed to be)

[tall echo]

they believe that wealth should be shared equally

[tall echo]

gameplay=/=lore

[digital ore]

aye, but i repeating what the orokin claim it was in the Ember codex

[tall echo]

one day I will figure out how to actually do crossed out =

[ashen pulsar]

it was actually saturn to tau, not sol to tau

[digital ore]

which btw...if you ever wonder what happened to Kaleen....might want to look at your ember prime a 2nd time...

[lilac aspen]

≠

[tall echo]

sol (system) to tau (system)

[digital ore]

saturn is in sol system. so same thing

[lilac aspen]

Copy this and paste it in a document or somewhere to have it forever

[tall echo]

≠

thank

[digital ore]

for any not familair with the codex entry..

Three figures waited behind a simple table. Their attention on a single chair, bathed in light. An old woman's voice from the shadow: 'Send her in'. Across the room a security officer, stern and plain, opened the door. The outline of a young woman appeared at the door. She hesitated, but only for an instant, then crossed the room and sat.

There was a gasp as the light hit her face. Her right eye was bright and blinking, but her left was a greasy slit. Her skin had been burned moon-white. Her mouth was a sagging gash without lips or expression. Her military beret was pulled snug over a scarred and hairless scalp.

The old voice: 'Your name is Kaleen.' Kaleen nodded. 'You were the principal investigator of the Zariman?' Kaleen's voice was a jagged whisper, a rigid face. 'Yes.'

Kaleen coughed, straightened: 'The Zariman was lost making the fold from Saturn to the Outer gates. Mechanical failure. I notified families and filled a report with the inspectors. Nothing ever returns from the fold, so I closed the case.'

'But you reopened the case, days later.'

'I didn't believe it myself until I stepped aboard the ship. It was completely intact, full environmental, as if it had never left.'

'And the crew was gone.'

'Not exactly.' Kaleen hesitated. 'We thought it was empty but we began to find...' Her face twitched at remembered pain, 'We began to find children hiding in the ship.'

'And that is when you violated procedure?'

Kaleen bowed her head, a tear welling in her sightless eye. 'They were children. They were afraid. They needed comfort.'

'So you broke quarantine and this happened to you.'

There was silence as Kaleen touched her face, 'So what have you done with them?'

The old woman gestured for the officer to take Kaleen away. The meeting was over. When Kaleen reached the door she twisted out of his grip and shot back, 'Why would you do that? Why did you put children on a military ship?'
'We didn't. That would violate procedure.'

[tall echo]

I forgot how long the lore codices can be

[digital ore]

eh most aint that long

[tall echo]

can be

my wording is deliberate

[digital ore]

Ember Prime was one of the first ones we got real lore for the frames. so is a bit of an odd one out

fun fact, when that lore came out, we didnt know the Zariman would be connected to the "Tenno" xD

[ashen pulsar]

someone had to make the guess that ten-o was tenno

[digital ore]

eventually yes

[ashen pulsar]

there’s no way that flew over everyone’s head

[digital ore]

but back then they called it zariman

not zariman ten-0

[ashen pulsar]

ah that’s fair

[digital ore]

i do miss those days. when we thought we were literally people in suits xD
back when forums had fics like "Out Of Frame: The Everyday Lives Of The Tenno" aka jersey shore space ninja edition

and then discovering for the first time about who we really were. those reveals blew your socks off

[pale cedar]

There’s players who play the Sacrifice and still think that

[digital ore]

aye. messed up once and had a mr 4 in a void mission
who saw me using my drifter (i was experimenting with amps)

and asked if protea had 2 forms

rest of squad came to my rescue and said "yeah its a 2nd form of protea, but u gotta do 2nd dream to get it" xD

[normal mountain]

Either because they don't read/listen,
Or they've already made up their minds to ignore The Second Dream

[tall echo]

I wonder how many artists stopped drawing frames after second dream released

[digital ore]

not many from what i've seen. just alot less with heads instead of helmets

though, protoframes have brought that trend back

[pale cedar]

If you pay an artist to make something they still will

[digital ore]

speaking of..i gotta get an artist to draw my new operator and frame...
.....but gotta pick 1 frame....koumei or wisp...grrrrr why cant koumei just float like wisp, would make that choice so easy

[tall echo]

well, she can. just use wisp anims

[digital ore]

i mean when moving

[tall echo]

just headcanon it

I firmly believe that caliban floats even though he doesn't

[lilac aspen]

He clearly floats
He just floats a centimeter off the ground when he “walks”

[normal mountain]

And the clanking noise you hear when he walks is just his pulse engines running

[alpine pendant]

I have a question about Eternalism. Are the Drifter and the Operator actually the same person? Or do they occupy the same narrative role through Eternalism with a connection more fraught than "same person with one diverging event?" I justify this in-game customization by claiming that to the Void, these people are interchangeable because each person was the one offered the deal by the Man in the Wall, so even if they aren't technically the same person with the same body and the same name, they are the same entity as far as "the universe" is concerned. I don't know how true that is, but it feels truer than "my Operator grew up to be a Black man" lmao

[lilac aspen]

Basically they are like
Uh

“What if I turned left instead of right?”

[drowsy saddle]

Fairly sure they're tje exact same individual up to the hand shake

[alpine pendant]

then this customization is purely for in-game reasons, i guess?

[lilac aspen]

In Operator’s case
They became the Tenno and all that plotline

Drifter was “okay all that same events but you specifically don’t get any powers or rescue.”

[lilac aspen]

Could explain it off as cosmetic technology stuff

[ashen pulsar]

obviously

[lilac aspen]

Considering the Orokin made themselves blue and weird armed for Fashion tm