lore-discussion

[hollow siren]

The Warden is Ballas because it's an embodiment of Kullervo's hatred and regrets

[restive river]

He also had a crush on him iirc
Something along those lines

[hollow siren]

It's a whole situation

[vestal estuary]

Isn't The Warden the embodiment of his hatred and all, and the voice of the warden is ballas?

[ocean geyser]

God
Karishh really is fat

[restive river]

He grafted on additional stomachs

[ocean geyser]

Yeah ik

[hollow siren]

https://tenor.com/view/dune-dune-part-2-harkonnen-arena-baron-vladimir-harkonnen-gif-13782135413706216311

[strange turtle]

It was like 12 right?

[pale cedar]

Yeah

Certainly a way to always have room

[strange turtle]

The real reason the Orokin had such big rooms and hallways

Didn’t actually mind smaller construction but lardass insisted on always being able to eat the body mass of a whale shark

[frail harness]

Surely he couldve just gotten a cybernetic enhancement that like disintergrates half of what he eats so he can enjoy eating without getting fat right

[hollow siren]

Grafted stomachs might be easier to transfer when he inevitably needs Continuity

since they were attached to an Archwing-esque robotic rig

[strange turtle]

I remember we had a conversation about this and the theory we settled on was that he might’ve wanted to preserve like, the actual experience

Like eating and having that sensation and satisfaction of getting fuller

[frail harness]

i dont even wanna unpack that

[dark compass]

Lmao

[feral sable]

Such a chud

[dark compass]

He is just very hungry

[narrow pendant]

grendel ended up eating him in one bite

ch_heyummy

[pale cedar]

Naga Drums casually being the kindest thing Ballas ever planned

[hollow siren]

I love how they had the drums yeah but then Ballas was also like "I want a DJ" and glued The Instrument to a warframe

[opaque zenith]

He also went "let's rock n' roll" but gave up halfway, coward

[narrow pendant]

then gives kullervo the credit

what a humble guy

[lilac aspen]

“Shoot, they’re not listening to my music suggestions.”

[frail harness]

Is there actually like

A readable story of the night of naga drums

[hollow siren]

Stalker's Codex entry, Octavia's Anthem

[opaque zenith]

Also diverse mentions and personal perspectives, but no detailed historical recording with what/how exactly happened

[pale cedar]

We just don’t have any quests around it probably because adding all the frames and multiple Tenno with all the animations and stuff plus VA hiring might make it hard to do

[covert pebble]

Imagine if Warframe ends with the Tenno sacrificing themselves to bring back the Xenoflowers at Tau/on Perita

[dark compass]

It won't be Tenno

[pale cedar]

I don’t think we even can revive them tbh they’re Alien

[dark compass]

Maybe it'll be played something like

"just a couple flowers remain, last hope for the sentients"

[frail harness]

If Grineer are all clones, what was the point of making both male and female ones? i doubt they're able to reproduce so i dont see the point

[dark compass]

They are clones of specific clones of specific clones

Biological gender remains, I don't think they eally care

[frail harness]

Yeah but why clone a male and a female to begin with

[pale cedar]

Why not?

[frail harness]

Is it not more ideal to just have one shape of soldier so you can predict their physique better

[dark compass]

Because the original body was?

[frail harness]

Yeah but like why scan an original male and female if the clones dont need to reproduce and you only really need one kind

Why not all female or all male

[pale cedar]

Game would also be more dull if they only had one gender type

[dark compass]

Maybe because they were modified clones of normal people once?

[frail harness]

i already adressed that

[opaque zenith]

Going by that analogy ,they are clones of specific worker clones that excel in some battle activity, if it was a male or female one that achived that, it mattered not

[frail harness]

being clones of original people doesnt necessitate having multiple genders of clone when you only need one

[silk atlas]

They make the slave clones for different things

[frail harness]

They dont really need different genders either tho

[silk atlas]

Says who

[frail harness]

..The fact that they dont need to reproduce?

[dark compass]

Questions is about having diversity in the clones

[hollow siren]

and why would gender affect that

[frail harness]

The bodies would have little difference in actual ability, especially with the gene modifications and cybernetic enhancements we know they had

[random wadi]

this is just my opinion but I believe the operator would be the one dying base what he did with the void(the deal) but at the same time drifter may be his salvation idk im just speculating and going base of the lore

[silk atlas]

Gender specifically nothing, but I dont expect them to just make one clone forever and not have different clones that also to just happen to be different genders because they're good at different things

[dark compass]

All female clones have cyberlegs btw

[silk atlas]

Hence, why there are also female clones. Not because they specifically had some kind of gender quota, but because there was some well respected female unit that got cloned a bunch because she was good at her job

[opaque zenith]

Now for the gender in the first place, the female grineer are normaly more inteligent, given more specialized cargo, like snipers and kuva guardians, so the og workers might have something about that.
TLDR: A basic female for smart work, male for brute-force work might be the simplest reason

[analog swan]

https://tenor.com/view/wat-warframe-wat-vay-hek-wat-vay-hek-what-warframe-what-gif-12442807

[dark compass]

Kela my beloved

[frail harness]

But we see female footsoldiers just as the male ones do

[versed terrace]

Okay so
Im guessing protoframes can’t enter the present our tenno usually does missions in right?

[opaque zenith]

Yeah, the specialized jobs

[frail harness]

In fact it seems the women only started falling into more tactical/sniper roles after the Orokin fell and clone rot started to set in

Because in the Old Peace they all wore the same uniform and did the same things

[vestal estuary]

wouldn't they also clone a male and female to slow down the degradation of their genome?

[frail harness]

So the whole "the women are snipers" thing cant be the reason the orokin initially cloned female Grineer

[dark compass]

They can thanks to our transference

[frail harness]

I dont think degredation was ever an issue until the Orokin Empire fell, they seem to have had ways around it

[vestal estuary]

Since if they only use the male template they would be cloning clones twice as fast as when they have two different templates

[dark compass]

It's them moving into the future when we use the skins

[analog swan]

Wouldn't it be more feasible to just think they didn't have just one subject to clone, but multiple that would have high quality desired genes?

[versed terrace]

Ah
Ty

[vestal estuary]

fair, then I guess males were slightly better at one thing and females slightly better at another

[random wadi]

True in the lore it shows that most of the female warriors were more focused on intelligence and not in the Frontline but later on they realize that the grineer were dying to quick because of their blood or something that makes them decay so to compensate for the loss of warriors in the Frontline they make made cybernetic limbs for everyone so they can live longer

[frail harness]

Yeah, two genders of clones means you're splitting your output in two areas for no logical reason. Just make one kind of clone and modify it to be competent at anything you need the grineer to be able to do. They cant reproduce and i doubt they wouldve been allowed to anyway so the added gender just kinda lowers efficiency

[silk atlas]

Yeah exactly, which is why I think it's just a matter of "damn this girl can work, clone her"

[frail harness]

If you look at the prime grineer(for lack of a better term) you can tell that the female grineer soldiers only got more tactical roles like snipers after the clone-rot set in i believe, on Perita all grineer are just grineer and wear soldier outfits regardless of gender

[hollow siren]

yeah there's not really a logical reason in-universe, it's mainly just from a design perspective

[dark compass]

Same reason why all female Grineer have visible robo legs

Design flavor until stated otherwise

[frail harness]

So maybe the female units are less affected by the clone-rot mentally and thats why post-orokin put them in tactical roles? That explains why they're in those roles now, but i doubt the orokin ever planned for clone rot because they didnt plan for their empire to fall

[strange turtle]

Thats the actual term they’re referred to with, it’s fine

[hollow siren]

maybe Queens gave the women "higher" roles just due to the matriarchy

[pale cedar]

What if they just wanted diversity?

[strange turtle]

Not like it’s inaccurate to the usage of Prime anyway

[opaque zenith]

Is actually easier to clone a smart person and another brute person than one Jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none and having to train then for every job, so the gender was more like a consequence of getting the easiest template

[frail harness]

That.. doesnt seem like a high value of the orokin for their clone army lol

[dark compass]

I can't believe Grineer are woke

[hollow siren]

The Grineer Monarchs

[frail harness]

I'm surprised the grineer werent all one shape with no actual gender and their armour sealed to their bodies permanently honestly

[analog swan]

Consider that grineer were originaly 'builders' for Orokin, the Dax were the soldiers. So they just supplemented the armed forces with clones, because they could just print out a lot, but those were fodder mostly

[frail harness]

Id argue even with what we know, genders for your working class clones make even less sense than for your military clones

[strange turtle]

The Grineer Sovereigns who replaced the Golden Lords with the Gunmetal Governors

[random wadi]

From the lore the empire wanted to go the easy route so they use cybernetic limbs for all of them

[dark compass]

That's a lot of Gs

[hollow siren]

Those only came about after the empire fell and the Grineer started getting Clone Rot

[frail harness]

Women in tactical/sniper roles and all women having robotic legs were both post-orokin facts so i think those are explained by the female clone genome having a mutation that gave each generation weaker legs (think Elden Ring Albinaurics) but they were less affected by clone-rot mentally

Which is admittedly quite interesting in my opinion but holds no bearing on the original intentions of the Orokin

[hollow siren]

yeah like somewhere along the line a female clone genome just had a mutation that helped them fit that sort of role, and it kept from there

[analog swan]

Don't think the Orokin cared which gender of grineer clone does what, they were essentially cheap manufactured labor force, if they had to get rid of 10 000 they wouldn't consider it a loss.

[frail harness]

I think it was likely the other way around

[strange turtle]

Thats why the Grineer have the best pilots, they can handle that many

[silk atlas]

The original intention was "damn that girl can work, clone her." They didn't care that the clone was female, just that she happened to be useful.

[frail harness]

The Kuva Queens realised the female genome's legs were failing but their minds held stronger than the males so they gave the women cybernetic legs and put them in strategic roles

[frail harness]

If that were the case I'd struggle to believe only two individuals got cloned for the grineer

[random wadi]

The clone rot right but it shows that most tactical were woman and infantry were man but when there's war they didn't really care who goes

[opaque zenith]

Also breeding clones the "old fashioned way" for less recourse spend on the tubes is not off the table. Granted the modern ones are sterile, though

[frail harness]

I feel like with the tech the Orokin had, you could clone a thousand grineer in the time it takes to make fifty grineer in the "traditional method"

If not way more

[silk atlas]

There likely wasn't. They plucked Grineer who did really good at their jobs to make more of them. If that Grineer that killed that Sentient with a shovel was a woman, the exact same thing would happen to her.

[analog swan]

With Orokin perspective, I doubt anyone even saw Grineer as people. They were essentailly disposable tools. A job needed to be filled, if a clone could do it, then it was doing it, like automating services. I doubt grineer clones were ever paid, they weren't really 'people'

[random wadi]

True back then doe

[opaque zenith]

Just though the more the merrier, no matter the method

[thick yacht]

The Grineer are not making themselves look worthy with how they act toward others now

[frail harness]

Ig itd be interesting if for the builder Grineer the Orokin cloned like 100 different people and then simulated evolution by killing the ones that fell behind parameters, only cloning the best actors until only two specimens remained

Literally no proof for that in any way shape or form but it isnt impossible

[thick yacht]

In the words of Stan Edgar: you are not a god, you are simply bad product.

That is what the Grineer are: product gone bad.

[opaque zenith]

Kid workers are better to enter machine gears and all that old mentality

[thick yacht]

They would not be acting this high and mighty if the Orokin were around still

[silk atlas]

The genetic stuff was always an ongoing thing. Did really good, you got cloned a bunch until someone does even better.

[hollow siren]

That's how Combat Grineer even became a thing

random Labor Grineer managed to kill a Sentient

[analog swan]

Grineer clones aren't star wars clones, it wasn't about clonning 'same person', I am pretty sure they clonned whatever they wanted to clone, for cheap labor and services. I wouldn't be surprised if some orokin guy clonned himself a harem of his favorite slaves just to live some hedonistic fantasy

[frail harness]

i want fanmade names and lore for the male and female grineer base templates STAT

i wanna see them and their endeavours on AO3 by morning or youre FIRED

[hollow siren]

Kahl x Kaelli might exist

[thick yacht]

There are the ones calling themselves superior to everyone else btw

[hollow siren]

and while a terrible thing, I could see someone making Valdur x Operator fics too

[analog swan]

https://tenor.com/view/sesame-street-what-did-i-just-read-read-bert-and-ernie-gif-16828405

[pale cedar]

Adis x Operator

[hollow siren]

hey I'm not condoning it, I'm just saying it's definitely possible

That's a given

hell the game almost does it already

[analog swan]

Well, then technically Ballas x Khora is a thing, since she was made in image of Margulis...

[thick yacht]

Say what you want about the Orokin but at least they looked the part

[frail harness]

Goofy helmet

[analog swan]

I hope DE will one day explain why thye had big right hand...

[thick yacht]

They already did

[frail harness]

They have

[analog swan]

Huh? Why? XD

[frail harness]

It's supposed to be a symbol of generosity

[thick yacht]

It was their “giving hand” to show generosity of the Orokin

[static oar]

will the stalker come back in the story in the future?

[analog swan]

seriously? 😅 and here I thought it was only so they could pluck an apple from a tree without a ladder

[hollow siren]

Very plausible

Jade Shadows is listed as a main quest, it might even be a prereq for Tau 2026 if Hunhow is involved in that

[static oar]

because his plot right now feels unfinished

[pale cedar]

I just think they wanted to reach shelves in reality

[frail harness]

They've got slaves for that stuff

They had slaves for everything

[tall echo]

slaves who probably aren't taller

[frail harness]

Nah you stick the slaves together like those textas you'd have at school and use them to reach the top shelf

[dark compass]

The horrible malformed Grineer clone that looks like stairs

[tall echo]

tex-what

[frail harness]

Texta

Idk what non-australians call them

[tall echo]

there'S a surprising amount of australians in the wf community

[frail harness]

Yeah the Oceania servers are always surprisingly active it's a nice surprise

[tall echo]

thomas was here at some point during the deadly sins discussion right

bc he's also from there

I'm gonna start collecting australian wf players

[hollow siren]

@hidden glade your people are being trashtalked

[tall echo]

eh?

the only ppl I trash talk are orokin

[frail harness]

I need a better Uriel syandana

[tall echo]

I'm using the valdur one, fits my fashion surprisingly well

[frail harness]

I use the Pyra one

[hidden glade]

oceania servers are dead unless youre playing the newest content, just swap to NA servers tbh

[tall echo]

maybe one of the undecillion tennogen wing syandanas would work?

[hollow siren]

They're sending the Arid Corps after you

[frail harness]

I almost always get matches in Oceania

also hello fellow upside-downer

I usually switch to NA to trade or get blessings tho

[hidden glade]

I just deal with the ping issues, this game is pretty comfy on high ping still

[tall echo]

one australian in my clan once said that Down Under is the unofficial national anthem, is that about right?

[hollow siren]

it's always nice when the game begs us not to play with eachother on invite

[frail harness]

All my friends are american, i was forged in the Bad Ping, molded by it

[pale cedar]

You swapped to NA because Oceania is dead

I swapped to NA because you’ve been playing for over an hour

We are not the same

[tall echo]

I'm german, bad ping is part of my nature

[dark compass]

Is it

[tall echo]

yes

[dark compass]

Why

[tall echo]

well there's the fairly common term "bambusleitung" used to refer to our internet stuff. translates roughly to bamboo cabling

common meaning I hear it used a lot

[dark compass]

[frail harness]

guys this isnt lore we're gonna get obliterated by [DE]

[pale cedar]

https://tenor.com/view/warframe-trailer-cinematic-trailer-grineer-tenno-gif-23972872

Actually do we have Germany in Warframe yet?

[hollow siren]

I think its equivalent is mentioned in 1999 maybe?

[dark compass]

I guess I have survivorship bias then

[tall echo]

no

though uh. scaldra is certainly close to old germany

[hollow siren]

oh yeah

totalitarian military force that uses old religion in an almost cult-like fashion

[tall echo]

also chemicals

[strange turtle]

also tanks

[north jolt]

No, Germany got cancelled/jkg

[narrow pendant]

we got the brits, US, french, i believe soviets? and höllvania, while the name is derived from the german word for hell "Hölle" i read its supposed to be located in eastern europe

also albrecht entratie is/can be a nod to albert einstein, and his mother & wally calling him little bengel which means brat in german

which could be either just a reference or surviving in universe culture

i could extend that to ballas naming gauss after the german mathematician, who could be canon to their universe too

[grizzled patrol]

I have some questions about the warframe 1999 lore:

• My understanding is that in the whispers in the walls quest we find out that Ballas's shenanigans at the end of the new war caused the indifference to be able to seep into reality more, primarily through albrecht's lab

• We do a whole bunch of stuff to reduce its ability to come into the lab

• We find out that during the old war albrecht went into 1999 several times. I assume this is somehow related to stopping the indifference but I am not quite understanding how - or maybe its related to making the indifference get away from Loid? What is albrecht trying to do? One particular thing that also confused me was how in the whispers in the wall quest we transfer into arthur in 1999 and end up meeting the indifference there. What actually happened at this point because the transference ends there. When we go back to 1999 intentionally are we at the point before this occurs? I guess what I'm asking here is how to make sense of the present

• Why are we following albrecht back to 1999? Is it an implicit assumption that something important happens that allows us to divert the timeline to when the indifference is stopped in the present? Or was it more spelled out for what the specific reason is?

• What actually happened in 1999? My understanding is that there is some sort of technocyte outbreak which is the virus that the modern infestation and all strains originate from. However, I am failing to see if this outbreak is global or specifc to hollvania. Also there were mentions of a boy band, an AI made by digital extremes in lore, a government lockdown and some sort of nuke going off for some reason. Are the scaldra the military that monitors Hollvanias outside areas? When we first go into 1999 it appears that the indifference already possessed (or replaced, tbh idk what happened to the original) Scaldra leader. We play as the hex who I understand to be experiments using the helminth strain that albrecht came back with.

Also, what is the background of the hex? Who were they and how did they end up being experimented on by albrecht? Did they choose to? Why are they fighting the scaldra military?

[silk atlas]

Albrecht mentions it plainly in Whispers that he went to 1999 for the final time to keep Wally away from Loid and the present day, and he expects us to be there "on time" in Loid's words to do whatever we need to do there.

The Techrot outbreak isn't important beyond "it's in Hollvania"

Also most of the Hex background info you learn through the quest and the KIM convos

[tall echo]

the murmur were active before ballas' stunt, they just started to get more active bc wally basically "escaped" the void

[grizzled patrol]

he went multiple times before that final one, what was his goal those times?

[silk atlas]

Creating the Vessels with the people he purposefully Protoframe'd

[fast dew]

We don't know why he went the first time

[silk atlas]

Using their biomass and junk with the Grey Strain to make Big Warframe

[grizzled patrol]

Ah yes I remember now. Was he planning on using those vessels to attack the indifference?

[silk atlas]

Well you saw what we did with them in Whispers

[grizzled patrol]

tbh I didn't really understand it at that moment. Forgive me if it was mentioned as I completed it a while ago but all that I remember from the vessels was near the end of the quest where the indifference possesses one vessel and the drifter possesses the other

can't remember if their significance or purpose was mentioned there

[fast dew]

I'm not sure how Albrecht thought the vessels would work

[pale cedar]

They did work

[silent latch]

This is my understanding but its much simpler than you are probably thinking.

1. Yes New war did something to the indifference
2. 1999 was the original year the technocyte outbreak occurred (The "Plague Year") so Albrecht went there to experiment; he realised he could create transferrence 'copies' of the protoframes based on a different strain of the helminth and that allows precise time travel in a different way
3. The point of Going this time was to trap the indifference in a loop up until the "Bomb" goes off so it can't get to Loid/The present. Since the Indifference would follow Albrect.
4. The use of protoframes has the dual effect of allowing the tenno to go back to the same time and Albrecht figured out that love repels the indifference. So he's setting us up to be the source of that 'love'
5. I think during 1999 only holvania has the techrot and the scaldra are a paramilitary that are trying to contain it, they blame the HEX and Albrect
6. The hex are a mix of paramilitary support sent to help holvania; scientists and journalists (Arthur and Quincy were UK military, Eleanor a journalist, Amir was as scientist; idk why Aoi is there; I think she was military like Arthur; they are special forces so like Military secret agents)

Also, HEX usually means 6 and there are 5 of them so you make the 6th member so you 'complete' the HEX

[strange turtle]

You forgot Lettie

[pale cedar]

No, there’s 6 in the Hex

[silent latch]

you right my bad 😛

[strange turtle]

Lettie, Aoi, Quincy and Arthur were part of Warframe’s equivalent to the UN Peacekeepers

Just more, actually functional, if what I’ve heard is any indication

[pale cedar]

Eleanor was a war reporter

[grizzled patrol]

Ah that clears up most things. Not quite understanding the 2nd point tho. What are you referring to as transference copies? The vessels?

[silent latch]

Right and something weird to me is in this version of 1999 there's no United states since Lettie mentions the country she's from is stil Aztec and has Tenochtitlan as the capital but somehow she still speaks spanish? Tat's confusing.

[strange turtle]

I’m pretty sure they weren’t a straight up/direct equivalent and just a big NGO but I don’t think it’s ever particularly specified

[strange turtle]

There is, Libertatia

[silent latch]

Yes.

[pale cedar]

All of the Hex were somewhat military related except for Amir

[strange turtle]

Poor guy was just an intern at O.R.O for the reactor

[silent latch]

I thought Eleanor was just a journalist that go roped into it.

[pale cedar]

She worked in Warzones

She’s no newbie to it all

[silent latch]

yeah like a war corespondent or embedded reporter.

[strange turtle]

Entrati contacted him and was just straight up like (you need to blah blah it’s really important), and then gave him his injection to take in case he was found out so that he didn’t just get shot dead

[silent latch]

I haven't gotten those KIM messages I guess; but it still doesn't explain the Aztecs still existing but speaking spanish.

[strange turtle]

It’s not just Aztecs but yeah the past doesn’t really get elaborated on much

[narrow pendant]

wouldnt it just be mexico without colonialism

[silk atlas]

Warframe is an alt history compared to our world so get used to that.

[sly ferry]

question: how is protea prime part of the prime vanguard when she was made specifically to be parvos' bodyguard?

and then disappeared with him

[fast dew]

Multiple proteas

[silk atlas]

Because they made more than one

[sly ferry]

primes are canonically 1 of 1 no?

[silent latch]

The alt history part is fine I'm just hung up on how the aztecs swithced to speaking spanish. A lot of words about stuff from Central south america have Aztec roots Like chocolate and guacomoli and tortilla so I guess its kinda similar either way.

[fast dew]

Nup

[sly ferry]

are there any other primes we know there are multiple of?

[silk atlas]

Game's never said anything of the sort. And Parvos got the base form anyway

[pale cedar]

Parvos only asked Prime to be made nothing says he was actually given it

[sly ferry]

did you forget her trailer

[narrow pendant]

the dialogue in her prime trailer is regarding the creation of the original protea, commissioned back in the old war by parvos. Protea prime was ment to be an anniversary gift, but by then parvos' void drive was sabotaged and he was presumed dead, so protea prime stayed in orokin possession and ended up in the vanguard

[strange turtle]

There’s also the “Radiant Khan” (no points for guessing who this one is) who tried to conquer Hollvania at some point

[grizzled patrol]

I'm not sure the vessels have anything to do with the time travel itself. Albrecht himself travelled back in time using that podlike thing he slept in at the beginning of the whispers in the wall quest no?

[sly ferry]

and we know the Prime Trailer is about the non-prime how?

[silk atlas]

Yeah and they never said "I'm the only guy who will have this Warframe". Ballas can just... Go behind his back and make more

[ocean geyser]

Primes are the original designs
designs

[sly ferry]

okay but the lore has never established there being multiple of 1 prime

[strange turtle]

Because he has the non-prime

[silk atlas]

Because Parvos doesn't have the Prime

[narrow pendant]

regular protea is in the granum void with parvos, that and the fact the prime was supposed to be an anniversary gift lets us deduce that

[sly ferry]

and it's also canon that some regular frames are decayed/damaged versions of the primes

[silent latch]

Yes but our first trip to 99 in Whispers was when we used transferrence on the vessel; also our ability to use transference on the HEX is key to us saving the day; getting the good ending and stopping the loop.

[narrow pendant]

this is a case by case situation

[ocean geyser]

Unless protea somehow degraded into her base form while in the void
Which i doubt

Well yeah

[pale cedar]

Parvos only asked for the frame to be made nothing says he was given the Prime

[sly ferry]

where was the anniversary thing mentioned?

[silk atlas]

Yeah but it also never mentioned any of them are one of a kind either. Especially with the Anarchs having multiple of them in their ranks to screw around with.

[sly ferry]

that's a gameplay mechanic. like them being giants

[pale cedar]

Once an original exists
Replicas can be made

[grizzled patrol]

ah right i see. I thought that scene was more about the transference being directed to arthur somhow but i guess it would make more sense for it to somehow be used to direct it to arthur

[sly ferry]

yes. and those replicas are the non-primes

"yea ballas here's my warframe design, keep it and give me the mass produced downgrade"

definitely something parvos would do

[pale cedar]

Not just non Primes

[silent latch]

Yeah its in other lore bits but the male vessels are made from arthur's DNA and the Female one's from Aoi. Its weird thought with Arthur/Eleanor being twins you'd figure its a genetic thing but I guess not.

[grizzled patrol]

Why would there be a time loop up until the bomb goes off?

[sly ferry]

ok where are the prime replicas in lore?

[silk atlas]

You're assuming it would go like that but really it would be Ballas giving him the nonPrime and then going behind his back to cheapen it by making more of them

[pale cedar]

Excalibur Prime Old Peace

Technically Umbra

[sly ferry]

I am really discussing with people who think excal prime = excal umbra

[pale cedar]

That’s not what I said

[sly ferry]

excal prime is technically umbra?

[shut hemlock]

Let's not intentionally escalate emotions here.

[sly ferry]

how

[pale cedar]

I gave 2 examples

[silent latch]

Not really explained yet. From an eternalism standpoint; those sequence of events are tied to Entrati's actions in Holvania so maybe when the bomb goes off it destroys the 'variance' so from that point forward its the 'normal' timeline; So the indifference 'cacthing' Entrati doesn't 'leak' into the wider timeline; the Drifter had to use Duvir powers to reset it at the end; but it also begins with an explosion and a rewind.

[sly ferry]

umbra is not a prime

[silk atlas]

All the other dead Warframes we see around the ground. Nira was a Mag, there were Mag's before in the Old War, ergo there'd have to be multiple. Then just extend that logic to the rest of the Primes because we have no other info on them being unique or not.

[pale cedar]

Hence technically

[sly ferry]

archons were made from fallen warframes and sentients. could easily be the same mag

[silent latch]

If you've seen the Loki D+ show the bomb is like a 'doomsday' event that hides all divergence that would otherwise happen there.

[pale cedar]

He’s an upgraded model to base

[sly ferry]

but still not a prime

[pale cedar]

And you’ve still dodged the fact I also said Excal Prime in Old Peace

[sly ferry]

the 1 single excal prime?

[pale cedar]

Yes

[sly ferry]

is a replica of what

[pale cedar]

An original Excal Prime

[sly ferry]

which is where?

[pale cedar]

Orokin destroyed most original frames

And made replicas after Tenno

[silk atlas]

I'm trying to remember what we're all the dead Warframes on the field in the intro to Old Peace because I can't imagine they didn't have one that wasn't already used elsewhere.

[sly ferry]

and you know excal prime was included in there how?

[grizzled patrol]

For 3. Was the idea of trapping the indifference in a loop explicitly mentioned? If not then it would make more sense that the loop just ends up being the drifter's decision to rewind to before the explosion

[pale cedar]

Because only 2 originals are alive today

[silk atlas]

It wasn't to trap him in a loop, it was to stall time by waiting in a loop he couldn't get in as easily

[grizzled patrol]

yh that seems to make a lot more sense

[shut hemlock]

Was actually just looking at the cutscene in the new war with erra and natah. Theres a dead excal prime, mag prime, and nova prime.

[grizzled patrol]

in the wiki it mentions:

"After building up relationships with the rest of the Hex, the Drifter is able to intervene in the events in the reactor on New Years Eve, preventing the deaths of all of the Hex, and successfully defusing the threat, completing the Kalymos Sequence."

Is this something that occurs while ranking up with The Hex?

[sly ferry]

nova was the only dead one. excal and mag were fighting

[pale cedar]

R3 with all 6

[shut hemlock]

That was the scene directly before

[pale cedar]

Albrecht says at the end you have to get to know them

[silent latch]

Yeah; Albrech shows you it is inside the scaldra leader and that "the bomb MUST go off"

[sly ferry]

you mean excal and mag are there when erra cracks varzia's helmet?

[silk atlas]

Screenshot? I don't wanna scrub through the whole quest for that on YT lol

Whoops wrong reply

But if it's a not dead Excal then that just lends more credence to it being a different one from the clearly dead one on Tau since the whole Erra stuff then was after the Old War if I'm remembering the timeline right

[shut hemlock]

Nova is a little bit further on in this pan shot.

[strange turtle]

Which ones

[silk atlas]

But like, yeah they've made more than one of each Prime, Protea Prime could have just been Ballas screwing with Parvos because he hated him and especially hated having to work with him.

[sly ferry]

as I understood protea was on that list cuz parvos mentions her being a "specter of her former self" after she used all her power to save him

but apparently not?

[pale cedar]

Uriel is proof multiple of a frame can be made

[strange turtle]

That wasn’t because she was a prime that’s because she was literally a Specter

[sly ferry]

yes. regular replicas

[silk atlas]

Yeah but we're talking Primes specifically here

Which people keep thinking is somehow different

[strange turtle]

Like the stuff they have in the Rail Junctions and the Specter Particle hyped up and added in that quest

[silk atlas]

Especially when we get the blueprints of the Prime junk from Relics which I think is mega weird in this regard if they were just one-offs.

Why would they have a blueprint if they didn't bother making more of them

[pale cedar]

Watch someone call that gameplay not lore

[fast dew]

Only a few primes were one off. We can assume there was only 1 xaku prime

[shut hemlock]

If there is only one of each prime, then excal prime is your frame in the old peace, you are the one fighting that sentient before the Erra cutscene and are saved by mag, and then in the next scene your warframe is way underground dead, next to mag, while you are doing your thing next to Natah. That'd just be bad continuity.

[silk atlas]

Xaku Prime is no more special than any other frame in that regard. When one is made, they'd digitize it and make the blueprints for it

Xaku was a freak accident but they made blueprints of them just fine. Hell, we got Roathe blueprints because we simply memory'd hard enough

[fast dew]

Im sayin they weren't built in the same explicit purpose for mass production 😭

[silk atlas]

"mass production" is also not whats happening here, they just made more than one of them.

[fast dew]

As in they became a prime then those blueprints were copied from Xaku

[silk atlas]

You can make more of a thing and not have it be mass production

It's not one or the other

[pale cedar]

Nothing in game even calls it mass production

[fast dew]

https://tenor.com/view/wtf-cat-cat-meme-stare-stare-meme-stare-cat-gif-8092498106572219881

[silk atlas]

And they'd only need to make one frame for each Tenno they have, with any more being a liability unless they really like the kid for some reason and they get to do double duty

[sly ferry]

apparently gauss. "this particular one vaguely warped by extreme heat stress." - leverian

[pale cedar]

There’s not enough Tenno to even try mass producing them plus the fact Helminth constantly restoring frames even less reason to mass produce

[sly ferry]

the 10-0 was a massive colony ship. plenty of tenno

[strange plinth]

vaguely is the keyword there
not enough to degrade from prime to regular

[shut hemlock]

Not proof that theres more that one of most primes, but this shot is implies that there are many more of these pods, so i do think its kinda wild if it was one frame per tenno

[silk atlas]

I mean just assigning a frame per Tenno, not that they made one unique one for each Tenno

So yeah there'd be people running duplicates

[strange plinth]

you get a rhino and you get a rhino and you get a rhino

[shut hemlock]

Ahhh gotcha. So yeah I agree

[pale cedar]

You’re only taking children into account not all the other people on board

[shut hemlock]

Oh they all went crazy

[pale cedar]

Not all of them

[shut hemlock]

I guess i just dont remember anything about adults making it off the Zariman 10-0. Maybe im forgetting something?

[silk atlas]

"massive" in the context of us being a civilization that only lives on Earth. We are talking about an entire solar system of people here. It's unknown how many Tenno are exactly on the ship, but the fact they're not just swamping the entire solar system with their power suggests they're far less in number than the main enemy factions.

[strange plinth]

the parents went mad
non-parent adults didn't, or at least, it took much longer for them to go mad
but all of the adults died, yes

[silk atlas]

They all went insane and died. Ones without kids didn't go insane but they did die in some form or another

[shut hemlock]

Ahh ok thank you both for the clarification

[silk atlas]

Then got resurrected as Void ghosts as the Holdfasts

[iron tiger]

Do you think Wally made them mad or was a more “natural” part of the void

[sly ferry]

grineer are endless horde of clones and corpus have an endless supply of drones and robots. ofc they outnumber us

[strange plinth]

..and then succumbed to the voidsong and became angels

[strange plinth]

wally says he did in isleweaver stuff iirc

[shut hemlock]

Oh yeah. I played that quest shortly after a long hiatus and the whole thing felt like a fever dream and I had no idea what happened by the end of it. Makes sense that I would have missed all that

[silk atlas]

"Void madness" is considered to be a thing that doesn't involve Wally directly (Chains of Harrow mentioning the madness and Albrecht's logs mentioning no one else saw him for the longest time)

[iron tiger]

Damn he really set himself up there, the murals in the labs also imply the Zariman was caught by Wally too. Everything was orchestrated as soon as the Zariman made the jump

[strange plinth]

on Velimir's body
-# "The adults turned on us. Did you do that?"
-# "The parents turned on you," the Queen corrected them graciously, prompted by the Glory that enveloped her. "The rest of the adults were spared. At first."
-# The Orphan snarled up at her. "You can't bear it, can you? Anything good, anything wholesome, even the bond between a parent and child! You corrupt it all!"

[silk atlas]

Well, yeah, hence why the number of Tenno even on a "massive" colony ship isn't really that crazy

[fast dew]

Watch, some people roathe will assume Albrecht planned it

[iron tiger]

😨

[fast dew]

He already assumes ||Rulsalka being possessed was planned by Albrecht||

[pale cedar]

I planned it

[shut hemlock]

||I literally came here to ask people's takes on Roathe saying that Wally is a product of Entratis mind and how i think roathe is kinda full of it||

[iron tiger]

That doesn’t really make sense though albrecht was terrified of what he saw

[fast dew]

Mm. Well, it does seem to lean on that side. Conceptual embodiment. And all.

[fast dew]

Yeah, people don't make sense sometimes.

[pale cedar]

It’s literally the concept DE are heavily pushing for he didn’t come up with the idea

[fast dew]

Like that time someone tried to convince me Loid used Kuva

[shut hemlock]

Well that would be kinda a lame reveal :(

[pale cedar]

Roathe saying it is basically DE confirming it even more

[strange plinth]

its a fairly common theory
personally i think its half-right. some elements are correct and others not.
roathe said i was entrenched in propaganda, for whatever that's worth

[pale cedar]

We’ve had Albrecht creating Wally since 2023

[fast dew]

Could he? Sure. Would that put him at incredible amounts of danger that im not sure Albrecht would put him in? Yes absolutely.

[iron tiger]

Bruh what even is kuva it can’t be Wally blood can it?

[strange plinth]

they kad kuva before they had the void, can't be

[fast dew]

Its just something that allows transference of consciousness. It predates wally too

[strange turtle]

Yeah I think it is CE to a degree but also that there was just already something or somethings there to be shaped

[iron tiger]

That’s what I was thinking and yet the void seems rather full of it

[shut hemlock]

Where from? Is it through implications or explicit?

[pale cedar]

3. What is 'kuva'?

A. Fluid with Void-derived capacity to conduct consciousness (correct)

B. The liquid remnants of departed Orokin saints

[fast dew]

Has something to do with the void, but not related to Albrecht

[iron tiger]

Could it be that it’s ability to conduct consciousness plays a key role in the voids conceptual embodiment

[fast dew]

Well, the operator report certainly says it, but only as a "maybe"

[pale cedar]

Sythel: "The first scholar looked into the Void and he feared it. And his fear took shape. Do you understand? That's how all this started."

Albrecht in 2024 directly says “only hope to contain this horror I have created”

[strange turtle]

What if they just used Kuva in the copying of the fingers

[grizzled patrol]

why does the indifference following albrecht into 1999?

[strange turtle]

Hates him

[pale cedar]

Each update literally adds more to the Wally was made by CE

[fast dew]

Wants to kill him

[strange plinth]

wants its finger back, albrecht is its best lead
also what the other two said lol

[fast dew]

Many reasons

Mainly to get his ass

[strange turtle]

Wait no because then there’s the Duviri kuva thing

[iron tiger]

But judging by the bleeding earth CE needs, uses or contains kuva beyond it’s initial formation

[fast dew]

Ngl I don't think Albrecht built the railjack finger things.

[pale cedar]

Nah it works independently of Kuva

[ocean geyser]

I didn’t think it was implied that he did?

[grizzled patrol]

I see. In the whispers in the walls we see arthur meet the indifference before it cuts away. When we intentionally go back to 1999 as the drifter are we going to a point before this point?

[fast dew]

Nah like. The void having the ability to access memories like kuva does

[iron tiger]

Then why did the earth bleed in duviri?

[strange turtle]

Yes

[strange plinth]

arthur meets the indifference at the end of that loop
we show up in the middle of the loop iirc?
its still just the last day of the year then

[strange turtle]

As Loid said, we need to be on time, next time

So instead of the literally very very end of the year, we go a bit before then

[pale cedar]

Kuva isn’t literally blood

[fast dew]

Well, he made void travel, so folk assume that he did the ones on the railjack. But, it seems that he only did the ones on the zariman, based on the appearance of the tech

[strange turtle]

Not in the middle, we’re only there for a little bit before the reactors about to go off

[fast dew]

Something something the entrati family can't arrive on time without his help

[iron tiger]

Captain obvious I knew that its obviously a metaphor

[grizzled patrol]

ah right. And the loop itself. Is the loop something that albrecht knew would occur when he travelled back in time, or was it something he somehow intentionally created, or was it unintentional?

[fast dew]

Fairy tale book

[strange turtle]

Loid watching the Entrati walk out to greet him covered in algae, animal fur, oil and weird void slime after he and Albrecht went on vacation

[iron tiger]

I’m slow but not that slow

[strange plinth]

oh wait its at the start of the loop
the quest starts with a "REACTOR INCIDENT IN 24 HRS 59 MINS", we pop out of the helminth like 10 minutes after
yes, we're missing for a good portion of the loop, but that's when we arrive

[strange turtle]

Created, yes, we don’t know how tho

[iron tiger]

Fairy tale? Are you implying that the kuva there was a CE a part of the story?

[fast dew]

Loid looks at Vilcor and sees the missing arm and just doesn't question it 😭

[grizzled patrol]

so we know it was created but we dont know if its done intentionally or not by albrecht?

[iron tiger]

Wait how’d he lose that arm? During the old war?

[fast dew]

Duviri is based on a series of Tales written by a orokin. Euleria Entrati specifically. She could've just wrote that as something in the book

[strange turtle]

We know it was intentional

[fast dew]

.. daughter cut/blew it off

[shut hemlock]

So another dumb question: so Wally is a manifestation of Albrecht's fear upon entering the void. The manifestation of his fear of course trys to get him, as these things do, so he ran away. So what has made Wally so damn powerful, and why is he so fascinated by us specifically as well? When I heard Roathe saying Wally was a product of Entrati, I took it to mean hes a monster that Entrati dreamt up and then got out of hand. Like the Drifter and Duviri. that is the part that seems silly to me, since Duviri was a specific place we had imagined, and Wally would have to be... the worst case scenario fear Albrecht had? But I could see Entrati being a catalyst for the snowball that became Wally.

[grizzled patrol]

do you know where this was mentioned?

[shut hemlock]

Sorry for the paragraph there

[pale cedar]

Pulled it off

[iron tiger]

Damn I knew that family was dysfunctional but I didn’t realize it was that bad

[fast dew]

Mother also stabbed vilcor multiple times :)

[dark compass]

That's why bonewidow has an exalted blade

[strange plinth]

daughter removed the arm with the claw that he gave her
mother stabbed him several times with a seriglass shard, which is where the rest of the damage comes from

[dark compass]

[fast dew]

We don't fully know why he's so powerful, but we do know why he likes us. We made a deal :)

[fast dew]

HA

[iron tiger]

That is a possibility but given that someone drank it and ended up connected to Wally makes it unlikely

[fast dew]

Vilcor and being assaulted by every woman in the entrati family 💔

[strange turtle]

We don’t know, but in and out of universe a prevailing theory is that it’s conceptual embodiment, something that was already there or both, shaped by Albrecht and his negative mental state

[shut hemlock]

But see there were so many kids on that ship. Why did he take on our appearance and ask for a deal with us specifically?

[fast dew]

Ehh. We know void is connected to quite literally everything with Wally, not super surprising if it had some void contamination

[iron tiger]

I love the word seriglass, it sounds so cool and mystical

[grizzled patrol]

well one person had to be asked no?

[strange plinth]

we were.. unique, to him. in some way
its literally main character syndrome i wouldn't question it too much

[fast dew]

We are unique, i suppose.

[pale cedar]

How bout this

Albrecht disappeared causing Mother to have a bunch of issues

Grandmother decided to cause a traffic jam and turn off all Void tech including frames because of the other members of family

Mother stabbed Father for saying stuff she didn’t want to hear

Son Infested the family by breaking quarantine

Daughter wasn’t even supposed to be there but had to see the action

[shut hemlock]

Yeah, that makes sense to me. I think i made up implications from what roathe was saying

[fast dew]

Reminder though, Roathe is not a void scientist. He might not know or understand certain aspects.

[shut hemlock]

Fair, though at the same time I feel like something like Wally wouldnt pit all its chips in one basket

[iron tiger]

Yo what’s your favorite word unique to the warframe universe

[strange plinth]

roathe walks in to the labs, reads about wally on the POM-2, says 'nah.', and then goes about his day

[shut hemlock]

Yeah, hes also very prideful and unlikely to admit hes wrong at any point (at least from where im at with him). And given that your only dialog options are to disagree with him, it seemed to me like the narrative purpose of the interaction was in large part to demonstrate his stubbornness. But of course, it could have a lot of purposes

[iron tiger]

He wasn’t an executor either right?

[strange turtle]

Nope

He was in service to one though

[iron tiger]

Nitokh yeah?

[pale cedar]

He was Vice Regent

[iron tiger]

That name sounds kind of grineer now that I look at it

Grineer need an origin story I want to know who was cloned

[strange plinth]

its more.. brutish than the other executors, yes.
i imagine that's on purpose, given how she acts

[strange plinth]

the one grineer that killed a sentient in the mines
lancer synthesis. a grineer worker kills a sentient with what is, essentially, a shovel. and they take a sample to use for the soldiers
as for who was cloned originally for the workers, that isn't known
but the second guy is the one that really matters for the modern grineer

[dark compass]

Me

[iron tiger]

Indeed a lot of cacophony, it suits her as she’s worse than Ballas apparently

[fast dew]

That's just orokin behaviour. Refuse to admit they're wrong. Which is why Albrecht saying he is making mistakes is so wild

[iron tiger]

I love when the female villains are warmongers we don’t get enough of that

[fast dew]

We really don't, and its sad

[iron tiger]

I know they do it with such style too

Bombs a city -> Applies makeup

[fast dew]

Well. Lowkey Albrecht kinda does that

People forget he wears purple eyeliner lol

[iron tiger]

He has fashion and but his makeup game is not it

[fast dew]

Look! Purple!

[iron tiger]

Those golden fingernails looked so yucky

[pale cedar]

Rare Orokin self awareness

[fast dew]

Also why is his lips ourple is he okay

[strange turtle]

He was eating purpleberries

They’re like the warframe version of blueberries, but even more purple

There isn’t any running water in the zone he was in so he couldn’t wash up

[iron tiger]

What about the female grineer, that seems important given the fact they are a matriarchal society

[fast dew]

Eww lmao

[fast dew]

The orokin had no qualms with matriarchal families, but they did if you were twins.

[strange turtle]

Presumably there was another woman grineer who also did well, so they cloned her too

[iron tiger]

One time blueberries made my piss purple

Such an odd day that was

[strange turtle]

How many did you eat

[dark compass]

https://tenor.com/view/help-for-honor-black-stone-got-you-gif-16225328

Apollyon my beloved

[iron tiger]

Like a whole container

[strange turtle]

How big was the container

Like a normal small one or like, grape punnet sized

[iron tiger]

Maybe like a 5x5x1

Turned it into a smoothie

[iron tiger]

That’s not interesting enough 😭

[strange turtle]

Uh

There was a woman grineer who was cracked with a sniper, ran out of ammo, moved onto a machine gun to soften them up, and then when that ran out and she was surrounded by Sentient fragments she started slashing with her plasma blade until she was reduced to this thing?

[iron tiger]

Hmm ok that’s acceptable

[dawn shoal]

well i mean by virtue of not knowing what Kuva actually is, we don't really know this for sure, but i can't say you're wrong at all because for all we know it could just as easily if not more easily not be blood at all.
we just know that Teshin thinks there's a little bit of truth to both the belief that it's a corrupted deadly poison of ancient Orokin (which I think he says is blood?") and an elixir of immortality (which i believe he references as sacred?) at the same time. and obviously Teshin wouldn't have been told the secrets of Kuva as a dax lol.

[pale cedar]

3. What is 'kuva'?

A. Fluid with Void-derived capacity to conduct consciousness (correct)

[iron tiger]

I think he wants to understand how it’s made and what with rather than what it does

[dawn shoal]

oh yeah i'm not arguing against that, sorry.
to be clear i mean we don't know what specifically that "fluid" is, so i mean if could be a fluid that maybe is or involves blood, but it could just as easily if not more so only be referred as blood as a metaphor

anyways my main concern with kuva lore has become less what specifically makes it up and more what the deal is behind its relation to the Void, and ability to give continuity through transference, as something that was clearly used by the Orokin long before albrecht discovered the power of the Void itself.
and like, did anyone know that the void was where kuva got its power before? was that discovered later as people used albrechts discovery to invent new things? its both frightening and fascinating to me as a lore point.

[pale cedar]

Void derived doesn’t actually mean it comes from the Void it means Void is used when doing stuff with it

[strange turtle]

They believed the Void was, well, a void, empty, formless and useless, until Albrecht’s breakthrough so it would’ve been after

[strange turtle]

Yeah thats what they’re saying

[pale cedar]

That’s about all we know really

[dawn shoal]

yeah, i don't disagree, i just mean that i'm curious as to what its story of origin is if it, as a void-connected substance, wasn't invented by orokin scientists or albrecht as a result of his discovery.
i am not explaining myself very clearly today, i'm sorry 😅

[pale cedar]

Teshin wouldn’t really know as he’s generally not smart when it comes to Void matters

[dawn shoal]

very true

[pale cedar]

He would’ve at best witnessed Orokin swapping bodies

Not how the Kuva did it

[ashen pulsar]

We probably know a lot more than he does about the lore of this game

[dawn shoal]

the descriptions of continuity ceremonies, or at least of tuvul's last one in voruna's lore, seem to imply there's something truly ancient, even to pre-orokin humanity, about it. and that makes me very excited to find out more someday

[pale cedar]

Teshin is a very unreliable narrator in general he’s been wrong like 4 times

[dawn shoal]

rip Teshin's judgement 😭

at least he means well for us

[ashen pulsar]

he’s wrong, but he’s got the spirit

[dawn shoal]

honestly that's what we need as Tenno in this story a lot of the time when we wake up in an unfamiliar time without any of our memories and very few friends to be found XD

[sly ferry]

did I gaslight myself into believing you could do the glassmaker detective missions for fun after it ended? I know the nightwave thing where you go fight but I was sure you could do the 5 detective things too

[nova sequoia]

gotta make sure

does our ship have another way to get into it?

like, do we ever see another door

im pretty new, but i have only ever seen the tenno get into the ship via that flipping door on the bottom

[ashen pulsar]

that’s not the orbiter. that’s your landing craft.

we’ve never seen the inside of a landing craft

afaik

and no, I don’t think landing crafts have another entrance. I know the orbiter has at least one entrance, through the railjack door at the bottom of the stairs, but I don’t know if there’s any others for it

[grizzled patrol]

When we rewind back to the start of 1999, how do the hex know the drifter?

And lore wise is the drifter permanently stuck in the loop unable to return to the real world or are we able to to return

[pale cedar]

We don’t

The start Drifter wasn’t even there

[fading mist]

smh,galasta could've just tell us the truth, then we can figure out a way to overthrow the orokin together and make a deal with the sentient factions

[grizzled patrol]

I'm confused, we rewind to the stsrt of the year no?

[ashen pulsar]

we’ve returned for isleweaver

drifter stays by choice

[pale cedar]

The very start of the quest Drifter wasn’t in 1999 only showing up in the duel segment

[ashen pulsar]

I think they’re talking about every 4 weeks

[pale cedar]

Oh

[strange turtle]

No

[strange turtle]

The ability to return is mentioned multiple times in the KIM, an entire gameplay node+ Operation rely on it, snd there’s just no reason why they would be

[ashen pulsar]

if operator is the one who does dark refractory why does drifter get to chat with the triad

[strange turtle]

The Drifter is somehow able to bring them back with their memories too, though they can also choose to let them forget loops

[grizzled patrol]

ah i see

[pale cedar]

Drifter does one half
Operator does the other

[ashen pulsar]

oh drifter does descendia?

[pale cedar]

Yes

[strange turtle]

The drifter also goes dark refractory for Descendia, and is the main one doing it triaf stuff, they just chose to put the operator in the “blood of perita” message for some reason

[pale cedar]

Operator is Rebellion

[grizzled patrol]

not quite understanding if the drifter chooses to remain in 1999 tho

or if he can go back to the orbiter and the real world

[ashen pulsar]

ofc, drifter wouldn’t remember perita

[strange turtle]

…it gets mentioned in a bunch of voicelines and the KIMs. They’re even the one to show up when you select it

[ashen pulsar]

I know it just went over my head cuz I always use drifter

[pale cedar]

Drifter directly leaves 1999 for Isleweaver

[strange turtle]

They can come and go from 1999 as they please, but canonically they like to hang with the Hex

[ashen pulsar]

is there a lore reason we can just pull things out of peoples’ memories

[pale cedar]

Drifter in KIM says they might have to do other things but will come back

[ashen pulsar]

ours and roathe’s

[pale cedar]

When do we pull stuff out of our memory?

[strange turtle]

They mean the resources we get

[ashen pulsar]

agnovidiscs, I forget the other two materials

[pale cedar]

Duviri resources?

[ashen pulsar]

no?

perita

[pale cedar]

Just gameplay really

Could say for rebellion we picked it up and held onto it ig

[ashen pulsar]

laudavi, servoris, prime parts, hypercores, lyroic bridges, ascaris p, mods and arcanes, random credits or endo

[fading mist]

hmm is Amar a wolf type of sentient, or is it an individual sentient name?

[ashen pulsar]

we actually have an infinite stockpile of it but we forgot where we hid it and occasionally remember some of it

[ashen pulsar]

one beast, amar the wolf

[fading mist]

hm

[ashen pulsar]

or bloom guardian amar, his title on perita

[fading mist]

how did he even get in the hands of the narmer though

[ashen pulsar]

his head was attached to a rhino prime by erras or someone

[ashen pulsar]

he died

[fading mist]

who even brings a head across systems bruh

[ashen pulsar]

and presumably erra @fast dew and @dark compass found his head and sharded it to a rhino prime

[fast dew]

Me

[dark compass]

meeeee :3333

[fading mist]

so was there 1 or 2 or 3 massive sentients originally?

[ashen pulsar]

mb looks like my lore was wrong

[ashen pulsar]

idk what you mean by massive

[dark compass]

the big ones

like praghasa

or the grandpa hunhow

[fading mist]

there was originally few amounts of giant sentients, we know one was on tau to terraform with its fragments, but they ate the blooms and became a new faction that went with the orokin

but what even was hunhow's role...

[ashen pulsar]

at least 3 we know of, those two and the eidolon

[fast dew]

Actually you guys what does this thing say? Cuz its obviously related to Albrecht i gotta know

[fading mist]

so... 4?
phragasa, hunhow, the one on tau and the one that attacked cetus?

[ashen pulsar]

if you mean the hunhullus that’s like a mech

[fading mist]

not hunhullus

[ashen pulsar]

which one on tau

the dactolyst?

[fading mist]

I dont know, but at least its fragments are on tau to terraform , but they ate the xenoflora

[ashen pulsar]

huh?

[fading mist]

there's always one least 1 giant sentient that fragments itself into the tiny ones to do the job, it got called "hivemind" in the old peace

[spice wedge]

How would sentients look if infection takes them over.

[grizzled patrol]

Does whether or not the hollvania blows up have no effect on the present time?

[fading mist]

infested dont work on sentients

or else they didn't have needed the tenno to fight back, since they were losing before we appeared

[pale cedar]

Only an Infested Bomb has ever “worked” on the Sentients

[grizzled patrol]

and happened in the first few loops before we start the 1999 quest?

coz i think its implied that the drifter went through a couple loops before right?

[ashen pulsar]

not significantly nevermind it’s just no

[pale cedar]

Loop is self contained

[fading mist]

the 1999 has been looping for quite a while before the drifter went there

[grizzled patrol]

with every loop resulting in the explosion right?

[fading mist]

yes

[pale cedar]

Even the Techrot just waited till present day before showing back up

[fading mist]

well until the finale happeneed

[grizzled patrol]

the finale i heard still loops

[ashen pulsar]

how far away do you gotta go to exit the loop

[fading mist]

it still loops, but there's at least one of it didn't explode

[grizzled patrol]

Do the loops after you stop the explosion all result in no explosion?

[strange turtle]

Yeah

It gets like, a single off-hand mention I think

[pale cedar]

Each loop we change things

[grizzled patrol]

on kim?

[grizzled patrol]

reason i asked that one was because of how it implied that the drifter kept going through the loop and not killing ruselka

[fading mist]

rusalka isn't exactly.... there

she has been missing

[grizzled patrol]

i mean the indifference ig

since shes been possessed

[fading mist]

like, her existence, just isn't in 1999

[strange turtle]

No thats what they mean, shes gone from 199

[strange turtle]

Yeah

[grizzled patrol]

oh wait what

[strange turtle]

Wally just popped her out and took her to Duviri for Islweaver

[fading mist]

ever since the altered loop when we did the quest, she has been missing

[pale cedar]

You get a mail saying she’s gone which then we find out where she went in Isleweaver

[fading mist]

mann I want to swap back to lotus instead of margulis 😭

[pale cedar]

You can change skins

[grizzled patrol]

So the quest shows the altered loop right? What did the events of that day look like for prior loops and what did we do differently in the altered loop we do in the quest?

[fading mist]

the names and dialogues cannot be changed back to lotus ones

[cunning tapir]

yeah, no takebacksies on the identity Lotus chooses for herself.

[pale cedar]

Margulis was a bad option tbh

[fading mist]

not so sure, what exactly changed because we never get to see what originally happened

well, natah is just wraith and just
lotus is fight on
and margulis is all about healing

still very confused by the "aid others" in the old peace...

I wonder whats the range of xenoflora... is it harmful to tenno or grineer?

[strange turtle]

People can use the blue ghost thing to get buffs depending on the focus school

[fading mist]

but what buff exactly...

[dawn shoal]

I think it's the same ones per each school that we see when we do the regular mode and choose schools from the dark refractory menu

[pale cedar]

It has no known side affects or anything for non Sentients we also don’t know much about it as it was only recently introduced before being destroyed

[fading mist]

well, there are lore pieces in the minigame
something on tau are harmful to humans and warframe, but Im not sure which one is which

[pale cedar]

We didn’t seem affected in Old Peace tbh

[strange turtle]

You’re thinking of two different things

[dawn shoal]

The atmosphere is unbreathable to humans (at least in Perita and presumably the other worlds they stepped foot on) and there's some kind of radiation that affects transference for tennis and their warframes

[fading mist]

I think its
some radiation thats causing tenno to fuse with warframes under the egg
and xeno is also doing something else

[fading mist]

iirc xenoflora is the thing causing the atmosphere unliveable

[dawn shoal]

*Tenno

[dawn shoal]

Honestly its an alien planet and could be anything, but it's likely that the atmosphere needed to stay toxic to humans to keep the xenoflora alive, which would help explain why Galastra and others would have wanted it gone

Along with reigniting the war

[fading mist]

I wonder, why couldn't the tenno and galastra just team up, and make a deal with the sentients to make at least areas liveable for humans exclusively

since we're not dax, we can kill orokin

[ocean geyser]

I don’t think that would be as easy as you’d assume

[dawn shoal]

Galastra clearly has some bigoted feelings towards and ideas of Sentients, on top of that it's heavily implied that she is backed by an Executor Orokin who is scheming against all the others and benefits from preventing that potential alliance.

[fading mist]

well, in roathe kim, nitohk are trying to rid the other executors, but we could've just team up, even for a bit

I guess its just about orokin pride and greed

[dawn shoal]

I still think that would only have worked if the Tenno fully realized just how bad the Orokin were before their character arc led them there in this quest.

So yeah, Orokin pride and greed.

[fading mist]

is galastra grineer or orokin?

[strange turtle]

It’s not that Xenoflora makes the atmosphere liveable, it’s that only xenoflora finds the atmosphere liveable

[fading mist]

what

[strange turtle]

It’s an alien planet

[dawn shoal]

I thought she was Grineer at first but then I took a closer look at her in the final cutscenes in the Egg and I think she's actually a Dax, her armor looks like Varzia's Lark Bishamo

[strange turtle]

Humans can’t handle it because it doesn’t have an earth atmosphere

[fading mist]

no I mean, your sentence... says xeno is making it liveable, and also xeno finds it liveable

[pale cedar]

Grineer

[strange turtle]

I said that it’s the other way around

[fading mist]

so she was under nitohk' orders then

[strange turtle]

It’s not that xeno makes it liveable, it’s that xeno is the only thing that finds it liveable

[ocean geyser]

They’re saying that the plant isn’t making the atmosphere toxic, it’s just the only thing there that can handle said atmosphere

They said unliveable, THEN liveable

[strange turtle]

It’s the only thing that can survive there because it’s the natural environment, it’s not like earth

[dawn shoal]

Xenoflora evolved for Tau's atmosphere and was being cultivated on Perita as well it seemed, and the atmosphere it thrived in was one that humans could not breathe, and presumably one that humans can breathe is not on the xenoflora taublooms can survive.

[fading mist]

hmm does it also grows on perita, or could there be more on tau...

[ocean geyser]

Meadows blue of velvet lie….

[ocean geyser]

Perita is where we first find them?

[proven spire]

why don't they just find another planet are they stupid

[dawn shoal]

I'd presume it comes from Tau or a planet in that system, since the flowers on Perita sounded like they were all under Sentient horticulture attention when Itzam speaks of them to Ballas

[fading mist]

I mean, we dont really know how many of tau was explored yet

[ocean geyser]

Ngl the idea that xenoflora can only handle tau’s atmosphere makes sense when all the ones in Tauron are behind glass terrariums

[fading mist]

wait but if its in glass cases, how is it getting the air

[ocean geyser]

Hidden pipe or something idk

There’s a lot of room for things like that

[dawn shoal]

They presumably need to work to cultivate them, and whether there were any other sources of the flower in the Tau system that weren't affected by Ballas' betrayal, the supply supporting the Sentients on Perita still got screwed and ruined their ability to hold that planet against Galastra, especially with the whole of the Orokin against them again.

[ocean geyser]

Like even the pedestals are tall as hell, plenty of room to stuff plant AC in there

[woven coyote]

Wdym "also"? Its literally the only place on tau we have seen so far

[proven spire]

isn't that what the sentients are for? to terraform planets for the orokin

but no they just had to evolve a conscience

typical

[ocean geyser]

Sentients when cool flower

[dawn shoal]

According to a trailer from around Tennocon's ending screen, there are at least two terrestrial planets, Perita, one other moon orbiting one terrestrial planet, and a big ahh gas giant in that system, if not a fourth terrestrial world implied by the merch art. It sounds like more than enough for the Sentients to have explored by the time Old Peace occurs to me.

[fading mist]

there was the one giant sentient that fragments itself to terraform, but they was also at war with orokin afterwards, it was sending the framgnets to war, but they ate the flowers and became individual sentients, then they went under orokin to create the treaty

[fading mist]

well, perita is only a moon... wonder how big tau really is

[ocean geyser]

Does this mean if we gave like
The fragments of the eidolons, hunhow, and the like some flowers
They’d become their own fellas?

[dawn shoal]

If Tau is at least inspired by Tau Ceti irl, it's probably a very large super earth (as in larger Earthlike planet, as opposed to the specific one from Helldivers lol)

[ocean geyser]

Gotta wonder why some sentients naturally have their own individuality

[fading mist]

yes, but only if we can find the flowers first since we accidently wiped out a large chunk of them

[woven coyote]

Not being fragments i guess

[ocean geyser]

Fair enough i suppose

[dawn shoal]

Maybe? I theorize that Eidolons are an effect caused by crossing the Void through the solar rail and losing the Flowers both, but that sounds possible. Hunhow is kinda already his own guy though, it sounds like he's always been towards the top of the hive mind and in charge, at least since he was cut off from Tau.

[woven coyote]

Also could just be another adaptation after ballas gets rid of the flowers

[fading mist]

wait a second, then who is natah's originally from nvm phagasa

[ocean geyser]

Aren’t Eidolons canonically zombie sentients
I thought this was well established

[woven coyote]

Yep

[fading mist]

well, technically zombie-fragments of one of the original giant sentients I guess

[ocean geyser]

I mean
Any sentient can become an eidolon yk

[woven coyote]

Eidolon lotus, it doesnt have to be a fragment

[ocean geyser]

Yeah

[dawn shoal]

Their hive mind is more one of command structure and purpose within than unified Borg with no individuality, and most of the individuals we've met are at the top, like Hunhows family.

[fading mist]

no I mean, the one on plains of eidolon

[ocean geyser]

Well yeah
But i mainly meant eidolons as a whole

[fading mist]

so eidolon just means... zombie form of sentients? I guess?

[woven coyote]

That's what is established in the new war with eidolotus as far as i understand

[dawn shoal]

Yes but I'm saying the reason they become that way is something that I don't think happened till the Void crossing got involved; the Dactolyst and ||Adis|| definitely died and did not become Eidolons. The Dactolyst even bled out at least in the demo

[ocean geyser]

I think it depends on how they “die”

[dawn shoal]

That's a possibility, but it is suggested that they did not use the flowers until after the war had started.

[fading mist]

hmm is amar and dactolyst a fragment?

and do the sentients need constantly fed by xenoflora to keep their conscious on...

[woven coyote]

That was in regards to sentients with natural individuality such as hunhow, lotus, erra

[fading mist]

still a bit confused on lotus and erra, how are they an "individual"

[woven coyote]

Why not?

[fading mist]

wouldn't they be fragments?

[woven coyote]

Doesnt look like it no

[dawn shoal]

No, just to keep from falling under the uncontrollable command of higher ranking Sentients by reconnecting to the hive mind.

[woven coyote]

Natah even is "queen of the mimics"

[fading mist]

but how aboul erra

[dawn shoal]

That's a fair point, I suppose, it's hard to be sure.

[woven coyote]

Considering he sees natah as his sister they would be at least same rank the way i see it

[fading mist]

bleh, this quest dropped such a big lore bomb

[strange turtle]

We know they’re the kids of Praghasa and Hunhow which inherently means they can’t be fragments, since we know Sentient reproduction and fragment making are different

[woven coyote]

Tho with their nature i supose it wouldnt be impossible for a fragment to adapt individuality

[dawn shoal]

I think the only real "fragments" are the Eidolons and vomvalysts on the Plains, every other Sentient was created or born as an individual sentient, whether part of the hive mind, or not if the flowers are involved.

[woven coyote]

Nah they are called out as drones in a few lines

Fragments really dont seem to be born individuals without the xenoflora

[dawn shoal]

They are born of each other and are connected without the flowers, but that doesn't mean they aren't whole units unto themselves either way imo.

[fading mist]

right, completely forgor the sentients being reproductable until they touch the void.... so like, how do they breed is the real question

[woven coyote]

Well erra mentions the manifold when talking about what we can only assume is natahs birth

[dawn shoal]

Drone and fragment aren't synonyms? Honey bee drones are I think the closest comparison and they are not fragments, even if bees had a telepathic hive mind

[woven coyote]

Granted the leeway of his zombie ram head

[woven coyote]

The distinction seems to be wether they are actually made in this "manifold" or just fragmenting off of larger sentients

[dawn shoal]

Yeah when the source is a double zombie,,

[dawn shoal]

Okay yeah I agree

[strange turtle]

They quite literally have to be fragments, because they continue to be made in the Origin system, when the Sentients who are there can’t reproduce anymore

[woven coyote]

Like natah has a self without xenoflora, we know she was born in the manifold

The conculysts hunhow sends after us are his fragments which he calls drones

[strange turtle]

They also don’t match up to anything that we see of the individual ones

[dawn shoal]

But I'm still not sure if they're fragmenting off that it would make them entirely just fragments inherently, just physically, while also being capable of full individual choice given a flower or lack of a higher ranking sentient.

[woven coyote]

Well lack of a higher sentient also doesnt help them because they also lose themselves that way, like the dactolyst in the quest

[dawn shoal]

Presumably the Old Peace happened because the Sentients discovered what the flowers could do and became able to push back and disagree with each other (at least outwardly for the first time), rather than always being in the same page, and I think that at least implies potential to be more than fragments, but this is starting to get into philosophical weeds lol

[dawn shoal]

I see what you mean, though I got the impression that the Dactolyst could have not completely lost himself if the Anarchs hadn't taken the place of a higher ranking sentient.

[woven coyote]

Like they only seem to have a sense of self with the flower

Without it and with higher sentient they act as drones
Without it and without higher sentient they still act as drones but ravenous for orders

[woven coyote]

To me it seems like the only outcome that grants self is the presence of flowers

With or without hivemind the lack of the xenoflora seems to rob them of at leastt reason, maybe even self

[fading mist]

nah, the giant sentients was going at war with the orokin with its fragments, but the fragments ate the flowers and scared of dying and went under the orokin and created the treaty if Im not wrong

[dawn shoal]

With or without the sense of self, then, I still don't think fragment is the best term for drones that are meant to act as their own units, whether they're in a hivemind or not, but I concede that they may not have a full sense of self without the flowers, though I still think that the flowers mostly just leant capability to choose and act as an individual self, if that's not just the same thing worded differently.

[fading mist]

out of topic, soo sentients cores can power up operators... but how

[dark compass]

Crushing and inhaling

[fading mist]

I guess fragments are basically limbs of the sentient, drones are limbs that are given orders to do it themselves like an ai

[dark compass]

Yeah, that's what fragments are

[dawn shoal]

Probably related to how Ballas and Natah consume archon shards and Adis consumes Taublooms, yeah

[fading mist]

yummy gummies

soo, what if, 2 sentients keep producing fast enough cores for the operator, does it means infinite power

sentient core power up 4th ability true ultimate

[dawn shoal]

Probably not, they're just part of the operators power and I'm not sure that's how they affect it? But I don't know

[fading mist]

I guess we'll just wait for tau update

and narmer is still pretty much left on the shelves

and alad v

and kahl

[near kestrel]

just came back after more then a year of not really playing, stopped right before doing 1999, does anyone have a good recap video to refresh my lore knowledge up to there?

[fading mist]

what quest have you done

[woven coyote]

There aren't any good ones, no

[near kestrel]

everything before 1999, including jade and new war as well as duvari

[ashen pulsar]

not a good one. If you want info, you’re gonna have to ask questions ig

Most info you need for 99 is that albrecht entrati, the man who created the cavia and the first to encounter the man in the wall, escaped to the year 1999 to get away from the man in the wall.

from there, you can just ask whatever questions you need

[humble sierra]

I can give a quest recap just based off this, but yeah, if there's any gaps in your knowledge, it's best to ask questions (or replay quests!)

• Awakening: You wake up, Captain Vor puts an Ascaris device on you as you remember how to use your basic attacks
• Vor's Prize: You hunt down Vor while searching for important segments to restore your Orbiter. Slowly, he takes over your Warframe's systems, until you deactivate it and confront him, his defeat causing a chain reaction to completely free you.
• [NEW] The Teacher: You discover the Corpus are after something. Upon investigating, you find the Mod Segment-- and Teshin, who tests how much you remember of the Old War while going through the basics of Modding.
• Saya's Vigil: You help the Ostron in Cetus with some tasks in the Plains of Eidolon while finding out the secret that Saya's husband left her.
• Vox Solaris: You go to Fortuna to help Solaris United deal with their Corpus overlords like Nef Anyo. While not freeing them entirely, you prove that the Solaris are not to be taken lightly.
• Once Awake: You learn of a breakout of Infestation.
• Heart of Deimos: The Entrati family contact the Tenno, you learn that the Heart of Deimos, a conduit that is necessary for void-powered technology (like the Warframes) to function is damaged. The Family set aside their differences to speak to each other again and save the universe.
• The Archwing: You get an archwing

[stray herald]

Just got a voiceline from lyon, he is PISSED at lotus for putting the moon in the void

Also what would happen if we reset the devil’s triad after roathe wants us to

[mental herald]

You insert them into yourself

[mental herald]

I don't think the drifter will really become roathes puppet

[stray herald]

No, thats part of a kim message, we get a choice (at least in messaging) to do it

[mental herald]

Do we get a chance to kill him too then? ( In messages)

[stray herald]

He didnt mention that

[mental herald]

I hate talking to that high and mighty war criminal

I would love to kill him as his own warframe

[humble sierra]

• Natah: After investigating the depths of Uranus, you find strange transmissions that lead you back to Earth. The Lotus, upon realizing it's a Sentient signal, suddenly goes radio silent, leaving you and Teshin to investigate and stop Hunhow-- who later reveals that the Lotus is ||his daughter, a sentient named Natah||
• The Second Dream: Hunhow summons the Stalker, someone obsessed with hunting down Warframes, and makes him question why, in spite of his efforts, the Warframes simply do not die? After giving him some gear, he sends him to hunt down what makes the Tenno powerful. The Lotus and the Tenno team up with Alad V of the Corpus to track down their efforts, but accidentally lead the Stalker straight to the source of the Tenno's power-- on Lua, the moon of Earth, which the Lotus kept in the Void to prevent the Sentients from attacking (as it damages them). With no other choice, the Lotus and Tenno restore the moon back to where it's meant to be, then she sends the Tenno to see for themselves. She explains that they have been Dreaming this whole time, not fully concious of their reality until now.||The Warframes are operated by children with strange powers from the Void.|| The Stalker attacks again, but just as he is about to kill ||the Operator, its Warframe suddenly snaps Hunhow's sword in half, making the Stalker retreat||.
• Rising Tide: The Tenno gets a Railjack, a ship designed for space combat, rebuilding it and also helping Cephalon Cy forgive himself for when he got his crew killed.

• The War Within: Teshin acts strangely and begs the Tenno to stop chasing him. They refuse and follow him to the Kuva Fortress, the Grineer's secret command center. Teshin suddenly betrays the Tenno, on order of the Grineer Queens. One of them, dying due to clone rot, attempts to ||take over the Operator's body by burrowing into their mind, using a fluid known as Kuva that the Orokin used to enter bodies of "Yuvan", effectively being immortal via resurrection. The Operator is essentially trapped in their own mind. No longer being able to pilot Warframes, Ordis forcibly ejects them from the Orbiter leaving them on a mountain. Teshin helps them recover their memories, which also restores their abilities they lost. Then they realize that the whole scenario took place within a moment while the queens were burrowing into them.|| The quest ends with the player freeing Teshin, either killing the queen, letting her die of her own rot, or getting Teshin to do so, then deciding what to do with the Kuva. Suddenly, ||their eyes go black, and they say directly into the camera-- "Hey, kiddo."||

I low key can't be bothered doing the rest

[strange plinth]

real

[mental herald]

Is the war within all within the kids mind?

[strange plinth]

most of it
from the first "cut the link" to the second

[digital ore]

So confirm 5 things to me
old peace

1. ||The sentients attacked first, invading Sol, attacking all they consider Orokin, including the Corpus, Grineer. not just the Orokin high ranks like golden lords||
2. ||Orokin fought back, Dex, Grineer, Necromechs. failed. used infested, failed to control. used Warframes and Tenno. Won, pushed back to Tau, fought Sentients on Tau, Orokin are winning....Sentients are losing...until.....a peace by Ballas?||
3. ||Tenno are given to the...peace envoy to..build relations with sentients(?)||
4. ||Let the peace go on for a bit...until in position to destroy the flowers, and then resume the war. why....play at peace if the intent was always to destroy. Orokin were already winning to the point of pushing them back to Tau...so..why the peace?||
5. ||guessing...sentients never were able to push back to Sol, instead we win in Tau. return with Orokin to Sol, slaughter the golden lords. and then things go quiet? or did Sentients...somehow...reach Sol again and fight. i know at some point we got put to sleep on Lua, and Hunhau faked a death. which timeline wise is now confusing me. how would Sentients recover enough to push back to Sol after losing flowers...or did that part happen before...?||

||6. somewhere in all of this. margulis dies...and apaprently the one we saw in old peace was the original margulis? so....what point did natah go to sol, get captured, reprogrammed.
this implies sentients got back to sol after old peace..and i dont see how if they were losing to the point of being pushed back to tau...and then betrayed and lost their flowers..so weaker...so how get to sol after all that||

the more i look into this timeline..the more problems i see T.T
someone needs to write a full timeline to fix this

[strange plinth]

1 uses info from roathe chats, spoilered just in case
1 - ||the sentients built the rail, the orokin crossed, the sentients attacked then||
2 - the tenno + warframe combo and the sentients gaining individuality from the xenoflora allowed the peace
3 - its an academy for both the sentients and the tenno to further their training, it seems
4 - the vote was tied 3-3, just ballas's vote to decide it
5 - the praghasa group takes the rail to sol (killing praghasa and sterilizing the other sentients onboard in the process), natah invades lua (reprogrammed by ballas), hunhow destroys the rail, erra assaults lua (and fails), hunhow 'dies', lotus triggers the night of naga drums, collapse, big sleep
6 - margulis is executed for hiding the tenno away at the end of the old peace

[lean garden]

2. || I don't think the Orokin were able to fully push back against the Sentients, even with all of roathes victories, he is just one man||
3. || Sometimes its more advantageous to get a sneaky strike on the enemy so you dont have to fight them all head on||
4. || lol no, the Sentients definitely pushed back hard in sol||

[lean garden]

I think the biggest part of why youre confused is that youre holding onto the idea that the sentients couldn't go back to Origin for some reason

[strange plinth]

basic one, still in progress, some stuff still needs shuffled around i think

[digital ore]

1.|| ok....so the sentients attacked the orokin..in tau..not sol......so...how did we go from "they turned our weapons against us, dax, grineer, etc failed. so we turned to the void. tenno.
and where did the failed infested attempt go in||

2. so tenno pushed for the peace. ok

3. ||ballas abstained the vote....until he betrayed the sentients? why not just..vote to kill since they were winning to the point of having the option to call a peace||

4. ok this might explain a bit. || so it wasnt a counter invasion, it was a all or nothing run, and destroying the rail in case they failed?||

[lean garden]

The Sentients only seemingly went for peace because of the flowers, otherwise the Orokin were losing extremely hard

[lean garden]

1. they || sent a giant battleship meant to fight the sentients to tau. The sentients turned the ship off and let it crash and burn onto the surface of Tau||

[digital ore]

ah....ungh i wish they'd explain this in a better way

or you know what. someone in the wiki make a history timeline of this xD

[lean garden]

the orokin were not winning because of their might lol

[lean garden]

I mean, its complicated but its not hard

[strange plinth]

roathe crashes out over it a bit lmao

[digital ore]

maybe my name is byf could do a series to organize it

cause as it is, its a confusing mess of stuff scrambled worse than a game of drunk dictionary organization

[lean garden]

roathe the one competent military man crashing out that theyre effectively losing not just because the sentients turned orokin strengths against them, but because the rest of the orokin were useless

[lean garden]

oh nah

byf puts in the work, but even he got certain details wrong

[digital ore]

true

but i ment..some lore youtuber needs to organize it

production quality aside, just organizing this whole timeline mess to this point. would be worth the view. regardless of who its from

[lean garden]

no wonder roathe thought he could command the empire

[strange plinth]

5 - yea, basically. all bets are off, the flowers are gone, the sentients are proven right in a way, "We crossed the gap - wombs in ruin - to bring an end to this."

[lean garden]

he probably figured that once the executors were gone, he's the only good one left

[digital ore]

honestly...taht quote goes hard

[lean garden]

and by "good" I mean "functionally competent to run an empire"

Anyways if we take a look at what the Sentients did in Origin, we can reasonably assume that it is only because of the flowers, as suggested in TOP, were the reason that the sentients went for peace

[digital ore]

||and so now the flowers gone, no way of recovering...? no Duviri or void tricks? actually...canonically, can we grab stuff like people in Duviri and bring them into reality without negative effects?
and only some Sentients, like Natah and Hunhow, and maybe a few other scattered survivors are left with self awareness||

[humble sierra]

Barring actual time travel, probably not

[lean garden]

such as:
Assault on deimos is repelled, after scorched earthing deimos
Assault on Lua repelled, after a surprise attack by lotus

[humble sierra]

Maybe if the other planets in the Tau system also had them

[lean garden]

oh another one, rail to tau destroyed

[strange plinth]

the flowers gave fragments individuality, sentients made like natah and erra were had their individuality to begin with i believe
CE continuing to exist outside of the void is odd. some of the recent roathe chats indicate that they can't be taken out of the void, and they'll dissolve/return like argon crystals do. but we take materials out of duviri all the time, so what's up with that
either way, it'd probably be poison to sentients, as its still from the void

[digital ore]

speaking of the assault on lua...
WHEN were the Tenno put into hibernation? put into the 2nd dream?

Margulis died
and then natah became lotus
and then assault on lua. where we see tenno awake, next to her.
and then....when did we get put asleep. was it after we murdered the golden lords?

||and did Margulis erase our memories of tau? or did that come after we murdered the golden lords. if it was before, then what reason did we kill the golden lords||

[strange plinth]

margulis puts us into the second dream (making us forget tau in the process)
margulis is executed
natah takes over, reprogrammed into lotus
she directs the unconscious tenno to beam erra
night of naga drums, we're still in the second dream, being directed by lotus
full hibernation until game start

[proven spire]

the tenno still kept fighting after killing the orokin leadership

[digital ore]

so we didnt kill golden lords of own reason
lotus told us to do it. and we did....

thats.....a bit lame....

kinda fancied the whole we did it of our own conviction. not just...lotus told us

[strange plinth]

we still had plenty of reason to, we just weren't entirely.. ourselves, at the time

[lean garden]

I mean we also had our own conviction lol

[digital ore]

not really...we were asleep...forgot tau

[humble sierra]

I would prefer we're 100% conscious though tbh

[proven spire]

yes and then natah was supposed to wake up ballas and hunhow to kill the tenno after

[earnest sapphire]

Watch y’all mouths, void-luggers.

[humble sierra]

It makes the Tenno rebellion better

[digital ore]

so what other reasons would we have, conviction wise, to kill the golden lords. other than lotus telling us at this point

[strange plinth]

correct, and she faltered on the final step

[brazen seal]

margulis ded

[digital ore]

ever read the warframe fanfic Scavengers?
and the story behind House Eternal?

[strange plinth]

margulis's death, mostly
but also we don't need to remember tau to figure out that the orokin Aren't Great People

[proven spire]

the cinematic trailer where the non-prime frames were still battling the orokin military

the dax and the orokin grineer

[lean garden]

I mean, just because we're in the second dream doesnt mean we lose all agency to kill the orokin

like we directly state that one of the factors was them killing marge

[digital ore]

but what motiviation do we have to do it
we didnt know margulis is dead
or tau

cause it was erased when we got put to sleep

[strange plinth]

the thing with the night of naga drums is that while it was planned by ballas and directed by lotus, we still have reason to have done it on our own

[lean garden]

???

[proven spire]

ballas also wanted to kill the orokin because they killed margulis

[strange plinth]

margulis died after we were put into the second dream, we'd know

[lean garden]

the memories of tau were erased by margulis, shed obviously have to have died after that

[digital ore]

so they'd leave the memory of our "mother" with us....that seems like incompetence on the part of the golden lords

hey lets kill the Tenno's adoptive mother, and leave them with the memories
and then expect them to not murder us

what is it. saturday morning cartoon villian

[lean garden]

you're needlessly assuming that theyd

1. be so thorough
2. actually care how we feel

[strange plinth]

they've fallen in line and stayed in line
-# except for that one that we wanted to blame the war on
why would that change

[proven spire]

it was ballas lol

[digital ore]

i mean, if we using the warmachines they praise so much, and are having a giant ceremony for us, (and we dont got the control device stalker had at the naga drum ceremony)
and so a ton of us are just..standing there...armed with warframes

in front of them.....that makes them seem idiotic

[lean garden]

gee

[digital ore]

specially if we remember they killed our adaoptive mom...

[lean garden]

gee

[digital ore]

like..in what world do they see that ending well

[lean garden]

I wonder

its like hubris is a feature of the empire

[digital ore]

thats a low IQ move that even saturay mornign cartoon villaisn wouldnt fall for

even joker would make sure theres a bomb on his audience

[lean garden]

lol no

empires are always run on duct tape

[proven spire]

they were just betrayed by one of their own

because they killed his lover lol

[lean garden]

like there are several independent but complimenting factors that allowed for the Night of Naga Drums

hell the Night of Naga Drums is already parallel to real world events

like the Night of Long Knives

where a mustache man gathered and killed his opposition

[brazen seal]

https://tenor.com/view/gear5luffyy-gif-6290297691891553227

[brazen seal]

how i expect the night of naga drums to be ingame

[digital ore]

except he didnt kill their parents, then invite them to a party, and then kill them
he killed all of them in one night so none could grab a gun to shoot back

[lean garden]

hey read that last sentence

[proven spire]

naga drums was basically order 66

[lean garden]

and think perhaps the Night of Naga Drums isnt so unrealistic

[digital ore]

it kinda is unrealistic

night of long knives was everything at once

the way they setting up night of naga drums, is basically...game of thrones red wedding. except he kills the stark mother a week before, then invites them to have the wedding

see the issue with the timing. they are already hostile due to prior actions

[lean garden]

my guy

[strange plinth]

ballas bringing a bunch of important people, including the emperors, to a celebration of the tenno's contribution to the war, only for most of them to get slaughtered at the 9th drum beat

[digital ore]

instead, red wedding, they do it all at once

[lean garden]

did you forget that they fought a war

after they killed margulis

did you forget the also "won" a war after they killed margulis

[strange plinth]

yea there was a war to get through before they could kill the orokin for killing margulis

[lean garden]

theres reasonable doubt already that the tenno would turn on the orokin

[flat jacinth]

How do we complete the deal with roathe? How do I join the family?...

[proven spire]

it was his plan not ours then working together with the sentients to kill us after

[digital ore]

aye. so they skilled in the blade and gun. they armed to the teeth, experienced,
and remind me what Horus feared in 40k's horus heresy? that once they won the war, they'd be wiped out as no more need of warriors

or, for a real life example, after the unification of japan, they got a bunch of armed to the teeth, experienced at war, samurai
so what did they do? kill all their lords and then invite them to a party?

nope. they sent them to invade china (and failed to get through korea. but so many of them died in the process, that it effectively solved the problem of to many war trained people)

[strange plinth]

increase your rank with them

[proven spire]

natah just saved us and then put the moon in the void

[flat jacinth]

With who-

[strange plinth]

the entrati family. necralisk

[lean garden]

you uh,

[fast dew]

The entrati family also did this to deimos

[digital ore]

if i overthinking it tell me xD

[lean garden]

you do realise that the orokin barely reached the "lets get rid of the super soldiers" part right

like they only literally made it to the "lets celebrate!"

[proven spire]

it wasn't our revenge but ballas's revenge for margulis's death

[fast dew]

https://tenor.com/view/warframe-margulis-orokin-ballas-natah-gif-5544434714955435909

[digital ore]

aye. instead they at the "we have killed your mother. and trained you in war, armed you in war, given you experience winning a war. now come visit us in close proximity with all your weapons....with the people who had your mother killed

[proven spire]

then after the sentients destroy the tenno on lua while it was all happening he would've been hailed as a hero for saving the empire but that never happened

it's like a two birds in one stone situation

[lean garden]

theres also the whole "you had a whole war to turn on us but didnt" bit

[digital ore]

historically, the armies turn either when your losing the war
or once you've won

history repeats alot like that

[lean garden]

I mean the orokin were in that first state for a very good while lol

[strange plinth]

it wasn't about being a hero. he wanted the empire to burn, so it did. the only thing that messed up was natah not getting rid of the tenno

[lean garden]

how do you think lua and deimos got attacked

thats already deep into origin

[proven spire]

they wouldn't do this if they didn't have complete control, it only happened because they were betrayed by one of their own

we were just part of natah, ballas, and hunhow's coup

[lean garden]

like lua is the "heart" of the empire

[digital ore]

i jsut thought of a reason. might want to remember this

when was the last time the orokin fought (and won) a war

remember, it had been so long that war was forgotten other than house skirmishes
hence the sentient war being new in so many ways

[lean garden]

the fact that the sentients could hit lua means the war wasnt going too well for the orokin

[digital ore]

so orokin might have forgotten armies typically rebel at the end of the war to finish grudges

cause it had been so long since they had a proper war to remind them of that

[proven spire]

so after the ruling class and the aristocrats were killed, the military or the warrior class, the grineer and dax, continued fighting and then the merchant class, the corpus, scrambled

both corpus and grineer at this point were filling up the power vaccuum

the orokin wasn't just the blue people

[tall echo]

Uhhhh

[strange plinth]

yea it was?
we go out of our way to only kill the orokin, and dax/grineer if they're in the way

[digital ore]

overall though, Fanfic Warframe: Scavengers had a better scenario.

||House Eternal had a golden lord, who decided to try to..continuity into the body of a Tenno.
after all, Golden lord, tenno body, youth, void powers. thats something to want
but they kept it hush hush cause...not exactly something you'd want the Tenno to realize.
if it worked, pretend to be that tenno, return to the other tenno. no one is the wiser

if it failed....no one says anything. tenno think one died or dissapeared. golden lords clean.

problem 1....the golden lord wanted a strong tenno, a charismatic tenno...aka one other tenno looked up to...

some of the Tenno realized what had happened (when the leader of their 5 man cell goes missing...and one was already suspcious of the close attention the dax were watching that one member, mind ya none havhe any clue if it worked, even to the audience it seems like it failed to the death of both)

and that was their motivation to hunt the golden lord (and naga drum ceremony just happened to happen at the same time)
||

i know its not canon, just a fanfic, but imo, that was a far better motivation. and that was just 5 tenno and 1 golden lord
||spoiler it did work....but not as intended. after all the tenno reawoken, they found out house eternal was still around in the shadows, trying to rebuild and...."reaquire" tenno. ||

[proven spire]

the dax and grineer and the corpus are orokin, they just belong to different societal classes within the empire

[tall echo]

Orokin(people) was only used to refer to the blue man group rejects

[proven spire]

and the priests of sol and lua are the religious class

[strange plinth]

being under the orokin empire and being an orokin are two very different things

[strange plinth]

dualism was outlawed ages ago huh

[tall echo]

Not outlawed just forgotten

[proven spire]

the grineer and the dax are orokin military

[strange plinth]

replaced with 'worship the golden lords' regardless, then

[proven spire]

and each one of the seven had their own armies of grineer and dax warriors like samurai who had different lords

[tall echo]

But they are not orokin(people), only orokin(civilian of empire)

[tall echo]

Source?

[proven spire]

before the sentients, the orokin lords used their armies against other orokin to gain power and to pass the time

[digital ore]

house skirmishes

not full wars as they admit

[proven spire]

yes

where did i say it was war

[digital ore]

u didnt, i was just adding cause other readers will assume

[proven spire]

it would only make sense that some parts of the military would continue fighting the tenno while others tried to gain territory

after the orokin leadership was killed by the tenno

we also didn't get them all in one go, remember some escaped and we had to hunt them down and that's where the stories from the leverian come in

[tall echo]

Most of leverian is either before or long after the collapse

[proven spire]

the collapse wasn't a singular event that happened in a day, it took years

the leverian stories are part of the collapse of the empire as a whole

one would argue that the grineer queens and the corpus are remnants of the orokin empire

like western rome being conquered and then eastern rome becoming the holy roman empire

[copper mountain]

This has nothing to do with WF lore but my trivia-knowing butt feels the need to be pedantic and correct that statement

Western Rome fell while Eastern Rome was fine. Then Eastern Rome tried to retake Rome under Justinian; this worked for like, five years. Eastern Rome and Western Rome didn't get along very well after hundreds of years of political drift and so Da Pope made a deal with the Frankish Empire to become the Western Rome II: Holy Rome

But now there's two Romes again, so who's the Rome-ier Rome? Well neither really because Eastern Rome was basically Greek and Holy Rome was now German for some reason and also then the Ottomans became Eastern Rome II?

The metaphor actually still works out great for Grineer and Corpus if we assume that both are trying to be "Orokin II" despite neither really having much of a claim to that title

[proven spire]

we never forget rome

warframe's story is a space soap opera and its history is a post-apocalypse, built on top of another post-apocalypse on another post-apocalypse

[proven spire]

what happened was the elite aristocrats and the royalty were killed and so then the military and the merchant bureaucrats were in a free-for-all

so for the common man, it's all still shit innit

[grizzled patrol]

just finished old peace, couple questions:

• What is a world-seeder?
• How was the xenoflora discovered? Is the idea that, in the brief war before the peace treaty, the xenoflower originally allowed the sentients to break free from the Orokin commands?
• At the end is it confirmed that margulis both did write the message and knew that the codes were tampered with? Was any explanation given as to why she would do that if so?
• What does margulis do to us at the end? Put us to sleep (and for how long), wipe our memories of what happened, or both? And more importantly, why?
• What were the immediate events/cause that lead to margulis being executed?

[proven spire]

my guess is that the world-seeder is the thing the sentients were made for, to terraform planets on Tau

[grizzled patrol]

and one of them was the base of operations for the anarchy?

[ashen pulsar]

she drugs us for the whole ride back to lua, and wipes our memories so that we dont get killed for treason and whatever else

[grizzled patrol]

you mean whole ride back to lua?

[ashen pulsar]

margulis wrote the message but was lied to about the contents

[grizzled patrol]

and why would erasing our memories help with keeping us from being tried for treason? So we can feign ignorance of what went down? What about Ballas and all the other orokin leaders that would say it was the tenno

[strange plinth]

the world-seeders are terraformers, part of the zariman project
the sentients had already developed sentience, but the flowers let their fragments be individuals as well
the ending is unclear, but ultimately, "you were used, just as she was"
put us in the second dream and eventually hide us on lua
hiding us away on lua

[hazy prism]

1. World-seeders are the big egg looking things that were meant to terraform the moons and planets for habitation
2. they just existed in tau and the sentients could consume them, they're a bit mysterious and not alot of info on them as of yet

[proven spire]

the sentients are basically another case of rogue AI turning on their creators and out-evolving them

the also gained a sense of individuality through alien flora

and the world seeder would kill the alien flora

[tall echo]

Still no, only like two are set during the collapse

[grizzled patrol]

a bit unclear still on the effect of the flower. When it is said that it allows them to break free from the hivemind and can think for themselves, is it not that they break free from Orokin control through that?

[ashen pulsar]

also she was executed later for defending the tenno, apostasy, and apparently other orokin crimes

[proven spire]

do you really think that the collapse just happened on a single tuesday

[strange plinth]

they broke free of orokin control before that
the flowers let their fragments, previously part of the sentient hivemind, be individuals
deprived of the flowers, they'd fall back into wanting orders, then fully back into the hive

[proven spire]

it was also during this time period that the non-prime warframes emerged because we needed weapons to kill the remaining orokin

[hazy prism]

there was always a risk of them turning on the Orokin (hence the whole weakness to the void travel that would make them weaker and sterile). The Xenoflora made each sentient an individual rather than a hivemind

[ashen pulsar]

there were many non-prime warframes before that tho

I dont understand

[grizzled patrol]

Ah I see. So instead of each individual sentient being thinking as one, they each get to think and experience on their own?