lore-discussion

[fast dew]

It absolutely was narcissism 😭 he is an narcissistic man

Thats the thing with executors like him. They all seem, at least the ones we've seen, are incredibly narcissistic.

Wont say all orokin, Albrecht is there to disprove that thought

You know this isnt what normal people do when people start to love another 😭

[pale cedar]

Normal in Warframe?
Impossible

[stray herald]

I think he is narcissistic. through roathe's vendor voicelines say that entrati thinks himself higher than all other orokin.
IMO his descent into religious metaphors mixing with his scientific mind is like him in a religious phase. I mean he self aggrandises himself in his journals

[fast dew]

Albrecht absolutely doesn't. He sees Loid, a regular human who is arguably below him caste wise as ABOVE him

Roathe doesn't know shit ngl

Especially when it comes to Albrecht.

[hollow siren]

That could still just means he idolizes Loid to an insane degree (relatable)

it's still true that Albrecht was not as much of a saint compared to other Orokin as he thought himself as

[fast dew]

Which is insane for an orokin, who's literal religion was to see themselves as gods 😭

[fast dew]

Thats the thing, he never does think himself as such

He actually calls himself a devil 😭

[stray herald]

the narrative of him being thebfirst to know the true danger of wally is just asking for an ego inflation

[fast dew]

Ehh

[pale cedar]

Nah

He doesn't really act egotistical

[stray herald]

I'm still leaning towards it

[fast dew]

Albrecht is stupidly self deprecating, ||we have a kimchat with Marie that allows you to say "i don't think entrati thinks much of himself either"||

[pale cedar]

All people do have ego’s even you doesn't always mean they're egotistical

[stray herald]

I was about to say that

[fast dew]

He literally is just a wet rag

[stray herald]

bc I was talking about narcissism

[pale cedar]

Albrecht only really cares about stopping Wally that's not really being egotistical

[restive river]

Albrecht more so doesn’t care for those he hurts, sometimes
He does not seem sorry for the hex but does feel guilt for the cavia

[ocean geyser]

Do you think it’s possible to take someone from Duviri, out into the real world?

[pale cedar]

No

[restive river]

We take animals and resources out and Thrax for as far as the Zariman

[stray herald]

given the circumstances, he fits the bill for becoming a narcissist bc he was abandoned by his fellow scientists to work in his lonesome. his own project, dismissed. and now is like the biggest 'i told you so' moment

[ocean geyser]

So the best bet is that it’s only possible to bring them to void saturated places

[restive river]

Like we literally take the kaithe, the birds and the fish out ez

[fast dew]

Doesnt he have a line about regretting not being able to give any soothing words to the hex, outside "this is what is needed to be done"?

[fast dew]

Nah not really

[ocean geyser]

I wanna steal one of the Dax and show em around

[pale cedar]

They're coded to be in the Void they can't leave the Void

[restive river]

Kaithe can go places that aren’t do
Same for the fish and the weapons

[fast dew]

I don't see Albrecht being a narcissist. Again, sees someone better than him, which is like. not a thing with narcissists 😭

[ocean geyser]

I guess the answer really is “we haven’t tried”

[restive river]

Could be Thrax is more complex and thus has a reduced range but that’s speculative

[ocean geyser]

I doubt most of them would want to leave anyway

[restive river]

I’d say we have with the kaithe alone

[stray herald]

bc his pride, his void project, was abandoned bc no one saw the potential anymore.
him going on a religious rant is just him protecting himself from being told wrong again bc the existence of wally reaffirms his importance in the world

[restive river]

No they would not

[pale cedar]

Most of them don't even know there is a place outside Duviri

[ocean geyser]

Which makes sense

[fast dew]

No, I think his religious side quest was more of a justification for himself. Wanted to be free of guilt, which is an understandable thing.

[restive river]

Idk

[pale cedar]

Asking a person to leave their home never really goes well

[fast dew]

I can confirm

[stray herald]

I think it's more of a instagram girl thing

[ocean geyser]

I’m surprised none of them have attempted to investigate the Zariman
Unless Thrax went “hey you can’t go here actually”

[restive river]

Oh no they just don’t care

[ocean geyser]

Lmfao

[restive river]

Acrithis is the only one who does iirc

[hollow siren]

The story's bounds seem to kinda prevent them from fully realizing it even exists

[stray herald]

he went on a sabbatical

[restive river]

And Thrax obviously knows about it

[restive river]

Acrithis:

[stray herald]

both the murmur and entrati are going into religious mood swings which I will take as a clue

[hollow siren]

yeah she's an oddity just in general

[restive river]

"Did you ever notice how that thing hangs in the sky overhead, and yet nobody ever wants to talk about it? Like it's not really there?"

[hollow siren]

Maybe her documenting the irregularities of Void Duviri has kinda pushed her slightly between the lines

[pale cedar]

I wonder if that means they can't see it

[restive river]

It’s like not acknowledging the moon

[hollow siren]

like she's interacted with and remembered enough of the off-story things caused by Wally that she's kinda gone off-script a bit

[pale cedar]

I didn't acknowledge the moon till I saw it

[restive river]

She’s a very curious character

[pale cedar]

In a quest

I'm surprised nobody in Warframe questioned why for 1000 years there was no moon in the sky

[hollow siren]

"We thought it was destroyed in the old wars"

War calms down, people realize the moon is missing, assume it fully crumbled cause of the old war

[restive river]

Alad V: "Sweet Profit, the Moon exists? It was… it was in the Void all along? I knew the Lotus was powerful, but this… she erased history! We thought it was destroyed all this time. My my, Lotus, you make a fine villain!"

[pale cedar]

This quote is so annoying because of all the people believing she moved it by other means that weren't tech based

[fast dew]

Well. The funny thing is, Albrecht likely did the 1899 shit before any time close to now

He wouldn't have been able to leave

[hazy prism]

Little bit of fun speculation, but how do you think they'll implement Jade prime lore?

[fast dew]

...its pretty easy

Jade wasn't the only jade

[hazy prism]

Like Ballas made a prime version after Jade based on her?

[fast dew]

Probably. We know its possible. Xaku had it done, after all.

[dark compass]

They only add prime lore if they want to do something interesting with it

[fast dew]

I'm more curious to how Temple prime will exist, but I suppose it'll just be another "they primed themselves" thing

[hazy prism]

I guess, i was under the impression Jade and Stalker were unique sort of 1 of a kind, granted there isn't anything stating that

[pale cedar]

Orokin made designs based on other designs all the time

[dark compass]

Nothing stops them from making Temple prime and saying something like
"FLAMES OF REVOLUTION!!!!" and never elaborate further

[hollow siren]

Lizzie got the munchies and ate Orokin tech while waiting

[fast dew]

Funniest idea tbh.

[pine orchid]

honestly I can see that, she would

[pale cedar]

Almost no Prime in this game can't exist because of another frames existence

[hazy prism]

Yeah, I think the simplest answer is Lizzie ate orokin tech/ or parts of the comet they were on and than primed themselves

[hollow siren]

or alternatively, David Bowie magical girl transformation

[pine orchid]

they do say you are what you eat

[hazy prism]

What was the justification for Revenant prime, I forgot off the top of my head?

[hollow siren]

Ballas has no idea how it exists, item descriptions imply the Unum had some hand in it

[pale cedar]

Temple Prime could have a simple answer of they fought well in the war they got a frame

[hollow siren]

My personal theory is that it's sort of a what-if with The Warden's original Prime-tier body given the Eidolon powers without the erosion he sustained

[dark compass]

Bile: 20%

[feral sable]

Give us Umbra frames....Good morning peeps

[hollow siren]

we have one already (well two technically

[feral sable]

Please tell me the second one because Excal is the only one

I awaits

[hollow siren]

Excalibur Umbra Prime, Warframe China's version of Excalibur Prime

Excalibur Umbra is a universally available version of that

Umbra Prime has a unique helmet and Emblem

https://wiki.warframe.com/w/Excalibur/Umbra_Prime

[feral sable]

I feel like that is still just a prime for them then, where as there was so much potential taking the umbra title and running with it 🥲 Give me Kullervo Umbra

[hollow siren]

The purpose of Excal Umbra is to be a permanent stand-in for Excalibur Prime. What would Kullervo Umbra even have that differs from Kullervo Prime

[feral sable]

The fact that Umbral frames could be a different sector of orokin frames from the prime frames duh. Like how there are different branches of militia and stuff. Excalibur Umbra's story isn't too far off from Kullervo at that, so it could be looked at as a unit of "delinquents/rejects"

[pale cedar]

DE confirmed they have no plans for more Umbra frames

[feral sable]

And thats the Sad part🥲 like a knife to the heart every time

A syndicate war arc would be dope

[pale cedar]

I don't think it has enough stuff for a full arc

[hollow siren]

besides, the Umbra symbol was specifically tied to the Dax he was before

[lucid acorn]

umbra is the only one of his kind, courtesy of ball ass

[hollow siren]

the only thing unique to him gameplay-wise other than visuals is his gimmick passive, that is oftentimes a detriment to the point of DE adding an Umbra Augment that disables it

and ig Radial Blind being Howl

[feral sable]

Maybe more of like a Isle weaver kind of situation thing, and it could revamp the conclave.....🥲

[lucid acorn]

i really hope they bring the chinese helm over

that shit looks fire

[hollow siren]

Doing so would be the same as bringing Excal Prime back

[feral sable]

I was about to say unfortunately I hope they dont

[lucid acorn]

damn you DE and your exclusives

[feral sable]

they dang near brought 90% of him to da public

[lucid acorn]

now forever trapped behind the cutscene in a flashback, and the old peace

[pale cedar]

Don't think they can legally

[lucid acorn]

umbra was also originally a chinese exclusive skin

[pale cedar]

Yeah, but they swapped it and gave the helmet to founders which then became the new Chinese founders item

[frank galleon]

did they explain how xaku prime came about?

[pale cedar]

No

[feral sable]

At least DE does exculsives right 🎉

[lucid acorn]

i think xaku prime was the og, version of xaku, and the reg version is the mass produced type

[feral sable]

Uriel type situation

[lucid acorn]

tho, it was orginally 3 different frames lost to time, they got nuked and rebuilt by the entratis to form xaku

[feral sable]

or... reg xaku is post war swallowed by deimos

[frank galleon]

i dont think the entratis rebuilt xaku

[lucid acorn]

reg xaku to me sounds like its trying to bring back the design code of the lost frames

[frank galleon]

the entrati had 3 warframes that got lost and in the void they all combined

[lucid acorn]

isnt that the lore?

[frank galleon]

is what i understood from the lore

[hollow siren]

No. Xaku emerged on their own from the Untime gate, their shell seemingly formed from Warframes lost in Entrati Void experiments

[pale cedar]

Xaku has almost no lore so there's only theories

[lucid acorn]

ok, thats a misread on my part

3 entrati frames got jumbled and came out

[frank galleon]

so is it 3 prime warframes all combined

theres not enough lore to say i guess

but theyre my fav frame atm so fun to think about

[pale cedar]

3 frames combined and that the frames were lost in expeditions is all we really know

[fast dew]

I like to think the entrati family brought it to Ballas and asked him to prime Xaku

Maybe Albrecht, maybe not.

[frank galleon]

my thought was that they primed it after it came out as one, hence the overt entrati theming

[hollow siren]

Maybe they just threw a bunch of scrap bits at Xaku like "I wonder if they'll assimilate these"

[frank galleon]

yeah lol, i mean my reasoning behind it is that xaku looks like quite a mix and doesnt really have any entrati elements but the prime really leans into them

[hazy prism]

I headcanoned that Xaku Prime existed first, with the xaku blueprints we get being based off the original Xaku after it was worn down and lost the "prime" aspects overtime/exposure

[frank galleon]

with all the obols

are old peace spoilers allowed in this chat?

[feral sable]

^

[hollow siren]

Probably best to take those in #spoiler-chat

[feral sable]

How much time gotta go by before it's socially🥲 acceptable

[hollow siren]

Spoilers are never really a matter of time as they are just a matter of courtesy

The Sacrifice is years old but I'm not gonna explain its storyline in #warframe-general when there's new players there

[feral sable]

This...lore-discussion...

[pale cedar]

There's nothing really wrong with talking about quest spoilers here

Just gotta consider who's in chat

Rn it is fine

[feral sable]

So canonically which faction is the "correct" one, as in the one that is technically doing the most work progressively, and vice-verse

not faction, syndicate

my b

[hollow siren]

assuming you mean the six Primary Syndicates

[feral sable]

yup

[quick wadi]

Steel meridian probably

[hollow siren]

Steel Meridian are pretty much a resistance group yeah

New Loka and Red Veil are both kinda murder cults, but at least Red Veil has knowledge from Rell and tried to stop Void influence

[feral sable]

Thoughts on the other three syndicates then?

more bystanders or ally

[woven coyote]

Suda just wants to research and listen to music

[hollow siren]

Perrin are Corpus but less bad, Suda can get a bit cold with her research but she's not actively malicious

Arbiters are a bit "holier than thou" but they mostly keep to themselves

[woven coyote]

Arbiters are warframe fanboys

[hollow siren]

As for their relations to eachother, those are mainly for gameplay purposes

[feral sable]

Fair point to that, Outside of the fact that they provide grendal/gauss. If they had a lore-frame what powers or plot would it be you think?

[hollow siren]

There is not really anything in-game that shows Perrin and Loka actually being allies

they're just Allied Syndicates to make the pairings equal

[hollow siren]

maybe Baruuk

[feral sable]

I never really learned his lore when he was released, other than he a is a paciFIST

[hollow siren]

Baruuk already has some slight visual and thematic ties to the Quills, and syndicate ties to them by proxy of Vox Solaris

[hollow siren]

He doesn't really have any

[feral sable]

Who else kinda falls under that category?

[woven coyote]

Garuda

[feral sable]

I was just about to ask if she counted

[hollow siren]

Most frames tbh

[woven coyote]

Basically all boss drop frames

[hollow siren]

Most don't really have solid lore beyond their item descriptions

[feral sable]

is oberon essential tied to titanias?

[woven coyote]

Nope

[hollow siren]

Nothing in-universe outside of both kinda being tied to Earth

[feral sable]

so dang he counts then huh?

[woven coyote]

Only link really is the reference to shakespeare

And that's just an irl reference

Oberon drops on railjack so not even tied to earth

[feral sable]

No way he got moved to railjacks now fr?

[woven coyote]

Been a while

Along with ash

[feral sable]

yea no the ash one is sickening

[woven coyote]

Wanna say its been about 2 years since they were moved

[frank galleon]

I dont know much about him but Parvos just seems relatively not very evil in comparison to the corpus we know and love

[mossy token]

What’s the canonical age of Operator and Drifter?

[pale cedar]

1000+

[pale cedar]

Parvos is also a liar

Also you not knowing much about Parvos is probably why you see him as not as evil

[dark compass]

he is arguably worse

[pale cedar]

The more you know the worse a person seems

[mossy token]

[dark compass]

if you add to the usual tenets of profit the will to go out of your way to steal and pillage from everyone around you with open hostility

[pale cedar]

Corpus was literally started as a pyramid scheme

[dark compass]

yeah, and he was at the top

[fast dew]

Hes a violent loan shark whos hypocritical in his criticisms against Nef.

[frank galleon]

thats true but he still seems less evil than the regular corpus

[fast dew]

The regular corpus are arguably less evil

Born into a cult and taught thats the only way to be

Which is a lot less bad than someone like Parvos.

[pale cedar]

You've also seen much more of the other members of the Corpus

[dark compass]

and Parvos literally founded that cult

[hollow siren]

They mean Nef

[hollow siren]

.

[dark compass]

yeah, i am saying about parvos in comparison

[hollow siren]

ohhh right

[pale cedar]

Parvos has done worse things than the Board

[frank galleon]

has he? we've only got his whole blowing up the orokin in the lab thing

[fast dew]

Parvos may have Drusus' body

[frank galleon]

and stealing from the entrati or something to that effect

[fast dew]

So. Thats something.

[dark compass]

Corpus are meddling capitalists, he is just going to shoot you and take your stuff

[pale cedar]

Twice

[quick wadi]

In a simplified sense hes nef anyo but hes not an idiot

[pale cedar]

Parvos also kidnaps Solaris on the regular

[dark compass]

yeah he geniunely just has no ethics

at least corpus are trying to live by the tenets and have a system

he just steals shit, he doesnt care

[quick wadi]

Which is much more dangerous

[fast dew]

Parvo.. eheheh

[frank galleon]

i thought the kidnapped solaris where nefs experiments to get into the granum void

[pale cedar]

I'm his monuments to narcissism roast he is also lying because he actually seems perfectly fine with the monuments

[dark compass]

the first thing Parvos did upon returning is not trying to integrate into the board, he just decided to kill everyone and take over

[fast dew]

Tbf Albrecht also probably stole shit

[brittle siren]

I mean

They all wanted him dead

[frank galleon]

his ethic is that anyone can do it and should be given the means to, whereas the corpus board seem to be fine being the only rich ones

[pale cedar]

Duviri’s idea

[brittle siren]

I would want to kill the whole board if I was him too

[frank galleon]

like hes defo still evil but the board seem more evil

[dark compass]

the thing is that he is the only "anyone".

[fast dew]

As in the loop? Cus if anything, Euleria stole the stories of Duviri from Albrecht 😭

[pale cedar]

Again, seeming doesn't always mean is

Parvos has been plotting and scheming before any of them were born

[brittle siren]

Um no she is the author, Albrecht does not make Duviri

[hollow siren]

Drifter made Duviri from the book Euleria wrote

[dark compass]

parvos talks about giving everyone the right, but that also assumes he is his full right to just bludgeon you with his golden hand and take all your stuff

[brittle siren]

That's why you can hear her voice in there

[pale cedar]

I do mean the concept of a loop

[fast dew]

.. duviri, the tales of Duviri, are based on the stories Albrecht Told Euleria when she was a child. Which she later took and wrote into the book.

[hollow siren]

yeah that's not stealing that's just inspiration

[fast dew]

... yes that's apart of the joke

"Stealing" being a genetic thing for the entrati family

[pale cedar]

Albrecht didn't seem to care either way

[fast dew]

Albrecht cared a lot actually 😭

[brittle siren]

Well she is his only relative left (not counting grandchildren)

[fast dew]

Not that it was "stolen", but that she actually remembered it and held it close to her chest.

Fighting the folk who say Albrecht was abusive to Euleria

"Inconsistent vigor" yeah dawg he's gonna have "Inconsistent vigor", he's a singular dude who has a whole ass child now 😭 we don't even know what that fully means for an orokin

Loid likely helped but there's no indication on when she joined Euleria's childhood

[hollow siren]

Loid woman real

[dark compass]

"inconsistent vigor"

theres a your mom joke in here somewhere

[pale cedar]

Loid was the real father

Albrecht was the dad

[frank galleon]

Loid wasnt the step dad

he was the dad who stepped up

[waxen mesa]

why do the factions want void access so badly? it seems like a really really bad idea that results in a 100% "mortality" rate

[hollow siren]

well Orokin Void tech can do some crazy things

[waxen mesa]

surely they must know of the 100% failure rate of void invasions

[hollow siren]

I mean, they have salvaged Orokin tech before

[waxen mesa]

and then we promptly beat them up

[heavy silo]

So in lore ; why is Uriel not a prime in an era where the Orokin are at their peak?

[hollow siren]

Same reason not all irl military forces have the very best equipment

[heavy silo]

That doesn’t work

[hollow siren]

It would be a waste of resources to enhance every single Warframe with the best Orokin tech

[heavy silo]

That’s how they were all made

[hollow siren]

all Warframes have cybernetic augments added to them, Primes have top-class ones

[heavy silo]

In lore my understanding is after the fall of the Orokin warframes were remade with materials that were available but in the old peace Orokin are at their height of power

[hollow siren]

The relation between base and Prime frame varies from frame to frame

for some the Prime version was the first edition, others had Prime tech added later on

[heavy silo]

That’s always way too inconsistent without in lore explanations, Lavos for examp seems like a throw away line of lore

[normal mountain]

Then there are the special lads
Like Lavos and Revenant

[hollow siren]

Most frames have close to no concrete lore

[heavy silo]

Why rev?

[hollow siren]

Ballas has no idea how and why it exists

item descriptions imply the Unum had some hand in it

[heavy silo]

Let me rephrase not frame but clearl prime lore cuz the game has always operated on primes first and our frames are just what’s made from post Orokin materials

[hollow siren]

"primes first" is just based on what people associate the word "prime" with

[normal mountain]

Used to be the case
Then Varzia came around and told us this wasn't all true

[heavy silo]

The prime? He was a warden -

[heavy silo]

Give me a refresher?

[hollow siren]

A common theory is that it's The Warden's Primed body given Eidolon powers without the erosion, yeah

but nothing in-game directly confirms that

[normal mountain]

If I can find the exact quote

[heavy silo]

I wish Steve still controlled the lore he had it so straight forward

[hollow siren]

"Some Warframes were Prime from the start. Others earned it. Ballas never told the whole truth."

[heavy silo]

See that lore wise just doesn’t make sense

[hollow siren]

Prime ≠ first was a thing way before Rebb took over

[pale cedar]

Why doesn’t that make sense?

[hollow siren]

"Primes were reserved for the Prime Vanguard. The best of the best, and the rest... are adequate, I guess. If you're satisfied with merely adequate."

[heavy silo]

Because the lore has always been primes were first and our frames are made from post Orokin era materials

[dark compass]

Has it

[heavy silo]

Huh?

[pale cedar]

That’s literally saying Ballas wasn’t being fully honest with that info

That makes perfect sense

[hollow siren]

The frames we craft are fabricated copies, yes. But that has nothing to do with the nature of Primes

[heavy silo]

The primes were always the first hence prime

[pale cedar]

That’s literally saying the lore hasn’t always been that

[hollow siren]

"Prime" in this case refers to the strongest/best version, not the first version

[pale cedar]

Ballas didn’t tell the whole truth congrats you believed the manipulator

[dark compass]

Gg I was the manipulator

[normal mountain]

Guys, I think we found Ballas...

[heavy silo]

That def feals like a late stage post Steve lore retcon

[pale cedar]

It wasn’t

Either way it isn’t a retcon

It’s adding onto existing info

[dark compass]

It's like all you care about is invaidating Rebb's era lore

[heavy silo]

I mean if it over complicates this or doesn’t work sure?

[dark compass]

It works fine?

[pale cedar]

The existing info was Ballas told a half truth and Varzia added the bit he left out

[dark compass]

The most prominent manipulative ass of the game suddenly wasn't telling the whole truth

That sure does hurt the quality

[heavy silo]

So primes were first but wait no they weren’t but primes are the best but Orokin era warframes were prime but wait no they weren’t — doesnt seem to work

[dark compass]

Is it that hard to grasp

[heavy silo]

Not hard to grasp just screams no one noes the lore and goes with whatever per update - it doesn’t work

[pale cedar]

It really isn’t that hard to grasp

[dark compass]

Some frames started primed, some were made later

[normal mountain]

Tbf, it sounds like they're having a fundamental part of their lore understanding invalidated
This reaction makes sense in that context

[dark compass]

Ballas wasn't truthful when he said the first statement is universal to all of it

He lies, a lot.

[pale cedar]

Ballas is literally called the Golden Lord of lies

[hollow siren]

Warframes were Primed during the Orokin era ≠ every Warframe back then was Primed

[heavy silo]

This ends up being the lore then and that seems like a company problem where every update gets a whatever lore update

[dark compass]

Ok I think they have a problem with the updates after Steve and not the actual lore

[heavy silo]

Seems like just making an excuse not to deal with a very clear lore map

[dark compass]

Everything is clear enough

[heavy silo]

“So primes were first but wait no they weren’t but primes are the best but Orokin era warframes were prime but wait no they weren’t — doesnt seem to work”

[pale cedar]

Ballas just told a half truth of Primes were first which is a half truth
because some were

the bit he left out was not all were first

This is common sense

[normal mountain]

I can see why you feel that way
And in a way, it is
It's a loophole to give the team more creative freedom with whatever they decide to do later

[dark compass]

You are just piling up information without filtering it

[heavy silo]

Incorrect -filtered that is what you end up with

[dark compass]

Ballas said one thing, a character in universe.

He was not telling the whole truth.

Then we got a clearer picture that retroactively gives more creative freedom without contradicting the character

Because the character is literally called the lord of lies

Prime is a state that doesn't equal "initial state"

[hollow siren]

The Orbiter and Liset are Orokin-era tech, as is the Zariman. None of those have the typical Prime embellishments

[pale cedar]

Prime usually just means best many fighters are in there Prime but they weren’t when they were born

[hollow siren]

Ivara's Leverian tells of how that Ivara became Ivara Prime

[heavy silo]

So in lore we have the cheap - make with what you have on hand warframes - to then same wait no all warframes are cheap doesn’t after saying primes are the original throw most of the lore sideways

[dark compass]

What are you talking about by this point

[heavy silo]

I don’t think I’ve read that tab let me look it up

[dark compass]

You're just saying a mess of words

[heavy silo]

Yet again incorrect but solid try

[hollow siren]

Wow what a cool Prime shown in Ballas' personal journal

[hollow trench]

Some Warframes are stupid hard to grind for

So it does kind of check out

Like chroma

Or citrine
Or any frame that’s made with more scarce materials.
I don’t blame ya for being confused tbh

[heavy silo]

“Test subject”

[normal mountain]

I'm afraid I have to agree with them on this
You've condensed your statement a little too much by this point, and it's getting garbled

[hollow trench]

Equinox?

[dark compass]

How hard is it to grasp that some warframes were made for "standard" use that later were made into prime material, while others were initially designed as prime material

[hollow trench]

That’s a separate point from my point fyi

But also yes

[heavy silo]

Not confused it seems like they can’t keep track of lore and just go with whatever per update

[dark compass]

I'm talking about the original complaint

[hollow siren]

yeah, Excalibur was the first succesfully mutated Warframe. It was never stated he became Excalibur Prime, aka. the first Prime they ever added

[heavy silo]

With umbra added in now I think umbra might have been first?

[hollow siren]

No

Umbra was created near the end of the Old War

[normal mountain]

Umbra was not the first
He was one of the last, if anything

[heavy silo]

You have a point because natah destroys him originally

[dark compass]

Did you know that this line was added before the Rebb era.

[hollow siren]

we know Parvos was given the base Protea design he gave to Ballas, while the Orokin designed Protea Prime for themselves

[hollow trench]

That always throws me off when I hear it but neat

[dark compass]

[hollow siren]

Valkyr Prime has always been a big mystery and she's old

since the modern Valkyr is only that way because of how Alad tortured Valkyr Gersemi

[heavy silo]

No he built and designed it himself he then gets balls to execute the design

[hollow siren]

He designed her, gave Ballas the designs, and he got that design produced and given to him. But Protea Prime is a separate thing that Parvos doesn't have

[normal mountain]

I never liked that idea, but since Protea Prime showed up in the Old Peace, I'm forced to accept it as most likely
I always thought Protea Prime degraded into base due to her keeping the Granum Void intact

[hollow siren]

Individual Prime lore has always been vague and iffy at best, and just completely blank at worst

[normal mountain]

Garuda

[hollow siren]

Can't contradict any lore if there is none to begin with

[heavy silo]

See that’s the kinda lore that really makes it messy it would be protea prime that he got as that’s what her prime lore is about but in game we get a base raw materials version

[normal mountain]

WHERE'S THAT GARUDA LORE YOU PROMISED, DE?!

[normal mountain]

If you want to think about it that way, maybe consider:
"Why would Parvos give us the Prime version when we'd just use it against him?"

[heavy silo]

I wish something like that would be in lore but as is there’s no explanation

[hollow siren]

yeah several Primes refer to the Prime as the older version, but then others speak of the Prime as an enhancement developed from the base version

[pale cedar]

DE rarely tell us which model came first

[hollow siren]

"This master blade is the heavier, oversized and far more lethal version of the signature weapon of an extinct order of Tenno assassins." - Karyst Prime

"A classic Tenno blade, beautifully reimagined." - Pangolin Prime

[heavy silo]

Uriel for example should be a prime but there’s also talk of an entire army of Uriel’s under Roathe and it’s clear roathe is the bare materials version because he speaks of the original Uriel prime being made

[hollow siren]

yeah, Roathe just had the Uriel strain injected into him by Albrecht and was then dumped into XX99

no Prime Cybernetics installed

[heavy silo]

He also talks of the original being prime so idk why we get the not prime version in the old peace

[hollow siren]

He never says Uriel Prime was the original Uriel. That could be the case, but it has not been stated yet

[pale cedar]

He says he saw it happen not who came first

[heavy silo]

He says he was there when the original prime was made

[hollow siren]

He says he was there when Uriel Prime was finalized. No mention of it being the first

[heavy silo]

As primes are orginally the first in lore him saying that specially kinda says it is

[hollow siren]

yeah, originally the Tenno were also the Warframes

[pale cedar]

Primes aren’t originally first in lore nothing says this

[heavy silo]

There was no over lap in that add on tho so that doesn’t quite work how you think

[hollow siren]

I'm not gonna start referring to the J3-Golem when discussing Infested lore

[pale cedar]

Some were prime first some earned prime

That’s all we know

[heavy silo]

That just makes it seem like even DE doesn’t know its lore with that

[pale cedar]

We are very very very rarely told which model came first

They do though

Nothing has changed

You keep referencing old lore

And half truths

Ballas don’t tell the full story which is nothing new for him

[heavy silo]

Well if there was ever to be an excuse line used…..

[pale cedar]

It’s not an excuse

It’s Varzia saying what he missed out

[heavy silo]

This is what I’m saying is the excuse line it feels like something somewhere slipped out and messed up the lore and instead of correcting it they just let it ride

[normal mountain]

By that logic, Margulis lying to us for War Within was also an excuse

[heavy silo]

She does says she’ll tell us eventually

[pale cedar]

It’s not an excuse though it’s someone telling the truth

The truth isn’t something you can call an excuse

[heavy silo]

So every lore break is now just oh no it was a lie before- that’s a terrible way to go about basic lore

[pale cedar]

It’s not a lore break

It’s DE adding to existing lore

It doesn’t break anything

[heavy silo]

It’s an excuse if you can’t track your own lore

[hollow siren]

The lines describing Primes as purely the originals are older than this stuff

[pale cedar]

But they can and do

[heavy silo]

The second dream is adding to lore - this is just not being able to make up their mind on how the lore works

[normal mountain]

And half of that is pure speculation at best

[heavy silo]

The flesh line is because we’re infested too

[normal mountain]

Perhaps it is merely not wanting to make up their mind?
So they can do more interesting things as time goes one?

[hollow siren]

We know that now, yes

[heavy silo]

As you can see that doesn’t work out well 🤣

[normal mountain]

For you
Works just fine for me

[hollow siren]

J3-Golem was long before that tho

[normal mountain]

🤣

[pale cedar]

Not only quests tell lore dialogue can to by you’re logic Ballas would also be making an excuse because Primes being the original was told to us in an article which is almost 10 years old

[heavy silo]

Which suggests it was always the plan to have seeds this far back

[heavy silo]

An article?

[pale cedar]

Yes

[heavy silo]

No idea what you’re on about

[pale cedar]

That’s what said it in the first place

[hollow siren]

So now we wait for Hayden Tenno to appear as the first Tenno and the first Excalibur

[heavy silo]

Different game

[normal mountain]

In that case, I recommend we drop this discussion
It has been going nowhere for quite a while, and I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon

[hollow siren]

"Hayden Tenno was confirmed to be the first Tenno in Dev Stream 10"

[heavy silo]

Dev stream 🚫 in game lore

Again, different game

[hollow siren]

I know that, I'm saying that your consistent pulling from ancient lore texts are not the most accurate sources

in-game text implies Dark Sector is from a time before the Orokin Empire, but we know Dark Sector and Warframe have no connection in-universe

"The Lotus" was originally a covert organization helping the Tenno, but then with Natah they changed it to be just the woman talking to us over transmissions

the game's lore changing sharply is far from a new thing

[strange turtle]

There’s also the original idea of “Emperors” that got dragged behind Steve’s shed and shot, functionally replaced with the council of Executors until Old Peace when they were brought back

[hollow siren]

Steve has also not been directly in charge of the writing since before they got a dedicated writer team for The Second Dream

creative director oversees the general creative vision and direction of the game's theme and design at large

[pale cedar]

Lead designer brings it to life

And writers make the scripts

Of dialogue

[hollow siren]

it's okay to not be a fan of the game's current state, but you can't really blame it as a recent thing that happened due to Rebb taking over Steve's role

[pale cedar]

Even with Steve as CEO now and being more involved with Soulframe he hasn’t just ignored Warframe

He’s literally in the Devstreams

Works with the 2 teams

[proper barn]

Okay but you would be wrong.

Maybe that's too mean. But every Reb Update. I'm counting the Zariman as the first. Was a banger.

Like I even said since diemos it's only being going like "UP" in quality and goodness. But since Reb took over I would say it's even more that.

[pale cedar]

Nick wasn’t saying any were bad he was saying it’s okay not like it

[proper barn]

@hollow siren you can not tell me. If you played Warframe let's say before 2020. That if you played even the sane content not any new content but just the same content as pre-2020 that Warframe doesn't feel better and isn't less annoying in so many places.

[proper barn]

I'm saying that like doesn't make sense.

[pale cedar]

It doesn’t make sense for a person to have an opinion?

[proper barn]

It's okay to not like it sure but it's not from a rational place. Like it would be for outside of warframe reasons.

Like burnout or moving on in your life.

And such. Not the game itself.

[pale cedar]

Nick wasn’t even saying he does or doesn’t

[crimson bobcat]

i probably have ida what might be in tau so sence ballas made deal with sentients and the whole OG archon amar was showed before erra turned him to New war verzion what if tau sistem is under narmer afther all even pazully saying he geting orders from tau

[proper barn]

I know.

[pale cedar]

Then you don’t really need to say anything

Since he wasn’t

[proper barn]

I'm just saying if someone dislikes current warframe if they have any self awareness they should realise its not material to the game.

Cuz if you where to play the exact same like missions and stuff as you did like in 2015 or something. You would have a better experience.

[pale cedar]

If someone doesn’t like current Warframe then they have an opinion

That’s literally all it is

[proper barn]

Yes but thinking like current warframe is materially worse is like a disagreement with a fact. Okay it's like the difference between like "Stanley Kubrick is a world renowned director" and "I don't like Kubricks movies". You can realize like the quality in something or someone's work and for your own personal reasons dislike it.

[sudden shard]

what happens in f20 descendia for roathe to be like “dont kill me”

are we just shooting him for shits and giggles

[pale cedar]

No

Memory stuff

[hollow siren]

I literally never said that, so bringing it up is irrelevant

[swift gyro]

guys, all warframes are supposed to have a proto version or there is warframes that didnt had a proto?

[hollow siren]

Protos are not directly related to the respective regular Warframe

Albrecht injected Arthur with Excalibur strain, but Arthur has nothing to do with the Excalibur Warframes

the only exception is Flare, since they're the only person who have ever gotten their strain, so Albrecht named it after them

so the answer is no, far from all Warframes have known Protoframes made after them

[swift gyro]

its like a liquid that give the powers of a warframe (per example arthur recived the excalibur strain) but who created the powers of the warframe was ballas?

[hollow siren]

Ballas is believed to have invented the Helminth, yes

If not on his own then he was at least heavily involved in its creation

[dark compass]

Liquid that slowly transforms you into a warframe

[hollow siren]

He oversaw general Warframe production afterwards

[dark compass]

But it's controlled enough that you get the powers before succumbing fully

Meanwhile someone like Umbra would become dysfunctional until it's too late

[hollow siren]

All Protoframes so far have been due to Albrecht, he essentially "stops" the mutation partway-through

although "stop" is more like slows it down greatly

[dark compass]

But it CAN progress, if we look at Temple

[swift gyro]

how exactly did ballas built warframes if the designs were stole by albrecht? or ballas already crafted some warframes at that point?

[hollow siren]

given time they'll fully mutate

[hollow siren]

Protoframes are due to Albrecht using Helminth tech

[strange turtle]

It’s not the powers of the warframe it just makes you the frame, but the later parts of the process is slowed down so it doesn’t complete

[pale cedar]

DE hiding the lore in notes many players won’t bother finding is my one gripe with it

[hollow siren]

the Entrati family were highly esteemed, the exact details of how they were given access to Helminth tech is unclear but it was likely some deal struck

maybe between Ballas and Grandmother

[swift gyro]

no like, how did albrechet or ballas (idk who created the strain) made it possible to put a specific warframe power there:? or DE havent showed us yet?

[hollow siren]

The nature of Warframes is explained in the quest "The Sacrifice"

[opaque panther]

Do you think adding a reputation affinity booster increasing the limit from 25k to 35-40k would be a good idea?

[dark compass]

It's just an edited form of infestation. Inject and it's taking over

[strange turtle]

Ballas made warframes, they’re not separate “powers” they’re just part of the frame

[hollow siren]

Specialized Helminth strains can either be created from scratch, or they just injected a person and extracted a strain from whatever they mutated into

[silk atlas]

They are things you can just design. Parvos did it and he didn't even have access to the stuff to make Warframes anyway.

[hollow siren]

Well he designed Protea, he didn't actually make the strain

He pretty much just drew his OC and asked them to make her real

[dark compass]

"she's a rich girl who is a professional engineer and her grenades are also restoring shields and those shields are better at shield gating than everyone else"

"and she has time control powers"

"she likes money and hates Nef Anyo"

"and she has unique dodge roll animations"

[hollow siren]

And Ballas pulled the "Time control is impossible everyone knows that stop goofing", not knowing Parvos had the secret time control orokin tech in his pocket

[swift gyro]

Is the original frames (the first of a specific warframe) stronger than our copies?

[proper barn]

No?

[swift gyro]

just making sure, i read a post about this topic on reddit but didnt had any answers. thx.

[silk atlas]

The frames are the exact same thing because the Foundry makes an exact replica.

[swift gyro]

ah okay. thx

[humble sierra]

Guys am I crazy or is Blood Queen Nitokh connected to Gore Queen Garuda?

[loud oriole]

mayhaps, i wouldn't put it past the Seven to have their own personal 'pet' warframe that does their own respective duties

[strange plinth]

crazy because they'd never give garuda lore /s
it would be cool if garuda was tied to Nitokh in some way

[swift saffron]

Hey does anyone know how accurate the TennoTyper is?

[fast dew]

Alternatively, Albrecht was a goober and stole shit

[strange plinth]

this would be an interesting concept actually
or even just ballas making warframes symbolizing the other executors if they weren't directly "commissioned"

[loud oriole]

plus it could play into his games he likes to play. don't agree with his proposals, welp looks like your personal frame is going to turn you into cherry kool-aid

[swift saffron]

Wasn't that before Albrechts experiments? Like after he made contact but before his crash out? Or am I misremembering?
Also aren't the protoframes graystrain and not regular helminth strain?

[strange plinth]

gray strain makes things big, was used in the Vessels
the protos are still regular helminth

[swift saffron]

Ah I thought he used the graystrain so he can establish a connection between Arthur and the vessels. And iirc tech it isn't regular infestation either

[swift saffron]

I mean we know through protea that with enough influence you could have one comissioned

[strange plinth]

the vessels were made w/ samples of the protos, that's their connection
techrot is the strain of infestation active during 1999, eventually would become the primary strain we know of

[swift saffron]

Ah okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

[loud oriole]

so wait.
Entrati went back in time to make the link between his vessels and the protos, but needed the samples of said protos to make the vessels.

-# man, eternalism needs to come with either a bottle of jack or some aspirin.

[fast dew]

He didnt go to 1999 for the vessles

[strange plinth]

his motivations for making the protos are still unclear. the vessels came after, though, a suggestion from Loid

[fast dew]

We dont know why, but he did

[wind ruin]

I think Albrecht's idea, echoed by Roathe, is this; make the Vessels as huge as possible so that The Man In The Wall can inhabit one of them, and make additional Vessels so that the people he picked to be Protoframes can inhabit them too (every one of those Vessels is keyed to one of the protoframes, if you look close), and then have a big-ass fight to beat the Indifference down, locking it in a Vessel so that it can't pull all the void manipulation anymore.

[fast dew]

Ehh

[wind ruin]

I'm very sure that the Orokin are incapable of comprehending that something is bigger and more mysterious than they can control.

[fast dew]

Roathe is working on assumptions, we know exactly what the vessels are for. They are built to fight wally, the only reason why wally can use one is because we would need to.

[fast dew]

Also, funnily enough, it was not Albrecht's idea to make them so big.

That was Loid :)

[loud oriole]

🙏 bless our 'butler' who hits the sassiest pose in the old peace

[strange plinth]

that room looks so much bigger in the quest,,

[loud oriole]

he is SERVING 💅

[stiff beacon]

the cutscene adds extra sq footedge

[loud oriole]

TIL i learned Loid has a septum

[fast dew]

Septum piercing truthers stay winning

[fast dew]

He doesn't always, it was supposed to be removed.

Now it's a quantum septum piercing

[loud oriole]

the eternalism septum

[fast dew]

Its a good way to explain eternalism tbh

[strange plinth]

it exists in cutscenes but not his in-game model iirc

[fast dew]

Weird thing is, they're the same model.

[strange plinth]

yea,
then again, pazuul has a similar thing w/ the massive archon shard in his head

[fast dew]

They don't change models, its the same one, the septum piercing just leaves when we're in the sanctum lol

[lean garden]

Loid cleans his nose ring

[fast dew]

Spaghetti code gonna Spaghetti code

[fast dew]

Good, its important to do that

[lean garden]

do you know how dirty it gets every cutscene??

so much sand flying around

[fast dew]

You should clean it every other day

[lean garden]

decently good

sometime slightly inaccurate

because its trying to achieve a phonics based language with just letters

and good luck trying to harvest sound to make text from purely written texts

[ocean geyser]

Me when the Murmur are coming

[fast dew]

Fun fact, Loid checks his nails despite wearing gloves

[ocean geyser]

Maybe his gloves have nails

The zariman suits do
For some reason

[fast dew]

His doesn't iirc

[ocean geyser]

Also
Considering Zariman Five-Nine
How many Zarimans are there, then?

[fast dew]

Well, its not a zariman suit but yk

[strange plinth]

'how many golden curse pods, tenno? enough for planet? for whole system?'
probably quite a few of the five series
ours, 10-0, was the last
we don't have detail on any of the others afaik

[unique talon]

I wonder: how many characters are after entrati now

How going to tau help us leads to him?

[strange plinth]

"Tau is in sight"
he's there. or heading there

[brazen seal]

First we need to relive more memories

I mean traumas

So much potential on that dark refactory

[swift saffron]

Yea I know tenno is technically written like Asien languages where you write the sounds and not the letters. But as long as it's accurate enough that's fine for me. Don't want to be the guy that gets "chicken soup" as a tattoo you know

[lean garden]

which Asian languages lmao

[swift saffron]

Chinese and Japanese afaik

[lean garden]

yea nah

chinese is not phonetic

its logographic

[swift saffron]

Japanese is tho right? At least some systems

[lean garden]

not sure

might be that hirigana

yeap hiragana and katagana

not kanji tho, kanji is in the same boat as chinese for obvious reasons

[swift saffron]

As long as I'm not in "chicken soup" territory with it I'm fine

[lean garden]

anyway its impossible for you to chicken soup yourself with tennobet unless you specifically type out chicken soup

[swift saffron]

Also help my memory: it can be written both left to right and up to down, right?
@lean garden

[lean garden]

woof, uh

its usually left to right

but theres the cyclical shape version which I myself am not sure how its arranged

you tryna get a tat?

[fast dew]

Ive been meaning to do so ngl

Cept i aint getting a script tattoo as my first one

[swift saffron]

Yea

[swift saffron]

I have a Destiny and a Blood born tattoo on my right arm already

[lean garden]

in that case try to look up the cyclical version

imo if you want a tat that designs the one you want

[swift saffron]

Yea there's not much info on the actual writing, and they can't be too small otherwise they won't work

[lean garden]

if you can figure out how they wrote hayden tenno, then you might be able to figure out how its supposed to be written

[swift saffron]

Since the letters are written left to right and up to down I'm assuming that's how they're supposed to be written

[lean garden]

then draw it up and ship it to your trusted tat artist

[swift saffron]

Already done

Just wanted to have a last check

[lean garden]

bing bang boon congrats on your new tat

[swift saffron]

Ye monday

[coral nest]

any ideas what this could be?

fell through the map and saw that

[strange plinth]

sky.. sphere prolly
what's normally projected around you when you're in the map

[coral nest]

ah hehe not some hidden secret

[fast dew]

Skysphere. If you can get into it, you can project yourself as the sky box lol

[coral nest]

oh nice ill have to try that next time i fall through with a flying frame

[swift gyro]

Guys, when or how did the helminth ´´spawned´´ in warframe? and how it works or isnt exactly explained yet?

[silk atlas]

We don't know. It was just a thing the Orokin Empire had to deal with. Techrot is its ancestory but its origin is also not explained

[lean garden]

seems engineered, as according to what ballas said

[hushed vine]

I want to feed it my operator/drifter

[lean garden]

since roathe can create a helminth using his own blood

[swift gyro]

isnt used to do warframes? or helminth and infestation arent the same thing?

[silk atlas]

Helminth is a kind of Infestation

[hushed vine]

It's part of the hive mind, but serves the demon

[lilac aspen]

Helminth is a type of infestation that makes our frames of war

The goat

The reason Roathe could make one is due to the fact he got injected with the serum

Though it’s still pretty impressive
Considering the lack of technology

Bro got yeeted into a time that was basically the Unga bunga era in comparison to his era and still managed to do it

[hushed vine]

Unga bunga era is wild.

[lilac aspen]

Well compared to the era of cloning tech
Immortality
Highly adaptive robots
Etc,

Yeah it would be pretty much Unga Bunga to an Orokin

[hollow trench]

It’s the silly plant that eats people from little shop of horrors

[iron tiger]

Why is adis called truth bloom

[strange plinth]

its his name
he says so
why he has the name "truth-bloom", dunno.

[hushed vine]

Cause he blooms with truth

[fast dew]

I personally like to think "truth bloom" is what adis means :)

[woven scaffold]

I understand you now Alberth Entrati

[fast dew]

I've always understood it

On both sides, but for me to understand Loid, It needs to be bluebrecht

[tepid burrow]

Has anyone translated the murals in XX99, or the 3 books laid out?

[marble pewter]

Found the murals were translated on WF lore Reddit by Supra_IZ

[tepid burrow]

Cool. I've got the same, I just misread the last word on the right as Jaz and figured I should double check, since "Illuminate our Jazz" didn't feel appropriate lol

[marble pewter]

The middle one is actually Summum Bonum - Latin for greater good

[tepid burrow]

Is this the first confirmed usage of Latin?

[marble pewter]

It feels like it yea..This is the first time I came across a Latin word in Warframe texts

And it makes sense in a way, considering the time the triad is from

[tepid burrow]

What about these books by Roathe?

[marble pewter]

Damn that’ll definitely take a while for me to translate 😂

[lean garden]

#lore-discussion message

[marble pewter]

But I am very curious

[lean garden]

@marble pewter you too

[tepid burrow]

Thank you! I was struggling to get a good enough image to start translating

[marble pewter]

Oh!! Thank you Bau

[heavy silo]

Hey I’m looking for the lore about flair waiting on an asteroid after he fully becomes temple where can I find that?

[lean garden]

gotta complete the good ending for flare on the KIMs

[strange plinth]

they
and the email is kinda it, there's nothing else tmk

[heavy silo]

Is it just text?

[lean garden]

yeap

[heavy silo]

Last convo I had with him was when Lizzie had taken over him and the ending was just perhaps if you set the clocks back we’ll talk again ta ta for now

[fast dew]

Chat what are the lore implications of Albrecht seemingly owning a clothing store 😭

[strange plinth]

maybe that's how he paid for his coffee

[heavy silo]

He loops “I’m blue da ba Dee bah ba dah” all day long in his store

[fast dew]

Maybe I was too harsh on saying he stole shit from 1999

Maybe he (and Loid) were fashion icons and made banger clothes

[marble pewter]

So who’s the “wanderer” they’re referring to? Albrecht?

[heavy silo]

Doc Martin is actually an acronym for Doc Entrati

[fast dew]

Where does the e come fro. 💔

[lean garden]

no idea

[fast dew]

Actually tho he does wear em

[lean garden]

the whole text seems to be more about dualism than whatever entrati is

[marble pewter]

Ah alright hmm

[fast dew]

Docs on the manipulative stoner bisexual: fork found in kitchen

[dire mountain]

Unlikely

Its just people making loose connections between nitokh and garuda

[dapper bloom]

do you guys think that Marie and Lyon are siblings in the religious sense? since they have different surnames, or maybe different father

[dire mountain]

Its not as much of a religious sense as it is them being so close its akin to being siblings afaik

[heavy silo]

I don’t think so they seem to just be part of the same religious order when she calls him brother its colloquially

[dapper bloom]

thats what i thought just now, i didnt realize the different names

unless they address it in the coming days on the KIM system

another thing that just clicked on me is that Albrecht's notes says something about religion and forgiveness but i forgot about it, maybe its related

it was so long ago now

[dire mountain]

Yeah it was definitely jarring hearing him talk about all that just to see him in 1999

Not entirely sure what he's playing at. Like I get he was "guiding" the drifter into saving the hex with the reverse psychology (because he needed them to have a connection to the vessels) but he was still doing the same thing: using people and then disposing of them once he got what he needed out of them

[heavy silo]

I think DE is trying to write him as an elusive anti-hero but he just comes off like a self interested duck head (duck so I don’t get flagged)

[fast dew]

Mm. DE being inconsistent with their writing. Impossible.

[fast dew]

He talks about it for sure. "If I am to be a devil, let me be a honest one", and he wonders what place spirituality has in science

[heavy silo]

Let’s actually work to correct that 🤣

[fast dew]

Literally anything but that quest shows him in a much better light

Kaya has a line in temporal Archimedia talking about how when she found Albrecht, he would just let her talk about her theories.

I like to think he does it cuz it reminds him of his daughter

[fast dew]

"When I'd talk to Entrati about particle physics and the Void, and I LOVE to talk about that stuff, he would just, like, listen to me blather on. But I could tell, by the look in his eye, when I had things right and wrong."

[narrow pendant]

albrecht wife mention

[frail harness]

Chat how consistent of a timeline is known about wardrame's lore

[strange plinth]

the gaps between events are more the unknown than the order they go in
XX99 is the only one that's really up for debate i believe

[frail harness]

I mainly just wanna know the chronological order of the Zariman incident, the Naga Drums, The Old Peace, and maybe if we had an estimated time on how long ago roathe's part in the old war was

I have very little sense of scale for the game's timeline and it irks it

[humble sierra]

XX99
?
1999
???
Orokin Empire formed
????????
Sentients
Zariman
???
Old War
Old Peace
Old War finale
Night of the Naga Drums
Cryosleep
?????
Awakening
the rest of the game

[frail harness]

Interesting, I knew naga drums was later on but I didnt realise quite how much

[strange plinth]

yea the scale is weird
Arkadia's got it tho
i'm not sure what part of the old war roathe was in
haven't gotten too far into his chats and/or i've missed obvious indicatiors

[frail harness]

To be honest all I know about his part in it is his interaction in the Cathedrale, not a Kim chat

[dapper bloom]

right! so now we have this 2 religious people

[frail harness]

(Old peace spoilers idk if I have to spoiler mark here or not lol)

Im just wondering how long it had been since his ||Uriels were fighting on perita, and thus how old the Uriel we find in old peace is||

[restive river]

No exacts but all frames were made during the Old War

[fast dew]

||dead, and from an arranged marriage :)||

[frail harness]

I know that, but the old war is a big window

[fast dew]

I mean

[restive river]

It is
And that’s all we have

[strange plinth]

based on the fact that the treaty is still a "work in progress" at the start of the quest, i can't imagine the peace was around for more than a few months
maybe up to a year

[fast dew]

Its short enough for Loid to have been around for the start of it, until at least the old peace

[restive river]

||Peace was likely never really an option to the Orokin||

[narrow pendant]

yeah i suspected the arranged part, from the possibility of albrecht not being bi and the marriage being mostly for offspring

[fast dew]

THATS WHAT IM SAYIN

[narrow pendant]

greek/roman culture is what the orokin are partly inspired by

[humble sierra]

Zooming in slightly more

??????? - Orokin realized they were draining resources of the Sol System
Sentients - Created to send to Tau, took too long, hence they sent the
Zariman - Void Jump incident by the time the Sentients got to Tau, then the Sentients realized the Orokin would ruin Tau too, so they rebelled, starting the
Old War - Where the Orokin realized their weapons were susceptible to the Sentients' adaptation, so Necramechs and then Warframes were made, but they were inefficient until the Zariman Returned and the Operators' ability to calm Warframes was discovered, so with this new power they were able to drive back the Sentients until the Sentients ate Xenoflora, spawning
Old Peace - A brief treaty

[fast dew]

Oh, and the first part of the war must've been really short, or short enough

[frail harness]

Im really curious to learn more about the old war and the night of naga drums

I can only remember 1(?) cutscene set during the old war (other than the end of the old peace quest I guess)

[restive river]

KIM spoilers
||iirc it was Scarne who proposed the idea to leave asap||

[restive river]

Erra cutscene is all we got other than the newest quest

[humble sierra]

The Awakening cinematic was set during the Night of the Naga Drums, and the Erra cutscene is set after the war restarts

[frail harness]

Ah yea thats what I thought, hope to see more at some point

[fast dew]

We know Flare/Temple was there too!

[frail harness]

Granted idek how much of the old war was actually fought with the tenno lol

[restive river]

Technically it woulda been a bit after since it was right before the big nap but yeah

[frail harness]

I know for a while they used just warframes

[restive river]

Oh and we get a single scene of Stalker being saved by Jade lol

[strange plinth]

literal freeze-frame of it

[humble sierra]

That was a very brief period, because the Warframes quickly went berserk

[frail harness]

Actually, since Roathe's men were turned into Uriels and (as far as we know) not piloted by Tenno, they must have been pretty early in the old war right?

Maybe even the main perpetrators of the Warframes' madness

One did get crucified on Perita for a reason

[restive river]

Sentients broke all their tech
They had the dax
They came up with Necramechs and Warframes
Warframes were better til they turned and were shelved
Then the tenno showed up sometime later and fought in the war
Then the Old Peace happened

[humble sierra]

Tenno specifically calmed Warframes. Since Uriels were made as punishment to Roathe and his army, it's unlikely they were given any Tenno.

[restive river]

No that’s just the infestation

[frail harness]

I didnt mean they caused the madness i meant they'd be the most obvious form of it given its an entire army of warframes

[restive river]

I can see that being why Stalker didn’t get one
Jade probably got one so she could be better controlled as a weapon

[fast dew]

Yk us going a bit insane and killing folk in the academy probably didn't help

[frail harness]

Yeah that was why I assumed they had no pilots

[narrow wigeon]

So just to drop this here randomly
Riell .... U-riell
Have fun

[restive river]

What

[frail harness]

Idk what thats supposed to lead me to lol

[strange plinth]

what

[frail harness]

Are you trying to imply a connection to rell or what

[restive river]

Of which there is none

I remember when people were claiming Uriel was in the Chains of Harrow quest trailer
When
It wasn’t lmao

[narrow wigeon]

All the voicelines of operator after getting into Uriel during the quest are spoken in chains of harrow

[frail harness]

..because Wally is involved

[strange plinth]

because they're letting "the voices" take hold?

[narrow wigeon]

In the walls

[restive river]

Wally do be manipulating us lmao

[humble sierra]

That's a Man in the Wall thing, not a Harrow/Rell thing

[strange plinth]

that's a link to wally, not rell

[frail harness]

The voices in the walls are the man in the wall, who has been Manipulating the tenno since the zariman

[restive river]

Rap tap tap is a Wally thing

[pale cedar]

Warframe players thinking Rell created Rap Tap Tap for the 1000th time

[narrow wigeon]

Noted, im correcting my theories

[humble sierra]

"Rap tap tap, you'll let me in little piggy" was said by Rell, but it was likely Wally speaking through him-- and it's most likely Rell being tortured by Operator's emotions more than anything

Chronologically, Operator is first to say that specific phrase

[narrow wigeon]

I was more intrigued by the fac that the rap tap tap goes waay back and possible made then

[frail harness]

Oh also to add on to what someone(i forget who) said, I dont think Roathe's men were turned as a punishment

In fact I am fairly certain they were not

[humble sierra]

"Rap tap tap" is something people naturally come to the conclusion to when they hear MITW

[narrow wigeon]

Yes, this

Gotchu, thanks

[pale cedar]

They offered themselves

[frail harness]

According to Roathe, his men were turned into Uriels to honor him, becoming a legion of warframes

[strange plinth]

ye i thought it was willing from them
a devotion thing

[humble sierra]

Oh my bad

Wait, I mean, "Wow that's crazy, who would say something that stupid"

[strange plinth]

meh
most of the frames we know about pre-framing were framed as punishment
so its a safe assumption in most cases
stalker, jade, umbra, yareli, mirage maybe?
vs dagath, gara. uh.

[frail harness]

Roathe talking about it, for those curious or who dont remember it

[fast dew]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1447039990847504535/1448726608981659689/IMG_0074.gif

[strange plinth]

the albr-orb

[pale cedar]

It’s always been said as volunteers or not

[fast dew]

Get orb'd

https://tenor.com/view/sog-cat-soggy-cat-sogged-cat-get-sogged-get-real-gif-26481153

[frail harness]

I still wanna see a high-ranking long-armed orokin turned into a warframe

[fast dew]

Well.

Roathe is high ranking

He's literally second to an executor

[strange plinth]

and her consort apparently

[frail harness]

But he isnt a warframe and doesnt have the long right arm

[pale cedar]

He is a Warframe

Protos are still Warframes

[frail harness]

Not really

[strange plinth]

the transformation just isn't complete

[frail harness]

They are different visually, functionally, and also in terms of the social/ethical implications of their existence

One of the most interesting things to me about warframes is the tragedy of being made into an infested killing machine unable to even speak anymore, usually as some form of punishment, just to have your shell reproduced and reused ad nauseum even after youre dead

[pale cedar]

If you turned a high ranking long arm Orokin into a fully transformed Warframe they’d lose the long arm so the rank would be all that matters so Uriel still counts

[frail harness]

Protoframes will only ever really be partially based on existing warframes

Except temple but thats an exception not the norm

[strange plinth]

as for the long arm, i get the feeling roathe wasn't much for the "generosity" that it was supposed to represent

[pale cedar]

A partial Warframe is still a Warframe

[frail harness]

To be fair most of the orokin robably weren't

Mother on deimos doesnt seem super generous either lol

[frail harness]

Yeah but its a little different than an actual warframe in a lot of ways and I think its a little dismissive to ignore all the narrative differences between them

[pale cedar]

The only difference is they have a face and can talk

[frail harness]

No?

[pale cedar]

Yes

They have all the same abilities

[frail harness]

Transference bolts? Infested madness? Mass reproduction?

Why be in the lore chat if youre gonna ignore narrative differences lol

[fast dew]

Yk if i had a dollar for every time a orokin had a complex relationship with their "lesser", id have 3 dollars

[fast dew]

... yes. Literally yes, except for the last thing

They have all of those.

Its like

[strange plinth]

i mean, the protos are part of the mass-production, in a way
the infested madness is not overwhelming, but its still there. i believe each of the hex have a line or two in the backroom about the helminth not shutting up
transference bolts are there or will form eventually

[pale cedar]

They also have to deal with Infested Madness this is even a plot point in the quest

[fast dew]

Yeah

Its also like. Why Flare fears Lizzie

[frail harness]

Yeah but I think its a little misguided to pretend the protoframes have the exact same dynamic with their transformations as the warframes do

[fast dew]

They literally do

They eventually will become warframes

[strange plinth]

arguably the protos have it worse. that's a much longer transformation than regular frames

[tall echo]

-#

[fast dew]

That's happens with flare

The rest all died in the radwars. Probably.

[tall echo]

Or normal combat, who knows

[pale cedar]

They do and deal with everything a regular frame does

[fast dew]

All we know is that they died. Either then or radwars

[frail harness]

I think whats being missed is i specifically said I wanted a high-ranking orokin that was turned into a warframe, and I want that because of the societal implications of a high-ranking member being turned into Body Horror ™ by the empire theyre part of

[fast dew]

Well

[frail harness]

The dynamic the protoframes lack that the warframes have is the society and politics behind their creation

[pale cedar]

Roathe is that

[tall echo]

Ohhh wait the dark sector skins technically don't even break lore if considered canon... funny

[fast dew]

You won't find another orokin being warframe'd, that's for sure.

[frail harness]

Roathe was just Albrecht screwing around, not the Empire's corruption

[pale cedar]

Roathe is a high ranking Orokin

[fast dew]

... guess what empire Albrecht was in

[frail harness]

Albrecht is as far from the Orokin Empire as they get

[fast dew]

Guess what Albrecht is.

[frail harness]

He specifically hates them 😭

[fast dew]

... he's an orokin

[tall echo]

DE saying roach is "the first orokin protoframe" makes me doubt that

[fast dew]

He is a orokin.

[frail harness]

Yes very good I know

And yet he doesnt like or participate in the empire

[strange plinth]

it is certainly a choice of phrasing

[frail harness]

Which is what I was saying

[pale cedar]

Because he was kidnapped

[fast dew]

He literally looked like this

[frail harness]

Yes I know and he left

[fast dew]

.... Albrecht uh. Did continuity.

He did that

[frail harness]

And then he quit?? Because he didnt like the empire??

[fast dew]

No? He didn't quit cuz of the empire lol

[tall echo]

Albrecht did void science just to be recognized

[frail harness]

Its like a brick wall damn

[fast dew]

He... didn't quit because of the empire

He quit because he was scared he was Wally.

[pale cedar]

Albrecht never left the Empire he left the future to protect Loid

[fast dew]

Mhm.

[frail harness]

The reason he quit does not really factor in at all to the fact that he no longer participates in the empire, the people he makes into protoframes are the result of his whims and not systemic corruption of the empire like every other warframe

[pale cedar]

He never quit

[strange plinth]

-# you can tell he's still Very Much An Orokin based on his notes on the atomicycle

[fast dew]

He never quit, he's only a white man cuz he needed to blend into 1999

[pale cedar]

Not doing something other Orokin do doesn’t actually mean you quit the empire

[fast dew]

-# (benevolently)

[tall echo]

Regular frames also aren't a result of the empire's corruption

[fast dew]

Its just Ballas lol

[tall echo]

They're a result of desperation

[fast dew]

Also

Albrecht designed a warframe as well

Qorvex is his design

[pale cedar]

No Orokin have ever actually quit the Empire

[frail harness]

A corrupt leader is corruption of the empire

[tall echo]

No corrupt leader behind it either

[fast dew]

He... wasnt really corrupt compared to other orokin ngl

[frail harness]

The other executors of the empire allowed ballas to operate in his schemes (and performed schemes against one another)

[fast dew]

They literally hated it 😭

[pale cedar]

They didn’t know half the time

[frail harness]

Maybe the real infested madness is discord

[pale cedar]

He plotted to kill them behind their back

[tall echo]

Hey so new lore, the executors aren't even the absolute top dogs

[fast dew]

If multiple people are telling you that something is wrong, maybe you're the issue 😭

[pale cedar]

You don’t have to be on discord

[frail harness]

Nah tbh I fully think i am just not illustrating my point well and am taking the L in social interaction

But usually its easier to like just ignore my own communication issues and just hit the :

Im fairly certain im just not communicating well because you guys are right but also not about what im tryna talk about like at all

[fast dew]

Personal favourites

[tall echo]

Then phrase your stuff better

[frail harness]

Easier said than done im afraid 😭

"Have better communication" is not a command that just makes people better at it lmaoo

[pale cedar]

Let’s see

Albrecht and Roathe never quit the Empire as nothing says this

Protoframes are free of Infested madness

Eleanor literally succumbed to it

Protoframes don’t act like regular frames

They have the exact same move set in every way

[tall echo]

Yeah I know, I'm dealing with the same stuff

[fast dew]

Hey man, I struggle with explaining shit too, ask nemesis, they've dealt with me and my stupid communication issues.

Just reword it all

[strange plinth]

also albrecht using monospaced font is based as hell
-# idk why i like monospaced font so much its just a fun style

[tall echo]

It's a lot of work, but necessary to not completely mess up social stuff

[fast dew]

Albrecht types funny and speaks weird :) I love him

[frail harness]

With infested madness i meant the protoframes never got to a point where an empire started shovin magic children in their heads to get them to cooperate lol, thats the kind of systemic torment I meant warframes had but protoframes have not

I didnt mean they got no madness whatsoever

I meant like. The whole "infested madness" deal with the warframes overall

Including the fix

[pale cedar]

The children not being there is why the Infested Madness can take them over

[frail harness]

Yes I know that, I never said that wasnt the case

[strange plinth]

there are multiple chats about drifter popping into their heads to stave off the madness
but they're not actively exhibiting symptoms of the madness, no

[pale cedar]

Eleanor

[frail harness]

I probably just never got half of them lol I only realised a few days ago theres a "get all Kim chats" setting

I missed a TON of convos, I noticed when checking Eleanor's romance path in Kimulacrum

I romanced Eleanor on my first loop and missed maybe her most emotionally important convo 🥀

[strange plinth]

yea, she is actively resisting the techrot actually
only falls in during arguably the most stressful sequence of the year when she's already had to let them in a little to control them

[pale cedar]

The funny thing about the Infestation is it always wins over in the end unless your a Void entity

Even Protos will get full framed eventually

Loop only slows down the inevitable

[stray herald]

Ballas represents envy, nitokh is gluttony

[strange plinth]

may i ask what led to those?
curious on the reasoning

[tall echo]

Karishh:

[stray herald]

For nitokh, it was bc roathe described her with this exact word ‘hunger’ in her senses

[pale cedar]

Nitohk is more lust

I don’t think that hunger was hunger for food

[tall echo]

Karishh literally grafted multiple extra stomachs to himself to eat more

[stray herald]

Duh

Godfrey much?

[pale cedar]

Nitokh more had hungers for literal blood baths

Not the battle kind

[tall echo]

Grafting existed before elden ring

[frail harness]

Hunger for more also fits into Greed

[stray herald]

Its more of nitokh not tolerating peace

[frail harness]

Also godrick grafted not godfrey

[stray herald]

Also said in roathe’s VM

[tall echo]

So... wrath

[stray herald]

Wrath is associated with anger

I dont see a correlation to thrill seeking

[pale cedar]

We need more Executor lore cuz of what Roathe said about the worst Orokin

[narrow pendant]

i think oraxia too? unless its another ballas design he owned

[tall echo]

I don't see a correlation between that and gluttony so, back to square one

[pale cedar]

All we know of Avantus is she got killed for bringing the regular Orokin self

Maybe Tuvul would be Pride because he thought the Zariman would work in one jump

[tall echo]

Tuvul seems easily angered

Hm

[narrow pendant]

i still wonder why we havnt heard at all from the emperors except for that they existed

[pale cedar]

Because we killed them

[stray herald]

Spiritually speaking, most orokin are numb. Nitokh, described by roathe, was fresh. We could say that peace would eventually dull her spirit, thats why she couldnt tolerate peace, thus breaking the peace between orokin and the sentients

[tall echo]

They only just revived the concept a few days ago

[narrow pendant]

even in the old peace, youd expect for them to be represented at least as much as the executors

[pale cedar]

Nah

[narrow pendant]

unless the execs are ranked above the emperors

[pale cedar]

Executors job is doing what Ballas did minus the flower stuff

[tall echo]

Executors act for the emperors

[pale cedar]

Hence the name

[tall echo]

Still not seeing how that equates to gluttony

Greed maybe

[pale cedar]

It’s like how UK parliament does all the running of the country while the Monarch is still Head of State

[narrow pendant]

Kareesh was literally called the glutton by drusus so that is out of question for nitokh

[narrow pendant]

fair

[frail harness]

Gluttony, in this case, isnt exclusively about food

Gluttony can also be a desire for excess, in other ways than greed

Still, I doubt nitohk is a better fit for gluttony than Karishh

[tall echo]

There is an executor whose whole thing is eating though so I think he's meant to be gluttony

[narrow pendant]

sure, but if we want to assign each exec to one of the sins then gluttony would be taken already

[stray herald]

greed is desire. I don't see any ambition towards, imo, thril seeking when the context given by roathe were that the orokin were spiritually numb due to their immortality

[frail harness]

My guesses, out of the executors I know anything about:

Karishh - Gluttony
Nitohk - Wrath
Tuvul - Greed
Avantus - Sloth
Ballas - Pride

Tuvul may not entirely be Greed i dont have a fantastic fit for him

Avantus was very anti doing anything, from the tiny amount we know. She died trying to sacrifice others to save her skin

[tall echo]

Avantus doesn't have much characterization

[frail harness]

Yeah thats true

[stray herald]

she didn't desire ranking or precious items. not from what I have read. nor was she particularly angry or spiteful of the old peace

[frail harness]

But from the 2 sentences we know, I dont think sloth is a bad dart toss

[tall echo]

Ohh ye that's a good point tho

[pale cedar]

We only just learned about the rest and Roathe hasn’t mentioned them

[frail harness]

Nitohk is wrath to me because she hated the empire. She wanted to eradicate it

That is wrath, to its core

[tall echo]

Eh, there wasn't much hatred in the decision itself

[frail harness]

Karishh is obvious

[tall echo]

Roathe makes it sound like nitokh just went "yeah idk time to regicide lol"

[frail harness]

Karishh as gluttony kinda speaks for itself i feel, so does Ballas as pride

[stray herald]

did u miss the part where she doesn't like peace

[frail harness]

One doesnt topple an empire out of boredom

I think she truly did hate it

[tall echo]

Ballas could be greed considering he wanted margulis for himself

[frail harness]

Besides no other sin fits Nitohk better so I think wrath is just kinda the defacto pick anyway

[mystic lynx]

Nitokh is half naked and Roathe said that her madness is seductive
i think this one is pretty easy

[tall echo]

No

[stray herald]

how would u justify that part then

[tall echo]

??

[frail harness]

I argued Ballas as pride because everything he says is holier-than-thou, he looks down on and uses everyone, Margulis loving the tenno more than him drove him mad. I cant think of someone more deserving of the label "Pride"

[frail harness]

Yeah but eliciting Lust and symbolising it are two very different things

[restive river]

||is it just me or does Rebb want Roathe and Lotus to end up together- Roathe has a line about getting her attention and Rebb literally showed the romance scene with Roathe but with the Lotus model on her frame||

[frail harness]

I think rebb just likes roathe and wants to self-insert with him lol I dont think its that deep