lore-discussion

[opaque zenith]

Fine? Just Fine?!? Not absolutely perfect? believe or not, glassing

[pale cedar]

We just know they survived getting stabbed

Orokin have a habit of getting killed but not dying

[hexed cape]

It’s a joke bro they almost killed the ship

[sweet wadi]

They do it for fun sometimes, probably

[pale cedar]

Especially on Halloween if the story is true

[opaque zenith]

Yeah I get it, just keeping the joke cause any questioning against the Orokin results in either glassing or jade light normally

[hexed cape]

Best profile

[hexed cape]

Got it

[sweet wadi]

Or being thrown at a helminth

“Hey Ballas, this guy looked at me without total adoration. Put him in your funny talking monster chair!”

[hexed cape]

I await this demon

[opaque zenith]

I'd say being chosen as yuvan too, but that's supposed to be an "honor"

[sweet wadi]

Yeah, Yareli was a yuvan who ‘disrespected’ Ballas, according to her prime blurb.

[fast dew]

Mhm. Its flattering but what's thr worth of flattery when id die a hour later with no memory of it.

[sweet wadi]

It’s not about what you get, it’s about the honor of giving an Orokin something they want.

Which, from their twisted viewpoint, is an honor. Roathe makes it clear how dull everything became. To orokin, novelty was everything. Being chosen as a yuvan meant you were something the Orokin didn’t yet have.

[strange turtle]

Granum genuinely thinks he can make use of Ordis as Ordan and give him a body, and we know the Corpus have cephalons, so probably no

[manic rover]

The message refers to the operator BUT ROATHE TELLS US TO VISIT LA CATHEDRALE

That's not how it works.

[opaque zenith]

K, they could have typed "Ask your couterpart to come visit-(...)" instead. Would make more sense

[silk atlas]

Have you not heard any religious priest or nun refer to anyone not of the coven as "child" before? Like how they'll call each other "brothers" and "sisters", and the main head the "father" or "mother"

OH wait I'm blind

That is just mentioning Operator directly lol

[vestal quartz]

Still trying Gotva Prime with Primary Debilitate and it's ok? Still can't wrap my head around it with Gas being a hit or miss

Lack of Hammer Shot also affects

[fast dew]

This is also Roathe, who thinks that is all to be bull

[kindred plume]

Hi guys. I'm still trying to understand the lore with the Old Peace. And I have a question...
What happened with Margulis eyes, by the end of the quest? Why was she injured? Was that the original Margulis (because if I'm not mistaken, Natah came in a part of the lore to like "copy" Margulis...?)?

[fast dew]

We blinded her. One of the tenno

[kindred plume]

During that attack when controlling Uriel? Or in another event? I've heard people saying she was injured because of the void powers

[silk atlas]

When she went to calm the Tenno on the Zariman

[kindred plume]

Ah right, when the Tenno got their void powers

Thank you, I'll really need to study the lore

[woven coyote]

Think it was first mentioned in the blood scrawls during chains of harrow

[opaque zenith]

Technically, the tenno had their powers for a while at this point, was still uncontrolable and being used by traumatized children who had to survive their own parentes trying to kill them though

[pale cedar]

TSD mentions she was blinded

[hollow siren]

"You'd protect them still, after what they did to you, Margulis?"
"Love looks not with the eyes, but with the mind"

[swift gyro]

Guyst, who could be considered ´´good´´ in the warframe lore? or everyone is either selfish and egoist?

[hollow siren]

Ticker and Otak and Bird 3 are the only morally good characters trust

[silk atlas]

The Tenno, they factions they work with.

[swift gyro]

then only a few...thats creep.

[hollow siren]

Even then some of those are questionable

even the Tenno are

[silk atlas]

We've got bigger problems rn, lets be frank

And it's not like humans are just always morally upstanding all the time

[swift gyro]

tennos must did something terrible at some point, i dont think they would be completely good. also, orokins are the most terrible type of persons ever?

[silk atlas]

To the Orokin comment... Yeah we've known this since forever?
As for the Tenno, can't really think of anything incredibly screwy they did off the top of my head. And "completely good" isn't really a healthy mindset, especially since they're far better than anyone else with major control of the system right now

[hollow siren]

Trying to reduce things to simply "good" and "evil" isn't a great mindset to have either, both when viewing game lore and in general

[pale cedar]

We destroyed flowers does that count?

[silk atlas]

We were tricked so doesn't count

[obtuse vine]

the old peace implied that the executors were split between those who wanted war with the sentients and those who wanted peace. so maybe Its possible that some aren't too bad?

[silk atlas]

Roathe mentions that the Executors were irredeemable and that Ballas was hardly the tip of the iceberg of how awful they could be. We have no clue how much they actually believed in it either

[hollow siren]

Besides, even if 3 of them actually wanted the treaty to last, they were still running an interplanetary tyrranical empire

[brave viper]

why hasn't wally claimed kalymos? He loves to taunt Entrati with Loid and also taunt Loid, so why has he never claimed Kalymos

[hollow siren]

same reason the Cavia aren't claimed I suppose

Kalymos is far from a normal Kavat regardless

[umbral merlin]

not wanting the war to restart doesnt automatically mean they are good people, it could simply be pragmatism

[obtuse vine]

fair point

[brave viper]

But unlike the cavia, kalymos isn't permanently guarded, if anything he was guarded by Albrecht which the indifference seems to have claimed so it seems odd that Kalymos was somehow spared or escaped

It also seems odd that he's never taken the form of Kalymos, perhaps Kalymos really is just a normal trusting Kavat and Wally isn't purely malignant so he doesn't harm Kalymos

[obtuse vine]

explain what you mean by "claimed"

[brave viper]

I don't know, possessed? Idek if that's the case for albrecht but it seems like the indifference got to him

[obtuse vine]

he's definitely marked for sure. but atleast for now it seems like he managed to escape its grasp

[strange plinth]

he's not taken the form of an animal before, just people and The Wall
might be something to do with that divide

[obtuse vine]

maybe kalymos is just too slippery for wally to mark

[brave viper]

If Wally is truly indifferent perhaps he just wants to punish Humanity for what they've done to him and doesn't feel the compulsion to be cruel just to be cruel (but I mean, he does seem pretty sadistic at times)

[obtuse vine]

If he was truly indifferent he wouldnt care enough to want revenge

[strange plinth]

wally isn't indifferent, he makes others indifferent

[brave viper]

actually yeah this makes alot of sense

[obtuse vine]

its like he siphons other people's emotions to fuel himself

[strange plinth]

wally is angry that his finger was taken, studied, and used without his permission, he wants it back
he tried to take over duviri because we took höllvania from him

[strange turtle]

Also like, not wanting a race war doesn’t magically mean they’re not evil in other ways

The societally normalised torture and abuse, for instance

[umbral merlin]

exactly

[covert pebble]

Didn’t Loid have a nose ring?

Or am I tripping?

[pale cedar]

He did

DE keep messing with the model

[covert pebble]

Did they remove it?

I just got his msg after completing Lotus Eaters, and I didn’t see it

Isn’t it supposed to be chunky and shaped like Rell’s tuning fork?

[pale cedar]

Sometimes he has it sometimes he doesn’t

[hollow siren]

He had it before launch, then it was removed at Whispers launch, but still some things have Loid with the ring still

[pale cedar]

I think DE just forget cuz it’s such a small thing

[quick wadi]

Maybe he just didn't want to wear it that day

[pale cedar]

Orokin tech
He just takes it off

He has it in the Old Peace iirc

[nova jackal]

Not really a lore question, and perhaps a little rediculous to ask, but given how....aggressive the Hex members speak to you, why is it that the New Years kiss seems like the first one? Had to ask to get it out of my head ;p

[covert pebble]

I’m asking about a nose ring, I think your question may be a bit more valid, lol

[pale cedar]

Can you explain this a bit more?

[nova jackal]

I'm just curious that after what will be technically a year listening to Lettie ask me....well...what she asks (don't want to spoil anything) that a year later we have some awkward first kiss...

[pale cedar]

1999 is a time loop

[nova jackal]

Think of it like....50 Shades of Grey, and they don't kiss until the movie is basically over.

after all they go through.

[quick wadi]

I think its more just a matter of that being a more interesting cutscene reward to portray

[nova jackal]

the time loop is optional isn't it? It only loops if you forget the Hex?

[pale cedar]

Nah

Loop still loops

[nova jackal]

Fair enough, @quick wadi thats a good enough answer for me, I just needed to ask ;p

[pale cedar]

That’s why the Calendar still changes

[hollow siren]

No, the Loop was even already happening before the quest, hence Drifter talking about how Wally has started to be able to "Change things"

"Here is the crack. With each cycle, more and more seeps into her."

[pale cedar]

The optional bit is them forgetting

[nova jackal]

Got it. Thank you for that @nick @pale cedar !

[white goblet]

so is it confirmed that we revive because of adis? or...?

i understand the oro stuff exists, but it could be that oro helps us not die, and adis helps us revive

[hollow siren]

Oro has been consigned to "non-canon until directly stated otherwise" status

[white goblet]

i see... so adis is why we revive? thats cool af

[strange turtle]

No

He revived us in that instance, but its not a blanket explanation for all cases

[thick yacht]

Adis betrayed us and then saved us

[restive river]

He didnt betray us?

[hollow siren]

Adis and us were betrayed, and Adis retaliated

[thick yacht]

He wanted to kill Margulis

[hollow siren]

Yes, because to him it seemed like she used us to activate the World-Seeders

[restive river]

He wasn’t betraying us, he was reacting poorly
Because he’s a child
And we then reacted poorly
Because we’re a child

[thick yacht]

And on top of this the supposedly wise and mighty Orokin put the future of the Empire in the hands of said children they were responsible for because the other creations they were responsible for thought it prudent to rebel

[restive river]

I mean they were at a time of peace

The dax didn’t like being lied to and thus a rebellion occurred

The Orokin then proceeded to outsmart and use everyone involved

It was going well til the war started back up and then the rail was gone and that was that

The Orokin do just have a history of make (or in the infested’s case, alter) thing and then thing turns on them lol

[hollow siren]

"General, I know we are desperate, but these are no Dax soldiers. They're golems, possessed by Devil minds." - Ballas

[hollow siren]

||well Nitokh seems to have started it||

[restive river]

The tenno are also much more powerful than the Dax and the Orokin wanted to use that against the sentients and it worked

[restive river]

||they still promised them land and then boom peace time||

[cunning tapir]

I mean, when you've been tricked into helping destroy the very thing that keeps you from being integrated to a hivemind that wants to continue a war you want to prevent, of course you'd be lashing out at the person you feel responsible. And Margulis Said the codes were for a destruct sequence for the world-seeders. For all Adis knew, Margulis did lie.

[thick yacht]

And then it backfired and the Empire fell

[restive river]

Ballas’ fault

[thick yacht]

Roathe was the last chance to save the Empire

[restive river]

Was he?

[thick yacht]

If his coup had went through

[restive river]

I doubt that lol

[cunning tapir]

I thought he was planning the opposite.

[hollow siren]

Nitokh wanted to overtake the empire yeah

[thick yacht]

He was going to kill the executors and emperors and seize control of the Empire

[restive river]

He did think things could have gone better if he lead things but 1. Nitokh and 2. Bro is still an Orokin

[thick yacht]

Being an Orokin doesn’t inherently make you a bad person

[restive river]

Like you can have a whole convo with him about this, I really doubt he would have been much better in the long run

[restive river]

I mean
It kinda does, they literally kill people for immortality

[fast dew]

It kinda does

[restive river]

They aren’t a race but a class, they’re billionaires with the best tech and magic goo that makes you immortal by killing the mind of the body you take

[hollow siren]

Not being a bad person will get you killed or kicked out of Orokin society

[cunning tapir]

KIM Spoilers: ||A redeemed Orokin is possible depending on how you do with Roathe's KIM.||

[fast dew]

||Roathe didn't like continuity not because he felt bad for the children he killed, he didn't like it bcs he wants to feel the threat of actual death||

[restive river]

I mean
The Entrati Family (excluding Albrecht)

[cunning tapir]

true

[restive river]

They suck but we help them to be better

[fast dew]

Ehh i wouldnt be too quick to say that

[restive river]

I said better, not perfectly good lol

[cunning tapir]

And Kaelli does want to help fight against Narmer.

[fast dew]

They still tried to kill each other, constantly

[thick yacht]

It is of my opinion the Empire did not necessarily need to be struck down so mercilessly as it was

[silk atlas]

If you don't consider body-snatching random civilians evil, sure. Roathe admits anyone that's not the Executors could probably be saved.

[thick yacht]

Look at what replaced it, the Barbarism

[restive river]

They’re better than they were, which isn’t a lot but it’s quite literally better than how they were before

[fast dew]

Ehhh. This shit was still around during the orokin empire, if not worse.

[restive river]

Nah it did, there’s no good Orokin in the same way there’s no good billionaires
Dismantling it fast was the best thing we could do

Like yes the system is in a state of imbalance but it’s not being lead by a group of people who care not for anyone but themselves with egos bigger than the Origin System and Tau combined

[thick yacht]

It quite literally is

Look at Nef Anyo and Vey Hek

[silk atlas]

Versus "The Orokin came to shoot me because they're bored."

[fast dew]

Ehhhh

Do you... know how bad the orokin are?

[restive river]

The chaos we have is better than the Orokin leading and controlling everything

[hollow siren]

Corpus already existed during the Orokin era, and the modern Grineer are like a smaller scale of what the Orokin empire did

[restive river]

Modern Grineer are even lead by Orokin lmao

[thick yacht]

We spend days on Venus helping people in debt slavery because Nef Anyo runs debt internment camps across the planet to fuel his agenda

And when Ballas came for him, he ran away

[hollow siren]

yeah, Corpus was a thing in the Orokin era too

they're not something that popped up after the Collapse

[restive river]

The Orokin were like
A billion times worse

[silk atlas]

And people in some random colony wished for death by an asteroid because the Orokin treated them that awfully.

[fast dew]

It was the orokin standard to kidnap and murder children, and use their bodies as flesh puppets.

It was specifically children too

[restive river]

Like yes their society did have good aspects, art, science, discovery
But it was also lead by literally the worst humanity had to offer

I compare them to billionaire for a reason

[pale cedar]

I might redeem the Orokin with a Redeemer Prime bullet to the face

[restive river]

Literally all Orokin are murders by default, societal norm or not that’s not a good thing
They aren’t even doing it for a good thing

[thick yacht]

“Lust was my sin. But greed is the blight that weakens our steel. These industrialists have gorged on the harvest of our long war. Their mind drones; Their mechanizations, toil in foundries remote. For what purpose? We must set watch upon them. Baiting our snares with the worms of profit.

Those kneeling at the altar of commerce will be returned... to the Void.”

• Executor Ballas

[silk atlas]

The only reason the stuff we see seems that bad is because we're there to witness it ourselves.

Roathe flat out calls out this thinking as naive in the context of how much of a kiddie ride Ballas was in terms of how awful the Orokin is.

[thick yacht]

Even Ballas did not like them

[restive river]

They could use adults but it did seem they preferred children
Which is gross and weird and I hate them!

[hollow siren]

Yeah. That's not really helping your point

[fast dew]

Ballas also gave a warframe to the head of the corpus, Parvos.

[silk atlas]

Roathe says in no uncertain terms that Ballas was not that bad comapred to the rest of The Seven.

Which should tell you just how awful the rest were.

[pale cedar]

The only thing I respect Ballas for doing was plotting to kill the Orokin

[restive river]

Only thing I respect him for is dying

[hollow siren]

tbf it's likely many if not most of the Executors were

[fast dew]

EXACTLY. Specifically how ballas describes yareli prime's kid. It was so gross.

[pale cedar]

I’d respect him for dying if his fate wasn’t so kind

[thick yacht]

The evil aspect of continuity could easily be resolved by not using children and simply transferring into purpose-made clone bodies for the Orokin

[restive river]

He deserved worse
I’m just glad mom got to do it

[thick yacht]

Just like that a key evil aspect of the Empire is wiped away

[hollow siren]

Which they did not do, so how is it relevant

[restive river]

Ok but they didn’t do that.

[fast dew]

They could.

They didnt want to. They wanted children.

Reminds me of the idea of blood diamonds

[silk atlas]

Of course they could

But they didn't because they're evil and morally bankrupt

[restive river]

“Well the murderer wouldn’t have been evil if they didnt kill anyone”

But they did
So they are

[fast dew]

"I want my diamond ring to have its main stone to have been minded by slave children over lab grown diamonds !!"

[pale cedar]

Do we even know if they only picked children?

[fast dew]

It wssnt exclusively children, we can assume, but if was only shown to be done on them

[restive river]

They def didnt only pick children but children were unfortunately the popular choice

I hate talking about this so much

[thick yacht]

And again, for all of the Orokin’s known decadence, cruelty in abundance, and evil, they at least contributed to the development of mankind. The corpus and grineer are like squatter descendants living in the ruined mansion of their ancestors. They don’t create, they just find scraps and reverse-engineer it.

It is really quite similar to the Imperium of Man from Warhammer40k, a permanent stagnation/decline

[fast dew]

Ehh

That doesn't make the orokin better

[pale cedar]

This is how you know you’re a true Tenno all the space Trauma

[silk atlas]

They're just a different kind of bad

[restive river]

Literally nobody is saying the Grineer and Corpus are better
Nor does that make the Orokin better by them being terrible

Orokin society had good qualities, yes, but the Orokin themselves were not one of them
Those are two different things.

[silk atlas]

"Ah yeah the constant abusers and corrupt politicians were cool because we got some big cool toys that only they use for themselves the new guys are so much worse"

[pale cedar]

Even Son admits the Orokin’s time for death had come

[fast dew]

Son and Roathe would get along on that

[hollow siren]

I still wonder who Son's betroathed was, we never got much info on them

[pale cedar]

All Roathe has to do is go upstairs

[silk atlas]

Also, again, Atlas Leverian with the people who wanted to die because they couldn't stand living under Orokin rule.

[thick yacht]

I don’t believe all of the Orokin were beyond redemption personally

Some, definitely, Nihil and Ballas being first among those who needed to go

[fast dew]

||Also uh. Reckon DE might be setting up for Loid getting proto'd? Run with me here. Loid going upstairs, getting infested and needing to helminth himself in order to survive.||

[hollow siren]

And we're not saying none of them were. This is about the empire at large

[strange turtle]

The Corpus and Grineer are the lesser evil

Not because they’re so much better or anything. But because the Orokin were just that bad, and the two factions we have now are much more manageable.

There’s an actual chance to stand against them and eventually make a change one day

[hollow siren]

He does have near-identical clothing to Limbo Prime

[fast dew]

Nihil may be the least worst option there

[restive river]

I don’t think that’s whats being argued
I literally mentioned the Entrati family
Roathe is. Right there, that’s his whole thing

99% of Orokin, awful
1% of Orokin, redeemable
(Gross exaggeration of percentages ofc)

[fast dew]

He wasnt even a executor (anymore, they retconned it)

[restive river]

Bro is actually just a normal serial killer lol

[hollow siren]

well Glassing was quite bad

[fast dew]

Idek why they retconned it

[thick yacht]

Tis only a matter of time until either faction becomes unmanageable

[strange turtle]

These were people that had torture as an ordinary and treasured memory, like a family picnic. There was no time or opportunity to somehow worm our way into their hearts and lead them onto a path of redemption

[fast dew]

It was super explainable

[thick yacht]

Best to decapitate both now I say

Get rid of the queens and the corpus board

[pale cedar]

So we didn’t have to find out who got demoted

[hollow siren]

The regular missions we do are to prevent that from happening

[silk atlas]

The Tenno's whole shtick is making sure they stay managable since they don't have the numbers to take them down outright.

[fast dew]

right. And wouldn't Limbo's abilities fit right into what happened to Loid?

[thick yacht]

We can’t outlast them in a permanent battle of attrition

There are too few of us and too many of them

[hollow siren]

We have for 13 years

[fast dew]

Yes we absolutely can

[restive river]

The Grineer and Corpus outnumber the Orokin even
Only reason we killed most of them was cause it was planned, during a celebration, when their guard was down.
We aren’t getting that with the Corpus or Grineer.

[fast dew]

We have been. For centuries.

[hollow siren]

The point is that we can outlast them, we just can't eradicate them both at once

[pale cedar]

Loid miscalculated?

[quick wadi]

Is there any group of orokin who did anything remotely benevolent? Like at most we know of individuals who were less on board

[hollow siren]

getting rid of just one would lead to a horrid power vacuum

[quick wadi]

And usually in hindsight

[fast dew]

The entrati family as a whole

[quick wadi]

I should say besides them

[restive river]

They’re all basically billionaires so
But the closest would be the Entratis

[fast dew]

They were giga weird and seperate from the other orokin, which they did purposefully so

[restive river]

Albrecht was especially weird iirc

[fast dew]

Mhm

[restive river]

And that was before he fell into the void lol

[fast dew]

Both sides seem to have been weird tbh

[strange turtle]

Also: in the aftermath of a war with the sentients in which much of their advanced offensive/defensive technology had been coopted or decomissioned

[thick yacht]

We haven’t been fighting them for centuries, we’ve been fighting them for years at best, and likely a few because there’s nothing indicating Operator wouldn’t age as soon as they left the Long Dream, and if TSD was ten years ago in canon Operator would be close to mid-20s canonically by now

[pale cedar]

Albrecht’s wife did something benevolent she died

[hollow siren]

And they managed to marry into the other super weird family (Vorten)

[restive river]

Yup!
It was literally a now or never kinda move

[thick yacht]

I don’t know how much time has passed since we awoke but it can’t have been longer than a few years by this point

[restive river]

If we didn’t kill the empire then who knows when we could have, or anyone could have

[fast dew]

Which makes me think she wasnt a orokin. Why would an orokin die?

[restive river]

About a thousand years between us going to sleep after slaughtering the empire and waking up at the start of the game

[fast dew]

Why would an orokin be "given" to another?

[restive river]

As for how long its been like
In game, harder to say

[strange turtle]

Depends, could have been good while pre-TSD, those few years only comes in to play after it

[thick yacht]

I mean the time between the awakening and 1999/Old Peace

[restive river]

If the anniversaries are canon it’s been over a decade since the first tenno awoke

[fast dew]

Ever noticed thats the last name seen in Gyre's deluxe skin descriptions :)

[hollow siren]

I did the second we got the name reveal, yeah

[restive river]

Yeah if anniversaries are canon over a decade
In terms of quests, probably not as long

[strange turtle]

11,000+

[thick yacht]

?

[strange turtle]

Wait no I misread that

[hollow siren]

They mean the quests, not the in-game year 1999

[fast dew]

1999 technically happened 11,000~ years before current day

[restive river]

Warframe player moment

[strange turtle]

He’s getting 22 descendia runs for that

[restive river]

We are all guilty

[fast dew]

Me misreading leather as theatre

[thick yacht]

Also, going back to the Grineer and Corpus vs Tenno, I am pretty sure it says explicitly somewhere that many tenno have fallen due to underestimating Grineer firepower

That cannot bode well for our already small numbers

[restive river]

Anyone it’s been anywhere between, what a few years or a decade since awakening?
It depends

[strange turtle]

Warframes*

[restive river]

Warframes can die
The tenno keep going

[hollow siren]

That exact quote is from Oldframe when "Tenno" and "Warframe" were synonymous terms

[fast dew]

Tenno are like roaches. Can't die until you don't want them to.

[restive river]

Oh so thats why Rell went, I wanted him to stay ):

[thick yacht]

And if the ARG is true, there is a way to kill the warframe and operator both, if you trap them in their frame

[pale cedar]

Grineer thinking killing the frame kills the Tenno

Well sort of

A frame dying ain’t killing an Operator

[hollow siren]

Yes, that's what the Ascaris Vor put on us was trying to do. Vor experimenting with Orokin tech is kinda why we took him out first of all

[fast dew]

Same, but i do think he needed to rest over my selfish desire to have a friend

[restive river]

A way that our enemies don’t even know about?

[restive river]

They mean the radiation

[thick yacht]

They could well figure it out

[restive river]

Same, he deserved it

[strange turtle]

Basically
1999 Hollvania
10,000 years shaped by it according to Albrecht
Potential ???? Amount of time
Night of the Naga Drums/Naptime
1000~ years according to Varzia
Varzia’s awakening, unknown point between Awakening and New War

[thick yacht]

Grineer are nothing if not persistent

[restive river]

Not really???
It was, as far as we know a one time anomaly in another system entirely
If it comes up again, which it likely will, it won’t be used by the goobers who can’t even get to Tau.

[pale cedar]

Why do that when you can just strap C4 to to the Frame them then send it through the transference stream straight to the Operator

[thick yacht]

I shit on the Grineer but it is a grave thing to underestimate them as well

They almost had figured out how to get rid of clone rot

[hollow siren]

which we stopped

[strange turtle]

It’s also a grave thing to overestimate them

[pale cedar]

They did figure it out

[strange turtle]

A very different field of science, with a lot more experience and actual foundation, evidence and research to go off of

[thick yacht]

Regor’s Tubemen

[pale cedar]

We just never let them get it

[strange turtle]

The Grineer do have some very smart scientists, still wouldn’t expect one of them to revolutionise, idk shield tech, in some new way that we need to dedicate an Operation to stopping them from rolling out en mass, for example

[thick yacht]

My point is that if they are willing to actually invest time and resources into something they can probably figure it out

[restive river]

“what if our enemy knew this highly specific thing that they have no way of knowing about or even getting to”

It’s not impossible but so unlikely that I don’t see it happening, you’re overestimating them.

[thick yacht]

The grineer usually don’t put that much effort in against us

[hollow siren]

They literally do

[pale cedar]

Why would Grineer need to innovate when Corpus sell to the highest bidder?

[thick yacht]

That’s giving funding to the opposition

[restive river]

Didn’t we kill the smartest one they had

[thick yacht]

And also reduces self reliance

[hollow siren]

yeah, they do that canonically

Corpus and Grineer trade

[pale cedar]

Corpus like money

[hollow siren]

This isn't a hypothetical

[restive river]

The Corpus don’t care who you are if you have money

[hollow siren]

Tyl Regor, yes

[restive river]

Wally could buy them out if he wanted to like
They don’t care so long as money

[strange turtle]

Icl I forgot about that

But if there’s some, there must also be lesser (or not relevant rn so DE can pull them out of a hat later) ones, and an established way to actually cultivate them

[hollow siren]

they do worship Void so they might even dig him

[restive river]

We know that some Corpus have standards but that’s a rarity it seems

[pale cedar]

I bet Corpus would sell to us too if we payed money

[restive river]

Yeah, but he could probably CE up some money or something and boom he’s got a cult

[thick yacht]

Well we already buy from Darvo

He’s technically corpus

[hollow siren]

Darvo is a Corpus cast-out pretty much

[restive river]

The Solaris are corpus

[hollow siren]

his dad kinda excommunicated him

[restive river]

Perrin Sequence is corpus

[strange turtle]

IIRC theres an old line referencing Corpus spam in the inbox (promo stuff before they stopped that)

[pale cedar]

Think Grineer would ever trade with us?

[thick yacht]

I can’t speak for any of you but Perrin has assassins after me so they wouldn’t be selling anything at all to me

[restive river]

We have allies from almost every enemy faction lol

[lilac aspen]

Even the infested
Helminth the goated

[restive river]

Oh they hunt me too but they still can be our allies and are corpus

[strange plinth]

you can go buy a tenet melee from glast rn

[strange turtle]

Also we do have enough access to Corpus stuff to continue to play against Anyo in the Index

[pale cedar]

Helminth trades with us all the time

[restive river]

Even the void with the Holdfasts, technically
It’s a bit more of a stretch since we can’t have a murmur ally

[thick yacht]

We don’t have Sentient allies

[lilac aspen]

The void with Duviri and Holdfast
Though they aren’t Murmur related
Just VOID related

[strange turtle]

~~I mean, maybe an Envoy could end up retaining a bit of their individuality ~~

[strange plinth]

the lotus:

[restive river]

Ahem.
Adis
Lotus
And somewhat, Hunhow.

[restive river]

ENVOY
FROM SOULFRAME?!?

[lilac aspen]

Hunhow, Adis and Lotus but uh
One’s dead, one’s under the sea, and the last one tells me how to leave no one alive

[strange turtle]

Fragmented Envoy, Isleweaver boss

[restive river]

Itzam was an ally too
But ofc Adis and all those sentients are long gone now
But we still got Lotus
We still got grandpa
And uncle is fighting

[pale cedar]

Saying the game has no Sentient allies is crazy when a Sentient is the second most important character in the game after Operator

[restive river]

Lmao
I do kinda doubt one could have individuality personally since, it’s all him
But if they did that I’d really hope that they would explain it well as to how we have a Murmur ally that can even be trusted

[strange turtle]

No those ones are us

[thick yacht]

I forgot Natah was a sentient for a while

[restive river]

Oh you mean cause
The heralds
I mean maybe!

[restive river]

Lotus still is a sentient, that never stopped being a thing-

[pale cedar]

Still is

[strange turtle]

“No sentient allies”
The queerplatonic joyfriend in question:

[thick yacht]

I’m aware that’s why I choose her name as Natah

[restive river]

Just cause you don’t pick Natah to lead the other personalities doesn’t mean her being a sentient gets wiped from her body

[thick yacht]

Acceptance of who she is

[thick yacht]

I literally DID choose Natah

[restive river]

I’m saying hypothetically, not you :p

[restive river]

She already knows what she is lol

[thick yacht]

When Teshin called her Natah she said “don’t call me that”

[restive river]

Natah is who she was
Margulis is who she was forced to be
Lotus is the closest thing to an actual identity she forged

Natah’s both her deadname and one of her 3 personalities

[strange turtle]

The choice is about whose voice and line of thought will lead their little choir in the coming future

[lilac aspen]

The lady with three faces

[strange turtle]

Margulis and compassion, Natah and strength, or Lotus, both in equal measure

[restive river]

Three are the principles,
three the weaving ways.

Cool water flows,
the moon behind a cloud;
To the receptive mind
All things come in time.

Sun at mid-heaven,
Sovereign above all;
Mind in firm action
Commits without reflecting.

Between sun and moon
Unfolds a winding path;
Not by one Way alone
Is Mastery achieved.

[strange turtle]

"I… I'm not sure. There are… voices. I am not… one."

"I know. But maybe you could choose one voice… to lead the others? It's your choice."

• "The times ahead will need decisiveness. Power. I shall be Natah."

• "I see violence and suffering in our future. We will need compassion and strength in equal measure… I am the Lotus."

• "Narmer has divided the world, leaving a deep wound. We need healing. I am Margulis."

Wait wtf I actually remembered the quote

[restive river]

Narmer didn’t even divide that much smh
What have they even been doing

[strange turtle]

They’re getting weapons from fomorians to put on the Narmer Orb, the World-Divider

[restive river]

One day we’ll get that orb

[turbid vigil]

lyon literally has rells donda

[restive river]

Yeah

||They lied about there being no connection ig
Iirc he mentions him during the acquisition of the strikes too||

[strange plinth]

||only for lorak i believe, unsure tho||

[robust sleet]

||did valdur know about the betrayal?||

[strange turtle]

Yeah

They say this in the quest

[dark compass]

The first 3 lines are direct quotes

[strange turtle]

Basically ||it wasn’t a lie, technically. There isn’t a specific connection, but lets just say what Rell did with Harrow had some very, special and wide-reaching effects||

[robust sleet]

ok i thought so

[turbid vigil]

"dont come to school tomorrow"

[swift sentinel]

Harrow Helminth would remember all that Void exposure I guess

[marsh scroll]

That one just stays forever within ne poor adis

[turbid vigil]

||or entrati gave rells donda to lyon and said "you should keep this near you"||

[hollow siren]

Palladino has Rell's Donda

[turbid vigil]

he couldve stolen it from the past

who knows what entrati is doing rn

[potent patrol]

anyways XD lol thank u for the hashtag im blind couldnt see it...BUT yeah like i said about the indifference

[iron tiger]

So it turns out we have confirmation that the 7 Emperors and the executors are seperate

From Kim dialogue

[pale cedar]

Only on paper

Emperors weren’t really running the empire

[iron tiger]

It would certainly appear that way it seems it was an emperor-shogun type situation

The congress of executors had military control

Signed treaties and declared war

I would guess that the 7 emperors were like a Supreme Court but they were dicasts serving as both judge and jurors

And were the primary source of the legems

Or constitution

But from there the executors extrapolated everything else

[fast dew]

We also have Rell's Donda

Its probably not Rell's, Lyon's I mean, as it does seem to be something that was produced often enough

I'm curious as to how Albrecht even knows of it

[pale cedar]

All knowing PC spying on us duh

[unique talon]

Orokin

Monsters

[fast dew]

Yeah but that pc has been writing since Albrecht left 😭 maybe he had access to the copy remotely?

[unique talon]

All of them

[fast dew]

Just now?

You get used to it.

[unique talon]

I knew it this whole time

Old peace = Trojan horse

How I would love using Uriel to burn balla's a$$

WHY DID I LEAVE HIM ALIVE

I would burn his soul and burn the entire orokin kind down, if I had to spend another minute among those animals

[sick nebula]

Isn't it two emperors?

Also, my understanding is that the Emperors were nominally in charge but didn't actually do anything most of the time.

||Roathe mentions them actually getting off their thrones during the Old War part 1||

[strange plinth]

number of emperors is never stated, tmk
not that i'm finding at least
more than one, but seven is a safe assumption imo. one executor for each emperor

[unique talon]

Why reality and the truth hurts us so much?

[deft knot]

do we have all thequotes for the teknolyst artifacts yet? or we still waiting for folks to complie em

[dire mountain]

Theoretically yes in practice no

[humble sierra]

Is there word on what these challenges are?

Ah, it's an evolving chest armor

[lunar pilot]

ok genuine question whats orixa lore

[fast dew]

Are these... orokin military ranks?

Grand... is, its kinda a stretch

[strange turtle]

From the colouring and source I think it might be the Tau ones specifically

[fast dew]

Mhm.

[strange turtle]

Very similar to the one for Roathe’s unit and Valdur’s banner thing

[fast dew]

Well, realistically the orokin never really needed a military till then

[winter geode]

do we know how much weight roathes theory about the man in the wall holds? im inclined to agree with the dialogue options suggesting that that seems like a reduction of something far more complicated

[strange plinth]

oraxia.. doesn't have much. she was albrecht's pet and/or guardian on scholar's landing
she was apparently supposed to help us when we got to scholar's landing, if the indifference is to be believed
but she fights us during isleweaver because the indifference likely copied albrecht to tell her to kill us instead

[winter geode]

im going to take the reaction to mean that i should just assume roathes telling the truth

[strange plinth]

about CE? its a fairly common theory tbh
the bit that gets weird is how powerful he is, but it lines up fairly well otherwise. albrecht breaking into the void full of fear and self-doubt, creating a being that feeds on similar stuff

[lean garden]

Whatever he said Ive been sayin

[strange turtle]

It’s similar to established in-universe and out of universe theories, but it’s also important to keep in mind Roathe’s biases and personal views that very blatantly show up

[lean garden]

so Id say its heavy af

[silk atlas]

The "He's not a god" thing or what? No but also it's a good idea to temper your expectations on what Wally actually is because some people take it way too far when they think of him as a "god"

[fast dew]

Tbf Roathe likely read the operator report about it

He shouldn't know about the man in the wall at all, Albrecht told noone

[winter geode]

thats a large part of why i didnt believe him

also the finger thing feels like it was just a seperate piece of information that he felt like he had to work in to his theory that doesnt fit super cohesively

and why does wally behave so differently to everything else thats been conceptually embodied like duviri and the zariman stuff if thats the case

[silk atlas]

What is "different" here specifically?

[lean garden]

was it not explained in that same conversation?

why it seems so "big" compared to the other CEs

because we've stuck it in a feedback loop that makes it stronger only because we think it so

[winter geode]

we took a copy of kullervo out of duviri and that didnt make duviri start leaking into our world, dominus thrax didnt start decapitating us in the origin system

[fast dew]

.. well

Kullervo isnt from duviri. Not really.

And duviri is real, but as a book

[winter geode]

we take resources from duviri we take weapons from duviri we get cool weapon upgrades from duviri

weve crossed the wires plenty

[fast dew]

I mean

That's it then.

Thats what's leaked into this world

Duviri is a book, it is primarily fictional. The golden maws are fictional, yeah?

[winter geode]

its not leaking though its a controlled transfer

[fast dew]

Well, Albrecht had the head of one in his netracells.

[lean garden]

thats the thing isnt it?

what makes that different from taking wally's fingers?

[silk atlas]

It leaks through via Zariman, boom lol

[lean garden]

well for starters, wally's fingers duplicated or not are being used for power

[fast dew]

Id get a screenie but i am unfortunately am in the middle of moving

[lean garden]

having a spooky gun that eats essences is different from plugging your phone charger into a realm of nigh infinite energy

[winter geode]

why is the finger so many orders of magnitude higher than duviri even before we started feeding it with our fear and dread

[lean garden]

because its already been feeding this whole time

[strange plinth]

has been since albrecht broke in, technically

[winter geode]

also iirc wally only got his finger chopped off because he was entering our dimension already and the portal closed on his hand

[lean garden]

and?

[winter geode]

so hes capable of entering our dimension regardless

[lean garden]

... through the opened hole to the void??

[fast dew]

Ehhh

[winter geode]

unless albrecht made a wally sized portal

[fast dew]

... he did. Wally appeared first as Albrecht

[lean garden]

well yea

that's exactly what happened

[fast dew]

The seriglass bell was rather large

[lean garden]

plus like what do you think albrecht had euleria close on wally?

[sharp igloo]

alright i have some questions and statements to do with the deal we made with Wally on the Zariman. So our operator took the deal, which then saved the Zariman children, giving them void powers, but collapsed our operators “other versions” of themselves onto only two. so my question is, since in the Zariman cutscene it shows both the operator AND the drifter shaking hands, does that mean that the Drifter was not the version that didn’t take the deal, but actually was a version of us that DID take the deal, but they just didn’t get the void powers and chose was stuck in the void, later manifesting into the Duviri landscape from the children’s book? so in the War Within quest, when Wally speaks after we choose what to do with the Kuva, he says “Did you forget kiddo? you owe me” is he saying we owe him not just for saving us and giving us void powers, but also for making it so that we were the one out of the two who took the deal that made it out of the zariman, while the other one was essentially the “sacrifice” and had to still get stuck within the void?

sorry it’s long, just love the story and been wondering about that for a bit

ah and then, since Wally made it so that two possibilities exist in the same timeline: one where we escape, and one where we didn’t, and they both exist in one timeline, THAT is the paradox, which fits the title of the quest The Duviri Paradox

[silk atlas]

The Operator thing with Wally with the dying Operators was actually the deaths Operator experienced when trapped in the Zariman, and that was when they shared their powers with Drifter. Drifter took a deal, but Wally did not save Drifter in Drifter's reality.

[strange plinth]

the operator and drifter were given & accepted the deal of <something> for wally saving "all of them"
the difference between them is operator was included in "all of them", as in all of the zariman children
while drifter was excluded, as in all of the other children

[strange plinth]

the paradox is that drifter can't escape without operator's help and operator can't help unless drifter's already out

[pine orchid]

we are the schrodinger’s cat both saved and not saved when we took the deal with wally :o

[sharp igloo]

i saw a comment once about that. “with our deal it’s like we put one cat in, and then after opening the box, we have two cats, one alive and one dead. we escaped the Zariman and we didn’t escape the Zariman. Both were unmanifested realities. both came true instead of only one.”

[strange plinth]

both would come true regardless under eternalism, its just which one we had access to
which is both instead of only one
semantics

[pine orchid]

yup, because that's eternalism
and through void shenanigans both now exist in the same timeline which isn't normally covered by eternalism XD

[strange plinth]

theoretically accessible n all

[pine orchid]

it takes the void and wally to make it practically accessible Xd

[drifting helm]

lavos the alchemist frame, the whole thing of classical alchemy is turning lead into gold and stuff, of course he primed himself cuz hes based

[strange plinth]

mhm

[fast dew]

Mhm.

Its pretty much Euleria's explanation

Child's parents died, Child's parents didnt die. One died, the other didnt. All are both true and false under eternalism.

[sharp igloo]

unrelated, but does anyone know that this spark that’s always orbiting my warframe is? idk if it’s from a specific ephemera or armor piece making it do that but not from what i can tell, and im always seeing it

[strange plinth]

not without an image

[lunar pilot]

okay guys does oxiara have lore

the spider lady

[lean garden]

we need an image lol

[drifting pivot]

Does anybody have the video of us getting shot by albrec with his say lex?

[drifting pivot]

Like the cut scene

[strange plinth]

i responded to you earlier @lunar pilot

[lunar pilot]

so shes neutral

[marble pewter]

It should be on YouTube. Search Hex Quest cutscenes

[drifting pivot]

Ty

[fast dew]

Say lex..?

[winter berry]

There’s a focus school that gives you an energy-free ability cast every… 90 seconds? I belive that is visualized with a spark orbiting you

[iron tiger]

So why did the lotus take the memories from us

[marble pewter]

Is Neci’s soul still alive technically?

[iron tiger]

The ones about the old war was it just because it was traumatic?

[strange plinth]

protect from trauma is the reasoning for most of our memories being lost

[strange plinth]

there seems to be some element of her left, still. wally even acknowledges it with the 'you want this body back? with how chewed up she is?' line

[iron tiger]

Ahh I see, why did the awakening happen at the time that it did?

[strange plinth]

lotus woke us up because vor was trying to take us

[iron tiger]

After playing the teacher quest I’ve come to the realization that the era of history pre-awakening was a very interesting and more chaotic time

[iron tiger]

Ohhh and that happened in general because it was a massive operation

[strange plinth]

not massive. iirc vor was the only one tasked with it

[marble pewter]

damn I forgot that line…but at least she’s alive despite the implications

[iron tiger]

Dang so we were really just meant to be there napping forever?

[iron tiger]

By massive I meant multiple

[strange plinth]

presumably the lotus would've awakened us if the system needed us more than it already did lol

[iron tiger]

Such as a sentient attack

I would imagine that the programming of her head crest wasn’t rewritable and hardcoded

[strange plinth]

probably yea
so tyl regor opening hunhow's tomb would probably be our awakening if vor wasn't involved

[iron tiger]

So Ballas gave her vague instructions and she just extrapolated

[strange plinth]

ehhh
the plan was for natah to lead the tenno against the sentients, sentients lose, tenno turn on the orokin, natah kills the tenno
she already faltered on that last step, hunhow rants about it the whole time he's waking up

[iron tiger]

Ohhhhh wow

So many twists and betrayals in warframes writing I almost forgot who is on who’s side

So Ballas was basically trying to achieve his “Narmer” from the get go

But without sentients or Tenno

I assume Ballas is the reason natah had the idea to turn into margulis

And had a key role in her birth

[strange plinth]

after margulis's execution (arguably earlier based on some roathe chats), ballas wanted the orokin empire to burn
so he plotted to make it happen

[iron tiger]

Why? It is because he was simply less than an emperor? Or was it something more?

[strange plinth]

ballas reprogrammed her to be more like margulis, yes

[silk atlas]

Because he had his arm wrung to kill Margulis since if he voted no he might put a target on his back (also because he's a controlling freakwad)

[analog frost]

Can someone explain the whole deal of the old peace.

Did not the zariman never reached tau system in first place? How is the tenno and orokin there. Is some sort of eternalism alternative timeline/universe where everyone reached tau as espected?

[strange plinth]

real history
zariman never reached tau, but the sentients did
tenno + orokin got there through the solar rail

[strange plinth]

he blamed the empire for her death, regardless of how much control he did or did not have in that situation

[pine orchid]

I've mentioned it before but basically think of it as your plane (the zariman) crashing on the way to tau, you survived, came back, and took the train (solar rails) there instead

[fast dew]

"Oh no I get hurt and lose my position if I let my lover live. Such a hard choice."

Chooses the worst option

"Getting hurt", what a concept for an orokin to worry about.

[silk atlas]

No I mean they'd probably just kill her anyway, either through just ignoring Ballas or by getting someone more agreeable and... help Ballas retire.

[fast dew]

Eh, theres a chance he could've taken Margulis and ran. He didn't. Thats his own fault imo.

I think there was plenty of ways to avoid it

[pine orchid]

definitely sounds like a "Society forced me to vote for her execution, so I will destroy all of society" from Ballas side

[fast dew]

Well, Nitokh seemed to stay a executor even after tau

So clearly they dont particularly care

[runic jungle]

Why is roathe lowkey the chilliest dude in the warframe verse

[analog frost]

If there was a solar rail then why was the zariman constructed in first place. Seems counterintuitive building a massive spaceship when a there is teleport machine already working.

[pine orchid]

Political intrigue, according to Roathe, is like a game to the Orokin
but he also mentions "lines you do not cross" (and that Albrecht crossed all of them apparently), and I wanna know what that entails

[strange plinth]

it wasn't. the sentients were sent to build the rail, the orokin got impatient so they sent the zariman, zariman fails, rail gets completed

[pine orchid]

the rails consisted of a million pylons constructed between the origin system and tau, that takes a lot of time!

[silk atlas]

(Descendia) ||Screwing with memories, specifically his memories||

[fast dew]

... getting screwed by his butler. Thats what

[silk atlas]

Names and memories are the key things respected in Orokin society

[fast dew]

Realistically he was just a lil crazy

[pine orchid]

that makes sense

I havent descended in descendia that much I only got like 5 times so far? since I'm doing it with friends

[sharp igloo]

what does everyone think will come after we travel back to Tau? so far every enemy we’ve encountered has had something to do with the Orokin or had ties to the Orokin. maybe we might encounter actual aliens? or i guess the next huge threat is the Indifference

[lean garden]

My guess is more murmur assaulting the sentients there

[solid dove]

My theory for what comes next in the story:

1. Going to Orb Vallis to confront the Narmor Orb mother to gain knowledge from Pazul about Tau.

2. Fix up the Zariman using various rare materials from all over the system both new and old and travel the Solar Rail to Tau.

3. Something happens during the journey involving indifference leading to intermediate preludes like the New War had

4. TAU

[lean garden]

1,3,4 are sound

2 is highly unlikely

[strange plinth]

zariman's probably not movin

[lean garden]

you don't need the zariman if you have the rail

[solid dove]

Mhm true. Just wanted the Zarimam to get some love imo. Feel like every place got some new stuff lately (besides PoE)

[strange plinth]

toss a duviri island at the plains or something

[solid dove]

On the 2nd point idea could be building a ship that can handle the long travel on a rail (for all we know our ships can only handle the "short" rail travel between planets) and it be a big event like how we repaired the relay.

(I miss the big community wide story events)

[loud oriole]

ehhh i don't think we need to try and tug the Zariman out of the void, that rupture might stick around and then wally has a red carpet laid out for his arrival in full form like when ballas opened a void portal during the new war

[sharp igloo]

ya think Tau will end up having an open world too? or just normal missions

[solid dove]

Maybe a mix. Normal missions that lead into an open world

Though im wanting a underwater open world cause its not sci-fi without one

[sharp igloo]

captain vor will be the final boss

[solid dove]

Honestly could steal his Janus key to power our side of the rail

[swift gyro]

How exactly does the transference works? is like an ´´vr´´, the tenno stays in that capsule and his vision is in the warframe vision?

[strange plinth]

extending the consciouness to a different body
"vr" is somewhat accurate

[swift gyro]

so is basicly just changing the view from the human body to the warframe and changing the control to the warframe body too?

[solid dove]

Think of like animes with full body dive vr.

[hollow trench]

You basically pilot a nuke with arms and legs

Iirc warframes are only limited by the game in terms of abilities but in lore they are able to level cities with a blink of an eye?

[strange plinth]

no

[hollow trench]

What’s the limitation then?

We have the helminth in game and that lets you swap abilities so wouldn’t that have a pretty big implication on what exists for limitation in power?

[strange plinth]

the limitation would probably be that none of them are particularly designed to be able to level a city. the abilities are tied to whatever design is given to the helminth, and while the orokin can be stupid, i don't think they were stupid enough to bake in "can destroy cities" into their sentient weapons
they're foot soldiers more than anything else

[hollow trench]

Nova?

She is like peak nothing is surviving

[strange plinth]

anti-matter on an incredibly small scale

[hazy prism]

She isn't turning matter to anti matter at a 1 to 1 scale, or else any planet or ship she was on would be ANNIHILATED

[swift gyro]

Also, i just saw the marie message about her asking about the wisp (her warframe completed) what usually happends to the persons who are turned into a protoframe? like, they just live their lifes or smth bad happen to them?

[hollow trench]

I talked to Lyon too and he said essentially we are just discovering how lethal Marie is

That leads to my other thought

Wisp is able to conjure a portal to the sun

That alone seems like enough to just erase whatever is in front of her

[strange plinth]

antimatter is oversold too. it explodes, but you still need a bunch to explode anything significant

[stable gyro]

Is this lore that I don't understand

[strange plinth]

dagath room in dojo > listen to the story

[swift gyro]

the most shocking thing i noticed since i played with dagath from the release, i notice dagath is a ´´woman´´ (idk if u can call warframe by gender) like, 1 month ago, never noticed her boobs

[strange plinth]

we've seen the lives of all the protos we know of
regular frames transformed far faster, not much of a life to live after you're converted into a weapon (the madness doesn't help)

[strange plinth]

yea they have genders. used to be people n all

[hazy prism]

Itcs clear unless the energy released from antimatter in warframe is different, Nova is at most converting micrograms of matter

[pine orchid]

that's the most shocking thing, not jade? Xd

[swift gyro]

the proto frames transforms into a weapon after a time?

[tall echo]

They turn into full frames

[strange plinth]

the protos would just become full frames later on, their transformations are just slowed

[swift gyro]

i didnt even read her story, i might see later tho

[pine orchid]

Jade Shadows quest, yeah

[tall echo]

Wait, you again. I wish I was at my pc now so I could type faster...

[swift gyro]

ah ok, i was thinking of that but i though warframes could only be crafted by orokins and ballas. but they turn into the definite version of the warframe? (excluding the primes)

[swift gyro]

yep, i kinda liked knowing more about warframe lore so i starting to be online here more often when a curiosity comes into mind

[tall echo]

Albrecht stole the strains of the protos from ballas

[strange plinth]

its still a helminth injection, they'll fully transform eventually
but they don't become the original frames if that's what you're saying. no bootstraps

[swift gyro]

i mean, i dont consider a proto being fully warframe (what is ´´true´´) so i didnt inclued albrecht bcs of that.

[tall echo]

Orokin is already the plural btw

[swift gyro]

mb.

[tall echo]

They're as fully frame as any other

All frames are originally made by transforming a person

[swift gyro]

but they are human too, at least part human.

[tall echo]

For now

Eventually there will be nothing visibly human left

[swift gyro]

yeah, when they transform is when i consider them fully frames, ik its wrong but still prefer to think that way.

[swift gyro]

as far as we know, how much time does it takes to fully transform?

[tall echo]

That seems unnecessarily complicated

[tall echo]

Unknown

Normally it's quick, but the protos are slowed drastically

Probably like half an hour at most tho for regular frames

Infestation works quick

[swift gyro]

also. ballas build the complete warframe and albrecht makes proto to wait them to fully transform, is that correct?

[tall echo]

Albrecht wanted the protos to keep some humanity for not entirely clear reasons

But yes ballas designed and built (almost) all regular frames

Exclusions are revenant, temple and xaku, each for a different reason

[swift gyro]

so its correct, albrencht makes protos while ballas craft them already complete?
but if a proto transforms they lose their ´´humanity´´ or ``conscience´´?

[tall echo]

They'll fall victim to what the orokin called "infested madness", basically losing their mind and going berserk

[swift gyro]

after they go crazy, who tries to stop them? or the factions just let them go crazy till the warframe kills someone important and then the faction use them like tools? or i am just being overcomplicated again^?

[tall echo]

The orokin destroyed the original "feral" frames, although a couple more sane one were kept

They tried to weaponize them, but the frames tended to not care much for any difference between enemy and ally

[swift gyro]

hmm, curious about just proto frames that transform into warframe goes ´´berserker´´ or ballas warframes could happen that too?

[strange plinth]

all

[tall echo]

Any frames made with a human base

[swift gyro]

you said original, then a proto frame that goes berserk its the ´´original/1st´´ warframe of that type to exist?

[tall echo]

But after the tenno showed up the orokin used them to calm frames

[tall echo]

No

The protos are made from preexisting designs, which means the frames existed before them(except temple)

Protos are not the originals, despite DE's chosen name for them

Again, excluding temple

[swift gyro]

and who made the designs was ballas or albrecht when he stole the designs from ballas?

[swift gyro]

temple always being the excesion huh.

[tall echo]

You answered your own question

[tall echo]

Yeah, ballas made their design but never actually built them

Flare is the original temple

[swift gyro]

and then albrecht sneaked into ballas room, stole the designs and made protos. thats it?

[tall echo]

Yes

[strange plinth]

temple is the exception because they were never built, only designed by ballas
albrecht took that batch and gave it to flare, making them the first temple

[swift gyro]

looks like flare is the one who ´´suffered less´´ from all the warframes?

[tall echo]

Define "suffered less"

[pine orchid]

I'm not sure what suffered less is supposed to mean lmao all the warframes proto or not suffer from the process

[tall echo]

Yeah the transformation is uh. Not painless

[strange plinth]

the opposite really

[tall echo]

The protos are probably in constant agony actually

[swift gyro]

dang, DE got no sympathy over nothing.

[fallen iris]

How diabolical does my dude roathe have to be for even the orokin to call him a heretic

[pine orchid]

He's the Heretic of Xata, and Xata means Truth
does that mean... they hated him.... for speaking the truth?

[tawdry lintel]

Probably cuz he thinks the orokin are kinda trash and needs to do better

[swift gyro]

if a orokin thinks you are bad...then you deserver nothing but jail.

[tawdry lintel]

Kinda like some sort of self awareness, where it's like "man, we're kinda scummy actually"

[swift gyro]

i mean, dont all orokin think that about others? or u saying that roath specificly thinks that about orokins?

[tawdry lintel]

I think seeng them more in a pitiful way, instead of a hateful way.
Like he notices how awful the orokin act and how much debauchery and excess they get up to.

[swift gyro]

orokin seeing roath even opening his mouth:

[tawdry lintel]

Eh maybe
I guess the orokin, or who ever gave roathe the heretic of xata title, probably likes blissful ignorance
So when you have something trying to talk about the truthful reality or how scummy the orokin actually are, it probably easier to just labele em a heretic to keep the bliss going

[lean garden]

albrecht gave him that title no?

[swift gyro]

i mean, orokin already are egoist,selfish and even more selfish, so if roath said what orokin really are in the eyes of others like: you all are a poop head´´ then i guess everyone went against him. he tried to make the others orokin realize how much of a scum they all are, its a good ideia but not when he didnt had any allies or ways to convice them.

[tawdry lintel]

Dunno
He was the first one we heard say it tho

[swift gyro]

prob not, either other powerfull orokin or someone who was more ´´directly´´ attack by his words.

but about what roath did, didnt just ´´benefited´´ albrecht somehow?

[tawdry lintel]

I believe he say the general orokin were kinda ok, but it was the executors that really had to go.
He and nitokh were even planning on killing em all leading the orokin, according to Kim chats

[fickle tinsel]

Did Tenno command the railjacks?

I'd assume so bcs of Sevagoth

[tawdry lintel]

Like, it was just tenno who used railjacks, and only them?

[lean garden]

no there were non-tenno railjack crews

[fickle tinsel]

no, was it only them who commanded them?

[lean garden]

the tenno just could also use railjacks

but its not exclusive to them

[swift gyro]

arent all orokins are kinda ´´not´´ okay mostly, i mean, all of them do bad things no? or there is some orokin i dont know that made good things without wanting something back as payment?

[tawdry lintel]

I dont think so
Cy's crew were all normal people I believe

[fickle tinsel]

oh ok

[swift gyro]

you mean to ask if only tenno uses/used railjack?

[tawdry lintel]

Roathe pointed out their artistry and scientific advancements, so they did have some good stuff
I'm just going off the KIM chats

[tawdry lintel]

Like if tenno commanded then/were all Railjack captains

[swift gyro]

yeah, but orokins built and discovered great stuff. but they did all of that without making much civilizations suffer a hell?

[tawdry lintel]

Yeah
Some good, lot of bad
But still some good tho

[fast dew]

... their artistic shit probably involve a lot of blood ngl

Their Halloween costumes did such

Wore people's skin

[tawdry lintel]

Maybe
I'm just going of off what roathe said
Tho he may be a lil biased, cuz he is orokin

[swift gyro]

true, cant judge a planet we ´´barely´´ know about all of its civilians. about the ´´good´´ orokin, is mentioned any important orokin to the game story? or is just ´´yeah, a orokin helped me to cross the street those days, what a great guy´´

[fast dew]

A little is a understatement

[strange plinth]

to give them a tiny bit of credit, it could be an interesting medium

[swift gyro]

its fashion to them literally change appearance, so i guess they found it ´´beautifull´´

[strange plinth]

hold up the fact that ||roathe can't do continuity anymore|| means that ||the entrati family probably can't either||
roathe kim spoilers sorta
s o that plan's out the window

[fast dew]

It absolutely is, but its not good preservation wise.

[fast dew]

Yup. Its... sad.

[tawdry lintel]

I mean...
U would need yuvan for than

[swift gyro]

what exactly is ||continuity||?

[tawdry lintel]

Transferring your mind into a new body

[strange plinth]

erasing the body's old mind in the process

[tawdry lintel]

Yeah

[fickle tinsel]

did operators customize their Warframes in the old war? I'm trying to build lore for my operator

[tawdry lintel]

U guys ever seen x-men apocalypse?

[cunning tapir]

Orokin use that to transfer from their old bodies to younger bodies.
Yeah, Orokin were cruel like that.

[strange plinth]

based on what we see in the old peace, no

[fickle tinsel]

ok

thanks

[swift gyro]

so thats how orokin ´´immortal´´? and why exactly erase the old body mind, to stop from having two ´´persons´´ with the same mind?

[cunning tapir]

Functionally, yeah. That's how their "Immortality" works.

[strange plinth]

i don't think the erasing is optional, it just happens as part of the process

[fickle tinsel]

also, in the lore, are there multiple of each frame?

[strange plinth]

yes. very few are unique

[fickle tinsel]

is Sevagoth unique?

[tawdry lintel]

Not sure it if was a thing they could control and turn off
Kinda just seems like a direct effect of the ritual

[strange plinth]

probably not

[fickle tinsel]

ok cool, then I can use Sevagoth prime then

[swift gyro]

imagine going in a war agaisn the tennos, fighthing between blood and organs just to see this as your final moment:

[tawdry lintel]

Actually isn't base Sev basically the Void corrupted version of prime sev?

[fast dew]

Mind you, they almost exclusively used children for it.

[fickle tinsel]

he IS?

[strange plinth]

not confirmed anywhere tmk

[swift gyro]

it would be cool as hell if the old body could ´´live´´ it would then be like Soma, where if you transfer the ´´conscience´´ of your body to other body, it would made the body you were be able to wake up and think they are the original.

[tawdry lintel]

He's description kinda alludes to that I think
Past it in here if ur in game

[swift gyro]

thats...really orokin least bad thing.

[fickle tinsel]

Would make sense though, Base Sev doesn't look like a Railjack commander, whereas it feels like Prime Sev looks like a 1700s general (sorry if Im wrong on the outfit)

[strange plinth]

"The gilded helmsman emerges from the tempest, his shadow a lure for doomed souls."

[tawdry lintel]

Maybe it was the patch notes?
I swear I read that somewhere

[fickle tinsel]

thats primes the restored version?

Wait... if he is, does he still count as a prime?

[tawdry lintel]

I think so
Idk, I'm making dinner rn, can't really look rq TwT

[humble sierra]

It's implied the Prime is how he was before being void corrupted

[fast dew]

Primes are bettered versions. Not always the originals.

[tawdry lintel]

Like lore wise?
Idk. What makes a prime?

[fickle tinsel]

ohhh

[solid dove]

Read Lavos's Prime Entry it explains it

[tall echo]

nah, the opposite

[tawdry lintel]

Unless your lavos and just prime yourself

[strange plinth]

-# "The dark helmsman re-emerges, powerful and pristine. With the regality of a dashing naval commander, Sevagoth Prime (and his gilded Shadow) are armed and ready for any encounter — on the high seas, in the Proximas, or beyond."

[swift gyro]

oh yeah, in roathe case, he was trying to be a good guy...right?

[tawdry lintel]

Is that all that was mentioned?

[tall echo]

nah in general

orokin are horrible so if an orokin thinks you're bad, you're a saint

[tawdry lintel]

I guess good for a orokin

[lean garden]

The whole "sevagoth base is a degraded prime" or anything adjacent comes from that one stream where the primes designer was talking about their inspirations for the design, which is to say: that has squat to do with the actual lore

[tall echo]

roathe, for the extremely low bar of the orokin, is among the nicest of them all

[fickle tinsel]

Also, if you compare the 2, base sev kinda looks like it could be a skeleton of prime Sev

[swift gyro]

oroking are terrible but if you are only bad, u are kinda a saint as you said, thats kinda funny tho.

[tawdry lintel]

Darn TwT

[thick yacht]

The Empire wasn’t Beyond salvation

[lean garden]

too bad no one saved them

[tawdry lintel]

Yeah basically this

[thick yacht]

We did, and then we betrayed them in the end

[fickle tinsel]

W patch notes though

[swift gyro]

oh, i remembered something i had curiosity on. who is the strongest tenno,? if there is someone like that. and what exactly change if a tenno gets stronger?

[tall echo]

oh, it was

[tall echo]

there is no strongest tenno

[strange plinth]

really only two options anyway

[fickle tinsel]

would tenno actually wear different outfits or did they all have what was shown in the old peace (again, lore building for my tenno)

[fickle tinsel]

I currently got the peak that is the Dex outfit

[swift gyro]

prob wear different underwears...i hope so.

[iron tiger]

If you could visit 1 irl planet/moon in warframe which one would it be?

[strange plinth]

those in the academy would have the tauron suit
they'd all have the zariman suit
unsure if they'd be allowed customization. do what ya want there

[fickle tinsel]

ok

[fickle tinsel]

Does Duviri count?

[earnest sapphire]

PLANET!!!!!!

[iron tiger]

No

[fickle tinsel]

darn

[earnest sapphire]

MOOOOONNNNNNN

[fickle tinsel]

uhhh probably Lua

[earnest sapphire]

Uranus

[swift gyro]

prob void and use my imagination to get goth mommy frames for me...

[iron tiger]

Yall actually answered my question in reverse funny enough

[strange plinth]

it was unclear

[tawdry lintel]

Tenno or warframe?

[tall echo]

neither planet nor moon

[swift gyro]

tenno. i heard that there was a strongest tenno or something.

[tall echo]

also you can't control CE

[tawdry lintel]

Idk
There not a lot known tenno
Only kids u meet on the zariman during the new war quest, the player and rell

[solar salmon]

Maybe I'm just stating the obvious but we've known this for a while, why else would the tenno know to play stringed instruments and would they have warframe servants that specialize in sound, their scripts are pure art, Albrechts notes are poetry. All empires have beautiful art and advancements that's just a natural human drive. These things live on despite a failed system

[swift gyro]

then prob zariman,i find really beatifull the scenarion...not considering the dangerous parts tho.

[solar salmon]

The empire had to fall without a doubt there was no saving it

[tall echo]

.aalso neither planet nor moon...

[tall echo]

probably venus

[fickle tinsel]

on the topic of the Zariman, how big was it? was it like bigger than Lua?

[swift gyro]

dang, then i cant go where i want to. then venus due to fortuna

[swift gyro]

if we look in the orbital, we can see more zariman than lua. lua is really small

[tall echo]

massive

[strange plinth]

we could also just be far closer to the zariman there?

[thick yacht]

The thing is the Empire degraded into the state we saw it in by Old Peace, it was originally never that terrible

Even the practice of Yuvan itself used to be considered an honor

[solar salmon]

It was still a slave trade

[tall echo]

doesn't mean it's a good practice

[thick yacht]

No, but it wasn’t yet the child slave trafficking we would see that defined the later Empire

[strange plinth]

huh

[tall echo]

where are you getting that from

[strange plinth]

the yuvans were always children afaik. doesn't matter if it was "honorable" or not, they were still dying just to prolong the life of some random rich guy

[thick yacht]

The Orokin Empire is the pinnacle of indifference, for they actually held the glory they pose as having. Yet, with their eternal lives, little by little they grew apathetic with that longevity. Whatever altruistic goals and truly honorable ceremonies devolved as they stopped caring and started seeking more extreme/any stimulus they could get to feel anything at all.

[slate basin]

you know whats crazy
we've only ever had interactions with the subordinates of the true leaders of the Orokin Empire, the Executors are under the Emperors, we still know absolutely zilch about those seven

[thick yacht]

It is when you think about it a tragic tale

The Orokin drove themselves into the depravity that would define them seeking immortality

[strange plinth]

even the "proto-orokin" we hear about in 1999 aren't that great tbh

[thick yacht]

It never had to be that way

[tall echo]

they went for immortality long before that

[strange plinth]

tbf the emperors didn't do anything and also probably died at the outer terminus when the night of naga drums began

[slate basin]

Roathe said it himself, the Orokin were too powerful and so bored that nothing could give them any excitement anymore, not even the threat of death

so they made their own damn problems to give them something to do, to the detriment of everyone else

[thick yacht]

They went for immortality, and then as immortal beings, just like Roathe himself says, their senses were whittled down and diluted to nothing, and they went to more extreme lengths to feel any sort of pleasure or pain

Eerily similar to the Aeldari Empire from 40k pre-fall actually

The Aeldari birthed Slaanesh from their depravity

The lesson is humans aren’t meant to be immortal

When Roathe returned and learned he could die, he FELT again

The orokin’s greatest folly was wishing to live forever

[fast dew]

I think its a understandable wish, death is scary

[ebon ravine]

been grinding out roathe parts and during his line about how he’s basically gonna whoop albrecht, i had an idea that likely has been floated before but what if albrecht is intentionally screwing people over to create a multitude of people (tagfer included) that hate him? with 1999 from what ive gathered one of the main plot points was the drifter developing deep positive connections to the hex as a part of fending off wally, but what if deep hatred is just as powerful against indifference?

[pine orchid]

I think it could make sense, love and hate are often said to be the opposite sides of the same coin
and that the true opposite is apathy

I think I had a theory a while ago that what Wally wants is a 'void' in someone, so like apathy and indifference

I think that was implied in the story of a spider thing from the isleweaver fragments too?

[strange plinth]

ehh
loid was spiteful towards albrecht and it was able to feed off of that

[solar salmon]

I think wally goes after people that his Dr Frankenstein is involved with as much as he targets their indifference

Hes a spiteful lost child in that way

[lean garden]

Not sure if the conversation has come out, but theyre right

[lean garden]

werent always thus

[ebon ravine]

it’s been a hot minute since i did whispers in the wall but from what i remember it kinda felt like wally was trying to find a crack in loid to worm himself in, not feed off his spite

[solar salmon]

Exactly

[strange plinth]

mmm.

i keep getting hit by roathe lore that i haven't gotten

[lean garden]

idk if its part of roathes 2.x series

[pine orchid]

loid was spiteful but I can see him effectively losing his lover results in a sort of void in him, and to me it seemed like loid was avoiding it in a way like shutting down your emotions

[lean garden]

but in essence, Continuity wasnt the horrific thing we know today

[pine orchid]

tbf it could just be me projecting what I perceive to be Loid's coping mechanism

[lean garden]

its still body horror yes, but it was concentual then

[strange plinth]

wonderful

[solar salmon]

Honestly the concept of the ruling caste of space fascists getting to live forever is horrific on a base level

Never mind the different ice cream scoop flavors of it

[ebon ravine]

it seems like wally tends to target abandonment when able, or at least that’s the vibe i get

[pine orchid]

that was my understanding of it, void as in space void but also including conceptual/emotional 'void'

[strange plinth]

more temptations for me to just spoil the convos i guess

[solar salmon]

I think wally finds people with daddy issues to trauma bond with in a literal way

That's a humoristic way of saying it but it roughly seems to be the modus operandi

[lean garden]

good luck lmao, its not an easy read at all

[ebon ravine]

the man in the wall LOVES doomed yaoi, it’s canon now

[pine orchid]

do you think Wally has daddy issues? is Albrecht his daddy???

[solar salmon]

Yes

Deal with the children of the zariman, the cavia who think they're Albrechts kids, the Lotus who is both a daughter and the new mother to the tenno, it calls to neci rusalka which I mean have you talked to her adoptive parents

[ebon ravine]

but yeah it may be reaching but i feel as if a lot of themes in the games story beats can be tied to abandonment and rebuilding

[solar salmon]

The void is a mirror and the man in the walls birth and most defining moment was its father denying it and being mutilated to be used by the empire he served

[strange plinth]

i've seen how much of a mess the flowchart is for, i believe the third? convo
i don't doubt that
i'll consider it again when i inevitably get hit by another

[ebon ravine]

roathe’s interpretation of wally def feels clouded by his orokin perception but i do think his quote about wally being a snowballing feedback loop makes a fair bit of sense too

[solar salmon]

Which is why it honors deals I think it wants consent in its own inhuman way

[ebon ravine]

he’s treated as this boogeyman due to his initial negative conception and as a result he’s fed negative thoughts and emotions 24/7

[solar salmon]

I'm sure it's too late to save wally atp unless the operator being Jesus and redeeming Wally's sins isn't off the table going off the absolute mountain of biblical references to it in the old peace

Excal prime holding a crucifixion pose is insane btw I laughed my ass off seeing that

[marble pewter]

Talking about flowcharts, the consent convos feel out of character for the Hex..or I’m more surprised character wise that they all have the same answer

[tawdry lintel]

where was that?

[ebon ravine]

watch this arc end with the operator and drifter using conceptual embodiment to create wallette then she just makes wally normal, credits roll and wonderwall plays

[solar salmon]

Right before the operators resurrection

Crazy it didn't take three days but I guess space Jesus works diff

Its in the bg in the sentient mechs hand

[tawdry lintel]

with adis and valdur?

[solar salmon]

Yep

[dire mountain]

No it does its just that perita's day/night is really really long

[strange plinth]

they're mostly ok imo
its lettie's chat that's pretty far out there, both for lettie and eleanor

[dire mountain]

(I made this up)

[main crane]

Yes. Right after Hunhullus crushed us and he fell to the ground.

[marble pewter]

Wally just wants a friend but doesn’t know how to show it

[tawdry lintel]

oh
never noticed that

[ebon ravine]

one of the cavia hint at this, it was either bird 3 or tagfer

[marble pewter]

Tagferrrrr

[dire mountain]

It was tagfer

[marble pewter]

It was Tagfer I’m pretty sure

[ebon ravine]

love tagfer that’s my boy

[solar salmon]

Also another point to my wally has daddy issues and only relates to similar people thing rell contained his influence the longest and he arguably had the most parental issues out of anybody and had a hard time displaying proper emotion if that doesn't sound like a puzzle for a sympathetic connection seeking god I don't know what does

[marble pewter]

Every time I think of Cavia, the more angry I get at Albrecht sigh

[ebon ravine]

rell had contagious autism is canon now

[solar salmon]

I meant more like it related to being shunned but I think wally being on the spectrum would work he is an entire realm of reality after all

There's gotta be some autistic energy in the infinite seas of the void

[tawdry lintel]

anyone have any theories why uriel can speak voidtongue?
also why murmur fragments show up during his idle animations?

[dire mountain]

Sorry that was me

[ebon ravine]

honestly though it is a pretty interesting idea to think on, a god that’s based around emotions essentially trained on the emotions of a traumatized child who is on the spectrum and struggles to express emotions

[marble pewter]

Albrecht has something planned..no wonder he saved Roathe and brought him to the Cathedral

[ebon ravine]

at least for however long rell was keeping wally restrained

[solar salmon]

There were void children learning on that one island that went away in duviri I think it really tries to figure out its place in the world as a kid and it's just not happening

Bros so bad at being human

[iron tiger]

An orokin with ties to albrecht and one that was turned into a devil frame no less. from the system where albrecht is doing stuff. I feel like there’s a whole dictionary albrecht may have made

[solar salmon]

I mean the template he had to go off of was an orokin so like

[thick yacht]

Bro… how does this even happen?

[marble pewter]

And technically the first emotion the indifference learned was from Albrecht..which was fear

[thick yacht]

This isn’t me btw

[tawdry lintel]

what happened?
how'd u get that?

[thick yacht]

It isn’t me I’m at liked

Someone posted that

[ebon ravine]

do everything roathe wants you not to do

decline the deal, believe wally is a completely independent god, etc

[solar salmon]

Maybe they used bits of the cloned reliquary drives to make em

[thick yacht]

So basically be a giant ass

[solar salmon]

And that's why we get the mats for it out the void

[iron tiger]

Correct me if I’m wrong but the tau arc started because we think albrecht is there? But why would he be there?

[tawdry lintel]

"there" where?

[solar salmon]

Im p sure he outright says tau is in reach or something

[iron tiger]

Not here

Tau

[ebon ravine]

pretty much, its fair that they give you SOME wiggle room with challenging his beliefs but it wouldn’t make sense for an orokin to tolerate you basically going “nuh uhhhhhhh, nuh uhhhhhhhhhh!” and declining their orders/ beliefs

[marble pewter]

Why do Lyon and Marie hate Roathe apart from..possibly his personality (?)

[iron tiger]

So he’s not there but he’s almost there

[tawdry lintel]

maybe?
idk
was it even explain why the operator is using the dark refractory?
i know its to reclain their memories of tau, but what prompted that?

[ebon ravine]

wally is burrowed in the repressed memories

or at least that’s what i’ve gathered, how they got there? not expanded on

[iron tiger]

Bruh DE keeps leaving gaps in the story like drifter just ended up knowing about the op somehow and that was never elaborated on

[tawdry lintel]

it seems like he doesn't want us to remember what happend

[thick yacht]

Also doesn’t help that he doesn’t know you either

[pine orchid]

I like to think Teshin was the one who told Drifter about the Operator

[marble pewter]

Is it because Roathe forcibly (?) || brought them through the Helminth? ||

[tawdry lintel]

didn't the meet during the new war?

[thick yacht]

I’m pretty sure the only way to fix that is by doing a reset at the new year too, so you’re pretty much cooked for 4 weeks

[solar salmon]

I'm pretty sure part of this was lotus or margulis wiping the tennos mind so they wouldn't have the trauma

[pine orchid]

spacedad skipped the edgy teen phase only to meet edgy adult version of us

[solar salmon]

As we saw in the void trauma is quite tangible when it's involved

[tawdry lintel]

probably margulis with the Dream

[ebon ravine]

yeah would make the most sense, old mentor dies and is reborn in a magic pocket of space and finds an older version of one of their students pretty much, i’m sure he’d have a lot to talk about

[thick yacht]

This is me rn

[iron tiger]

I’m talking more about how the drifter came to know of the origin system and operator, escaping duviri and all that

[thick yacht]

I also unlocked Lyon

[marble pewter]

They presumably talk

[fast dew]

Nah, Roathe was forced through the helminth, marie and Lyon got helminth'd by Albrecht's time there

[tawdry lintel]

oh yeah, how the drifter got to the systen, found ordis and the lotus and all that?
i think DE said if they showed what happend, it would just result it more questions

[fast dew]

It makes me think it was right after duviri ngl

[marble pewter]

If that one email meant anything lol

[pine orchid]

I'm pretty sure that was Teshin too even if we didn't get to see it? at least it was alluded to at the end of Duviri Paradox with Teshin being like now it's your turn to help them

[solar salmon]

I think that specifically is supposed to be the paradox because the mechanism for the drifter to be freed was lotus' hand being cut at the end of new war. So their freedom is entirely on a different time scale

[marble pewter]

Ohhhhh thanks for clearing that up

[ebon ravine]

likely this but it also could be an attempt at saving them from wally’s influence, i thought the massacre was meant to be the operator giving in and unknowingly giving into wally’s influence and letting him take control to some extent (due to the rap tap tap line)

[iron tiger]

Ohhh that’s actually a very good plot point I had not thought about

[marble pewter]

Most likely after he saw what choice we took with Neci

[iron tiger]

Centuries could’ve passed in duviri while an approximate 10-30 years passed for the origin system under narmer

[tawdry lintel]

yeah i would really like for DE to explain that
my theory is that the Drifter will find (or has found) the lotus after finding her hand
we were shown that 3 things entering the void portal (Teshin, Lotus, her hand) around the same time, but all ened up in duviri in wildly different times

[strange plinth]

the paradox is that drifter can't escape duviri without help from the operator, but operator can't help drifter unless they're already out

[solar salmon]

Most likely but it was rell specifically that reduced the influence of wally on the tenno

[iron tiger]

Would’ve been a fun escapade to see drifter meet ordis for the first time

[fast dew]

To specify what i mean

||Albrecht, during his time in duviri, kinda realised that compassion was the key, and in xx99, Albrecht was purposefully preaching those things, teaching the people how to feel compassion for your lessers ect ect||

[marble pewter]

Wait so is there a definite reason why they hate Roathe?

[tawdry lintel]

what type of paradox would it be?

[fast dew]

Hes literally the devil from the bibble

[tawdry lintel]

maybe they could have even helped ordis get a new body

[iron tiger]

The Duviri paradox

[solar salmon]

Yeah that's way better illustrated. The drifter getting to the origin system is loose and mysterious specifically because of the paradox

[tawdry lintel]

i mean a bootstrap paradox or something
idk, thats the only type i cant think of

[marble pewter]

Oh that’s all? I suspected that but I was thinking there were more reasons. Helminth being one of them but that wasn’t the case like you said

[solar salmon]

He also acts like an ass

[fast dew]

He's also a child killer and kidnapper, mass murderer and a heretical blue little shit who thinks hes better than everyone

[strange plinth]

the devil from da bible

[iron tiger]

I’m pretty sure this is more a dimensional paradox than a temporal one but it is a little bit of both

[tawdry lintel]

maybe just him being a sinner or something
Lyon and Marie where tasked by albrecht to help him

[stiff fable]

I mean that's enough. But in addition to that he lives down to all the stereotypes of devils their culture has, and he's rude

[solar salmon]

A space time paradox if you will

[marble pewter]

Ah right, that’s true.

[fast dew]

... he killed civilians dawg. He is the devil.

[iron tiger]

Because they’re supposed to be the same atoms but different versions, two existing in the same universe at the same time isn’t meant to happen especially when the atoms are of different age

[stiff fable]

He's also unrepentant of his crimes and dismissive of their faith

[marble pewter]

istg he just has so much sass

[iron tiger]

Haha yes I love that

[tawdry lintel]

wait, what was albrecht doing in XX99?
he was in 1999 cuz of time travel stuff, and to escape wally

[fast dew]

Mildly offtopic bur I love how Marie says "Devil" to Roathe

[strange plinth]

its kind of a bootstrap, yeah
the events can't occur without the other happening first

[solar salmon]

They occupy the same space in the universe they just switch in and out hence the portal hands icon in the operator menu

[fast dew]

Well
We don't even know why Albrecht went to 1999 in the first place.

[tawdry lintel]

doesn't his notes mention something?

[solar salmon]

The dormizone is their own little pocket of void unaffected by those laws or sumn

[stiff fable]

I think my favorite interaction between them is this one:

Lyon: "By Lua I bless the night and all its respite."

Roathe: "By the void I wish these two would shut up.”```

[fast dew]

The vessels? That idea came later.

It also came from loid :)

[pine orchid]

they're shown together in Lotus Eaters but I can believe that it's more of a stylistic choice

[stiff fable]

Not only is it inherently funny, it also reflects their respective alignments in ways DE doesn't usually do them

[solar salmon]

Area heavily effected by the void reality is visually thin there

[strange plinth]

the dormizone would be close enough to the void that it gets the 'they can both exist here under extreme circumstances' thing like the edge of sanctum anatomica

[tawdry lintel]

yeah, maybe they take turns

[iron tiger]

So I’m guessing through the power of the void the paradox is stabilized and drifters atoms reach a insubstantial state where it’s in the void beyond the multiverse

[thick yacht]

First character I liked so much I was willing to drop almost 300p just to get a skin of

[stiff fable]

Usually the Sol alignment is kinda.... crusaderish? Very SMITE THE EVIL

[fast dew]

Oh also

[solar salmon]

They defo take turns in the origin system