lore-discussion

[fast dew]

All of them :)

WRONG ONE. God dammit

[smoky solstice]

like I absolutely reject that the accidental creation of a void being just obviously means that humans can claim everything created by wally as being created by them

[fast dew]

Well

[fast dew]

Does that mean the sentients individually created outside the original sentients aren't of human origin

[smoky solstice]

I mean I'm not saying the xenoflora wally association isn't a reach, I just don't know how I feel about it being debunked by... the promo material referring to it as alien

[fast dew]

Promo material is canon wdym

Thats like. A whole thing.

Unless its not made by DE, it should be treated as canon.

[smoky solstice]

what I'm saying is that a void being creating stuff does not hit the same as humans creating things

[fast dew]

Guess... guess who created wally...

Even accidentally...

[misty salmon]

feels like that might be the other way around. Nihil was around for naga drums and used his abilities to flee, was he an executor at that point?

[fast dew]

Yeah it is meant to be the other way around story wise, i mean like. Irl 😭

[smoky solstice]

THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEAN, like I even told you if you read the paragraph above, since what I'm saying is that DE could either use "alien" as a shorthand or they could consider a void being accidentally created by humans creating something in a completely different system and humans discovering that to be humans discovering alien life

your whole argument rests on this assumption that wally creating something = a human creation. Not just that, it rests on the assumption that this is the inarguable, only way to interpret the word alien, DE absolutely could not have a different interpretation

[fast dew]

Wanna know why nothing Wally "makes" is alien? Its fragments of himself. Like hunhow and the sentients in the origin system. He isn't "making" anything.

He didn't even make scholars landing

[strange turtle]

DE would not use the single thing that they have specifically avoided for the rest of the setting as a shorthand

[fast dew]

Mhm

A lot of things are planned. It was a huge reveal for a reason.

[smoky solstice]

ok, name instances of them "specifically avoiding" alien life

[fast dew]

Considering its also consistent in the game.

.. wally's fragments

Wally himself, the sentients

Yonta's own void manifestation

They didn't even want to do full robots

[strange turtle]

And again, if it was void stuff they would know, because they can tell when stuff is Voidy

[smoky solstice]

ok so wally himself, a void being, I'm not sure if alien would work for unrelated reasons there, and the sentients are a human invention, even if they have the ability to self-repair and self-replicate, the patent has a human name on it

[fast dew]

The entirety of Duviri

They specifically avoid making anything "alien"

[smoky solstice]

I'm not saying that there was literally a sentient patent, in case there was confusion surrounding that

[fast dew]

There is one? How else do you think they made them lol

[smoky solstice]

what would they make alien here? like now we're moving to another solar system, it makes sense that now we have something that's alien

like the solar system irl doesn't have any alien life

[fast dew]

.. the flowers. They made the flowers alien.

[iron pond]

So do we get specific of how narmer got archon shards

[smoky solstice]

saying wally is alien life doesn't make sense since it feels weird to even call it life

[strange turtle]

I mean he might not be biologically alive, because hes not biological, but he certainly isn’t dead

[smoky solstice]

like you're making it sound like DE's whole position is to be very careful with the word alien, but I also don't really see where in warframe they could've used this word before going to another solar system and discovering new areas of the universe

[fast dew]

They are

They are like. really careful about it.

[smoky solstice]

well you didn't even read what I said but alright

[fast dew]

Anything that didn't seem to be of human origin, they've explained away by being of human origin.

Do you think they keep it accurate to irl systems?

They sure didn't with Tau.

[smoky solstice]

I mean, even with wally it's a bit debatable whether it's of human origin, considering that the mechanics that made it happen are not related to humans, but I guess you could argue that

I guess I can see what you're talking about actually

like all of the weird stuff does get explained away as tech, or the infestation, or whatever else

does the infestation have a human origin? I mean I don't think it matters, since I believe it originated in earth (correct me if I'm wrong), so it wouldn't be called alien life anyway

[fast dew]

It seems to have.

[silk atlas]

Earliest known outbreaks mention it's from Earth, but nothing more

[smoky solstice]

either way, I guess I can see what you mean, DE does tend to reveal like oh this super weird thing was actually created by ahole #4 and it's been terrorizing the system for millenia

I do find the associations weird though, I mean I think the writers have been doing this weird thing where they have associations to other events in the story that seemingly don't have more significance than it just fitting thematically or something

like adis going "tenno... LIES!" the same way Lotus does in the new war

so maybe the xenoflora doing the exact thing that wally did to the Cavia and also having a very void based look might just be that

[strange turtle]

I still don’t get the whole “looks like Void” thing

Like I’ve seen multiple people say it

[smoky solstice]

I mean it's blue, has this sort of particle aura around it

[silk atlas]

It's silver and slightly blue. That's really it.

[smoky solstice]

definitely gives off operator ability vibes

[strange turtle]

But the only similarity I see is consciousness stuff and metal

[silk atlas]

As if other things can't be blue and metal.

[stiff beacon]

Sounds like a hollow knight joke

[fast dew]

It wouldn't be void. Sentients are specifically weak to the void

[strange turtle]

And it doesn’t look that much like the voidy metal we’ve seen, and the type of blue isn’t even really the same

[smoky solstice]

yeah, except also all the blue particles and stuff like that

[smoky solstice]

yeah, that was the one big hole in my hypothesis

[silk atlas]

This is like me suggesting the egg is like the Jade Light when it's just green and light.

[smoky solstice]

was hoping something would come along to patch it up, another retcon or something

[woven coyote]

considering the lines in the quest it's probably meant to visually represent the "pollen"

[fast dew]

There's usually context clues that make it "void looking", such as Albrecht's portrait and the scarring around his eyes

[smoky solstice]

yeah but it's visually very reminiscent of the void based abilities, I don't think you can say that it just has the same color, which is also weird on its own by the way, considering that there are a million blues you can pick from

[fast dew]

It logically wouldn't be anything else. Scarring + blue glowy thing around the area where he got blinded by the void

[smoky solstice]

and also, there is definitely other stuff in the old peace that are callbacks to previous things without there seemingly being any sort of lore significance behind it

like is there lore significance to the tenno lies thing? I don't think there is

maybe I'm missing something there

[fast dew]

Idk if you can see it, but there is blue areas of scarring :D

Oh, and the circular nature of it

[silk atlas]

Frankly the Void stuff looks a bit greener than the Xenoflora

Like Xenoflora is just blue

[woven coyote]

trying to figure out the central mural in la cathedrale right now but i'm having some difficulty with the vowels

suhmuhm bahnuhm: lyt ohntooh ayternehteeh
(summon ?? : light into eternity)

this is what i got

[thick yacht]

Does the Operator enjoy killing?

[oblique plaza]

is there a cypher anywhere? i can take a crack at it if there is

[woven coyote]

closest we have is the 1999 version

https://wiki.warframe.com/w/1999_Language#

[hexed skiff]

did we have any records of ballas reaching tau pre old peace?

[strange turtle]

No but we knew the Solar Rail was up and that he could have

[cloud igloo]

i wonder which is the glutton /s

and less meme-y, im curious how intended is the whole "7 overlords = 7 deadly sins" type thing

[fast dew]

Oh it definitely is intended

[oblique plaza]

seems like it should be bahnowm/buhnowm

[cloud igloo]

which would you say is ballas then? pride?

[fast dew]

Mhm

Definitely. Pride is what ballas is, imo

[cloud igloo]

(also can you pls tell me where you found the image)

i recognize the statues from the old peace academy

[fast dew]

He does say "lust is his sin" but thats just him saying shit

[fast dew]

Made by a mutual in the orokin archives discord lol

[oblique plaza]

is he not envy?

[cloud igloo]

oh. lore server? i should join haha

[cloud igloo]

2 sides of the same coin i say

its not a true 7 deadly sins analogy without SOME overlap

[oblique plaza]

also have a clearer version, its easier to read

[fast dew]

Mhm. We currently have a vc going on attempting to hit 200 hours too lmao

We just hit 100

[oblique plaza]

as far as i cal tell here the character after the colon is new, and is not an L

[cloud igloo]

if not "light" into eternity, maybe .. "fight" ?

[strange turtle]

This is the man who was so prideful that, aside from most of his other dialogue, he said this shit:

“My vision was only ever comprehensible to myself. My ambition beyond the grasp of… 'people'. Thus I have always been alone. Your death changes nothing.”

[cloud igloo]

makes sense, orokin found "meaning" in war, however shallow

[fast dew]

Life becomes monotonous and boring if death isn't a risk

[strange turtle]

He also allowed his lover to die to soothe and protect his own ego, and then developed such a raging victim complex about it that he betrayed and ruined his entire empire

[fast dew]

Waaa i chose to kill someone i love and now i feel bad waaaaaaaa

[strange turtle]

https://tenor.com/view/sonic-sonic-the-hedgehog-sonic-fandub-gif-26393814

[cloud igloo]

sums up ball-ass wellenough

[fast dew]

I mean its like. Well what's the motivation to do anything if you won't die? There's no rush to it

I like death, keeps us humble

Or lest we end up akin to the golden bastards

[strange turtle]

I mean theres plenty of pressures to do things aside from death

[cloud igloo]

most of em time related. and only time pressure is death. from their perspective as deathless royalty with no "troubles of tomorrow"

[oblique plaza]

my wager is its a w, and the word is wite

[fast dew]

Rite?

[cloud igloo]

wite..? as in blame?

oooooooooh, blame onto the sentient??

[copper mountain]

I'm also getting the same result "s-uhm-uhm b-awn-uhm: l-eyet uhn-t-oo iht-ehr-n-ut-ee"
No clue what the first two words are but the stuff after the colon is undoubtedly "Light unto eternity."

[oblique plaza]

but thats not an l

l is a full size letter

[copper mountain]

No, l is half-size like h

[strange turtle]

“Don’t want to do it later/want to do it now”
“Literally cannot be done later”
“Why not do it now”
“Not invested enough to put the effort in to have things arranged to get another chance”
“Nothing better to do”

[copper mountain]

M and n are full-length

[oblique plaza]

why does this have l full size then?

[copper mountain]

Art team's inconsistencies. There's also a lot of oopsies involving written vs phonetic english

[fast dew]

Pokes you all

So Lyon has these cards on him, what does the loid one translate to? Arthur apparently translates to second sun

[oblique plaza]

second son

[cloud igloo]

Emmet selch? what are you doing here /s

[oblique plaza]

oh woops

i did the wrong one

[fast dew]

I said loid 💔

[oblique plaza]

first son by the look of it

[fast dew]

Thats... odd

Well, its odd to see loid or arthur in general, considering these are cards on Lyon's skin

[oblique plaza]

his hand is blocking where the vowel would be but frst is pretty obviously first

[cloud igloo]

whats on the Halo on the top left

[fast dew]

No clue, that's why im asking here

I don't even know who the top two are

[oblique plaza]

do you have a higher quality version? i want to see what the top left one says but the vowels are damn near unreadable

[fast dew]

Mm, lemme see

[cloud igloo]

sol/lua (the gods) were sisters, no?

[copper mountain]

(In Order)

• "r-uhf-l-ehk-sh-uhn", or "reflection"
• no text in image two
• "s-uhk-uhn-d s-uhn, or "second son"
• "f-r-s-t s-uhm", or "first sum" (might be intended as "son" but they used an "m" by mistake)

[fast dew]

Lovers. And sol is masculine

Sol is masculine, Lua is feminine

[cloud igloo]

oh...

[strange turtle]

Velimir’s great great great great grandad and Roathe’s great great great great great great grandmother

[fast dew]

Whats the line Eleanor has? Marriage... war?

Something about Komi

[strange turtle]

“Wedding-war”

Icl, whatever tf it is we got with Adis is way more interesting than some checkers match so

Medieval L ig

[fast dew]

It probably is supposed to be first son yeah. Wonder what this all could mean.

[cloud igloo]

entrati's interest? (of any kind)

Loid was obv one.
Eleanor was birthed first, and Arthur 2nd, hence the "2nd son"

[fast dew]

OHH

[cloud igloo]

and lyon has them because ... prophecy?

(im spitballing)

[fast dew]

Cept i couldn't see it with Loid. "First son" in regards to loid doesn't really make sense

[cloud igloo]

its not like im a good detective haha ¯_(ツ)_/¯ im guessing

[fast dew]

Someone did suggest that these are saints of sorts

Albrecht influencing older stuff maybe

[cloud igloo]

considering he eventually became the archdeacon (i think marie mentions something like that?)

• the whole "toying with the timeline like i see fit" thing

[fast dew]

Cardinal, next to the pope basically

Like. To be the pope, almost

Needs to be a certain type of Cardinal

[strange turtle]

Albrecht realising it was kinda messed up to make the necraloid so he makes him adored and worshipped by hundreds of thousands instead (he made a joke about it once early in their relationship and Albrecht didn’t clock on because Orokin)

[woven coyote]

the ow has a distinctly flatter top which you can see on the side murals

[fast dew]

This is so real of Albrecht

[oblique plaza]

are we able to get the cathedral as a captura?

[fast dew]

Mess up then overcompensate

[oblique plaza]

all of the book have pretty clear text on them but i can get close enough for a good screenshot

[humble sierra]

Lyon sells it I think

[woven coyote]

on b-ahn-uhm it cant be aw because that is a closed circle, at least on the cypher we have

[cloud igloo]

yall got to talk to him already?

[oblique plaza]

he doesnt like me yet

[humble sierra]

No, it's just that they've announced his wares in the patch notes

[cloud igloo]

ah lmao

[fast dew]

Oh? Where?

Or if you can, just get a screenie and post it here

[humble sierra]

Gimme a sec!

[woven coyote]

https://www.warframe.com/news/operation-blood-of-perita

oh oops

missread

[humble sierra]

No, thanks for that Delta! I forgot to check that out

[brazen seal]

Yay
Another event with eidolon arcanes

[fast dew]

Love how the place is just called The cathedral

But since its in french its fancy

[woven coyote]

when i read "they announced his wares" i totally thought it was about roathe's operation wares lol

[fast dew]

Oh yeah

[fast dew]

We're getting that hate skin back too

[copper mountain]

That's a z shape over the n; that's an "aw" sound. I just checked the translation image you linked and it's... uh... wrong? The open o shape corresponds to the "oh" vowel. The "ah" vowel is covered by the apostraphe shape above it.

Use this chart instead; it's even linked in the actual wiki page you linked, while the embedded image is not (likely an older version of the page that never got cleaned up).

[fast dew]

The violent urge to get the entrati one on my calf

[woven coyote]

both cyphers are there

[copper mountain]

Oh

[fast dew]

Oh yall would also appreciate this

Hold on

[copper mountain]

So there's two conflicting cyphers then

[woven coyote]

yup

[copper mountain]

Anyway I'm still using mine because ego

[cloud igloo]

i love the dump it easter egg

[woven coyote]

also "ae" seems to be spun around in the XX99 version

[humble sierra]

Imagine that it's actually in French first

[cloud igloo]

somethign something linguistics and sound inversions

[humble sierra]

so you need to first translate the orokin to french and then french to english

[cloud igloo]

pls no

[woven coyote]

side murals already make sense in english tho

[humble sierra]

ofc just making a joke

lowkey though that'd be neat

[woven coyote]

it's really the central one that i cant figure out what it should be

[humble sierra]

Maybe that's in French?

What's the phonetics say?

[fast dew]

Make Them Pay

Step On Me Major

___ :D
My Cough Is Only Cancer

We Go Around And Around
In The Night And Are
Consumed By Fire

☆ Proud To Be Höllvanian ☆

I Have Seen The Cat

The kalymos one is my favourite [translated by @/aifrie :)]

[copper mountain]

It'd be a fun challenge but it means even more opporunities for the written and phonetic rules to get turbo-blasted.
I'm still mad about the word "superbikes" in "Zevila Superbikes" being encoded as "s-uhp-ehr b-ih-k-ehs"

[woven coyote]

suhmuhm bahnuhm: lyt ohntooh ayternehteeh
(summon ?? : light into eternity) this is what i got

[cloud igloo]

step on me major ahgahahahhaha
they know their audience

[fast dew]

I forgot about that one-

I was more focused on the idea that Höllvanian citizens are aware of kalymos and treat her almost like a cryptid

"I have seen the cat" yeah fair

[woven coyote]

distrahh owher dowt (destroy our doubt)

left mural

[copper mountain]

I remember finding that one on the day of the Tennocon relay with a buddy and live-translating it and just refusing to finish once I realized what it said. They know their audience.

[cloud igloo]

she looks like a cryptid tbh

[fast dew]

Especially considering she follows around Albrecht, who was also like

A creature

[woven coyote]

iloominit owher path (iluminate our path)

right mural

[cloud igloo]

the doctor
doctor who

[copper mountain]

Also not related but a topical flex nonetheless
https://discordapp.com/channels/552966801558863896/786650808321048596/1265561367528869898

[humble sierra]

Very unlikely it's "The Train" but it could literally be the train too since time travel and all

[woven coyote]

hmmmm

[humble sierra]

like he has that machine that has subway cars

but again that's very unlikely

[fast dew]

Oh hell yeah

[cloud igloo]

wasnt there a random ass train that passed through his lab in the sanctum tileset during the quest

[fast dew]

"The train" as in the one Albrecht tried to kill us with

[humble sierra]

Exactly!

[fast dew]

Its still so funny

[oblique plaza]

or the one we first linked to arthur in

[fast dew]

Broski stole cars for hells sake

Albrecht being a goober and yoinking shit is my favourite thing

[cloud igloo]

all part of his masterplan

[fast dew]

Along with him being incapable of being able to do domestic chores

Can figure out time travel but can't cook for the life of him

[fast dew]

IM NOT JOKING BTW

There's a tile on the labs that will have cars in like

A big ol thing

How did he get those cars

[humble sierra]

He realized he was stuck in 1999 after Loid first sent him, he didn't have a way back

https://tenor.com/view/delorean-car-back-to-the-gif-13661922

So he just built flux capacitors

[copper mountain]

OK so this is a lot of text and TennoTyper has supported 1999 script for more than a year now...
I'm going to try and translate some of this with my guess being that it's just lorem ipsum.

Oh balls the first two words are "and in" it's actual text

[cloud igloo]

your sacrifice will be appreciated

[copper mountain]

Better news: all of the books are the same texture

[fast dew]

I know this pain! In the doom series (post the first doom eternal dlc) all maykr text is translatable! And there's a lot! The mucking shield on the new game's doomguy maykr skin is translatable! The SHIELD

[fast dew]

Reckon he hotwired em and crashed em into the labs

Or did he like

Take it apart in the middle of the night and skedaddle

[humble sierra]

OMG that's foul

I'd honestly prefer a Lorem Ipsum to that

especially since one of the pages is covered by the other book so you'll miss out on lore + contexualizing info

[fast dew]

Consider

Bacon Ipsum

[viscid yacht]

hop on lunaro

[copper mountain]

No it's all good. There are other books and they all have the same texture so reading one reads them all.
All start with "And in..."

[cunning tapir]

I'm predicting it'll end with a kudos to the first maniac who manages to translate the whole thing.

[fast dew]

And in the beginning

Or something

[copper mountain]

No, the next word is either "this" or "those", still trying to read the bloody vowel

[lean garden]

and in this we write filler text to see which one of you is crazy enough to read us

[copper mountain]

Alright, finally got a nice and juicy screenshot

For anyone else who'd like to participate

Only page 1 of course; I'll try for a better second page later

[prisma dawn]

||Is it just me, or does Roathe sound almost… remorseful about part of his past as an Orokin?||

[humble sierra]

Well he's romanceable, so they have to make him likable somehow in spite of his Orokinness

[tall echo]

Lickable?

[prisma dawn]

Lmao-

I mean, if you’re into that.

[tall echo]

Depends

[fast dew]

He certainly is lickable.

[prisma dawn]

I mean, the infestation of the protoframes isn’t contagious, I don’t think.

[proper barn]

Probably not.

[prisma dawn]

Please correct me if I’m wrong. I’m rusty on the canon.

[proper barn]

It is terminal.

[tall echo]

Helminth is generally non-contagious

[proper barn]

Probably.

[silk atlas]

If that was a problem then we'd have major issues with our Warframes going everywhere

[prisma dawn]

Valid.

[proper barn]

Yeah it's made with the helminth virus. If that was contagious we'd have some problems.

[next mica]

I think nidus is the only one who's kinda contagious, but he's a frame boosted with infestation

[prisma dawn]

Again, I’m rusty on canon.

[fast dew]

Helminth isn't contagious through normal infestation means, its unique like that.

[proper barn]

That's not how I would describe him.

[fast dew]

It is contagious, or it wouldn't be infecting anyone, but it is seemingly a bloodborne disease

[proper barn]

Whar

Do you mean Nidus?

[fast dew]

Similar to it

No, i mean the helminth in general

[tall echo]

A what disease

[proper barn]

Oh yeah. People get injected with it.

And that's how we see someone get turned into one.

[fast dew]

Bloodborne, means it travels via blood (or other fluids), like HIV

Instead of airborne (the spores we see)

[proper barn]

Ballas seemingly had like some machine he used

[tall echo]

You missed the joke

[proper barn]

To effect how people changed.

[fast dew]

Is it a reference to that game

[tall echo]

Yes

[lean garden]

https://tenor.com/view/full-moon-bloodborne-gif-13663686

[fast dew]

I think its more dependent on the strain and not the machine itself

[proper barn]

HE MAKES DIFFERENT WARFRAMEs.

[fast dew]

Aint it called bloodborn or am i remembering it wrong

[cloud igloo]

still borne

[tall echo]

You are

[proper barn]

Like he starts with a base and then makes a warframe to present to the other orokin.

[fast dew]

I mean physically influencing the helminth strain itself. Forcing certain evolutionary paths or whatever

[proper barn]

He says "I put you in the vice"

When talking about mirage.

[fast dew]

I think that process isn't reliant on a machine, but the injection would be

[proper barn]

And how mirage specifically like changed how she was gonna be made.

[fickle tinsel]

is this the Bible in Warframe?

[silk atlas]

Most of what we know of the Protoframes was they just get a needle stick and there it is if you already have the strain finished.

[proper barn]

https://youtu.be/LP9xH9hqC04?si=K65AgWVHEkB_xHQw

[tall echo]

I feel like you're focusing on the wrong thing

[next mica]

If it happen to be in french feel free to ask me for a trad

[proper barn]

Bibble.

[woven coyote]

bib

[tall echo]

Wible

[next mica]

but they also used a different strain, one directly based of original warframes

[brittle siren]

remember when we said we wanted Nihil or any Orokin to interacted more so we could get more lore? Yeah DE just make Roathe a walking lore nuke

[tall echo]

It's in english

[next mica]

damn you already translated it ? 🥲

[silk atlas]

The other other thing is that apparently someone (Parvos) can design a Warframe without even having access to whatever is used to develop a Warframe wholesale.

[brittle siren]

I mean he could just use Protea as base

[next mica]

you're talking about protea? wasnt it just about the power of money ?

[tall echo]

No but they translated the first two words

[copper mountain]

It is indeed in English

[proper barn]

Okay no Ballas designs it for him.

[tall echo]

Can orokin/protokin even be used for other languages

[thick yacht]

Does the Operator enjoy killing?

[proper barn]

Probably not.

[tall echo]

Maybe, maybe not

[silk atlas]

No, he didn't.

[lean garden]

it is about the power of money, but Protea is designed by parvos

[next mica]

like does theses word exist in other language or are they translated into something else?

[thick yacht]

It’s what drifter says that got to me tbh

[proper barn]

okay. Do you know what Design means?

[brittle siren]

ok so Ballas is not the worst Seven

[fickle tinsel]

Why would they not? They seem relatively unphased by it

[tall echo]

I mean can the scripts be used with other languages

[thick yacht]

Drifter has a dialogue option in one of the KIM chats which says they don't think Operator is "really a child" in terms of behavior because "that thing knows how to kill" (almost implying the Operator enjoys it, not that they are just a traumatized preteen forced to live as a weapon).

[lean garden]

but like, that's parvos's line tho

[next mica]

ahhh the language itself? no idea 🥲

if it reproduce the latin alphabet then yeah

[silk atlas]

Yeah? And Parvos is the one who designed it, the second line is his

[tall echo]

Orokin/protokin is a phonetic script

[thick yacht]

Drifter on the other hand seems to not enjoy killing at all and rather only ever do it if necessary

[proper barn]

@silk atlas okay so the Way Parvos talks about he he goes up to Ballas about what he wants and Ballas makes it for him. @lean garden

[thick yacht]

Especially having went through death themselves

[next mica]

theoricaly it could be used for any language then

[lean garden]

parvos literally gives ballas a design

[tall echo]

Phonetics are... unique between most languages

[proper barn]

Yes.

[lean garden]

what do you think ballas is commenting on right before the iconic "the entrati violated time and I have violated them"

[proper barn]

Do you understand like the difference between like making a houses blueprints and building the house?

[fickle tinsel]

So are you saying the operator also dislikes killing?

[proper barn]

That's what I'm saying.

[lean garden]

vinny, dont move the goalposts

you explicitly said ballas designed protea for parvos

[thick yacht]

No I’m saying drifter dislikes killing while operator at minimum is unfazed by it and at worst relishes/enjoys it to an extent

[next mica]

not really, there's an international phonetic alphabet used to be able to know how to pronounce most/every latin word, at least

[thick yacht]

If only to not end up feeling guilty over it

[proper barn]

Is Pravos didn't create protea he just like sends over whar he wants her to be. That's what the "Oh someone like Parvos can just design a warframe" meaning like

[lean garden]

^

[fickle tinsel]

ohhh ok

[proper barn]

Make one themselves.

Which isn't what parvos does.

[next mica]

like, the different way to makes a sound change depending of the language: but the sounds itself stay the same, so if you know how to make every sound, you can pronounce every words, even tho you'll need a rewritten version of the word in phonetic

[thick yacht]

Guess that’s what happens when you’re forced to become a weapon of war and death

From killing their parents on the zariman to fighting three system wide wars and dozens of other conflicts

[tall echo]

Operator is desensitized

[fickle tinsel]

yeah I was gonna say they might be unphased bcs thats all they know

[silk atlas]

Yeah, and I thought it was something of note for him to just come up with some design without even thinking of the fact there's the Infested used to make it, suggesting it is something flexible enough to (effectively) do whatever. And the previous comment was about the fact he designed it, I never mentioned him creating her from the ground up

[proper barn]

Yee.

[thick yacht]

Yes but things lead me to believe it’s deeper then just being desensitized

This is not the words of someone who’s just “doing what they have to do” like Drifter. This is the words of someone who enjoys what they’re doing

[next mica]

They may be heavily influenced by uriel tho, kinda like with umbra

[fickle tinsel]

Tbf, what seems like their best friend just died and their going after the person who did it

I think I'd be a bit mad as well

[humble sierra]

This is also exactly what is said during the Boss Fight at the end of Chains of Harrow

[thick yacht]

I’d agree, however, Operator told Valdor not to go back, indicating that even before taking control of Uriel we had full intentions of going back to Tauron and doing a massacre

[next mica]

oh yeah no he definitly choose to go back to tauron to kill ballas by himself

[thick yacht]

Ballas and whatever poor soul stood between them and Ballas

[next mica]

yeah

[thick yacht]

Whether that be sentient, grineer, or otherwise

[next mica]

but feeling pleasure about that? taunting that much ballas? nah for me its bc of some influence, now is that because of uriel, adis or wally no idea 🥲

[lean garden]

you are angry, but Im fairly certain it's wally influencing you

that's why you react the way you do when margulis asks you about the voices

because you absolutely did just listen to it

[tall echo]

Those are the words of someone running on primal anger

[fickle tinsel]

how does Umbra influence the operator?

[next mica]

make their memory kinda fuse together

[tall echo]

That's also very explicitly a one-off situation in the distant past not the operator's current mindset

[fickle tinsel]

ohhh ok

[next mica]

yeah totally agree: but how could we be sure than the operator only hear the voices that we hear (wally) and not adis or uriel too?

[thick yacht]

I have to doubt that considering the drifter’s words

The drifter’s dialogue indicates they’ve personally witnessed the operator killing

[tall echo]

Those being?

[thick yacht]

And saw their reaction

[tall echo]

"The kid knows how to kill"?

[next mica]

yeah cause the kid was trained to kill

doesnt mean they enjoy it, just know how to do it

[thick yacht]

They seem disturbed by it

[tall echo]

Surprised

[next mica]

yeah cause what kind of monster would train a kid how to massively kill peoples

[thick yacht]

Also, I don’t think operator has ever expressed regret for even one of their kills

[fast dew]

Kinda hard to

And they did in this update

[next mica]

adis

[smoky solstice]

what does tantivy mean? clearly it's some sort of battle chant but I'm not sure what it's in reference to

[thick yacht]

We didn’t kill Adis

We disabled his war machine

[tall echo]

Unknown

[next mica]

they died because of us tho

[smoky solstice]

gotcha

[next mica]

and operator feel guilty about it

[tall echo]

And injured him to a lethal degree

[proper barn]

No? They died cuz of the Orokin.

[thick yacht]

To be fair the score was 1-1 o that

They killed us and we injured them fatally

[proper barn]

Well he would have lived if he didn't have to Revive us.

[next mica]

they used their last sparkle of life to keep us alive ?

[tall echo]

Irrelevant point anyways

[proper barn]

More their healing powers

Like we see them like use it on a sentient to regain lost parts.

[tall echo]

Nothing here implies enjoyment

[proper barn]

Like I think Aidas would have lived

If they didn't gave to heal is from death.

[smoky solstice]

also, is uriel wally related? this might be another reach to find wally stuff when he isn't there but why is a warframe getting restrained for doing the devil's work? I mean it's just like a body

[tall echo]

No

[lean garden]

because adis couldnt hear it in the quest lol

[smoky solstice]

was the tenno controlling them working with nitokh? did they not have a pilot?

[tall echo]

Uriel might've just been a conscious frame

[fast dew]

The damn

What do you call it

[tall echo]

We get no lore beyond "yeah he did bad stuff"

[smoky solstice]

sure, ig part of the reason is us turning full wally in the final segment of the quest, but ig that's just the voices overtaking

[fast dew]

Ascaris? Those control rhe tenno and warframe

[smoky solstice]

oh like uriel was taken over with the ascaris?

[tall echo]

Nah

[fast dew]

No, the orhtee warframes

[smoky solstice]

ascaris prime I guess, since that apparently exists

[thick yacht]

I don’t think it’s ever said explicitly, yeah.

but a lot can be inferred about a child combat veteran with PTSD, including how they kill.

At the least it’s complete and utter desensitization.

[tall echo]

Yes

[thick yacht]

Drifter seems to be a an aversion to killing

Unless necessary

[smoky solstice]

I think desensitization is what it's supposed to be implying, yeah, I mean how else do you live with yourself while doing all of that

[next mica]

drifter know how dying feel tbf

I mean, operator kinda does to but not at that scale

[lean garden]

the operator wouldnt have known then lololol

[tall echo]

Yes

[white goblet]

was uriel taken over by the ascaris? I think the ascaris LOCKS an operator inside their frame, while uriel just didnt have an operator

[lean garden]

most if not all of roathes men were turned into uriels to be loosed onto the battlefield

[tall echo]

.

[smoky solstice]

I mean the thing is, isn't the ascaris prime how galastra commandeered the warframes? because if so, why would sealing an operator inside a frame make it do galastra's bidding

[tall echo]

Ascaris allows remote control

[next mica]

oh yeah you're right we do see frame without operator during old peace

[smoky solstice]

oh that's right

[tall echo]

Operator or not

[cloud igloo]

who says its willing

[smoky solstice]

so trap operator + remote control

[next mica]

or something else that was not disclosed yet

[thick yacht]

Here’s a good one

[smoky solstice]

hell of a move, imagine just watching yourself doing stuff that is in complete conflict with what you want

[tall echo]

It's slightly implied that the commandeered operators are dead

[next mica]

well we got that with umbra 🥲

[thick yacht]

Is Ballas the worst Orokin, or simply one that was high ranking enough to do what he wanted and thus cause real damage

[smoky solstice]

yeah...

[cloud igloo]

both

[next mica]

both

[cloud igloo]

he is the worst because he used his position to do, well, everything

[tall echo]

WELL roach says he's far from the worst

[white goblet]

The operators are essential for warframes to operate, its only through their void spark that the warframes function, so i think the operators aare locked in there

[smoky solstice]

idk all of them sounds like really bad, I think he might be implied to be more sophisticated than the rest? or maybe just more strategic

[tall echo]

Nope

[smoky solstice]

maybe creative

[thick yacht]

Operators can cut transference if they need to

It’s shown in the war within

[smoky solstice]

basically I think he might just have more capacity to do insane stuff that the other executors simply don't have the ability or foresight to enact

[next mica]

that's possible too, the intro site was talking about something who was melting operator and frames into one entity

[white goblet]

besides, the game makes it sound like youre killing your friends when fighting the vanguard

[smoky solstice]

I mean ballas thinks of some insane ways to traumatize people

[white goblet]

and then the warframes...... stop moving

[tall echo]

Operators aren't necessary for frames to work

[smoky solstice]

oh so they're locked and that makes the warframes able to be controlled, like the operators are used for that function

[smoky solstice]

but yeah there's also like the "transference bolt" ballas uses on umbra

[tall echo]

Because ours are made inert

[smoky solstice]

for instance

[cloud igloo]

maybe like what happens when someone gets turned into a warframe where the suit retains "muscle memory"
the primes retain the muscle memory of their operators. enough to trigger a "i recognize you" reflex?

[smoky solstice]

idk if the transference bolt is ever explained in detail outside of the sacrifice

[tall echo]

Operators are needed for frames to be controllable

[smoky solstice]

but it does seem to be a way for non-operators to control warframes, and I guess people too now that I think about it

[white goblet]

oh thats fair enough, i guess we need to draw distinction between the first warframes and the modern inert ones

[smoky solstice]

umbra wasn't fully turned before ballas was controlling his movements and telepathically speaking to him

[cloud igloo]

was he controlling or was the infection taking over his insticnts cause i think the quest is hinting at the latter

[silk atlas]

There is no real difference, the first ones would just act like the "inert" ones after calmed.

[smoky solstice]

why would his instincts be to kill his son or a dax soldier

[thick yacht]

Ballas loves just straight up lying

[tall echo]

All frames only channel ambient void energy pumped into realspace by the heart of deimos

[cloud igloo]

infection instincts mate

[thick yacht]

Mfw Roathe and Entrati

[white goblet]

no, umbra has been calmed and still acts after being calmed

[smoky solstice]

yeah but what you're implying is that the infection causes you to want to just kill everyone, so why not ballas at that point too

[tall echo]

Umbra is extremely unique

[fast dew]

Nihil too

[next mica]

cause he was still a dax I guess

[smoky solstice]

and how did this not shut down the warframes as an idea before they were taken to combat

[next mica]

and he couldnt kill an orokin no matter what

[silk atlas]

Because that was him having a special Transference Bolt, and you also all the Warframes are from the Old War anyway, we just have to recraft them.

[fast dew]

Can't kill a orokin. Can kill his son.

[tall echo]

They seemed controllable

[cloud igloo]

maybe something like their "control" over dax?

[next mica]

I mean we're talking about the same people that nuked the entirety of deimos, they dont really care about collaterals

[smoky solstice]

so "wants to kill his son by himself with no encouragement from me" made the orokin think "yeah, these guys seem controllable"?

[white goblet]

we craft them from base materials we find everywhere though?? so no they cant be the same ones from the old war

[tall echo]

Aight, too much for me now, good luck everyone smort

[fast dew]

And uh

[silk atlas]

Like, Jade survived all the way into the modern day, died, and then we recrafted her and boom, she's also "inert."

[smoky solstice]

but the collateral is why the warframes were shut down before the tenno came into play

[tall echo]

Umbra was like. WAY after

[fast dew]

Yeah
The infestation wants to murder everyone

[cloud igloo]

umbra's case was that he was the first "live infestation" iirc no?

[tall echo]

No

[fast dew]

No? Umbra comes after the old peace

[white goblet]

no, all of the first warframes were alive when exposed to helminth

[silk atlas]

The crafting from the Foundry makes an exact replica of the thing, that's why Umbra goes mad and lashes out on us from straight we remake him.

[next mica]

wasnt it because they were not efficient enough since they couldnt be controled and were basicly mass destruction weapon wich orokin didnt needed since they had plenty?

[smoky solstice]

idk, I just felt like it was heavily implied through the transference bolt thing. And wait, yeah, ballas 100% made umbra do it, because there's also the komi thing, it shows us, we try to make one move, ballas forces us to make a garbage move that loses us the game

[silk atlas]

All the Warframes are just people with Helminth Infestation, he's not special in that regard.

[smoky solstice]

the cutscene before the final one where he kills isaah

[white goblet]

huh. I just assumed that we made him with parts we found at his death site, which is why hes so easy to craft

[smoky solstice]

so ballas was definitely controlling umbra there, he had to be

[silk atlas]

Nah, Ordis just "replicated the blueprint" and the resources are just gameplay.

[smoky solstice]

yet umbra was operatorless, not even a full warframe yet, seemingly just like almost transformed

[sly pagoda]

Umbra is special because Ballas kept him completely aware of everything specifically for the cruelty.

[white goblet]

I also had a theory that modern warframes are made from... hunks of flesh. We defend crypods with braindead humans that we turn into warframes when we need to. Because these humans were never alive, the warframes are inert

[cloud igloo]

oh right yerah thats what i meant. Aware during the infection. (its 3 am imma use that as an excuse)

[fast dew]

I like that idea

[smoky solstice]

what I'm saying is that ballas forced him to do it, he wasn't just there to make him infested, which by itself made umbra commit murder. Ballas made umbra kill his own son, he didn't just let the infestation do its job in regards to that

[silk atlas]

Nah, the way to develop new Warframes like that was lost afaik. The Foundry is assisted by the Helminth in the ship in order to be able to print biological stuff like the Warframes and Infested weapons.

[cloud igloo]

i mean hey you need something to "cultivate" the helminth on

[white goblet]

thats what im sayin ^

[tall echo]

We do not use humans, that is confirmed

[white goblet]

theyre not alive tho, where is it confirmed? wording is important

[silk atlas]

Who is "they" in this

Because... All the Warframes are alive... that's like their thing

[white goblet]

they meaning the cryopod people. I see it as they were grown like the invincible mauler twins

[white goblet]

their thing is that theyre made of organic matter, where does it say theyre specifically alive?

[sly pagoda]

The frames we use in current time are replicas basically. They are not soylent, in simple terms modern tenno use ethically sourced warframes.

[white goblet]

plus, i also like my explanation cause it explains what exactly those cryopods are LMAO

[silk atlas]

Why wouldn't it be alive if it's made of organic matter?

[sly pagoda]

Or so we have been told so far. Though we have never found out what happens to capture targets. 😉

[next mica]

digitalised for informations 😄

[silk atlas]

The original Warframes are made of humans and Infested stuff.
The Foundry ones we make are exact replicas of the originals.
Ergo, the Warframes are alive.

[white goblet]

??? kill a dude, theyre dead but their body is made of organic matter. and you cant convince me that we dont have the tech to clone organic matter without actually making life

[white goblet]

then why do only original warframes move independently of their operator?

[proper barn]

Okay infestation itself is alive. Also if they weren't our Umbra copy wouldn't attack us.

[white goblet]

fair, i still feel like umbra isnt a copy, but ig thats just an agree to disagree thing

[cloud igloo]

doesnt all of that ^ hinge on how "perfect" the foundry copies things?

[proper barn]

Also

[silk atlas]

Because it's some stupid gameplay mechanic that people always try to tie into the narrative when in reality is DE being to afraid of the people who hate the Umbra mechanic trying to kill itself to introduce it to the other frames. You see them moving without your input in Umbra, and what would be the differences of making organic matter "without making life"? The Orokin here have been making sentient life do its bidding with the flesh walls they have installed.

[silk atlas]

He is a copy, we just fully reconstructed him and nothing from his regular body survived.

[proper barn]

In the Drifter Kim conversations it's said the animations for warframes are like whats left of their personalities doing movements. @white goblet @sly pagoda

[white goblet]

ah thats fair, ,i do remember that convo

[proper barn]

Also the whole thing at the end of the sacrifice is like talking about why like only the tenno control warframes.

[cloud igloo]

we "control" warframes through the power of empathy lol

[white goblet]

we are able to control the warframes through the void, we succeed because of empathy

[cloud igloo]

fitting seeing how the void works Surprisingly like Dynamis from ffxiv

[silk atlas]

Yeah it's really weird because they just do absolutely nothing in gameplay but they very much have their own autonomy and doing crazy stuff when not being piloted from other places.

[cloud igloo]

i still dont think all present / modern frames have actual full autonomy (beyond gameplay, i mean)

i dont know why the frames act on their own in the quests...

[silk atlas]

Because that's just a thing they do. The present Warframes are the exact same thing as the original, and hell, we even get Prime blueprints from Relics

The blueprints themselves are Relics

[brittle siren]

Also, does the Old Peace confirm that multiple Tenno died before our OP came? S

[next mica]

the "history of tau" site kinda does yeah

[cloud igloo]

^

or got "unified into their frames" whatever that means

[brittle siren]

I mean Margulis has not yet used Transference and Warframe then seemingly can't revive, instead, they were used as a weapon for the opposite side after death

[next mica]

they got unified, then got scrapped out by orokin 🥲

[silk atlas]

Kids have died on the Zariman too, Cavalero mentioned "having more dead kids" on it if he wasn't a jerkweed about doing his way.

[lean garden]

alot of highly questionable statements lol

[next mica]

but did they die before or after becoming tenno tho?

[brittle siren]

Yeah, but that was direct death. In this case, if Warframe dies Tenno die too

[silk atlas]

...Crap, right.

[lean garden]

transference was a thing before it was part of the warframe project lmao

[silk atlas]

Never specified I don't think

[next mica]

ah 🥲

[brittle siren]

Margulis hasn't used it until the end of Old Peace, iirc

Since voices of Wally still in our head

[lean garden]

you are recalling wrongly

[lean garden]

transference is literally in use every time you step into a warframe

[silk atlas]

"They blasted him to ash" suggest after.

[brittle siren]

It adds up though: Tenno die when Warframe dies. But after Margulis put us to sleep and connect Warframe from afar (aka from Lua), fewer Tenno died

So what I mean is the tech that Margulis use for “Second Dream”, not the actual Tranference

[lean garden]

thats not how that worked what

[smoky solstice]

woah wait

roathe just said something crazy that relates directly to something said a bit earlier, wtf

[fast dew]

Hm?

Is it about the helminth?

[next mica]

there'sno mention of dead children past that tho

[fast dew]

There's dead children.

Cavalero says such

[next mica]

yeah but not during the conv talking about being blasted off 🥲

[smoky solstice]

basically, Ballas just seemed like a pretty bad executor but not the worst. Also, interesting how he says the Orokin were salvageable and it was only the Executors who had to go

[lean garden]

tenno died when they were trapped in their warframes, tranferring from lua doesnt change that

[fast dew]

Tbf Roathe wasnt around for narmer and the worst part of ballas

Only experienced when Ballas was somewhat normal

[smoky solstice]

also, I'm assuming this was revealed before, but apparently the hierarchy was Archimedeans < Orokin < Executors, I always thought that Archimedeans were like distinguished and therefore above in the social hierarchy compared to the Orokin

[brittle siren]

Let's go through each point one by one

The Transference before the end of Old Peace is used directly on Warframe, which means the Tenno can be awake and still able to control them. Am I right here, or are there any mistakes?

[strange turtle]

Wait we got confirmation on that?

[smoky solstice]

I mean he says that but it also sounds like the Executors were really all just the worst

[strange turtle]

Wait no nvm I misread that completely

I should probabgl sleep

[fast dew]

They are high in the social hierarchy, yes. Close enough to allow Loid (who was trained specifically to help Archimedians), to help a orokin scientist

[brittle siren]

But the method Margulis uses helps us transfer without “teleport” inside the Warframe no?

[lean garden]

For you, yes

[fast dew]

Albeit a disgraced one

[lean garden]

wrong

[copper mountain]

Correct; archimedean is the rank of esteem granted to non-Orokin scholars. As non-Orokin, they are beneath them though.

[strange turtle]

Granted to Orokin and non-Orokin

[brittle siren]

But we are still in the pod while controlling warframe though (in the quest Second Dream)

[fast dew]

It seems a orokin can be a Archimedian, but the title will not overwrite the title of orokin

[lean garden]

your body is, your mind isnt

[strange turtle]

Kaelli was able to apply to the college

Got rejected, but it was only on an unspecified technicality

[lean garden]

at no point of transference are you physically in your warframe

[copper mountain]

Do we know of any full Orokin archimedeans?
You mentioning it does make me remember an example but I can't think of it from the top of my head

[lean garden]

euleria?

[fast dew]

Albrecht has the crown thing seen with yonta, so we can assume he is one

[smoky solstice]

anyway yeah, I find it kinda crazy that Roathe is providing all of this crazy Orokin lore just every day as if he had nothing better to do

[fast dew]

Unsure on that one

[brittle siren]

Yeah but that's the difference

Before Old Peace, we transfer the whole body in without a place to anchor our body.

[silk atlas]

...he doesn't lmao

[brittle siren]

We see our OP doing that the whole quest

[fast dew]

He misses electricity

I would too

[silk atlas]

He is stuck being babysat by the two priests in the cathedral lol

[lean garden]

Youre still not in it physically

the same radiation that trapped those tenno will still trap tenno if they were on kua

[fast dew]

Kua

[smoky solstice]

oh also this

[fast dew]

Kuva'd lua

[smoky solstice]

yeah I was being a bit sarcastic there lmao

[lean garden]

Im going to tranq you like a freaking kuaka

[steady shore]

is grandmother the original dagath???

[lean garden]

no

[next mica]

kinda like how queen tried to trap us inside the frame even tho we were on the orbitor

[steady shore]

🥀

[lean garden]

similar idea yea

[fast dew]

Do it please. That would be a nice sleep.

[steady shore]

she used to be named Dagath tho

[silk atlas]

She's not a Warframe lmao. She gave up her name for what is now called Dagath.

[silk atlas]

Yeah Dagath took her name

[tall echo]

Technically

[strange turtle]

Grandmother is the original person called Dagath, who gave the name to the original frame, who became Dagath

[silk atlas]

Nothing more than that.

[brittle siren]

Sure, but in that case, their body would still be “intact” on Lua.

In this case, both body and mind are vulnerable (since we would drop out of the frame after the Warframe “dead”)

[steady shore]

the cavalry woman

[lean garden]

if your mind dies you die

[smoky solstice]

anyway I'm thinking Nitokh may have actually been even worse than Ballas if Roathe is to be trusted here, I assume though that he's more of just like a warmonger type of destroy everything without even thinking about it, whereas Ballas is like a calculated type of psychopath

[fast dew]

Nitokh is a woman, and yeah, she's more physically destructive, which is what Roathe only seems to measure.

[lean garden]

roathe caveats that ballas after the stint in modern times would outclass the other executors

[fast dew]

Im not sure if Roathe is aware that Ballas was responsible for the betrayal

[pine orchid]

counterpoint, Arthur pulls Drifter out of his head in 1999?

[fast dew]

Nitokh btw :)

[lean garden]

counterpoint: you werent in there physically

[hazy prism]

If i can say something ....

[brittle siren]

Again I am still talking about the method of reduced dying too much from dropping out a frame

The chance of transferring a mind into a Warframe and dying is much lower than dropping directly out of the Warframe in the middle of a warzone, since someone like Lotus can disconnect us (most of the time)

[lean garden]

the tenno have this wonderful state where they can become incorporeal essensces

[fast dew]

Im glad we got more female orokin wear

[brittle siren]

My point is, the method of Transference before and after the treaty is different

[lean garden]

the tenno who we can confirm died on tau died because they were trapped in the frame

[pine orchid]

that sounds like physically being in there to me, like possession

[lean garden]

thats uh, not how physically works is it

like I wont find the tenno if I cut arthur open

[valid mesa]

Is possession really physical or is it actually more the "essence"

[lean garden]

it is quite in the literal sense, all in the mind

[smoky solstice]

oh mb on the gender

[brittle siren]

But where would our body be during the transference (pre-treaty ofc)

[pine orchid]

I understood the use of the word "physically" here as in our being is inside them regardless of whether ourselves are corporeal or incorporeal

[smoky solstice]

no, he just says that he hasn't experienced ballas in modern times and therefore isn't sure whether that would make him outclass the others. I think that's an important difference.

to some extent, like yeah, ballas did a lot so that could tip the scales

on the other hand, we haven't really seen Nitokh or the sheer destruction and misery she caused

at least not as intimately as we did with ballas

[fast dew]

As far as we know, it was just that. Death.

[copper mountain]

incorporeal? I've always read the post-War-Within (and now pre-Old-Peace) transference as being a form of possession wherein we turn into a spirit, possess the body of our subject, and then ride along with them like a ghost / in the void or something

[pine orchid]

was it confirmed this was Nitokh? There were 2 woman statues but there werent names to go with them...

[fast dew]

File names :)

[brittle siren]

Tbh Ballas only enslave and mostly not choose to kill unless necessary, so if we based on body count, he could be the most sane out of any Seven

[fast dew]

The other one is avantus or whatever her name is

[pine orchid]

oh it got datamined XD
is the round one actually karishh then?

[fast dew]

Yeah who else 😭

[pine orchid]

idk! maybe Karishh was the one with the beard and staff for all I know! I dont wanna judge a book's title by its cover XD

[fast dew]

Scarne, Tormis, Nitokh, Ballas, Avantus, Tuvul, Karrish...
-# + nihil

[brittle siren]

Yeah, but the different is pre-treaty, we go in directly in our frame (and atm), but after Old Peace we use “dreaming” method.

[fast dew]

I think thats scarne?

Tbf we didn't know that one or Tormis

Still, no childhood orokin clothes.

[pine orchid]

ooh, what about the left handed one? that one stood out to me

[fast dew]

The one thing i needed.

[fast dew]

Iirc thats Tormis lemme check

Yeah

[pine orchid]

baby Orokin, imagine we get Loid to make up with the family and they pull out the family album

[fast dew]

Tormis

[fast dew]

PLEASE. I SO DESPERATELY NEED TO KNOW WHAT CHILD OROKIN LOOK LIKE

[pine orchid]

nodders, thank you for entertaining my curiosity! Xd

[fast dew]

Hard to draw Loid interacting with the grandkids if we have no earthly clue on how they look as children

[pine orchid]

tiny and blue maybe? 😂
like blue Operator?

[fast dew]

Best we got is Duviri and they're missing whole ass arms

[fast dew]

Idek if they were blue or not 😭

Blue comes from a whole other process to kuva so maybe?

[pine orchid]

Blue seems to be fashion like the arms so idk maybe some of them are blued not long after birth, like how some girl babies are given pierced earrings

[fast dew]

True..

Which i hate. Let the children chose for themselves later on

[pine orchid]

why only blue too, where are the purple orokin. or pink. maybe they wanna be green! or red!

[next mica]

ever heard about "blue blood" ? 👀

[fast dew]

They can, if the refacia kits are to go off

[pine orchid]

as a result of poisoning? yes Xd /j

[strange plinth]

blue was fashionable at the time, so most of them were blue
our sample size is still incredibly small

[next mica]

as a sign of royalty

[pine orchid]

I know, I was joking
and ofc it wasn't literal for us, and I see your point

but still, surely at least some would be like moooom I dont wanna be blue! I like pink!!

[fast dew]

I will draw this as Euleria n Albrecht once i get a new pen

[smoky solstice]

wait is ass censored in this server

[copper mountain]

evidently not

[smoky solstice]

ok, because I just wanted to say, I'm watching marcomeatball play and he goes "EVERY TIME something nice happens in this story, stupid f*cking ball ass is right there dude", I just find that hilarious because that's the best way to put it

no idea if the ballas pronunciation was intentional or not but it's perfect

[strange plinth]

lots of people nickname him ball ass
whether they heard it from someone else or came up with it themselves (its not the biggest stretch of his regular name lol)

[stiff beacon]

tier 3 swears are fine tier 2 and above are banned

[smoky solstice]

yeah ik, but that crashout was just perfect

can I link youtube here? I forgot

let's give it a shot

[strange plinth]

prolly

[smoky solstice]

it's this timestamp https://youtu.be/GXMRnBZu7nA?si=YtWUd4ryAXg6XUuy&t=3005

[sly pagoda]

If we did not already terminate his living permit, i would say Ballas needs to be hit by a train.

[strange plinth]

incredible lmao

[strange turtle]

If only his corpse were still around, we could throw it into that trap Albrecht had in the labs

[torpid quiver]

I hate that i introduced my friend to warframe dude

He made a joke that old peace and devilman crybaby have a similar theme storywise and I can kinda see it

[smoky solstice]

what the hell is devilman crybaby

[next mica]

an anime based on the manga devilman

[torpid quiver]

it's a very good, but sad cry your eyes out ending anime

[smoky solstice]

wait this is on netflix?

[next mica]

netflix original yeah afaik

[torpid quiver]

yes its on netflix

[smoky solstice]

anyway he's kinda right

[torpid quiver]

there are OVA's from the 80s

[next mica]

but cant really see the similarity 🥲

[smoky solstice]

I can

[next mica]

except the revenge part

[torpid quiver]

"we were this close to peace and a good ending"

[smoky solstice]

it's like a few notes away from being right there, although I do prefer what deepest dark does

[fast dew]

I KNOW THAT ONE

[smoky solstice]

deepest dark is such a beautiful track

[fast dew]

There's. A song ive been absolutely listening the hell out of

From it

[next mica]

yeah but the demons and humans were never really in peace, in opposition of tau

[smoky solstice]

weirdly enough I consider deepest dark to be closer to the theme of the old peace than lullaby of the manifold

[next mica]

||human were not even aware of the existence of demon, and when they learned it they never offered peace||

[smoky solstice]

which is kinda weird to say, but I feel like a lot of the grandness but also desperation and tragedy imbued in deepest dark to be more of the vibe that the old peace carries throughout

[torpid quiver]

side note

||loid really is stepping up like a father figure for operator seemingly||

[smoky solstice]

idk if I should be clicking these spoilers, are these warframe spoilers or devilman spoilers

[torpid quiver]

for me it's wf

[next mica]

mine was devilman

no need for wf spoiler here 🥲

[torpid quiver]

oh i like being safe

[smoky solstice]

oh that's so true

[next mica]

the whole chan is a giant spoiler

[smoky solstice]

well apparently there's a difference in philosophy there

at least for newer content. Personally, I feel like if I'm worried about wf spoilers, I'm not touching this channel with a 10 ft pole, but others feel like there's people coming in here to ask questions about previous quests and may get spoiled about the new content that's been released recently accidentally

[torpid quiver]

I know we all hate ballas, but i just want to give his VA amazing credit for the tone he speaks with as ballas

it gives this energy of a step-dad you hate idk how else to describe it

[smoky solstice]

absolutely, he's amazing

ig there was that one awkward moment with reb that one time but it doesn't seem like that caused huge issues

[torpid quiver]

what?

[smoky solstice]

especially since he came back to VA for this quest

[smoky solstice]

it was barely something, just a bit of an awkward moment during a live thing lmao

[torpid quiver]

i wont dig

[strange plinth]

yea lore chat is kinda just. be aware of what the other people in chat have done. you won't spoil umbra if others haven't done the sacrifice, for example
spoiler chat is kinda anything goes, the warning is in the name

[smoky solstice]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxnvRtG9BL4&t=1848s it was this, I assume if rebb was deeply affected by this, there would've been more consequences, but you can draw your own conclusions

[torpid quiver]

Adis is very much the closest Operator had to a sibling

which is really sad for them

[smoky solstice]

yeah fair enough, if you see a newer player, it's like be a bit careful

but also, I just kinda openly come in here to talk about warframe quest stuff, even if it's new

and it feels like I mean there is a spoiler alert in the channel description

so if a newer player comes in in the middle of everything, it might accidentally reveal some stuff

although I do kinda fall under the DE mentality of they're likely not going to know what the hell is going on, especially if it's just text. I'm not as extreme as DE in this regard, since I think protoframes should definitely not be shown in the market before the Hex, but I understand why they show spoiler-ey stuff in their marketing material often

[lilac aspen]

||We do need a father figure in our life||

[strange plinth]

yea, can't stop someone newer from coming in during a conversation
and there's not much point in always being prepared for that, its kinda implied that there will be spoilers in here too

[lilac aspen]

Adis come back

[brittle siren]

Loid is the perfect candidate

[torpid quiver]

god the trauma of adis being the leader of the sentient hive mind

like a rebuilt adis

DE please dont do that to them 😭

[smoky solstice]

huh???

[torpid quiver]

in Tau

because we know some sentients are still in tau

and sentients can rebuild themselves, see paz

[smoky solstice]

well wouldn't a lot of sentients be in tau, like that's their stronghold now

[torpid quiver]

thats my point

[smoky solstice]

so you're saying adis is like the we used to be friends now we're enemies trope

[torpid quiver]

or...

[smoky solstice]

god that would be so sad

[torpid quiver]

not adis but a sentient using their shell

[smoky solstice]

but I don't think that's the case, since it feels like adis embedded himself in us

[smoky solstice]

like yeah, maybe this is more likely

[torpid quiver]

either or that'd be awful

[smoky solstice]

like idk what was implied by his light being with us now, but it does seem like part of the source of our operator abilities is adis

[torpid quiver]

probably idk

[smoky solstice]

like the quest kinda implies reviving is his doing

[torpid quiver]

but Adis' body is on tau, so who knows

i'm just tinfoil hatting

[smoky solstice]

the quest kinda makes me think, how much of our power is actually the adis, affected by the xenoflora, embedded himself in us and giving us further abilities

[smoky solstice]

I mean you might be cooking, all we know is he got buried there. Well, assuming Valdur isn't a complete ass, which I don't think he is, he probably did honor the operator's request

[strange plinth]

to add to the "tinfoil hatting"
consider: we gave our "light" to wally, we're unable to use revives throughout the old peace quest, adis gives us his "light", and we gain the ability to revive

[smoky solstice]

what happens if you die during the uriel segment (somehow)

[strange plinth]

unsure

[torpid quiver]

So wally stole our light as a price of the transaction, and adis gave us his

[smoky solstice]

can you even die there or are the grineer + sentients harmless

[knotty agate]

does anyone have an updated lore timeline

[strange plinth]

i'd imagine you can die there if you let it happen
but i've not seen or heard anyone do it yet
and we won't be able to replay for another few months, probably

[smoky solstice]

because idk if we gain the ability to revive or if that's just a visual indicator to say "hey you know that whole reviving deal? well thus far it hasn't been explained but turns out, it was all adis"

[smoky solstice]

I don't know if this quest changes too much in that regard

[torpid quiver]

pre-orokin era, orokin era, zariman, 1st half of the human sentient war, old peace, old war ending and likely umbra is made, orokin fall, bunch of crap, our tenno wakes up and so on

[strange plinth]

tmk, this is fairly accurate (others please correct if i'm wrong)
doesn't include 'current' events though

[smoky solstice]

it was post zariman incident, before margulis' death, after the old war started, it's kinda just the middle of the old war where there was a temporary peace

[torpid quiver]

Okay, why TF were margulis' eyes GONE?!?

[knotty agate]

yeah that’s what I thought I’m just trying to get it around my head😭

[torpid quiver]

it legit disturbed me

[humble sierra]

XX99
??
1999
???
??
?
Orokin
Void
Tau
Zariman
Sentients
Old War
Zariman comes back
Old Peace
Old War again
Night of the Naga Drums
Big sleep
????
Awakening
The rest of the game

[strange plinth]

a tenno burned them out, on accident
biggest contenders are us or rell

[fast dew]

One of the tenno, maybe rell, blasted them out.

[torpid quiver]

10 bucks on rell?

[humble sierra]

A Tenno burnt them out. Likely Rell, more likely specifically us

[knotty agate]

i think mara/rell/random tenno

[smoky solstice]

we blinded margulis, that was revealed before but I honestly didn't catch it until this quest either, I thought all the pre-release eyeless margulis imagery was just spooky stuff

[fast dew]

Why do you think its Rell?

[fast dew]

Mara doesn't exist.

[torpid quiver]

Rell scares me

[smoky solstice]

it could be why she shunned him

[knotty agate]

i mean us the player character

[low girder]

I just played the old peace and I have a few questions
How did ballas use the tenno? And was the point of the quest to fill in some story of how we got put to sleep, leading to it

[torpid quiver]

I don't think operator has a canon name???

[fast dew]

Mara is a placeholder name, and a voidtongue word that might mean Child or Demon

[smoky solstice]

and his neurodivergence might have been the cause for him acting so aggressively upon being discovered, some sort of overstimulation causing a fight or flight response maybe? but idk if I'd like that since it implies autistic people are more dangerous or something

[knotty agate]

no but de calls them mara

[fast dew]

As an autistic person, nah, its more likely to be a trauma reaction

[torpid quiver]

mara lohk is a word meaning void child (maybe)

[smoky solstice]

it could also just mean person

[knotty agate]

yeah that’s why people call them mara 😭

[fast dew]

Unlikely

[humble sierra]

We were led to believe we were going to a Worldseeder to blow it up, but we actually activated the terraforming sequence, making the atmosphere safe for the Orokin but destroying the flowers that allowed the Sentients to be "sentient", so with them becoming mindless hiveminders, the war restarts

[smoky solstice]

so mara lohk is like void person, it sounds bad in english, but I just mean that it's referring to an individual, not that the words are 1-to-1

[fast dew]

Its not used in any way that doesn't refer to us specifically

[smoky solstice]

and not just a child

[strange plinth]

in internal scripts, yes, but its not an official title

[fast dew]

So, chances are its child over person

[smoky solstice]

yeah but wally may not see us as a "child", I mean why would it even have a concept of maturity

ig he does say kiddo

[humble sierra]

Yeah but Lotus and the Cavia also call us Mara

[smoky solstice]

but it sounds like he picked that up from our father

[fast dew]

Wally has a full concept of maturity? Why wouldn't he?

[humble sierra]

He uses childhood nicknames, he called Albrecht Litte Bengal

[strange plinth]

he gave us powers, he is of the void, we are, indirectly, children of the void

[fast dew]

His memories are likely built on Albrecht's

[smoky solstice]

so idk, it feels like it could be child, but it also feels like it could just be something he says as a way to say that we are a being of the void

[fast dew]

He also specifically splits children from their parents

[smoky solstice]

I don't mind it being child, I just think that it's not necessarily child

[smoky solstice]

that's true

[knotty agate]

yeah ik but colloquially known as mara

[fast dew]

I personally align more to the demon aspect

"Void demon" can explain why the cavia will use it

Mara lohk mara lohk...

[knotty agate]

i am partial to void demon

[smoky solstice]

but wouldn't they use it too if it was just the voidtongue way to refer to the operator? which could mean void child, void demon, simply referring to a being of the void without carrying any connotations of age or whatever else

[low girder]

Why did ballas want to have another war?

[fast dew]

Little bengel, not bengal. Bengal is a cat, Bengel is german for rascal.

[humble sierra]

Ah, ty

[strange plinth]

my biggest issue with "mara" being "demon" is that the cavia use it, and they have no reason to. our relationship with them is neutral at worst, yet demon would be almost an insult?

[smoky solstice]

that's why it'sa bit difficult, like we know mara lohk refers to us, and that the lohk part means void, I'm just not sure if mara is supposed to mean child or somethign else

[knotty agate]

the orokin in general wanted war because they didn’t want to give tau to the sentients

[humble sierra]

So he had a reason to wipe out the Sentients and have Tau for the Orokin alone

[fast dew]

Using it at the murmur instead of us :)

[fast dew]

No worries :)

Just more proof that the germans lived through the radwars somehow

[strange plinth]

assassination mission extraction dialogue is directed at us, and its used there

[fast dew]

Oh. Shit.

[humble sierra]

The Lotus Eaters track, heavily implied to be sung by Lotus herself, has the lyrics "Ilve Ilve Mara", as well as "Amare Jeliira" (and we know Jeliira means heart)

Since Lotus frequently calls us her child it makes sense for her to be saying "child" there

Of course there's no confirmation that she's the one singing the song at all since it's in void tongue

Her singing that the quest refers to could just be the humming of the melody that plays when initially approaching

[fast dew]

Nodding nodding

[smoky solstice]

oh this is also interesting

roathe claims this to be the reason for the sentient aggression

at least I think that's what he's implying, whereas in the sacrifice ballas implies it's because they knew the orokin would ruin tau as they did the origin system

and this says that it was more of a design error, they were told to evolve to make themselves better and more efficient to do the orokin's work, but eventually evolution meant surpassing the orokin and replacing them

[stiff beacon]

maybe the ballas angle is hunhows motivation whilst what roathe is saying is a sentient like the POE sentient and its offspring

[lilac aspen]

It
Makes sense Ngl

You gave an AI the program to evolve, they’re going to evolve

[stiff beacon]

motivation

[smoky solstice]

I mean

all the sentient are a hivemind, just a different type to the infestation

so hunhow's motivation is the motivation of the sentients

only the xenoflora introduced division, but ballas got rid of that

[stiff beacon]

though seemingly after hunhow and his childern gained individuality permanently

[smoky solstice]

although, this is talking about events before the old peace and therefore the xenoflora presumably were still there. Maybe the sentients hadn't started consuming it yet, or maybe this was just the goal of the majority

I'm not very clear on the pre-old peace old war and why it even happened if the xenoflora was there from the beginning

and introduced sentience to the sentients immediately

[lilac aspen]

“Hey, Sentients, here’s the power to evolve and improve.”
“Okay!” Evolves to the extent they realize they can do better than the Orokin “Hey, wait a minute…”

[smoky solstice]

so perhaps the xenoflora sentience came a bit later

[stiff beacon]

well yea cause they look like a byproduct of the world seeders

[smoky solstice]

idk, I mean anything I can think of is speculation and maybe it's just not that important

or roathe will reveal more as time goes on

so far he's been giving us the entire lore of the start of the old war

meaning this has to have a climax

[thick yacht]

Didn’t Roathe betray the Empire

[stiff beacon]

yea kinda

[thick yacht]

Actually both him and Executor Nitokh

Why were they not executed for high treason

[smoky solstice]

idk, he helped Nitokh, idk if that means betraying the Empire, since he was doing the bidding of an Executor

isn't that what you're supposed to do

[stiff beacon]

well he clearly got black bagged

[thick yacht]

Nitokh still answers to the Emperors

[strange plinth]

the seven do whatever they want ig

• it seems like multiple executors were keeping the war alive

[smoky solstice]

well Ballas wanted war, plus the vote needed to be unanimous and clearly Nitokh had allies in the council

[thick yacht]

Which Roathe confirms exist and are above the Seven

[smoky solstice]

since the vote was split and Ballas was the decider

[smoky solstice]

the Emperors are nothing though

[thick yacht]

You’d think the Emperors would intervene to stop the bullshit going on in the council

[strange plinth]

Roathe also confirms they're more focused on living their lives of luxury than actually managing anything

[smoky solstice]

the Executors are the real rulers

[stiff beacon]

and which the 7 work for in basically name only

[thick yacht]

🗿

[smoky solstice]

they're in stasis doing nothing

idk where the stasis thing comes from, someone here said they are, but Roathe has pretty much stated that they do nothing

[thick yacht]

Orokin just love being decadent and lazy huh

[strange plinth]

yep

[thick yacht]

🗿

[strange plinth]

tbh the emperors would probably be on Nitokh/Ballas's side, as they apparently sat up from their positions when the prospect of actual war with the sentients became a thing

[smoky solstice]

this confirms that the emperors were just doing nothing to me, although I assume there's a lot more evidence than just this

[pine orchid]

sounds to me like the equivalent of having kings and queens but most of the goverment is run by parliament

[smoky solstice]

oh I think there was a mention yeah of the emperors being awakened by an actual conflict

[strange plinth]

"When the Sentients attacked, we knew a unity long denied to us. The Dax drew their swords against something other than an insolent peasant or a larcenous trader
The Emperors, the deathless titular rulers of the Empire whose power was vested in the Executors, lurched awake on their dusty golden thrones."

[stiff beacon]

man the emperors do be soundin like necrons

[smoky solstice]

sorta, although in the UK for instance, it was more just political philosophy making it pretty much impossible to sustain an undemocratic rule, the monarchs kinda had to give up enough power to where now they're moreso just figureheads since parliament has the power to get rid of them if they want, not to mention all the conflicts regarding this subject.

for the Orokin, clearly the Seven retain a sort of monarchical rule, not only do they not answer to any authority that is not the rest of the Seven, but their rule has no grounding, there is no philosophy that grounds their rule, even questioning these things and asking why they have the right to rule is forbidden. So I think it's more that the Executors usurped this power and I guess the Emperors didn't have much of an incentive to resist this.

like irl, even when the UK monarchs did have actual rule, there was stuff like the Leviathan, political philosophy that said hey, this is why they should have the right

for the Orokin, there is nothing like that, because if there was some sort of philosophy around it, then their right to rule could be challenged by challenging the premises by which that right exists

instead the rule of the Seven is just kind of like a reality of life, it's not something you question, it's not something you think about, it's just the way things are and it can't be changed, they rule and there's no reality where they don't

I ground all this in literally that one Zariman Tablet in Duviri where this exact question is asked in the quiz, like what's the basis for the Orokin's rule

and one of the answers is an actual answer, which is wrong, and the other is just "This is a Forbidden Question" and that's the correct answer, because there is no basis to this, it's just the way things are

I'm assuming there's other explicit stuff like this in the lore to ground this further though

[brittle siren]

I wonder if the Emperors has more important role in the beginning of the Orokin Empire

[pine orchid]

I mean that tablet to me just sounds like Orokin rule in general, as in why are Orokin better than the rest of humanity rather than specifically the Seven

[thick yacht]

Why did no one ever try to resist the orokin on a serious scale

[tall echo]

Oh people regularly did

[brittle siren]

and either they get jaded, or glassed, or become warframe

[strange plinth]

parvos did, sorta
just took the diplomatic route rather than the warring one, and that's why he succeeded

[tall echo]

Thing is, no resistance stays for long when there's an army of elite soldiers who physically can not reject an order

[brittle siren]

that make me wonder, does the "rebel" in old peace is Ballas troop?

I don't remember their actual faction name

[tall echo]

They're ordered by one of the new name dropped orokin

Anarchs

[brittle siren]

oh that make sense
what is her purpose? just killing for fun?

[pine orchid]

Executor Nitokh I think was the one

[strange plinth]

yea, anarchs are at the very least supplied by Nitokh
i wouldn't be surprised if ballas was also involved, though, given he was on that transport

[tall echo]

Kinda, yes

[pine orchid]

and sounds like it? there's a Roathe message that implies as much

[tall echo]

Nitokh liked violence a lot

[brittle siren]

so she does not even care what would Truth Bloom do

[thick yacht]

So it was impossible to overthrow the Orokin empire short of doing what the Tenno did and slaughtering most of their leadership at once and decapitating the regime

[tall echo]

The intent was to cause war to restart

[tall echo]

Yes

[brittle siren]

and Ballas just help her by killing all the flower?

[tall echo]

Yes

[thick yacht]

What even did we do truly? Was it just that we killed most of the leadership on the night itself and then went across the system slaughtering any orokin we came across?

[strange plinth]

Karishh was killed by Grendel shortly after the night of naga drums, Tuvul was killed by Voruna either during or shortly after
Avantus is after, i believe, killed by some grineer
Ballas survived
other 3 unknown

[tall echo]

Pretty much

[strange plinth]

can also point to grendel's leverian for "we only killed the orokin and left standard citizens alone"

[tall echo]

The key was isolating them and killing them quickly, preventing their continuity

[thick yacht]

If the Entrati family had not escaped into the Void during the Collapse and the Tenno found them, would they have been killed as well?