lore-discussion

[silk atlas]

There aren't multiple in the sense they're separate versions of him, they're all just the one guy with multiple "bodies"

[tight plank]

BTW did anyone here kill Daklek?

[silk atlas]

I didn't

[lean garden]

I didnt get the chance

[wise quiver]

Yeast brought up a good point about wally referring to themselves as a "we"

[lean garden]

dude keeled over in 2 hits

didnt even have time to react

[silk atlas]

I wasn't using my super best gear (Which were still all Incarnon guns lol)

[lean garden]

eh?

oh you can replay that part in the memory game?

[tight plank]

Ballas I don't doubt but where did you find out Niktoh was one?

[lean garden]

eh?

[wise quiver]

In the final moments, uh...the ceremony.

[lean garden]

its like, a central plot moment

[wise quiver]

When you're basically married to Adis.

[velvet cradle]

May have they them pronouns lol

[silk atlas]

Wait I thought you got your normal gear when you were fighting the Commandeered Warframes? Am I misremembering?

[lean garden]

like you literally evesdrop on ballas

[leaden parrot]

i know i'm spoiling the mission, but c'mon

[lean garden]

and itzam talks to ballas about niktoh

[drifting narwhal]

Wasn't there only a few statues of the executors in the quest?

[lean garden]

what like 7 of them?

[velvet cradle]

You were told via dialogue in some of the missions

Nikotoh is also the one that has Uriel as their personal frame

[slate rapids]

not in the quest itself unless there was a secret way to get it

[drifting narwhal]

There was less than 7

[silk atlas]

Okay then nvm

[lean garden]

you bothered to walk around slowly around the whole corridor?

[leaden parrot]

suddenly... irish? scottish?

[drifting narwhal]

Yeah

[wise quiver]

I still wish I could find where it's mentioned about the emperor(s) who are in stasis so they don't breath the same air as the poor people.

[drifting narwhal]

Swear I only seen Tuval, ballas the big guy and the female

[lean garden]

eh? I can confirm at least 5 statues

3 male 2 female

[leaden parrot]

wally singing in the background while the rebels attack palanquin, hmmmmm...

[daring wave]

Yeah i saw 5

[misty salmon]

I saw three unique execs + ballas on each side of the main entry room, for a full set of the seven.

[lean garden]

the other 2 alleged statues are simply too far down the corridor for me to bother

[daring wave]

I was in shock to see margulis without her eyes I wasn't sure if what happened to her eyes with rell was real

[silk atlas]

It was never mentioned to be Rell specifically who did that

[daring wave]

I thought that why she cast him out

[silk atlas]

No it was just because he was weird (autistic)

[misty salmon]

guessing the fat man is the one Grendel ate, one of the ladies is the one that got grineered,

[daring wave]

Oh lol

[wise quiver]

I thought it was because he refused to dismiss the voices.

[lean garden]

she was blind, but its not really certain that he was the one who blinded her

[lean garden]

nothing of the sort was suggested really

[heavy schooner]

Are we certain that's actually Margulis?

[lean garden]

if anything it was critical that rell actually listened

[silk atlas]

What reason would there be for it not to be her?

[daring wave]

Still im happy we got to see and talk to her for the first time in game and even see the moment she put us in the long sleep i waited for that for so long

[wise quiver]

Yeah, it's not the mimic/lotus, not at this point.

[lean garden]

fairly certain yea

[heavy schooner]

I dunno, she was talking about Lua.

[wise quiver]

Lotus comes after margulis death, and this is the events that lead up to margulis' death.

[silk atlas]

Nope, not even that. afaik Margulis wasn't aware of the MITW because of how out of the loop Lotus was from it.

[daring wave]

Bruh that's not blind she had no eyes like someone took them out completely and left 2 holes

[silk atlas]

Yeah, it's a place that you can go to and it's not in the Void yet.

[wise quiver]

Yeah, they both treated it as uh...some weird void...affliction thing, like alzheimers for void kids.

[lean garden]

I mean... that does lead to blindness so

[daring wave]

Its her i saw in the subtitles it said her plus it cant be anything else

[wise quiver]

And I thought Rell got banished because he refused to believe that, and that wally was real.

[daring wave]

Bruh 😂 fair

[heavy schooner]

Maybe I'm misremembering but I thought Margulis' execution came before the Tenno were weaponized.

[daring wave]

No after she put us in the long sleep

[leaden parrot]

IT'S DUCKING BALLAS!!!???

[wise quiver]

I t hought so to, but the silver grove does say she was alive during the warframe project.

[daring wave]

I wanted to hurt his so badly

[dawn shoal]

i almost did that, but ended up not using madurai abilities at all and instead was there long enough for the line because the last time i used transference (in the ||protea fight|| i got ||teleported from the zariman 5-9 tile to the middle of the entrati labs tile from nearer the end of the mission the moment i transferred out because i guess the game thought that was where i was supposed to be? XD ) ||

[tight plank]

Ack I have been away from Warframe for to long. I forgot that Executor was the ranks the Seven held. My mind must have relapsed to the old Orokin emperors title instead and Margulis does actually say its with the backing in the screenshots I took.

Things makes more sense now. A bit though.

[silk atlas]

Nope, she just always brushed it off and it was because Rell was "weird"

[tight plank]

Also anyone else like the Amar cameo?

We got to see him pre-archon state.

[wise quiver]

There is so many questions now

It's amazing how warframe can give us information, that leaves us with so many more questions.

[dawn shoal]

i loved ||pre-archon amar,|| erra did him dirty and the best boy deserved better

[copper mountain]

I was hoping for exactly such a cameo; feels really good to see the real him

[cloud igloo]

mnakes me wish for cameos of the other 2

[daring wave]

True but the one i want to ask most is will we get to see the night we killed all the orokin now that we dive into the past

[daring wave]

True 😂

No lore frame

[dawn shoal]

perhaps if we find ||another sentient like adis|| we can heal him and the other archons, that would be cool

[tight plank]

The wording in that ceremony could definitely have been better. It sounded like a wedding.

[wise quiver]

Also, anyone else weirded out by how...fangirl/boy the operator is when doing the 'protect the executor' thing?

[silk atlas]

Me when indoctrination by a authoritarian regime.

[daring wave]

?

[cloud igloo]

indoctrination is a hell of a drug

[wise quiver]

It's a small moment admittedly, but hearing them be excited over "It's an executor!" like, genuine excitement

[woven estuary]

At that point they're basically in front of like, a king or god figure

[drifting narwhal]

This will be absolute cinema If it happens

[woven estuary]

They hadn't had the moment of "oh the Orokin are bastards actually" yet

[dawn shoal]

i feel like it was supposed to carry equal vibes of a graduation and some sort of officially binding warrior-pair joining a la a wedding, probably related to the way the Sentients think of something in their culture(s) that never got explained here? 🤔

[daring wave]

I want to see it so badly i need to see it i cant die before i see it

[wise quiver]

It was my understanding that the tenno were...consistently aware of how shitty the orokin were because A: the orokin clearly didn't care for them as we have seen. B: they've been on the frontlines of a war, they've seen the messed up stuff going on yeah?

[drifting narwhal]

Maybe within the decade

[dawn shoal]

they were definitely hoping it was anyone but ballas 😭

[leaden parrot]

i know this was probably intentional, since the memories are corrupted, but i don't think these grineer are standing where they should be

[daring wave]

Did anyone notice how the sentient guy turned rude when he boarded the ship before he died ?

[silk atlas]

They clearly weren't in the know about everything, considering how bad the player Operator took the trick from Ballas

[daring wave]

Corrupted how ?

[woven estuary]

I mean they were very much DEEP in the propoganda that the Orokin were "The Golden Masters" at that point. Like "I'll keep fighting their war instead of turning on them when I get an open opportunity to" kind of deep

[dawn shoal]

uhh not really i gotta go back and look, i was too busy thinking about how likely the thing that happened next was to happen at that point 🤣

[wise quiver]

Which further confuses me because all the build up until now has implied that the tenno knew for a long time that the orokin were corrupt/evil and planning to go against them. Which is what made Lotus' infiltration all the easier...but now...

[daring wave]

He called us a pain in the ass like bruh he was so nice until that moment

[leaden parrot]

i don't remember the exact words, but at the beginning of the mission's story, when we first wake up, lloyd does mention the history we force ourselves to witness being corrupter or some synonym of the word

[dawn shoal]

did that line stay in the quest from the demo? i missed it and thought they had changed it like they changed the "Core override" plot point to xenoflora

[wise quiver]

Polluted History.

[silk atlas]

"A long time" doesn't really say how long when we have, at minimum, thousands of years between pretty much every major event that leads up to and is after the fall of the Orokin.

[daring wave]

I see so it may be but not sure if it is

[wise quiver]

This is the other issue.

[leaden parrot]

yess, thank you, that's what he says

[tight plank]

Its because we are not in the Second Dream yet (the state of being in the stasis pods, not the quest).

[wise quiver]

That's what made me think this was supposed to be some weird eternalism thing, but no it's...actually our memories though mildly distorted perhaps.

[leaden parrot]

also, anybody got a translation for bloom guardian amar's lines?

[drifting narwhal]

They are the real memories

[wise quiver]

Do we even have an example of sentient speak to reference?

[leaden parrot]

yes, but since so much time has passed, we may not be remembering correctly

[leaden parrot]

idk, sounded like voide tongue to me. it is 2am over here, so who knows

[silk atlas]

I'm not seeing the "issue" here

[dawn shoal]

without knowing why Loid thinks they're polluted histories i'm not sure i am certain i want to use that as a point towards whether or not they are fully true or not, like he could think that because he doesn't trust the Lotus' ability or the Operator's mind to have held them for a millennia, and after that we woudn't know if he is really right to mistrust at this point

[lean garden]

cant be, its too, smooth flowing yknow?

[woven estuary]

The timeline is kinda weird to be fair which doesn't help, but it's entirely possible that there were some Tenno who really believed the Orokin weren't this shitty, or were in denial that they were

I mean if you look at like, World War 1 and 2 propoganda, the indoctrination of kids and adults alike into war, and the way that we see even today people buying blindly into horrible regiemes when they know they're bad, they just want to ignore it? It makes sense that our Tenno would be like "OMG ITS ONE OF THE SEVEN" because the Seven at that point to them were like, their gods almost, if not emperor figures

[wise quiver]

Time. We have little to no idea how much time has passed over the course of...a lot of this that's going on. Like, the tenno are from "the void era" which you don't use that word without it being a long time ago

[daring wave]

That's what he said

[dawn shoal]

we have no translations for Sentient yet 😭 they've given us nothing to go off of yet

[woven estuary]

I think it was kind of a loving "you're a pain in the ass" type of way and his tone was just weird cos. Sentient

[leaden parrot]

hmm, we may need siege for this one

[lean garden]

hell nah

[wise quiver]

He spoke better than adis did though.

[daring wave]

I guess that's fair

[dawn shoal]

ohh yeah that, i see what you mean now that was kinda rude 🤣

[woven estuary]

I think he was also older

[silk atlas]

Yeah and we can just assume this is the start of the Tenno realizing that the Orokin are jerks, then you have all of The Old War Part 2 for them to realize that before the drums.

[leaden parrot]

also i guess we did get soul bonded to adis

[tight plank]

"WOOF WOOF"

"I AM A GOOD BOY, PET ME!"

"GIVE ME A BONE ADIS"

Those are some of the lines I translated.

[lean garden]

and also the fact that they killed marge after doesnt help

[daring wave]

The second he died i cried and im not ashamed of admitting it

[wise quiver]

Issue with that, Margulis made us(and I assume all the other tenno) forget about the whole...treaty and etc. Because, honestly, the treaty is A BIG DEAL

[silk atlas]

We still see Marge die at least, so there's that reason

[leaden parrot]

so we got one translation straight in game
"Bar-lorun! Mo heekra!" (Defend here! I warn the others)

[daring wave]

Yup and im so glad we got to see the moment it happened 10000/10

[dawn shoal]

yeah that made me Not Okay dangit

[dawn shoal]

ohohoh :D

[daring wave]

I want my friend back 😭😭😭

[wise quiver]

I want my hubby back.

[daring wave]

I will even make a deal with wally to bring him back

[tight plank]

Margulis also says at the end when we confront her "The dream will keep the voices from taking hold." so I presume they put into the Tenno into the stasis pods soon after.

[wise quiver]

Also I'm...kind of upset at the implication that the sentients self awareness came from a plant.

[daring wave]

Yup see said the journey to lua is long

[drifting narwhal]

They should have just caused another void accident 😂

[fast dew]

As in the child???

[daring wave]

Who is itzam and she trusts him more even tho who will trust the orokin lol

[dawn shoal]

i mean to be fair if the memory erasure evidently halted our Operator's ||sudden "rap tap tap little piggy" progression that was kind of escalating at a terrifying rate of speed there|| then i think that was probably worth it even if forgetting all of the other stuff created big problems; ||Going full Fragmented Rell, and while using a freaking URIEL of all frames, seems like it would have been a bigger problem||

[daring wave]

True 😂

[wise quiver]

A: we have no idea their age. B: We basically had a wedding ceremony.

[supple mesa]

||MAN DE YOU'RE MAKING ME CRY, WHY DO YOU HAVE TO KILL MY SENTIENT FRIEND JUST SO YOU CAN GIVE US A LORE REASON WHY WE HAVE REVIVES||

[fast dew]

They are a child.

[daring wave]

XD

[fast dew]

They are a child. Written as a child, acted as a child. They are in school

[true oasis]

the graduation??? FROM SCHOOL??

[fast dew]

They are in literal school

[dawn shoal]

it gave me the vibes of "throwing teenagers into something they're not ready for" which honestly out of all things a committed relationship is probably not the worst thing that adis and operator were tossed at here, considering the trench warfare

[wise quiver]

"Life Bonded."

[daring wave]

I don't know if age laws apply there 😂

[fast dew]

If you can't see that its a child, you might have something genuinely wrong with you.

[true oasis]

HE’S A KID THO?

[fast dew]

Kids have pretend marriages all the time.

[wise quiver]

The writers wrote it that way, what the hek else uses that terminology?

[daring wave]

??

[strange turtle]

I mean its like
Pretty obviously a platonic thing

[fast dew]

Its a CHILD

Do not call a child your HUSBAND

That's gigaweird

And this is coming from the guy who calls Nihil his wife

[waxen mesa]

🍿

[drifting narwhal]

Nihil is my dad

[fast dew]

NIHIL. THE MURDERER

[wise quiver]

I need to find the video clip of the kid crying because another little kid was threatening to marry them.

[true oasis]

lowkey i get the nihil thing

[daring wave]

People here are down bad 😂😂

[silk atlas]

Having seen Fire Emblem fans this is The Mitten levels of awful, honestly.

[fast dew]

I like nihil cuz he has cool clothes.

[true oasis]

we’re talking about a kid man

[daring wave]

WHO THE HELL IS ITZAM AND WHY MARGULIS TRUST HIM ANSWER ME 😭

[fast dew]

I mean i do like ballas as well. But like. Only on a visual level

[strange turtle]

As shown by the relationship literally only ever getting treated as a friendship in every oou thing and the actual quest

[wise quiver]

The archemedian sentient.

[daring wave]

I known

[drifting narwhal]

And he glasses people that be so fun with fire fashion

[daring wave]

Ohhh

[dawn shoal]

you're about to meet that character if you haven't finished the quest

[wise quiver]

Yes, your "teacher" in the school/college what ever it is.

[daring wave]

Already finished lol im just bad with name's

[fast dew]

I wanna bite the glass that covers Nihil's arm

[drifting narwhal]

I love every executor no hate guys

[true oasis]

the hell you mean college they’re teenagers at best

[wise quiver]

Ballas did nothing wrong.

[fast dew]

And neck. Biting it hard till the glass cuts into my gums heheh

[drifting narwhal]

Exactly

[fast dew]

... he assaulted Margulis.

[dawn shoal]

i see you are an enjoyer of shiny

[fast dew]

MARGULIS. I MEAN LOTUS

[daring wave]

You need to die for that hate ballas or die 😤

[drifting narwhal]

It's all loids fault

[fast dew]

Forcibly kissing a person is assault chat

[true oasis]

i would also add attempted omnicide

[fast dew]

Remember that

[drifting narwhal]

Omniman?

[fast dew]

Loid aint do shit he was busy kissing men

[drifting narwhal]

Loid caused every event unlike ballas who was a chill guy

[fast dew]

Albrecht ultimately did but yk

[smoky solstice]

GUYS guys so I was grinding some Perita and did I hear Valdur say something about the Prime frames doing something bad to the Orokin, to where he feels no sympathy for them or something???

[wise quiver]

Between weird void shenanigans and what ever the second dream does for 'slowing the aging', they stopped being teenagers when they were told to go to war. They are, at best, people suffering from trauma. They are trauma onions.

[daring wave]

But the most important thing is did you or did you not attack him 🤔

[dawn shoal]

loid was concerned with kissing albrecht and efforts at keeping albrecht's family from collapsing in on itself he is not involved with that i think yeah

[true oasis]

what the helm are you on about

[wise quiver]

I don't even know anymore.

[drifting narwhal]

Even albrecht didn't cause anything. He just let his 4 legged arm pet out

[fast dew]

The hell do you mean "stopped being teenagers"? The sleep happened after it

I think you're just justifying your attraction towards a child character in mediocre ways

[wise quiver]

We can at least agree that the voice of "I pronounce you life bonded." was a poor choice, yeah?

[fast dew]

Adis is in school. Not college, school. The same school as a child. So logically....

[true oasis]

Adis is a literal kid man, he’s the youngest person ever

[dawn shoal]

at face value, with the fire and all, he seemed to be having a transformative moment where he realized that the position he was in had a quadrillion terrible things wrong with it so I let him go to reconsider his life and all of his choices.

[fast dew]

Nah honestly i can see it being platonic

Cultural differences there

[drifting narwhal]

Youngest person is dad stalker s lil baby

[true oasis]

in any case, ordis survives gettinf lotus blasted, Daklo survives getting uriel’d

[fast dew]

The tenno are still children, even now imo. Idc how old they are physically, they have a child body and the mind of one. That's a child to me.

[silk atlas]

No because I can realize there are things beyond "marriage" and "graduating from school" and that the ceremony here can mean something entirely different culturally within the context of the narrative. It's not like "my Albrecht" where people were refusing to understand there was a lover's dynamic going on there.

[daring wave]

I did let him go plus we saw him talk to margulis in the start abut the teacher and that she trusts him so maybe him knew but came to regret later

[true oasis]

he takes on the mantle

[fast dew]

The "my Albrecht" shit comes from homophobia lowkey

[silk atlas]

Because everyone just assumes that "having a lifelong partnership" needs to mean marraige is dumb as hell.

[fast dew]

Its so painfully obvious

[dawn shoal]

get daklo therapy 2025 campaign

[drifting narwhal]

Need a dedicated 10 hour quest for him

[silk atlas]

"lowkey" kek

[daring wave]

😂

[drifting narwhal]

No

[fast dew]

Like do we need to see loid making out w Albrecht sloppy style for them to know

[true oasis]

highkey

[dawn shoal]

ugh i forgot about those people, rip me

[silk atlas]

Not to mention the whole point of Operator and Adis was that they were even talked about being an example of the Orokin-Sentient relationship that they wanted to foster to keep the peace.

[fast dew]

Media literacy may be dead chat

[true oasis]

everyone and their mother in the game also refers to them as lovers

[dawn shoal]

up to you then

[fast dew]

People are dipshits

[daring wave]

But but but anyone else thinking about what yuriel true name is and why the devil wont say it plus how or why is there a yuriel prime why the hell did they prime him

[wise quiver]

wait there are people denying that loid is...albrechts lover?

[fast dew]

Yes.

[drifting narwhal]

Yall don't need therapy cus of me

[fast dew]

A lot of people do.

[wise quiver]

Hekin' how

[silk atlas]

Homophobia

[wise quiver]

Then again

[fast dew]

Not me tho. I clocked them queers immediately

[dawn shoal]

media literacy is an eidolon collapsed sick in our transference chair and we gotta keep feeding it highly irradiated jolly rancher batteries just to keep it breathing

[wise quiver]

Hand on the cheek had me immediately.

[fast dew]

People say its father and son. Like man.

[true oasis]

but also, even if you theoretically ship Operator and Adis (weird but ok, not morally wrong per se?) maybe don’t refer to the kid character as your hubby it sounds really weird

[fast dew]

Man. man. what kinda relationship is father and son that looks like that

[barren jasper]

can I talk about the new quest here

[wise quiver]

People say that folgers commercial was "totally how siblings act." Uh huh.

[barren jasper]

has everyone played in here

[true oasis]

they were saying huh????

[dawn shoal]

yes, true. just to be clear if i wasn't i was referencing the character since i can't tell right now if i miscommunicated something

[fast dew]

Comparing it to alfred and batman or whatever

[wise quiver]

There is a warning up above that channel may contain spoilers.

[fast dew]

Like no. Albrecht wants that cookie smh

[drifting narwhal]

All the cephalons should get into a relationship with each other

[true oasis]

they’re both old men though??

[dawn shoal]

they are both old 😭

[dawn shoal]

yeah

[fast dew]

Albrecht is admittedly older

[true oasis]

Albrecht is arguably older 😭

[wise quiver]

By a lot.

Centuries at least yeah?

[fast dew]

Maybe

[dawn shoal]

you know what that is true

[barren jasper]

ok ballas said "remember this" was the second dream his idea/ was he in on it?

[wise quiver]

I hate...how weird things are in warframe with time.

[fast dew]

We don't know. Loid is unnaturally old, even before the cryo sleep

He should be, at a minimum, 60 years old

[drifting narwhal]

He's got them albrecht genes

[fast dew]

He uh. Doesn't look like that.

[strange turtle]

Buh

[true oasis]

teshin is the worst offender

[dawn shoal]

i keep forgetting albrecht is at minimum centuries old because he isn't blue lmao

[wise quiver]

The second dream does make the tenno 'easier' to control, instead of roaming freely like we seemingly are on tau. Instead we are isolated to a singular spot to be...well, caged in as it were.

[daring wave]

So no one thinking about why the hell they prime yuriel the one they called the devil 🤔

[fast dew]

He was blue! I prefer that design!

I like this one.

[tight plank]

Darvo is 105 years old, standard looks about human ages don't apply in Warframe.

[drifting narwhal]

We will find out at roathes death bed. (Can't spell his name)

[barren jasper]

man the lore from this quest/stream have been so damn good

[drifting narwhal]

Darvo is a scam

[fast dew]

Oh, and the void scarring he has that proves this portrait was, in fact, post void incident

[wise quiver]

He is, if memory serves, also considered a "teenager" at this point, which just confuses teh hek out of me.

[waxen mesa]

what if that's just an artists depiction of albert

[fast dew]

Its not

[waxen mesa]

and he's actually purple,

[tight plank]

Yeah but he said it when arguing with his dad when we saved him.

[fast dew]

It has void scarring, something that is from the void incident (especially around his eyes!)

[daring wave]

Lol true

[true oasis]

“i will never change my body again” changes body
what did albrecht mean by this

[drifting narwhal]

So within the next millennium

[dawn shoal]

i am not going to lie he doesn't really look blue in that one to me either XD
more like purplish grey somehow

[fast dew]

We can assume he decided not too after duviri

[fast dew]

You may be colour blind

That is a grey blue

[daring wave]

Yup 😂

[true oasis]

maybe

[drifting narwhal]

What colour is he??

[true oasis]

blue

[fast dew]

He's grey/blue

[silk atlas]

It took him a long time for him to decide to stop changing his body

[true oasis]

dabadeedabadie

[wise quiver]

There is a difference between the Yuvan kuva thing, and self modification via surgery and the like.

[drifting narwhal]

So you're telling me that's not grey?

[daring wave]

Voice message in the kim 🤯 best update ever

[fast dew]

It has a blue undertone

[drifting narwhal]

Ohhh

[dawn shoal]

yeah maybe a little bit i keep seeing people calling colors reddish, bluish, or pinkish and thinking "no that is obviously more purple than anything else"
or maybe i was just failed by my preschool education, that could be it too

[drifting narwhal]

Had me worried for a minute 😂

[wise quiver]

You could also be colorblind, like me.

[tight plank]

He said he would not participate in the Kuva, not anything about changing his body which he must have done to have gotten his more normal old-man-in-a-trechcoat look.

[fast dew]

Nihil has a mildly pink undertone

[leaden parrot]

i know it must be some graphical thing the hotfix well... fixed, but maybe memory deterioration?????

[drifting narwhal]

Wonder what the fat executor was like

[wise quiver]

The one Grendel ate?

[dawn shoal]

i mean i would agree but i can see the differences in such colors i just feel like my problem is that i have a strong opinion of what qualifies as a specific color that is probably objectively wrong 🤣

[drifting narwhal]

Yeah

[wise quiver]

was that an executor?

[leaden parrot]

orchestral metal? hell yeah

[daring wave]

Huh ? Is that how the night of naga started??

Who is he talking about

[dawn shoal]

we know from Whispers related lore that Loid ended up working to heal the blindness, right? it must have been related to however he was able to do that.

[drifting narwhal]

Noticed his statue in the quest if that was him

[wise quiver]

I checked the leverian, you right, it was a lone surviving executor.

[dawn shoal]

my guess is Nitokh?

[lean garden]

niktoh probably

[drifting narwhal]

He's built like baron harkonnen 😂

[daring wave]

Remind me who is that 😅 again bad with name's

[lean garden]

the front lining backer for the anarchs

[daring wave]

Huh ?

[wise quiver]

She's behind the Anarchs, the main baddies of the quest.

[dawn shoal]

i am imagining an orokin executor playing linebacker for an american football team full of grineer right now lol

[drifting narwhal]

Definitely not

[copper mountain]

One of the Executors and the one pushing for an end to the Old Peace / behind the Anarchs
Roathe is name-dropped in the quest as her companion

[wise quiver]

So my general understanding of things is

[drifting narwhal]

Can use the one grendel eat as the football though

[dawn shoal]

okay yeah football grendel, i'll get behind that

[daring wave]

Got a pic i cant remember how they look

[wise quiver]

Ballas used us to put in a code into the colonizer seeds which caused them to...kill off the xenoflora that gave the sentients their free will, which brought an end to the treaty and war ignited again and then....somehow we got pushed all the way back to earth and decided to just stay there?

[dawn shoal]

someone else can kick him into the goal though he's a bit dense and i'm not doing that to my ankles

[wise quiver]

WE're still missing some steps.

[drifting narwhal]

Atlas

[lean garden]

well we didnt really have a choice, hunhow destroyed the only way there

[wise quiver]

I'm sorry what?

[leaden parrot]

hmm, the last line the lotus says "... it will not be the place that you or I remember." now imo, this can be interpreted in two ways. I as in the sentient, natah, or I as in archimedian margulis

[lean garden]

nah this much we know, attack on lua, destruction of the rail, old war comes to a close

[dawn shoal]

well step 1 i think is: angery hunhow. they also presumably still had that scary big unnamed sentient that gara killed at cetus in between Old Peace and the end so i can see that playing a role in things

[copper mountain]

Hunhow destroys the Pluto rail to cut off Tau at some point, so that's why we get stuck in the Origin system

[daring wave]

Anyone got a pic of niktoh i can't remember how they look

[drifting narwhal]

The question is what we using to get to tau

[copper mountain]

They're new to this update iirc. No pics yet

[wise quiver]

So, what about that thing of...seeing all the sentients in a tunnel coming to the origin ssytem in the new war?

[dawn shoal]

probably railjack? it sounds like it would be risky without a rail but that's probably why we're using that device of Loid's, to pinpoint the best way there through the Void somehow

[daring wave]

Then how margulis got us to lua from there if she out our operator to sleep before

[dark compass]

finally, more orphix missions

[wise quiver]

At the end of the old peace quest they are literally immediately going back to earth.

[copper mountain]

The New War sentient ships floated over the slow way if I understand it correctly

[drifting narwhal]

I mean the zariman can still be used from what yonta said I think

[dawn shoal]

i don't think the destruction of the rail happened before margulis takes us back though

[daring wave]

Yes but howwww

[wise quiver]

The solar rail that the sentients built?

[lean garden]

bad idea, would screw over the system

[copper mountain]

Taking the solar rail, which still exists at this point
Hunhow breaks the other end later

[daring wave]

Oh it wasn't destroyed yet

[lean garden]

thats correct

[drifting narwhal]

Yeah

[dawn shoal]

if it also wasn't plugging a dangerous hole in between the void and the material universe i'd say that's the other best guess but i think moving it at this point is asking for apocalyptic disaster

[vestal aspen]

What was everyone's decision regarding Daklo?

[wise quiver]

Live.

I really wanna know when our sun/moon alignment will be used for anything.

[drifting narwhal]

If phragasa is still about that's always a choice also

[wise quiver]

Didn't we....let her drift into the sun?

[drifting narwhal]

Did we?

[wise quiver]

All things considered, I would not leave prahgasa in one piece after the whole "almost eat the sun and kill all life" thing.

[dawn shoal]

i noticed this quest didn't have any decisions about that, maybe because it's canonically before Second Dream/War Within in the character's arcs? which would imply that it only matters past a certain point in the plot

[drifting narwhal]

I mean she is braindead not her choice

[chrome rivet]

My laptop bricked,so can't play the the new Update

I dont mind spoilers, so

What are the roles of these Primes?

[copper mountain]

What still perplexes me is that the quest establishes that Sentients need xenoflora to escape the "hive mind", and without it they revert

But Hunhow, Natah, and Erra all seem to demonstrate free will without xenoflora. So maybe they're the "hive mind(s)"?

The free-acting sentients in the quest are also have same forms that Hunhow and Erra later use as "fragments", so maybe Sentients have an internal hierarchy of full individuals and fragments, with the latter only achieving free will with flower-power?

[wise quiver]

It didn't, but it could, because lotus implies that we are going to tau somehow. So we could have made choices that affect that but also as someone said, t hey can't really do too many big branching choices because...things.

[dawn shoal]

yeah we just need a sun's worth of energy from somewhere else lol
though tbh i think narmer got a hold of praghasa again considering she could be an implication behind why they're gathering resources and we need to do archon hunts

[wise quiver]

You don't leave a BFG around for someone, anyone, to pick up and just use.

[drifting narwhal]

She did consume some of the sun

[lean garden]

hunhow natah and erra to me are the locus of their "hive-minds"

[drifting narwhal]

I mean

[wise quiver]

That's kind of the sense I got honestly. T he xenoflora specifically makes the fragments sentient/self aware.

[dawn shoal]

if you look closely, the sentients that aren't subject to being compelled to follow orders from their hive mind glow blue, and all of the others (including hunhow's and narmers) glow orange, it's got to do with some kind of energy in the flowers, maybe related to the radiation from the prelude adventure game.

[wise quiver]

But, critically, it also makes the sentients immune to being commanded by the orokin/humans.

[lean garden]

in the old peace we see individual drone type units have individuality, by the time we see the sentients in the second half of the old war theyre all part of bigger sentients

[earnest sapphire]

They were somehow controlled by the rebel to fight against the Orokin

[dawn shoal]

fair, though i'd guessed that went into opening ballas' void portal at the end there

[drifting narwhal]

89% efficiency on fuel consumption

[dark compass]

TGA tomorrow, we will learn more about some new stuff coming to warframe

I assume it'll be the tau tease

[wise quiver]

The end of the quest is literally "we're going to tau"

[dark compass]

Yeah but I mean DE showing something

They said there'll be something new for warframe that isn't old peace related on TGA

[wise quiver]

Also, it seems we might use...transference? somehow? to get to tau?

[dark compass]

Excal Prime is still there crucified

[wise quiver]

I was surprised to see it use my excal prime.

I thought it would be a generic one.

Anyone else want that operator outfit?

[dawn shoal]

my best guess is it will be either some other form of media related to warframe (like starfinder was) or something significant for a different update next year 🤔

[drifting narwhal]

The old peace part 2 coming end of December would be funny

[wise quiver]

We are getting an operation in a few days

[drifting narwhal]

5 days🔥 🔥

[wise quiver]

6

December 16th.

[earnest sapphire]

Y e s

[drifting narwhal]

Well its the 11th for me

[lean garden]

whens tga again?

[wise quiver]

I'd like to imagine it's something you can buy from someone somewhere, but I'm surprised it wasn't like a store item or something to 'skiip the grind'.

[dark compass]

Tomorrow

Oh wait today I mean

[lean garden]

what time is it?

[dark compass]

It's already today, shit

I haven't slept

[wise quiver]

Something I just realized.

[drifting narwhal]

What timezone you in?

[wise quiver]

Where are the other tenno during this quest?

[copper mountain]

I assumed that we were a pilot program for the Tauron academy, so the rest are still in Margulis' care
That's why Itzam tells us he hopes others will follow in our footsteps right before getting exploded

[wise quiver]

This is the place we would realistically/most likely encounter other tenno

Itzam's death felt...forced.

And...pointless?

[copper mountain]

Agreed; not really sure why any parties involved would want him dead

[wise quiver]

He is an archemedian so maybe he has some pull with the sentients but like...

[lean garden]

lol uh how many hours is that

[drifting narwhal]

I have no clue

[copper mountain]

Except maybe Ballas because Itzam was the only person who might be aware of the executor's actual intentions (he gave us the Ayatan after all)
Basically silence him in case he figured out that the Ayatan was a trick

[wise quiver]

He did approach ballas to tell him about the flaw of the eggs.

[drifting narwhal]

May be wrong but is it 22 hours or something? I am tired as hell

[solid dove]

Has anyone noticed the new mods look like they could make a picture when put together

[drifting narwhal]

That's a good question

[drifting narwhal]

Imagine every mod made a picture together

[north jolt]

Kind of reminds me of the "stoned ape" theory

Also I forgot/confused about something with the timeline. Where exactly does the "Old Peace" quest fit in relation to Ballas's betrayel that we learn about in The Sacrifice?

Im assuming its at some point after right?

[wise quiver]

Before, as I understand it.

Because he betrayed because of margulis death, which occurs after this, because...well, margulis is alive during the old peace.

[lean garden]

^

[north jolt]

Oh right, yeah that makes more sense then

I mean either way it reinforces he literally has 0 loyalty to anything but himself too

[hushed lava]

Ballas is just evil incarnate

[north jolt]

True, but i would also say just entirely selfish

[wise quiver]

As I understand it, by the end of the quest, Ballas wants to frame the tenno for the failure of the old peace, while also taking control of the sentients again. But margulis takes the blame for the old peace treaty failing thus forcing him to kill her, and he gets angy at the tenno for that and so he decides to betray the other orokin (and the tenno) to hunhow (and also get a copy of his waifu back.)

[north jolt]

Okay that explains another thing I was going to ask about cause it seemed like it was implied but unless I missed something, wasn't fully elaborated on during the quest. Margulis's betreyal I mean

[wise quiver]

That's just my understanding of the implications, because...yeah, nothing is explicitely stated.

[north jolt]

Also like I said earlier, Im wondering now if the writers are aware of stoned ape theory given the whole plot point with the xeno flowers

[wise quiver]

Maybe someone on the team might be

I thought it was fire/cooking food that did it for humans

[north jolt]

I mean In IRL history I dont know how legit it actually is, but I think using it as narrative inspiration is interesting in this context

[open coral]

so if flare eventually becomes temple and is still around during the fall of the orokin empire, is that also true of the other protos? is there a dormant excalibur buried a hundred miles deep somewhere in the earths crust

[north jolt]

Especially since its likely something that just happened by accident. Afaik the sentients weren't designed to specifically feed of xeno flowers for fuel, because how would the Orokin even know it existed before reaching tau? to me it seems like the sentients were able to just utilize any biomass for fuel and they stumbled across xeno flowers and boom now they have self awareness

[wise quiver]

We we know as fact is the xenoflora makes the fragments of sentients become fully self aware/individuals. This, however, seems odd considering we have the likes of HUnhow who is an individual. The implications being that the xenoflora could have sparked something in the 'bigger' sentients to make them self aware.

[earnest sapphire]

The rest of the hex’s fate are unknown I assume

[north jolt]

Also makes me wonder how Hunhow and Lotus and Erra have maintained their sentience for this long without xenoflora

[wise quiver]

They were designed to be adaptable to anything that happened to them. All we know is the xenoflora makes the fragments become self aware/individuals, but we don't know anything else about how it interacts with this 'hive mind' thing they have going on.

[median orchid]

Are we already discussing the weird relationship between the blue kuva, blue plants in tau, and actual kuva?

[wise quiver]

Because, exactly this. Also Natah and Erra are children of Hunhow and Praghasa, which raises...so many questions.

[north jolt]

Right, and far as we know they are the only plants anywhere capable of this. I just think it was a accidental discovery, but once it came to be the sentients fully embraced it

[wise quiver]

Well before this the lore was the sentients just "became aware" as per the standard "self evolving/modifying robotic creature" trope, which was fine. Making it connected to a flower is...a weird retcon.

[copper mountain]

Isn't the implication that the flowers only grant the fragments full independence?

The whole reason Perintol was almost killed is because the Orokin had a "no thinking machines" policy that the OG sentient starfish would have violated. It implies that the sentients do have the capacity for individual thought, hence Hunhow, Natah, and Erra.

The xenoflora grant this same individuality to what we later see as "fragments": the conculysts, battalysts, and other "drones" that appear in our time as mindless automatons. The flower grants them independence from their controllers, which seem to be the "true" sentients like Hunhow and family.

[median orchid]

I almost wonder if sentient fragments are people that were given blue kuva and bount to original sentient bodies

[north jolt]

Smaller parts of a larger living organism gaining sentience
Now its reminding me of Parasite EVE

[median orchid]

Similar to glassing

[copper mountain]

The flower cannot be necessary for all sentients to have free will because Hunhow, Natah, and Erra clearly do have free will despite no flowers. Thus I am inclined to believe the flowers are for fragments only

[wise quiver]

But then why would that be needed even? Because Hunhow and Praghasa can have sentient/self aware kids I.E. Natah and Erra. So the question becomes, why make the fragments when they can have kids via some other means? And why need the fragments to maintain sentience?

Or, better yet, why make fragments without sentience at all?

[north jolt]

I doubt it. I think on the whole sentients are just machines capable of mimicking certain organic functions like reproduction via, I guess duplication? mitosis? not sure what you would call the sentient's mode of reproduction exactly but I don't think they are humans in some way

[median orchid]

They might not be. I just find it suscpcious how many connections there are between the flower, and blue kuva

[copper mountain]

Unsure, but my best guess is so that they don't take issue with the whole "work until you die and then your body becomes part of the solar rail" thing?

[median orchid]

And the ascaris negator too honestly

[lean garden]

only flare

[wise quiver]

My understanding of the sentients, before this quest, was they went to tau, colonized it, and during that time became self aware as per the robotic trope. So the whole of Tau had like multiple beings like HUnhow and Praghasa who had other different types of children like natah, erra, etc.

[lean garden]

If I ever have time remind me to drop my crack theory on Sentient sentience. This xenoflora business feeds it well

[north jolt]

Maybe past a certain point it just became a permanent feature in some generations of sentients (pointing to the parallels with stoned ape theory again) but that's just a guess

[wise quiver]

I mean, Adis mentioned they didn't mind it, but also there is the thing of from a story standpoint why do the flowers exist.

[median orchid]

I think its,

A: to explain how ascaris bolts work

B: to explain how b and continuity work

It seems like the blue flowers fits the rold of both, and the arg hints at a connection to the ascsris bolts

[north jolt]

Also who's idea was it to give schizophrenic teenagers access to destructive weapons? Someone's needs to have a talk with the brass

[wise quiver]

Davis.

As per that synthesis bit of lore, the guys name was Davis.

[north jolt]

Freaking Davis I swear

[copper mountain]

The guy from the Rhino Prime Codex who figured out that the teenagers could keep the dangerous weapons from nomming on everyone / rebelling

[wise quiver]

Which, again, brings a lot of stuff into question.

Because the warframes weren't made until the old war happened.

[north jolt]

Officially calling him Davis. Its canon now

[wise quiver]

That's his name.

[copper mountain]

That's actually his name. Didn't remember it but yeah he's named in the codex

[north jolt]

Wait for real? I haven't read that codex in forever

[wise quiver]

Yeah, his name is Davis, it's canon

[north jolt]

Omfg you aren't gaslighting me. This is incredible

[wise quiver]

But the rhino prime codex entry is...confusing.

[copper mountain]

That's still true, as far as I can tell. The Old Peace splits the Old War into two sections, one before and one after. A peace treaty requires a war to end, after all

[median orchid]

Thats exactly what I thought too.

[wise quiver]

Right, but we know the warframes were made in response to the old war starting off.

[median orchid]

I think that ballas found out that he could kill tenni using the ascaris negator technilogy, and fled back to origin system after igniting the war so no one noticed he went missing

[wise quiver]

I doubt it, because...The New War?

[median orchid]

Then the ascaris failed after we woke up, so paracesis and void hell

I mean, again, the ascaris device fsiling is like one of the first things that happens when we wake up isnt it?

[wise quiver]

If you're referring to Vor, that could be numerous things.

Chief among them being "it's been 1000+ years and the technology has degraded"

[median orchid]

I might be misremembering some of the EARLY warframe lore.

[north jolt]

Old War pt1 kicks off, fancy advance weapons fail/are turned against Orokin. In response Orokin make warframes but they are near impossible to control in most cases. Eventually they figure out the tenno can control frames and eventually that leads to The Old Peace section of history, which eventually falls apart and we go to part 2 of the old war. Thats the timeline as I understand it right now

[wise quiver]

No, you right, there is an ascaris bolt that vor uses.

[copper mountain]

Order of operations, as far as I can tell is

Old War begins --> Sentients kick butt --> Orokin make Gen 1 Warframes --> Orokin kick butt --> Warframe Insurrections --> Tenno fix Warframes --> Orokin make Gen 2 Warframes --> Old Peace --> War's back on --> Stalemate --> Ballas tells Hunhow about the Reservoir --> Hunhow sends Natah --> Ballas turns her into the Lotus --> Old War "ends" but it's a bluff --> Betrayal at the Terminus --> Old War ends for real because no more Orokin --> Long Sleep --> Now

[median orchid]

I think that ballas saw the bolt fail, then concocted his plan to banish the tenno into hell

[wooden comet]

Remember it’s the Ascaris Prime

Oop

[copper mountain]

Lol

[median orchid]

Idk for sure im just throwing ideas out before i fall asleep

[wooden comet]

Forgot I still had the reply on.

[wise quiver]

Correct. Now, questions arise of "Why were tenno in some kind of storage when we were supposedly, taken in by margulis after the zariman ten-0 was found.

[wooden comet]

But yeah, it’s a copy of an original Ascaris.

[north jolt]

Because taking a nap for too long can be bad for you as we are currently finding out

[neat stirrup]

Coming here, do we think the old peace is setting up for a potential glimpse into the Old War?

Idk, it feels like it would neatly complete the trifecta of the new war and the old peace.

I also personally think that, given we used uriel and crashed out (which, valid crashout on our end), makes sense why ballas even calls us Devil. I like the little details like that (though i could be wrong)

[wise quiver]

I don't follow.

[wooden comet]

Also Marguilis had some…weirdness around her eyes.

[north jolt]

Wasn't a serious answer :p

[median orchid]

I think margulis was in trouble for something with the tenno and she got hade lighted didnt she?

[wise quiver]

At most we can relive the night of revenge we had on the orokin, but the old peace is setting up for us g oing to tau

[wise quiver]

Yeah, a tenno blinded her in a freak accident when she found us on the zariman/after while training, yeah?>

[neat stirrup]

I know about the going to tau, but theres nothing against setting up multiple things.

Although, reliving night of the naga drums would be interesting

[median orchid]

Oh it coulda been that hixlysss i think im wrong

[north jolt]

But as for a serious answer, maybe the tenno were never meant to be put to sleep forever, just for shorter periods of time to keep "the voices" at bay but still have them be useful to the Orokin

[median orchid]

They used sleep as transference therapy according to the silver grove.

[copper mountain]

The codex entry only states that it's "where the survivors are kept", which does not necessarily mean that they're in stasis or anything. They're dangerous void-touched youths who burned a woman's eyes out and have voices in their heads. It makes sense to keep them isolated so that they don't harm others or themselves.

Then Davis discovers that they can do space therapy. So now they're needed for the military despite being in no shape to do so.

[wise quiver]

At the end of the old peace quest, Ballas has set stuff up for tenno to take the blame of the old peace treaty from failing and Margulis is going t o take the blame for us.

[wooden comet]

Which results in her death.

[median orchid]

That leads to her being killed by jade light?

[north jolt]

Cause we know the tenno can operate frames while asleep, but I would imagine if a tenno ever needed to switch to or train on a different warframe for some reason, they have to be awake for that

[median orchid]

Okay. I was close

Ive heard people think rell was the one that got margulis, but im not sure if that holds up

[neat stirrup]

Margulius took the blow for the tenno it appears.

Her taking the blow for the tenno is probably the reason she was sent to the jade light.

[wise quiver]

I crawl up the wall to stand, opposite the door. I've never seen this cell, a cold place with an array of shelves. A morgue?

[north jolt]

Or maybe Margilus just felt bad keeping us unconscious for indefinite periods of time and convinced the Orokin to let us wake at certain points so we at least got a chance to kinda live a life

[copper mountain]

Ah. Well. There goes my point

[wooden comet]

Yeah the timeline is…weird.

[neat stirrup]

It could simply be a halo (i believe it's halo at least, i'm a bit rusty of other games knowledg) situation. Only woken up when needed and then put back to sleep when no longer needed.

[north jolt]

Also does anyone know what "xx99" actually is? don't tell me I just want to know if the answer is ever given yet

[north jolt]

Probably the most likely. Also my earlier guess kind of conflicts with the early game cause we acquire a handful of different frames before we are fully awaken

[wise quiver]

We also don't know how common it is for a tenno to have multiple warframes.

If we take the old peace for example, it would seem that it was normal for a tenno to have one frame.

[north jolt]

Maybe when there was more of us around, probably less common tbh if I had to guess

[whole lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/grendel-grendal-prime-warframe-orange-creamsicle-hello-chat-gif-8335281156347721127

[median orchid]

We also dont know if when waking up, its intended for us to have multiple frames, i always assumednit was intented that you only had the one warframe up until unlocking a second in story

[neat stirrup]

I personally don't think it would be particularly common to have more than one warframe

[whole lantern]

Crap sorry fellas wrong chat my bad

[north jolt]

More tenno means more room for "sepecialization" (maining a particular frame) and less need to be competent in the use of several different frames and their abilities, maybe

[wise quiver]

Speaking of more tenno, it's still...strange that this is supposed to be a school yet it's only got what, 2 students?

[neat stirrup]

I do wish we had seen more of Tauron academy to be honest 😅

[median orchid]

I as a silly boy assumed thats the “class” is the other tenno we see online and just assume that there wete alot of classes about the teno

[wise quiver]

I mean the academy is supposedly/seemingly/implied to be the place where we learned/developed the focus schools...

[median orchid]

Ten-0

Especially simce as players were still likited to one focus at a time

[north jolt]

Cause between the old war, the fall of the empire, countless things going on during the chaos of the collapse, Stalker, who knows how many actual Tenno we just lost over the course of history to one thing or another

[wise quiver]

And that's another question of, in lore how many tenno exist? We know for a fact they exist but like

Some of them are clearly trash cause they die to like...the jackal

And another thing, I thought we were immortal because of the eternalism thing with wally...

[median orchid]

Hell forget how many of them are there. How possible is it to kill a tenno? Permanently? It seems to vary greatly depending on the situation.

[north jolt]

Tbh I don't think there will ever be a exact number for that lore wise. For one, unless you go with an absurdly large number (even though the tenno are suppose to be rare in lore) its going to conflict with actual player count

[wooden comet]

It’s assumed you’re not alone.

[wise quiver]

There seems to be a lot of situations, in lore, where 'killing a warframe' is equivalent to killing a tenno.

[north jolt]

Crack theory: Ballas throwing us into the void during New War actually saved us. Otherwise we would of just bled out on the sentient ship

[wise quiver]

I don't want an exact number, but it would be nice to at some point meet another tenno, properly.

[neat stirrup]

I would assume true immortality would make the tenno a bit too OP especially from a narrative standpoint.

[north jolt]

Oh for sure, and I thought this quest would of been a great opportunity for that

[median orchid]

The issue is we dont hear that their immortal, but we also dont have alot of examples of tennos for sure dying

[wise quiver]

I mean not 'true' immortaility but like, clearly we are hard to kill or else ballas wouldn't have had to go through all that effort to lure us in and kick us into the void to 'send us back to hell' and get rid of the tenno.

[median orchid]

Like can we say for certain that warframe death=tenno death?

Was garudas death a tenno dying? Or just throwing their warfrsme away to help a town

[north jolt]

if DE ever wanted to introduce a sure fire weakness at some point MAYBE it would be a good chance to make the concept of "oro" relevant again

[median orchid]

Blue kuva is for sure the way to kill a tenno imo

[wise quiver]

Garuda, Gara, Limbo, Mirage...how many of those stories are of a tenno operated warframe, or a protoframe type situation?

[median orchid]

Force the tenno to drink it and next time they transference its permanent

[neat stirrup]

I'd assume wally likely made it harder for us to die, but like, just with anyone, you still have to be careful.

I doubt i would as a tenno survive that fight with adis.

And the tenno were quite vunerable and upset during the new war.

But i think, like. We definitely have a lot more. Sturdiness

[north jolt]

Maybe? its murky cause during Second Dream and Chains of Harrow its kind of implied that if a tenno is inside a warframe, but for some reason no longer has access to their true bodies, that in those cases if the warframe dies they might also die?

[wise quiver]

There is also a difference between a Tenno and Our Operator.

[median orchid]

Is there?

[north jolt]

Cause their "soul" whatever you want to call it, has no physical body anymore so they kidna just, pass on?

[wise quiver]

Because Our Operator is the one that made the deal with Wally to save all the kids of the zariman.

[median orchid]

So a tenno is the group of people, but ddint all the tenno children aboard the zariman become void fueled?

[wise quiver]

Correct, but only because our operator made the deal.

[median orchid]

That i know

But rell clearly knew about the man

[north jolt]

Where's ducky when you need them

[wise quiver]

Rell was also different.

[median orchid]

Does he know the man because he made a deal? Seemingly wally inly targets those he makes desls with right?

[neat stirrup]

So i'd assume that we have more resilience and stuff considering it might be that wally needs us alive?

[median orchid]

Baro, alad v, us, albrecht

[wise quiver]

I very much do not think wally needs us alive.

[neat stirrup]

Dam

[median orchid]

I think wally cant kill us either os the issue

[wise quiver]

How many times has they tried to kill us?

[north jolt]

Yeah but he also brings up the same question cause: what happened to his original body to begin with? did he transfer into Harrow and then they just, disposed of it somehow?

[median orchid]

I think it has to do with adis goving us their sould

[wise quiver]

As my understanding, old age.

[median orchid]

Which is why i think blue kuva is important here

[wise quiver]

A combination of old age + stress of constantly fighting off Wally broke down his body and he put himself into his warframe.

[neat stirrup]

I didn't even know blue kuva existed 😅 is that something confirmed?

[median orchid]

Blue kuva allows the consumer to transfer their soul into a new body. Seemingly, whatever sentience adis had from those flowers, was transported into us

It is for sure confirmed in the nights of narberus story told by the decoration grandmother gives you

Idk if its just a story or canon canon but i think its real

[north jolt]

Which still implies SOME kind of vulnerability, or the tenno/operators not being 100% completely immortal

[median orchid]

Especially with how they hint to future updates

[dark compass]

It's a random blurb from Naberus

I really don't feel like it's gonna come into play

[median orchid]

I think: we have a sentient soul in a human body granted void powers

I think its important

[neat stirrup]

I've not once said the tenno/operators are immortal

[median orchid]

It has the same properties of the blue flowes but for people

[north jolt]

I was referencing a earlier question about the topic, nothing you specifically said

[neat stirrup]

My apologies 😅

[north jolt]

You're good

[median orchid]

I dont think anyone could kill us or they would simply put, multiple people state we cant be killed. Makes it hard to assume we can die. Ill also reiterate that we only have like 1 confirmed death of a tenno, which is rell

[wise quiver]

The blue flowers give the sentient fragments self awareness.

[north jolt]

Someone was just asking if and "how" immortal the Tenno actually are and the answer is: we dunno

[median orchid]

But they can use the power from the blue flowers to restore others. So clearly its deeper than just self awareness

[north jolt]

If there is a way to kill them we have not found it yet. Maybe for the best, but its iffy

[neat stirrup]

But either way, the tenno being 100% immortal imo is also just... a boring plot device? Like, yes we are the main character, but i don't want my main character to be infallible 😅

[wise quiver]

That was unique to Adis.

[median orchid]

Was that really?

[wise quiver]

Yes, that's actually a big story point that Adis was unique in that they could heal people.

[neat stirrup]

I believe the lotus says that that is a very rare ability only some sentients possess

[north jolt]

Personally Im still betting on the tenno having something like "oro" being the source of their immortality. Maybe not oro exactly, but just something that as long as it remains intact, we stay alive no matter what but if it ever gets destroyed we boned

[wise quiver]

They don't even know if another one like adis exists, it's that rare.

[median orchid]

See i thought it was rare but jot ONLY ADIS

oh okay i thought it was hyperbole but that checks out

[kind sparrow]

why do we have to go to tau?

[median orchid]

So then, i wonder if adis healing us healed the lost sould or something. Cause adis very clearly states my light will be with you and there is a transfer of light and energy

[north jolt]

Also repeating crackpot theory from earlier: Ballas kicking us into the void actually saved us rather then killing or trapping us

[neat stirrup]

Which is interesting to me. It's implied that maybe there were others like adis, but they too are long lost.

Otherwise it wouldn't be considered a rare ability. For it to be rare, it surely couldn't have been just one guy

[north jolt]

He should of kicked us into the sun instead, silly Ballas

[wise quiver]

Because the initial issue of why we needed to go to tau still exists, depleating resources. If memory serves anyway. But also for answers and for, hopefully, peace at long last.

[median orchid]

Also that’s where albrecht is

[north jolt]

And currently to find Albrecht

[kind sparrow]

but the population massively decreased?

[wise quiver]

Decreasing the population just slowed the consumption of resources.

[north jolt]

He's kept us waiting for milk and cigarettes for too long!

[median orchid]

The grineer are destroying earth still as they clone. The corpus are still mining venus and jupiter for gasses which dont last forever

[wise quiver]

Also, wait, Albrecht is in Tau?!

[median orchid]

Yes he is. He says so in 1999

[north jolt]

The implication seems to be yes, he is

[neat stirrup]

I'd assume we're going to tau for various reasons.

I'd also assume when we get tau next year (as far as i know thats when the devs said it was going to be coming out), we can probably uncover more things about our operators past

[north jolt]

DE literally promised Tau in 2026

[median orchid]

“Something something im headed for tau, come find me.”

[wise quiver]

Oh god

After what he did to 1999....

[north jolt]

And we know what will happen if they do not deliver on that promise ||We invade Canada ||

[neat stirrup]

Yeah, i am just not a fountain of knowledge and sometimes promises can't be fulfilled (and truthfully i'd rather if Tau wasn't ready, wait longer)

[median orchid]

Im still unsure. I think theyre building albrecht to be intentionally evil here recently to build up the secret villain

[wise quiver]

Do not threaten the place that invented the geneva convention.

[kind sparrow]

bro dont invade canada

[median orchid]

I think albrecht is one of the “morally meh” chatacters.

[north jolt]

Dang you right. Then we will just send angry emails to Canada

[median orchid]

The techrot/infestation is actually kinda helping us in the long term.

[neat stirrup]

Chaotic neutral to be honest.

[wise quiver]

Albrecht is, IMO, a very "ends justify the means" kind of person.

[north jolt]

Also new crackpot theory: The Orokin are the direct descendants of Canada

[median orchid]

Thats exactly how id describe him^ well put

[wise quiver]

And he wants to do something about Wally.

[kind sparrow]

is ballas really dead or we fight him in tau too?

[median orchid]

Brother i think the orokin are floridians ngl

Theyre way too nuts to be canadian

[wise quiver]

He was never dead.

[north jolt]

He's dead, dead and gone and is never coming back

[wise quiver]

Oh wait, Ballas.

[median orchid]

Yeah ballas is rip. His sagas over

[wise quiver]

I derped hard. Ballas is...technically still alive in duviri.

[north jolt]

Also so far Ballas is the only villain we know of to actually stay dead

[median orchid]

Were onto wally controlling a hunhullis from in the void

Juat u wait

[north jolt]

That's like a fake Ballas based off Kullervo's memory tho

[neat stirrup]

I mean, at this point. Who doesn't?

I kind of hope wally isn't just the big bad guy that can't be helped ever and we aren't going to try helping him™ kind of villian

[wise quiver]

I still wanna know what kullervo's sin was. I bet it's connected to The Old Peace somehow.

[median orchid]

Its “real” in that its a copy based on a real memory

[kind sparrow]

bro kullervos sin is starting the rebellion

[median orchid]

His sin was probably breathing in the same room as margulis

[north jolt]

There are several. Basically he murdered a Orokin and tried leading a insurrection that ultimately failed

[kind sparrow]

fook margulis what a beech

[stoic oriole]

Sooo the old peace ending

[median orchid]

Im confused on her morality

[wise quiver]

The majority of the warframe universe? Thus far the only people that know about wally is our operator, lotus(?) and Albrecht.

[median orchid]

That cant be true

[north jolt]

She hates the Orokin, loves the Tenno, wants us to have the best possible chance at a decent future even if it means putting us in a coma so the voices dont take over

[median orchid]

That cant be true.

[kind sparrow]

bro how we help void being???

[neat stirrup]

I mean, still plenty of people who want this eldritch horror to stop eldritch horror-ing

[stoic oriole]

She || hid the tenno after old peace tho and im pretty sure that projection of her talking was a ballas made fake||

[wise quiver]

You right, I forgot about Loid and the Cavia.

[median orchid]

Alad v made a deal with wally, rell new, loid knows, baro/scaro made a deal with him when visiting the void.

Alad v got sentient technology from “a strange man with a dazling smile” or something wccording to his quote

[wise quiver]

Alad V did? when/where? Rell is dead. Baro just knows a 'strange man'.

[neat stirrup]

Do the holdfasts know too?

[wise quiver]

TO BE FAIR, that could have been ballas.

[north jolt]

Is this actually confirmed in game?

Tbh I believe it even if not, because of freaking course Alad would make a deal with Wally why wouldn't he? Im just curious

[median orchid]

I mean, knowing a strange man that makes deals and locks you in the void has only ever been wally

[wise quiver]

Was alad v locked in the void?

[lean garden]

hang on, can you cite where you saw that?

[median orchid]

“If anyone was gonna make a deal with satan, im glad it was the corporate billionare concerned with cutting costs.”

I could go look bau but i could be blowing smoke on that one

[neat stirrup]

I mean, you don't necessarily have to be locked in the void.

I assumed alad had met Ballas, as i don't think "dazzling smile" encapsulates wally all that well

[median orchid]

But baro FOR SURE has met wally and made a desl

[lean garden]

baro yes

[kind sparrow]

the strange man is just darvo bro

[lean garden]

but this is rhe first Ive ever heard alad do that

[wise quiver]

That was...the Jovian Concord? Regus?

[median orchid]

I feel like every time i see wally he is smiling

[lean garden]

alad got his amalgam stuff direct from the sentients

[median orchid]

Sec

[lean garden]

thats why rolypoly was there

to make sure alad was doing his job

[neat stirrup]

Oh hi bau long time no see

[lean garden]

sup

[glacial bough]

Yeah, Alad has had no way to connect to Wally or Ballas

[wise quiver]

It is still strange how age is seemingly treated in warframe.

Darvo being the best example.

[median orchid]

So i have no quite on alad v, i think i confusws it for baro

Quote*

[north jolt]

I just realized

Part of this update is basically about a Reddit atheist being stuck with Catholic school girl and a grumpy bishop

[median orchid]

Although all of the zariman crew, and eleanor know about him at least

[wise quiver]

Also baro's thing was in reference to cross platform stuff which...it's a fun little 'in lore' explanation of things.

[median orchid]

I know but i consider it canon cuz it happens still

Like the relays destruction was a fun social event but them dudes is still destroyed

[wise quiver]

IMO I wish/hope DE releases like an official timeline of events up until now.

I don't need durations of years just a chronological order of events.

"this happened before this and before this...."

[dark compass]

Maybe before some big event, like the end of tau arc

[wise quiver]

Or before the tau arc? Perhaps?

[median orchid]

“Previously on warframe Z

[dark compass]

Maybe

[wise quiver]

It would be fitting.

A recap of everything we know before we go off to a whole entire solar system.

[median orchid]

I could see that

[kind sparrow]

how do they do transference for protea?

[wise quiver]

You mean "how do you end up fighting a protea warframe?" Ascaris Prime bolt.

Alad V had the control collar for Mesa, it's not that far out of the realm of possability for the orokin of old to have something similar.

Also uh

I'm remembering the "weakness" of wally

Of how it's Love and all that jazz?

[wooden comet]

It’s cause Wally doesn’t understand feelings.

[wise quiver]

Im uh...getting an idea that albrecht...may resurrect/frankenstein Adis.

[kind sparrow]

isnt wally weakness being a bush

bish

[lean garden]

for like the deadlock protea?

[kind sparrow]

so youre telling me wally just needs sally???

we need to get wally a void gf

[dark compass]

Wally will lose to the power of friendship

Unironically

[wise quiver]

He literally does in 1999

You literally beat Wally in 1999 with the power of friendship.

[dark compass]

Yep

You beat indifference with empathy

[torpid quiver]

Okay so, 1 why the hell were margulis's eyes GONE, 2 how do I get more marie and roathe dialogue, I've done a few descenda's fully and gotten a fair few for roathe but only 2 for marie now?

[wooden comet]

I want to raise Ballas and beat him to death with my fists

[wise quiver]

She got blinded/hurt by the tenno early on into the whole 'helping' them thing.

[lean garden]

1. a tenno did it, might be you, might be someone else
2. marie seems to be daily

[torpid quiver]

kk

[copper mountain]

Her face getting messed up like that is also one of the reasons Ballas hates us. Because we messed up his favorite toy

[wooden comet]

Warframe gave me two NPCs that were only in a quest for an hour and I just about cried. Adis and Itzem.

How dare you DE.

[wise quiver]

Itzem's death was a shocker, like, why? Adis felt...I donno, not good.

neither felt good

[torpid quiver]

blame ballas

[wise quiver]

Let me clarify, from a story standpoint they didn't feel good.

[torpid quiver]

blame ballas

[lean garden]

why do you feel that they didnt feel good

[wise quiver]

Itzem's felt unneccessary, without any explanation as to why it just feels...like a pointless death just for death's sake.

Adis is more so a thing of "This is clearly meant to be emotional but I was not given enough time to bond with this person for it to really matter, but also as far as I know/understand my tenno is difficult to kill because of eternalism so why...why do I need to be revived here by Adis? Is this why we are hard to kill and why ballas had to kick us into the void in The New War?"

[lean garden]

huh, the moment itzam spoke to ballas I knew he was going to die

that man is death LOL

[brazen seal]

Itzam dared to talk abt a flaw on balla's project in front of him

Not so wise ig

[spare relic]

Heyy guys I just experienced the old peace. So I just want to confirm the story and don't want anything to miss out. So basically it's an era of peace where orokin and sentients where both community live together because of a treaty. Then it turns out Ballas betray the sentients by messing up the codes in the ayatan🤔? Only the grineer knows Ballas upcoming betrayal. And the others were used. The messed up codes let the xenoflora wither and that turns the sentients to being a machine/,aggressive?

[bright temple]

YOOOOOOO

[lean garden]

damn how did you get marie to like you so fast

[bright temple]

i got my first tekolyst artifact

[lean garden]

in essence yes?

the very last part no, all it did was rightfully anger the sentients, and return them back into the state we see them at in the game, where we have a large sentient controlling smaller sentients

[bright temple]

teensy cutscene of them getting it afterwards

[lean garden]

oh so thats the void expedition

I wonder if he knows rell is dead lol

[bright temple]

or is he

[spare relic]

So the xenoflora is something that the sentients cherished right?

[lean garden]

deeply

[spare relic]

Ohhh like that alrightt2🤔

[lean garden]

destroying all of it basically lobotomised the general sentient population

[spare relic]

Is it like their source of energy?

[lean garden]

no its the source of their individuality

every drone a person

and now a person no more

[spare relic]

Ohhh like their sanity?

[lean garden]

not sanity

like a drone without the xenoflora spores

will revert to being part of the hive-mind

which means being part of the larger sentient

because without the spores it needs orders

and the larger sentient has them

[spare relic]

Ohhhh like that damnn

Thankss for confirmingg

[kind sparrow]

Is our goal to live in tau?

[lean garden]

eh, not quite

[lean garden]

if you mean right now no

we're tracking albrecht

[kind sparrow]

So our goal is to strip it bare of resources hmm

[lean garden]

what the

[kind sparrow]

?

[lean garden]

ok so who is the "we" here

[silk atlas]

What????

Literally who said that

[wise quiver]

My biggest weirdness with all this is Why. We know sentients can be...well, sentient, without the flower(hunhow, natah, erra) we know they can reproduce/make sentients that are self aware(natah/erra), so like...why wasn't there just a massive population of sentients like natah/erra, why were the shards, and thus t hem becoming self aware, so important?

[bronze cliff]

more big sentients = possible conflict i guess? better that only a few big brained sentients rule over the small no-thought ones

[wise quiver]

"big"? Natah and Erra aren't big. I mean, Amar we see, they seem fine.

The flowers seem weirdly pointless unless they explain why the sentients are all sentient somehow.

The issue being needing to explain how/why hunhow and the others don't need a steady supply of the flowers to stay sentient like the others.

[lean garden]

you can make a good guess based on what adis says

the smaller sentients return to the hive-mind

and we see how that looks like the first time we meet hunhow

all his drones are under/part of him

but with the flowers all those drones would be individuals

[wise quiver]

Maybe i'm a psychopath, but why does that matter when they can have children/reproduce in other ways without the flowers and make individuals.

[lean garden]

because that makes more hive-minds and the drones still arent individuals

[wise quiver]

Natah is not a hive mind though?

[lean garden]

there are other sentient mimics out there

[wise quiver]

Hunhow, Natah, Erra are all individuals, their own personalities and the like.

[lean garden]

shes the mimic queen

hunhow has his drones and erra had the narmer sentients

[wise quiver]

She's hunhow's daughter and younger sibling of Erra(seemingly if I remember correctly.).

The fact remains Hunhow had kids who were individuals.

[lean garden]

which doesnt change the fact that with the flowers even mere drones become individuals

hunhows fragments can all become people

[wise quiver]

Right but why is that an issue in the first place.

When, I assume, Tau would have lots of beings like Hunhow/Erra/Natah?

[lean garden]

the issue for the sentients is that in the old peace that was just nuked to oblivion

[wise quiver]

Why isn't tau baseline full of beings like Erra?

Or Amar?

[lean garden]

now no drone is an individual

[wise quiver]

Right, but unless the flowers made hunhow an individual it shouldn't matter.

[lean garden]

why

[wise quiver]

Because they would have a population of individuals already

Beings like Erra, Amar, etc.

[lean garden]

and then they arrived on tau, smelt the flowers and then their population of individuals boomed

[wise quiver]

We're missing a vital piece of information which is "Why aren't there more beings like Hunhow"

[wise quiver]

Hunhow doesn't need the flowers to stay sentient like the others, they awoke to sentience some other way, seemingly(if memory serves) on the way to tau.

[lean garden]

there were, they also fought in the old war, the eidolon was one of them

[lean garden]

ok and?

[wise quiver]

Why are the fragments made to be the main population of sentients.

They clearly had a means to reproduce individual without the reliance upon the flower

[lean garden]

because each larger sentient had a whole bunch of fragments and each fragment became a person based on what adis tells us

[lean garden]

which they obviously did

[wise quiver]

Clearly they didn't because how many of them do you see in the old peace?

I recall seeing...excatly one. Amar. As far as I understand it every single other sentient is a fragment turned individual

[lean garden]

I dont see why sentient reproduction via non-flower means and sentient production via flower must be mutually exclusive

[lean garden]

adis is literally another

[wise quiver]

Adis needs the flowers.

[lean garden]

not to mention hunhow and praghasa exist then, you also just dont see them

[lean garden]

to heal other sentients

adis doesnt turn red when he runs out spores

he turns red like a 2018-2020 tiktoker

[wise quiver]

Because it seems weirdly pointless from a story perspective. These flowers were invented just to have seemingly something for ballas to defile or something.

The flowers aren't tied to Hunhow's individuality and it's not explained why

[lean garden]

or consider that its going to lead into tau 2026

because theyve already chekov'd that another like adis might exist

[wise quiver]

They could have done that so many other ways rather than giving us 2 distinctly different ways for the sentients to be sentient.

[silk atlas]

I think "sentient" and "not being taken over by a hivemind" are being conflated here.

[wise quiver]

We have "they became sentient with time as per self evolving AI trope" which seems to be the method behind Hunhow/Praghasa/Eidolon. And then the "Xenoflora makes fragments into full individuals like Hunhow."

[wise quiver]

No, it's straight up said the flower makes them an individual, a person.

No flower, no person.

[lean garden]

perhaps you might consider that it provides and avenue for sentient population reconstruction even after being afflicted by the void

but also why is there a hyper stickler in there being more than one way

[wise quiver]

They could have done that so many other ways, infact we had a way for them to do that, the unum kuva.

I just want it explained as to how the flowers connect, if at all, to Hunhow's individuality.

And by hunhow's I mean "the other individual sentients we know of"

[silk atlas]

Wouldn't be the first time we've had a collective sapient being, I'll say.

[lean garden]

not even the second really

[lean garden]

you keep saying "they could have done it so many other ways"

but this is also one of the many other ways

[wise quiver]

It's a bad way because they don't explain stuff

We have contradictions to the narrative

[lean garden]

its not a damn contradiction if its an add on what

[silk atlas]

Because you still have to have different parts in the hivemind doing different things anyway, so it shouldn't be shocking that some of them have more "autonomy". They screwed up Natah enough for her not to wanna do things she's order to, and Hunhow was sitting on his bum for ages and watched his son be turned into a whipping mule and his daughter a literal husk..

[wise quiver]

Hunhow is an individual. Hunhow's individuality is not limited due to a flower like the sentients we see in the old war. This is not explained and thus provides a weird situation of "why was killing the flowers so important?"

Better question, why tie the free will of your species to a flower when you can just make children with free will without the flower.

[silk atlas]

So the whole "hivemind" thing isn't nearly as cut and dry, especially when part of what they mentioned about the flowers is that they're directionless and want to take orders from someone.

[wise quiver]

Finally worded my gripe correctly.

[lean garden]

why was killing the flowers so important? it means that the fragments stop being people! its a genocide of that many individuals

[copper mountain]

I'd assume that making full individual children is much more taxing or expensive to the host Sentient, similar to how pregnancy is for humans. Fragmentation, by contrast, seems to be extremely easy given that Hunhow is able to send out scouts almost as soon as Tyl Regor wakes him up again.

[wise quiver]

That's just an assumption, if they explained that in the quest I'd be fine.

[silk atlas]

Most Sentients that aren't flowered aren't acting out of their own accord, and the ones that do have stuff that is terribly wrong with them mentally.

[wise quiver]

But they don't.

[copper mountain]

Unfortunately Warframe is a game where 50% of the story is assumption though
I get the frustration; but it's definitely not the first time this has been the case

[wise quiver]

Instead we have these contradictions and no explainations.

[lean garden]

what contradictions

[copper mountain]

Maybe we'll get another Jade's Promise, i.e., extremely impactful lore drop quietly hidden in a hotfix

[lean garden]

youve said it twice but at no point have you brought up a contradiction

[wise quiver]

Better question, why tie the free will of your species to a flower when you can just make children with free will without the flower.

[lean garden]

the sentients didnt stop reproducing the "normal" way because we see those sentients in the quest and later down the timeline

[wise quiver]

The only ones I know of are amar, adis, maybe itzem?

[lean garden]

itzam has a drone model

[wise quiver]

So yeah, Itzem is a flower sentient.

[lean garden]

the existence of amar there confirms the off-screen existence of nira and boreal

we have natah and erra

[wise quiver]

Right, we knew they existed.

And none of them require the flower to be an individual.

[lean garden]

so we know the sentients didnt cancel on the normal production plan

[wise quiver]

Why is this not the norm

[lean garden]

so why would that contradict the existence of flower sentients

[wise quiver]

Why is the flower so important to their individuality.

The flower sentients were made up specifically to have something for ballas to be evil, they don't need to exist and they raise so many questions of how/where the other sentients self awareness came from.

What came first, the flower, or the self awareness?

If the flower, why do hunhow, natah, erra, not need it like every other sentient?

[lean garden]

itzam states that the sentients slowly gained their sentience on their journey to tau

[wise quiver]

Cool. So, from a story perspective why do the flowers exist

Make every sentient be an individual.

It's clearly possible.

[silk atlas]

Natah specifically was because she was absolute messed up by Ballas's tinkering from infiltration with all that Margulis junk.

[wise quiver]

I don't see that being related to the flower stuff.

[lean garden]

Im guessing here, but if you needed a way to take down enough sentients to make an international incident, you need to make a way for it to be accomplished via a method that isnt going to make you question "why were the orokin in trouble in the first place"

this is achieved by the fragments losing their personhood, a genocide achieved not by the lacking might of the empire but by the deceit from the orokin

[wise quiver]

Except that wasn't the reason. it was literally just to restart the war. Sure, you take away their personhood, but a gun that loses it's sentience can still be used to shoot people.

Because that's all the flowers do really is make the fragments sentient

Kill the flowers and all you've done is made the hive queens angry and give them a swarm of obedient drones to hit you with.

[silk atlas]

You're right. It's not. Because they're gone by this point and we should remember that these few acting of their own accord are weird and not just something thrown around, since most of the other Sentients are the mindless guys. These "individual" Sentients were still made under the greater purpose to serve the hivemind, and only started acting beyond their realm when stuff was very wrong. Natah getting brainwashed, Hunhow drowning himself for ages while watching the world burn, Erra realizing Ballas is a massive nut. We even have most of those -lyst drones as blue individuals in the Old Peace.

[wise quiver]

As Bau clarified, Itza stated they became sentient/self aware/individual on their trip from origin to tau.

[lean garden]

Im talking about a reason from the writers perspective not the orokin

[wise quiver]

They could have done anything else, like a void bomb that sterilizes the sentients.

[lean garden]

that would then be a contradiction

[wise quiver]

Explain.

[lean garden]

because then all the sentients wouldnt deem the trip back to origin a sacrifice if they were all sterile to begin with

theyd just do it

[wise quiver]

Where is it said it was a sacrifice.

[silk atlas]

I'll bring up the Infested as a non-individual but still very much sentient being(s?).

[wise quiver]

Irrelevant to the topic.

[ocean hamlet]

its worth noting that, from my understanding of dialogue during the quest, the flowers granting individuality was a happy accident.
the flowers are the first ever recorded xenoflora according to some of the grineer you fight alongside during the quest, meaning it wasnt made by the sentients

[silk atlas]

I bring it up because I'm proposing the idea you don't have to be an individual to be sentient, something you keep trying to blur as one thing.

[lean garden]

Lotus: "All missions to the Origin system required a sacrifice. Me and my kind became barren when crossing the gap. It is the one flaw that we never overcame."

[wise quiver]

Look, all they had t o do was throw in a line about how Adis was made in some special way to infuse them with a regenerating flower so they don't have to constantly consume it, and that some other sentients were being made with such a thing but it's slow due to it needing a lot of the flowers to do. I'd understand then.

But having some sentients just be individuals while others aren't for the sake of "oh no, muh genocide" is bad.

[wise quiver]

Because they used the word to describe the sentients, it's...confusing yes.

There are the Sentients race, Sentients as "self aware individuals" and...yeah

[silk atlas]

Okay wait what is the actual quote from Itzam, hold on

[wise quiver]

It honestly doesn't matter.

[ocean hamlet]

the sentients could still evolve, but considering they evolve as a hive, that would mean most of the actual processing power resides within one 'nexus' being, aka Hunhow, and theres no simple way to resolve that. even Erra and Natah were still subject to Hunhow's orders, they were still a part of the collective, but were probably given their own cognitive function to take away processing load from Hunhow.

as a terraforming mechanism, its better to maintain the hivemind, as that maintains parity and synchronicity across all subordinate machines. and if its not in their directive, they have no reason to develop large scale individuality.
hence, the flower being a happy accident. the flower allowed individual sentients to experience, well, individual cognitive function, which is what allowed for them to ignore orders from the hive and seek individual survival, aka aim for peace and the end of a war.

thats my interpretation of everything at least

[lean garden]

gotta wait for the transcript

[wise quiver]

Key thing here, keeeey thing, is that Erra and Natah were individuals still, which is a very big important thing that Adis mentions that the flowers give. The flowers give the shards/fragments/lysts individuality which lets them overcome the hive-mind.

[ocean hamlet]

you're missing the difference between individual and subordinate/subroutine

its light daughter boards in electronics

[wise quiver]

Wait, Erra disobeyed hunhow didn't he? When he sided with Ballas n stuff?

[ocean hamlet]

sure, they're technically "separate" circuits with their own processors, their own ram, their own memory, and their own components and functions, but they're still a part of the larger board and are limited by what the larger board lets it do

[wise quiver]

Okay what I'm getting at, because this is what I understood from the quest.

[ocean hamlet]

one could argue he was doing what he was programmed to do. the sentients follow orokin orders, simple as that.

[lean garden]

Actually he wasnt, at least according to hunhow, because he let ballas get the better of him

space grandpa is disappointed in space uncle

[wise quiver]

A -lyst type sentient has no personality, no real thoughts, is effectively a roomba yeah? We agree on that much.

They eat a flower. They suddenly then become a full person, thoughts, pesonality, a desire to do more than vacuum up dirt from the ground.

[lean garden]

uhuh

[ocean hamlet]

essentially

[wise quiver]

My gripe, is that DE did not have to do that.

And by doing that, have raised the question on why even have there be Sentients that became individuals without the flowers.

If every Sentient is an individual, is "sentient" because of the flower, with only a select few being 'specially made/infused' with the flower essence(hunhow, natah, amar, etc) I would be FINE.

[flint glade]

We may see how on the Tau actual release

[ocean hamlet]

what im trying to get at is that theres a difference between individuality and 'freedom', so to speak

[wise quiver]

But the fact that "some" Sentients are just 'magically sentient' and others 'require a flower' seems needlessly complex.

[wise quiver]

The Sentients have it in themselves to have made roombas that were individuals/freedom without the flower.

[ocean hamlet]

i think you're missing the point of the sentients originally being terraforming machines

to divide workload, a supercomputer can delegate subroutines which can act on their own, but are still subject to the directive of the host machine

[wise quiver]

Yes, because they evolve/change. Hunhow was a carpenter and became a hive ship of death.

[ocean hamlet]

thats why some sentients possess a level of individuality and cognitive function, while most dont

[wise quiver]

I understand that.

[silk atlas]

Hell, even Amar reverted back to being pretty "feral" after he got Archon'd

[ocean hamlet]

Erra and Natah were direct subroutines of Hunhow, which is why they have individuality, but not freedom from the network

the flower seems to have granted the individual sentients freedom from the network

[wise quiver]

I don't see how that's the case when everything I've seen has shown that they clearly aren't controlled by Hunhow.

[ocean hamlet]

the lotus said fairly regularly she would hear the call of Hunhow prior to us meeting him

[fluid pewter]

Please tell me y’all have noticed the absolute cinema reference

I need to know desperately that I’m not that chronically online

[waxen mesa]

I swear we've heard the term hunhullis (or however its spelled) before old peace. am i crazy?

[lean garden]

where?

[ocean hamlet]

iirc, it was in The New Strange

[fluid pewter]

Roathe boss fight

[wise quiver]

That means it's only worth/useful to subordinates and does nothing for the big ones, to which I retort....why are there subordinates in the first place

[lean garden]

you are crazy yes

[fluid pewter]

That’s kinda how…literally any division of labor works

[silk atlas]

Nothing in New Strange about him

[fluid pewter]

Which is how you’d terraform an entire solar system