lore-discussion

[rose estuary]

The old peace is actually the start of warframe 2

[proper barn]

We know we are getting a tau update in 2026

[twin wigeon]

New star chart, new enemies, new system

[proper barn]

that's not what 2 means.

[twin wigeon]

2 is a number

Okay I gotta leave before I cause more brain damage than torid incarnon has

[silent tundra]

Can Warframes sleep?

Adding onto that, can they dream

[proper barn]

They "could" I guess to both. Just the ones we use aren't sapient enough to do so probably.

[pale cedar]

Who nurtures you in your times of rest? Who restores your battle-torn frame, day after day after day? Whose milk enriches your kindred flesh with endless strength and vigor? It can only be me

-Helminth

[proper barn]

Rest doesn't mean sleep really. But also this was to the tenno.

[pale cedar]

Rest can mean sleep

[silent tundra]

I see

Okay

[pale cedar]

Also frames are very much sapient enough to sleep

[ashen pulsar]

Probably not

Maybe the og ones could

[proper barn]

I mean umbra was made later

And he probably can.

Its more about how they are made and not when.

[twin wigeon]

yk its still so cute knowing that umbra has walked around the orbiter on a whim

[ashen pulsar]

yeah

[hidden cove]

So was Cyte-09 actually fully made, but then completely vanished, but the batch still existed and that's what Albrecht gave to Quincy, yeah?

Temple on the other hand was never made into a Warframe by Ballas because of rebellion or something like that

I can see how Cyte-09 would have a Prime, but what about Temple?

Maybe Temple Prime was created but it's because of their behaviour that Ballas never made an official base Temple?

[strange plinth]

i think they'll probably prime themself w/ materials from the comet

[hidden cove]

That's... a hilarious idea actually

Lavos primed himself. It would be funny if Temple did too

Sitting on the comet for god knows how long, Temple eventually gets bored of waiting and playing music

[mystic lynx]

Temple probably just sleeps

Sets lizzie as a timer

Actually yeah Flare said Lizzie will make sure it doesn't oversleep

[celest needle]

Who did make the Techrot? Albrecht? Höllvania?

I am really confused on their origin

[strange plinth]

infestation origin is unknown
the techrot was there before albrecht was, and the scaldra were messing with it for a few years before albrecht arrived
but still no known origin

[celest needle]

So, It just happened?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1068639836388458496/1252990706700521614/3x_10-ezgif.com-webp-to-gif-converter.gif

[hidden cove]

That's the impression I'm getting.

Techrot was literally 'just there'

the whole time

[pallid spoke]

1999's release had DE rewrite/retcon what we thought we knew about the Infestation's origin. They even changed a bunch of Lotus' dialouge in Once Awake to reflect that now "the Infestation predates the Orokin."

[strange plinth]

wasn't really a retcon as much as a clarification
it never said that they created it, the new dialogue just makes it clearer

[hidden cove]

I mean both can be true

Infestation is a 'cultured' strain of Techrot, isn't it?

Its origins predate the Orokin but Infestation itself was also made by the Orokin cultivating Techrot

[celest needle]

"Oh hey ancient zombie virus from millennia ago... We should use to to fight the sentients."

[strange plinth]

the helminth is cultured from the infestation, which is sorta the general strain from my understanding
techrot is a primal form of it, in a way

[hidden cove]

What about the Grey Strain?

Oh wait that's specific to Deimos

[strange plinth]

strain exclusive to deimos, yea
makes things big

[hidden cove]

aye

[strange plinth]

yea sorta
they had been dealing with it for a while before they weaponized it against the sentients iirc, so they knew what it was capable of
i think ballas says something about it being cultivated on outer colonies + the destruction of the arctic hive cluster ending the 18th radiation war thing

[pallid spoke]

There were how many radiation wars?
No wonder Earth is as mutated as it is.

[hidden cove]

It's crazy to me how the Techrot is so virulent and capable of devouring literal technology but it was otherwise just chilling in the crust of the earth until it broke out in Hollvania

Maybe it was unearthed when Hollvania was being constructed (tunnels, subways)

Also, the fact it eats technology.

[celest needle]

And, another question about Techrot, can it infect humans and at least how does Techrot infect machines. Cause I know Techrot does actively hunt people but unlike the infestation it's main priority is targeting machinery and at least seems to be less capable of infecting humans as the infestation of the current time, and speaking of machinery despite the amount of Techrot seen in Höllvania alone even in the central mall, isn't that like, bad? There is traces of it in the Mall but its just, sitting there?

[hidden cove]

It does infect humans and other organisms.

if you play Isleweaver, Neci will say that she was smoking Effervon to kill the Techrot in her lungs

And the Scaldra in general literally wear packets and canisters of Effervon on their bodies to disintegrate them when they die so the Techrot can't subsume their bodies

[strange plinth]

yea, eleanor was investigating cases of it in humans, particularly the early phases, as "testudo syndrome"
the techrot in the mall would definitely be an issue, but it doesn't seem to be actively spreading or taking anyone
(also loop shenanigans)

[restive river]

They were messing it with it around the same time he was there

[hidden cove]

The Techrot in the mall might not be overtaking the place because of the Drifter's presence

[restive river]

Nothing points to him being involved tho
Other than his eye being everywhere

[hidden cove]

The Infestation in general is terrified of the Void. Techrot would be too, especially considering it all has a hivemind that transcends time

Drifter and Operator are 'Void demons', basically made of the stuff.

[restive river]

It didn’t progress at all before the Drifter got there, remember that they got there at the end of the year..

[hidden cove]

I think it's also said or implied that your presence slows down the infection in the Protos too

[strange plinth]

mall was the same then too, yea

[restive river]

It has nothing to do with Drifter

[restive river]

That’s transference.

[strange plinth]

ah, must've misremembered that bit

[hidden cove]

But I haven't picked the 'Forget' option in the KIM, so I don't remember all the conversations (I cbf to go through history lmao)

I refuse to make them forget

[restive river]

I know he showed up in 1998, not sure about 97

[strange turtle]

It ravaged the outer colonies

"Our hubris shone like a black star… for our technology, our war-machines were your kin. How easily you turned them against us. We were forced to older means. Not circuits, nor light… but flesh and disease. Our horrors past, our ravaged outer colonies… became gardens!"

We cultured the infestation, conceiving of a hybrid. Transformed, but only just. The Helminth was created, born to yield these new warriors, worthy of battle against you, the great and terrible Hunhow."

[strange plinth]

both ravaged and grown there ig
but yea i misremembered the exact wording when i mentioned it up there

[strange turtle]

I think it’s just meant to be like, they took it from there

Like taking a plant from a garden (or farm, natural area etc) and then working on it in the lab

[strange plinth]

fair point, that makes sense

[celest needle]

I've wondered for a while. Do Warframes need oxygen? For Grinner, Corpus, and Murmer survival missions, they're trying to choke you out by turning off Life Support, which means no oxygen, but in Archwing missions and a few cutscenes, you are just out in space, so not even anything covering you, simply out in the vacuum or underwater. So, do Warframes need oxygen? I'd expect they breathe through somewhere, though. Considering they can survive some incredibly tough situations and even use hazardous elements like Gas and Radiation, they don't seem to be, or are, resistant to them. But why do we even need life support on these kinds of missions? I can get it for the infested with their spores, but oxygen for the biomechanical war machines with very very tough skin?

[strange plinth]

archwings provide oxygen (mag prime codex iirc?), the warframes do need it, for one reason or another

[proper barn]

the archwings give oxgyen.

[celest needle]

How though?

[proper barn]

through

the Connection i guess?

[odd prairie]

i mean xaku is a walking pile of corpses but he somehow needs oxygen

[proper barn]

they.

[swift sentinel]

Xaku is not really a corpse, they're an amalgamation

[odd prairie]

that still somehow needs oxygen

[swift sentinel]

A new fused being

[proper barn]

yeah Xaku is more base skeleton.

they are cool.

i like how the prime skeleton is ghostlike on them.

[odd prairie]

its just a gameplay mechanic i dont think they thought it through for later frames

[swift sentinel]

The base form is still a Warframe, just a very thin one

The Prime is the Void energy's thing

[proper barn]

I think it might be that they put extra skeletons on warfarmes.

that might be it lmao.

i wouldn't be supirsed by it.

[strange plinth]

yea the warframes are still organic
xaku's no exception to that, despite their origin

[odd prairie]

i dont mind the oxygen thing

[proper barn]

yee.

it's fine.

[odd prairie]

its a mechanic it doesnt always need to make sense

[proper barn]

also true.

[odd prairie]

wisp has no feet but still walks

[proper barn]

well Wisp mostly floats

cuz her Animation was the first to do that.

btw

[odd prairie]

she still sticks to the floor

[swift sentinel]

I don't think they ever say oxygen specifically, just generic life support, like Survival missions

[odd prairie]

maybe the enemies hack our system

[proper barn]

i think the thing about surival

is like that they are pouring gas

or spores or something into the tile and that might actually kill our warframes at somepoint.

[odd prairie]

we can "die" from stabbing

[proper barn]

the warframe

or the tenno?

[odd prairie]

both

you can cripple a warframe weve seen it

[proper barn]

The tenno no

ballas stabs us and throws us into a portal

[odd prairie]

operators can very much be killed

[proper barn]

to slow us down.

[odd prairie]

it just takes alot

[proper barn]

we don't die in the new war.

[restive river]

The base is a skeleton with pieces around them held together by void tendrils
The prime is just void energy with a shell, vibrating golden bits in the shape of a skeleton

[proper barn]

we just get displaced.

[restive river]

Tenno can die it’s just very difficult to kill us

[odd prairie]

the war took many lives

[proper barn]

we probably can. at some point.

[odd prairie]

even the tenno

[restive river]

No?

[proper barn]

idk if that's said.

[restive river]

It’s not

[odd prairie]

there are multiple pieces of lore that suggest some operators burned themselves out during the war

[restive river]

We at most see a dead rhino which does not mean that any tenno died

[restive river]

Which war and what lore, what’s your source?

[odd prairie]

our operator nearly killing themselves to reenter our frames

[restive river]

Huh

[swift sentinel]

When did that happen?

[restive river]

It didn’t?

[odd prairie]

ordis warns you the whole time its too dangerous to keep going

[restive river]

Again, source?

When was this?

[swift sentinel]

That's the dream Ordis from War Within isn't it

[odd prairie]

when you try to regain control of your frame from queen influence

your operator starts screaming in pain like its killing them

so while its not shown there is a clear limit to transference

[restive river]

They’re in pain due to the continuity process

Operator: "My warframe. It's still there."

Ordis: "Haven't you been listening? The Transference system is fried!"

[The Operator looks briefly at the Somatic Link and shakes their head.]

Operator: "I don't need it anymore."

[The Operator looks outward and the Tenno is prompted to activate Transference. Upon doing so, the screen slowly fades into white as the Tenno's consciousness is projected thousands of kilometres away, and Ordis' voice tapers off.]

Ordis: "Operator, where are you going? Don't leave meeeeee…."

[odd prairie]

im just saying is it that unplausible some operators might have burned themselves out

trying to fight longer then they shoudl

[restive river]

It is if you can’t source anything like that occurring

[odd prairie]

thats why i said its plausible

not outright shown

[restive river]

It’s
Not plausible if nothing even suggests that?

[pale cedar]

Operator still kept the gaming chair though cuz gaming chairs are cool

[odd prairie]

also there were tons of failed operators

before the process was perfected

[restive river]

Comfier to pilot your drone

[restive river]

Source?

[odd prairie]

the literal cutscene explaining how some of the kids went comatose or insane before they perfected the process

[restive river]

Which cutscene
What’s the quote

[strange plinth]

if you're talking about the vitruvian, that was about the warframes, not the tenno

[odd prairie]

i dont remember the quest but its the ones where they explain the process

oh i got confused then

still would like to see in future what forcing transference does to an operator

its alot of room for horrifying nightmares

[restive river]

Nothing?

[odd prairie]

transplanting your mind into a hollow shell made of magic metal has to have some flaws

[restive river]

They were all forced to do it
That’s
The second dream, they were forced to do it to

[pale cedar]

The only failed Operators we know of only failed because they died

[odd prairie]

probably cause it was too much too soon

[restive river]

The warframes are still people and still have remnants of their humanity, originally Transference was even used to help the frames.

[strange plinth]

there's somewhat of that in the jade memory feathers?
or at least, that operator really didn't want to be there

[restive river]

They’re more so upset and Jade calms them and iirc puts them to sleep

[odd prairie]

i mean umbra doesnt seem to happy at us trying to enter his head

[pale cedar]

Back when Knightmareframe lost his glyph people were arguing that the Warframes we make aren't human

[odd prairie]

managed to resist us

[restive river]

Neither were the hex

Like resistance can happen

[pale cedar]

They can kick us out anytime

[restive river]

It’s just not always something that happens
Also Umbra’s situation was explicitly special

[odd prairie]

so like thats what im saying what would happen if a transference fails horribly and somehow it leaves a part of the operator behind

[pale cedar]

Jade put hers to sleep

[odd prairie]

its gives room for plot and space torture

[restive river]

Heck the first transference was with a feral Rhino

[odd prairie]

cause what is warframe if not space trauma

[restive river]

I think you missed Rell completely abandoning his body to stay in Harrow and seal Wally

Rell didn’t have the dream and once freed he moved on

[odd prairie]

that is good but id like to explore it from a more cosmic horror angle i guess

[pale cedar]

What happens if it leaves a part of Operator behind?

The War Within

[restive river]

Chains of Harrow was cosmic horror what-

[odd prairie]

rells story is more sad to me then cosmic horror

[restive river]

I mean
Wally

[odd prairie]

ok what i mean is

[restive river]

My autocorrect is
Terrible 😭

[odd prairie]

imagine the concept of an insane operator who left a part of them in a frame

and goes full pscyho to get it back

[restive river]

I don’t think thats how transference works

[odd prairie]

its psuedo magic sci fi

you can somehow bend it to work

[restive river]

It still has a degree of rules?

[pale cedar]

Wanna see an insane cosmic horror?

Stand in the Origin System as both Drifter and Operator

[restive river]

Like we are in the cosmic horror arc rn

[odd prairie]

yeah but i personally want more i guess horror like stuff again

[pale cedar]

Sure just move the Zariman

[odd prairie]

being hunted by a threat even beyond a warframe

[restive river]

Wally:

[odd prairie]

wall isnt scary

im sorry

[restive river]

The Operstor’s certainly afraid

[odd prairie]

in terms of eldrich horror hes honestly kind of mid

[restive river]

What is “scary” is subjective anyway so

Wally is an eldritch entity that we are leading up towards going up against

Chekov’s gun says he will likely get his finger and when he does he will be the big threat you’re describing

[odd prairie]

eldrich horror doesnt need to be massive scale tho

sometimes the smaller more intimate stuff works too

[pale cedar]

Distorted by vague horrors, we kept the Zariman survivors within a secret Reservoir

[restive river]

Keep in mind from the Tenno’s perspective Wally is a massive terrifying threat, heck he was why Chains of Harrow was scary.

[odd prairie]

eh agree to disagree i guess

i find him more funny then anything

[restive river]

Sure

The Operator doesn’t

[odd prairie]

i mean my idea can work if you do another kahl style side thing

[restive river]

I can see us getting something akin to Chains of Harrow since, again, he’s why that was horror
But that would likely be a bit down the line as we still have Tau

[pale cedar]

I don't think any character in this game finds Wally funny

[odd prairie]

as an avid eldrich horror enjoyer you grow numb to some of it

stalker used to be scary until you know what

now i just feel bad for the guy

[pale cedar]

Yeah but you personally not being afraid doesn't mean you lorewise don't

[hazy prism]

I have a question, since all space travel works by using the Void, from Solar Rails to Reliquary drives, do we know what are the specific differences between them?

[odd prairie]

never said wally isnt scary just that we could do with a chains fo harrow style quest again

more overtly horror themed

[restive river]

Closest we got recently was the Zariman with bits and pieces of horror in the current arc

Like
The hex dying is horrific

[strange plinth]

solar rails are, well, rails
they have a set path
reliquary drives can ignore them, and travel wherever, basically, through void jumps

[hazy prism]

so do the Solar Rails also use a finger?

[odd prairie]

its a space train basically

[restive river]

Rails are a freeway
Reliquaries are you have a plane

[odd prairie]

it goes on a set path

[restive river]

Unknown, likely not
Just connected to the heart like all other void tech

[odd prairie]

wally only has so many fingers to take

or i assume so

[restive river]

There both is one original and multiple originals
There are also numerous copies

[pale cedar]

They just clone them

[restive river]

One finger was cut off but multiple fell
Somehow they were replaced too

[odd prairie]

if his toes give space void travel i wonder what an eye would do

if he had them

[restive river]

There’s nothing that states that from what I recall and that’s assuming they can just biologically replicate a void based being

[hazy prism]

so the finger we have on the Railjack is probably a copy, and just a little additional question, does this mean Solar Rails are safer?
since it's just using a path/tunnel through the void rather than whatever reliquary drives do

[restive river]

I don’t think its really body part dependent, the tenno as a whole have a piece too so

[odd prairie]

nowhere is safe in the origin system

some are just safer

[restive river]

It is very likely a copy but Wally can still move and communicate through it

He is connected to all pieces of himself, including the one we posses

[odd prairie]

solar rail is likely a save method of travel tho since it doesnt involve using an eldrichs gods digits

[hazy prism]

alright thank you!

[restive river]

He aint a god but
Semantics

[odd prairie]

he is if you worship him

[restive river]

Yeah maybe
Don’t do that

[odd prairie]

all hail the big finger

[restive river]

Same energy as an Orokin worshipper

[odd prairie]

someones bound to do it

[pale cedar]

They're stated as replicas which usually implies cloning

[hazy prism]

is the "Story and History" page on the new warframe wiki accurate, like I can just use it as a base reference for events and the order they happened in?

[restive river]

Usually but this ain’t some normal thing to just replicate, that’s my issue with saying its cloning

[hazy prism]

cause I swear I thought the Zariman 10-0 was before the Tau sentient project

[odd prairie]

well i dont see how else it could work

[restive river]

It’s better but I’d use the Orokin Archives

[odd prairie]

did he give them replicas on purpose then?

[restive river]

Writers have stated the sentients went first, Orokin got impatient then the Zariman was made and we know the rest

[restive river]

No

[pale cedar]

Was till DE confirmed it wasn't

[hazy prism]

ok, so I wasn't completely misremembering things

[restive river]

Can’t post the article but I got the image

[strange plinth]

which is still a weird decision imo but whatever i'm not a writer. maybe they have something else planned

[restive river]

There was like one thing that pointed to it, we were close to getting it but didnt get it til stated

[restive river]

It’s brought up in a Zariman tablet kinda, I remember finding it and realizing that “oh those loyal servants have to be the sentients, but that doesn’t work with the timeline that we know” and then it turned out that yeah they went first lol

It may also come up in Old Peace or Tau 2026 to some extent

[hazy prism]

so TL:DR
Albrecht enters the void, gets spooked, gets some fingers and uses said fingers to advance orokin tech, which enables the Orokin to potentially colonize other solar systems

Ballas and an archimedean worked together to get the Original Sentients to terraform and make a solar rail to Tau

Sentient Terraforming porject takes too long, some people get impatient and instead try to jump their with a reliquary drive which is the Zariman 10-0

[strange plinth]

yea basically, afaik

[strange turtle]

Wally finds Wally funny I think, probably thinks that mess with the Zariman was a hoot

But his opinions are kinda trash so

[pale cedar]

Maybe Vor finds him funny

[strange turtle]

Not even the “took too long” they literally just got impatient

It took too long for their taste, but far as we know it was all going as planned and they got antsy

[hazy prism]

I wonder if since Wally's first contact was Albrecht, who isn't the best person all round, it's what Wally based it's "personality"

[strange turtle]

Also it was actually a series of attempts and projects that culminated in the Zariman, they were that desperate

[restive river]

The Zariman was an Orokin project, the crew were forced by them to keep testing
We don’t know exactly what caused the crash but it seems it was Wally as he was aboard prior and aboard after

Also it’s likely less so the colonizing is what took so long and more so the fact the Sentients had to take the long way round due to the built in void weakness

Once they got there and finished up they decided they wanted it as their home tho
And I’m sure we’ll find out more about that with what is to come

[pale cedar]

With all the lore we been getting it seems Wally did cause it

[restive river]

if there’s any time to drop that the rails are finger powered it’d be the coming Tau updates
But I would assume they’re just voidtech like the frames and many other things

[restive river]

Yeah I’m def in the camp that it was him but nothing says specifically and that will likely stay that way

Unless he like
Outright says it to taunt us lol

[pale cedar]

Drifter says it was him

[restive river]

Which hey, that’d be in character
Him taunting and talking down to us

[restive river]

Drifter is somewhat unreliable on Wally as they do call him a god but they may also just be for simplification for those they’re speaking with?

[pale cedar]

Yeah

[strange turtle]

I’d hope they’d be normal voidtech, makes what the Railjacks Reliquary Drives do feel more special and like, unique

[strange plinth]

i mean, he says he caused the parents' madness during isleweaver iirc
he's not above taunting us with what he's done

[restive river]

Oh yeah for sure, I’m expecting more taunting while we beat him more :]

It’d just be another hit to us that yeah it wasn’t entirely the Orokin but also Wally that orchestrated it so he could get to us for some reason, likely to make our deal for whatever reason

I mean we do functionally act as eyes and ears for him so
That’s a good reason

But it also just seemed like he was watching anyway, somehow

[pale cedar]

Wally make parents mad so child make deal

[hazy prism]

I prefer the idea that the Zariman incident is human made accident, and from the perspective of Wally it's like a violation of their personal space

[proper barn]

WELLL they can't colonize other systems.

[hazy prism]

like he did make the adults insane and the children kill their parents, but it's like him dealing with pests and hoping they'll stay out

[proper barn]

i mean we know Wally made the parents kill their kids cuz he thought it would be intresting.

he says it was TEST. also none of the holdfasts had kids

that's why they have lasted so long.

[restive river]

He showed up the day of the jump so idk bout that

[proper barn]

and didn't go crazy at first.

[strange turtle]

Main issue is that loads of void trips and expeditions were done prior and he didn’t seem to mind

[restive river]

Wally also seemed to get joy from his actions, he’s not acting like he’s dealing with a pest but more so an experiment

[proper barn]

they get void travel which basiclly gives the system a super highway. there's never been a successfull jump outside of the Origin system.

[pale cedar]

I feel if it was just human error the children would've also gone mad

[strange turtle]

The Railjacks, Orokin Safety Towers, Albrecht’s expeditions, Void cloaking and whatever else there may have been

[restive river]

Wally’s main issue with any particular groups of human are directly pointed at Albrecht and the Orokin for using his power without his permission
This only partially applies to the Zariman as they were under Orokin command and rule

[restive river]

I vaguely remember an old theory that they didnt go mad cause they had more pliable minds???
Again
theory

The Orokin gave both adults and kids similar readings for dealing with the void so at least for the scientific experts they saw them as equal enough in terms of possible void experiences

[proper barn]

Well the TRAVEL to there takes so long and they don't hear back. Cuz the sentients go the long way without void travel. also the orokin wanted them all to die in the contrustion of the solar rail and they didn't.

[hazy prism]

Yeah, it was more what I had in mind before angels of Zariman came out but I do think a part of Wally just wanted to be left alone, and Albrecht entering the void and causing all of this made him somewhat vindictive

[pale cedar]

The Void is more Indifferent than Wally I doubt that is true

[restive river]

Oh same, I just remember it being a theory
I don’t think it’s correct lol

[restive river]

We don’t even know if he existed before Albrecht got there funnily enough

[hazy prism]

idk is it weird to see Wally in any sort of sympathetic light?

[pale cedar]

I feel if it was only human error we wouldn't have even met Wally

[restive river]

More evidence points towards him making Wally in some way rather than Wally existing prior, which we have some things (at least) for him predating it but it may be in a more “he was nothing same as the rest of the void til he wasn’t” akin to us and actual matter/the universe

[hazy prism]

on god is this another case of a creation of Albrecht being hated by his creation

[pale cedar]

Why would you sympathise with the person who gave you powers to kill your parents?

[restive river]

No, you’re human
However we have to keep in mind he is still dangerous and is doing horrible things on purpose, maliciously

[restive river]

At least to some extent it may be
In which case
Orokin moment!

Seriously they kept doing this-

Infested
Tenno
Grineer
Just to name a few

[strange turtle]

Themselves

[hazy prism]

well if it was real, than yes you'd be 100% right
but a part of storytelling is viewing the story from all perspectives
and Wally's perspective is just as interesting with things to pick at and see (Wally is still a monster by our standards and is aware of the pain and suffering they cause though)

[strange plinth]

nah
like ducky said, its important to note that he's dangerous on purpose, but he's not doing it for no reason. as far as he's concerned, he's been maimed and had a good portion of his power stolen, so he's striking back

[pale cedar]

Well this is talking about the story of Warframe and he is real in the story of Warframe

The argument of he isn't real is a weak argument

[restive river]

Which he barely even strikes back against the Orokin?
He’s hunting Albrecht but that’s kinda it

[restive river]

If he isn’t real then neither are the holdfasts, duvirians, our powers, our incarnons, etc etc etc…

It’s a very weak argument lol

[pale cedar]

If he isn't real then you can't sympathise with him at all

[restive river]

Like just cause something originates from the void does not make it less real when
Conceptual embodiment is concepts BECOMING real THROUGH the void

[hazy prism]

"real" as in we're talking about the lore and not as a character in the game

[restive river]

He’s real in lore.

All void made things are real in lore

Just made of and from the void reacting to emotions and concepts

Once nothing now something

[hazy prism]

I mean real as in they story/lore is fictional like the whole game is fictional (unless i missed something really important)

[restive river]

In universe: real
Irl: fiction
Yes?

[strange plinth]

could argue that the zariman incident is his strike against the orokin, but yea he spends a good amount of his time just going for albrecht

[restive river]

I mean if it is a strike then why did he wait so long? The Zariman wasn’t the first thing in the void after Albrecht

Heck Deimos and Lua were sitting in there and nothin happened

Nothing from him anyway

[pale cedar]

The point is by calling something not real your also making it impossible to sympathise with anyway so your argument for it makes no sense

[hazy prism]

#lore-discussion message
I was using the term "real" in response to you asking "Why would you sympathize with the person who gave you powers to kill your parents"
I'm sympathizing with them cause they're not real, and them killing drifter/operator's parents doesn't really mean anything outside of the story

[pale cedar]

99% of things Wally related are in the story so you can't really take it out of the story

So you have to judge his actions in the story where he is very real

[hazy prism]

I'm not saying Wally's innocent, or misunderstood, only that there is a sense that Wally might have done nothing if Albrecht hadn't entered the void (Since they wouldn't even exist), or even if the Orokin hadn't used his fingers for their void tech

[pale cedar]

The Orokin using his fingers for Void tech is the only thing I agree with there

Albrecht creating him though

Wally didn't have to do all the stuff he did after

[swift sentinel]

We need more information before we can make that judgement

[ocean geyser]

I thought the idea was that he kind of existed before hand, but Albrecht being Albrecht reshaped him into what he is now

[pale cedar]

It's CE if 100% true

Thus no Wally beforehand

[swift sentinel]

I'm not sure there's anyone in game that can 100% answer that question, so we only have speculation now

[pale cedar]

Albrecht said he created Wally
Sythel said he created Wally
The PC makes it a 50/50 gamble

[stray flare]

Hey chat, there is something that was bothering me since veilbraker...

Khal Garison. How many people theoretically does he has in it? I mean, we all know few that are npcs we can see, but it always bothered me, especially sicne non of the descriptors even shorten the range( Stronghold can be anywehere from few dozen to almost million active personel! And settlelment? From few people to few thousand!). Even if we use name, aka Garison, lowball is in houndreed, while high end is million. And if we use Roman Garison we are talking 24 thousand people give and take.

But to represent this force we see... Five people. I am sorry but it kinda boggles me. I began and will try to make the wider area of the drifter camp into a village but C'mon, how many peeps Khal have there?

[tall echo]

What we see is what he has

[silk atlas]

...enough. There's literally nothing about how many people are in the Garrison proper and it's not like DE particularly cares about giving any concrete headcount. He's one dude doing the most guerilla of guerilla warfare.

[tall echo]

Kahl himself says he wants to keep the operation small

[stray flare]

Yet each time we use his beacon he shows up with a new men, and aparently has many spaceships and wepaons to his name.

I kmow that he tries to keep hisboperation low key, but again, I wonder how small operation we talking, and what happens to the dudes we rescue during his missions...

[tall echo]

The rescued ppl usually go back to their factions

[silk atlas]

It's not elaborated on and not really important in the slightest

[tall echo]

Yea

[stray flare]

I know, I know. It is just one of those things that makes me wonder.

[tall echo]

Usual wf lore thing, unimportant things don't get explained beyond the most basic

And then we have the rift

[stray flare]

Again, the sole reason why I wonder is because his "garison" is super f*cking underwhelming. And before someone will say that I should then build it up, I do but it is besides the point

[stray flare]

Also, Guirella does not discredit from haveing operational camps counted in hundreeds. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOUR BATTLEFIELD IS ENTIRE SOLAR SYSTEM

[silk atlas]

I think you just have unreasonably high expectations on a piece of content they removed Archon Shards from and a single word you're disproportionatly stuck on the definition of.

[tall echo]

Isn't a garrison a location and not a number anyways

[silk atlas]

You've got a dude in a camp with like 4 other dudes and that's all it's gonna be

[celest needle]

How did Rell even get Harrow?

[tall echo]

great question

[hollow siren]

We don't really know anything of Harrow beyond his ties to Rell. For how important he is to the story, he has barely any lore for himself

[stiff beacon]

early red veil mightve lifted it for him

[strange turtle]

The rift?

[tall echo]

The thing from limbo's abilities

[strange turtle]

Ohh that Rift

[oblique siren]

Re Wally: He could almost be a Frankenstein Monster type situation. Abandoned by his creator, left to his own devices to find his way in the world. But where as F's Monster found some kindness to temper his traumatic coming into the world, Wally did not.

[restive river]

Wally’s allergic to love, he’ll never have what the monster had
Sidenote; the way the monster is described in the book goes insane 😭

[oblique siren]

It's been a loooong time since I read the description and admittedly, I have not read the book myself. I was a side character in a stage play that is very true to the book, though my coactor and friend at the time had read it so I heard about it from him.

I still like Tagfer's questions of maybe Wally wants love, but doesn't understand that, and so lashes out

[restive river]

He’s nothing like his modern depiction

[oblique siren]

I remember something about being yellowed? Like almost jaundiced skin

[restive river]

Like he’s this beautiful long black haired man that seems all good til you see those eyes

That was the big thing I remember, the long hair, being pretty but those eyes. Those dead eyes.

[oblique siren]

Oooh

Neato

[restive river]

Yee

Anyway
Walldo!

[oblique siren]

Walldo!

I will hug them

[restive river]

He seems to maybaps want what we got (existence, being a “something”??)

[oblique siren]

That is a threat

[restive river]

Ok good

[oblique siren]

XD

[restive river]

Cause he’s our literal abuser 😭

[oblique siren]

TRUE.

[restive river]

I understand wanting to help him or care for him but there’s a point where uh
No that’s not an option ):

[oblique siren]

Eirana, my Tenno, probably doesn't wanna hug them

[restive river]

This isn’t a “steven universe” situation as the meme goes

[oblique siren]

LOL

Yeah, different genres

[restive river]

My tenno def doesn’t, he caused the death of all our parents and both paths our selves went down were terrible!

[oblique siren]

We don't have to forgive Wally, that's for sure

[restive river]

Even if we can I don’t think we should, he’s not looking for forgiveness and def does not feel regret for what he did

Meanwhile Albrecht is also asking for forgiveness but he won’t see any cause despite his guilt and regret he’s still actively being terrible, the “greater good” idea only goes so far lol

[oblique siren]

Yuh. Besides, forgiveness isn't an important part of becoming a better person.
If Wally does want to be a Something and Someone, I hope that part their journey is learning to do better.

[restive river]

It’s also really funny he’s asking that primarily to an Orokin he helminthed

[restive river]

Same

[oblique siren]

Oh lol I hate any sort of "greater good" argument, be it in fiction or irl

Listen, Albretch, the only reason I'm trying for you is for Loid.

[restive river]

Tbh as much as it’d kinda suck I don’t think our tenno is the one to really help Wally?
Again, he’s our abuser, that’s too tenuous of a situation

[restive river]

LOID THE GOAT

[oblique siren]

If he breaks Loid's heart (again let's be real), my Operator and Drifter will kick Albretch's ass

[restive river]

I kinda doubt this arc will end in us helping Wally in any way, partially because there likely needs to be some way we deal with him that still results in his Murmur existing

[oblique siren]

YEAH. The option to be there would be nice though.

For some abuse victims, the ability to say "no, f you, you're on your own" is the ideal closure. But that's not for everyone.

I'm really curious to see where the story goes

[restive river]

Yeah, we shall see

Presently though
Tau, for some reason

Old Peace likely to learn whatever we need to learn as-well as push us towards actually wanting to go there and reminding us of lost powers

With Tau itself somehow fitting into this arc

Which tbh I can see them also wanting to do it just to do more with it later?
It depends on whats happening over there

[oblique siren]

Yesssss

[restive river]

I think one of the bigger ideas atm is that one of the original fingers is there for whatever reason

[oblique siren]

I'm excited. I hope we get to flesh out our Operator like we did with our Drifter

[restive river]

Same!

I’m very curious to see what the gameplay for old peace will be beyond the quest

[oblique siren]

I love Drifter, but Operator is who I identify more with.

Being a child and having adult responsibilities sure is like being an AuDHD adult in real life XD

[restive river]

Like are we gonna do more memory baths?
What about resources?
Blueprints?
We’re getting Uriel from the side story but will that be what has more gameplay with Old Peace just being a cinematic tease of what’s to come while showing us a piece of history we need to know about??

[oblique siren]

Ya ya :D

[restive river]

I really want Operator to talk to Kaya cause they both dislike being called a child

[oblique siren]

Yessss I'd love that

[restive river]

For somewhat different reasons ofc (Kaya is barely an adult, Operator is mentally not a child)

[cosmic badge]

Unique dialog for operator meeting ||kaya in the relay would go hard||

[oblique siren]

And yet, both are also still children in other ways, and should be allowed to be childlike still if they want to be

[proper barn]

I think they are doing the Devils triad to make sure we don't have a "i did the new war what do I do now?" Moment.

[restive river]

I still remember the devs talking about operators in relays 😭

[restive river]

The Operator cause they didnt really get a childhood after
The incident

[restive river]

I can see that, I’m just curious as to

• where the Triad will be
• will they supply the gameplay? If so, what?
• and ofc all the info they can give us

Roathe ESPECIALLY

[proper barn]

Yee

I know.

[restive river]

Imagine the secrets we can dig out from that man

I sure hope he still isn’t classist!

[cosmic badge]

I really wish they could add a specific version of the kim depending on if your drifter or operator where drifter has the normal version that is current but operator gets to have their own unique conversations with the hex

[oblique siren]

That's what I mean tho
If they want to spend a night staying up late with Ordis, eating chocolate until they're sick, laughing about some dumb video
I think they should c:

I haven't seen much yet if the Operator feels like they can't do this if they do want to, but maybe that's something we'll get the oportunity to flesh out in Old Peace!

[restive river]

That’d be a nice eventual update kinda thing, even if its like one or two convos each

[cosmic badge]

Yea

[oblique siren]

Oh I would love this. I know Eleanor had a conversation with Drifter worrying about The Kid, so I'd love to chat with her as the Operator

[restive river]

I think the fact they had an actual friend during that time will be huge for them

[oblique siren]

Plus, silly shenanigans with your Drifter's potential love interest ala Annoying Younger Sibling vibe? XD That would be so much fun

[oblique siren]

YEAH. A friend that we forgot..... ;A;

[restive river]

I kinda want a protoframe that’s a psycologist/therapist?

[restive river]

Adis
Our beloved
You did not deserve what occurred

[oblique siren]

I can't wait to learn more....

[restive river]

Also if the theory that Adis was Natah before being sent to “deal” with us is true then more trans symbolism for Lotus :O

[oblique siren]

OH

[restive river]

(It probably isn’t real)

[oblique siren]

That would be SO cool.

If not real, a very fun "What if" for fan fics c:

[restive river]

We don’t even know if Natah exists yet

Which if she doesn’t then uh.
We’re older than our mom???

[oblique siren]

Being a Mom isn't about Age; it's a Calling

[restive river]

Oh absolutely

It’s just really funny to think about that possibility

Age and time is weird in Warframe, especially with our tenno who have experienced both in odd ways

[oblique siren]

Now, on the other hand being a MIL-- I am taken out by a sniper shot from Ordis

[restive river]

Thank you Ordis

[oblique siren]

Yuh. That's another reason why I wanna flesh out our Operator more.

[restive river]

I kinda doubt we’ll get another whole KIM system but I really would love for our Operator to just
Talk to someone

[oblique siren]

I find it very funny that language used in the game isn't allowed in the official Discord Server, but I get it. They have a specific enivornment they're trying to cultivate here

[restive river]

Yeah, it’s also largely not a big deal

[oblique siren]

Oh ya I'm not expecting a KIM system
but even like
some conversations with Adis where we have an option to say X or Y

[oblique siren]

-nod nod-

[restive river]

Yessss

[oblique siren]

THOUGH what could be really cool is remembering conversations we had with kids on the Zariman

[restive river]

Heck I’d take more of them talking with any character

[cosmic badge]

So like a telltale game?

[restive river]

We got that somewhat when we were stuck in our own history

[oblique siren]

Eh not quite. In TellTale games, your choices can effect the story. What I want is flavour only.

[restive river]

I think the biggest thing would be NPC tenno that we could optionally yap to and relate to about our traumas

[oblique siren]

YEAH...

[cosmic badge]

So telltale mechanic only that doesnt outwardly effect story

[restive river]

Said traumas being
Zariman
Old War
And a buncha the recent stuff

I’m assuming the Operator may have some form of PTSD too since
They went to war???

[oblique siren]

I mean, the Zariman incident alone is PTSD worthy fjdkfg

[cosmic badge]

It would be funny if when playing solo you get a rare chance to link up with a fellow npc tenno

[restive river]

Hence why we had our memories sealed away of both events

[restive river]

That’d be nice tbh

Like same ai as the hex for bounties

[oblique siren]

tbh
A scene/scenes where our Tenno (Drifter and/or Operator) get a chance to just
cry
That would be good

[restive river]

Yesssss

[open coral]

so with the extra hex conversations added in techrot encore, do we finally know what the void said?

theres a conversation with elanor that confirms "MARA LOHK" is the drifter/operator, and elanor speculates it means "void nightmare" or "void devil" which is on brand

does anyone know of any other conversations that shed light on it?

[proper barn]

Do you mean during the new war?

[strange plinth]

just that one tmk
void devil/demon is a common thought, as is void child

[proper barn]

Cuz I am pretty sure we new that a whole ago cuz it was subtitled in whispers I think. It had 1 more word we didn't know at the time.

[open coral]

yeah
VOULL NE XATA VOK, MARA LOHK?

[open coral]

i meant an english translation lol

i know its been common speculation that its either "do you see the truth?" or "does the truth hurt?"

[silk atlas]

Wow my internet pooped itself

[strange plinth]

huh
never heard that second one

[silk atlas]

But no we don't have any official translation from the words we know from other songs that use Voidtongue

[proper barn]

Yeah

[open coral]

annoyingly not all of the KIM dialogue is on the wiki

[strange plinth]

its all on Kimulacrum tmk

[open coral]

didnt know that existed until now, very useful. thx

[restive river]

So Mara has a lot of speculation behind and that line is more so to poke at the popular “Mara means Demon/Devil” theory (as well as all the theorizing behind it), but said theory goes out the window as Lotus actually uses Mara in her Lotus Eaters song and Mara Lohk seems to refer to us
So Mara most likely means child to some degree
Also in Angels of the Zariman which came out after the New War and chronologically takes place like right after that the Lotus, for the first time ever calls us a “Child of the Void”

Lotus (moderate static interference): "You will know. You are a child of the Void."

[open coral]

lotus eaters has lyrics?

[restive river]

Yup!

In it you can hear Mara

So unless our own adoptive mother is using the same terminology her recently defeated abuser used then Mara does not mean Devil, Demon or really anything negative in relation to us

[open coral]

i mean it is a completely foreign magic language from hell, maybe "devil" and "child" are the same word /j

[restive river]

I also do not really see any reason for Wally to call us that, we’re a thorn in his side sure but he doesn’t hate us to the same degree that say, Ballas did

[open coral]

yeah true

[restive river]

Oh also for some reason Helminth calls us Devil iirc? But that may be more so relating to our void abilities gifted to us by Wally rather than an insult

[open coral]

"child of the void" seems like a reasonable thing for it to call us, especially given its perpensity to use the words of our dead dad >->

[restive river]

It do just like using childhood nicknames

“Little Bengal” to Albrecht, a name his mother called him

It likely creeps into our memories, sniffs around and finds the first name it can use for us that maybe gave a degree of comfort

“Hello little one, you should totally not be afraid of me and my always smiling face :)”

[raven carbon]

What the heck is the "tune in" section on nightwave radio? So much story I didn't even know was sitting here in a corner! 😮 I was just feeling a little bored cuz I'd finished all the main stuff and I find these scenes! 😄

[open coral]

i think the scariest part of wally is just how polite and adult-like he acts so often

[restive river]

Old Nightwaves had stories that were told over the course of that Nightwave’s run, they were very cool :]
just fun side stories

Unfortunately for Glassmaker I don’t think you can relive the literal crime scene investigations

[open coral]

you can i think?

edit: nah

just doesnt do the progress

[restive river]

It’s been a bit since I looked at it but I don’t recall doing it

It was cool, similar to the Leverian you were in first person within the weave (Warframe’s internet basically, where Cephalons vibe)

You go around looking for clues and such
Lemme see if I can link some resources for it

[open coral]

yk with the lore we got on glassing, it does bring up some questions on old cephalons

yonta says suda used to be an archemedian, so what did she do to get glassed?

[restive river]

https://www.orokinarchives.com/nightwave-3-glassmaker/

(you can look up the rest, just posting the first one)

https://youtu.be/LSHMDgHH4SE?si=DG95yXeramYhMxn1

[restive river]

https://www.warframe.com/media/comics/what-remains

Go read it yourself :]

[open coral]

same with simaris, cy, jordas, hell even samodeus, inventor of mods??

[open coral]

oh yeah i forgot suda has a comic lol

[restive river]

Lol

I think for most we just never found out

Melica was likely one of the many that Quinn unknowingly glassed

I think he didnt know?
Idr

So much lore lol

[silk atlas]

Samodeus is barely canon lol

[restive river]

He made mods and
That’s it

[restive river]

More canon than Cordylon purely cause he shows up in game lol

[strange plinth]

not sure if he didn't know or if he had forgotten as part of being a void construct n whatnot

[open coral]

drusus talks a lot, does he ever tell us how he got glassed?

[hazy prism]

actually do we know how Cephalons are named or is Ordis being a shortened version of his original name the only case we have

[restive river]

Likely due to him not giving up Dante

[open coral]

suda uses her original name

[restive river]

Yeah they did lack a lot of their memories at first, thankfully we fixed that in the end :]

[open coral]

i think "ordis" was just to put more insult to injury on the stoic warrior

[restive river]

I can see this being the case
They did him dirty

[open coral]

poor boy 😢

[hazy prism]

this reminds me, so Necraloid is a cephalon, but Loid was never glassed, so those processes are seperate?

[restive river]

Necraloid is also stated to be a construct

[open coral]

necralod was made because they needed a servant

[restive river]

Also glassing seems to typically kill?

[open coral]

so they copied loid without actually killing him

[strange plinth]

loid does mention that his skull was replicated at some point
so a clone could've been glassed

[open coral]

the drifter calls loid a cephalon in kim messages

[restive river]

Loid was already a servant
Necraloid needed to be more permanent to wake Loid

[restive river]

Yeah it’s conflicting, he both is a cephalon and a contract, he can’t be a full cephalon cause
Loid the original is fine

[hazy prism]

you know, I wouldn't be surprised if either Entrati painstaking made a copy or they cloned loid and glassed the clone

[restive river]

We know Loid’s skull had been replicated too so

[open coral]

both seem in character for the madman

[restive river]

These are the running theories yeah

Necraloid is weird and his exact status and origin is arguably uncertain

Construct?
Cephalon even though the original is fine?
Some kind of copy

It is Loid’s skull in there so I def lean towards the clone theory to some extent

Heck it could just be a really good scan that wasn’t harmful to Loid’s brain
Glassing is typically a punishment after all

[hazy prism]

that makes Amir seeing glassing as a way to "fix" him really sad

[restive river]

Yeah Amir’s whole cephalon arc is really upsetting

Iirc he just doesn’t seem to grasp how awful it is for a while

[strange plinth]

i get it, but that's not the way to go about that, amir

[restive river]

It’s a nice idea but the reality is hell

[open coral]

whats also funny is that nihil is a cephalon himself, too. we fight him in a version of the weave, right? the orokin were not against using a man's tech against him

[restive river]

He likely glassed himself

But yes he does appear to be a cephalon, even has his own geometric embodiment of his mind(?)

Cephalons are weird
Reminder that Jordas, functionally a special type of computer program got infested!

Which we do see the infestation “eating” code in the 1999 arg but like
This ain’t normal code

[strange plinth]

ig it isn't that surprising but for some reason i've just realized that both the infestation and the sentients can take over cephalons
suda during octavia's anthem and jordas

[hazy prism]

this also made me realize how much all orokin tech is on the sliding scale of techno-organic

[open coral]

well jordas is mutalyst, which had already shown itself to be able to infect tech. it only had to get its grubby tendrils on whatever hard drive jordas was stored on

the technocyte seems notably similar to the mutalyst strain, too. did the infestation at some point lose its ability to infect tech? and then, eons later, alad simply reawakened jt?

or what if... the technocyte was made by entrati? a combination of helminth and mutalyst, brought with him into 1999 unintentionally... and its just one big bootstrap paradox

[hazy prism]

I think it's cause the Techrot (which is the strain that mainly takes over the 1999 tech) is a specific strain, perhaps in the history of the world it got wiped out or couldn't compete with other strains and thus lost the ability to infest tech in the time between 1999 and the orokin era

[silk atlas]

That DEFINTELY is not the case because it was already known as The Plague Year and was a problem before Albrchet came to 1999. He just took advantage of the situation

[open coral]

but.. do we know when entrati landed? clearly a decent amount of time before the drifter. he calls us late, after all. maybe he crashlanded in november 1998 and caused the first outbreak

[restive river]

There are no bootstraps in Warframe, yet

[open coral]

but i want one :(

[restive river]

I don’t
Not for this.

[tall echo]

He was there before 1999 but so was the techrot

Also bootstrap paradoxes suck

[restive river]

Bootstraps are tricky and largely can be unsatisfying

They’re really cool in theory yes

[silk atlas]

He has been there before Techrot but Eleanor already talks about having seen Techrot sufferers without any peep of Albrecht around.

[hazy prism]

Isn't ||Flare/Temple|| a bootstrap

[restive river]

If you want good and cool bootstraps, read homestuck

[restive river]

No…

[tall echo]

Nope, design existed before

[silk atlas]

No because ||they were already designed by Ballas for Albrecht to steal to take back in time to give to Flare.||

[restive river]

By the time they got to the origin system it would have been impossible for Ballas to make it and Albrecht to steal it

Again, bootstraps can be cool but they result in the origin of the thing being well
The bootstrap, it’s a cool realization but can be unsatisfying

[tall echo]

It's impressive how many people seem to just not catch the fact that loid thinking the old war was still going means brecht left before the collapse

[restive river]

Like if the infestation was one that would arguably be unsatisfying
Cause
“Oh it just kinda is and perpetuates itself forever”

[restive river]

We still don’t even know if he does know about it, he probably does but I don’t think anything has even pointed to that
Not that he would care

[tall echo]

What

[silk atlas]

Know about what

[restive river]

Albrecht

The collapse?

[open coral]

idk i like bootstraps because my favourite version of time travel is when the events you cause in the past already happened, and that inherently creates bootstrap paradoxes

[restive river]

He was in a loop for it, at most he maybe got it from the pom-2’s writer

[tall echo]

That's not really bootstrap that's just a common time travel interpretation

[tall echo]

?

[restive river]

Does Albrecht know about the collapse

[open coral]

but it will create bootstraps just naturally due to cause and effect.

[tall echo]

I didn't say anything about albrecht knowing about it

[restive river]

I know

[restive river]

That’s not
A bootstrap

[hazy prism]

So when Albrecht says he's going to Tau, i'm assuming it means Tau in either the orokin or modern time

[tall echo]

Bootstrap is "thing is caused by thing2 but thing2 only exists because of thing"

[restive river]

He says Tau is in sight not that he’s going there
We don’t know where he is

[restive river]

It’s an infinitely looping perpetuation of itself

[tall echo]

Then why bring it up, do you intentionally try to confuse me

[restive river]

I’d say you like a particular piece of music from an artist you use a Time Machine to go back and see them but they do not exist, but you have all of their music so you essentially become them so that you will eventually go back in time to become them

[open coral]

no like

take (i apologise) harry potter's timeturner. the timeturner uses this form of one-timeline time travel, where you cant change the events of the past

but, harry ends up saving himself from dimentors
he never changed the past, but his presence causes things to happen. thats what causes him to create the bootstrap

[restive river]

Sorry lol

[open coral]

any time travel story like that will either have bootstrap paradoxes or be boring and say you cant interact with yourself or whatever

[restive river]

Warframe:

[tall echo]

Bootstrap paradoxes are boring

[restive river]

Bootstraps are incredibly limiting

It’s a nice loop but that’s kinda it
A fun realization

[open coral]

how is a story technique limiting 😭

thats like saying pencils are bad because they cant make coloured drawings

[tall echo]

I prefer things having an actual good origin point

[open coral]

like "it came from space hell"?

[restive river]

The problem with boot straps is that they are always going to happen and they lack a defined origin

[tall echo]

Well. That's better than a bootstrap

[restive river]

No, cause at least that’s an origin

[tall echo]

Bootstrap is starting to look like a fake word

[restive river]

Boot straps, lack any proper origin because they completely perpetuate themselves forever. There is no origin that’s a boot strap.

[open coral]

thats not the problem, thats the premise 😭 the lack of origin is the interesting part

[restive river]

And the issue is, that’s not always the interesting part. If that was the infestation’s origin that would not be satisfying.
It might be to you, but not to all

[hazy prism]

the "origin" is that it was brought back in time from the future, and than will happen again, it is it's own "origin"

[open coral]

how is it less cool than "it just appeaered one day in 1999"

any origin is boring if you say it in a boring way

[restive river]

The infestations origin is purposely undefined at the moment same as the man of the wall

[tall echo]

I'd hate if the currently established supposedly ancient infestation turns out to be a bland overused time travel trope

[restive river]

Boot straps have been done well, but they have to be carefully done well

What does it add to something if it is a boot strap?

[open coral]

didnt people say the same about the sentients not being aliens? and look how cool they turned out

[tall echo]

?

[restive river]

Yeah uh
What??

[open coral]

i might be misrecalling but the origin of the sentients was vague at first and we just knew they came from tau

we didnt know the orokin made them

[restive river]

We’ve know they were Orokin made for a good while iirc

[open coral]

not always tho?

[restive river]

Not always, no

[open coral]

i think?

[tall echo]

It's very old lore though

[hazy prism]

we knew since Simaris no? the scans hint at something being sent extrasolar

[open coral]

yeah and i have seen things from way back then where loads of people were annoyed that the sentients were revealed to not be aliens

[silk atlas]

I wish I knew when the hell they added the Detron Crewman Synthesis Imprint

[restive river]

Again, the issue with the boot strap paradox is the fact that it doesn’t add anything, it just makes it a loop
And that’s only satisfying if we understand the loop in which case it has to be spelled out to some degree

A boot strap paradox just says this thing does not have a real origin because it is its own origin
What does that add to something?

[tall echo]

-# it adds an uncreative resolution

[restive river]

The best I’ve ever seen it used is in Homestuck where it actually does add to things

[open coral]

thats way too reductive of the trope. you could describe anything as "doesnt add anything" as long as your definition of "something" is "a piece of story i enjoy personally"

of course it adds something. it adds a level of intrigue and mystery to the nature of time in the setting. everyone does it wrong because they then go on to continuously change how time travel works. when done well, its the ultimate checkovs gun

[tall echo]

There's no mystery behind bootstraps at this point ngl

[restive river]

Adding “This thing is even more mysterious then you already knew” doesn’t do much

[open coral]

warframe had eternalism, which genuinely lends itself really well to having a bootstrap paradox

[open coral]

hasnt that been 90% of void lore so far anyway 💀

[restive river]

Also
I enjoy good bootstraps, but they don’t need to be in Warframe yet

[restive river]

No?

[silk atlas]

Okay this one I'm not getting at all. It's just a poorly worded many worlds theory.

[tall echo]

And it then used the term for something completely unrelated

[restive river]

How does the many worlds interpretation lend itself to a time paradox

[open coral]

uh no.

eternalism is all points in time existing simultaneously

why do people thing eternalism is many worlds??

[restive river]

Drifter:

[tall echo]

Actual eternalism is good for time stuff, wf eternalism isn't

[tall echo]

Bc that's what it is in wf

[restive river]

It’s both all time at once and the many worlds theory

[tall echo]

I'm still getting annoyed over it sometimes

[silk atlas]

Because the few times where it's applicable (Drifter) that's exactly what happens. A difference choice was made (in this case Wally deciding to screw with Drifter) and there's a different timeline that exists with that different outcome.

[open coral]

the drifter refers to the void having eternalism in the everything all at once sense in kim

[open coral]

but doesnt eternalism apply there too, tho.

assuming many words in wf works from branching timelines, having eternalism would let you jump between brances, because its flat

[tall echo]

The actual version of eternalism hasn't been utilized yet bc ig DE just wanted a fancy word

[open coral]

if all time exists all at once, then so too do all timelines, right?

[tall echo]

Thing is, it's explicitly stated that other timelines are practically inaccessible

[silk atlas]

If we're talking about the actual Eternalism, it does not necessarily need multiple timelines to apply.

[open coral]

to mortals maybe

[silk atlas]

WF Eternalism throws that part out the window.

[tall echo]

And tenno are mortal

Orokin too

[open coral]

obviously not, eternalism is just what the game uses to let the branches intersect. its just a device to explain the story element

doesnt wally's existance create a bootstrap? it was made when operator shook hands with... wally itself? like having done so at that point in time allows wally to exist beforehand which allows wally to shake the operator's hand

[tall echo]

Side note wf eternalism technically also hasn't actually been used yet bc drifter was in the void which is between timelines, so they bypassed the whole "other timelines are inaccessible" thing

[tall echo]

...no??

[silk atlas]

Wally already existed by the time the Zariman went bonkers because that was after Albrecht's Void excursion

[open coral]

isnt the void being "between timelines" an example of eternalism at play

again, flattening the lines to a point

[tall echo]

It's an example of multiverse theory at play

[silk atlas]

This is regardless of which origin of Wally you go with (Albrecht made Wally when entering the Void, or Albrecht just stumbled into him in the first Void expedition)

[open coral]

but the multiverse theory doesnt do anything without a way to jump between timelines. eternalism is what is letting them jump between timelines

[tall echo]

Gotta have space between the timelines or stuff is gonna get wibbly wobbly

[silk atlas]

More so it's the Void that allows Eternalism to matter in this context. If it didn't (like it did before funny time travel stuff was created) then they would've just went along with Presentism.

[open coral]

the void also lets you go ftl because its warping time, right?

[tall echo]

Don't need a different time theory to logically jump timelines

[open coral]

its not a different time theory, its just the time theory in this story

[tall echo]

It allows warping bc space and time are a suggestion

[silk atlas]

...wdym it's not a different time theory

[open coral]

eternalism is true in real life, too! didnt you know, kiddo?

[silk atlas]

Eternalism in real life isn't even a theory it's a philosophy.

[open coral]

-# with the way current arg-y lore is going wally might be in our world

[tall echo]

Eternalism irl is just straight up wrong

Time goes forwards, it's not all now

[tall echo]

-# ignoring the actual args ig?

[silk atlas]

In WF it is a theory of time because being able to use Void allows the funny science people to mess around with time, therefore Presentism isn't as useful because of these funny new sciences go "nuh uh".

[open coral]

i mean any sort of time travel "theory" is inherently based on the assumption that time is a malleable thing and not just the nature of our own experience

[silk atlas]

Which it is in WF due to the Void, and Eternalism is not a time travel theory, just a time theory.

Just happens that time travel is one of the fun features in the all-in-one package deal of Void when able to be used.

[tall echo]

-# Disclaimer: time travel might not be in the intended direction

Imagine time travelling to the very distant future in wf and meeting a random guy that was tossed in the void and just kinda ended up there

[silk atlas]

Thankfully the game also has some info on time travel not having major butterfly effects thanks to a couple Zariman Tablets which I personally think is cooler than a bootstrap and from a writing perspective a hell of a lot easier to work with.

[open coral]

remember when deadlock protocol dropped and people hated the time travel aspect

i know BNP really disliked it

[tall echo]

I don't, started playing after it

[proper barn]

okay that';s not what eternalism means.

[open coral]

read the rest of the conversation please

i know what eternalism is

[proper barn]

when i'm 100 i'm still gonna be saying that's what eternalism is.

but i can belive you lmao.

[open coral]

ok so people say that warframe uses "eternalism" wrong when what it means is "many worlds" but its kinda not true

[proper barn]

eternalism is a fake warframe word.

They can use it how they want.

[open coral]

no eternalism is a concept in philosophy

its the idea that the future, past and present are all equally real

[proper barn]

is it bad my first reaction to that was "I don't care" lmao.

[open coral]

lmao a little

in warframe specifically this concept extends to the weird time travel and timeline shenanigans going on

[proper barn]

hmmmmmm

do we wanna get into if any other universes are actually real? or did the void just take like Unrealized outcomes and make them real?

[open coral]

when within the void, eternalism is at play. this means all moments in time exist at once. all of time, and all branching timelines are stacked up next to one another and you can step from one into the next. this is what allows the drifter to.. uh exist, and also go to 1999

[proper barn]

cuz thats' what i would argue all of eternalism is.

[open coral]

if we were to ask the drifter, i feel their answer would be "equally real, equally unreal"

[proper barn]

but like i say thast

cuz of what the tablets in duviri say

about outcomes.

[open coral]

the tablets are arguable in their accuracy

[proper barn]

and like if a outcome was changed SO MASSIVELY it leaves echoes of the older time.

[open coral]

some are speculative, others are straight up propoganda

and of course some have been messed with by wally

[silk atlas]

The one talking about trying to mess with a timeline is the only info we've got with that, and given what's gone on in 1999 has done little to affect the modern day, it's about as concrete as we're getting on that one

[open coral]

oh yeah palimpsest also explains the drifters existance

[silk atlas]

No that one's actually just Eternalism

[open coral]

doesnt the drifter explain it in the context of palimpsest?

that wally erased the drifter's possibility, but duviri is the smudge left over

[silk atlas]

1. No, Drifter explains it as "--future? Naw... but that'd be a lot easier to get, now wouldn't it? As far as I can make it out: You're the me that got rescued from this s***. And I'm the you that did not. Not sure which of us got it worse."

2. The palimpsest of timespace is about a singular timeline, like with how the Coda survives into the future because we don't blow up the reactor.

[open coral]

ah i see

[silk atlas]

Drifter's timeline is just mostly gone, save for Duviri. That's not related to the palimpsest since nothing's being rewritten, it just poof

[open coral]

i think my favourite zariman tablet is

By what right do the Orokin govern?
A. Through intrinsic superiority ❌️
B. This is a Forbidden Question ⭕️

[silk atlas]

Not surprising that there's propaganda between the actual facts, given the Orokin

[open coral]

it really reflects on the almost facistic nature of the orokin empire

i really hope we get to explore it more in old peace

[strange turtle]

Just a warning Devils Triad is gonna break it

[hollow flare]

1999 isn't an alt dimension like duviri right?

[glacial bough]

No

[hollow flare]

it's the real past of the real origin system

so did the infestation come from the techrot?

or did it come to earth from other planets

like is infestation or the techrot the original thing

[digital grail]

The techrot is the infestation

Techrot is just a slang term no?

[swift sentinel]

Yes, Eleanor coined it in an article she wrote before her infestation

[digital grail]

Yeah i remember now

[strange turtle]

We don’t know what the original is, but they’re all strains of technocyte

[hollow flare]

ik I'm just wondering if it started on earth and spread through the system or it got on earth from somewhere else

[proper barn]

Good question.

Probably started on earth.

[digital grail]

Yeah probably earth

[hollow flare]

also do we know if techrot is limited to the hollvania region?

because it seems pretty apocalyptic if it's global

[proper barn]

It is not? Also that's what starts the radiation wars.

[hollow flare]

and it still exists in present day

[proper barn]

Is they do that to try to stop the Infestation.

[hollow flare]

OH

[proper barn]

And they do at some point beat it back enough for it not to control the whole origin system.

[hollow flare]

the reactor is like the 1st step to the wars then

[proper barn]

Well the reactor nor going off.

Cuz it only spreads if it doesn't go off.

[hollow flare]

ok it's kinda making sense then

cuz albrecht wants to blow it up to break the cycle and get enough energy to get to tau

[proper barn]

No?

We don't know exactly.

[hollow flare]

but doing it also erases the infestation, so he brings back warframe serum from the future so we can still have warframes

[proper barn]

Well he does that to test.

[hollow flare]

he says that when u talk right? only one way to get enough energy

[proper barn]

Like through those tests he is able to make

The what's it called. Vessels in the labs.

[hollow flare]

the big guys?

[proper barn]

The things in the labs yes.

We that before 1999 though.

[hollow flare]

no but I'm saying like if his plan is to blow up the reactor which would wipe out the infestation in the past. this gives us no warframes without infestation during orokin power. so he takes the bit of it back so we can still have them. kinda makes sense in that logic

[proper barn]

But that wasn't his logic

[hollow flare]

hm

[proper barn]

His logic was test things in 1999 to fight Wally in our current time.

Cuz 1999 was "safe" from Wally.

[hollow flare]

I see, I thought he went back in time enough where wally is weak, to get rid of it at it's root

[proper barn]

Well more where Wally couldn't go. He couldn't go there until Ruslka let him use her as host.

[hollow flare]

hm so he wanted to use it to test weapons and such without wally knowing about them

and now that it's free entrati is doing his work in secret

[sly ibex]

That also wouldn't have wiped out the Infested, anyway. Just the ones localized in Hollvania at the time, but there was likely more Infestation around/dormant in other places.

[open coral]

what how why

[strange turtle]

Idr the actual details but its like

They’re changing the system that the KIM uses, and the Kimulacrum uses that to function

So once they make that change the Kimulacrum wont work until it gets updated or a new one is made

[digital grail]

What's the triad changing about the kim

[strange turtle]

oh no thats not what I mean. Its been suggested by the devs that the underlying framework in KIM will change in Devil's Triad, which is different from what the KIMulacrum is using so for a short while the KIMulacrum will break and we'll have to [censored] finding each new convo

[ocean geyser]

He wants it to blow up to keep the cycle going

[ocean geyser]

He literally says that when he tells us to stop the Hex from turning it off

[heady quest]

Yeah wasn’t the whole reason the cycle was there was to trap Wally in there when we arrived?

Or did I misunderstood the whole quest? 😅

The 1999 quest is a bit fuzzy for me just because when I played it I was just thinking the whole time “What is DE doing?” 😂😂

Wait what is the Kimulacrum?

[hollow siren]

KIM chat system

[ocean geyser]

Probably the KIM messages

[open coral]

browse.wf/kimulacrum

[heady quest]

Ah ok

[ashen pulsar]

adding even more content, as per usual

[open coral]

11 protoframes but still no third orb mother

undermind was the perfect scenario to introduce her too

[hollow siren]

Well considering she's had a Pazuul drone floating above her for years now (said drone was also not there originally)

[open coral]

oh yeah....

narmer orb mother

[hollow siren]

the orb mothers already use Amalgam tech so

[ocean geyser]

Isn’t that just the Profit Taker?

Exploiter just covers herself in ice

[open coral]

no, its this. shes found drowing herself in a digital lake not far from fortuna

[hollow siren]

No, 3rd orb is in a lake

[ocean geyser]

I’m talking about the sentient tech part

[open coral]

ohh

[ocean geyser]

Only the Profit Taker has adaptive shielding

[hollow siren]

Maybe, yeah

[open coral]

yeah exploiter doesnt have adaptive shielding

[hollow siren]

Profit-taker's dialogue is notably different in tone than Exploiter, so could be true

[digital grail]

Get out the water

[ocean geyser]

It’s
literally true 💀
Exploiter defends herself by covering herself in ice

I’ve done the fight 3 times already

[hollow siren]

I mean I know, but it's not like they explicitly state that Exploiter doesn't have Amalgam tech integrated in her

Like I do agree with you that Exploiter does not seem to have any

[open coral]

well its explicitly stated that profit taker does, and she uses adaptive shielding for the damage type malarkey

and since exploiter doesnt do that, we can assume she probably doesnt have sentient shields

[ocean geyser]

So it’s a “yes” on profit, “maybe” on everyone else
Although you’d figure they’d use it by now if they did

[hollow siren]

Don't get me wrong I do agree with this, but it's not like all Amalgams have Adaptation so Exploiter lacking it would not necesarilly prove that she does not have Amalgam tech in her

[ocean geyser]

On another note it’s interesting how Profit just says poetic things

While exploiter just sounds like an abusive parent

[hollow siren]

Exploiter's voice does feel more pre-recorded similar to like the Moas we order around as Veso

while Profit-taker feels more like she's a Sentient talking to us

[open coral]

i miss veso

[hollow siren]

He'll return as the Brother of Parvos trust

[ocean geyser]

Exploiter orb feels like a giant ball of propaganda
But she does literally yell “LOOK AT ME WHEN I’M SPEAKING TO YOU!!”

Maybe there’s something wrong with her robot brain

[open coral]

there should be a multiplayer veilbreaker game mode where you play as members of the garrison and you can choose between a grineer, who plays like kahl, and a corpus, who plays like veso

[digital grail]

He'll return in warframe 2 two war two frame

[ocean geyser]

But that line was delivered with so much malice i was worried it was going to bother some friends i was playing with (who also have parental issues)

[open coral]

do you think nef designed them based on his own mother

[hollow siren]

Put the Jade Shadows warning in Deck 12

[ocean geyser]

Like props to the VA for that but holy shit

[hollow siren]

I doubt it, tbh I doubt he even designed them at all

He just funds and owns it

[open coral]

yeah but it means i can say nef has mommy issues as well as daddy issues

[ocean geyser]

So whoever was handling the software certainly had some issues 💀

[open coral]

cant wait for the lover of parvos update where we find out about anyo's mom though his abusive treatment of his nephew derf

[hollow siren]

I imagine the strict mother personality is to act as propaganda, but how extreme she goes with it might be some Amalgam-bits altering the personality like Profit-taker has

[ocean geyser]

Yeah that’d make sense

[open coral]

i mean idk sentients are definitely not inherently abusive parents

[tall echo]

No amalgams have adaptation, but the poopy taker has sentient shielding not amalgam shielding

[ocean geyser]

Well she’s pretty chill when it comes to her Raknoids, i think

[hollow siren]

Her being a mix of Sentient and normal tech makes her by definition an Amalgam

[tall echo]

There's a distinction between sentient and amalgam

[ocean geyser]

Most of the abusive parent energy is directed towards SU and the Tenno

[tall echo]

Amalgams are exclusive to jupiter

[open coral]

so shes an abusive parent who has a favourite child big whoop

[hollow siren]

Caliban and the Archons are technically Amalgams

[ocean geyser]

Like that one Gordon Ramsey meme

[hollow siren]

and Nef has a whole lab dedicated to developing Amalgam tech in the Vallis

that's where the Ocucor and Battacor come from

[tall echo]

A proper amalgam is a result of salad's deal with the sentients, the orbs use salvaged sentient bits

[hollow siren]

Alad-V is on the forefront of Amalgam development due to him having a direct deal with actual Sentients

but he's not the only one who dabbles in it

[ocean geyser]

Exploiter to her Raknoids vs Exploiter to us:

[open coral]

which he then pawned off to the highest bidders, probably including anyo

[tall echo]

Again, there's a distinction between amalgam tech and just different types of tech mixed

[open coral]

he still probably got the tech from alad

he was the only corpus who had sentient stuff

[tall echo]

The PT is made with salvaged sentient stuff

Yk, from the old war

Which was system-wide so there'd logically be bits everywhere

[open coral]

mmm i guess

enough to cover a 50ft spider in it?

[tall echo]

Enough to at least reinforce its armor

[ocean geyser]

Sentients can get pretty big bro

[open coral]

they also all died a thousand years ago

[tall echo]

Yeah the things we fight are small fragments

[ocean geyser]

Their corpses are still around tbh

[tall echo]

They're not organic

[open coral]

their corpses from a thousand years ago, buried and broken under centuries of rubble

[ocean geyser]

That doesn’t mean you can’t graft it onto stuff

Which is what people have been doing

[tall echo]

And I guess it's impossible that the corpus can excavate it

Looks at the excavated buried orokin tower remains in the vallis

[open coral]

wait was profit taker around before the amalgams

[tall echo]

Don't think so

[ocean geyser]

She wasn’t there on fortuna’s release?

[open coral]

she was sitting around on top of that building before she was actually fightable, right?

[open coral]

yeah thats what im thinking

[ocean geyser]

Time to stare at update logs

[tall echo]

Vallis was somewhere around 2018 iirc

[open coral]

uodate 24.0 introduced fortuna

[open coral]

24.2 she was fightable

[ocean geyser]

That’s directly from the wiki

[open coral]

amalgams were added in

25.0 :O

[ocean geyser]

So she was around first!

[open coral]

so she probably isnt amalgam tech

case closed

[ocean geyser]

At least not literally amalgam tech

She’s sentient and normal tech slapped together but not a proper amalgam

[celest needle]

How would Jade Prime work?

[silk atlas]

They got some other poor sap that was pregnant

[violet storm]

Or she ascends

[silk atlas]

The fact that the Orokin just had an entire frame who's shtick is that she's pregnant makes it seem like this isn't the first time they did this.

[celest needle]

But having a second jade ?

[silk atlas]

Yeah?

[violet storm]

They’ve clearly done some very screwed up and amoral stuff

[silk atlas]

There's nothing special about Jade here besides she's a pregnant Warframe.

Nothing would've stopped the Orokin from just making another

Like with almost every other Warframe we have.

[celest needle]

And another one

How would Qorvex prime work, lore wise?

[silk atlas]

.

[violet storm]

Albrecht did some funny things

[silk atlas]

Just because it was designed for Albrecht doesn't mean he could've been used for other things

That's the main thing with Warframes people get hung up on. They always think that the one particular way we get someone like Harrow or Xaku or what have you is the only copy of it in existence just because we don't see the others.

[rose estuary]

Qorvex but made from gold instead

[woven coyote]

Upgrade from demon core to fusion core

[lilac aspen]

"Loid, release the blinged out version a few months later."

[digital grail]

"LOID you gave them the wrong nuclear reactor give them the one that won't give them cancer"

Cancer prime

[open coral]

well jade has been around since the orokin era. shes pregnant because she was pregnant before being turned into a warframe (which does bring up the question of how the hell she was pregnant for over a thousand years but whatever) so its possible they made a prime based off of her

[violet storm]

Something, something, ballas is a spiteful jerk

[open coral]

well its never stated that the qorvex we get was the only one >-> maybe albrecht made a prototype

it would also be a great excuse to make another entrati-themed prime

god damn i love circles

[celest needle]

Please give Quorvex entrati obuls and the black and gold color scheme

[open coral]

exactlyyyyy

what weapons would he even come with

you cant exactly prime the entrati weapons, they're already arguably quite prime

[open coral]

ooh omg what if quorvex prime has like a necraloid thing going on

blue bones, black metal and gold obuls

[open coral]

excluding mandonel prime obviously

[hollow blaze]

I need that, that would be sick. Or have Qorvex Prime styled with necramech-like armor instead of looking like a concrete roadstop.

[celest needle]

And
Uhhh

How the hell would Garuda be effective against the sentients?

She works off of blood and I don't think the sentiments have usable blood for her

[hollow blaze]

*Coughs in Trumna Prime.

[ocean geyser]

Thinking about those Nora Night transmissions pre-Whispers in the Walls
The 2nd one, specifically, where the members of a small mining colony became posessed by Wally (presumably) and attempted to reach Deimos by digging straight through Mars

I wonder why that was the particular decision the Indifference took

Would they try building a tower to Deimos when they got to the other side???

[woven coyote]

Same way as moas i suppose

[pale cedar]

I don’t think he thought that far into the plan

[ocean geyser]

That’s probably fair

[pale cedar]

Maybe he just wanted to do a little digging

[ocean geyser]

Diggy diggy hole

[pale cedar]

He didn’t listen the don’t dig down rule

[open coral]

oh yeah thats true...

time for ruvox prime
-# sepulacrum prime probably makes the most sense but i can dream

[open coral]

quorvex prime first frame to have a face (skull)

[tall echo]

And jade being her actual original name

[tall echo]

So just. Entrati aesthetic.