lore-discussion

[lean garden]

well, being made before would change the bolded part, since the bolded part heavily suggests she was made in response

[silk atlas]

...I could've worded that way better

[lean garden]

especially so with what ballas did by telling hunhow about the reservior

[candid elm]

god why does everyone have to be such an unreliable narrator in warframe ffs!!

lotus is hella gaslit and being mentally screwed with here, not to mention she is 100% keeping critical information from us

[silk atlas]

Yeah that was just me being stupid let me retry.

Her being gaslit or not wouldn't really change the truth on that bold part, because that's not the important part of her yapping there. The parts she's getting wrong is her being convinced that the enemy is the Tenno and they're creepy and evil and jump.

If she was made before the Tenno she'd just say that instead and still go on about how she's being manipulated.

[narrow pendant]

imagine a scene were lizzy asks stalker if she can just get a liiiiitle taste of his son

[candid elm]

yeah

no...

no lets not do that

[narrow pendant]

i hope he returns for new peace in some way

[candid elm]

new peace?

[narrow pendant]

old peace

stupid

[lean garden]

stalker? in the Old Peace?

[narrow pendant]

(me)

[candid elm]

either way i doubt stalker will let his kid close to tau

[narrow pendant]

holiday trip

history lesson

[candid elm]

i more meant so that it's proabbly an active warzone

i mean we dont know that sure but why the hell else would we go there?

[narrow pendant]

albrecht went there

[candid elm]

you know what i mean

[narrow pendant]

i havnt thought of there still being a conflict on tau tbh

[candid elm]

it's obvs gonna be a new hub/tileset

[candid elm]

narmer is my bet

[narrow pendant]

maybe

[candid elm]

hey so

insane crackpot theory

what if adis is connected to the lotus in some way?

[narrow pendant]

hive kin or whatever they call families

[candid elm]

i meant more in a there's a part of adis in lotus

[woven coyote]

Dont really see a need for it in the story

[candid elm]

like i said

crackpot theory

[narrow pendant]

ok ill make an even sillier one

stalker goes to tau bc his son hungers for tauforged shards

[candid elm]

i was just thinking about how weird it is that lotus has these weird powers like floating the tenno to their chair or sealing lua in the void

[woven coyote]

Lua isnt the lotus' power

Just orokin tech on lua itself

[candid elm]

more importantly, her ability to repel wally

or whatever the hell happened at the end of the new war

[narrow pendant]

she had her own deal with wally

[woven coyote]

Not really

[narrow pendant]

at the end of new war, she knows what wally is, but pretends to the tenno nothing just happened or whatever

[silk atlas]

Lotus didn't even know who Wally was during Chains of Harrow

[candid elm]

eeehhhh

i'd argue she was withholding information again during that scene

she does that alot

[woven coyote]

So far beings with synthetic senses have reported wally as "nothing" so i think she was just being literal, like she literally saw nothing

[narrow pendant]

lmao true

[silk atlas]

Lotus didn't even know Rell before then so fat chance she even knew Wally

[narrow pendant]

its def some offscreen interaction after chains of harrow bc she def know wally before new war

[woven coyote]

Like to me that pause was her trying to figure out how to describe what she could perceive

[narrow pendant]

the way she acts as bait for wally after lotus eaters suggests wally sees some value in her and likely had interacted with her in the past

she doesnt have to have powers from wally but wally might want her as an asset in whatever he is scheming

[woven coyote]

Still none of that indicates a deal

[narrow pendant]

i can imagine her hand floating to duviri being not just some crazy coincidence

up for DE to say if it was luck or more behind it

[woven coyote]

Oh it was 100% not luck but wally using her still doesnt necessarily mean a deal

The handshake scene had wally use her hand to shake ours after all

[narrow pendant]

i think it was like "i help you out one time when you cant refuse and then youll have to repay me one day" kind of deal

to lotus i mean

[candid elm]

she mentions lua having a cost

[narrow pendant]

truee

[candid elm]

it's somthing with that, but i dont believe it was the putting it in the void

i think there's somthing else that happened

[narrow pendant]

well one cost is that thraxx attack the conjunction now

[candid elm]

the conjunction doesn't have any tenno

it specifically doesn't have any tenno chamber tileset

[woven coyote]

Yeah so far we know of no events that could be called "the miracle"

[candid elm]

miracle implies the impossible happened

though...on this topic

why the hell did lua have the ability to go into the void in the first place?

[woven coyote]

Orokin just had that tech

Same with deimos

[candid elm]

but why tho

[woven coyote]

Hidey hole

Same with orokin towers in the void

[misty salmon]

To hide from the sentient invasion

[woven coyote]

Being able to safeguard your capital against any invasion sounds like pretty logical tech to develop

[candid elm]

right that's fair

[woven coyote]

Same with how deimos houses the heart

[candid elm]

oh yeah, when it was first released it wsa mentioned in a message that it had gone out of void cloaking

or smth like that

it was so long ago

[woven coyote]

Yeah something about returning to martian orbit

[candid elm]

pffff

the infestation just wantefd to go sightseeing

[woven coyote]

Infestation would feel closer to how pets feel when you trick them into going to the vet i imagine

[narrow pendant]

ughhh i wanna know the origin of the techrot too

[misty salmon]

Phased back in, didn't specifically mention the void. It's a reasonable conclusion but I'm not clear on how the heart could pump void energy out of a gate into the void into the orgin system from within the void,

But how the heart works for 1999 is also an open question,

[candid elm]

honestly i'm pretty sure elenor said it best

"what you're describing sounds divine"

the writers way of saying "void magic BS"

[hexed oxide]

quincy on the other hand says "that sounds a lot like void-fkery"

[misty salmon]

Maybe it just feeds the energy to the infestation and uses the "it exists at all points" to transfer it.

Or maybe it's some simpler apparatus involving a bowling ball, a spring loaded boxing glove, five tea kettles and a trampoline.

[lilac garnet]

what does albrecht mean by "the deal is done, the die is cast, we end as we began"

[proper barn]

We don't know exactly.

There are many things it could be.

[dense forge]

That thing is de indiference?
Its in the albrecht labs

Or its just somethimg of the murmur?

[pale cedar]

Everything that is sand is the Indifference

[dense forge]

Oh

[rustic gate]

Guys does this statue counts as a god or something in this game

[pine mortar]

that's a shrine to koumei, worshipped by the ostrons

[rustic gate]

So they pray for it?..

I did this mission and in my religion its sinful to worship fetish

So i will ask warframe devs to take this statue

I cant do missions if im supposed to pray for ts

No

[spice wedge]

So i was watching the second dream quest, so margulis hide tenno's
in Lua copernicus,where even lotus was hidden.
And deimos was from Mars- crystals of citrine 2 people protected by their warframe.
So in old peace what will show us, how much months has left for that quest appear 2 or 3.

[eager dragon]

I mean, you aren't praying to it. The Ostrons are, but you aren't an Ostron.

You just move gift baskets

[rustic gate]

Giving offerings to the statue is like WORSHIPPING it

[eager dragon]

I mean, I disagree in that regard, but ok I guess.

You can't really worship something when it's something you control yourself

[pine mortar]

if the offerings are left by someone else and delivered to the shrine by a third party, then imo it counts as worship from the first party

[rustic gate]

Control?

Dude its a rock

[eager dragon]

The Statue is of Koumei

Which is a frame

You can play as

The Tenno control the Warframes

[rustic gate]

Koumei has a statue

[glossy dew]

What are you talking about?

[eager dragon]

^Statue of Koumei

[rustic gate]

And ostrons worship it as a god

[glossy dew]

Koumei is not a goddess

[eager dragon]

About the shrine defense missions

[rustic gate]

Why do they worship it

[eager dragon]

And whether by moving the gift baskets

It counts as praying

[glossy dew]

She's basically like a prophet

She can see the future and manipulate fate

So they give her offerings and prayers for fortune

[rustic gate]

Dude

[glossy dew]

But she ain't a goddess

[rustic gate]

They PRAY for her

[eager dragon]

Key word they

Not you.

[rustic gate]

Yeah but i delivered the baskets

Its in the dog days mission

[normal mountain]

So you're just the mail service

[rustic gate]

Doesn’t that mean I worshiped it

[glossy dew]

You can't be this stubborn bro

[rustic gate]

funny

[glossy dew]

Koumei's offerings aren't yours, but the Ostrons

[eager dragon]

They aren't your offerings

[glossy dew]

You're merely giving them to her

[eager dragon]

You're not offering anything from yourself

[glossy dew]

Exactly

[normal mountain]

Also serious
I don't consider transporting the offerings as prayer on my part
But if you do, nothing is forcing you to do the mission ever again

[eager dragon]

You're just the middleman for someone 'cause they can't deliver it themselfs.

[glossy dew]

You literally can PLAY as her

[rustic gate]

Okay I guess

[glossy dew]

She isn't a goddess, none of the frames are

[rustic gate]

I thought i did pray for it instead of my god

In my religion if i did that

I will go to hell

I was worried

[glossy dew]

They're seen as something divine because of their power and their benevolence to the Ostrons, but in reality they're war machines

[eager dragon]

If you still feel like that is something wrong, you can always buy the weapons and frame for plat. It's up to you.

[glossy dew]

That's basically like in Warhammer where they see space Marines as angels when they're child soldiers on steroids+1000

[eager dragon]

I just don't think it constitutes as praying.

But views vary.

[glossy dew]

Exactly

Think about it like you're being Koumei's door dash delivery man

[normal mountain]

Like I said, mail service

[rustic gate]

I am not supposed to do anything to koumeis or even talk to it

But i think its okay because I didn’t know

[glossy dew]

Exactly

Take away every religious thing about the shrine and it might as well be a simple mailman mission

[normal mountain]

I would agree
But for the future, here's a very simple way to think about it:

Koumei isn't a deity
What the Ostrons say doesn't matter
It's what you personally believe

[rustic gate]

Thanks everyone

Do u guys have a religion like Christianity

[abstract quest]

Alas v sent me this, what does it mean?

[eager dragon]

Grind for Sevagoth Prime

[rustic gate]

To tickle his buhh

U see the shade

Shadow of the

Buh

Juicy

[glossy dew]

It's a pain in the ahh

I would know, I just sold a set

[abstract quest]

Sev prime is easy to get ?

[glossy dew]

Kinda

The worse part is getting his chasis

[barren jasper]

dont worry its just a game, killing is probably a sin and you do that in game

[humble sierra]

"What did you see?"
"Nothing."

Nothing could be her just embellishing the fact it's the Indifference (nothingness/a void). Or maybe she literally saw nothing because inorganic lifeforms aren't able to comprehend it.

[proper barn]

She can see him.

Or well

Knows of him. Cuz it says so in The ropa fight.

[humble sierra]

They worship her as a Protector, because she is. She's an actual being. They're not worshipping the idea of Koumei. they're worshipping the Warframe so she can save them.

[proper barn]

Also Pazuul talks about the Zariman flame and like Wally cowering before him.

[humble sierra]

Yeah that was just another potential explanation, imo the Sentients are just as capable of things as humans

[narrow pendant]

timmy toughknuckles

[lilac garnet]

how did pazuul take over erras body?

[strange plinth]

not really explained tmk
maybe Nira had something to do with it?
maybe the Ram headcrabbed itself over to erra's body (mostly /s)
all we really know is that The Ram is attached to Erra's body and there should be an archon shard through the side of the head, but it doesn't render in the dialogue portrait for some reason

[stiff beacon]

you see it at the end of veilbreaker though

[spice wedge]

I wonder, where is queen of kuva fortress hidden herself,plus i can't seem to understand, why there wasn't a story, when Ballas tried to control everyone in orokin system. Where kuva fortress was hidden.

[spice wedge]

Maybe because orokins leaders had power to transfer spirit to others

Just like ordis, cephalon simaris, lotus were.

[strange plinth]

that's the orokin, though, not sentients

[spice wedge]

No wonder tenno eliminated half civilization

After alad V told about that.

[strange plinth]

the remaining queen is still in the fortress somewhere
where exactly isn't important
ballas trying to control the system (again) is just the entire narmer plot in the new war
kuav fortress was where it always was, moving around and disguised as some asteroids

[spice wedge]

I wonder,why they didn't told us after queen used to make liches, how did parvos came to that to make sister of parvos liches.

[digital echo]

there is a throne room in the Kuva Fortress that theyre in, you can actually find the door to the throne room in normal fortress missions, but it will always be locked

[spice wedge]

Damn

someone tag this we need for future invasion

I wonder if wally can go into that room.

[strange plinth]

killing the remaining queen would leave a massive power vacuum
we keep her alive, we keep the balance

[spice wedge]

true

o.o when we see that old peace, I hope we find and deimos family there

[strange plinth]

probably not
they don't have a huge reason to be in tau

[spice wedge]

But old peace is a dream right

Where lotus connect tenno to find the stuff.

[strange plinth]

we're reliving our memories
they'd still have to be there in the original memory

[spice wedge]

true

True ty for fixing me.

So other question, when we will have reveal of more story about a queen.

After her sister revive her with kuva.

What are chances to see them again in future.

[strange plinth]

unlikely
its been a while since she died, even if she were to rot away rather than dying directly to teshin/us

[spice wedge]

But she didn't died by a tenno or teshin, she even hidden herself rotting

[humble sierra]

She could've died to Teshin or the Player

[swift sentinel]

The Elder Queen is dead, either by directly Tenshin, the Operator or later from us attacking her.
The Worm Queen is still alive and is hiding her sisters death and trying to build up some new power from Lua and the Zariman

[misty salmon]

Worm hiding her sister's death with obvious venquilitrist dummy antics and the grineer just going along with it because it doesn't even scratch the top hundred for acceptable odd orokin behaviours hardwired into their genetic memories.

"Of course the elder queen is alive. Other queen said so, talks to her regularly and occasionally waves her decapitated head around in a most lifelike manner. Who are you to imply otherwise, tenno skoom?"

[silk atlas]

I doubt they'd even need to go that far considering they often work out of reach of the Queens anyway

[hollow wagon]

So, as a valkyr main i must know more about my girl

May I get a more detailed valkyr lore explanation?

[misty salmon]

Not a lot known about the Prime... though there are some rather interesting visuals in the Ballas recites weird poetry video... is that some sort of corpus sentient projector to disable a Warframe?

Valkyr base had the misfortune to get herself caught by Alad V, who proceeded to dissect her and remove all her skin for use in his Zanuka project. Unfortunately in lieu of blueprints, we seem to be working off his autopsy notes, so all the ones we build are similarly flayed by default.

[waxen crypt]

Hey i just had a small realisation, but wouldnt mara lohk mean void child?, like it would just make sende if we are reffered to as such, mare being child and lohk being void in voidtongue, idk if it was made clear before

[strange plinth]

that's one of the big theories
but we don't have a definitive meaning for "mara" yet

[lean garden]

it could be, but as evidenced by eleanor and your convo on kim, DE is holding the mystery tight for now

[velvet cradle]

I dunno how well defined voidtongue is compared to the other three Warframe languages

[waxen crypt]

I think it makes sense because of the question tmitw asks us, like " blah blah blah, mara lohk?" Like it most certainly is an apelative. Now if its a more lore nuanced one like say, void eater, or something that would imply other things, sure it could be, but i have a hunch they keep it simple with void child

[waxen crypt]

Oh i mightve missed it, ill look it up

[lean garden]

oh its nothing major, aside from telling us what Oull means

[lean garden]

well, it simply doesnt function the same

all other languages in warframe are just phoneticised english

void tongue has a different thing going for it, that we're still learning as more void tongue comes out

for instance, we are told the phrase "ris ra karis" means "light out of darkness"

ris meaning light, ergo ra karis must mean "out of darkness". We see that karis contains the word ris, so we can take it that "ka" is an opposite modifier.

This is supported by "kalohk" meaning "the material world", which tallies, since the opposite of the Void can be interpreted as the material world.

This leaves us with ra, which by means of elimination must mean "out of" or at the very least carry the same connotation

[humble sierra]

We know approximately 10 'nouns'

The Requiem Mods:

• Fass - Chaos
• Jahu - Form
• Khra - Time
• Lohk - Void
• Netra - Decay
• Ris - Light
• Vome - Order
• Xata - Truth

and thanks to a chat with Eleanor

• Oull - Possibility

and thanks to the Whispers soundtrack having mostly translated lyrics on Bandcamp,

• Jeliira - Heart

Probably more in the Bandcamp lyrics, actually

[lean garden]

Githli being welcome

Shotarat being master'

[humble sierra]

SHOTARAT! UUBOK! - The master! eternal service!

Shotarat likely means "Master/The Master", not sure if Sho- is a prefix.
Uu is almost definitely a prefix that means 'Eternal", another lyric shows that UUKAREH means Eternal Union

Interestingly "YARA" seems to mean "Behold my", while "MAHK RE-UN" means "Behold us!"

[misty salmon]

Pity we don't know what the term for "golden" is. "Golden masters" getting translated to "----- shot a rat" feels very naga drums.

[humble sierra]

Exclusively going off the way it's sung, "Shota" might be 'masters' and "rat" is 'the'

[misty salmon]

we can make it "the golden masters" for a free rat, I'm ok with this.

though if it mostly follows English determiner/adjective/noun order that probably sticks the rat somewhere it's not getting shot. :/

[tall echo]

...maybe... not...

[rich badge]

I think that ra doesn't literally mean 'out of' (which was already said) but rather that it's a connection word. Perhaps similar to 'to' in English or something like that

[hushed gale]

Got a question, people say the operator is immortal and use this as a feat, Is this true? If so how, and where is it shown? Besides the golden bastard destroying our back in the new war

(sorry for bad English)

[lean garden]

is english your first language?

[lean garden]

people say the operator is immortal and use this as a feat
Only in the physical sense, we have hard evidence that other tenno can and have passed away, such as Rell

you cant stab a tenno to death, but you sure can have one of them bind themselves to a physical vessel, get attacked by wally for a very long time and then move on into the afterlife after the physical vessel is destroyed

[hushed gale]

Nah I'm 🇧🇷

[hushed gale]

So basically type 2 or 6 immortality?

[lean garden]

no idea what are those

but if any of them are essentially "immortal unless someone thwacks your brain juice" then its about there

[hushed gale]

Resilient which is to unnatural causes(injuries) and parasitic which is one body dies so you transfer to another

[hushed gale]

Immortal unless someone cuts you from your personal stuck in a wall god

Or he just hates you

[lean garden]

closer to the first one, not the second one

[lean garden]

I dont think its this situation

[hushed gale]

But didn't rell survive by abandoning his human body and being a full time weaponized priest?

[lean garden]

Rell didnt die and then move to Harrow. Rell while still alive moved into Harrow

[hushed gale]

Ohhhh makes sense

So operators can survive most fatal things except having to go to a nursing home?

[lean garden]

most fatal conventional things

[rich stump]

That second one kinda fits the Orokin tho

[hushed gale]

Ok got it

Thanks

[hushed gale]

Fr

[dense herald]

do I do the devuri quest or zariman or whisper in the walls quest first?

[lean garden]

just finished TNW yea? do either duviri or zariman next

[dense herald]

ok

[lean garden]

do those and then do whispers

[feral cape]

Vsbw/csap terms some systems are assigned a "type" immortality has a 1-9 describing different type of immortality

Acausality has 5 types
Transduality has 2
Some other stuff idr

It'd be type 4 or 6 your body will die if left untreated but you can always get another

How are the tenno immortal

A Tenno possesses a degree of immortality via their Oro, a manifestation of their consciousness:

In the Conclave, Teshin tells us how our Oro is "the binding force for an enemy who, like the Tenno, can survive death." This enemy is the Sentients.

Eleanor, who can see all our memories, tells us she doesn't think we can die—at least, not permanently.

Albrecht Entrati mentions Oro, claiming "It was not necessary to explore queasy debates about the Oro; animal minds simply lacked the full distinction of a singular persona," meaning Oro is a quality possessed by any being with a "singular persona."

This aligns with real-world arguments about animal consciousness, suggesting that Oro is likely a form of consciousness itself.

The Sentients can persist after death by separating their consciousness, or Oro, into fragments, making the death of one fragment not affect the whole.

Eleanor compares the Void to a realm of souls. The Void is also the source of the Tenno's power, which allows them to do "impossible things."

The Drifter, in his conversation with Eleanor, states that "Tenno existence doesn't end when the physical body is destroyed," implying the Tenno utilize a metaphysical aspect to persist after death

Tenno can separate their Oro from their body, allowing them to persist after death and, presumably, rebuild or reform a body via unknown means, likely involving Void energy.

Drifter in a conversation with quincy says he's living proof consciousness persists beyond the body

Killing a Tenno would require the ability to crush their consciousness after death.

@hushed gale ^

[lilac aspen]

That being said they can apparently still die

Since Rell had to become his Harrow to survive for so long

[oblique siren]

So, would an animal like an African Grey parrot, which is both about as smart and socially aware/intelligent as a 6 year old human have Oro? 🤔

[feral cape]

Well yea destroy the consciousness

[feral cape]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[eager dragon]

Can we battle them in the Conclave?

[hushed gale]

Yooooo

Thank you bro

Never saw a more detailed explanation about things like this

[feral cape]

Your welcome

Don't listen to people who say that tenno can like rewrite time or some shit for immortality

[lilac aspen]

But
But

“Eternalism.”

[bright temple]

https://tenor.com/view/water-spray-stop-sprinkle-water-gif-11895255

[lilac aspen]

https://tenor.com/view/crying-emoji-dies-gif-21956120

[feral cape]

Also the henceforth named silly squad will try and you tenno convince transcend the conceptual idea of death

[narrow pendant]

another way a tenno couldve died is before war within

before our operator learned the truth about themselves they wouldnt have been able to revive themselves if their current warframe was destroyed

as for rell, its somewhat implied that after we took his burden he was able to rest, in a way implying that as tenno can choose to die if this was the case

choose to let go of their oro to put it in better terms

[lilac garnet]

how does neci end up in duviri?

[narrow pendant]

she accepted a deal wally offered bc she was dying soon anyway and wally was a more longer solution for now

but he doesnt fully possess her, at times he talks through her at times its herself

[restive river]

He’s hollowed her out mostly, she’s still in there but it’s more him than her

[stiff beacon]

rule of thumb: when rusulaka speaks if whatever she says sounds sus its wally, if its something normal its her

[strange plinth]

this.. doesn't seem related
to anything here

[stiff beacon]

no

no it does not

[humble sierra]

<@&778745217037238293>

Bot?

[lyric helm]

What’s wrong mate

[strange plinth]

they seem to be a real person
based on messages in general
but they're still.. off topic in here

[lyric helm]

I sent those videos in good jest as they related to the conversation at hand

Sorry guys

[shell tulip]

Let's keep media related to Warframe, please.

[mortal pivot]

please anyone can help me

[lean garden]

with?

[mortal pivot]

bro look at chat dissapeared

[lean garden]

relog the game then

[mortal pivot]

i restart pc 3 times game 5 times settings 10 times but still same

[waxen crypt]

Guys how probable will it be that we hear the naga drums wink wink in the old peace?

[strange plinth]

unlikely
we might see the old peace break, but there's still a whole second part of the war before the naga drums

[waxen crypt]

Ah, thats a shame, i really wanted to get to play those events

[bronze field]

Also in the future, please double check channels you're posting in. This is #lore-discussion not #1197322290166251680

[dense herald]

how long is the duviri quest?

I just reached the part where we meet teshin and we come back to life

[pale cedar]

Like 2hrs

[past halo]

Wait where do the Prime Sentients come from, do they have like their own little Prime Murex to chill at

[pine mortar]

we don't know yet, the assumption i'm making is that they were the first designed (and sent to tau)

[pale cedar]

Who mentioned Prime Sentients?

[past halo]

Prime Conculyst, Prime Ortholyst, Prime Summulyst

[pale cedar]

Where’s that listed?

[digital grail]

Caliban prime id assume

His summons are technically prime sentients

[past halo]

🙂‍↕️

[pale cedar]

Would just be Sentients made during the brief treaty period

Like Caliban

[past halo]

*Caliban Prime

Regular Caliban was made by Erra

[tall echo]

Semantics

[past halo]

Still. Caliban Prime's sentients have plenty of gold parts and they may be stronger than their base models so that's why I call them Prime Sentients

[tall echo]

Are they actually called prime [sentient]?

[past halo]

I don't have Caliban Prime yet, but I'll still call them that because it fits him if they aren't

[tall echo]

Besides the things he summons are fragments so it's very likely they're just bits of him

[past halo]

I think they were made just specifically to serve him

[tall echo]

By whom

[past halo]

Orokin and Sentients during the peace treaty, remember?

[tall echo]

Fragments so far aren't shown to be able to act independently from their origin

[pale cedar]

There’s almost no real Sentients in the Origin System lol

[past halo]

I don't think the Prime Sentients are fragments, as I said they were specifically made to serve Caliban Prime

[pale cedar]

Then they would be full Sentients not ones he can control

They aren’t shown to be a full Sentient

[past halo]

Again, they were specifically made to work for Caliban Prime

[tall echo]

-lyst sentients are fragments, all the sentient units we fight are fragments, why would these identical summons not be fragments

Think about it for a moment

[past halo]

Then where is the Prime Sentient that spawns the fragments Caliban Prime uses

[woven coyote]

Feels the same as asking where is the ship that causes the bombardment for hydroids 1st

[past halo]

Anyway point still stands. Caliban Prime's Sentients are Prime Sentients and I will keep referring to them as that, we cool? We cool

[lilac aspen]

Prime Sentient Fragments
Or
PSF, for short

[analog glade]

possibly sliding feet, or PSF

[astral sparrow]

this image reminded me about that guy and made me wonder. we have an orokin in captivity we can talk with who is one of if not the last "normal" orokin from the gulden era. it be kind a neat having some new lore or something related to him again for those who didn't play that nightwave season.

[distant ivy]

hey guys question, why did dr entrati send the man in the wall to 1999 what was his thought process behind this plan

[rich badge]

He didn't, wally followed him there

[ashen pulsar]

he was trying to get away from wally

[pale cedar]

He wasn't trying to get away from Wally by going he was trying to keep Wally away from Loid by having Wally go after him instead

[ashen pulsar]

yeah

[lilac aspen]

Yeah
Loid thought he was trying to escape Wally by going through time and causing Wally to get lost trying to follow him through that or whatever lie Entrati made up.

In reality it was never to do that, it was to protect Loid, but Entrati had a hard time putting his feelings into words or something (or because he was worried Wally would try to use his love for Loid against him somehow, which was before Entrati figured out love would severely hinder Wally instead, I think?)

[steel compass]

Honestly could we ever redeem this guy?

like do a 180 on him and make him "pay" for his crimes

by helping loid or idk

[misty salmon]

He is a cephalon at this point, he could be reprogrammed. Not sure that ends up being the same person though as far as redemption or restorative justice go. Or what that would say about our morals.

[glacial bough]

It's unlikely we even could given he's the only person that knows good Cephalons work to begin with

[hexed oxide]

does glassing have anything to do with cephalons ?

[tall echo]

yes

[hexed oxide]

like, could nihil's victims be turned into cephalons or did he really just turn them into inert glass ?

[tall echo]

Creating cephalons involved glassing

[hexed oxide]

i do know that bit but i was wondering about nihil's victims

[tall echo]

Glassing does not necessarily mean cephalonizing

And the method to it is definitely lost since nihil would never tell

[woven coyote]

Part of the whole vain faith thing too

If you are too simmetrical you look like a clone and clones are slaves

Tho not all orokin had the arm if you go by albrecht and nihil

I have wondered in the past that the larger arm could also fit some augmentations and cybernetic interfaces

But the biggest thing is really just an old art pannel iirc

Dont think the arm is acknowledged in game as far as i remember

[lilac aspen]

Nihil probably needed normal arms to do his job

I can’t imagine wielding that Greatsword with asymmetrical limbs would be comfortable

[restive river]

Didn’t Ballas stab us?

[lilac aspen]

Well yeah
I’m just saying I can see it get annoying to do repeatably

[restive river]

Yeah

[tall echo]

Well you could literally go check

[lilac aspen]

I could but I’m sinking into the couch dimension.
Send help

[tall echo]

Nah

[proper barn]

He has long armsm

[lilac aspen]

[hexed oxide]

it is mentioned once afaik

in the zariman inside the vents you can find a hologram thing of executor tuvul i think it is

he explains the longer arm is to symbolize their extended generosity or smth along those lines

here

[brittle siren]

My Theory that Albrecht does not extend his arm because he did not want to lie

[hexed oxide]

i think it's bc he's a bit autistic-coded

maybe the arm would've prevented him from doing research as efficiently as he wanted

[brittle siren]

true

but he did said let me a honest villain or sth

"If I must be a demon, let me be an honest one. Let me prove my nature by what I do next."

[stiff beacon]

the amount of cap in that sentence is ridiculous

[hexed oxide]

what does that mean ?

[humble sierra]

"Cap" = lies

Don't ask about the etymology

[hexed oxide]

the zariman crew were crearly and openly defying the seven. solution ? glass them, glass them, and glass them again

https://youtube.com/shorts/hwpvlNnhsFI?si=1X0Yx6XLvTLEEv-V i can actually see at least one of them yelling this at the table or wherever they took this kind of decisions

[restive river]

He had the non-long arm before that

[brittle siren]

I mean Albrecht would be honest about mostly everything he did, unlike Ballas make everything he committed as excuse for "justice"

[restive river]

I don’t think we have too much on how honest he was before the wally incident so idk about that

He was an Orokin like any other for the most part

[brittle siren]

true

[graceful sand]

is Sevagoth cool

Also is he canonically the strongest frame

[proper barn]

Yes

[proper barn]

Hard to answer power level questions. Chroma is said to be very strong/strongest.

[lean garden]

welcome to lore sombra

[proper barn]

We don't often have warframes fighting.

[lean garden]

just one of, not The

[proper barn]

Gotcha.

[desert oak]

Lore!Atlas punching a meteor out of the sky is really hard to beat in terms of raw power scaling given the potential energy in those things.

[violet storm]

I mean, Sevagoth’s Railjack sent a woman to the void

[graceful sand]

Can’t Sevagoth literally not die

[lean garden]

hey so

[proper barn]

His RJ is broken.

[lean garden]

remember call of the tempestarii

and who died in the premise of that quest

[proper barn]

Okay Atlas breaks the astroroid that was already heavily modified and does it by attacking its already weak points.

[lean garden]

eh, we have mining ops that do mechanically similar things irl, he aint special

[proper barn]

Lul that's not how I would

Word it. Lmao.

Also he gets his rumblers to help.

[graceful sand]

Uhh idk my heart

Sevagoth didn’t die cause he’s still in my heart 🌹 💘

[proper barn]

In the quest he is dead and his shadow wants you yo help him lay his body to rest.

[desert oak]

Harrow.

[proper barn]

Harrow is piloted by Rell

[desert oak]

I just had a brain blast, doesn't Harrow arguably violate the laws of physics with his kit?

[proper barn]

Rell holds down Wally.

Which is very impressive.

[graceful sand]

Damn 😔 😞

[proper barn]

Many frames do.

Don't look at nova.

[graceful sand]

The only kit I know is valkyr.. ha.. ha..

[violet storm]

Do we know how harrow how can to be, no. Is he cool? Yes

[desert oak]

I'm not talking about Rell and Wally. I'm talking about Harrow's ability to violate the laws of thermodynamics by creating energy.

[proper barn]

Yes

Nova also breaks

All laws of physics.

Lavos breaks laws of how elements work.

Cuz alchemy isn't real.

[violet storm]

She turned a rail pirate into fuel for a antimatter reactor during the masker’s theodolite incident

[desert oak]

Nova and Qorvex are walking Armageddons, but the spontaneous creation of energy is legitimately insane.

[violet storm]

Nova

[proper barn]

Yee

[lean garden]

your heart is sevagoth so yea, thats a correct statement

[proper barn]

@desert oak @violet storm @graceful sand if you wish to go on your on mini lore research quest. Where Kiaths a real creature?

[graceful sand]

Huh

[violet storm]

Uh

Yesnt?

[proper barn]

In warframe

[desert oak]

I stopped engaging with the fiction of horses when I had a Fallout fan yell at me about it for twenty minutes.

[proper barn]

In warframes lore where kaiths real outside of duviri.

[lean garden]

I mean, it wouldnt really say its breaking any laws (beyond what normal soft scifi does) its really just a fun application of the sort

[proper barn]

Lul.

I just like seeing peoples process of thinking.

This question is a good like "how do you consume information in media question." @desert oak

[violet storm]

Considering Dagath summons a bunch of em for her Four, I think Kaithes were real outside Duviri

[lean garden]

I mean by that logic any warframe with an energy generating ability is doing so

[proper barn]

Are you sure? We see other creatures where made up from duviri. Dagath is a Calavry woman though. Dax are in duviri and they are real though.

[desert oak]

But also, there's pictures of Kaithes on the Zariman. They must have existed outside of Duviri, but whether or not that existence was as recurring fictional characters or not is... Confusing. Dagath's lore specifically says 'horse'.

One has to wonder if 'horse' became her Kaithes because of the influence of Dagath's Operator.

[violet storm]

The Dax, Kexats and Kubries were a part of tales of Duviri, same with Kaithes. Very likely Kexats and Kubries drew inspiration from existing counterparts in Warframe

I see your point

[proper barn]

They are pictures from the book. The kids would have read this book to prepare for void travel. Its kinda like having a MLP sticker.

[proper barn]

Dagath didn't have a operator.

[desert oak]

That we know of?

[proper barn]

I mean specifically she didn't until like after the head hollowing she couldn't have.

[desert oak]

Oh, of course. I'm not implying she had one before that.

[violet storm]

I do Wonder what a Face having Daghath looks like

[proper barn]

We know.

[desert oak]

Dagath Prime, babey!

[proper barn]

We see her face.

We even have glyphs from Halloween events.

Her face is the mask in the dagaths hollow.

[desert oak]

Also the Hollow's got the original mask-face.

[proper barn]

She always had a smiling face and it made the couple feel guilty.

[violet storm]

That’s creepy

[desert oak]

God I hope Dagath Prime comes with this as an optional helmet.

[violet storm]

Not gonna lie, I prefer faceless Dagath

[proper barn]

@desert oak @violet storm btw the answer is we don't know about if Kaithes existed. They seem to be like basically Unicorn fanasty horses. But Dax also exist in duviri maybe we will see a skin on verison of a kaith later.

[strange plinth]

so did the orokin couple lmao

[proper barn]

I assumed that was what she would have as a prime like a ghost face

[proper barn]

Closer to this

With a closed mouth though.

[violet storm]

Funny how most Warframe’s don’t have discernible facial features most of the time

[swift sentinel]

Dagath was made special so the face was probably part of that whole deal

[desert oak]

Ballas, after a rip of Kuva: "You know what would be crazy? Warframe with a creepy ass face."

[proper barn]

@desert oak something interesting about the Dagath Couple btw is they wanted to have Dagath do continuity. Which would be the first non-orokin we know of to do it but she was like too far gone by the time they reached her.

[violet storm]

Ballas is(was) a madman and a monster. He probably knew what he was doing

[desert oak]

I like to imagine Ballas off his gourd, Kuva Bong in hand, going "Yo... Imagine if... Bird was Warframe... And had wind powers..."

[swift sentinel]

More like "Oh. you want her back. What if she looked so happy to see you all the time

[proper barn]

This reminds me

Albretch and Loid where doing Drugs and Loid couldn't hang so Albretch got bored and made the cavia.

[desert oak]

I believe it, I met someone once who got a dog every time she broke up with someone.

[proper barn]

Oh honey no

That's not what the cavia where made for.

[proper barn]

Also did you read this?

[desert oak]

She went from two to seven in the time I knew her.

I seem to remember another Dax being offered Continuity?

Not a Dax. I seem to remember Ordan being offered it.

Checking for a source on that...

[violet storm]

That was a trick

[proper barn]

No

It was not.

[proper barn]

It was geniue.

Ordan was doing a trick and they knew he might try to kill them.

But they would have actually made him a orokin if he said yes.

@desert oak I found the passage.

[desert oak]

"Only angered further by the Orokin's offer of becoming an Orokin himself blessed with eternal life, Ordan initiated a suicidal beyond-return state and successfully killed all of the Orokin nearest him, or so he thought."

[proper barn]

Loid is a Lightweight. But also I love the idea they got high all the time together

Cus they had nothing else to do.

[desert oak]

Also arguably Rell maybe underwent Continuity by permanently putting himself into Harrow? Jury's out on that one.

[proper barn]

He did that to hold down Wally to be fair.

[violet storm]

Well it certainly kept him ‘round longer

[desert oak]

The line between Transference and Continuity with him is fuzzy.

[proper barn]

God my Autistic boy really stopped Wally from invading the world

For 1000+ years.

[violet storm]

Shame he is no longer with us
Truly RIP Rell

[desert oak]

"...Rell eventually and willingly sacrificed himself in a ritual the Veil believed would seal The Indifference out of the mortal plane. Rell's mind was bound to his Warframe, Harrow, which was then chained in the Red Veil's sacred temple in an Orokin Derelict."

Yeah, that feels more like Continuity than Transference but it's not something I would feel comfortable saying for certain either way.

[proper barn]

I love this part of Albretchs notes

"Stop debating oro its stupid also my cats baller"

[violet storm]

Kalymos truly is a good girl.

[proper barn]

I always hated talking about oro

Cuz its like crusty old lore I hate.

And DE agrees.

Lmao.

[desert oak]

DE! Let me have a proper date night with Eleanor where we take Kalymos on a walk and my life is yours!

[violet storm]

I will fight tooth and nail for the that cat(kavat)

[desert oak]

The Kalymos of Theseus.

[proper barn]

That's more appropriate than you know.

[desert oak]

I hope we never get an answer to the clone Kalymos question. I like a bit of ambiguity in my morally grey characters.

[proper barn]

Clone?

I think it's closer to like Kalymos might also have been exposed to the Void to make her feel better.

I think she can secretly talk like the cavia.

[willow stream]

I’ve always found that theory hilarious. Kalymos being capable of talking and is choosing not to just so we think she doesn’t understand what we’re saying or doing.

Imagine the looks on peoples faces if she starts talking and admits to hearing and/or seeing everything you and your partner do.

[dull sphinx]

It's a good setup. Imagine Kalymos butting in with some insight and when questioned about being able to speak but chosing not to, responding with "Well, so far you were doing just fine without my advice"

[tall echo]

Consider that she's always in the backroom...

[distant lagoon]

Kalymos has seemingly died at least once, probably twice. And Albrecht refused to risk her in void experiments. So likely she's been cloned, Loid even says so.

[lilac aspen]

“Yeah, Yeah, Oro and whatever but have you seen my Cat do a backflip?”

[tall echo]

Kalymos must've seen stuff

[stiff beacon]

I mean sure unless you account for the glowing eyes she shares with the cavia

[distant lagoon]

That is a thing for sure and void exposure would explain kalymos's abilities. But only Albrecht can answer that one, the cavia aren't aware of it if it happened.

[tall echo]

And a lot of other kavats for some reason

[hexed egret]

Is the Uriel devil frame gonna explore why the Tennos are referred to as "Devils"

could see it being connected to the quest

[proper barn]

probably not. Also they are called that cuz they have void powers.

that's it. the unknow is often demonized.

[north jolt]

I doubt it because I don't think thats a particular detail that really needs to be explored that deeply. They're called devils probably because they are seen as inhuman, monsters to be kept on short leashes, "born" from the closest thing to hell (that we know of) in the Warframe universe

Ballas in particular having seen what just the operators are capable of when they lash out was particularly distrusting and as far as I remember is the one most often calling them "devils"

[distant lagoon]

Also we blinded his gf and "stole" her affections

[median osprey]

"gf"

[old dome]

she was actually his gf... it was a whole toxic relationship

[median osprey]

No no, I'm aware

[distant lagoon]

Then no quotes apply, they were together

[meager vapor]

I never understood what the duviri kingdom is, like I know the children were stuck on the zariman in the void, faced some horrors, and the lotus rescues them. But where does the drifter come into play

[median osprey]

Drifter is the you (the operator) that didn't take the deal
cause of eternalism both are real
And duviri was a twisting of the drifter's thoughts and emotions based on a story book into their refuge, and eventually own personal hell

[lean garden]

drifter took the deal

[meager vapor]

Duviri is all in the drifters head?

[lean garden]

you took the deal, splitting you into operator and drifter, so drifter took the deal

[lean garden]

out of drifters head

[median osprey]

Duviris a real place in the void
its formed based on the drifter's thoughts

[meager vapor]

Ohhh okay

[median osprey]

its a manifestation

[hushed gale]

Yo so on the old peace trailer we saw the operator out of the somatic link on tau but he can use transference at will, but at this time Margulis has his full powers locked right? So that means the old peace is like another reality or the Tauron suit has an embedded somatic link or something like that?

[median osprey]

Ah for the Drifter, theyre the only survivor of the Zariman (in the lore fragments)

[lean garden]

none like that

we dont know why the operator is out like that during the old peace

but the old peace is absolutely a replay of our past animus style

[median osprey]

they werent always in the things
in the old war quest iirc they werent linked

could also be a minor retcon

[normal mountain]

No
The Drifter just got left behind when the other kids were rescued
Wally decided to use a loophole in the deal
"I said I'd save them. Never said I'd save you."

[hushed gale]

I saw some theories that it might be another reality/outcome like the drifter

[lean garden]

those theories are outright wrong

like its directly stated by the devs to be what happened during the old war

[hushed gale]

No? But space step-dad said margulis hid our powers away, and she died before the old war i think

[normal mountain]

Just like 1999 is the actual ancient past

[lean garden]

died during

[hushed gale]

Ohhh cool, didn't actually see the entire tennocon explanation sorry

[median osprey]

retcon likely

not uncommon if something just doesnt fit no more

[lean garden]

doesnt have to be

[hushed gale]

Didn't she die because she didn't want orokin to use transference as a weapon? So like they executed her THEN used transference as a weapon?

Can't see her letting them do that while she's alive

[median osprey]

It miiight be, miight not

warframe lore is somewhat convoluted.. somewhat

[lean garden]

I mean yea, but this all happens during the old war

zariman only reemerges during the old war, as shown by kullervos crimes

[hushed gale]

Oh yeah for sure

[lean garden]

corroborated by silvanna who was happy the transference project wasnt part of the war

[hushed gale]

I find it weird that margulis hid our powers but at the old peace we are at the peak

[normal mountain]

It's entirely possible some of the Kiddos were willing to fight
I can't imagine she'd say no if they really wanted to

[median osprey]

they mostly fought the sentients with infested and grineer at that point

then the zariman appears
and then they used necramechs
and finally good ol warfrmaes

[lean garden]

but also its less of she didnt want them to weaponise the kids and moreso she insulted the orokin

[hushed gale]

The focus ultimates means we have access to the rest of the void powers which means we are at the peak

But at that time she had our powers hidden right?

Or am i just spilling nonsense

[median osprey]

could be that we were hidden away after the old peace

[hushed gale]

Overprotective mamma wouldn't let

[hushed gale]

Oh for sure

[normal mountain]

So the kids snuck out
It happens

[glacial bough]

Not really, we still had extensive focus powers before War Within

[distant lagoon]

It literally cannot be. Besides the fact that DE has said it's the real past, all of our other selves except Op and Drifter were killed in our Wally deal

[hushed gale]

Could be, but isn't the old peace in the middle of the war? After her execution?

[glacial bough]

War Within let us work without frames, we still had the majority of our focus powers without it

[median osprey]

not sure yet
could be positioned that its
old peace, hide away, execution

[normal mountain]

Maybe, maybe not
We don't know enough yet

[hushed gale]

We had as transcendence not transference and "free roam" we were bound to a somatic link

[median osprey]

they all happen mid-old war

we dont know the order

[hushed gale]

But could also be that

[distant lagoon]

It's before execution. One thing we know she did was suppress most of our powers, and that hasn't happened during the old peace

[median osprey]

when old peace releases we will likely see the order of things and how they play out
as well as any retcons if needs be

[hushed gale]

And she did a pretty good job

[glacial bough]

We needed the link to use frames, yes

We still had Void abilities, starting with our basic beam

[hushed gale]

Yeah

We still had the raw void

And the focus of course

But like the only possible two explanations i think are: Margulis hasn't hid most of our powers yet or tauron/sentients has some way to amplify or unlock our full capabilities

[median osprey]

the former is probably more likely but the latter could be possible (consider: eidolon shards can be used to gain focus, a sentient recourse)

[distant lagoon]

Definitely both

Tauron enabled ults for the op schools

[lean garden]

very sure now: devs said so

oh wait didnt read that statement right

still unsure yes, but her execution must come before the utilisation of the tenno in warframes

[meager vapor]

What is kullervo’s lore, why is he stuck in duviri? And I saw memes something about kullervos sword? I haven’t farmed him yet so idk

[lean garden]

kullervo was a pre-tenno warframe who managed to avoid being destroyed like his other siblings after the warframe insurrection. Subsequently he gets thrown/escapes into duviri

[lean garden]

as for his sword, the jokes are likely about the fact that its a skin and not an actual weapon

[median osprey]

makes it tricky then
cause the tenno uses a warframe on tauron

[lean garden]

I mean, you are the ambassador for the Orokin

who knows what theyve unlocked to have you there...

but Margulis must die before this happens

[misty salmon]

Not finding the evidence that Margulis had to have died before the warframes were weaponised. She opposed it, but she didn't really have any power or authority to countermand an order from the Seven.

Eventually they got tired of her angry memos and public criticism and offed her, but that could have been quite far into the actual child soldier project, particularly if she had been enjoying some amount of protection from her relationship with Ballas.

[lean garden]

Its located in TSD/WW dialogue

Critically ballas tells margulis that the tenno should be destroyed, and that she should recant before the Seven tomorrow, to which the next day she insults them further and is executed

immediately after that the audio plays where Ballas suggests incorporating the Transference project into the warframe project

[misty salmon]

Silvana describes the project as somewhat directed by Margulis, "she needed the best Infestation biologist there was", initially describes it as therapeutic. She is still discussing Margulis in the present tense when the disillusionment with the warframe project sets in.

Ballas claiming to want to destroy them is probably a lie, as he doesn't follow through. There is no mention in there about turning them into soldiers either, which is a bit odd if that was the supposed reason for her execution. The topic seems more to be her maiming, but persistence in seeing the Tenno as good and worthwhile.

Isolated snippets from known unreliable narrators are such a pain to parse though, particularly when he's actively trying to play everybody against each other.

[normal mountain]

Come to think of it, Ballas also "wanted to destroy" the Sentients
Wonder if he pulled the same trick with the Tenno

[stiff beacon]

yes his tried and true method of gaslight gatekeep and girlbossing

[lean garden]

she specifically says that margulis is as much a victim as the tenno, given that she was indeed executed, it stands to reason that her victimhood still fits in the present tense

[lean garden]

ballas cites her injury by the tenno as reason for them to be destroyed, but specifically he says she needs to renounce before the Seven

We also know that Margulis put the tenno into the pods, the lotus shaped ones, which we know are on lua. Ballas when bringing up the Transference project references that we're on lua

[lean garden]

actually hell, we can't see if its a present tense or not since silvanna says "she**'s** as much a victim..."

[misty salmon]

generally she's is still accepted as a contraction of "she is" or "she has" (in the form: she has done something), rather than "she was"
similarly we're from later in the sentence has an accepted definition as "we are" rather than "we were"

[median osprey]

linguistically
that'd be "she is" or was, but was is reliant on tenses in the rest of the sentence

[misty salmon]

Silvana, The Silver Grove: "My childhood dream has become a nightmare. I don't blame Margulis, she's as much a victim as the children we're working with. At first, the project seemed therapeutic and nurturing. I was myself. But now... Transference therapy is being turned into a weapon. Now I build these vile weapons called "Warframes" all for one purpose: death. I've become everything I hate."

[median osprey]

with that context, it's either
"She is as much a victim as the children we are working with"
would insinuate she's still alive
and
"She was as much a victim as the children we are working with"
insinuates she's already been executed

-# which then you look at the timeline for the real answer, if before execution, is, if after, was

[lean garden]

and given that the progression of the audio flashbacks in lua during TSD, I think it far more likely that Margulis had already been executed by the time Silvana gets sucked into the warframe project

[median osprey]

reading it, yeah most likely

-# technically the warframe project is older than the transference one, but silvana was involved in that after the transference project

[lean garden]

bingpot

[median osprey]

Rhino was hungry :)

[plain dagger]

So I'd like to bring something to the table

With the announcement and trailer of the old peace. I'd like to offer an idea orokin or sentient rivals like the liches or the sisters of parvos

Booyah

Hem hem

We have one for the corpus the infested the grineer but we DONT have one for the orokin or sentient closest thing we have to that is the stalker and his shadows on steel path

Hem hem

[brittle siren]

Sentient sure (for real Tau update)

[plain dagger]

Yeah I'd like to hope if we do get a new one it'd be sentient rivals

[brittle siren]

Orokin? They are all dead at the present beside Entrati family

[plain dagger]

Wellllll.... PRESENTLY they are..wink..tau..wink..tau

[brittle siren]

Um

[strange plinth]

(and nihil, not that he's much of a threat either)

[brittle siren]

That is memory

[plain dagger]

Well

[brittle siren]

and we are literally on Orokin side that time

[plain dagger]

We dont quite know how that will function in terms of gameplay yet

[lean garden]

presently? nah

[plain dagger]

It's really up to d.e. but if anything it's highly likely we will get sentient rivals over orokin

[lean garden]

We have barely any info for presently, aside from that being sentients only club

[plain dagger]

Or we get could corrupted variants of liches who drop idk like prime Kuva weapons or some shit

[brittle siren]

Orokin empire is long dead, unless there is survivor, which I doubt they even appear rn since Ballas and Nilhil did return and fail really hard

[plain dagger]

Nilhil got the Amazon package treatment

[median osprey]

theres a few survivors
Ballas was one
The entrati family are
as well as the lich queens

[plain dagger]

Ngl id actually love to see sentient rivals the more I think about it the more I want it

Because it's not really UNHEARD of just unlikely due to you know.. archon hunts

[strange plinth]

still not enough to make an adversary system for
we're allied with half of the remaining orokin and the other half are dead or busy with existing things

[plain dagger]

But they aren't really sentient

[brittle siren]

Tbh Orokin (Corrupted faction) is just "harder" enemy when DE first introduced them, so the only real Orokin enemy is the Dax (in the Old Peace) and old Grineer

[median osprey]

definitely not enough for it yeah

[plain dagger]

Ooh wait

Dax rivals? Nah probably not maybe a duiviri rival variant

[median osprey]

archon hunts are like corpus amalgams

but for warframes instead of moa and ospreys

-# and a sentient adversary would likely not be archon related

[plain dagger]

Yeah I was thinking

We already have ENOUGH archon stuff..eugh my poor dps frames

It would be really interesting to see just raw sentient rivals like liches or sisters of parvos due to the way they look

I feel bad for the modeling team lol

[median osprey]

I could imagine them being related to Mimics
(Like lotus is, as well as the sentients that copy the recourses on the ground)

[plain dagger]

Ooh wait that's actually

A really good idea with the drop of the old peace mimics would be a great addition

[hushed gale]

Kahl will be the one to save us from the corrupted entrati in the end of the tau quest, mark my words

[median osprey]

their gimick being that they could blend in with other sentient guys in the field and youd need to find them (with subtle clues to this one is not normal)

[plain dagger]

Lol

[misty salmon]

It's all Adis, just with progressively more ridiculous weapon contraptions. (a la old cartoons)

[plain dagger]

Does he know something we dont?

This guy might be a prophet

[median osprey]

the sentient Kobold Kanun

[plain dagger]

LOLL

Kobold "kanun"

Id imagine the sentient weapons are quite range focused over melee maybe we can get the battylst stick

[median osprey]

For adversaries, i could not see one existing for Murmur
given they're adversaries and well

murmur is- indifferent

[plain dagger]

YES BUT not really due to them being..we'll just a wave not really any unique-ness

Itd be fire though 🔥

[median osprey]

big stinky part about coda
theyre not really infested

cause infested are a different faction to techrot, and thus arent counted for the infested bane mods

[plain dagger]

And it would..KINDA make sense just how would they armour and make murmur weapons?

Well I mean they are a strain of infested

Do I count them

[hushed gale]

Shook the hand of someone that weirdly resembles me

[median osprey]

TF2 Unarmed Combat, its just a silvery arm

[plain dagger]

Yes I do

[strange plinth]

fair enough then

[plain dagger]

Now that im thinking about it we dont really have murmur weapons so this is a good idea

Also no clem and kahl both work to save us from the end of the old peace

Trust

[median osprey]

Veso also dies, again

[plain dagger]

Poor guy

Hey he's cool

[strange plinth]

poor venmo

[plain dagger]

VENMO

[median osprey]

they killed VELOX NOOO

[misty salmon]

Velcro needs a name that sticks.

[plain dagger]

That's some disrespect I never could have come up with NO VELVET!

[hushed gale]

Clem and kahl will fuse using kuva and overpower the indifference

[plain dagger]

Is this deagon ball W?

[hushed gale]

Maybe

Could see it happening

[plain dagger]

Or the indifference will lose to yaoi.. again

[hushed gale]

Hell yeah

[plain dagger]

Turns out wally is just really scared of love and is also a redditor

[hushed gale]

But if wally maybe is made of part of entrati

That means

[plain dagger]

Wally is gay?!??!?!?

[hushed gale]

ENTRATI IS A GAY REDDITOR?

[plain dagger]

checks out actually

He has the jotaro fit on

[hushed gale]

Oh fr

[median osprey]

hows he scared
emotion makes you a target silly

[hushed gale]

That explains a lot

[plain dagger]

Well he kinda did back away from the power of gay love

[strange plinth]

entrati could never be a redditor, he's in a relationship

[hushed gale]

Man really hope we can use his fit

[plain dagger]

I second this

Kahl kills entrati

[hushed gale]

Rare species

[median osprey]

those exist

not for long, but those exist

[hushed gale]

But then loid becomes sad

We don't want a sad loid

[plain dagger]

Clem kills loid

[hushed gale]

YOU MONSTER

[plain dagger]

No I'm writing a tragedy

[hushed gale]

I second this

[median osprey]

pah

loid'll get over it

[hushed gale]

Unfortunately it will happen

Wally just told me bro

[median osprey]

we just gotta do 3 million bounties with loid, just like we did with mother

[plain dagger]

And darvo finally obtains the yanus key from vor and becomes the god of scamming

[median osprey]

and he'll let go of albrecht

[hushed gale]

Darvo will get the ability to be Microsoft's support

[plain dagger]

The man in the wall has a rap battle against erra ..because I said so?

LOL

[hushed gale]

Against pazzul for erra's freedom

[plain dagger]

Holy shit that's actually

[lime meadow]

Know there’s other discussions going on, but I’ve been bouncing this song my brain for a while. Somebody’s gotta get subjected to it, good luck and goodnight.
Also, the vengeful void-ghost of Veko is going to come back to conquer Tau, propelled by love from the community and rage at everybody GETTING HIS NAME WRONG!

Anybody ever contemplate symbolism in the story? Warframe seems to take a lot of ideas and inspiration from Daoist and Buddhist philosophy from my view. Not just aesthetically, but in terms of how the Operator’s questline shows a progression of learning to “let go” in a sense that feels especially Daoist in direction and execution. I feel like I see a steady progression of The Operator and The Drifter learning to accept their respective realities and subjectivities, and let go of the harmful things that bind them in place in the collections of circumstances that form their respective realities.
The interpretation of meaning is a dialogue between author and reader, or in our case dev team and player, inspired by the shared aspects of your experience of reality and layers of associated concepts you may sometimes not even realize you’ve internalized or connected in your mind. This is just my subjective take on the story, but I feel like the Operator and Drifter quests are confronting us with the questions you ask in a process of self-actualization. Not that cheap, new-age “self discovery” malarkey crystal mommies and MLM weirdos peddle to sell mugs and “zen retreats”, but the process of understanding and accepting an understanding of the self and how the shape that drives you to take, as well as the process of trying to build yourself into that shape in a world that doesn’t always necessarily want you to.
Anybody else kinda see this? Any moments in the quests that pop out to you when viewed through this lens?

[hushed gale]

HOLY SHIT

[plain dagger]

WALL OF DOON

Doon?

[lime meadow]

Have fun

[plain dagger]

Your pfp is.. interesting

[lime meadow]

Thanks, hon.

[plain dagger]

DONT HURT ME

[median osprey]

Veko? you mean Vasto?

[plain dagger]

STAY BACK IM GAY

Veso becomes a hollow from bleach and turns into a Vasto lorde?

[lime meadow]

See, that’s what I’m talking about right there. You’re inviting his vengeful ghost over for lunch

[median osprey]

or was it Vesper 77...

[hushed gale]

Operator is becoming indifferent while the drifter becomes lovely

[plain dagger]

Viper?

[hushed gale]

Boo

[median osprey]

Vectis

[plain dagger]

Vome

[hushed gale]

Which season does he become an arrancar?

[lime meadow]

Veno

[plain dagger]

Venus?

[median osprey]

what if we mashed Vome and Fass together

[lime meadow]

After he steals the Hogyoku

[plain dagger]

The thousand year tau arc

[hushed gale]

Visco

[plain dagger]

Viral?

[hushed gale]

• heat?

[median osprey]

Velox

[plain dagger]

Ahhh Virulent scourge!

[median osprey]

naw + cold

[hushed gale]

Bruh

[plain dagger]

Vector...?

[hushed gale]

Vile

[median osprey]

more crit damage, yummers

[lime meadow]

Delicious

[median osprey]

Viral + Cold + Pierce

figure out how youre getting viral and cold at the same time yourself (prolly panzer vulpaphyla)

[plain dagger]

Oh yeah also uhm the lotus has a lesbian relationship with aoi confirmed by me and my futuresight

[median osprey]

nOOO BUT AOI'S MIIINE

[hushed gale]

Damn

[plain dagger]

I DONT CARE!

[median osprey]

RWcry

[hushed gale]

Yuri's gonna win

[plain dagger]

I want it..NOW or tomorrow PREFERABLY NOW

[median osprey]

-# its still yuri :) female drifter go brrt

[plain dagger]

Honey our sentients have come to eat our souls for making them send in the space orphans!

[hushed gale]

Why the operator suffers

[median osprey]

DE when can i have Drifter on profile instead of operator

thatd be nice

[hushed gale]

While the drifter doesn't have a tv?

Oh shit he has

[plain dagger]

Gurt kills the indifference

[lime meadow]

Why don’t the Drifter have a fish tank?

[median osprey]

flooding the backrooms with water

[hushed gale]

The spaceship is still in the operator's name

[lean garden]

You can simultaneously approach it from a psychoanalytical lense (or if you want more empirical shingdigs, actual psychology lol)

[plain dagger]

Bopp bipp becomes a mainline antagonist

[hushed gale]

Ok how do i access the fish black market?

[median osprey]

Using the Operator in the Backrooms is anachronistic

[plain dagger]

Prime fish 200p

[hushed gale]

I'm selling 3 of any fish for 2000p

[plain dagger]

Not to be confused with fish PRIME which is very rare at a whopping infiniteP

[median osprey]

why no orokin fish in duviri fr

[hushed gale]

Space time disruption

[plain dagger]

Swear

[median osprey]

heck

[plain dagger]

AHHH

Im telling the lotus

[hushed gale]

I think it would be cool for the operator to interact with the hex or the romanced member

[plain dagger]

Or.

The man in the wall

[median osprey]

out of confusion most likely

[plain dagger]

Kinda weird considering you know space child

But hey you know

[median osprey]

"youre that guy we're friends with but like.. smaller, what the heck"

[hushed gale]

"hi kid my name's Arthu-"
i have committed more genocides then lives you've taken in a war

[plain dagger]

Id like to point out

Everyone in the hex knows of the operators existence

[median osprey]

checks stats
wow i've killed a lot of grineer

[median osprey]

but canonically they havnt actually seen or spoken to the operator, only the drifter

[plain dagger]

Yeah I guess that changes soon..ish

[median osprey]

-# cause operator was told to stay, and drifter was sent to 1999

[hushed gale]

Eleanor seems fond of us

[plain dagger]

Yuppers

[hushed gale]

For now

The big crossover will happen

[median osprey]

for now yes, but at this point, canonically none of the hex have seen the operator yet, but do know of

[hushed gale]

Do y'all have headcannons for how your operators are? Like emotionally, mentally, etc

[lime meadow]

I could see that. I feel like I see a lot of ideas especially found in Dialectal Behavioral Therapy kinda applying to the Operator’s and Drifter’s personal growth as you go though the quests. I mean, DBT was made for treating s**cidal ideation, a lot of the best way to do that is providing paths to confront trauma, which is usually deeply psycho-physical (transcending barriers of body and mind) in the context of the game.
I really like the stuff that’s being explored in Holvania with the Drifter in that sense especially. It feels currently relevant. (DE got some writers talking about some very currently relevant topics in Holvania and the Scaldra)

[median osprey]

Oh i subscribe to the theory that our operators are similar to Rell

Just a little less noticible

(hence why they are much more stable during the whole zariman incident)

and a lot harder crack.. or... indifferent if you will

[hushed gale]

Damn for me that child is full blown evil or even indifferent sometimes

[median osprey]

While drifter is far more emotional and socially aware (despite.. duviri.)

[hushed gale]

What did you do when you got those powers?
I embraced it

[median osprey]

Drifter: "No idea, weird hand thing"

[hushed gale]

Also drinking the kuva

But i went neutral

[glacial bough]

Drifter is more emotional, but is defnitely not more socially aware

[median osprey]

i discarded it

i did all the white options, except i chose Lotus over Natah

[median osprey]

In my head i split socially aware from socially skilled

cause god they are not socially skilled

[hushed gale]

To me the operator is indifferent to most things

Being an individual who suffered and fought in war

[glacial bough]

That's a fair take, but is not much supported by actions

[hushed gale]

And I don't think the operator dislikes wally, at worst their relationship is oblivious

We don't see the operator hating on wally

Just the drifter

[glacial bough]

The Operator is constantly getting involved just for the sake of it or just to help an ally

[hushed gale]

In sacrifice he even just responds wally

[hushed gale]

Yeah there's this part

They do it maybe because that's what margulis taught them

[median osprey]

I generally play it as theyre Numb to these things, they were already kinda indifferent
but the old war and orokin experimentation just made them extra numb
more logical than emotional

while Drifter went a different path with their circular torture, getting more emotional (considering they considered Thrax their friend at a point)

[hushed gale]

Even if he doesn't exactly feel the need to do that he does for his mamma

[hushed gale]

Exactly

[glacial bough]

It's very much more than taught, the basic dialogue from second dream also shows this

[hushed gale]

I don't exactly remember the dialogues sorry

[hushed gale]

Drifter has way more reason to be emotional and hate the indifference or things like that

[glacial bough]

Even beyond the the Op dialogue are always clear personal stances, like the end of Glast Gambit

[median osprey]

The operator has so many layers of trauma

Loss of parents
Combat
Whatever the hell the orokin did experiment wise
and then losing lotus

[hushed gale]

The operator sees it as someone who he striked a deal to save the children

And himself

But the drifter wasn't saved

My theory is that the operator has the thinking of like the void did this to the adults, not wally

Maybe he thinks wally is a conceptual embodiment

At least thats what i think

[glacial bough]

Very likely not, The Op is just as much in the know of things as Drifter is

[lime meadow]

There’s a part in the Kinematic messages with Arthur that makes me think a lot about the symbolism behind The Indifference. What is That meant to represent in what the game is saying? I think it might be the most explicit, yet most misdirecting, naming convention in the game.

Arthur is piss drunk and messaging you asking about “how many times we’ve been through this“ and just generally having an emotional breakdown. Really relatable ngl.
But as the Drifter you have the option to tell him that he’s supposed to feel all those things he’s feeling. You feel him to not let them go, to feel them, ALL OF THEM, the fear and anger and sadness and despair and joy and relief and hope and even a teeny-tiny pinch of indifference sometimes.

What is The Indifference so indifferent to? It wants something, something which would make a difference to it. Right now it wants to recover a stolen finger, but if it’s The Indifference wouldn’t it not really care for losing a part? Why would it matter to something that isn’t supposed to care?

[median osprey]

oh yes for sure this
cause the deal was after the parents were driven insane

but likely also exploited the knowledge of the situation to do it

[lime meadow]

Oops I did it again

[glacial bough]

It's fair, we haven't had a clear out stance from the Op since they have been as directly involved as of late

[glacial bough]

What makes Wally Indifferent is that he doesn't care

[strange plinth]

the indifference seems to be more of what it does or feeds off of, rather than a descriptor of itself

[median osprey]

Note that the indifference is not wally

as the murmur as a whole, are the indifference

[glacial bough]

He will ruin lives and play with reality as a joke and doesn't bother about who or what is ruined along the way

[hushed gale]

Who did y'all choose to finish ballas?

[median osprey]

Wally is just a void entity

part of the indifference, but is clearly one of the fancier/smarter ones

I DONT believe theres only wally as the only intelligent void entities

[strange plinth]

i wouldn't say indifference = void
"the indifference" in all of its mentions refer to the man in the wall

[glacial bough]

No, Wally is diectly the Indifference

It's specifically a name for him

[lime meadow]

Oooooooooh shit. Okay. That’s throwing me for a loop, cuz I figured The Murmur was just something serving Wally, and they collectively were The Indifference. Or it’s like a “Gods of the Warp”-WH40K kinda thing. But I’m kinda wondering about their relation now.

[hushed gale]

The man in the wall is indifferent to everything yet he likes to play with us, to strike deals, he likes to play, but doesn't care about anything else neither the consequences

[median osprey]

OG playthrough, I chose Operator
I replayed it recently and did Drifter

I think it makes more sense for Operator to do it

[hushed gale]

For real

[median osprey]

The murmur is also considered "The Indifference"

[hushed gale]

Did operator because it was very much personal

[median osprey]

but isnt Wally

[lime meadow]

I mean, idk. He seems pissed over that fingie

[glacial bough]

It's part of him as his direct creations

[median osprey]

Theres also a place called "The Great Indifference" which is instead a place in the void, rather than an entity

[hushed gale]

Yeah that pisses him off

[median osprey]

i like to think of it kinda like entropy

[glacial bough]

Isn't that just what Loid call the void part of the Labs

[hushed gale]

He just doesn't like the orokin because they used his "abilities" without his consent

[median osprey]

yes, thats the place in teh void

[glacial bough]

Oh, that's not a place in the Void specifically though

[median osprey]

sanctum anatomica is meshed slightly into the void

[hushed gale]

Love that place, it's so beautiful and scary at the same time

Really want to freecam in it

[median osprey]

IMO hes not actually angry that he lost his fingies

but he needs them to push the indifference further

[hushed gale]

Oh nah he's mad

[median osprey]

i swear theres a line somewhere to the tune of "It doesnt like emotion, but being indifferent shields you from its gaze"

[hushed gale]

In the zariman part of the hex quest

He talks very angrily about how the orokin butchered and used his flesh

[lime meadow]

See, the fact it’s called “The Great Indifference” by Loid and features imagery in its landscape that resembles Wally aesthetically makes me think he’s almost like a homogenizing force within an otherwise maybe variable Void.
Which I feel kinda falls in line with the idea he’s a kinda representation of entropy Blitz mentioned. Cuz, felt.

There a Kinemessaging thing with Arthur when he’s having a drunk emotional breakdown that is popping into mind rn

[median osprey]

to be fair, i didn't percieve it as anger

[glacial bough]

Wally is definietly upset about losing his finger

[lime meadow]

Like, conceptual embodiment is inherently a kinda variable thing, it relies on the subjectivity of the flesh-mind hitting the non-substance of Void. Wally doesn’t seem related to the crew of the Zariman or the Void Angels to me tho. Or at least I haven’t seen a connection yet.

[glacial bough]

He's playing it up a lot to manipulate us, but he's def upset

[median osprey]

i dont thiiiink wally uses conceptual embodiment himself, but thats more a side effect of being a void entity (which he clearly knows about) that the person sees themself, but that minorly falls apart with the seeing albrecht and wally (as us) talking to eachother in a tile thats in the sanctum anatomica set (unless like Neci, albrecht's been tainted by the void)

voids weird makes my BRAIN hurt

[plain dagger]

Wally is mad that he lost his favorite pinky

[median osprey]

technically we could give his real fingie back (if we knew the consequences werent bad)

and we could still void jump, cause we use replicas of it for our stuff

we should not give him his fingies back

for one, i dont think we know where they are exactly

and for two, that seems like a bad idea

[glacial bough]

It explicitly is

[humble sierra]

We don't know where they are— but they might be on Tau, assuming the finale of this arc is there too

[lean garden]

wuh? thats not right

[glacial bough]

Him getting his finger back means he has free rain to play though all of reality

[lean garden]

The Indifference and The Man In the Wall are the same entity

[lime meadow]

Or they’re both Wally.
I’ve been thinking a lot about it, and he seems analogous to a Chaos God from Warhammer. Like, the Void is a space unbound by conventional physics where mentality literally shapes the space around you. I think it lacks the baleful agency I feel line I see from the Warp in that setting, but the fact it’s a space where the paradigm of Matter over Mind is inverted means the possibility of Wally effectively acting by “God-Rules” might not be a stretch. The doppelgängers could effectively be comparable to Greater Daemons, the Murmur comparable to the jibbering hordes of lesser daemons of the Powers.

[lean garden]

like this is directly stated in the Pom-2 archives

[lime meadow]

Whatchu think?

[strange plinth]

"'The Man In The Wall' is identical with the entity known to us as 'The Indifference'."

[glacial bough]

They are both Wally, yes

we know he's not bound to appearing in only one form

[lime meadow]

It’s not just the limit of forms though, it’s the simultaneity he does it with. Multiple places at once stuff

[humble sierra]

If you look at the Arms of some of the Murmur enemies, it has the same silver aesthetic as a Void Angel.

[lime meadow]

God rules

[plain dagger]

Wally just needs a hug

[glacial bough]

Yes, we already knew he could do that too

[plain dagger]

The void is a place where wally resides the murmur and void angels are made of the same shit not the same thing though

[lime meadow]

Wally needs LSD and a lay

[plain dagger]

Void angels are people gone mad
The murmur is the physical manifestation of wally and his mini himselfs

[lime meadow]

Yep, tracks. He’s a Chaos God.

5th Power Confirmed

[plain dagger]

They come from the same place. Same material but never the same thing

[strange plinth]

angels are the holdfasts that have given in to the reliquary drive/wally's song
minor correction
still connected to wally

[plain dagger]

Well

They technically aren't following him though

It's only a given that they were INFLUENCED by him not controlled or made like the murmur

They also lie dormant until external stimuli wake them

[strange plinth]

teshin's duviri dialogue also pins wally as the "master" of the void angels

[plain dagger]

Ehh.. it's still different

[humble sierra]

I think the Gargoyle Cry operation had them working alongside the Murmur

But that was before my time

[plain dagger]

Because by master he could be referring to the void and us plugging the hole between void and reality

You know

Void flood void cascade

Void Armageddon

Stuff like that

[humble sierra]

Bit of a stretch, as poetic as Teshin is, I don't think he'd refer to the entirety of the Void itself like it was a person

[plain dagger]

It kinda is-nt

Is and it isn't it's a thing not an it but at the same time