lore-discussion

[swift steppe]

im going to look at it right now

[sage moat]

so the IDEA is praghasa ate a hole in the sun and now theres a void hole there that leads to tau.

[lean garden]

Because the last time we got close to the sun a portal to tau was attempted

[swift steppe]

but didnt we... uhm... save the sun?

im missing something here i think

[sage moat]

i dont believe it. i DO think the hole is from praghasa, some people say its a sunspot and like dawg that is not a sunspot. it wouldn't be featured so prominently if it was just a sunspot

[proper barn]

yeah i can see that.

[sage moat]

we did but it still got to chow down a little bit, hence the big void hole being opened that the zariman ended up coming through

[lean garden]

But thats a lil wack because pragahasa ate the sun like how starkiller base ate the sun, the act of eating the sun dont make a void hole

[proper barn]

yes but Pergasha still nibbled on it a little.

[swift steppe]

what is a sunspot

[swift steppe]

oh okay i see

[sage moat]

its a real thing irl where theres a spot on the sun

idk the physics behind it sometimes there's just a dark spot on the sun

[proper barn]

idk if that's what happeend.

[lean garden]

Its very literal

[proper barn]

cuz you go into the zariman in a early part of the quest.

[lean garden]

A spot on the sun, sunspot

[swift steppe]

okay i see

thanks for explaining guys i was really lost

[woven coyote]

Zariman isn't really close to the sun tho....

[proper barn]

i would argue with this part at the end.

just cuz you literally go to the zariman with a ship before this.

[sage moat]

i mean i assumed the zariman was plugging the hole that praghasa ripped, is that not true?

[proper barn]

no?

[woven coyote]

Like you dont see a massive sun skybox on the zariman

[proper barn]

why could we go to it before then?

[sage moat]

its been a while since i played through the story, that's my bad

[woven coyote]

Like in the quest even

[swift steppe]

wait i got another question

[sage moat]

completely my bad ignore me

where did the zariman voidhole come from?

[swift steppe]

from grendels belly mouth

[sage moat]

shoot but apparently im stupid so take my answers with a grain of salt

[swift steppe]

LMAO sorry i had to

[swift steppe]

its okay dont worry my next question is about the leverian anyways

im gonna ask it before i forget it tho

[woven coyote]

Coolaid man'd it

[swift steppe]

why tf is drusus not making new leverians on frames

[woven coyote]

He is too poor

[swift steppe]

why is there only 11 leverians when theres like 60frames?

somethings wrong here

[swift steppe]

thats not true we have nightwave thingy to give him money

[woven coyote]

Like literally

[swift steppe]

wait so youre telling me US giving this dude money doesnt do shi??

wtf man i kept giving him 1mil

[woven coyote]

It is, the whole thing surrounding dante explains how he got so poor he had to take a loan from parvos

[sage moat]

so the real answer is because many frames have lore outside of the leverian and DE isn't going to pay for a writer to write flash fiction about a frame that already has lore

like ash? we didn't know anything about ash. ash needed some lore

[swift steppe]

okay so

[sage moat]

jade? we already have a short story AND a quest about jade

[swift steppe]

uhm... what about.... garuda.................................

[sage moat]

oh so this is easy

garuda had lore, but it got removed because i stole it.

[swift steppe]

is this fr or are you joking

[sage moat]

there was actually a whole TNW style quest surrounding garuda but i took it. that's why warframe lore is so confusing because all your questions were answered in a quest and i took it i have it in a folder in a storage unit in omaha

[sage moat]

/j sadly we just have no idea what's going on with grood

[swift steppe]

LMAOOO

[swift steppe]

oh okay i wonder why they just gave up on her

[sage moat]

gotta keep the content train moving i guess

[woven coyote]

Even khora has more lore

[sage moat]

im hoping we get a cool leverian update one day

[swift steppe]

what is khoras lore even

shes just freaky

[sage moat]

she has lore i think its in some codex entry somewhere

i vaguely remember it. some corpus scientist found venari or smth

[swift steppe]

also why some frames have special treatment (quests for them) but some dont like whats going on with that

[swift steppe]

oh yeah that

[vagrant sun]

Is it ever stated just how much he owes parvos?

[sage moat]

so a lot a lot a lot frames have stories, whether or not they get a quest depends on if that story is going to happen or has already happened

[swift steppe]

oh

so titania alr happened

[sage moat]

like voruna's story is largely about how she came to be, and then later that she was a guarddog on lua. nothing really ties into the modern story.
Dante? Dante's story is pretty quick

[woven coyote]

Nope, otherwise i bet some smartypants would go to the donation box, donate it, and complain to DE

[sage moat]

oh with old frames its just cause they're old

more impressive to add a new quest and frame on update 7 or whatever then to just add a new frame with a new node

[swift steppe]

oh

imma listen to dante lerverian

[sage moat]

wow i looked it up i just got shocked by just how old vauban is

[swift steppe]

how old is he

[sage moat]

dude predates nova

update 7.11

[swift steppe]

what year

[vagrant sun]

2013

[woven coyote]

Because vauban launched with kestrel i used to say vauban had a throwable moustache

[swift steppe]

dude drusus is dumb asl

like why are you giving everything to parvos granum bro you know how bad this man is

[sage moat]

i think drusus is running a crypto scam behind closed doors or something because people are donating millions to this man and he still needs to take out a loan from the Sharkest Loaner in the world to keep his vr edutainment game running

[swift steppe]

wait drusus is saying entrati was hearing voices does that mean they thought he was schizophrenic or something

[swift steppe]

LMAOOOO

ok but wtf happened to dante then

[sage moat]

in 2029 his prime will drop and we'll find out

(i don't know dante's lore)

[swift steppe]

drusus is just talking about how he lost dante

hes talking about entrati, loid, parvos but not saying shi about where and why dante is gone

pmo

[tall echo]

He's not all-knowing

[swift steppe]

sadge

[wanton mauve]

Dear god tell me thats not poor Thursby on the right??

oh dear god it is

[sage moat]

talk to him again!

he doesn't go by thursby anymore :3

[wanton mauve]

How does this even work anyways? Can they get their bodies back somehow?

Did they have human heads at one point?

[sage moat]

turn back now

[swift steppe]

girl what

[sage moat]

there be spoilers ahead. get to rank 5 in fortuna

[swift steppe]

no they dont

why would they have human heads they are CLEARLY robots bro

[tall echo]

Bruh

[swift steppe]

anyways does operator eat cubic food

[wanton mauve]

I mean Thursby had human arms and legs, and I think torso

[tall echo]

Not if they can avoid it

[swift steppe]

okay

i want to try cubic food

[sage moat]

so the idea here is a debt cycle

[tall echo]

The solaris were once human, augmented to be better at working away their debt

[swift steppe]

dude

nevermind

[tall echo]

Oh please, that's not a spoiler

[wanton mauve]

ok, thanks. So they can't get unaugmented?

[swift steppe]

no

theyre all cooked

[sage moat]

someone in their family took a loan. they need to pay it off. how? by working. to get a job you need cybernetic augments though, so you take out a loan to get those augments. now you're in more debt. you work to pay it off.
you never pay it off.
Your children enter further debt.
They need to work to pay it off
They take out a loan to get augments to pay it off

[tall echo]

Doesn't seem like it

[wanton mauve]

damn, pretty screwed up

[tall echo]

Capitalism

[wanton mauve]

-Wahoo's in the distance-

[swift steppe]

thats parvos graum wait not i think thats nef anyo

idk idc theyre all disgusting

[tall echo]

Honestly at the current rate it seems like the corpus is giving nintendo ideas

[swift steppe]

LMAO

[sage moat]

i like that warframe's 3 big bad factions are
"the military industrial complex brainwashes and dehumanizes people"
"capitalism is inherently exploitative and will never be able to exist ethically"
and
"what if you were a worm wouldn't that be messed up"

[tall echo]

That's.
That's not. What the infestation is.

[sage moat]

im being goofy i know

well actually i dont know. whats the big thesis of the infestation. it made sense to me when they were an orokin bioweapon but now that we have confirmation they predate the orokin...
???

[tall echo]

Just a hivemind

I think it stopped being an orokin creation a WHILE ago

[sage moat]

yeah but like what's the point

[tall echo]

It's old, exists across time

[sage moat]

the grineer and corpus both have very obvious messages about society and the infestation is just messed up. there doesn't have to be a point its just weird there doesn't seem to be one

[tall echo]

Might be an equivalent to the void

[tall echo]

Well it doesn't have a point

[sage moat]

i guess you could say the infestation has something to say about humanity exploiting natural things for our own benefit with no care for the consequences? but that feels weird when the infestation does in fact kill people en masse

[tall echo]

Sometimes things just exist

[sage moat]

mr hippo moment

"War bad"
"Capitalism bad"
"Worms bad"

[tall echo]

Individuality is important? Idk

The one guy from years ago who thinks the infestation is good would disagree

[sage moat]

the infestation is good wdym. it literally nurtures our wounds and helps us in combat it has no ill will

personally i think the emissary did nothing wrong/j

[tall echo]

No specifically the hostile one

[sage moat]

(this post brought to you by the Lizzie appreciation club)

[tall echo]

Dude argued that the world would be better if everyone was the same and actually meant it

[sage moat]

literally the plot of evangelion btw

[tall echo]

I suppose I have been spared from having to watch it now

Not that I intended to anyways

[strange spindle]

What is the lore for Loid dressing like that because there are so many dangly bits in his face accessories and his mini boob window I have to draw him with reference on another monitor

[tall echo]

He just dresses like that

[proper barn]

Oh buddy.

[proper barn]

Yes. Many don't. The head thing is spoilers.

[proper barn]

Yes that was the food on the Zariman.

[tall echo]

[proper barn]

The Orokin weaponized the Infestation. Like diemos looks like it is cuz of a Infested bio bomb they made. It kept the sentients away.

[proper barn]

Cuz he wants to. Seemingly it was the style at the time for high society.

Like Yonta also looks like this and so do the family.

Even Calvero like has a Lotta gold bits on him. @strange spindle

[proper barn]

Augments get them in more debt. It is possible to buy all your parts debt free and untraceable (even by the corpus) but you would need a LOT of money.

[proper barn]

Okay Helminth and greater infestation not the same but I get the meme.

[tall echo]

You are so late

[proper barn]

Yeah

I've been snuggling with my very old cat.

[wanton mauve]

how many levels of tessera are there? O_O

done 20 waves so far..

[proper barn]

what?

[stiff fable]

endless missions are endless

[proper barn]

yeah

[wanton mauve]

"waves", I did 21 and it started getting tough so I popped out

[proper barn]

yeah

sounds correct. make sure to leave through the like "do you wanna extract" thing.

[wanton mauve]

ty, 300 endo ftw

How do I open these?

[stiff fable]

do relic missions

on the star chart it's the torch looking symbol on the top right

[wanton mauve]

oh I see, thanks!

[strange spindle]

Was the thing that Cavalero said during the story quest about finding armament meant for you a reference to that junji ito manga

[proper barn]

Sure why not

[vale sail]

So no?

[graceful swan]

Tenno can’t bullet jump themselves they control the frame that does all that

[vale sail]

Alright

[restive river]

No
The tenno are not what fuel the frames, they just pilot them, take away their pain

The frames existed before the Orokin had the tenno pilot them

[vale sail]

But how come Kaleen was burned?

[restive river]

What?

The tenno have their own abilities, void beams, all that

Their abilities aren’t the same as the Warframes
The Tenno’s abilities are from Wally and later learned from Margulis’ focus schools
The Warframe’s abilities are, for the most part, designed (there are some exceptions like half of Xaku’s abilities for example)

[vale sail]

Hm so tenno cant really do much on their own

[restive river]

What

Where did you get that???

[vale sail]

I use crude language so that was a oversimplification

[restive river]

The tenno, after the disaster have void beams and other abilities
Margulis sealed away their trauma and abilities with the second dream
After the war within, our tenno and presumably others on their own paths have a better understanding of their abilities

Which include void beams, being able to turn their bodies into void energy and back into physical matter (void mode) as well as everything they learned from the focus schools
And of course transference, an innate ability to the tenno
They can do a lot on their own, not as much as they can with a frame but a lot
The frames are physically stronger, designed for combat unlike the tenno who are just children with superpowers
Even the Drifter, who has combat experience is still just a fairly normal human aside from their abilities

[vale sail]

Alright

[plush phoenix]

i don't think this person has done second dream yet

[chrome frost]

.....actually heres a stupid question but....what are the chances that some frame was created from a grineer? Afterall from what I know the orokin were kinda desperate and grineer were basically an infinite source of Raw material for warframes

[restive river]

Well they’re in the lore channel so spoilers should be expected :p

Also I think they have since they’ve been claiming the tenno can power the warframes like how the heart does
Which
While potentially possible has yet to be seen

[chrome frost]

I think that in the second dream we got to see that

[restive river]

Maybe, it seems they mostly took their best and strongest
So
Mostly Dax

[restive river]

No?

If you’re thinking of the frame moving by itself that’s not what they mean at all

[chrome frost]

We touched our frame and it stood up

[restive river]

Yes
That’s called transference

That’s not us powering our frame like the heart does

[chrome frost]

https://tenor.com/view/tf2-heavy-alright-gif-9250624435325092975

[restive river]

:p

In the heart of deimos the heart malfunctions
Transference is still active but the frame suffers
So transference and what powers the frame are two different things

Like it’s literally the difference between a pilot and a battery

The tenno are the pilot
The heart is the battery
Without the battery the frame cannot do most of what it normally does but can still be piloted, though greatly limited

[chrome frost]

Ight I'm back after getting my morning coffee

[chrome frost]

Mother said something about us dying if the heart stops during the quest, right?

[restive river]

No??

[chrome frost]

Ok then I need to revisit it

[restive river]

The tenno are not powered by the heart
The frames are

[chrome frost]

Yes but I wasn't referring to that

[restive river]

The tenno are not void tech, they are humans saturated with the piece of wally given to us via the deal
It’s how he chose to “save” us

[chrome frost]

I was talking about what Mother said

I don't fully remember due to doing the quest a long long time ago

[restive river]

Here

https://www.orokinarchives.com/heart-of-deimos/

Idk what quote you’re talking about so find it

[graceful swan]

When Mother said the heart is what makes you special she was referring to the frame not us

[restive river]

^

[tall echo]

I'm special even without the heart
Laughs in autism

[graceful swan]

Special needs
Rell Probably

[brittle siren]

I was wondering, when the heart was failing, does literally every frame just unable to work properly ? If that so, imagine many Tenno doing their own thing and suddenly falling down and get mauled by the Grineer/Corpus

Jade also unable to tranfer her energy properly (?)

[graceful swan]

She still would the heart just wouldn’t be able to use as much as the heart was breaking down not completely broken beyond repair

[stiff fable]

Yes actually

But not just the heart, the solar rails, every Orokin Tower that isn't in the void, orbiters, every piece of Orokin tech that an independent colony relies on

[fresh sail]

Tbh after certain lore revelations I never understood that

I thought the tenno got their powers directly from a deal w/ wally

Why would they need the macguffin in entrati's basement to keep functioning

They didn't shake hands w/ the heart

[stiff fable]

They do but they still need power to do it

[fresh sail]

I guess I just feel like wally wouldn't let his "investment" falter til he got what he sought outta the deal

[stiff fable]

actually wait hang on two different things

The Tenno's powers are fine

But the Warframes are void powered

[fresh sail]

But the warframes aren't

[stiff fable]

"powering Warframes" is not a Tenno power

[fresh sail]

And we're powerful, but a helluva lot more squishy w/o our wall of infested flesh shielding our real bodies, right?

[stiff fable]

Theoretically yes

[fresh sail]

As the Queens demonstrated oh so wonderfully in TWW

[stiff fable]

As far as we're aware no Tenno has ever died except of natural causes

Ballas attributes this to supernatural forces, hence the "throw the Tenno back into the void" bit of New War

[fresh sail]

Fair
But also
Ballas is an idiot

[stiff fable]

Absolutely

[fresh sail]

I mean on the other hand
He still kinda won
For a little bit anyway

[stiff fable]

If he'd gotten those Grineer "no transference sticks", filled a room with knockout gas and then launched the room into the sun he could kill the Tenno permanently

[misty helm]

He probably thought we would be there a lot longer, enough for him to jump to Tau before we came back

[stiff fable]

He didn't think escape was possible in the first place

Because the Drifter's existence is so paradoxical it's genuinely unique

[misty helm]

I don't think he was that dumb. I mean, he clearly knew some stuff about our nature.

[stiff fable]

No no, that isn't dumb, what happened with Drifter has no precedent

There's no way to predict it

[misty helm]

Knowing his antics, he probably had some sort of 'contigency plan' on it, that got screwed by his own hubris (just like always)

[stiff fable]

Like, everyone who knew about Drifter assumed it was a surviving Tenno

Not "an alternate version of the Tenno who was trapped on the Zariman and escaped due to two different paradoxes happening at once"

There's no way to predict that one

[misty helm]

Btw, speaking about the Drifter, could somebody clear my doubts on this...? ;
The Drifter 'existing' on the origin system by the time of TNW is by having escaped Duviri?

[stiff fable]

Yes

Duviri Paradox starts with space mom's hand dropping on top of the Drifter

[misty helm]

Does that mean, then, that they have their whole 'loop' void powers that they got from Thrax's dilema?

[stiff fable]

After Ballas chops it off and stabs the Operator

The Drifter's one and only void power would be resetting time loops, yes

(But they can't create time loops)

[misty helm]

Oh, so it's that, then. Only 'alter' already existing time-loops

[graceful swan]

Manipulating the existing loop

[misty helm]

It's not like they could have just looped the entire post-NW scenario?

[stiff fable]

Correct

[misty helm]

Yeah, I was wondering why they hadn't made that or even if they maybe had

[fresh sail]

I mean
They literally create one in 1999

So yes
I'd say they do

[graceful swan]

Incorrect

The loop already existed

[fresh sail]

Afaik there was no actual time loop in 1999 b4 drifter arrived
They were fated to die, and then we interfered

[graceful swan]

There was

[fresh sail]

Then..... how do you explain the new protoframes then?

[graceful swan]

Albrecht infected more than 6 people

[fresh sail]

Also it doesn't really make sense 4 the drifter's powers to function outside of duviri anyway

[fresh sail]

I mean they literally never show up until we arrive
So if anything, they started to exist when our arrival altered things

[graceful swan]

You actually see the loop before we even show up

[misty helm]

I think it may be they work inside a time-paradox? Entrati going back in time to 1999 to 'make' the protoframes is as factual to the timeline as the rise and fall of the Orokin Empire and the scenarios that transpired after. It's all kinda like a loop by itself.

[fresh sail]

I don't see how?

[graceful swan]

The start of the quest the loop loops

When the explosion happens

That was before we were even there

[fresh sail]

That's not a cutscene of time reversing in universe
That's more of an "in media res" type of thing

[graceful swan]

You literally hear the loop after it

[fresh sail]

Like "2 weeks earlier....." type deal

If what you say is true, then literally every time they start later and then "reverse time" to show how things ended up that way in fiction would be a time loop

I don't know, lemme ask this, did DE confirm it was a time loop b4?
Bc if not, then any sound effects implying time is reversing could theoretically just be stylistic choices

If they confirmed it then I'll shut up lol
Can't exactly argue with the peepo who make the game now can I

[graceful swan]

Inbox message:
What happened?

Drifter,

I can make no sense at all of these readings. Your site of temporal injection has somehow shifted. Your loop now encompasses the entire year of 1999.

Albrecht's interference is to blame, no doubt. What does he feel you need more time to achieve? He surely must have given guidance, however cryptic!

I can offer one service, at least. I discovered a clandestine blueprint among Albrecht's personal effects, for a warframe so secret it was never named. It is yours.

—Loid

[fresh sail]

Hmm
I wonder then what made Duviri a time loop to begin with then

[graceful swan]

Albrecht

Drifter can’t create loops

[fresh sail]

I mean something must have started it
Temporal anomalies don't start from nothing

[graceful swan]

Albrecht

[fresh sail]

No? Albrecht didn't create Duviri
He had nothing to do with the Drifter's actual origin story

[graceful swan]

No I’m saying Albrecht created the 1999 loop

[fresh sail]

This part I remember
The game literally said Drifter created Duviri with void powers

[graceful swan]

Duviris was made by the Void to keep Drifter in

[fresh sail]

Yes but that's not what I said just now, sorry must not have been clear

[lean garden]

with conceptual embodiment

aint even his own void powers

just a volatile reaction of void and strong emotions

[graceful swan]

Drifter has never been able to make a loop

[lean garden]

you see similar things happening in the voruna leverian, where strange twisted creatures appear when tuvul tries to proceed with the continuity ritual

[fresh sail]

I'm saying Dominus Thrax is technically kinda sorta the Drifter, and Duviri became a time loop at some point
Someone must have made it that way
So ergo, intentionally or not, seems likely Drifter is responsible for its nature

[graceful swan]

The Void

[fresh sail]

Okay, but Duviri was literally dreamed into existence by them
The Void was the power source, but it wasn't the will

[graceful swan]

Everything Duviri is was made by the Void

[fresh sail]

Far as I can tell, the Void has no intelligence
It must be directed by a mind, be it a tenno or the man in the wall

Kinda like the Upside Down from Stranger Things I guess

[graceful swan]

Conceptual Embodiment is a thing that happens in the Void

[lean garden]

I wouldn't necessarily link that to some amazing attribute of the Drifter, conceptual embodiment creating things aint exclusive to Drifter, just see Kullervo's Hold

which is an addition to duviri created by Kullervo's own emotions reacting with the Void

[graceful swan]

With strong enough emotion anyone can use CE

[fresh sail]

Yes but Kullervo didn't create Duviri specifically
What y'all say would be accurate if the void just made specific things happen

But most occurences in Wf insofar the void is concerned has been due to outside influences

[graceful swan]

Kullervo made his hold

[lean garden]

Not duviri yes, but a specific locale in duviri was caused by him the same way duviri was caused by drifter

[fresh sail]

Be it Harrow, Kullervo, Albrecht, the drifter etc.

I mean the void wouldn't even be a threat most likely if Albrecht hadn't made Wally curious about him
That and yoinking his fingies

[lean garden]

So as for Duviri's loop being a result of Drifter, I think its more closer to the "I AM DUVIRI" rant that Drifter had

which segues into how Drifter might not actually have much if any control over the 1999 loop

[fresh sail]

I'd prolly be mad too if some rando showed up in my house, jacked half of my hand, explained nothing then left

[lean garden]

because 1999 aint his

[fresh sail]

I guess so
But the idea that Albrecht is some almighty dude who has his controlling fingers in every pie ever isn't exactly the truth either, is it?
Not saying Drifter is an OP time god

But ftmp it seems to me that Albrecht is more bumbling and desperate than some kino mastermind

[lean garden]

almighty? nah, but a devious consistent meddler? absolutely

[lean garden]

could be both really, bumbling about but smart enough to yoink it back to a central purpose

[fresh sail]

Ever since the day Wally became interested in him, he's been doing more running than scheming

[graceful swan]

Potent weaponry, exquisite anatomy, those are trivial. But temporal manipulation? Even the Entrati-

The Entrati have violated time, and I have violated them.

[misty helm]

I mean, you also took on a creepy-eyed mirroed image of himself and then started following him when he tried to flee back to where he came.

[fresh sail]

The lore states once upon a time he wass just like any other Orokin lord
Superior, arrogant, determined to prove his worth and pass it on

After his foray into the void, he decided to outright abandon any chance of kuva reincarnation
All his genius began to be directed towards escape

[graceful swan]

Not straight away he didn’t

[lean garden]

Im not sure if I can agree, because his own diary has him resolve to throw hands

Like there comes a point in his notes he's like "I can't keep throwing other bodies at it, I'mma have to square up"

[graceful swan]

we are haunted by nothing. But not for me. For with each passing day, there grew within a tumorous idea. It was minute in those early days: The pale reaching digits severed on the floor... studied with reverence, with greed. And it swelled larger in the latter days:

[lean garden]

Next thing we know from WITW-1999, he's squaring up with wally in 1999

[fresh sail]

I guess
Kinda hard to believe when 1999 has him say "The eldritch abomination BBEG's weakness is the power of love"

[lean garden]

I mean, did we not already learn that in previous quests?

like that was a key takeaway from WITW

[stiff fable]

Late but: Duviri was a timeloop from the start, because of the way that the Duviri Tales story is written.

[graceful swan]

We gave Wally emotional damage by doing to Wally what Albrecht did to Loid

[fresh sail]

Every man needs his bro to give him a tender hand on the cheek every now and then~

"I'm there 4 u, brother"

[stiff fable]

Him and Loid are just roommates.

Good friends.

Nothing more

Absoluuuuutely nothing more.

[graceful swan]

Roommates with extra steps

[lean garden]

Two bros chilling in a hot tub

[graceful swan]

My Albrecht totally doesn’t mean they love each other

I still wanna know what happened to Albrechts wife

I hope Albrecht didn’t throw her into the Void

[fresh sail]

Honestly Orokin culture is a good fit for a gay man lore wise

Not a good fit as in its a good outcome, but Orokin society was very "this is your obligation to father a son" way in that gay men would likely hafta have public "wives"

[analog glade]

In all honesty their marriages are probably more about standing and affiliations more then it was about love. So you probably had more relationships like Albrect and Loid within the Orokin empire then marriages of love.

[fresh sail]

I mean I feel like a powerful enough Orokin lord could also prolly just go "screw the rules"
.....maybe
They had Jade Light execution chambers and sham trials

Lol Wf discord has censored words
I can see it becoming a problem under certain circumstances, but still
Basic bish curse words being disallowed feels so..... juvenile

Like I'm sitting in a grade school classroom
Oh well

I can see why tho, even if its not how I'd handle the situation
Internet peepo can be remarkably immature and difficult to wrangle at times
So the temptation to just pre-emptively cauterize any potential hydra heads must be rather tempting

[proper barn]

Eh idk of that's true. Cuz Ballas was gonna choose a woman as his yuvan. Now I think he would have made her look like him but anyway.

[misty helm]

More than a 'woman', a child.

Also, I find very strange how, in the likely scenario that he would have eventually turned Yareli's form into his own, they need something like continuity to extend their existence.

[graceful swan]

Wouldn’t that be less than a woman rather than more than a Woman

[restive river]

I still don’t get why people call Yareli a child

[misty helm]

Like, they have the knowhow on what basically would be remaking a person, but they somehow can't extend their biological lifespan and instead have to perform the ritual

[restive river]

Like oh no she has. Whimsy? So she’s a child now???
Nothing suggests it, it comes out of nowhere

[restive river]

They literally extend their biological lifespan lol

[graceful swan]

Didn’t they just pick any youthful person?

[restive river]

I mean they really could pick anyone

[misty helm]

Then what's the point of continuity if not to keep existing, but on a different body?

[restive river]

They technology can only take them so far
And swapping bodies was “fun” for them

[misty helm]

If they already have the mediums to extend their biological existence, the whole body-swap-to-keep-existing doesn't make much sense

[restive river]

It does when that tech only goes so far.

[graceful swan]

I mean to be fair the reason people say child specifically is probably because 99% of examples of Continuity in lore is attempting it on a child

[restive river]

Okay but people were saying that BEFORE her prime too :p

[misty helm]

The second explanation would make a lot more sense than the notion of continuity as the Orokin medium to immortality the game lore winks at

[restive river]

They say it cause she has whimsy

[restive river]

I mean they both can make sense :p

[misty helm]

For me it really doesn't

[restive river]

How?

They weren’t gods there was a limit to their technology, eventually their bodies would decay
Continuity gave them a work around and that kinda just became a fun thing for them too

[misty helm]

The could engineer infested flesh to grow gold bits in symmetrical and specific designs, change their skin color to a completely unnatural one, even their eyes where clearly something else than what a human one should look like; YET, somehow they can only extend their lifespan to a limit with said technology? Doesn't make sense.

[graceful swan]

It does though

[misty helm]

But how

[graceful swan]

Not everything lasts forever

[restive river]

They never made anything immortal :p

[graceful swan]

You can’t invent actual immortality

[restive river]

Like they had very good tech but aging was still an inevitability

They got close but not close enough

[misty helm]

If you already have that level of mastering of the genetic and biological processes of life, HOW is that you can only limit said processes-lifespan so far?

[graceful swan]

Because everything has it’s limit

[restive river]

The limit is hard coded if you will
There’s a wall they couldn’t even surpass

[graceful swan]

They made human prime
Couldn’t invent Godhood

[restive river]

Though they did try

[misty helm]

I mean, I know it's a game at the end of the day, but even our current understanding of genetics promises what could basically be eternal youth

I really fail to see how the Orokin would be faced with such a simplistic limit on it

[graceful swan]

The Orokin did the best with what they had

Human technology has limits

Even the Orokin knew the Sun would still kill them one day

[misty helm]

I mean, I get it if we think about it as something more mystical or mysterious as the void, or some other explanation that doesn't really dwells on a biological sense but something more

[misty helm]

There's only so much you can do with a literal star, unless you're the Necrontyr

[restive river]

I can also see them stopping further development because continuity was discovered tbh

[graceful swan]

They probably enjoyed Continuity

[analog glade]

Why be in one body forever, when you can be in many.

[restive river]

I mean they didn’t even do much with the sun

[graceful swan]

Until Ballas

[restive river]

No dyson sphere
Which
Would be impossible to make btw

[restive river]

Yup

[misty helm]

That simple explanation would make a lot more sense to me. As human perversion on the pursuit of hedonistic practices can lead to the craziest stuff

[restive river]

They did do wonders for human aging
Darvo is like 150 iirc and “young”
Teshin was an unknown age and just sat around for another thousand or so years

[misty helm]

I don't they had the technology level as a civilization, despite how advanced they were in comparisson to our actual IRL standard, to perform much tweaking with a star

[misty helm]

Yeah, I mean, as far as we know Warframes are virtually ungaging

[fresh sail]

I mean tbf that's not really a societally accepted gender change and more of Ballas being rather creepy
Which, everything we've seen of him, totally fits

[restive river]

I mean what would they have even done

[graceful swan]

Took falling from the sky for him to grow a beard

[proper barn]

I disagree.

[restive river]

Gender isn’t real in Warframe :p

[fresh sail]

His vibes w/ Margulis/Lotus is pretty controlling at best, and downright rapey at worst

[misty helm]

I think I saw a post once, of some big brained user, that pointed how the terraforming of Venus would have involved 'tweaking' our sun.

[restive river]

Helps they’re void powered

[fresh sail]

Like the whole concept of Yuvan is abusive, its consent-ignoring bodysnatching and ideal fleshsuit eugenics cultivation
So its makes perfect sense that Orokin would find it not so weird for a wholly grown man to shift into a child of the opposite gender

[misty helm]

If the case and our RLW logic applies to this to some point, it could have actually happened with the Orokin

[proper barn]

Yes.

But that point is different than what we said.

[restive river]

It’s also just murder

[fresh sail]

Still that doesn't indicate that Orokin society was progressive and not abusive

[restive river]

I mean it was progressive and abusive

[proper barn]

We could also count that like Orokin just loved breaking their own rules.

[restive river]

Dagath was literally in a polycule

[graceful swan]

Progressively abusive

[stray gale]

it was 'progressive' in a 'the ones in charge can do whatever they want' sort of way

[restive river]

And the only “taboo” part about it was she was a dax

[misty helm]

We don't really see much of their cities, but I really doubt they were all about opression 24/7

[stray gale]

which is quite common, really

[proper barn]

That was against the rules but the Orokin liked doing that lmao.

[fresh sail]

A secret polycule
That they broke off when it was discovered and it would ruin their reputation

[restive river]

Nah they were very oppressive

[proper barn]

That's not what happened.

[stray gale]

like, you get a lot of historical stories and poems about gay people in historical china

[restive river]

Secret because she was a dax, not because it was a polycule.

[stray gale]

but these people were effectively always nobility

[fresh sail]

They literally sheared her face off when it was to become public knowledge

[proper barn]

She died cuz of their possessiveness.

[proper barn]

That's not what happened.

[misty helm]

There's only so much you can do with that, unless they were basically dwelling on literal mind-controlling devices or something akin to it

[restive river]

Like you completely missed what happened in her story

[proper barn]

Like it's a story about how the Orokin are evil

But not for the reasons you said.

[fresh sail]

I feel like some people in here need to read more history books
Many societies had "progressive" values and relationships, but they were explicitly in the shadows of said societies

[restive river]

Funny how Ballas would literally do that later lmao

[proper barn]

They go to Ballas PLEADING him to save the Dax.

Not to kill her.

[fresh sail]

If you have to hide the things society does not approve of, then said society is not actually accepting of those things

[restive river]

You’re neglecting the fact that their relationship was secret BECAUSE SHE WAS A DAX, not because it was a polycule.

[misty helm]

Yeah, you're right. Quite likely it happened at some point.

[fresh sail]

And? Classism isn't necessarily wholly separate from various sexuality phobias

[restive river]

At least in some quantity
They def were not kind to their citizens

:|

[graceful swan]

Were they kind to any of the citizens?

[restive river]

Nope

Not even the Dax

[fresh sail]

Irl, many times were homosexual relationships done explicitly w/ those of lower classes, slaves serfs etc.
Bc being seen dallying with a servant would be less shameful, and it would be easy to do away with them not much like if you had an "illicit" relationship w/ a fellow nobility

[restive river]

That’s not in doubt :|

[misty helm]

Yeah, just yasterday I was doing some runs on Zariman and I got the line of Archimedean Yonta about how the Orokin "singled out" some Archimedeans for some reason.

So they were all about control

[restive river]

Dagath’s relationship was taboo because she was a DAX not because it was a polycule
Like
That’s explicitly stated.

[misty helm]

Quite likely they had levels of it

[fresh sail]

I'm saying you can't separate it so conveniently
Real life influences fiction pretty much automatically, and if you read any amount of history books you'd see there's always been an intersectionality between classism and things like homophobia, transphobia, aversion against polyamoury etc.

[proper barn]

Just to prove this part wrong. They accidentally hurt her when they where trying to kill her horse and even thought about letting her use continuity. Like they are terrible possessive people and they throw her away after she's a warframe but they do not kill her cuz they where found out.

[misty helm]

Again, I really doubt they were all opression 24/7, but like it was there. They had to play the whole "generous" persona of 'golden lords'. Kinda like winning the people and all that, but once the facade was off (for any reason) it was all 1984

[fresh sail]

So Ballas continuity into a young girl wasn't accepted bc Orokin society was hyper-progressive and trascended gender bounds, but simply bc the girl in question was but a yuvan
It was but one of countless abuses amongst many, why would any of the Orokin see it w/ a critical eye?

[proper barn]

I get what you are trying to say but your so like wrong about the dagath story and like the lore it makes anything you are trying to say worse.

[misty helm]

I wonder how dualism saw that, if they had some cultural clashes

[fresh sail]

I admit I was wrong about the dagath, but don't try and pretend like that automatically invalidates the other things I've said
It hardly works like that

[lean garden]

but simply bc the girl in question was but a yuvan
But the purpose of a yuvan was for continuity? Im not sure what you mean by the issue was that she was a yuvan

[restive river]

They threw away dualism when they had the vain faith

[graceful swan]

Ok real question do you believe in Dualism or Vain Faith

[proper barn]

I don't think it does. Also we probably agree more than you think I just like using the lore we have.

[restive river]

Nobody is saying that, this has soully been about how you’re wrong about dagath’s story :|

[fresh sail]

If anything, hyperfocusing on the one mistake someone made when the other things they've said are more valid or accurate is the fallacy

[misty helm]

Maybe some people still held dualism as their faith or prehaps not, and whatever the Orokin mandated (or believed) was the rule

[graceful swan]

Actually, is it known why they swapped faith?

[fresh sail]

Not how it started actually
Someone brought up dagath's story to prove that orokin society was both progressive and oppressive

[stray gale]

I mean, simply it would have been accepted because the orokin write the rules

[restive river]

When this is a lore channel about warframe lore and not real world history, yeah we’re gonna focus on your fallacy regarding warframe lore
Nobody is arguing about anything else you’ve said :|

[misty helm]

Maybe they needed to justify their own practices?

[proper barn]

You could say that.

[fresh sail]

For me, the dagath part wasn't important
But other people hyperfocused on it bc it was the easier part to disprove

[stray gale]

they are the ingroup of which the law protects but does not bind, after all

[restive river]

I know how it started I was there :|

[proper barn]

Yeah they break the rules all the time.

Almost like they like breaking their own rules.

[stray gale]

yeah, and you get ruling class people who do that

because flaunting your own breaking of rules and knowing that no one can stop you is a show of power

[restive river]

Because it was a literal example of it?
Because you were wrong and this is a warframe lore channel?

[fresh sail]

You're misremembering the course of events then
People literally said that orokin society was oppressive and progressive
That's literally the primary and initial reason dagath was brought up
As a gotcha that frankly didn't work to accomplish the purpose it was brought up for
Pivoting to "b-but the LORE!!!!" doesn't change that

[misty helm]

Assuming they may had to play some level of keeping-face, maybe they tried to hide it? I mean, in the sense that rulers try to avoid social discontent to keep revolts at low?

[stray gale]

kinda depends on the state of things, realy

but it is generally true that the aristocracy are 'progressive' in that they can do whatever the hell they want and aren't bound by conservative social norms

[misty helm]

Absolutely

[stray gale]

how much they can get away with will depend on the state of how much power they actually hold over their proles

[fresh sail]

In my eye, that's a closer to a faux progressivism
But I suppose that's arguable

For me, its not progressive if its merely something you can get away with
Instead of something you're truly free to do

[stray gale]

they are free to do it because who is going to stop them

[restive river]

Dagath’s story is arguably an example of that though? Like gender is not real in warframe, the Orokin very likely did not care who someone was with so long as they were an Orokin
That’s why Dagath’s story shows in what ways they’re progressive yet oppressive
The issue was she was a dax, not that it was a polycule

[fresh sail]

Or maybe its progressive, but only the elite few benefit from it

[restive river]

The rest of what you had talked about relating to real world history is true, it’s not the problem

[restive river]

To the Drifter, a literal citizen from the orokin era they perceive gender as not being real

[fresh sail]

I mean, then was Entrati bisexual then?
Because if he was gay, but had a wife, then an external stimuli must have forced him to do that

[stray gale]

yeah?

[restive river]

YES

[stray gale]

it's canonical that he was in a romantic relationship with loid but also had a wife that he bore an entire family with

[restive river]

Unknown if that was ever the case

[fresh sail]

shrugs
Not exactly clear if you ask me

[woven coyote]

In vitro would also be a possibility too

[stray gale]

and I don't think there's evidence anywhere that entratri was forced into having a family

[restive river]

That’s theory at best

[woven coyote]

Yup

[stray gale]

this is the same guy that had a whole labyrinth of labs on a moon all to himself

[proper barn]

Maybe? We don't know anything about her.

[stray gale]

and countless rooms just to hide his loot

[fresh sail]

And in my experience, when you're dealing with a fascist and exploitative government, its pretty natural to presume they're likely a certain political way
But hey if that isn't warframe then so be it

[stray gale]

he was a pretty big deal

[restive river]

Like Ballas was chill swapping to the body of a woman and he was one of the seven

[restive river]

The thing is, they’re so far into the future that that’s just now how people think anymore

[fresh sail]

At the same time, he also has very clear misogynist and narcissistic tendencies to his personality

[woven coyote]

The two facts we have about albrechts family are
euleria's mother wasn't in the picture
Albrecht loves loid

[restive river]

There’s no fuss over any kind of relationship like that in Warframe

[proper barn]

Like Albretch talked about His daughter's mom as like a "she has her mother's eyes" and talks about raising her without his wife. She either left or died. @fresh sail

[fresh sail]

One might assume Ballas would be equally manipulative and abusive towards a man, but he is only ever shown being a prick to Margulis
There's no real evidence showing he's equal opportunity, so to speak

[woven coyote]

Entire family being one daughter: euleria/gomaitru/mother

[stray gale]

I mean he barely hides his contempt for parvos in the protea trailer

[stray gale]

and he also went through a whole bunch of circus just to troll umbra specifically

[restive river]

Yeah
He does
But why would a misogynist swap to the body of a woman?
Maybe cause, idk, it doesn’t matter? Gender is a societal construct and it clearly isn’t the same in Warframe’s era as it is in ours
As we literally talk about with Quincy, a person closer to our era

[fresh sail]

Contempt towards a man isn't proof that he's sexist equally
Because there's no personal relationship aspect

[stray gale]

I don't think there is proof his ire towards margulis was sexist in nature, though

[proper barn]

Also I think Ballas would make any yuvan body just look like him after.

[lean garden]

Hm, how would you regard his manipulation of perintol and the seven to get the Sentient project approved?

[fresh sail]

There's literally plenty lol

[stray gale]

he was bitter and narcissistic but he's like that to everyone

[restive river]

There’s no transphobia or homophobia in-universe for any character or relationships

Gender isn’t real

[fresh sail]

Did you miss the way he spoke to her, like pretty much every time in game?

[restive river]

Like Ticker is just
Chilling and nobody cares

[lean garden]

Or his shenanigans with umbra, that was quite a caca move

[restive river]

I mean I wouldn’t personally say Ballas’ terrible attitude was exclusive to women
Cause
It wasn’t

[fresh sail]

The timeline in the modern day origin system makes sense tho
But the Orokin were much closer to irl Earth standards

[restive river]

At a certain point, no they weren’t

[woven coyote]

Fairly sure that's because ballas treats everyone like garbage molded into pawns that should worship him

[fresh sail]

Its the type of abuse, not merely it existing
You can always tell, what with the way a man speaks to a woman, especially one he desires

It'd be different if Ballas were obsessively possessive over his Narmer, but he wasn't
They were disposable trash to him in ways that the woman he wanted to have so desperately was not

[restive river]

He spoke to everyone terribly, man or woman

[proper barn]

Okay Ballas is abusive and its.never actually his fault and he wants everything his way always.

[restive river]

His issues with Margulis were personal not because she was a woman

[proper barn]

But that's not the same as like "Ballas hates women" its "Ballas wants everything his way and it's never his fault".

[stray gale]

ngl I think umbra got it worse than margulis did

[proper barn]

Nah.

[stray gale]

margulis just got jade lighted, umbra was literally kept alive to be tortured into insanity

[proper barn]

We aren't gonna go into that

[stray gale]

so I don't think that alone is proof that he's misogynistic

[proper barn]

Don't do trauma Olympics

[stray gale]

we were already doing that to prove he was misogynistic, though

[restive river]

Easy answer; there’s no winner cause trauma is trauma.

[fresh sail]

Well I don't know what else to tell y'all
If someone can't see what's so clear to me, what can I do?
Not like I can force anyone to do this or that

[stray gale]

like the proof that he was misogynistic was that what he did to margulis was uniquely and specifically bad compared to how he acted towards other

but I don't think so, he's a pretty equal opportunity hater

[lean garden]

funny enough part of Ballas's inspiration for doing umbra dirty was because he felt done dirty... by himself for what he "had" to do to margulis

[fresh sail]

It feels like it should be easier for Warframe players of all things, but then people in general these days aren't as talented as they used to be

[restive river]

Or you’re seeing something that isn’t there, do you have examples of him explicitly treating other women terribly on the same level or similar to Margulis in a way that supersedes how he treated literally everyone else?

[lean garden]

quite the narcissist

[stray gale]

If someone can't see what's so clear to me, what can I do?
idk perhaps entertain the fact that you might be wrong 🥀

"this is such a self evident truth but it's only clear to me and the reason it isn't clear to the rest of you is because of deficiencies on your part" like what do you want us to say

[restive river]

At what point was Ballas’ issue with Margulis the fact she was a woman?

[lean garden]

Ballas (Transference): "Yet you couldn't understand why I'd give my secrets to our enemy. How could I betray my own kind? But you have never had to sacrifice your love for faith. Imagine – to live, forever, with only one memory: seeing the one you love, die."

"But you won't have to imagine. A lovingly cultured Infestation swarms within your blood. Your transformation has begun—"

"—reshaping you into a sacred surrogate of the unholy Tenno… a warframe with but a single burning memory. It is… a miracle!"

"But all miracles require sacrifice."

[woven coyote]

Yknow you are starting to sound like ballas

[fresh sail]

Already did~
I could be wrong, I just don't think so
Rather much like how all of y'all are equally as convinced as to your own correctness

[restive river]

That’s what I’m thinkin too ngl

[stray gale]

also ballas glazed hildryn a whole bunch, so

I doubt he'd do that if he were misogynistic

[proper barn]

Okay wait

[restive river]

Ballas literally making two murder machines in the image of our inspired by Margulis

[stiff fable]

Yeah Ballas just a hater

[proper barn]

This is dumb.

I don't agree with that part specifically.

[restive river]

Like he is a hater
But he also loved Margulis, like that was his whole thing

[fresh sail]

I don't desire anything from you
But you are telling me to consider I'm incorrect whilst wearing your own confidence on your sleeve
Is that not even a little bit unfair to your minds?
I don't think I'm acting particularly uncharitable rn

[stiff fable]

He didn't hate women specifically, he hated everyone and everything he couldn't control

[graceful swan]

Loved her as a pet

[fresh sail]

Not all love is equal
Cersei Lannister "loved" her children..... as extensions of herself, at least

[brittle siren]

He hate everything but himself

[restive river]

What evidence do you have that he treated all women more terribly than all men?
This is me asking and saying I may be wrong if you can give actual evidence.

[stray gale]

"my stalwart, my shieldmaiden, hildryn" just doesn't sound like something a misogynistic man would say like icl

[stiff fable]

he kinda hated himself too

[fresh sail]

I think he hated himself at least a little bit after Natah fused him onto centaur legs~

[lean garden]

Perhaps it would be unfair to try to slide a "perhaps yall just aint talented as before" because you face disagreement

[brittle siren]

Btw is Cetus and Iron Wake the only village that not own by Grineer atm

[proper barn]

This isn't true. I think this is a bad line of argument.

[fresh sail]

I've literally already explained why I think what I think, everybody simply already finds their own anecdotes stronger than mine
There's nothing more I can do

[brittle siren]

That only for appearance, he still have self love the most

[stray gale]

it's not as if we are dealing with ironproof evidence of the contrary, though

ironclad, rather

foolproof

[restive river]

Okay
I’m not asking for what you THINK, I’m asking for actual evidence to support what you’re proposing.

[fresh sail]

None of us are

[fresh sail]

Much of what I proposed WAS "evidence" it just kept getting dismissed
Or in one case, sidestepped with "This is a lore channel nerd, stick to the lore and you wouldn't be dismissed" when I was arguing a whole nother aspect than what was brought up to catch me in a gotcha

[lean garden]

I think the thing that muddies the water here is that Hildryn isnt so much a woman as she is a literal object to him, a utility for his defence yknow? So is this so much a case of him being an equal hater? Or just someone vibing with his personal shield toy yknow?

[stray gale]

all I'm saying is if ballas were supposed to be motivated by misogyny, it would be uncharacteristic of him to single one out specific warframe so positively when that warframe is a woman

[proper barn]

No it's not.

[stray gale]

not totally unthinkable, of course, but it doesn't help

[restive river]

Okay, present is again
When did he explicitly hate specifically women, more than just Margulis, more than men or anyone else.

[stray gale]

like ^

[fresh sail]

Bc people don't ACT that way towards women, especially women they wish to possess, if they don't have those tendencies
His treatment of Margulis alone is evidence enough

[restive river]

Cause Ballas pretty explicitly hated everyone
His issues with Margulis were more complex than just hate, it was similar to why he hated everyone
He couldn’t control them
He couldn’t control the fact she loved the tenno.

[stiff fable]

Taking a half step back, the original idea for the Seven Executors was that they'd each correspond to the seven deadly sins

[restive river]

Okay so you don’t have evidence then

[stiff fable]

Ballas's was pride

[stray gale]

he still speaks of her very positively in a way that is honestly quite rare for him to do

[lean garden]

-# Pride is a damsel in distress

[fresh sail]

That is basic bloody psychology but sure

[restive river]

It’s just “well people don’t act that way towards women”
He acted that was towards everyone, more so to Margulis because he was in a relationship with her.

[stiff fable]

Now DE didn't go that route because they ended up doing other stuff with the story

[stray gale]

and to go with more prime trailers as evidence, the frame he is most negative about is revenant

[stiff fable]

But Ballas's fatal flaw remains his inability to let anything go out of a misplaced sense of pride

[lean garden]

tbf, prime trailers is him glazious maximusing his warframes, you see similar threads of positivity for the others yagetme?

[stray gale]

which, funnily enough, is one of the very few frames in which he had no control over its existence

[stiff fable]

Yep

Also I can't wait for him to go off on Qorvex

[fresh sail]

Literally the first time you act that way towards another person is plenty enough evidence to suggest you have those personality traits
But if you want "more" evidence, then by all means show me literally any one other time he acted the way he did towards her to anyone else, man or woman

[stiff fable]

And Caliban

[fresh sail]

Was Ballas a shit towards all and sundry? Sure
But that doesn't mean he treated everyone equally horribly

[brittle siren]

I think Entrati or Loid will do the voices (if he have the trailer)

[stray gale]

yeah, but when he talks of "one I held back" and "spare only her", it does feel like he's singling her out specifically because of favouritism rather than just generically talking about how cool they are

[restive river]

Literally everyone in the origin system:
the tenno:

[stiff fable]

I mean he treated all non-Orokin pretty extra terribly

[brittle siren]

That also could be from Erra

[stiff fable]

And he barely tolerated his fellow Orokin

[restive river]

Ballas’ hatred and love for Margulis is so mixed because they had a closer relationship than any random individual and Ballas
So I ask again
At what point does he treat other woman the same way he treats her?

[fresh sail]

So yes, I'm a narc that sounds like Ballas bc I'm explaining basic ass shit that everyone in here is acting too obtuse to see?
That's why I said I couldn't change anyone's minds
But yes, I'm the one insulting everyone bc I just couldn't have my way oh god the utter horror

[restive river]

Literally made Gara out of spite

[stiff fable]

Yep

[lean garden]

For me the way I see it is that if erra was successful on his assault on Lua, all the warframes would be rendered useless due to the lack of pilots, so to preserve his bodyguard, thats why he singles her out. like a "I need/want this one, pls dont telefrag pilot"

[stiff fable]

Like, when he realized Ordan Karris was plotting to murder the Orokin, he went ahead and threw the party anyway

[stray gale]

yeah but why would he be nice about her in that case

[brittle siren]

And Vauban out of spite for Corpus, Banshee for Grineer

[stray gale]

like he has no reason to, yknow?

this is a guy who thinks even his own fellow orokin are beneath him

gara was made out of spite for nihil who wanted her glassed

[stiff fable]

Just to make extra sure that Karris realized the pointlessness of his attempt

[restive river]

You literally were insulting everyone though?
You have still failed to present actual evidence, just presenting the idea that he is that because of how he treated Margulis

[lean garden]

I would say the reason here is the direct benefit to him.

[brittle siren]

Would you be nice to the creation you made yourself?

[lean garden]

Also ahh and caca arent blocked by the filter?

[brittle siren]

And this too

[stray gale]

he was an ass to erra even though erra was instrumental in winning the new war with him

[foggy ledge]

Hey lore masters can ya help with a bet I have with a friend of mine
Can a sentient become a void angel?

[fresh sail]

Not the only one
Only one who's guilty enough to point it out tho
But no worries, I'm used to this~

[stray gale]

he's made most of the warframes and he's not nice to many of them

[lean garden]

guh?

[lean garden]

I would say off the top of the head no

[brittle siren]

List on frame that he not nice with please

[restive river]

I’m still waiting on evidence of him treating other women as horribly as Margulis and worse than everyone else
Cause Ballas was absolutely a hater to all

Like beyond your theory this should be really simple to prove

[fresh sail]

shrugs
Bored now, bai bai
Y'all have a swell rest of the day tho :p

[restive river]

Your theory based on his relationship with one woman who, much like everyone else, he could not control

[lean garden]

Hm, fair point, although I would say there might be some measure of difference between a warframe that by typical means is fully under his thumb for his purpose, and a family clown that needs to be delulu'd to listening yknow?

[stiff fable]

No, void angels are Zariman ghosts who drink from the reliquary

[fresh sail]

||I promise I'll throw a lil party in your honour if I get the "Aha, so you are a coward who slinks away bc the lost the argument"||

[stiff fable]

Sentients can't become Zariman ghosts in the first place

[stray gale]

tbh i can only really name hildryn and gauss that he is specifically nice to

[lean garden]

I think wisp? let me check the trailer

[brittle siren]

give absurd headcanon and deem it true
neglected everyone argument
bored then leave

[stray gale]

many of them are like gara (created to spite nihil) and grendel (created to spite people who thought his other frames were "too genteel")

[restive river]

I’m sorry I was trying to give you a chance to support your claim with actual evidence?

[woven coyote]

Oh i'll do it!
Gaslighting didn't work, insults didn't work so now you run away

[restive river]

Seriously lmao

[stray gale]

oh yeah kullervo

[lean garden]

yea nah not wisp

[stray gale]

that's another spite-made frame

[graceful swan]

Was he nice to Protea?

[woven coyote]

Seriously seeing someone act out the ballas arc was funny

[restive river]

fr like what even 😭

[lean garden]

In languid dreams a vision came, of new heaven, new Earth. I breathed life into its custodian. A subtle sprite, to seed life. Yet as I reached for my savage warden, she... slipped from me.
So now... ...I cast her in flesh. Yours.

Let her be real. Incandescent. This fugitive form. This... Wisp.
Thats not particularly nice, but theres some measure of possession and desirability

[stiff fable]

Protea is all about how much he loathes Parvos

[woven coyote]

He really did all the things ballas did

[stray gale]

yeah, that's what I mean, right

[brittle siren]

No I need to know what frame do you think he hated beside Rev since that clearly not his creation directly

[lean garden]

he said her design was exquisite, but the focus was the back and forth with parvos

[fresh sail]

Told you y'all would do it~

[restive river]

They really did

[stray gale]

many of the trailers, he might gas them up in terms of their capabilities but he's not really nice to most of them

[brittle siren]

That because some of them defy him

[stray gale]

yeah that was the argument bru

[brittle siren]

Yarelic Mirage defy him

[restive river]

Oh no I had no way to defend my argument besides what I think so now I’ll berate people

[fresh sail]

Again, have the utmost fun acting morally superior while blaming the other guy for what you're doing as you accuse them of it
I am seriously rooting for u! ❤️

[stray gale]

ballas hates anyone who he can't control

[restive river]

I literally asked for you to change my mind with evidence :|

While you insulted people

[fresh sail]

Not my fault you can only recognize the evidence you find most fitting
I mean, only things that pass your specific approval count as evidence, so what can a person do

[restive river]

Not my fault you didn’t give any actual evidence?

[stray gale]

that is, I don't think one can interpret ballas as being misogynistic because of what he does to margulis when the way he acted towards people like umbra or kullervo was comparably petty and controlling

[restive river]

I asked multiple times and you couldn’t even say anything.

[fresh sail]

Liiiiterally proving my point mate

[brittle siren]

❓

[woven coyote]

You don't have one tho

[restive river]

In-game, when did Ballas treat other women as badly as Margulis and more so than EVERYONE else?
You have yet to give me even that.

[fresh sail]

If you say so
I see more than one Ballas in here

[lean garden]

ooooh I get it!

You have faced our worst. But one I have kept back, to guard against enemies within.
She has sent many weeping on their way. This sky-born bastion of the sagas.

So hear me well, Hunhow. When you despoil the Reservoir, spare only her.

My stalwart. My shieldmaiden. Hildryn.
He's not being nice to her. He kept her back to guard his bum from others within the empire. Its toolius maximus all up in this thing

[fresh sail]

I guess we can all take up his mantle together

[restive river]

Oh no, they called me Ballas so I’ll call them Ballas, that’ll get them!

If you don’t have evidence to your claim please do what you said earlier and go

[fresh sail]

Not being able to recognize when one has faulted, whilst blaming others for perceived faults, hmmmm whatever personality trait is that again?

[stray gale]

yeah, but there would have been a reason he kept her back specifically, right

not just, oh you happen to be around

[lean garden]

yea to guard him

[restive river]

That is
Literally what you did

[stray gale]

and idk if I called someone "my stalwart shieldmaiden", I would presume that she would think I feel at least a little positively toward her

[fresh sail]

Its what you did as well
If you can't see it..... well

[restive river]

You have still failed to supply a single piece of evidence I have requested so that you can change my mind
This shouldn’t be difficult if your argument is ironclad.

[stray gale]

not that I can imagine when I would say something like that but still

[brittle siren]

I mean she do what he said, he pleased

[lean garden]

like if we consider her kit and theme, its bodyguardius maximus, so its not so much of a "I like you stay here" its giving more "you protect, protect me here"

[stray gale]

yeah and I don't disagree with that

he likes people who do what he says

[lean garden]

And its also in the backdrop that she's already protected him from enemies within the empire

[stray gale]

so being a woman or not is not in the equation

[fresh sail]

Why bother
Again, like I said
Everything I could possible say will be ruled out by you as "not evidence"
So..... why bother?

[stray gale]

i.e. not misogynistic, yeah?

[fresh sail]

Its so hard to leave btw when everyone needs the last word and keeps pinging me

[brittle siren]

The what is your argument here though (still confused with the other guy)

[stray gale]

well you kinda had to read earlier

but someone is saying that ballas is misogynistic and the rest of us are saying that he isn't

[restive river]

Actual evidence would be FROM THE GAME ITSELF
Which you have not presented
This is just reading as you don’t have actual evidence

[stray gale]

he doesn't hate people on the basis of them being women, he hates them on the basis of them defying him

[restive river]

You can do this cool thing called turning off your screen!

[stray gale]

hildryn is a woman who does what he says, so he likes her

[brittle siren]

The red pfp guy?

[stray gale]

if he were a misogynistic, he would probably hate her anyway

[restive river]

Which Margulis didn’t even do, she just also loved the tenno and he got omega butt hurt lmao

[stray gale]

yeah

[lean garden]

That's kind of what I'm trying to get at, but not because he was acting all nice to her, but rather that she was merely a tool, and as we all know tools come in all shapes and sizes

[restive river]

“Waah waaah she loves them and me? Waaah no just me just me!! Waaaah” -Ballas, probably

[stray gale]

yeah sure, though that doesn't change too much about the point in general

[fresh sail]

I could..... you could also cease with the snide comments
You won't ofc
Bc for as much as I'm the bad guy in this scenario, it clearly brings you great joy to keep "owning" the red pfp guy

[stray gale]

if he likes his tools woman-shaped, then that rules out misogyny

or rather, does not mind whether his tools are women or not

[brittle siren]

Your opinion isn't evidence. In this channel, you either making headcanon, or represents an evident by quote anything that help you in that argument

In this case, you are doing the second thing, which failed miserably

[restive river]

^^^

[stray gale]

they shoulda gender swapped ballas so we got toxic orokin yuri

[fresh sail]

Bc Ballas treating Margulis uniquely isn't evidence that is in the game, right?

[stray gale]

it would also have avoided this misogyny discourse

[lean garden]

oooh the double whammy of toxic yuri and old man yaoi

[restive river]

I will say it again
When did he treat any other woman like he did Margulis?

[stray gale]

the point that everyone keeps making is that ballas treated margulis uniquely badly becuase she is margulis, not because she is a woman

hypothetically gay ballas would have treated mangulis just as poorly, imo

[restive river]

Cause Ballas’ hatred towards others is pretty obviously because he cannot control them, not cause of how they identify

[brittle siren]

But, he hated everyone too, Margulis mainly because she loved the Tenno, and he jealous anout that

[fresh sail]

All I've seen to combat my own "opinions" is..... opinions
But we'll get nowhere since it seems the only thing to decide if evidence is mere opinion is simple feeling very strongly on the matter
And the feelings of others smothers my opinions, and as such I am the loser
Alas for moi~

[lean garden]

and ballas is such a narc that his punishment for umbra was modeled after his own self-inflicted pain LMAO, all because he did something that Ballas didnt likey

[stray gale]

like, do you think if margulis were a man, ballas would have been any easier on her?

[graceful swan]

No

[restive river]

Code for: I don’t have any actual evidence so woe is me

[fresh sail]

Its kinda interesting how this became centered around Ballas when it started as a critique on Orokin society in general
In a way, Ballas kinda won again

[brittle siren]

He even making Gara to spite one of his colleague, Glassmaker

[restive river]

True actuallu lmao

[stray gale]

because tbh there aren't really that many orokin in the story and ballas has by far the most characerisation

[restive river]

We should kill him again by ending this :]

[fresh sail]

Oh look, more snide vaguely insulting commentary
This is why you shall never have the moral high ground

[feral cape]

What's the argument?

[lean garden]

nothing important

[feral cape]

Is it ballas is sexist?

[restive river]

yeah

[feral cape]

He's just Clovis bray everyone else is not him

As a soon to be broken man once said "your either perfect or your not me"

[brittle siren]

That Ballas treat woman worse than he treat on man

Which, did you even see what he did on Umbra?

What he did with Umbra is WORSE than what Margulis got

[lean garden]

funny enough, clovis bray is sexist, and thats because the dumbass was incredibly specific on his generalised view on women

[restive river]

And with any lack of evidence you have still yet to change my mind
I have asked
You have not given
I’m getting snide because you’ve been difficult
This isn’t about high ground, this is about you not have evidence for your headcanon.

[feral cape]

Ballas is cell if cell wasn't the coolest person ever

https://tenor.com/view/perfect-cell-balling-perfect-cell-dragon-ball-z-ballin-cell-ballin-gif-6400456760564649584

Ballas could never

[restive river]

He’s ballin more than Ballas

[brittle siren]

I still don't know why Cell exist lmao
Like idk what that mad scientist think when making a "android" like that

[feral cape]

I know nothing about him other than he was a villain in dbz and he's perfect

[sage moat]

he wanted to kill goku

[graceful swan]

This is how one of my What if stories ended
Now I'll drag him back from Tau
And watch this kill him

[brittle siren]

You wouldn't want to see his second form

[brittle siren]

Lmao

[fresh sail]

At this point, you're far more entertaining to wind up than to convince
.....maybe that statement will finally get this matter to drop~

[sage moat]

also was that argument that ballas was a misogynist because ballas looked at yareli and was like "yeah id be fine being a woman for a few decades. if she wasn't a LITTLE SCAMP"

[woven coyote]

Apparently the argument was ballas is a misogynist because margulis

[feral cape]

Which ignores that ballas is actually a narcissist

[brittle siren]

Idk why he keep mentioning Margulis when Umbra exist

[stiff fable]

Yareli Prime's donor pushed Ballas out of her mind and metaphorically pissed on the Kuva

[sage moat]

the orokin seemed to not have sexism. sadly they kept that balanced by having every other -ism in the book

[lean garden]

tl;dr women just didnt fit into his understanding of how the human race worked, so he was wary of women

this man somehow had a family and was surprised they all hated him

[feral cape]

Truly the embodiment of "what do you mean im a bigot i hate everyone"

[stiff fable]

So he Warframe'd her out of spite

[waxen gyro]

It's crazy how without fail there's always some sort of passive aggressive conflict happening here

[sage moat]

TRUE!

[brittle siren]

Wait Ballas was going to he a woman if the girl not throwing him out 😭

[stiff fable]

Yes

[sage moat]

i mean ok ballas is technically a misogynist technically

by the books, he views women as inferior to him

but that's only because he views EVERYONE as inferior to him

[brittle siren]

Well no, please look at the Umbra bible

[restive river]

I mean discussing this with you and trying to get any evidence from you has just been a way to pass the time and distract myself from my bodily pains

[restive river]

It’s actually amazing when actual discussions take place

[waxen gyro]

https://tenor.com/view/sniper-tf2-professionals-have-standards-drive-gif-15105282

[stiff fable]

Oh right how did the surgery go

[waxen gyro]

I'm not a misogynist, please. EVERYONE is inferior than me

[sage moat]

oh dear i've just uncovered a cool reading of warframe

[lean garden]

yea so he is technically as much a misogynist as he is a misandryst

[brittle siren]

Even my 2 Sentient legs

[restive river]

Good! I’m happier than ever and also very tired and in consistent pain

[sage moat]

for all the transference and kuva and body modification, the thing that ultimate led to the downfall of the orokin was...
heartbreak.

[restive river]

The amount of blood post-op is sometimes distressing ngl

[stiff fable]

Congrats!

[waxen gyro]

So i've heard

[stiff fable]

Yeaaaaaaaaah

[woven coyote]

Narcisistic heartbreak

[brittle siren]

Hopefully the pain will be gone soon

[stiff fable]

Still, thrilled to hear it was a success

[sage moat]

love is once again proven to be extremely important to the plot of warframe

[waxen gyro]

It's a fashion statement

[restive river]

You should be here for when actual discussions take place which
Sounds like one is happening with them gone

[sage moat]

the opposite of love isn't hate, its indifference

[restive river]

[brittle siren]

Funny that Natah make one of his leg dangling

[waxen gyro]

It's very cool. I lovvee iit

[woven coyote]

Warframe is really a game about trauma and how people deal with it

[woven coyote]

And allllll the emotions surrounding it

[waxen gyro]

It has many intersectional themes, which is crazy. Guess that happens when you have like 14 years of runtime

[brittle siren]

WALLY IN THE FRAME OF WARS MENTIONED ????!!!!

[restive river]

1st big arc: how this man loved this woman was toxic and terrible and now how you love anybody
2nd big arc: love people how you should to stop an eldritch entity devoid of and weak to basic love

[sage moat]

yes! and it shines a particular spotlight on love particularly

[restive river]

Guys what if we make the 2nd man in the wall so Wally can have wall yaoi and he will be defeated

[brittle siren]

Or woman

[restive river]

Love and trauma
That’s Warframe!

[woven coyote]

Wall yaoi was not int today's bingo card

[restive river]

Or Woman yes
Or a nonbinary wall person!

[sage moat]

forming connections and loving others is an excellent way to overcome trauma so long as you use it as a way to move forward instead of a rug to hide your trauma under

[restive river]

Wall yaoi

[waxen gyro]

https://tenor.com/view/albrecht-entrati-the-man-in-the-wall-warframe-1999-warframe-you-are-late-warframe-jojo-gif-4432154459658682236

[brittle siren]

Fun fact: your room always have at least 4some

[restive river]

I wish I had the meme of Albrecht and Loid with Wally intruding on their love

[woven coyote]

Lol

[restive river]

Quote of the day

[lean garden]

like lets break it down:

1. Ballass lets marge die because he was big mad that she focused more on the tenno than him
2. Ballass takes the very thing that cause the above to use in his war project
3. Ballass leaks that information of the thing that was turning the tide, to the enemy because of 1)
4. Ballass captures the sentient sent out by the Sentients because of 3) to make up for what he did in 1)
5. Ballass gets a repeat of 1) because shocker, you recreated the same woman
6. Ballass watches as the orokin society he blames for 1) get rekted because of 4) and 5)

[sage moat]

"Awesome old man yaoi"
"Evil and intimidating wall"

[restive river]

Reasons we should kill ballas again: he was mean to mom twice ):

[brittle siren]

Let's do that on the Warden

[sage moat]

oh btw is there confirmation on what the warden is

[restive river]

He was mean to kullervo

[fresh sail]

..........Hi~

[brittle siren]

Just manifestation of Kullervo sins

[restive river]

Manifestation of Kullervo’s toxic yaoi crush

[sage moat]

i see thank you

[restive river]

SCATTER

[brittle siren]

And to us, a crime must not be tolerated

[restive river]

Kullervo has terrible taste in men

[sage moat]

kullervo is one of the Health Boys and as a nidus and inaros player i can not forgive being mean to him

[brittle siren]

Kullervo has too much yaoi crush that his mom died

[fresh sail]

See, I find myself incapable of agreeing with that statement
Even tho its arguably more of a tagline than a statement categorical

[restive river]

Good summary of his story actually

[fresh sail]

Indifference is a middle ground
You can't feel hate nor love for anyone or anything w/o starting at feeling not much at all for them

[brittle siren]

Tbh Wally hating the Orokin making him less "indifference" over time

[sage moat]

indifference is feeling nothing, love and hate are both feeling a lot

they are opposites in that way. i actually have a story in the works about this

[fresh sail]

"The best revenge is a life well lived" is more accurate than that line
And I don't even find that one as truthful as some

[sage moat]

even hate is passion. hate can keep you going

indifference is a slow and insidious killer that drains all meaning from your life

[brittle siren]

Tbh Wally have valid reason to stir all of chaos

Ballas in other hand didn't

[fresh sail]

Call me a cynic, but "The opposite of hate is Indifference" feels like a vaguely Disney-esque way to combat an ideal
Much like how "The best revenge is a life well lived" is intended as a bit of self-help

[sage moat]

to choose indifference is to kill yourself while you're alive

[brittle siren]

Or long enough to see yourself become a block of sand with silver legs

[sage moat]

im extremely passionate about this because i was an extremely indifferent person at a point and it was by far the worst section of my life

[lean garden]

if you check out freud's work he states (paraphrased): "A sick man will forgoe all love for indifference", which is to say thats a funny way to say you've never had parents who cared for you when they were sick

[fresh sail]

That's so interesting
I find feeling this way or that about someone much much harder

Drifter only feels empty at Indifference bc they're human
Alien manners of being frighten them, and so they violently reject it the same way humans do all the things they come to fear

[sage moat]

because when you live for hate, at least you're alive. at least you have passion. you have a reason to keep going. If you are indifferent entirely, you don't have that. you have no reason to stay alive.

[sage moat]

freud is a sad sad man

[fresh sail]

Perhaps
But Indifference can also be a coping mechanism
And a manner of peace besides

I think the truest poison is stagnation
Monotony
Indifference isn't the poison, its staying IN it

[sage moat]

i find it an unhealthy coping mechanism. but you are right that it is a manner of peace

[fresh sail]

Change is perhaps the truest quality of existence

[lean garden]

quite sad, had fun dissecting his work, and then seeing how later psyschoanalysts expanded and critique the baseline

so we get things like hegel etc

[fresh sail]

Maybe
But no more harmful than hate or even love

What's most important is to find what works for you as an individual

[tall echo]

Depends

[sage moat]

and it is passion that brings about that change, yes? indifference and stagnation are inherently linked because someone indifferent will never seek change. someone who feels love or hate will always strive towards changing things toward that goal

[lean garden]

of a kind perhaps, but as I suspect you know, not a real one, nor a sustainable kind

[sage moat]

i like this conversation btw im not trying to be mean i just like clashing our worldviews like this

iron sharpens iron

[fresh sail]

Change is the natural state
But that doesn't make it inherently good
Passion led to both great ingenuities that enriched human life
And it also lead to atrocities and abominations that brought the end of countless many

[restive river]

Entropy, chaos, change
:]

[fresh sail]

The atom bomb was undoubtedly crafted by a man once quite passionate indeed
The regret only surfaced afterwards

[woven coyote]

Yeah stagnation is no good

Even death isn't stagnant as even on scientific levels it is a change of matter

It is natural to chabge

[fresh sail]

But regret saves no lives, enriches nothing

[sage moat]

and think about how the atom bomb expanded humanity! it had horrific ramifications but it later led to nuclear power!

[fresh sail]

Its not necessarily the only thing that could have led to that discovery

[tall echo]

Good can't exist without bad

[sage moat]

passion for science was never the issue, it was indifference to the lives that would be harmed

[lean garden]

not just the bomb, there were tons of horrific human experiments conducted during that period of time that became essential in understanding the human body

things that we otherwise would not have known because there was no way to find out without severe cruelty

horrendous, abhorrent, and yet crucial

disgusting research repurposed

[fresh sail]

Most things have both virtues and vice
I find this an accurate statement to describe both passion and indifference both
Electricity powers most of what we own just as easily as the lightning bolt strikes the haplessly tall man standing in the thunder storm

[restive river]

Why he standing in that storm ):

[sage moat]

there were ways to find out without severe cruelty though! if we had only waited. we can see into a human body in near perfect detail now, vivisections were never necessary, we just couldn't wait because we felt no passion for our fellow person. be passionate about everything, as many things as possible.

[lean garden]

I see why you put pope in your handle lol

[sage moat]

am i coming off as preachy? i apologize if i am im just. well. passionate about this

[lean garden]

we can see into a human body in near perfect detail now
I think the issue with this idea is that its because of what was done that this is possible

[lean garden]

no lol, its just that theres a specific source for this quote lol

[fresh sail]

No
I've found that so long as one isn't being outright rude, its on the recipient of the speech to find someone "preachy"

[tall echo]

Sometimes terrible things are necessary for progress

[lilac aspen]

The people who committed the terrible act didn’t want to wait on what, during that time period, they did not believe was even possible of occurring.

[lean garden]

horrible, shouldn't have been needed, necessary

[fresh sail]

Some introspection and caution is helpful, but nobody helped themselves by agonizing over how they might be perceived

Also
You can most certainly count on any person affronted by the manner in which you speak to be quite vocal about it
Certain, in fact

[sage moat]

this is a weak spot in my worldview. do i think horrific experimentation was necessary?
I don't think it was, but my thoughts on it aren't super fleshed out

[proper barn]

Okay medical research took so long cuz people thought like autopsies where the work of Satan so people that wanted go study the human body literally had to rob Graves.

[fresh sail]

Having less expansive thoughts on a matter one is not obligated to ponder is hardly a sin

If you're not outright praising and glorifying what happened, chances are precious few will find issues with you

[lean garden]

The critical thing is that extremely likely that our current understanding of the human body and its limits requires the fruits of whatever was done by [insert group of "mad" scientist]. This isnt to say we can't or shouldnt use that data, but rather it becomes even more important to utilise it for good. Can't undo what those bozos did, can do better than them tho

[sage moat]

yes! i agree with that

[proper barn]

Like you realize the dark ages and stuff is cuz like Christians saw all medicine as like "oh those heretics talking about how bacteria works over in the middle east and Asian and even the Roman's are wrong illness ks cuz you don't a grave sin and its the devil coming out of your body". @sage moat

[stray gale]

I think thereis some validity to the argument that the atom bombing of japan basically stopped a nuclear war from happening later

because people did not understand just how bad an atom bomb was until they used it

and if not for seeing it first hand there, they would have underestimated it and gone nuts later on

[lilac aspen]

War makes people quickly try to progress, which in turns makes them more willing to become indifferent to cruel acts if it means learning or making something to improve their chances at survival.

Honestly the experiments and nukes were terrible and should have never been done but it did open up a lot of things and also made people more stern regarding people committing such acts.

[stiff fable]

Oh boy are we talking about the justification for the nukes

[fresh sail]

It would require some manner of superhuman capable of looking into the future, or peering into alternate timeline, to definitively state that the reality where we never did this or that would have been superior or inferior to the reality we live in now

[lean garden]

which in modern context is quite funny, because the torah measures for "uncleanliness" is effectively social distancing. No really.

[stiff fable]

I love this discussion (unironically)

[tall echo]

And then they used another

[proper barn]

No I know.

[sage moat]

well more broadly its Were Horrible Acts Necessary to Advance Science?

[stray gale]

yeah, most of the super bad effects don't manifest until much later, that was the problem

[proper barn]

Lmao

[fresh sail]

I feel...... inclined to state with my emotions that the ideal reality is one where humans never felt inclined to explore this area of science whatsoever
I do not disagree with you, but unnecessary loss of human lives is not something I can ever consider a categorical good

[stray gale]

the military higher-ups basically just thought "so an atomb bomb is just a lot of heat and pressure? the fire bombs were already that and we used a lot of them so an atom bomb is just a really efficient one of those. no problem"

[stiff fable]

Like, the people who dropped the nukes did so because they were crass racists who really wanted to show off that they could destroy entire cities at once, and made a bunch of excuses as to why they were necessary

[sage moat]

do you mean nuclear science or bombs

[lean garden]

Humans? Not want to play with things that make boom? Never?

If its a few things a human cannot do without, its boom and speed

[fresh sail]

Could we have done entirely without nuclear physics and/or power? I think so

[stray gale]

and then it's only afterward that people actually got to see that all the radiation poisoning and fallout was actually far worse to deal with than they had initially imagined

[stiff fable]

But the excuses (that Japan would fight to the last man, woman and child and that Russia was going to try and swallow Japan) actually were correct

[woven coyote]

Humans are just 40k orkz

[lean garden]

ah we come into the utilitarian argument!

[stiff fable]

Yep!

[feral cape]

I mean its either nuclear power or like demolish the atmosphere

[stiff fable]

It's ridiculously messed up

[fresh sail]

The part that bothers me the most is that the shadows of those annihilated by the atom still remain to this day
Its as if reality wasn't quick enough to realize that those who cast the shadow were gone

[lilac aspen]

Once again we are not escaping the “Humans are Space Orcs” accusations.

[sage moat]

yeah but i feel like it isn't realistic to think about that for 2 reasons

1. humans are so super duper curious about everything
2. i feel like nuclear power is going to be extremely important to humanity's future

[woven coyote]

Well we never denied those accusations lol

[lean garden]

WAAAAAAAAAAAGH

[fresh sail]

They truly are an abomination
Cast shadows without solid matter to cast them?
How could that result be called anything else

[sage moat]

humans are also 40k Orkz because truly legitimately if we believe hard enough we can do anything

[feral cape]

Its as it stands the only viable green energy is nuclear wind isn't really green and solar takes far far too much space to be effective hydrodams whilst insanely effective have a really big issue of there's only so many really big rivers

[stiff fable]

https://tenor.com/view/guitar-orks-waaagh-warhammer40k-wh40k-warhammer40000-gif-25038143

[fresh sail]

Well
The adage "Curiosity killed the cat" definitely exists for a reason

[sage moat]

well ok nuclear isn't exactly green but its better than others.

[woven coyote]

And all the fauna, flora, and people living near said rivers

[lilac aspen]

Imagine coming to Earth
And these silly earthlings are literally harnessing spontaneous combustion to, get this, light up a roll of cut up dried leaves to inhale its fumes.

Space orcs, we are space orcs.

[lean garden]

woof, theres a ton of medical science that relies on nuclear physics. Even the MRI iirc

[fresh sail]

One day, we will surely kill ourselves
All of us, quite possibly all at once
The only true question..... is "When?"

[feral cape]

Coal waste is significantly more radioactive so

[sage moat]

even if we do, what we made beforehand was quite beautiful wasn't it?

[lean garden]

havent you watched the Simpsons? Nuclear is as green as it gets! Literally

-# For legal reasons nuclear waste is not glowing green goo lol

[woven coyote]

Was just compounding on the complexity of hydrodams

[feral cape]

Oh i thought you saying something else

[lilac aspen]

I doubt it
Humans are stubborn
Even if we try to some are bound to get out of the rubble and continue

[woven coyote]

Beyond just limited rivers you have even less rivers without enough people living nearby to cause logistical nightmares

[lilac aspen]

Question is will they learn from it or just repeat it

[fresh sail]

I don't seek to convince anyone to align with my view on this, but equally I think its impossible to sway me from my cynicism either
Humans are preternaturally disposed towards carelessly harming each other just as much as we are inclined towards instinctually protection of vulnerables like women, children and elderly
And even that is frequently in doubt, especially of late

[lean garden]

and aside from that, small nations cannot properly utilise most green options due to landmass

[woven coyote]

That too

[tall echo]

That depends entirely on the individuals