lore-discussion

[river thicket]

Middles ages is like at the fall of western rome all the way to renaissance

[proper barn]

Also Part of the grinner story I'd a whole thing about showing them there's another way.

[river thicket]

The what?

[proper barn]

Okay the Kelya de thame story line.

[river thicket]

Oh that

[raven urchin]

You know, for the capitalism system to exist, it needs to have poverty, just gonna say that and leave

[proper barn]

Also we defeat Ctluthlu with the power of gay old men.

You're telling me this game has no message about anything?

[river thicket]

You talking about Wally?

[proper barn]

Yes.

[river thicket]

Well yeah poverty is one of the most difficult things to solve and even before that people were still poor

[river thicket]

Has it been confirmed though

[proper barn]

What?

[river thicket]

the old men part

[proper barn]

That gay people exist?

Gay people exist yes.

[raven urchin]

Not that hard outside of capitalysm

[river thicket]

what no that they like each other cause didn't one have a wife?

[proper barn]

Who?

[river thicket]

Uh literally during the medival ages everyone was broke?

[tepid goblet]

Albrecht is bi

[proper barn]

Also bi men exist.

[raven urchin]

Sorry, I said I would leave, now I'm leaving for real

[proper barn]

But we don't know who Mothers Mom is.

Granda is father's Mom.

[river thicket]

isn't it gradnma?

[raven urchin]

Not talking about that though

[tepid goblet]

No

[proper barn]

Grandma is father's mom @river thicket

[river thicket]

oh

The family tree all over the place currently

[proper barn]

Not really.

This is normal.

[tepid goblet]

Grandma is father's mother father married into the entrati family

[river thicket]

In my head not the actual tree as I rearrange it

Holy my eyes have been opened

[river thicket]

very helpful thank you

[proper barn]

But yes

They are gay grandpa's

[river thicket]

Y'all got a favorite faction?

[proper barn]

Holdfasts are cool.

[river thicket]

I like the sentients and Parvos corpus before they fell

[tepid goblet]

To clarify: The original entrati are Albrecht > Albrechts unnamed ex wife > mother. Father married into the family when he married mother and grandmother is father's mother. Mother and father then had son and daughter.

[river thicket]

Everyone is human in the sol system right?

[proper barn]

They didn't fall. They just got worse at being evil capitalists. It's like Megatron and Starscream

[proper barn]

Yes.

[river thicket]

Humans causing each other suffering very real life

this just makes me think aliens will never come to warframe

[proper barn]

Mostly capitalists and royalty though.

[river thicket]

Nah its human on human why does it matter what system they are under?

[proper barn]

Yes it matters a lot actually.

[river thicket]

Capitalism doesn't tell you to wipe people out

[proper barn]

But it does push you towards more gains in capital.

Which causes human suffering.

[river thicket]

they are literally a merchant cult and gains does not equal human suffering

[proper barn]

It does though.

[river thicket]

Yeah because they have no morals that isn't the systems fault

[proper barn]

To continually get profit it would necessity that.

Cuz if you just Made a singular good product you couldn't get endlessly increasing profits.

[river thicket]

thats why they are diverse they sell weapons and other technologies

[tepid goblet]

The Solaris?

They're all debt slaves

The corpus deal in slavery

[proper barn]

"Diverse" they mostly are loan sharks.

[tepid goblet]

Human suffering

[river thicket]

Thats mostly Nef Anyo though

[proper barn]

And get people in by a literally pryamid scheme

That's even what Parvos said to do.

[river thicket]

Eh fair point

[proper barn]

Lie cheat steal be a loan shark.

Enslave your brother.

[river thicket]

But then again he was literally just a farmer

how else would he make it

[proper barn]

He hated farmers though

He hated his brother for being fine with being a farmer.

[river thicket]

Wasn't it because of some potential or something I forgot

[river thicket]

Ambition

[proper barn]

You realize parovs is crazy and evil right?

Like he pretends to be weak so we try to help him.

[river thicket]

Depends honestly average corpus even without all the conditioning probably woulnd't see him as bad

[proper barn]

Then after the quest ends like a mob boss he goes

"Help me or I'll kill your family"

[river thicket]

I mean what would you do in his situation?

[proper barn]

Disagree. When Parvos is talking down Nef it's not cus they are evil its cuz they are bad at being evil capitalists.

[river thicket]

He says because they twisted his teachings and that they get fat off some elses work

My english is not it today

[proper barn]

This is literally Megatron ajd Stars Starscream arguing who should lead the decepticons Dawg

[river thicket]

Alright then who is the good guy in this setting then?

[proper barn]

The tenno

The cetus people the Solaris united

The holdfasts

The protos.

[river thicket]

Solaris people kinda put themselves in that situation with the debt

[river thicket]

This honeslty depends considering they mass murder like millions a day

[proper barn]

Do you not understand how debt slavery works? It's literally not their fault they can't make money without going into debt.

[river thicket]

I agree with this

[proper barn]

The system is literally rigged against them dawg.

Did you play the fortuna quest? If you can't pay a debt and you die it goes to a friend or relative.

Also you could get brained shelved which literally makes people go crazy.

[river thicket]

Oh yeah I just remebered that part

[proper barn]

Did you not talk to ticker? Or see what happened to legs?

[river thicket]

Nah I forgot

I remember now

[proper barn]

Or understand that having to go into debt to do a job is like literally terrible.

God media illiterate Jesus christ.

[river thicket]

I said I forgot

[river thicket]

No need to get worked up

[restive river]

Insane take 😭

[river thicket]

I got a plethora of insane takes

Warframe lore so deep I'm drowning rn

[celest pine]

https://tenor.com/view/bait-thats-bait-tom-hardy-mad-max-gif-5055384

[restive river]

You don’t gotta drown when we throwing you a floatie

[solid basalt]

The Solaris lowkey make the corpus look way more silly and dumb than they should be. I mean they can built almost anything but they still haven´t found a way to substitute the Solaris (somehow). (i`m really bad at english). And if it is just because of Nefs sadism... again... dumb.

[river thicket]

yeah I know but its hard to grasp when I turn my brain off for a rip and tear game

I just chop people up and go about my day and speed run quest

[river thicket]

This is true tbh they could just make robots to do the work for them but then again sol are technically like cyborgs plus I'm a 100% sure they sell the body parts

the organic ones anyway

[restive river]

Iirc it is just cause Nef is dumb
He even threatens to replace them with Moas
It’s just a scheme for grofit :p

[proper barn]

Also Parvos literally tries to steal jades remains to make weapons in that mission Ordis even says parvos is just as bad as the Orokin. @river thicket

[river thicket]

Money makes the world go round

[solid basalt]

Oh so he IS dumb.

[restive river]

They sell both the mechanical parts and organics
Or rather
They’re repossessed

[river thicket]

Yeah but then again isn't Ordis a serial killer?

[celest pine]

Keeping Solaris around so Corpus can harvest their bodyparts/organs that've been sold for debt to extend the life of Corpus bigwigs. Every faction obsessed with the immortality the Orokin supposedly had.

[restive river]

And that’s why Parvos was mad
Bro was bad at being evil

[solid basalt]

Wouldn´t they have prothetics?

[proper barn]

I mean the point of the Solaris are the workers always have the power you just need to take it.

[restive river]

The Solaris have organic body parts AND robotic parts

[river thicket]

Communism

[restive river]

Look at Legs before he got his while body repossessed

[proper barn]

Or just unions.

[solid basalt]

Oh

[proper barn]

You know unions exist right?

[river thicket]

Could be both

[proper barn]

I gotta go now but bruh

[solid basalt]

Oh yeah I forgot that... holy...

[river thicket]

this whole universe is basically Communism vs Capatilism vs Facism vs Do gooders

[solid basalt]

Vs Weird entropy entity from the wall

[river thicket]

all of them taken to the literal extreme

[river thicket]

yeah that to

[woven coyote]

Mercenary

[river thicket]

oh really?

[woven coyote]

Leader of a pretty successfull mercenary clan actually

Successfull enough to be given an audience with the orokin

[restive river]

Bro was gonna be an Orokin but he said nah
The gods must bleed.

[river thicket]

Does Natah grow or did she stop growing?

[river thicket]

He shoulda just been one tbh

[restive river]

I mean she grows as a person???
Wdym 😭

[river thicket]

got a fate much worse then death

[river thicket]

like her sentient body

[restive river]

Now he’s an eternal babysitter

[woven coyote]

Then they tried their ritual berzerker suicide thing and take the orokin with them, which failed because the orokin were up and laughing in no time, and then glassed ordan

[restive river]

She’s always a sentient so
But she lost that part of her
And the rest of her was lost
Drifter saved her hand and she grew from that
So I’d say sentients grow to a point and stop

[river thicket]

because hunhow kept getting bigger right?

or are the mini sentients the restult of them losing their sentience due to void?

[woven coyote]

Not really, as far as we know that is his size

[restive river]

Those are fragments
Sentients can fragment themselves

The mimics we fight in the sacrifice are from Natah for example

[woven coyote]

The drones are fragments

And "higher" sentient birth could be related to something pazuul called "manifold" but then again pazuull is completely coo coo

[river thicket]

Isn't Pazuul the storngest and oldest archon?

[raven urchin]

Have you done Kahl's quest?

[river thicket]

ye

[raven urchin]

So, Pazull is Erra...

[river thicket]

Ik

but isn't Pazuul one of the archons to? Because for Nira it says she whispers to keep Erra asleep

[raven urchin]

That's because they are all his minions I think

[restive river]

Pazuul and Erra aren’t the same person
Pazuul is inhabiting Erra’s body and Erra is still in there to some extent

Pazuul is the present leader of Narmer

Which
Very on the nose, the goat/ram in charge of the messed up cult faction

or uh. The second messed up cult (the corpus are technically a cult)

[woven coyote]

Aided by a wolf, owl, and serpent

[restive river]

Yupp

[hollow blaze]

I hope we get to fight Pazuul some day. Same with Nef.

[restive river]

Me too

I want the Nef railjack fight from the. I think it was the 2018 tennocon demo

[woven coyote]

We are getting vor rework so i think they might be finally getting to that

[restive river]

Yeah cause 2019 showed duviri

[river thicket]

yes

I wanna fight Hunhow

[restive river]

I mean same but it seems racist grandpa is on the redemption arc

[river thicket]

Fr

I really wanan fight the worm though she is so annoying

[tall echo]

He is certainly an archon

[river thicket]

nira is the oldest

[high bay]

Are Warframe’s closer to 6’2” or 2m tall?

[tall echo]

[brittle siren]

I mean he was considered as leader of fallen Narmer so

[tall echo]

He made himself the leader

[brittle siren]

But then the other Archon would also try to take the throne no?

[tall echo]

They are basically the ones actually in charge, especially nira

[brittle siren]

If they don't accept him as leader they would already make a Narmer Civil War already

[brittle siren]

Yeah but the Lamb head is everywhere

[tall echo]

Pazuul is a puppet

[brittle siren]

Literally replace Ballas's

[brittle siren]

Is he? I mean in term of power, Erra body is pretty strong. He able to get in and kill some Prime frame

Until ofc Lotus use hyper void beams on him

With the Archon Shard I think Pazuul in Erra body would be far more powerful

[tall echo]

Pay attention to the archon hunt dialogues

[brittle siren]

I did and nothing in there mention that Pazuul is the puppet for other 3

Or you mistaken Erra is being puppet by Pazuul?

[tall echo]

Pazuul is just rambling incoherently while the other three actually do things

[brittle siren]

Isn't it the same for Ballas?

[tall echo]

Ballas gave orders

[brittle siren]

Ballas is sitting there do nothing and let his minions do his job

[brittle siren]

And why Pazuul does not?

He literally order to collecting cryotic

[tall echo]

Because he's busy being insane

[brittle siren]

And Lotus even acknowledged it

[brittle siren]

Oh so Ballas being a self inserted psychopath isn't the same what Pazuul doing

[tall echo]

I think you're missing the point

Ballas was sane and giving clear orders, pazuul is just shouting complete gibberish

[brittle siren]

Where did you get the info that Pazuul doesn't do anything?

I mean in the hunt he kinda just talking sh-t on us and the Lotus

Doesn't mean he's not in charge

[tall echo]

He's*

[tall echo]

It's not that he doesn't do anything, but aside from the cryotic he's just shouting of tau and other stuff

[brittle siren]

But again, his image is everywhere

[tall echo]

This is going nowhere

[humble sierra]

Lotus does have some dialogues that suggest Nira is manipulating him? And in Spy missions, Erra seemingly breaks free to apologize

[brittle siren]

In Nira fight?

[river thicket]

Nira is the one in charge manipulating him she is based off the serpent that told adam and eve to eat the apple

[brittle siren]

(mission start, variant) Lotus: "Nira. Could she somehow be responsible for what Erra has become? A repayment for what he did to her? The Serpent is old, Tenno, and full of secrets."

(mission start, variant) Lotus: "Who whispered dreams of dominion into Pazuul's ear? Who keeps Erra suppressed and tormented with delusions? The stench of Nira's venom is upon this, Tenno."

[humble sierra]

I would assume so

[river thicket]

Erra and Paziul inhabit the same body Nira keeps Erra asleep in order to puppet Pazuuel

[brittle siren]

So somehow Pazuul is inside Erra since the New War?

[river thicket]

Pazzul was already a existing archon they just brought him over to inhabit Erras body like how Nira pilots a mag prime

[humble sierra]

I think it's more like "oh hey, Erra still has a scrap of life remaining, let's Winter Soldier him into Pazuul"

[river thicket]

and Nira is the oldest of the three and most likely the strongest

well 4 actually

[brittle siren]

Lotus: "Nira devoured her brothers. I will not stand idly aside while she and Pazuul devour mine. Be my sword, Tenno. Strike."

[humble sierra]

Amar apparently was the one who taught Natah how to be a mimic, I barely ever fight Boreal so I don't know what extra lore tidbit he has

[river thicket]

he is the youngest

thats all I know

[brittle siren]

Well the Boreal fight, Lotus mention nothing about he teaching her

Amar however did train Natah

Lotus: "Archon Amar yearns for the New Creation that Pazuul has promised him. He imagines he will be a lord of the wilderness, instead of… what he is now. The price of that vision is measured in innocent lives. Stop him."

Also yeah Nira and Pazuul seem like equal in rank atm

Cuz the other was listening to Pazuul

[humble sierra]

Yeah that's what I said

[brittle siren]

Ah I misread

[humble sierra]

Alg happens to the best of us

[river thicket]

Trust me they aren't equal

[brittle siren]

So who is the real leader

[river thicket]

Nira

[brittle siren]

Since most of the time Natah only said "Pazuul did this to Amar/Boreal" etc

[river thicket]

Nira masterminded the whole Pazuul coming over and Pazuul is literally a jumbling mess

One is definitly just a figure head

[brittle siren]

Hmm ok I understand

[river thicket]

Plus if Nira ever stopped whispering Erra back to sleep Pazuul would be toast

[brittle siren]

Btw your name is familiar. Do you have a youtube channel?

[river thicket]

No

[brittle siren]

I was mistaken then

[river thicket]

Pretty sure I seen you some other server though

[brittle siren]

I wonder if someday Erra break the chain that Nira have on him

[river thicket]

Probably most likely... Its probably why Pazuul won't fight us because Erra will break free as soon as his grasp weakens.

[brittle siren]

Ngl Hunhow family is really persistent

Natah died like once and comeback

Erra died twice and still survive

Their mother is just gone

Hunhow also really sturdy, he survived even to this day

[river thicket]

I'm confused how the mother died like it doesn't say anything

[brittle siren]

Oh she just expended all her energy

For some reason

Iirc it because she bring most Sentient to the Origin system and died on the way back

She literally sacrificed for her kind

[river thicket]

We don't know what happened to her body

[brittle siren]

After new war? My theory she still near the sun or entirely consumed by it

[river thicket]

I mean someone could of flown it away

[brittle siren]

I doubt you can in that condition. Everything is falling apart

[river thicket]

It would be cool to see it return maybe when they add Tau

[restive river]

There’s like 8 sentients in the origin system
The rest are fragments or the eidolon

[river thicket]

I mean its made to be a sun destroyer

yeah only 8 true sentients then the rest are fragments

[restive river]

Praghasa
Hunhow
Erra
Natah/Lotus
the Archons (4)
And the Eidolon was already here for the 9th

[brittle siren]

Isn't both her and Hunhow can produce more in Tau and bring them to the fight?

[restive river]

I believe both are sterile
So
No

[river thicket]

the archons aren't sentient though? Aren't they just fusions

they can't self replicate or adapt

[restive river]

No they’re sentients

They’re just like
Special sentients

[brittle siren]

They once Sentient and died, then Erra make them alive again by fusing with Prime frame

[river thicket]

I mean if I'm not wrong Erra brought them back to life using the crystals

[restive river]

They originate from the Tau system, mockeries of old earth animals
Erra made them iirc
Natah learned from at least one

[restive river]

Ye, so I’m guessing they died at some point

[river thicket]

it was Amar I'm pretty sure

[restive river]

Yeah

It was Amar

My guess
They existed in Tau, they were chillin
Old War happens, they died
Erra took them, frames and the shards and boom. Archons

[brittle siren]

Also have any snake and owl still exist in Origin System

[restive river]

I’d classify an Archon as a sentient grafted onto some other form and given life through the anti-entropic archon crystals

[river thicket]

but why can't they adapt or self replicate?

[restive river]

Which
I’d love to get a Narmer update where Pazuul introduces 3 new Archons with the other shards

[restive river]

Likely due to their damage is my guess, they’re still incredibly powerful ofc

[brittle siren]

The Green one deal corro and toxin dmg 💀

[river thicket]

you know i feel like at this point sentients should of found a way to override the void effect

[restive river]

Like idk if they perished per say since if they were eidolons and had shards they’d be different as we have seen
So my guess is extensive damage and being grafted onto another form

[restive river]

It’s built into them
But
Maybe the ones in Tau have

Would not be surprised if Tau has sentients worshipping Wally with Mayan-esque temples and such tbh
I think it was Mayan that the sentients had a connection with

[brittle siren]

They kinda have some resistance. Originally they supposed to died when touch the void, but in reality it only weaken them and make them unable to reproduce (the shard is not count)

[restive river]

The shards can bring a sentient back from the brink if they’re an Eidolon
Apparently

[tall echo]

One did, but it got nuked

[restive river]

Going off of what has been observed

[river thicket]

which one

[river thicket]

You think the plains sentient is larger then hunhow?

[tall echo]

Ever gone to the plains at night

[river thicket]

oh yeah

[restive river]

The sentient and void weakness is kinda been obscured tbh, like it’s not clear sometimes
We know it makes them sterile and does hurt them but like
🤷‍♀️

[river thicket]

OH right the kuva

Kuva makes them fertile again

[tall echo]

It straight up dissolves them

[restive river]

Possibly, not sure if we have seen Hunhow in his full glory
The plains Eidolon is massive tho

[restive river]

Except for when it doesn’t

[tall echo]

It takes a while

[restive river]

I’d say Lotus while Lua was in the void but
She was def void shielded lol

Hunhow also used a cephalon as shielding against the void
No idea how that works

[tall echo]

But void exposure does inflict immense damage even if only for a short while

[tall echo]

Poorly

[river thicket]

Y'all think a sentient could make something like a warframe

[restive river]

Erra:

[tall echo]

Caliban

[river thicket]

I just looked up on the wiki and it says they can reproduce 3 ways

[tall echo]

3?

[river thicket]

Is this in the lore

[restive river]

I’d cross reference with the archives cause uh
What?

[tall echo]

Fragments, the normal method...?

[river thicket]

yeah budding, sexual, and then just complete self replicating

[tall echo]

That's just fragments 2

[restive river]

Yeah what lol

The fragments aren’t new sentients lol

[normal mountain]

so confused

[river thicket]

my question is how do they do it the normal method

[restive river]

It’s like if I ripped off a finger and it did stuff for me

[river thicket]

like dawg they are literally sticks

[restive river]

When a daddy sentient and a mommy sentient love eachother very much…

[tall echo]

Ig wiki thinks sentients are starfish

[restive river]

I actual imagine it’s kinda like how robots reproduce in futurama, if anything :p

Which
Is like bios essentially lol
Just robot version

[river thicket]

huh

so they just adapt a different method

[humble sierra]

Purple one doing crazy lightning attacks would be sick ah

Also my train of thought led me to us having the final confrontation with Man in the Wall in the same area as Awakening

[tall echo]

They should add a vala glarios equivalent for kuva liches and make it bopp bipp

[normal mountain]

Only problem I see with these ideas
Is that we already have Archons that deal toxin and electric
Nira and Boreal, respectively

[humble sierra]

Boreal does electric? Dang

Makes sense ofc

What else would he do? Blue damage?

[tall echo]

And amar does fire, which overlaps with orang

[humble sierra]

Radiation Archon

[normal mountain]

Maybe the purple one could do cold?

Silly little reversal-ish

[river thicket]

I feel like before adding any other archons they need to expand the 3 we have first

[normal mountain]

Cold, Radiation, and Magnetic
Done

the Radiation Archon will be nasty for sure

[river thicket]

Green aura and flies literally

[normal mountain]

Lol
Make the green one a literal fly

Zurgus the Fly
Deals Radiation damage

[humble sierra]

Make the Magnetic Damage one use Saryn's body since the Toxic one is using Mag's body

[normal mountain]

Like the Mag and Gauss helmets
I like it

[proper barn]

Sayrns body is toxic.

[restive river]

Kahl:

[lean garden]

I think I know their thought process

They had the original test version which was essentially a gelatinous starfish

And they randomly assumed that the gelatinous quality must be organic

Despite humans today being very able to make inorganic gelatinous substances

[karmic marten]

So it's kinda guaranteed ballas is the worst Person in Warframe universe and there's no way someone worser than ballas would appear?

[velvet cradle]

I can think of a few that come to mind but yes ballas is top of that list cos of his position of power and plot points

The only ones that comes close in my mind is maybe the elder queen of the grineer queen (but she is died) and possibly Pravos granum. Ironically both as leaders or powerful people to be a driving force of respective factions

But yea. Ballas was such a major driving force for lots of plot points but not everything is directly related to him

In modern warframe, Entrati is also becoming a major driving force and depending on how things happen, he may take second place or be a contender

[graceful swan]

Wally

Definitely getting up there

[north jolt]

The Grineer queens are close contenders, Parvos while technically an antagonist doesn't seem cruel for the sake of being cruel like Ballas. More just just very cut throat and "utilitarian" in a certain sense

Arguably Parvos is better then the rest of the Corpus in some ways, but probably also worse in others. Better then individuals like Nef Anyo or Alad V at least imo

[velvet cradle]

True. Nef is probs the worst of the Corpus but Parvos is in a much better position and power to do more cruel things

The whole deadlock protocol and nef claiming heritage of Parvos was to seize more power among corpus to probs do more harm

Nef and Alad certainly have the personality and mind to be cruel but still beholden to the board and investors a lot more than Parvos from what I have seen

[velvet cradle]

And the elder queen is certainly cruel and as bad as ballas as lots of the cruelties of the grineer are probably orders and stuff from them and the elder queen is an orokin and did continuity and likely used slaves or unwilling people to get the best bodies in height of orokin empire but we are not sure what kind of acts she did in the empire other than continuity

[proper barn]

Ehhhh

I would push back he enslaves his brother just cuz.

He's a ruthless businessman that his probably with the Corpus is they aren't currently evil enough.

[proper barn]

Well in deadlock Parvos literally pretends to be old and frail so you would help him and then he tries to kill you. At the end of the quest the email is literally like a mob boss message of "work with me or I'll kill your family".

[past halo]

Do you think the Technocyte Cyst the Coda put on our Warframes is like some tracker to keep an eye on us

[graceful swan]

Time tracker

[proper barn]

I would actually reverse that. It's the Helminth helping us try to track them.

[past halo]

No no, the tutorial tip on the Cyst says that the Coda is the one that placed the pimple there, not Helminth

[north jolt]

He did?

[proper barn]

Did you not listen to all his

Tenets?

[proper barn]

Oh I'm owned then.

[north jolt]

So where exactly can I find this?

[proper barn]

Okay in his tenets when he destroys his farm

He just has his brother just chained to his thrown.

Also Ordis literally calls Parvos as bad as the orokin.

If you care about that.

https://www.orokinarchives.com/fragments-tenets/

[north jolt]

As far as Ordis's comment goes I think the context of what specifically is going on in Operation Jade Light + Parvos being hostile towards the Tenno might indicate a slight bit of bias on Ordis's part. Not necessarily that he's wrong, but definitely a little bias going on

[proper barn]

Here are the tenets.

[north jolt]

Gracias

[proper barn]

Here's the picture.

[graceful swan]

Parvos literally acts like an Orokin

[proper barn]

I mean Parvos is trying to steal jades remains to use it in a mass weaponizing campaign.

Also I hate using the term "basis" like this.

"He has a basis against this Evil evil evil Villain"

[graceful swan]

Ordis isn’t being bias he’s just pointing out how Parvos sounds like Orokin

Parvos is becoming the people he hates

[proper barn]

He always was kinda.

Also i still like the idea that Wally was the "unearthly voice"

[graceful swan]

Devil in his eye and a golden hand I’m told

[brittle siren]

So when the Sentient was created? Before Zariman or after?

[misty helm]

Probably around the same time

More biased to say it was before

[strange turtle]

After

No reason for them to go against such a major taboo if they already have a colonisation expedition going on

[lean garden]

Hard after

Zariman has very few reasons to exist after the Sentients since we know the Sentients did their job

[brittle siren]

Yeah this guy made "warframe lore in a minute" and yeah a lot of stuff is really missing and wrong

https://youtu.be/QEx7nc-Nd-A?si=a8Znw7V25hl2872_

[lean garden]

0 reasons to send the Zariman via finger drive if the Solar Rail was already constructed by the Sentients

[brittle siren]

Well to be fair it very old vid that reuploaded for archive purposes

[misty helm]

If the timeline went like
The Orokin Empire sets its sight onto the Tau system given how the Sun is dying (or the percieved possibility of that happening is suddenly making the Seven 'nervous') -> They divise a plan to terraform the planets on Tau (meaning most if not all of them weren't habitable) -> Ballas proxy-designs the sentients (then executes the dude he used to present them to the Seven) -> The Zariman entire project is brought upon to provide with a human colonizing force -> Shit happens

[graceful swan]

Sentients weren’t even created second

[lean garden]

The Orokin Empire sets its sight onto the Tau system given how the Sun is dying (or the percieved possibility of that happening is suddenly making the Seven 'nervous')
Not the case, they only recognise that as immortal as they were, they literally die when the sun goes. Sun is not dying, the Orokin just don't want to wait around until that happens. Concurrently, the system is not looking all too great thanks to the Orokin
They divise a plan to terraform the planets on Tau (meaning most if not all of them weren't habitable)
Correct
Ballas proxy-designs the sentients (then executes the dude he used to present them to the Seven) -> The Zariman entire project is brought upon to provide with a human colonizing force -> Shit happens
Zariman goes first, Sentients come after

[misty helm]

Oh, I thought the Sentients were first given how it kinda made sense for me for the Orokin to have a logistical base already established once the Zariman 'settlers' came about

[graceful swan]

Sentients weren’t even a second attempt in the meeting thing they had approving them Tuvul mentions countless other attempts that led them to finally lift the AI law

[misty helm]

Yeah, my bad. I haven't found all the Tuvul lore fragments

[candid elm]

So what exactly is the lycanblight? Remnant of lore that's gone or smth new?

[lean garden]

Yea thats the common misconception folks run into, the problem would then be that its incompatible with what we know the Sentients actually accomplished, and what it means for transport to Tau:

The Sentients were tasked to build the Solar Rail from Origin to Tau. We know this was completed because this same rail was used by both the Orokin and the Sentients during the Old War. Since we thusly establish that the Solar Rail was completed, then it would stand to reason that the Zariman did not come after the Sentients, because the Zariman possessed a Reliquary Drive, meant for rail-less void jumps. There would be no point for the Zariman to be equipped with such a thing for the purpose of going to Tau if the rail was already completed

[lean garden]

the wuh?

[graceful swan]

It’s cosmetics from Nights of Nabarus

[candid elm]

Yeah a shoulder plate and a syndana

[misty helm]

Makes sense

What's the possibility they went with the whole AI/Sentients thing once the Zariman was lost to the void?

[lean garden]

eeeeeeh, theres probably some delay between

[misty helm]

Can't recall if the Zariman thing was instantaneous or if it was lost for a long time tho...

[lean garden]

The Zariman is implied to have returned during the Old War

[misty helm]

Oh, so some amount of time happened between the events

[lean garden]

undetermined amount but yes

[misty helm]

I think Ember Prime's codex mentioned something about it, though I may be remembering it wrong

[lean garden]

ember is old old, it suggested days but uh

days or months

[candid elm]

There's also ball hairs vitruvian

Think he said smth about them losing the war and then the tenno coming

I could swear there was smth about that

[lean garden]

He only said that they were a solution, but doesnt say when the zariman came back

[candid elm]

I might be thinking of grendel prime trailer though

[lean garden]

No thats just Ballas yapping about complaints that warframes are too genteel

[candid elm]

Ah right right

Odd complaint since there's already rhino and ember but oh well

[lean garden]

Rhino is like a bodybuilding, ember has... well you know

very "genteel"

[candid elm]

I guess so

[graceful swan]

Orokin investors are weird

[lean garden]

but grendel, oooooh fat man get in mah belleh

[candid elm]

That rhino prime codex though

Ugh, no way is rhino "genteel"

[graceful swan]

Some just complain to complain

[candid elm]

Guess so

[misty helm]

Speaking about warframes, the whole Jade adventure hit me like an Eximus fire blast

[candid elm]

Orokin were probably bored of smth like nidus or saryn

[graceful swan]

I dunno Nidus is a bit of a monster

[misty helm]

Orokin investors when seeing Wisp's Prime Assets

[charred patio]

I have eleanor right now
does this count as cheating?

I think I just friendzoned her

[graceful swan]

You only friendzone her if you press the bottom option

[charred patio]

I mean, it did lead to this

[north jolt]

https://tenor.com/view/minor-spelling-mistake-gif-21179057

No but in all seriousness you aren't wrong, I just think as he currently is Parvos, for all of the stuff he has done wrong, is still a couple notches below certain other people

[abstract girder]

Can someone explain to me what murmur is actualy? I just did the hex quest and i am still confused

[sage moat]

tmk they're just like little bits and bobs the void is controlling i don't think its very deep

[north jolt]

Also still doing some digging around on this, but it seems like its never actually explicitly stated that Parvos enslaved or imprisoned his own brother. This image, from Parvos himself, is the only thing remotely implicating such a thing, it's just odd to me he would seemingly show it, but not comment on it or mention it especially if he felt his brother deserved it in some way

[proper barn]

He made the tenets parvos

[abstract girder]

as void you mean the void itself after entraci experiments, or like the man in the wall puppets?

[proper barn]

No one else made them.

[north jolt]

Basically beings either created by, or most likely coming from Wally

Hence the "Fragmented whole" entity

[sage moat]

the man in the wall. the void itself is arguably not conscious and has no will

now i think there's an argument that wally is an embodiment of the void and therefore a form of its will, but that's neither here nor there

[proper barn]

The man in the wall is not the Void itself.

Neither is thrax.

They are same kind of entity.

[north jolt]

I tend to lean towards him being a entity connected to, but not entirely the same as "the void".

Kind of like how Duviri and it's residents (minus Teshin) could also be considered "void entities" in a way, though ones with a more human origin

[sage moat]

yeah. yeah you're right

you're definitely correct here. im just not sure how much differentiating "the void" from "the nigh omnipotent demon living in the void with near full control over it" matters right?

its like, yeah zeus and lightning were different but its not like that matters when everything about lightning is controlled by zeus at this point.
maybe im overshooting wally's power of the void? we haven't really seen him do much omnipotent stuff outside of the murmur

[north jolt]

It seems like any time the void comes into contact with some kind of potent emotion it results in something (usually bad) being created

[sage moat]

OH ASTERISK

[humble sierra]

You might be overshooting Wally's power

[sage moat]

i think the only reason bad things come out of the void is because every time someone's gone there they've been in a bad mental state or otherwise stressed by an outside factor

[north jolt]

There are probably limits to Wally's power, we just aren't sure what. They seem to be kind of vague because until now, he hasn't been able to touch Duviri, and his influence over our world is minimal (for now)

[sage moat]

i wouldn't be surprised if we don't see tau but we see something in the void resembling tau, made from the hopes and dreams of those aboard the zariman. duviri itself is a fairy tale paradise!

or. it was

[humble sierra]

He also seems like he can be physically wounded, judging from the whole finger thing, which is super interesting

[north jolt]

Probably, which given Entrati's backstory has a whole slew of interesting implications about WHY this particular entity spawned from him

[sage moat]

i think you put in a scared sciency magic man you get out a scary sciency magic man. you see what you expect, i think.

or at least, you did. before albrecht saw The Guy In The Drywall

[river thicket]

What are we discussing

[abstract girder]

so short story short: murmur are just some void traces controling stuff and atacking us?

[north jolt]

Kosher bacon recipes

[north jolt]

I think in some way or another they are a part of Wally and are acting out his will. Basically a hive mind he has some level of control or influence over

[river thicket]

Murmurs are like messangers of wally

[humble sierra]

They're "fragments" of him

[river thicket]

like how gods have messangers

[abstract girder]

it does explain while when doing the hex true ending, murmur comes to attack you

[north jolt]

Unfortunately that message is "violence"

[humble sierra]

Probably not actual pieces of him though

[north jolt]

Even more unfortunately for them, the Tenno specialize in violence

[river thicket]

They are though

[abstract girder]

maybe fractions of his void energy?

[river thicket]

doesn't it say wally ripped a piece of him off to make murmurs

[humble sierra]

Not sure about that

[north jolt]

I'm not familiar with the void tongue, but do any of the requiems or other void words we know about mention or have connections to "sand" ?

[river thicket]

Are primes always the original frames?

[north jolt]

No, whatshername at Maroo's who gives us relics confirmed this

Some frames started out as primes, some got primed later on, according to her

[river thicket]

Yeah alright ty

[north jolt]

If I had to guess, I think the frames that actually get narrated trailers by Ballas are the ones who started out primed maybe?

[abstract girder]

also a thing i didnt undersutnd: whats the triger for the whispers in the wall? i felt that the way the quest starts a bit forced, (i cam back after a 3 years break, maybe that was the reason)

but for me it felt that the quest was just like "hoo, hey, new stuff here"

the transition from that to the hex does make sence

[humble sierra]

Wally appearing at the end of New War triggered the scanners or whatever that Albrecht put up, starting the Kalymos sequence

[river thicket]

yeah this

[north jolt]

There was a slight amount of build up to it, but I guess technically the Kalymos sequence would be the official trigger. Maybe in some way was set up to automatically engage if the "Indifference" started breaking more and more into our world, like a sort of trap or snare figuratively speaking

[abstract girder]

i played the new war when it came out, no wonder it trigering after made no sence, it was just delayed cause launch times ig

[north jolt]

Ahh right

[abstract girder]

so if you play quest right after quest it makes sence then, i see

[north jolt]

So basically a "trap" in a figurative sense

[north jolt]

Unfortunately some people will never get to experience the ominous tapping and murmuring coming from where Loid normally hangs out at (before the labs become accessible)

[abstract girder]

wdym?

[north jolt]

Oh before the Whispers quest was actually added to the game, they did a bunch of stuff to tease towards it. Like in that area I mentioned, you could go to a specific spot to hear the tapping and murmuring, but only in that specific spot

It was kinda neat but I think only able to experience it if you was there for it at the time

[abstract girder]

hoo, i was not playing at the time

[north jolt]

Kind of the thing that inherently sucks about the live-service model: certain cool moments in the story, even if they're small or "unimportant" ones, just kinda end up being lost to newer players

And this went on for like 2 weeks I think? so for two weeks you just heard that very creepy and ominous noise, knowing it was building up to something bigger

[abstract girder]

BRO

i feel old...

for me i feel like (before this come back) the new war is the biggest new thing

after i came back sure, there is the whispers in the wall and such

[north jolt]

Me too. I think Im in the minority but I actually enjoyed the Orphix Venom events, even if they were pretty buggy and resulted in Limbo getting ANOTHER nerf

[river thicket]

It would be cool if Wally tps us to Tau

[north jolt]

I just liked the way they played into the main narrative and built up to the big sentient threat. Especially the second even where a whole dang coded messag from the Lotus was thrown into the mix

[sage moat]

i love tau's current place in the lore and i don't think it would be smart to go to tau

[river thicket]

But why

at some point people are going to beg for it

[tall echo]

Well, the nora interviews leading up to witw are archived

[sage moat]

because ballas is insane

[north jolt]

Part of me kinda hopes they bring back a similar event for if and when we face off against Wally, but another part of me wants them to also do something more narratively interesting and fulfilling then just "And Wally got blown TF up and the Tenno won, THE END!"

[river thicket]

Ballas was always insane so I don't thinkt hat changes much

[sage moat]

explicitly, that is the point. ballas is insane for trying to get to tau. getting to tau takes too much power to reasonably do.
IF we get to tau, id like for it to remain the idyllic paradise its talked up as

[north jolt]

That's nice, but its still not quite the same as experiencing it first hand imo

[river thicket]

I mean Tenno can quite literally level the whole galaxy using nova and we have reliquary drives on railjacsk so reaching it should not be that difficult

[tall echo]

We can literally get to tau rn, it'd just mean dooming half the system to catastrophic void storms

[sage moat]

i think, at least. i think the new war is stronger as a story if tau really is a really good place that the sentients made a paradise

[tall echo]

The zariman is fully capable of making the jump

[sage moat]

i did not know that!

[north jolt]

Unless we take the slow and steady method

[sage moat]

but its plugging the whole, right

[tall echo]

Yep

[sage moat]

man the origin system is really not in good shape right now

[river thicket]

I mean aren't there other tennos in lore so we should be able to go

[north jolt]

I mean we can just plug the hole with all the excess rubedo we have right?

[sage moat]

i hope that hole closes if we defeat wally its kind of just a constant existential threat. like are we meant to believe the future of the origin system is that just being that forever

[north jolt]

Simple answer is "yes"

[river thicket]

Or we just fix the way the sentients came to the origin system without going through the void

[tall echo]

The reason ballas' method of getting to tau was insane was because he wanted to destroy the origin system as a last resort due to the drifter's interference

[river thicket]

Ballas just a D1 hater 🥀

[sage moat]

i just dont trust DE tbh

to execute tau in a way where the conflict is like, notably lesser than the origin system. so that tau can remain a goal worth being insane about

[river thicket]

Why would Tau not have its problems?

[tall echo]

We would be "invading" the system likely populated by the machine race that hates our guts

[sage moat]

there are ways, idk if i trust DE with tem

[river thicket]

Like all the big sentients are literally dead so there is definitly a power vaccum

[sage moat]

for example, make the major conflict between sentient political factions!

[tall echo]

Keep in mind, the tau sentients have no way of communicating with the origin system ones

They'd think we still want to kill them

[sage moat]

this is true

[river thicket]

I don't think they would even try anyway

[tall echo]

Unless we bring hunhow or smth

[river thicket]

Didn't they cast him out

[tall echo]

Imagine just strapping hunhow to our orbiter and flying over there

[tall echo]

What? No‽

[river thicket]

Erra didn't want him or something during the new war

they think he is dead to and he wants to die also

[tall echo]

Yeah bc erra was in his rebel phase

[river thicket]

Erra is possessed by a goat now for all his trouble

[tall echo]

Hunhow was one of the top dogs of the sentients back then

[river thicket]

And the praghasa

[tall echo]

His wif, yes

[river thicket]

Wife got her soul snatched on the way here

[tall echo]

Nah, she's just the example of the effects of unprotected void exposure on sentients

Essentially braindead but still alive in a way

[river thicket]

I mean Erra says she is literally gone

would be cool if we could get her soul back or whatever happened

[tall echo]

Machines don't have souls

[river thicket]

though then again her body is probably burned up

[tall echo]

She was just damaged beyond saving

[river thicket]

They aren't machine though they are a mix of organic and machinery

[tall echo]

They are fully synthetic

The orokin were against them because of that

[river thicket]

Question why are Orokins aganist true Ai?

[tall echo]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[sage moat]

they watched too many sci fi movies

[lean garden]

Woah there why did someone say that we could level a galaxy with nova

[tall echo]

Waht

[river thicket]

Her thing is anti matter

[sage moat]

because power scalers need put down. this is a well known fact

[lean garden]

And?

[river thicket]

Technically she should be able to

[tall echo]

I thought nova's thing was worms

[lean garden]

yea if she can somehow produce the same amount of antimatter as the galaxy's matter, which we know she cant churn out in any feasible time

[river thicket]

If she made enough anti matter all the matter around would violently explode and atleast destroy a planet

[river thicket]

So its possible but a long time

[lean garden]

an unreasonably long amount of time

[river thicket]

I mean how much can she make in lore

[tall echo]

Eternity is a pretty long time

Look I had to make some music reference I haven't hit my quota yet

[lean garden]

https://tenor.com/view/legion-mass-effect-gif-11505461752391682171

"Does this unit have a soul"

-# The answer was always in the question

[tall echo]

Machines and humanoid brain-eating squids do not have souls

I stand by this

Someone took my chair

[proper barn]

That's not why.

The Orokin are against the tai cuz the tau like everyone else under the Orokin rule

Realized that the Orokin suck and rebelled.

[proper barn]

I mean cuz like the Infested can like infect computers and stuff and thus you. Also for the reason we see in the old and new war. The sentients just took control over all the Orokins like "mega Lazer of doom" like all their super villain weapons can just be taken over by the Sentients. We even see this in the New war where the Sentients can take over the Corpus drones.

[river thicket]

Oh okay that makes sense

[tall echo]

Thought evidently even cephalons aren't safe

[proper barn]

Well they had to try to attack them but they are tech

[north jolt]

Dont be machinist

[sly ibex]

AI was outlawed by the Orokin before Sentients were created. That's why the Corpus who made them was almost executed, because it was illegal.

There was mention of another true sapient synthetic lifeform they created nearly destroying them, which is why that law was made. Ordis mentions it in his fragments.

[normal mountain]

Wonder if we'll see that again...
or if we already have

[strange plinth]

i mean
sapient tenno, synthetic warframes, sorta.

[sly ibex]

It would certainly be cool to discover some hidden away and inactive that come online, or something. I do not know how they could possibly be as big a threat as the Sentients, though. Whatever they were, they couldn't have been as powerful if they were able to be beaten without us.

[tall echo]

Those aren't AI

And warframes are absolutely not synthetic

[lean garden]

eh, warframe's have been described as synthetic lifeforms

[strange plinth]

synthetic in that the foundry-built ones are 3d printed rather than transformed
but yeah i'm not saying its ai

[lean garden]

A source of anti-entropic radiation ideal for empowering synthetic lifeforms, most notably Archons and Warframes.

[tall echo]

Even the 3d prints are mostly using organic materials

[tall echo]

That just feels wrong to me

[lean garden]

Well they werent made from no mama's womb

[tall echo]

I don't think that's what determines organic vs synthetic

[hexed oxide]

Isn't organic something that happens by itself and synthetic something man made ?

[restive river]

I mean technically they both were and weren’t

[sly ibex]

Organic technically means carbon is part of its makeup, as far as life/materials go.

[strange turtle]

Varzia

[lean garden]

Well, for starters theyre two different categories already

[restive river]

The warframes we make are synthetic
The originals, eh
It’s unknown if the infestation is man-made and the originals used their original human counterparts for the design

[lean garden]

I don't think the use of "synthetic" is meant to be juxtaposed to "organic" here

[restive river]

Synthetic organic lifeform

[hexed oxide]

Assuming the infestation is not man made, imagine you shove a live lamb inside a laundry machine

That wouldn't make the machine organic

[restive river]

I have a feeling we may never get an answer on the infestation’s origin tbh

With it’s perception of time I kinda doubt it’s man-made by this point ngl
But
Anything is possible

[proper barn]

Yeah

[north jolt]

Isn't this why we came to the conclusion that the warframes themselves are effectively cyborgs? Humans infected with the helminth and then having a bunch of Orokin tech jammed into them

[north jolt]

I mean at this point, a parasitic life form evolving to consume and assimilate both organic life and technology wouldn't be the weirdest thing in the game. In a way kind of reminds me of newly evolved species of bacteria adapted to almost solely consuming plastics, specifically nylon and polyester

[restive river]

Before 1999 launched a part of my speculated on the infestation’s origins and that perhaps it’s a being that exists out of paradoxes, essentially bootstrapping itself, born from and of paradoxes
No defined actual origin
But now? Idk, if anything is deserving of a bootstrap it could be the infestation itself but I’m not so certain that could be the case now
Though there’s so many unknowns so who knows

I am
Adamantly against warframes being bootstraps though :p
the time difference between the Hex and the empire is too great for that to happen

[north jolt]

Personally I'm leaning towards it kinda just appearing one day, starting out lowkey or under the radar but gradually growing into the threat we're currently familiar with. Just a thing that, showed up one day without any clear origin, like a lot of diseases tbh

[tall echo]

You just described the techrot

[north jolt]

Yeah Sherlock, that's what we're talking about

[tall echo]

Yeah but. That's exactly how the techrot outbreak happened

Like almost word for word

[north jolt]

Okay?

[restive river]

I mean we don’t know where it sprung up before that, or if it even did

It did originate as testudo syndrome but like
Where did that come from?

[north jolt]

Personally I don't think we're going to get a "this is exactly where the techrot/infestation came from/ how it evolved" type of origin story

[restive river]

Diseases don’t just appear

[tall echo]

Tell that to the plague inc devs

[north jolt]

Well that's true, but that doesn't mean WE always fully understand how and why certain ones came about in the first place, least not with any high degree of certainty

[restive river]

Oh same
I think they’ll treat it akin to Wally in that the exact origin is better left a mystery
Plus with the infestation being a fellow eldritch entity it makes sense

[restive river]

Yee, hence why we may never know the exact truth

Heck testudo syndrome could’ve originated as a bio-weapon made by Libertatia

Circa
What
1987

[north jolt]

Kind of like how a certain IRL disease who's name Im not sure is blocked or not so Im just going to give a vague clue "It was very prominent in the 80's and both a world famous rock star and basketball player suffered from it". We have some likely theories as to where it came from and how it evolved to infect humans, but least afaik nothing that's for certain

[restive river]

Nah that’s too far fetched
It’d make a neat game I bet though

[strange plinth]

was that the bioweapon of '87

[tall echo]

Was that the b-

[restive river]

LOL

I need Markiplier to play Warframe again

[tall echo]

I need game theory to make a non-sponsored wf vid

[restive river]

I don’t

[north jolt]

Also, considering the theme of flesh and machine fusing together, is this a intentional reference to Tetsuo: The Iron Man? or even Tetsuo from Akira? (I ask cause the names "Testudo" and "Tetsuo" sound similar to me)

[restive river]

I would prefer they not touch wf again

[restive river]

🤷‍♀️

[tall echo]

Testudo is a word

[restive river]

Testudo means turtle iirc

[north jolt]

Full of wisdom today aren't we :p

[tall echo]

I feel like the main issue was the sponsor thing, they only made the video for money

[restive river]

He got that wisdom precept in the email recently

[strange plinth]

game theory lost a decent amount of my trust w/ the hollow knight thing
what'd they do with warframe?

[tall echo]

Fell out of bed today eh

[restive river]

I mean I’m just not a fan of game theory for mostly personal reasons
So

[restive river]

They lost mine with animal crossing

[north jolt]

I don't think I ever watched a Game Theory video tbh, except for maybe the Pyro one ages ago

[restive river]

Also just
People taking their theories as facts and not theories :p

[tall echo]

Just really poorly explained some things and got other things completely wrong

[lean garden]

which is redonculus because he literally tells you its just a theory, a game theory

[north jolt]

I also never played Hollow Knight

[restive river]

When they apply actual scientific reasoning or calculate real-world things to try and get an answer it’s okay
But
Sometimes it’s just. Nothing,

[strange plinth]

ah, same as most youtube lore stuff?

[restive river]

EXACTLY

There’s only one loretuber I trust

[lean garden]

tbf we knew alot less then than we do now, and he didnt have much to work on, nor had the indepth knowledge at the time

[north jolt]

TBF people get really attached to even bad theories cause psychologically it's better then having no answers or very vague ones

[tall echo]

There's exactly none I trust

[lean garden]

cue a "What if wally made the operators as part of a deal with ballas"

[north jolt]

I'm a little guilty of this myself ||I still don't trust that the Entrati we see post crash is truly him, but only time will tell for sure||

[lean garden]

Yes I have seen that before, no the argument wasnt the slightest bit convincing, and had little to no internal logic

[north jolt]

Now that's just extremely silly

[lean garden]

like I'm not even saying that this is an illogical theory in the face of the facts, I'm saying that immanent critque was having a field day

like even if we were to assume that every premise that person's argument had was true, it didnt even survive itself

[restive river]

Gray: 😭

[tall echo]

What crash

[north jolt]

go back to bed

[restive river]

cue a “these characters smiled they’re wally”

[tall echo]

Eh, doesn't count as a loretuber

[lean garden]

I've also seen some of that before, although a crackhead started pulling in details and started claiming counterpoints as evidence by heavily misconstruing what the counterpoints mean

[tall echo]

Not yet

[restive river]

They’re the most accurate loretuber
No theories just facts with sources

[lean garden]

like a critical component was "Albrecht is a sleeper agent guiding the tenno to give wally more of what he wants"

to which many brought up "was getting his bum handed to him twice part of what he wants"

[tall echo]

Tbf I haven't watched any of the videos yet so I can't trust or distrust

[lean garden]

and the response was "its to bait the operator to make many connections and wally will sever them all"

[restive river]

We literally use a message of love FROM Albrecht to Loid against Wally 😭

[tall echo]

No like. The zariman crash? What other crashes are there?

[lean garden]

they did not have an answer for that

[north jolt]

I think I vaguely know what conversation you're talking about but tbh I don't really remember any details about the crackhead's arguments

[lean garden]

wasnt in this server if thats what you were thinking

[north jolt]

Oh you was serious? I mean the vehicular crash where Rasalka/Wally gets injured and Entrati urges us to shoot them?

[restive river]

Of course they didn’t
Cause their crack theory is wrong lmao

[lean garden]

there are certain aspects that held some merit, but the argument itself wasnt particularily convincing

[tall echo]

Oh that. The most forgettable part of the quest to me somehow

[restive river]

I mean Entrati speaks to us about the whole
Having love thing in the finale

[north jolt]

"Entrati"

[lean garden]

They claimed hard evidence in the fact that when entrati appears in the reactor the sfx gutteral growl is heard

therefore it cannot be entrati

[restive river]

I think we’re def past the “which one is which” phase for the most part
Yes Wally can look like anyone but we must also analyze the actions themselves

[lean garden]

but like...

[restive river]

No that was
Definitely him cause it’s literally about having a power to fight against Wally

[lean garden]

Why would albrecht hand us the key to kick wally's bum for the 2nd time

[north jolt]

I have my doubts but I'm like, 50/50 on it. Could be Entrati was just manipulating us to form a relationship with the Hex, could be Wally playing 4D chess for some nefarious scheme

[restive river]

Literally why tho

[lean garden]

I mean sure, youre more than welcome, but lets just say the crackhead was simulteanously putting albrecht up as an active agent and a sleeper agent at the same time

[north jolt]

Cause like, what-if scenario, but what if we DID just, let the reactor explode and the Hex die? what would Entrati's plan be then? :p

[candid elm]

Not to mention giving the drifter a chance to create an even stronger time loop to keep wally out AND the memories of the hex get to stay

No way albrecht is wally least the one from the hex quest

[lean garden]

He tells us how to beat wally because he's a sleeper agent, but actively uses wally's stuff?

[strange turtle]

https://tenor.com/view/duviri-warframe-dominus-thrax-begin-again-spiral-gif-17147585142359123507

[north jolt]

That's not evidence for anything btw, just something I wonder

[restive river]

Wally is literally taking Duviri because of what happened in 1999
Things didn’t go his way so he’s retaliating

[lean garden]

I mean... thats what happened in the Hex Quest

[restive river]

There’s 4D chess and then there’s Wally clearly being emotional and throwing a tantrum

[strange plinth]

same as it was otherwise.
he got what he needed from 1999, but he needed us to do something there, which is where the whole 'your heart needed to grow, same way it always does' bit comes in

[lean garden]

Albrecht entrati gets to escape, which is why you dont see him in the finale

[candid elm]

I think he means what no drifter didn't make a time loop?

[lean garden]

loop was already there so

[north jolt]

But it was unintentional on our part. I mean like, what if the drifter JUST went along with the supposedly fake plan to allow the reactor to blow up in order to harness that "spark"

[lean garden]

Drifter didnt need to make nothing

[candid elm]

The year long loop, not the day loop albrecht had

[lean garden]

well, then entrati escapes

[lean garden]

even loid says albrecht was the one who extended it

[candid elm]

...where?

[strange plinth]

email at the end of Hex

[lean garden]

Drifter,

I can make no sense at all of these readings. Your site of temporal injection has somehow shifted. Your loop now encompasses the entire year of 1999.

Albrecht's interference is to blame, no doubt. What does he feel you need more time to achieve? He surely must have given guidance, however cryptic!

I can offer one service, at least. I discovered a clandestine blueprint among Albrecht's personal effects, for a warframe so secret it was never named. It is yours.

—Loid

[candid elm]

Huh, guess I'll have to re read it

My bad then

[strange plinth]

my main thing against that is the hand slam + duviri spiral
we've seen that in duviri, we know drifter can have that power as they use it to restart duviri during that quest
the cinematic for starting the duviri paradox shows that it isn't necessarily tied to the throne, as thrax slams his fist in the middle of a field and it still resets
why make a big point out of the drifter's hand slam if it was just albrecht adjusting the loop, i guess

[candid elm]

Maybe it needed a jump start?

[lean garden]

some would argue its for visual representation

[candid elm]

Like, the reactor wasn't enough by itself to get more then a days loop, but drifter with "void magic" got a Jumpstart to get the year going, then...idk albrecht did his own brand of "void magic"

[strange plinth]

it needed power, yeah. because the reactor's explosion powered it before, and we stopped it
but if we're powering it, why couldn't we be the one to extend it?

[lean garden]

Its is possible to reconsile and suggest that this is albrecht's interference, by pushing drifter to extending the loop

[lean garden]

but those who argue this would hunt you down lol

more questions for the lore panel at tennocon

[north jolt]

Okay so Ill admit the reasons why I have my doubts are kinda vague but long winded, but Ill try to keep them concise. First, at the end of the Whispers quest we see Wally monologuing on that chair while picking apart a Lotus flower and having a near perfect clone of Entrati standing next to him. He's not talking to anyone in particular during this scene (and I think the Lotus flower is symbolically significant too, just not confident for what), so why show us this? To me it feels like foreshadowing or some kind of warning to not trust things at face value going forward. Second, going back to the crash scene, I do believe the Entrati urging us to shoot Rusalka/Wally IS him, but after that? It just seems weird to me that Wally, who's main goal is to get a hold of Entrati, would whisk them both away after regaining his strength, only to allow Entrati to just return unscathed? Like Im not going to lie he literally had Entrati right there for the taking and he basically just let him walked off? Also (and I'm not the only one to put this particular theory forward) the whole "Loving the Hex" thing could just be a ploy by Wally himself, because if the REAL plan of the REAL Entrati was to let the reactor go off to harness that "spark", then preventing that from happening would be in Wally's interest to do so, and so he could be manipulating us in a way to where we are less likely to allow that to happen in the first place. IE 4D chess.

Now, just to reiterate before I get @ to death, THIS IS ONLY A THEORY/SPECULATION and I've seen counter arguments to all of this, but I still have my doubts and suspicions

[tall echo]

Problem: 1999 isn't the drifter's creation like duviri is

[strange plinth]

i would say that's what the interference was yeah
play up the villain so that we're going to make friends to spite him, shoot us so we're going to do the thing that we've always done close to death: loop it.

[strange plinth]

true
i've tied the looping thing to any timeloop rather than just duviri

[lean garden]

Ok just to check for your own logical consistency:

Is albrecht an active or sleeper agent?

[candid elm]

Maybe sleeper? He had the monolouge about "was it I who escaped, or...the other?

[north jolt]

Tbh I don't know. I think he's still alive? somewhere. If my suspicions are true then the Entrati we see AFTER the crash is just a Wally clone, but that would be a big if

[candid elm]

Maybe it was the other who escaped

Albrecht is still trapped in his diving bell thing, his conscious linked to this puppet body

[north jolt]

I like to think the real Entrati is a bit too cunning to be easily manipulated by Wally, in the same way that Rusalka was at least but I dunno

[lean garden]

after the car crash? Then the whole "tf was wally doing with albrecht in the interrogation room lol" is irrelevant for consistency's sake

[tall echo]

The bell broke

[candid elm]

Wasn't it the cavias who broke?

I thought albrecht only shattered it as he was escaping

[tall echo]

The logs are also very clear that albrecht made it out and he just got extremely paranoid for no reason

[north jolt]

Actually now that you mention it, what WAS Wally doing in there besides just messing with Entrati? and if Wally could just spirit him (and the Drifter) away at any time

[tall echo]

Nope

The bell breaking is what initiates all the unfortunate events

[candid elm]

Ah

[lean garden]

which might suggest wally didnt spirit entrati away, and that was entrati skedaddling at the same time as wally perhaps?

[strange plinth]

ig that bit needs more evidence in either direction
afaik, there's nothing explicitly saying the drifter's loop ability is tied only to duviri, and nothing explicitly saying it isn't
apart from this one scene, which is evidence towards any loop if the drifter is manipulating the loop rather than albrecht, which is the whole.. point of this debate.

[north jolt]

Maybe but the game sure did make it look like he got whisked away by his biggest fan. Maybe for story reasons (a kind of red herring) that was intentional, but still has me suspicious but also slightly confused now

[candid elm]

Why does wally even want albrecht? Is it cause hes the only person who knows where the original finger is?

[tall echo]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[north jolt]

Basically Wally hates the Orokin and Entrati is both the last surviving one (not counting Nihil or the rest of the Entrati family) but also THE one that basically spawned Wally into existence in the first place

They have a very special but unfortunate relationship

[strange plinth]

the orokin took from wally, and albrecht was the one that "allowed" it
the whole.. finger(s) getting cut off, taken and studied thing

[candid elm]

I see that makes more sense

[lean garden]

I have a fun theory for you

[candid elm]

Probably both tho, since the finger getting cut off locks off a lot of walls power too, smth about having to experience linear time?

[tall echo]

Well, it's never stated that that's why wally is hunting albrecht

[north jolt]

NGL for all the trouble its causing, I say we just hand Albrecht over in exchange for Wally effing off forever. He likes making deals anyways right?

[lean garden]

#lore-discussion message

[tall echo]

Do not trust a devil to keep his word

[candid elm]

Na cause that'll eventually end up in wally learning the location of his finger, then he just have to deal with him again, maybe even at full power this time

[lean garden]

and always bet on the man with the golden fiddle

[north jolt]

TBF he's kept his word better then we have so far :p but I'm joking anyways

[north jolt]

Exactly

[candid elm]

I mean he DOES keep his word from what have seen

Just genies it a bit lying by ommission and whatnot

[north jolt]

Also I think Tagfer would be down for that arrangement

[candid elm]

"I said I'd save them, never said anything about you"

[strange plinth]

not explicitly, no
but based on wally's monologue during the hex, and that albrecht seemingly didn't tell anyone else (ballas or others that should reasonably know about an entity in the void) about encountering wally, it seems like that's the only point that the orokin could've taken something from him
beyond that, some other personal vendetta? dunno

[candid elm]

The orokkn knew somthing was in the void, they could feel it/hear it during kuva rituals

[tall echo]

Not to mention various horrors would literally emerge during them

[tall echo]

P sure he does tell people but no one ever encounters him again (and returns sane or aware enough to tell)

[candid elm]

I think its why he invented the vitrium

Or whatever the eye things are called

[tall echo]

One letter off, close enough

[graceful swan]

And Scrap tried to say he isn’t Grammar Police

[tall echo]

Eh

[lean garden]

well clearly scrap isnt the Grammar Police, theyre the Spelling Police

[strange plinth]

never spoke about and never seen again

[tall echo]

Well then

[woven coyote]

Well they still got the fingers, and knew to have bodyguards while doing kuva rituals within the circulus

So they knew something had to be there right?

[tall echo]

Probly

[restive river]

I’m back from my therapy
What’s happenin

[strange plinth]

being aware vs knowing what it is are different, though
just had a thought tho
did- did the fingers look like albrecht's? because wally was using his form during all that

[tall echo]

Fingerbones

[restive river]

Ah yes
I hope we get to see the og fingers in the next part of this arc

[stiff fable]

I still think it's the Unum

[restive river]

Since it seems what’s next is Wally’s retaliation for 1999

[stiff fable]

It just works

[restive river]

You think she has one or all of the ogs

I would
Kill for unum lore this arc

[stiff fable]

Are there more than one?

[tall echo]

Quoting godd howard of all people

[restive river]

And with the princess mirror story I need it

[stiff fable]

Like Wally's just missing the one finger

[restive river]

Apparently???

[strange plinth]

yonta mentions "originals"

[tall echo]

Love how koumei just went nowhere in terms of lore

[stiff fable]

https://tenor.com/view/geesehoward-geese-fatalfury-gif-75975976665601012

But huh this is an interesting thought

[woven coyote]

Yonta and albrecht use plural for fingers

Albrecht says digits, yonta says originals

[stiff fable]

That's odd

[tall echo]

"Look this frame has power over fate it can change events"
"Is it gonna do anything important?"

[stiff fable]

I mean no one Warframe is ever going to tie into the main plot in an ongoing way

[woven coyote]

Funniest bit is none of what we know about koumei really confirms she can change fate

[stiff fable]

I mean if she changes fate before it happens does it matter at all

[restive river]

Umbra…

[woven coyote]

Her powers are more about dealing with whatever she gets from her dice fate

And her story just states she was around when stuff happened

[restive river]

Though you said ongoing and once his story was told that was that

[stiff fable]

Exhibit A

[woven coyote]

So nothing concrete about her directly changing fate

[restive river]

I still wanna go on a void expedition like Xaku’s original parts did

[graceful swan]

Umbra got 1 quest then became a gameplay thing like every single quest frame

[restive river]

Koumei may not change fate but she sure is fine

[stiff fable]

It's mostly stuff like Omamori I think. She can turn a possibility into certainty, but she can also discard a possibility

[restive river]

Stalker is probably the most lore relevant frame I guess

[strange plinth]

i could see a void expedition being possible in upcoming content tbh

[restive river]

I’m begging for void expeditions and an expansion to our void abilities

Give me mixing requiems for different effects

[woven coyote]

Thats hardly changing fate tho, its like fate told you to do this to get x, or just draw again

[restive river]

I’d also be down for more operator/drifter updates in general
Like
More weapons for our tenno please

Especially since we may have to fight more directly without our frames

[woven coyote]

All those people holding on to hope for operator lightsabers

[stiff fable]

Moddable amps

[strange plinth]

give us a new set of amp pieces to fight over

[restive river]

Also like
We have to be getting vessels at some point???

[tall echo]

Wat

[restive river]

I want void gauntlets
Let me punch things

[stiff fable]

lol not unless they massively improve the Operator's movement abilities

[restive river]

I meant fun not fine 😭

Auto correct why

[tall echo]

We have those

[restive river]

For the operator?

[tall echo]

Tbh I agree with you and autocorrect

[restive river]

Or drifter
Either or
This is why I usually just say Tenno :p

[restive river]

[tall echo]

Oh. Nah

[graceful swan]

Stalker is the only frame to have lore in 2 quests

[restive river]

I really like my Koumei fashions
I got Koumei Ki’teer
Red strings of fate
And girl in a raincoat

[tall echo]

I got basic scrap fashun

[restive river]

And we still can only pilot him in Duviri 😔

[graceful swan]

He no like people in his mind

[tall echo]

I gotta start getting more creative with my fashionframe

[restive river]

I’d love a frame that’s got an incarnon form too tbh
Like
we imagine it and then upgrade it

[restive river]

His alt self doesn’t seem to have a problem with it

[tired knoll]

man i love the racist riven mod exists

[strange plinth]

quincy would have a field day with that one considering how he reacted to existing incarnons

[tall echo]

Sevagoth 2.5(???)

[restive river]

It’s not even just riven mods that are racist its all bane ones 😭

This is totally why I refuse to use bane mods

[tall echo]

I just don't have space for them

[restive river]

I mean
Grendel eats people… grendel incarnon when

[restive river]

Same

[tired knoll]

i would grind sevagoth but i only like grinding with a person and no one grinds sevagoth 😔

[restive river]

Nor do I want to make space for them

[graceful swan]

New War made his alt self a homie for a bit

[restive river]

The duviri stalker?

[graceful swan]

Yeah

[tired knoll]

can grendel eat sevagoths shadow in pvp?

[strange plinth]

are those two even in conclave?

[restive river]

Simulacrum:

[tired knoll]

i mean the

yeah that

[tall echo]

The Conclave

[strange plinth]

i didn't even know you could have multiple people in simulacrum ngl

[tall echo]

-# gonna make teshin's face concave

[restive river]

Love how we got a new pvp mode that was immediately abandoned
They tried ig

[tired knoll]

https://tenor.com/view/scared-heavy-creepy-sir-space-cow-gif-19500873

[graceful swan]

https://tenor.com/view/teshin-conclave-warframe-better-name-pending-bnp-gif-19402310

[tired knoll]

WHAT

[tall echo]

-# You saw nothing

[tired knoll]

bro got concalved

[stiff fable]

If we're talking about cursed Warframe statements, you are now aware it is appropriate to call Grendel "Commander Vore"

[strange turtle]

Need

[restive river]

yesssss

[opal tide]

I have a theory about warframe

If the man in the wall wanted to enjoy the chaos and uncertainty wouldn't he want to see it on a galactic scale instead of 1 system

Theory is he has done it outside the origin system however he's completely destroyed or corrupted the rest of the galaxy and any attempts to exit the origin system are met with him because beyond the origin system is just his own corruption and to introduce it to the origin system would end the game too early

Some proof behind this is when ballas used the big ship to consume sols sun to reach tau the reason it didn't open to tau but to wally is because tau was already destroyed

And as he had done this game so many times he decided to take some risks with it why he allowed the drifter to save lotus and the operator because he likely saw the same situation and it ended the game too early for him

If anyone has some things to poke into it I am open to corrections

[strange plinth]

he opened a portal to the void to send himself to tau via the void
wally just flew out of it once that was no longer going to happen

[tall echo]

Nothing so far suggests that that's wally's motivation
All void portals go to the void, believe it or not

[opal tide]

Yeah all void portals go to the void but beyond the portals outside the origin system what if there is no galaxy just the void because the orokin would've been smart enough to find a safer way to travel beyond origin if there was a way right?

[strange plinth]

they sent the sentients to Tau and they built a solar rail there
though the origin side was destroyed during the old war
granted, those sentients have also been silent since the old war

[opal tide]

Does that support or disprove theory?

[strange plinth]

says that tau existed at the time sentients were sent
unknown why they've gone quiet, though
so its both, i suppose

[opal tide]

They could've gone there but because their only objective was to build the solar rail they didn't decide to check tau properly existed

[strange plinth]

we have info on the sentients existing in Tau for a while from some lotus archon hunt dialog

[opal tide]

Ah okay

Perhaps wally uses tau as a lure?
Because for any empire that's conquered their home system the next goal would be a new system and what better lure than a system that's a trap

[strange plinth]

eh
wally also seems to have originated from albrecht's original breach into the void
rell has been preventing him from doing much for a long time as well

[opal tide]

He could've existed outside the origin system who's to say albrecht was the first to meet him when with the theory he could've had thousands of other meetings with other empires and learning how each acts and rell could've only been preventing him from doing anything within the origin system not the whole galaxy

[sly ibex]

The flaw with the theory is that it would mean The Man in the Wall has been in real space all this time, but we know he has been trapped in the Void until the end of The New War.

[proper barn]

Well he was trapped by Rell for a 1000 years as well.

[sly ibex]

Not to mention that he would have already done whatever he wanted to in the Sol system.

The Void was researched and found to be a literal void (nothing there at all) until Albrecht found a way in. That's when everything seemed to change.

He wasn't fully physically in our universe (not just our galaxy) until The New War's conclusion. Before that, just however many fingers of his there are. Not enough for him to be truly there.

[graceful swan]

Sentients in Tau didn’t care about the war wouldn’t you go quiet if people talking to you kept doing something you didn’t like?

[vale slate]

Sorry to ah intrude but does anyone know what this is referencing too?

[proper barn]

I assume some Corpus company.

[lilac aspen]

Yeah I think the Sentients at Tau kinda just
Stopped caring about the origin system
Especially if they heard that the Orokin are dead so that means there’s no immediate threat that wants to head to/knows of Tau

[proper barn]

Well the solar Rail to the tau system (at least the origin side) is destroyed has been since the old war.

[vale slate]

Huh interesting

[stiff fable]

I think it's slightly more likely that something terrible happened at Tau

[proper barn]

Eh

[stiff fable]

It wouldn't have gone silent the way it has otherwise

Radio signal from Tau would be reaching the Origin System

[proper barn]

We could argue about that.

[lilac aspen]

They clearly have the microphone unplugged

Dave accidentally snagged the cord

[proper barn]

I would say the tau sentients are even more removed then the current origin system is from the Orokin.

[lilac aspen]

Do you think they just
Thanos about every day now?

Watch the sun set everyday
Make a mystery soup

[stiff fable]

Tbh I'm thinking it's more Mad Max sentient edition

Surviving Sentients splintering and fighting over resources

[lilac aspen]

I mean
Why do they have to fight for resources
My sentient in Tau you are the resources

[stiff fable]

They still need inputs

He who controls the water...

[lilac aspen]

They went there to terraform it to make it habitable so it sounds like they don’t need to eat and stuff

[stiff fable]

They can't make stuff ex-nihilo

[lilac aspen]

It’d be bad to make my terraforming robots need resources to live

Especially ones that can adapt to everything aside from the Void

[stiff fable]

They can change something's state, reshape it and safely convert matter into energy

[stiff fable]

I mean that's why the Orokin built the void weakness into them

To turn a pool of arsenic into potable water something has to intake the arsenic

[quick wadi]

Was that a designed weakness?

I always assumed that was just like an oversight or something they just didn't think about

[strange plinth]

I tried to catch my breath and speak, “The crossing to the Tau system is perilous. Adaptation and replication are the only way a terraforming journey can be made. They will build an interstellar rail as they travel, they will adapt to the host planet and prepare it for our arrival. They will save you.”
Tuvul peered down at me, “And when it completes its task, what will prevent it from turning against us, as the Seven Principles say?”
“The flaw.”
Tuvul’s eyes narrowed, “The flaw?”
“The Void is poison to them. Once they have reached Tau they will be marooned there. To travel the rail here would destroy them. Whatever the risks, the Origin system will be-”
from the detron crewman synthesis, about the sentients' origin

[quick wadi]

Ah, well that's very orokin of them too

Y'know idk about these orokin guys.

I think they might be up to something

[proper barn]

Well they can't now. We killed all of them.

Ruiling classes are bad says warframe in basic but true stance.

[quick wadi]

We smacked em upside the head

[proper barn]

No.

Just killed most of them During the victory ceremony they held for us beating the sentients.

[woven coyote]

"This is a celebration but not for you"

[humble sierra]

What was the first dream?

[woven coyote]

I dont think there is one

Or rather it would just be normal sleep/dream

These are margulis quotes btw

[granite thicket]

Hey guys I’m asking here because no one answered in general, so op and drifter were the same person up until the zariman void collision right? So that must mean that op was also lonely and absorbed in the books. So would op and thrax get along? Or do you guys think that op is too old for thrax now, or would thrax remember what drifter did and not trust him?

[proper barn]

Well up until the deal.

[stiff fable]

Ish. It's not like the Operator was ALWAYS lonely and absorbed in books.

[strange plinth]

operator and drifter were the same up until the deal yeah
operator likely would've read the tales of duviri as well, though not as much as drifter did
they'd know thrax but not to the point drifter did

[proper barn]

Also the Drifter did get along with thrax. Thrax was their creation he just got upset when the Drifter outgrew them.

[stiff fable]

They had a full, more or less healthy emotional range, they were just a teenager on a colony ship that was tearing itself apart before it even did the jump.

[proper barn]

I think we are literally gonna be allies with Thrax.

Cuz thrax's realm is like a great place to fight Wally In the Void.

[granite thicket]

Yeah but I’m more talking about the age. Is op too old for thrax, or would they still be friends now that op is a little older? I guess we can’t say for sure since we don’t know when drifter wanted to leave…

[stiff fable]

I mean the Thrax we know literally was the Operator's action figure

[proper barn]

Okay you are using operator and Drifter interchangeably too much.

[stiff fable]

With fist-slamming action etc etc

[proper barn]

The Drifter and the operator only separate after the deal.

Specifically.

[humble sierra]

Yes the deal was the turning point. Before that their pasts were likely completely identical. The split was because Operator was given Void Powers to save themselves, while the Drifter was not-- somehow, they were left stranded on the Zariman, alone. "I saved them, never said I'd save you".

[humble sierra]

Just imagining a tv commercial for a Thrax action figure now