lore-discussion

[restive river]

Ah, the copies we mass produce

[tall echo]

As in the ones we build in the foundry

[restive river]

I think the difference there is we aren’t making new warframes, just copies from the past

[graceful swan]

This is a comment in the other server

[tall echo]

Well I'm also guessing the orokin used humans for all of theirs (copies included) while we don't

[restive river]

I mean synthetic or not they are perfect copies

[tall echo]

HA

Good bot

[true bobcat]

Ordis is pleased to help the Operator!

[graceful swan]

I think what they are missing is 1 and 2 in that example are sort of merged

[tall echo]

But they aren't

[graceful swan]

1 is the failed sentient ones that were killed
2 is Tenno controlled and eventually synthesised if they weren't already

[restive river]

All the gen 1 frames were hunted down and destroyed

[normal mountain]

*most

[restive river]

they got as many as they could

[velvet cradle]

The only major difference is that the transferance bolt that is integrated to let tenno control them

I agree that a gen 2 is one that has a transferance bolt regardless on how it is made

[restive river]

Dante went out a different way
Kullervo was thrown into the void

[velvet cradle]

Stalker and jade went into hiding if you count them as gen 1

[strange plinth]

yea they'd be gen 1 i think
one of jade's feathers mentions an operator but it doesn't seem like she was intended for tenno control from the start

[graceful swan]

Nothing actually states if Jade was an actual gen 1 or not other Jades could have been made beforehand all frames can get some level of sentience with enough emotion

She even got an Operator

[normal mountain]

Then there's Dagath (one of my faves)

She's arguably the first of her kind, but I don't think we know if she predated the Tenno or not

[velvet cradle]

Well, most of the old war era frames had some level of sentience thou most of it was very animalistic or primal as they mostly had one memory with strong (often negative) emotion that they are consumed with

Source: mostly how umbra is made in the sacrifice and the lines by ballas implying that the old war frames were broken and that the tenno were able to soothe the frames to be better controlled

Even Jade Shadows shows that the stalker's main focus was implied that he would see his wife again I think

[graceful swan]

All frames were made in the Old War

[normal mountain]

The memory feathers directly confirm this
Jade explicitly states that Ballas dangled the hope of seeing her again in front of Stalker

[velvet cradle]

I mean the ones made in the old war instead of using a BP to make one in the foundry

[strange plinth]

stalker didn't recognize jade until jade shadows
his devotion to the orokin and hate for the tenno are probably closer to what kept him sane, but prior to that, the promise of seeing her again was what kept him loyal

[tall echo]

The one memory thing was umbra specific

[somber obsidian]

Where did you find this?

[gray silo]

Made it up!

[somber obsidian]

😭

[stiff fable]

Late but: the ONLY Warframe that had a transference bolt was Umbra, so that Ballas could hold him down and mentally talk to him during the Warframe transformation. There is zero evidence that any other Warframes had one.

"First Generation" Warframe is a fan term for any frame that used to be a person, so Umbra and Jade and Stalker would all be 1st generation

[fallen oxide]

Ivara counts?

[stiff fable]

We don't know tbh

[fallen oxide]

I mean, from her levurian she reads much more " human " than a normal warframe

[stiff fable]

Most Leverian stories are about Warframes with Operators

[fallen oxide]

Oh

[stiff fable]

Best seen in Voruna's, where the Tenno finds their operator

[fallen oxide]

Is voruna and lavos the exceptions?

[stiff fable]

Voruna 100% had an operator, Lavos we don't know

[fallen oxide]

Must have been a terrible day for voruna's operator

[stiff fable]

Well they got to kill Tuvul so there were some good parts

[fallen oxide]

Yeah but having to kill 4 of your kubrows and using their heads in your shoulders doesn't sound very cool

But hey, killing tuvul would make me happy

[graceful swan]

Drusus just doesn’t care about the Operator aspect

[stiff fable]

....that's an actual insight, actually

[lean garden]

additionally late but the very fact that umbra had a "special" one implies warframes have transference bolts

cant have something "special" for its kind if its the only one for its kind

[fallen oxide]

Wait, is Dante an operator?

[restive river]

No

Dante didn’t have an Operator

[fallen oxide]

He was just a warframe that walked around being cool?

[restive river]

He was a gen 1 frame yes

[fallen oxide]

Huh, that's cool

[restive river]

Gen 1 frames were sapient and eventually went mad
Gen 2 frames were tenno controlled entirely

[fallen oxide]

Did Qorvex was ever controlled or did Albrecht left him for us to use in the future?

[restive river]

I doubt Qorvex was ever built til we came along

Albrecht just designed him for us
Which
Implies he didn’t hate an operator

Because we are his operator

[lean garden]

Ordis: "Uncertain if any Tenno has linked with this design. The Transference bolt seems different, but we cannot build this without more data."
There is not zero evidence that other warframes had transference bolts

[restive river]

@lean garden do you think the protoframes have bolts?

[lean garden]

Eh, not sure

I doubt they had one since they have autonomy

[restive river]

Except Arthur has that moment where he loses control of his hand and iirc it sounds like it isn’t the first time it’s happened
Still unsure if that was us or Albrecht though

I wish we could just get more on how the bolts work tbh

Cause in some situations they clearly aren’t needed but seemingly are for others??

[graceful swan]

Didn’t the PC show the now famous don’t be late quote right after?

[lean garden]

It was albrecht

[restive river]

Yup, which is why I’ve always believed it’s Albrecht but I know for some it’s been up in the air

[lean garden]

but also consider that thats not a function of a bolt

[restive river]

What is the function of the bolt exactly then :?

[lean garden]

This is where the idea of "XYZ Bolt" comes from

[graceful swan]

Considering we weren’t in 1999 yet I’d say it was definitely Albrecht unless it was us trying transference on him

Would be some super long distance transference though

[rotund tinsel]

Considering no matter how far away we are from our Warframe we can always shift back into it,it's not that far fetched I guess,in distance,but idk about time though

[restive river]

I’d def say it’s Albrecht too based off of what the message was

[restive river]

We literally utilize transference to time travel to 1999

[humble sierra]

Nah she was given a horse as a gift, but she loved it more than the ones who gave it to her, so they tried causing an accident to happen to kill the horse, but she was injured too, so they took her to Ballas to see if they could save her, and he made her a Warframe

[restive river]

Wasn’t the problem that she loved the horse enough to name it, not that she loved it more than them?

[stiff fable]

Drifter WAS in 1999 though, during Whispers we activate Arthur's Vessel and end up inside him during an earlier loop

This is off-screen stuff but basically between Whispers and The Hex Loid is trying to mess with the Vessels enough to send the Drifter to 1999 earlier than 10 minutes to midnight

Drifter and Albrecht both imply during The Hex that the loop has happened several times before, but that Wally's jumped in and taken control of it now

[humble sierra]

I wonder why Whispers has Arthur die in the subway, split off from the other Hex (who also probably died in other places)

I mean I guess they didn't know about the impending nuclear explosion but still

what was their goal? Did Entrati send them coordinates to the subway like he does in the main mission?

[restive river]

They were all split up to look for Entrati

Ofc the real answer is they didn’t have the designs and just wanted to tease the Hex but shhh

Like back then we knew about Aoi, but not what frame she was and Quincy, who was thought to be Volt for a time

It’s reasonable to assume they were all just split up in that iteration of the loop though, heck some of them may have already died by that point

[humble sierra]

I think people clocked Aoi instantly (at least in Whispers) because we can hear Mag's pull sound effect

Might not have been a launch thing though

Or actually could've even been there at TennoCon 2023

[restive river]

Yeah it just wasn’t confirmed is what I mean

Later we did get the pic of Arthur and Aoi together tho

This one :)

[humble sierra]

https://youtu.be/UgPjc1e1Ets?t=187

God I almost forgot how cool the 1999 reveal was

[restive river]

DE knows how to cook

[humble sierra]

The fact it was almost exactly how it ended up in the game too was amazing

[restive river]

I’m excited to see what the next chapter for Warframe will be while I am also entering a new chapter in my own life
So cool :)

[hexed oxide]

am i misremembering or did aoi not have those metal accent things on her hands before release ?

i swear i thought i saw she had her hands naked before reveal, thought it was like arthur and her missing the shoulder patches everyone has now

[humble sierra]

Pretty sure this is an unedited view of her first look

Omg I remember back when this was all we had for a while and people thought it'd just be Mag and Excalibur, with jokes about Volt being the motorcycle

Then they did a little teaser of Amir's hand sparking electricity

[restive river]

Well I just posted the earliest version of her design we had seen sk

[woven coyote]

tomorrow will be fun

[restive river]

I hope I’ll be awake enough to catch it :)

[stiff fable]

Just want to say, iirc they mentioned during an interview or something that they wrapped up Aoi's design pretty close to when they revealed her with that picture

[restive river]

Figured tbh, since Arthur’s design wasn’t even finalized yet lol

[stiff fable]

They knew that she was Mag and would be ethnically Japanese but nothing past that

[restive river]

Bro went through
What
2-3 more minor iterations?

[stiff fable]

so did the AK, safety OFF, Arthur

Excuse me, AX-52

but yeah warframe and ongoing design, name a more iconic duo that isn't bugs

[dire mountain]

Yeah arthur gloves and then the team patch, also the radio i think are the most noticeable things they added

[north jolt]

I always assumed it was just us doing, I guess trying to dig up info about 1999? using him to do a Google search?

[restive river]

Have you not read what he typed??

[north jolt]

Is that actually specified somewhere?

[restive river]

He isn’t searching up something, he’s typing out a message that his hand is being forced to write

[restive river]

You can see it in the cutscene?

[north jolt]

I dont remember

[restive river]

[Suddenly, blue energy envelops Arthur's right hand, and it seizes up in spasms. Arthur grips his wrist with his left hand, trying in vain to control it.]

Arthur: "Not again!"

[The possessed right hand drags Arthur over to a computer on the desk and uses the keyboard to open a blank text document and type out:]

UNDR MIRAS AVE
10 MIN
DNT B L8

[The blue glow ceases and Arthur regains control of his hand. He rubs it as if it is sore.]

It’s def Entrati, signature don’t be late

[north jolt]

I legit don't even remember seeing the screen during that cutscene

[restive river]

Go rewatch it then

[north jolt]

I mean I don't think you're lying

[barren jasper]

i remeber it bc i watched the tennocon demo 8 billion times

[tiny zenith]

I like how it brings up both the theme of right hands having weird things happen to them, and the Orokin having the ability to override Warframe control to an extent

[gloomy crescent]

Someone please explain the whole other protoframes thing, I’m talking the temple dude with the guitar, Frost, Nova, Minerva(Saryn)

I know about the hex already

[strange plinth]

what about them specifically? and how far have you gotten in their chats

[gloomy crescent]

Well no all I have seen are images of them

I just wanna know more about their stories

Is music the main thing about them?

Like killing bad guys and stuff

[strange plinth]

minerva (saryn) and velimir (frost) are looking for Neci Rusalka after her disappearance
kaya (nova) is trying to learn about the timeloop and potentially escape it
flare (temple) stands in defiance of viktor, and wants to know more about themself after their transformation

[gloomy crescent]

Oh nice! So after you complete the Hex, when do you get introduced to this story?

It sounds cool

[strange plinth]

they appear in the mall at rank 4 w/ the hex, but you can only talk to flare at that point. the other three can be interacted with at rank 5

[gloomy crescent]

Nice, ima start grinding out the bounties and stuff I need for standing

I want to experience the stories and stuff

[tall echo]

The "stories" happen in the KIM system

[proper barn]

Well nonbinary person.

The guitar goes by she/her though.

[proper barn]

Make sure to turn on "all conversations" in the settings if you haven't yet.

[gloomy crescent]

Roger that

[brittle siren]

I still don't understand what it do

[proper barn]

Okay so if you rank up in friendsmity without it on you would "lose" a lot of possible conversations from lower friendship ranks.

[brittle siren]

Ah I see

[high bay]

Power scaling: who wins, Bopp Bipp or Clem?

[graceful swan]

Bopp Bipp is literally a Grineer super Soldier made to battle Infested space ninjas why are you even asking

[high bay]

Because I am the funniest person on the planet

Now that I consider it, Clem absolutely cleans Bopp Bipp

[graceful swan]

Nuh uh

Clem got himself kidnapped and needed rescuing by a space ninja

Bopp Bipp fought a Space ninja and lived at least once

[brittle siren]

Crack theory: Soul Frame is just Dark Age in Warframe universe

Imagine it actually explore Infested lore and connect with Warframe

[graceful swan]

They already confirmed it will have mentions to Warframe but separate universe though

[brittle siren]

Oh ok

Ok Duviri getting spicy

[vagrant scroll]

omg I only just realised Rusalka's right arm is super long like an Orokin 💔

[graceful swan]

She lost an arm it’s unrelated to Orokin

[vagrant scroll]

yes but it being that long seems somewhat intentional

just an observation

[graceful swan]

Probably just prosthetics being surprisingly advanced

[steady trout]

Ok, prosthetics aside, she’s a conduit for the indifference and wrecking havoc in Duviri…that’s gonna cause some implications to the drifters loop power

[old dome]

drifter doesnt have any loop powers iirc

[past halo]

You know the minute the Duviri invasion happens I hope all of the Courtiers have something to say about it

[north ferry]

Wha?

[old dome]

1999 was already in a time loop when drifter arrived, thanks to albrecht. duviri is in a loop bc of thrax... drifter doesnt have any loop powers afaik.

[north ferry]

Those aren't mutually exclusive details.

[river tangle]

we go back to duviri again?

[restive river]

They have power over the 1999 loop and anyone who sits on the throne controls Duviri and its loop

[restive river]

Yupp

[astral sparrow]

Lore folks correct me if I'm wrong but is the infested a techno-organic virus that is made by effectively nano bots they influence the organic biology?

[restive river]

It was either Albrecht or the Drifter who extended the 1999 loop to the entire year
Either way Drifter took control away from Wally

[restive river]

Basically yeah

The Infestation spreads across the Origin System – a techno-organic parasite that attaches itself to natural and synthetic forms, slowly digesting the host subject and transforming it on a molecular level. Organic materials morph into new homogeneous organisms while harder, inorganic materials, like metals, will change structurally into a pseudo-organic substance that holds the characteristics of its previous forms.

[river tangle]

now the man in the wall have just impersonated dominus thrax it seems

[restive river]

What?

[river tangle]

"neci rusalka", sit on that throne?

[restive river]

He’s puppetting Russalka and taking over Duviri, Thrax is specifically asking for our help

[astral sparrow]

Thanks trying to win an argument over someone saying the Warframes are just flesh puppets with no robotic stuff what do ever.

[river tangle]

oh ._.

[river tangle]

yet there's little to no traces of metal in, or by itself somehow

[restive river]

It’s techno-organic
So it’s a technology that mimics organics to accomplish it’s parasitic goals of subsuming things

[proper barn]

There's also what used to be a person in them.

[proper barn]

Idk if that's true. Like infested is more advanced "techrot" like TECH is part I'd the name.

[wheat radish]

is this the best way to play techrot?

btw where can I see my relationship levels with the team? is it possible to see?

[proper barn]

On the message screen there's a button to see

[proper barn]

Oh you don't have the messages tab yet.

[wheat radish]

i do when i got into the back room computer

Thank you

i guess senging gifts in the way to improve it right? im neutral with all of them

[proper barn]

Just chatting

Is fine enough.

[smoky solstice]

ok so "neci" is still just wally. Honestly, idk how this even works, at first it was like wally was invading 1999 through her body, so the body is a separate thing from wally, but then it's like apparently it also just defies the laws of physics? so it's like how is she even in there
but the concept is really cool tbh, a nice little wally incursion into duviri as more of a minor-on-story update, a cool thing to go into as an extra happening in the story to keep us quenched

might get more lore on the initial wally incursion way back

if we get a minor quest with it, it would be kinda cool that you have a sort of followup on duviri since duviri can be done very early on in the story so you might not have much lore context of everything duviri which seems more important rn, although I assume if there was a quest, they would've mentioned it in the devstream

[humble sierra]

I think they mentioned a quest

There's a temporary event attached to this new part in Duviri

Similar to Jade Shadows

So a new quest that adds a new Duviri gamemode (where it's Warframe-only)

And then an event based on that gamemode

As for how much of Neci is still Neci, that's intentionally left unclear

They mentioned that since the Drifter invaded Hollvania, she's jealous and invaded Duviri

MITW is just feeding off her emotions and puppeteering her around

It's given her powers similarly to Albrecht's

[restive river]

Wdym similarly to Albrecht’s?

Albrecht doesn’t have void powers?

[humble sierra]

He can teleport and stuff

[restive river]

Russalka is specifically being puppeted by Wally

[restive river]

Yeah I
Don’t think that’s due to Wally

Wally hates Albrecht

[humble sierra]

Very weak in comparison to ours or Rusalka's, he's probably given himself that rather than being granted

But I'm just saying if Albrecht can teleport between locations I'm sure Rusalka, thanks to Wally's abilities, can also teleport from 1999 to Duviri

I mean he's already got a foothold in Duviri

[restive river]

I’m not so sure Albrecht has void powers, at most he’s using tech
The Orokin had a lot of insane tech
And Albrecht is the closest to a void expert

[humble sierra]

True

My main evidence for coming to that conclusion was the comic

[restive river]

But anyway
Yeah Russalka is being piloted by Wally who is taking over Duviri, likely due to him feeding off what’s left of her and a remnant of that jealousy

[restive river]

The Orokin have always done some weird stuff even without knowing of voidtongue

See whatever happened with Ordan

[hexed oxide]

is it just me who thinks they mixed up koumei and oraxia ?

oraxia would've fit as a jorougumo themed frame (threads of fate) and koumei for duviri (she has decrees)

really wanna see what they make of oraxia's lore

[lean garden]

Well, oraxia got them spiderthreads, probably where theyre going to link some strand of khra thing

When did they say the update is coming again?

[hexed oxide]

june ?

[restive river]

Yes June

[restive river]

Could be Wally made his go mad and is using her to weave new strands for him to tether?

[brittle siren]

Ballas VA is getting busy again

[restive river]

[brittle siren]

just realize that there are new murmur enemy

[restive river]

Spitters

We need Ear enemies now

And Noses

[brittle siren]

do we have eyes yet?

I mean as enemy

[hexed oxide]

thanks, i hate it 🥰

[restive river]

Yesn’t?

[brittle siren]

imagine wally boss fight name is "The Wall"

[sturdy arrow]

Who this? Found them in the Isleweaver Trailer

Looks like either A Jaw Sword or A Skana

[sturdy arrow]

What about Wally from Where’s Wally?

[brittle siren]

prob an npc?

[sturdy arrow]

I genuinely have no idea, but if it’s actually A Jaw Sword, that makes me think it is definitely A NPC.

[restive river]

Default Excalibur

[brittle siren]

oh

[stiff fable]

Dear God it really is lips

[sturdy arrow]

Patch notes: Enemies will now try to kiss you to give you A false sense of security

[brittle siren]

🦶 👁️ 🖐️ 👄

[stone jacinth]

why do those look like KISSABLE libs on Murmur??? i aint complaining

[smoky solstice]

yeah but it makes no sense for the actual neci to be jealous of this, like that would imply she's also some like eldritch being, because "owning" a year does not sound like something a commander would be so preoccupied by, not to mention the absurdity of a human being doing that. Basically, it's not something neci would say or feel. Which is why it seems like it's full on wally for this

like not only does neci know of duviri but also cares to invade it because she somehow had some insane amount of influence in 1999?

[lean garden]

well, we've long known that thats not the actual neci

hasnt been for a long time

[smoky solstice]

my point is that nothing's changed, it's still not really neci, neci is pretty much being someone wally can communicate to us through

[lean garden]

the viral couple aint gunna like this

"wheres our daughter"
"breaking into my house lol"

[smoky solstice]

true

[sturdy arrow]

Honestly, you’d think she’d be Indifferent =A

[smoky solstice]

you know, I just realised saryn is more of a toxin frame than a viral frame

so it's actually so cute, frost and saryn are together

cold + toxin creates viral 🙂

somehow that connection never clicked for me, that's so cute

[sturdy arrow]

She is A Fungal Frame???

[smoky solstice]

a fungus is not a virus is what I say to that

her abilities are like toxin and corrosive

but together with frost, she converts to a viral infection

[sturdy arrow]

Her first attack calls it Spores, now I’m no mathed potacian, but I thought spores were things mushrooms did?

[smoky solstice]

mushrooms are not viruses

idk what this is about tbh

[lean garden]

indeed, the viral couple

[smoky solstice]

and like minerva also is a raging alcoholic so she is also like perhaps literally toxic, with all of the TOXINS she's consuming

plays to the whole theme, all of this is so cool

[sturdy arrow]

You said she’s themed around toxins? Her first is Spores (Mushroom) and her fourth is Miasma (Poison)

[smoky solstice]

but idk how to connect velimir with cold

[woven coyote]

Other things can do spores too

[sturdy arrow]

Wait actually???

[smoky solstice]

her 3 inflicts toxin procs, her 1 inflicts corrosive procs, the miasma simply amplifies the 1

[woven coyote]

Iirc bacteria can

Theres some other stuff too but i am too tired to remember

[smoky solstice]

also her 1 augment gives corrosive damage but that's kinda connected to the first ability so

[sturdy arrow]

Seeing as she molts for her second, is she also A gecko frame?

[smoky solstice]

I mean she is mushroom themed for sure, she literally wears a mushroom hoodie, but my point is that all of this symbolizes toxicity, toxin, not a viral infection

which has nothing to do with mushrooms btw

[woven coyote]

But overrall saryn is themed after toxic things in general, not just fungi or snakes

[sturdy arrow]

O

[smoky solstice]

but still like how do I connect velimir like this

idk if I'd class his character as "cold"

[woven coyote]

He is cool tho

[smoky solstice]

I mean maybe, he is a cia operative, perhaps it's about him pushing it down

[woven coyote]

A cool chill dad

[humble sierra]

Maybe his song lyrics have more info

[smoky solstice]

hm I guess that works too

[sturdy arrow]

He is an ice guy that smokes, therefore likes to warm himself despite being the ice guy, he contradicts himself

Kaya proved time travel is possible, will Arthur and the bois do the same to get to Duviri to help?

[smoky solstice]

oh maybe the cold thing is about their relationship, because that's what the song seems to be about

like the cold in this case seems to symbollize perhaps hardships?

[sturdy arrow]

Song???

[smoky solstice]

below zero

[sturdy arrow]

You main Flair?

O

[smoky solstice]

that's the velimir song

oh actually

[humble sierra]

They all had a song I think

Maybe Veliminerva got theirs combined

[smoky solstice]

"when the night falls, you begin to freeze" so obviously like lower temperature but I think this means that when the hardships happen, she (or maybe he, someone's talking to him in the second person?) is down, perhaps due to relationship problems, they "freeze", maybe just like resign themselves
so the cold seems to moreso imply that resignation, not trying to fix the problem

and that does align with velimir

[humble sierra]

Bang on the money, sounds like solid symbolism there

[smoky solstice]

so hm maybe the song IS about him, the vocalist singing to him

yeah that's my head canon at least

[humble sierra]

The songs were confirmed to be about the Roundtable frames

[smoky solstice]

sure but like I wasn't sure if the song was the vocalist kinda singing sort of on behalf of the protoframe, so like the "I'm all you need" thing is velimir saying that, aka it's his feelings towards presumably minerva

but it seems more likely to not be the case

and it's the singer kinda just crapping all over velimir

but actually wait it would have to be from minerva's perspective

due to the "I'm all you need below zero degrees" part

would minerva have that opinion about velimir

[humble sierra]

Alive Again seems to be Minerva's track

[smoky solstice]

would it make sense

[smoky solstice]

yeah exactly, that too

[humble sierra]

Or maybe Flare's?

Because it's about losing control

[smoky solstice]

actually alive again is someone singing to minerva as well

from the very first line "In the venom that you are"

and also obviously the "And you could come close, but don't touch, infecting all of me"

would it make sense to be from velimir's perspective then?

reading the lyrics, I'm really not sure

like "If I could lose control, fall back in, if it makes you feel alive again" what could this be refering to in that case

[humble sierra]

Nah I think just because the lyrics are occasionally in second-person, it doesn't mean they're literally from someone else

[smoky solstice]

I mean my first theory was about that being minerva herself kinda speaking to this other side of her

and I still think it makes a lot of sense but tihs seems fun too

[smoky solstice]

I think it's very intentional, none of them contradict with one another, they make sense internally

[sturdy arrow]

https://tenor.com/view/kronk-gocha-covered-covered-got-you-got-you-covered-gif-17339871402813408887

[sturdy arrow]

My guy you sound like A conspiracy theorist with all the red dots, the, “Venom,” is the infestation

[smoky solstice]

exactly

would fall under my second theory

was just asking if it made sense for velimir

[sturdy arrow]

Just checked the lyrics and it’s definitely Flair’s worries about Lizzie.

[smoky solstice]

...this is minerva's song

flare's is lamenting the days

because why would flare WANT to make her feel alive again

at this point in the story he's doing everything he can to get rid of her

there's intimacy in these lyrics

[sturdy arrow]

Crash Course is Ollie’s song, right??? Just checking

[smoky solstice]

yeah

[humble sierra]

Yeah hence no lyrics I'm guessing

[smoky solstice]

it has lyrics but they're mostly ad libs so idk if that counts

[sturdy arrow]

To me, it just sounds like, “I am going to sing you A song, and you are gonna sit down and enjoy it.”

[onyx compass]

Just how much does Kullervo hate Ballas?
Also why does his hold also exist in the sorrow and fear spirals? Sorrow I can understand but fear is interesting to me. Maybe he's afraid of his guilt or something.
Also Kullervo Apostate is such a cool name for a very awesome skin, I could yap more about it but this message has enough questions already

[proper barn]

also envey? i mean Kullevro hates ballas cuz ballas is a little tiny cockroach man that kullevro tried to appease (kullevro even loved ballas) but Ballas was like "you didn't do the thing i wanted".

oh "Anger, Fear, or Sorrow" @onyx compass he's mad at ballas about how he was tried by him he's sad that "Archimedean Ainikki" died and maybe even that ballas spurned him. Fear is the most intresting he probably was very fearfull when all the other gen 1 frames died around him and feared for Ainikki fearful for what might happen to the tenno if he hadn't helped them.

[onyx compass]

Yeah I would love to know more about Ainikki

[proper barn]

me too.

[acoustic bone]

Am I the only one hoping for the next major update to be more lore for ordis or am I just {RET@R7ED} weird?

[stiff fable]

They know people want it, so it's somewhat likely

Just to be clear, you went through the cephalon fragments, right?

[proper barn]

no. but also r word cringe.

[acoustic bone]

Yes

[old dome]

...i think i missed up the viral status chats again...

[fallen oxide]

A lot

I mean, EVERYONE hates ballas

And i dont mean a normal hate, like " oh i want to kill this guy "

I mean that If everyone that was involved with ballas had the chance to torture him for 3 months, they would ask If It could be extended to 6 months.

[old dome]

nah, extended for centuries more like.

[tranquil cape]

question, is there an actual reason the corpus lady calls the cease fire during Jade Shadows apart from "Oh no, child"?

[old dome]

nope. its literally just bc theres a newborn child.

[tranquil cape]

yeah, felt odd that the corpus would do that
but then I'm reminded of the lore for Jade and the sadness comes back

[old dome]

i mean... why would anyone in their right minds shoot a child...?

[mystic lynx]

Seems it's trying to show that not all the corpus is all about numbers and profit
I mean she probably is but when it comes down to a literal newborn child caught in the middle of a gunfire

[tranquil cape]

makes me wish we had missions where we could stab orokin, but alas

[onyx compass]

Does the sacrifice count?

[restive river]

The Corpus are human too :)

[graceful swan]

Would you continue shooting a person if you saw they were just trying to protect their child?

[jaunty siren]

if they ever did playable ordan karris that could be true

[graceful swan]

Or they could just give us the Night of the Naga drums footage or let us fight Albrecht

[restive river]

I’d kill for a spinoff game or just a large cinematic quest from Ordan’s pov purely to give more insight on him and a peak into the Orokin era

[graceful swan]

We should’ve asked for a 1999 update which takes it into the future so we could meet Ordan

[restive river]

Technically we already have

I think the issue is a lot of the Ordan lore has been shown

It’d more just be nice to have a gameplay portion

[graceful swan]

There was actually going to be an Ordis quest at one point

Longest Mission" - An Ordis story

Time lapse of the Liset covered in dust, seasons, day & night flickering, with Ordis. Boring UI overlays... day seven hundred... overlapped with day four thousand... day-the flickering halts. A tree has fallen on the ship, scrapping the hull.

Ordis now needs to maintain extraction vehicle with the over-cautious use of his Host Migrator: a drone he can move short distances from the ship.

This is terrifying for him, as he cannot venture from the ship at all for fear of missing the return of the Operator, even though he’s been waiting for eleven million, three hundred and fifty thousand seconds.

As he becomes bolder he discovers a rodent creature and its small collection of shiny objects from the lost Orokin era. One is a component Ordis can use to extend his drone’s range even. Ordis takes it but feels obligated to leave something in return. He leaves a small tree-nut… And lo and below, finds the next day an increasing number of these small animals, leaving objects, expecting a free meal.

The rodents sniff and ‘skunk’ Ordis (which comically, Ordis interprets as a very kind gesture?)

One day he collects a large number of nuts to feed his growing flock and returns to the den to find the animals… are gone. He is confused until he finds a strange marking.

A boot print...

This is from Steve’s pastebin

[restive river]

Doesn’t Ordis talk about how he has a stinky rodent friend in the camp?

I think it could be argued this is canon in every way aside from being i the game
Maybe

[graceful swan]

Most of it does fall in line with Ordis in TNW

[hexed oxide]

Is duviri inside time ?

[restive river]

It’s in the void and time def seems to flow differently

But there’s still relative events that occur
Like the Paracesis stab for example

From my understanding Duviri is basically a constant groundhog’s day too, it’s just that everyone remembers and as a result kinda everyone is bored

But Duviri is safe
Or
Was

[hexed oxide]

Physically (if it applies) it's in the void, drifter can go in and out through the zariman i guess. But my question is if it is inside warframe's timeline

[lean garden]

yes

[vagrant bone]

paradox?

[graceful swan]

Duviri is literally in a time loop

[tall echo]

Paradox?

[lean garden]

paradox?

[hexed oxide]

1999 is in a time loop too, which didn't prevent kaya from travelling out of it or the coda from having a space stadium. At least i know both of them (kind of) follow normal time rules

[restive river]

I mean Thrax is getting out of the loop in Isleweaver and we’ve taken plenty stuff out of it before

[graceful swan]

There’s even that one trailer where Thrax hints that he wanted to visit outside

[restive river]

I still think that was cut alongside a buncha other duviri stuff

[graceful swan]

Duviri is one instance where I think the trailers were better than the quest

[vocal cloak]

I need someone that knows about infestation lore to answer something for me: Is there a reason beyond game mechanics that the Helminth needs to subsume Temple to grant us their ability? Lizzie shares the same strain as Temple, but unlike other Warframe strains isn't "tamed" so to speak and isolated from the greater Helminth mind.

Another way to phrase the question: What exactly does the Helminth need and do in the process of subsuming?

[stiff fable]

As far as I can tell, the Helminth needs to consume and digest the whole Warframe at once to get access to the subsume

Also I'm pretty sure it's the other way around, most Warframes are less connected to the Infested Hivemind than Lizzie

Because the Helminth strain isn't infectious, it should be the remnants of Flare's original technocyte exposure that created Lizzie

now that I think about it, there might be a mental component too, like needing to consume the Warframe's consciousness?

[vocal cloak]

?
Lizzie reveals she is the Helminth during KIM dialogues with Temple. This makes sense given Entrati likely had access to the Helminth strain as part of the Orokin empire and had involvement with Warframes/Tenno. The Warframes are made using the Helminth strain after all, so the same would apply to the protoframes. However, like I said, Lizzie isn't "dormant" as the Drifter puts it with Nidus being the only other current exception to that rule with regard to how the infestation manifests and she also retains her connection to the Helminth which is confirmed by her KIM dialogue.

[stiff fable]

errr

ALL Warframes are made from the Helminth strain

[vocal cloak]

Read more than the first sentence.

[stiff fable]

That includes the protoframes

Every last proto is made with the Helminth strain of their corresponding Warframe

[vocal cloak]

Dude

[stiff fable]

Entrati just didn't give the last dose that would fully Warframe them

The thing that's weird about Lizzie is that Flare shouldn't have been able to create her with his blood

The Helminth strain, once it's in someone, doesn't spread

Otherwise every Warframe would be a technocyte "carrier", spreading the infestation wherever it goes

[vocal cloak]

...Lettie addresses that. That's not really weird. If anyone else wants to give a stab at my question let me know.

[stiff fable]

No, the Hex were carriers before they were protoframed

That's the whole betrayal part, they thought they'd been cursed of the infestation when they just had been kept from getting worse

And then after a few months of that they were made to transform

[lean garden]

Imagine it like growing a plant, it gets tall and long enough, and you snip off a branch, you edit it, modify it, change it from its parent, and then you make it grow. And then you think to yourself, hmmmm, I do want the parent to have this trait, and so you take the child, and you graft it back to the parent to give it the trait you want

[stiff fable]

That analogy works really well because of the whole flower garden.

[vocal cloak]

This makes sense. So it's more like the physical mutation itself (presumably the source of the powers) is distinct from however much or little influence the Helminth has mentally? So far as we've been informed currently at least.

[lean garden]

yea just cuz theyre in the same discord call dont mean that they got the same specs

but also its not just lizzie being "connected to the helminth"

lizzie threatens you

tells you to think why your warframe feels just a little tighter

[vocal cloak]

That's just the Helminth in general. I'm not shocked by that.

[sage moat]

how do you guys think mental illness was viewed in the orokin era?

[placid cypress]

Disease

Orokin are mad in the purest sense (literally) they would probably execute them for not being perfect

[woven coyote]

they didnt aprove of a lot of things that are natural to humans, part of their vision of modification to stand above others i would imagine

like even twins were outcasts for looking "clone like"

and since clones were slaves, well....

[sage moat]

that makes sense

[stiff fable]

There's kind of a range

Like, Rell is autistic coded but if that expressed as a form of savantism that could be a net positive

[onyx compass]

seems fitting for the orokin to only care about them if they're useful to their society

[stiff fable]

Right?

[proper barn]

even if they are useful the Orokin might still hate them.

Look at twins how they where like healers but also hated by orokin society.

[old dome]

margulis literally outcasted rell for being a traumatized autistic kid who lashed out bc of overstim (i think...?) & she didnt know how to handle that soooooooo. yeah.

anyone mentally ill or neurodiv would just die.

[sage moat]

and margulis is a go to example of a GOOD orokin

[old dome]

eyup!

[restive river]

She wasn’t an Orokin
But
Yeah

Archimedeans weren’t Orokin
The people of the Zariman weren’t Orokin
Lorists (afaik) weren’t Orokin

Loid isn’t even an Orokin

[sage moat]

yeah that slipped my mind

but the culture as a whole is still referred to as "Orokin" isnt it?

[restive river]

I mean
Yeah, kinda, but Orokin is more so the tall blue horrible people
Not the scientists forced to do their deeds

[stiff fable]

I always figured that Rell's the one who blinded Margulis

The Tenno would have absolutely murdered him for that

[restive river]

Some woulda done it just cause he was “weird” or “off”

[stiff fable]

true, he was already not popular with the Zariman kids

[jagged gulch]

I was just thinking about it and what if the Stalker is Arthur... the reason i think this is because isn't stalker just an Excalibur that stole other frames abilities? also Stalker is a warframe that doesnt have a tenno controlling it... ergo a protoframe... no? and if Arthur Does become stalker... what if the reason he stole abilities was to protect his friends/family, but then the war happened with the tenno, the warframes, the orokin, etc etc and it damaged him so much both mentaly and physically that he became the stalker hunting tenno?

[stiff fable]

No, Arthur dies thousands of years before the Old War

[old dome]

protos =/= the warframes they got the dna from.

also stalker was married & now busy raising a child... arthur isnt. the guy never have been married even.

[stiff fable]

Stalker is a unique Warframe, him looking like Excalibur is just asset reuse

[jagged gulch]

ok but what if saving them is actually what started our timeline? and them dieing is actually a different one that ended up having someone go back in time to stop them from dieing to keep this timeline instead? lol

[old dome]

...how far along are you in the quests??

[stiff fable]

A "protoframe" is Albrecht's terms for someone given the Warframe transformations who's kept their humanity

[stiff fable]

Time travel doesn't work like that in Warframe

[jagged gulch]

lol but r u suuuure?

[stiff fable]

Yes

[old dome]

yes

[jagged gulch]

damn

[old dome]

you dont erase an entire timeline of events just because...

[stiff fable]

There's only one timeline, even if you change it

The others exist but not for you

[jagged gulch]

not entirely true

[stiff fable]

That's what eternalism is

[old dome]

also, again: stalker was married & now raising a child. arthur's been a military man his entire life & never had a child.

[jagged gulch]

Duviri and the other... Both exist for you and you can travel between

[stiff fable]

The whole "your father is alive your mother is alive" thing

Duviri isn't a separate timeline

[jagged gulch]

yes it is

[stiff fable]

It's a null, a zero

[jagged gulch]

it even said so

[old dome]

duviri exists in the void...

[stiff fable]

Because time doesn't exist in the Void

[jagged gulch]

duviri is the timeline in which you didnt get rescued

[old dome]

yes... & it exists in the void due to a child's inability to handle trauma.

[jagged gulch]

it even says that when you play the story mission for it

[stiff fable]

That's what I mean by a null

[jagged gulch]

so it is 2 timelines

[old dome]

the void isnt a separate timeline.

[jagged gulch]

and it isnt

[stiff fable]

you can only reach it because it's in the void

[jagged gulch]

the void is what is connecting those 2 timelines

[stiff fable]

No, that's incorrect

Duviri IS the Drifter's Zariman

[jagged gulch]

it isnt in the voide... its connected by the void

[stiff fable]

stuck in the void still

[jagged gulch]

same with 1999... the void connected you to it so you can go back

[stiff fable]

it's protected from the Void, but still exists inside it

that's where you're misunderstanding

Duviri is inside what's been called the Deep Void

The part that doesn't touch physical reality anywhere

It's a place inside no-place

A paradox

[jagged gulch]

then technically isnt 1999 a paradox at that point?

[stiff fable]

No

Time travel is consistent with the rules of eternalism

[jagged gulch]

because before you go back to "Fix it" 1999 is a fixed point... the event that happens so you can happen... if you go back and change that you are basically ereasing yourself from history and all of time

[stiff fable]

No, it's not a fixed point

Basically unless we make enough changes that the Orokin Era never happens, there's nothing we can do in 1999 that will meaningfully change history

Because the Orokin erase the pre-Orokin history of Earth

Hollvania gets nuked? Doesn't matter to future history.

Hollvania quarantine broken and three countries get overrun by infestation before it's stopped? Doesn't change the future

The important part is the technocyte infestation starting and Scaldra coming to prominence

[jagged gulch]

um... but you forget... we stopped the nuke

[stiff fable]

And that happened in 1998

[stiff fable]

And that ALSO doesn't change the future

except in small ways that matter to us (and the people who would have died in nuclear fire) but not to the timeline

[lilac aspen]

TLDR
Warframe time travel doesn’t have a butterfly effect

To change a significant event in history, you need an equally significant event.

To change the future we’d basically need to do something so drastic that not even the Orokin can cover it up

[rotund tinsel]

I wonder what Umbra was doing during the entirety of new war

[rotund tinsel]

If we erase the Orokin era,that would erase us,grandpa paradox basically then?

Like it wouldn't get rid of us completely,but it would make it so we never went down the path for us feel the need to erase them

[stiff fable]

Probably!

There's also the tiny possibility that Wally could outright interfere with an honest-to-god grandfather paradox

[humble sierra]

I think the Eternalism TedTalk that Eularia does mentions something about how interfering with the past doesn't prevent the future from happening but also does change it?

Nevermind I have no clue where I got that from

I conceptually embodied that factoid lmao

Euleria Entrati: "The Void offers humanity the truer telling of Eternalism. That now is merely a facet of a great block."

[Screen: Eternalism theory of Void travel. Polytemporal nexus (see Chapter 7); animation of a spinning cube]

Euleria Entrati: "It is relative… and we can change the frame."

[Screen: Meta-event: solar totality; animation of star states held within a cube]

Euleria Entrati: "The tyranny of the Present Absolute is overthrown. Tomorrow is now its equal.

[restive river]

Look up the palimpsest of spacetime

[humble sierra]

❤️

"The core thesis of The Palimpsest of Spacetime: Events can be rewritten; traces of the original persist"

[old dome]

you & i both... i like to think he was also helping drifter bc he still has his honor code intact & bc drifter is kinda sorta operator too. its just a little headcanon.

[hexed oxide]

DE did him dirty

literally no involvement in anything after his quest

[humble sierra]

I used Umbra for the New War and I just headcanon that he gets sucked into the Void too when Operator does

Which is why he doesn't help Drifter

But saving Operator gets him out of the Void too

[old dome]

we all used umbra during tnw huh?

[last wyvern]

This might be true since Wally is currently situated in Duviri doing who know what

He might be trying to erase Drifter by consuming Duviri

[humble sierra]

It's the one Warframe we all have, guaranteed

[rotund tinsel]

Besides one of the main 3 starters

Or poster boy Excalibur

[humble sierra]

"we all"

[rotund tinsel]

Now realised what you meant

[humble sierra]

lol dw

[lilac aspen]

Personally I see it as Wally making a fair trade

Stole my new years
So I’m stealing your kingdom

[cunning tapir]

I feel like we're about to go find Neci, tell her the key phrase and what's gonna happen is us essentially doing the love-allergic demon exorcising equivalent of spritzing a cat with a water bottle.

[jaunty oasis]

Man in the Wall was taking pieces of duviri anyway. The events of 1999 wouldn’t necessarily be the trigger for him to attack duviri now; probably only in the sense that 1999 was a precursor step to this upcoming duviri step.

[stiff fable]

they said in the devstream it's because Drifter took 1999

The most interesting thing though is that Thrax says it's a fake Duviri

[graceful swan]

Thrax was all fine with Duviri being real until he was no longer on the throne

[stiff fable]

haha

[jaunty siren]

how does entrati pick which person gets which warframe
does he have a WF version of stand arrow

[strange plinth]

i mean, he probably has separate labelled injections
as for picking who gets what, i don't think that's known if he has a process or is just vibes
but i think from a min/vel chat, he is able to decide what strains people get

[swift sentinel]

Other than a sense of irony, there doesn't seem to be a larger plan about the specific warframes chosen

[silk escarp]

So I wanna get something straight. So jade and stalker. Like umbra they were sentient warframes, right? Before they were turned into warframes they were secret lovers who conceived a child, right? And jade died giving birth to that child. That child technically is the first naturally born warframe.

[viscid scroll]

Playable newborn frame 2026

[strange plinth]

that's pretty much correct, yes

[silk escarp]

Or the frame grows to combat capable very quickly with a mix of both stalker and jades abilities and with its mother's weapon

No idea how DE would approach the naming conventions if they go this route though

[graceful swan]

DE are probably never going to allow us to control the baby

This is due to certain countries not liking children let alone a baby being harmed

Plus we don’t even know if it will be aged up there’s not even enough time for it to become an adult

At best the baby will be a vendor or something similar some day

[strange plinth]

only thing we have currently is jade shadows is defined as a main quest - not a warframe or side quest
so its going to be a requirement for something that's planned

[graceful swan]

All we know is the baby might be important eventually

[humble sierra]

If we control the baby it'll probably be a no-risk QTE interaction

[tall echo]

Time travel

[stiff fable]

It's more likely that JS is a main quest because they're going to have Hunhow finish dying

So they need to disconnect Stalker from Hunhow ahead of time

[restive river]

I think that’s due to it being a strand of khra, a conceptually embodied timeline layered over Duviri to both fit Wally’s needs and allow him consistent access

[silk escarp]

That's why I put that it might grow to combat capable very quickly. Potentially becoming a tenuous ally in a later main mission after a significant time skip similar to the start of the new war

[lilac aspen]

Imagine getting captured and a Warframe baby exits the vents, frees you, and then dips

[plush walrus]

yo guys where is wally rn? is he trapped in 1999, or did he escape out of it like kaya?

[lilac aspen]

Wally got pushed away from 1999
He’s basically in the void
As always

[dire mountain]

Why would he be trapped in 1999

[plush walrus]

i remeber one of the protoframes asking about duviri then saying if we can trap wally in duviri.

[dire mountain]

He was trying to get into it

[plush walrus]

i thought that was entrati plan

which was why he went to 1999

[dire mountain]

He went to 1999 because it was somewhere wally couldn't easily follow him

Wally of course, did anyways

[dire mountain]

Oh also it was to protect Loid too

[lilac aspen]

Entrati went to 1999 to try escaping Wally
And then went on blowing up a nuclear reactor to get the necessary energy to loop time

To stop Wally from breaking through

[plush walrus]

wally not having his finger means he cant enter from void to the system? meaning hes trapped right?

[graceful swan]

Albrecht ran away again anyway

[dire mountain]

Anyways right now his attention has turned toward Duviri as we found out last month

[lilac aspen]

He can
But right now the Zariman is blocking the entrance

So he’s trying other ways to enter

[plush walrus]

oh ok got it.

its not mentioned how he was able to posses neci right?

like in 1999 it just h\appens

[lilac aspen]

TLDR
Basically the Void is Wally’s house

The Zariman is a car blocking his front door
1999 is the drifter blocking the back door

At this point he needs to jump through the windows

[graceful swan]

TNW shows him entering the Origin System

[dire mountain]

maybe the ARG? I dont think there's been any confirmation

[plush walrus]

ok thanks guys

[stiff fable]

Can't EASILY enter, has to do work to break in.

The Fragmented One makes a path for him

[dire mountain]

Attempts to, at least

[stiff fable]

So we kill the Fragmented One to break the path

[graceful swan]

Ballas opening the portals gave Wally more freedom of movement

[plush walrus]

the murmur always follow wally plans right? they have no other mind or schemes? just a hive mind basically like the infestation

[stiff fable]

The Murmur ARE Wally

[graceful swan]

Murmur are Wally cutting himself

[stiff fable]

The same way that the Sentients enemies we fight are pieces of the big Sentients like Hunhow, the Murmur are teeny-tiny pieces of Wally

[lilac aspen]

Really copying the sentients smh

[stiff fable]

The Fragmented One is a larger and more special piece that can start opening the path for Wally

[stiff fable]

Pretty much, even though it's backwards. The Sentients are IN the Origin System but can't make more of themselves, while Wally is outside of the System and has to send little pieces in to get the big pieces in.

[graceful swan]

One of their descriptions is

Brutally cut from the Indifference in order to protect the greater whole, its three hands bestow the Void’s twisted blessing upon its allies, so long as they remain attached.

[plush walrus]

also do we know if wally has invaded the other places like tau system?

or is the tau system, just where the sentients are

[graceful swan]

Nope

[stiff fable]

As far as we're aware, no.

[lilac aspen]

Tau is safe
For now

But Entrati wants to head there so that’s never a good thing

[stiff fable]

Having said that, something is super wrong with Tau, it's been radio silent since the Old War

[graceful swan]

Wallys main goals are chasing Albrecht and dealing with our deal not going to other systems

[lilac aspen]

I would go radio silent too if I found out the Tenno still killed off our second invasion despite having extra assistance from an Orokin

[plush walrus]

oh ok, kaya being able to escape 1999 is it good or bad?

[stiff fable]

Good for her, since she wanted it.

[plush walrus]

she never said how she did it, but if she can do it, maybe me and elanor could.....acutally nvm

[stiff fable]

Good for the other protoframes since it means they can eventually leave the loop

[lilac aspen]

I mean
If Entrati heads to Tau
Wally will follow to Tau
And might try to breach there too

[stiff fable]

Like I said, the issue is that they've been quiet since the Old War

[graceful swan]

Good for us because we get another person to fight with us

[stiff fable]

Which means that something happened back then

[lilac aspen]

Or maybe they have no interest in the sentients here because like

Erra did forcibly resurrect their “gods” in Warframe-Sentient amalgamation bodies

[graceful swan]

Yeah, but that’s Wally following Albrecht not Wally trying to mess with another system

[stiff fable]

not their gods, as far as we're aware, the Lords of Tau are something else

Probably

It's not explained yet

[graceful swan]

We know very little about Tau

[lilac aspen]

I mean yeah
But the difference is the void is toxic to the Sentients

Which means it could inadvertently kill them off overtime

[stiff fable]

going from Pazuul's dialogue about "Above the Lords of Tau, then my kind, and lastly you and yours below"

[lilac aspen]

H m

So they’re like
Not the Gods
But they are kinda high on the chart

[stiff fable]

The Sentient Beasts might even be something else entirely

[plush walrus]

i was shocked when hunhow was just chilling on one of the planes, i thought he would get sentients to help repair him or something. hes a building rn XD

[stiff fable]

since they don't seem to have had a role in Tau's terraforming

[dire mountain]

Could be akin to the Seven. Although idk if thats likely considering their disdain for the orokin

[lilac aspen]

Too damaged

[stiff fable]

yeah funny story

[lilac aspen]

He’s basically slowly rotting away

[stiff fable]

Narmer was harvesting Temple Kuva

The stuff the Plains Sentient thought could cure it

[plush walrus]

rip, hes just some old grandpa that says "back in my day..."

[lilac aspen]

We gotta inject Hunhow with the Kuva

Hunhow in his prime, DE

[stiff fable]

Which means that they might reactivate Praghasa

[lilac aspen]

The ultimate Farmer will return

[stiff fable]

(who was supposed to be a major New War character originally)

[graceful swan]

Some old grandpa we are older than

[plush walrus]

the murmur entering duviri is interesting, cause the chars there are made up from the story book. so the void is just attacking something made in the void.

[lilac aspen]

Hunhow truly is a grandpa
Grandpa to the Tenno
Grandpa to his ex-roommates child

[lilac aspen]

The difference is the duviri people are made from the Drifter’s existence

The Murmur are pieces of Wally

So Wally is quite literally beating up our stuff

Can’t have anything in the void smh

[graceful swan]

When Hunhow said ‘friend’ I was like you’re not friend you’re grandpa

[tall echo]

Wally doesn't appreciate independent bits of void

[plush walrus]

wally coming for that income tax

[tall echo]

Wally is british

[lilac aspen]

Our estranged Grandpa who was against his daughter adopting us

[graceful swan]

WRS Wally revenue services

[stiff fable]

hold up, the taxman are the Corpus!

[plush walrus]

could the drifter make another duviri? if hes in the zariman? or what if he goes through something traumatic again.

[lilac aspen]

It all makes sense how Wally is so powerful

He’s actually part of the IRS

[stiff fable]

Even the first Duviri was an accident, caused by a strong emotional response

[tall echo]

Would need extreme emotions again

[stiff fable]

You can't deliberately shape the void

[graceful swan]

Wally is part of WRS yet still hasn’t payed rent

[tall echo]

Unless you're cavalero wanting more incarnons

[lilac aspen]

By a child too

[lean garden]

Well, that wasnt deliberate either

[plush walrus]

also this part of TNW i didnt understand, how did drifter gain powers to stop natah from attacking us. ordis died i remeber some cutscene like that

[tall echo]

Fused with operator

[lilac aspen]

The Operator coming back

[plush walrus]

oh ok

[lilac aspen]

Basically eternalism
And all that Void magic stuff

[graceful swan]

Drifter got teleported during the deal scene

[tall echo]

Wibbly wobbly voidy woidy stuff

[plush walrus]

every tenno has wallys finger lool, wally tax services gotta come after lot of taxpayers

[tall echo]

Technically no tenno has wally's finger

[stiff fable]

Drifter got blasted by Lotus's eidolon powers, and Wally used Lotus's hand to pull the Operator out of the time loop the Operator was trapped in

[graceful swan]

Not for long if Wally gets his way

[plush walrus]

the reliqunary dive i mean. thats the finger right?

[stiff fable]

A copy of it

[tall echo]

Not the original

[stiff fable]

The finger makes copies of itself

[lilac aspen]

Wally coming in with the steel chair

[plush walrus]

damn

[lilac aspen]

If you think about it
Wally does like us to a degree
We are the only person to ask for its power instead of stealing it

[graceful swan]

I’m convinced even Albrecht doesn’t have the original anymore otherwise Wally would’ve read his mind and found the location by now

[plush walrus]

oh yea 1999 said that, how the orokin stole it

[stiff fable]

Wally likes us when we do things that benefit him

[tall echo]

We didn't even ask for it, we were offered it

[stiff fable]

But the SECOND we do something that inconveniences him, the Void Angels start trying to rip our face off

[tall echo]

Do not take the devil's bargain

[lilac aspen]

Drifter using their Void rizz to rizz Wally but Wally turns around and says

“I gave you that power, I know all the tricks.”

[stiff fable]

Really, he's just another Orokin

[plush walrus]

if only like a puppy entered teh void before albretch

[stiff fable]

except he ACTUALLY has control over an entire dimension

[graceful swan]

I wonder if Wally enjoyed us killing the Orokin

[tall echo]

Nothing would've happened

[plush walrus]

he wouldnt try to copy it?

[stiff fable]

Wally enjoys despair and surrender

So he liked when we executed prisoners

[graceful swan]

Chat should I kill Albrecht so Wally has nothing to do?

[plush walrus]

i thought when albretch send the animals, he didnt care cause he already seen albretch and knew these lifeforms were insignnificant

[tall echo]

If wally existed before albrecht's incident, he wouldn't have cared for a random animal

[lilac aspen]

If only we tried to give Wally the ability to understand love

Clearly everything will be perfect
Or the Eldritch being will comprehend how to manipulate entities even better now

[plush walrus]

oh i thought albretch entering created wally ca

nvm the void was there all along

[stiff fable]

Albrecht thought he could trick Wally into copying the animals instead of himself

[graceful swan]

Wally isn't the Void

[tall echo]

That is heavily implied

[plush walrus]

has this been said in the game? or a lore thing? or like speculation

[lilac aspen]

Albrecht is assumed to have accidentally created Wally

The reason it’s vulnerable to love is because Albrecht was indifferent at the time before getting rizzed by Loid

Like Albrecht began to accept Loid’s love after the incident

[stiff fable]

Albrecht assumes that he created the Indifference

[tall echo]

And the pc, and that one duvirian

[stiff fable]

The PC is based on Albrecht's assumptions

[tall echo]

The pc is not written by albrecht

[stiff fable]

I suspect he's wrong, but he did give the Indifference a face and thus desires

[tall echo]

Or. Anyone, really

[stiff fable]

Albrecht created the program

[graceful swan]

The theory of Albrecht creating Wally disproves it if true

[plush walrus]

i didnt do enough duviri to know that albrecth entered duviri at some point

[tall echo]

Source?

[plush walrus]

oh ok

[stiff fable]

It's also mentioned in Albrecht's lab notes

[lilac aspen]

Should of given him the desire to rizz Loid and then create another Loid for it

[tall echo]

Should've*

[stiff fable]

I mean, it's part of the Kalymos Sequence, Albrecht created the Kalymos Sequence

Of course he made the computer

[tall echo]

The recap pc isn't part of the sequence

[stiff fable]

It is, actually

[graceful swan]

We used the recap PC in the quest

[tall echo]

But not to read the recaps

[stiff fable]

It's the observer that triggers the Kalymos Sequence

[graceful swan]

The recap isn't part of it the PC is

[tall echo]

How does the recap even work is it ever explained who or what wrote those entries

[graceful swan]

Nope

[stiff fable]

The recap ends with the PC saying "Wally's breaking out, time to start the Sequence"

Contacting the Necraloid.

Activating the Kalymos Sequence.

Awaiting the Chosen Operator.```

[tall echo]

Loid was in cryosleep since the old war, the cavia can't possibly use a pc

[graceful swan]

The original theory was it was Cavia writing the entries then we learned they were animals

[stiff fable]

The cavia were also in cryosleep

[tall echo]

Who wrote that stuff

[stiff fable]

Literally the only option is that it's the computer itself

[tall echo]

The lab was completely isolated

[stiff fable]

Which means Albrecht did a naughty and built an AI

[tall echo]

Even the pc shouldn't be able to write that stuff

[stiff fable]

Albrecht, Albrecht, Albrecht, if only the Seven knew

[graceful swan]

Albrecht casually breaking Orokin laws since birth

[tall echo]

Even the seven would be confused

[plush walrus]

albretch def hacked vending machines bruh

[graceful swan]

Were the 7 ever allowed in his Labs to begin with?

[stiff fable]

nope

[tall echo]

"How is this machine aware of what is happening in the entire system?"

[stiff fable]

The Entratis more or less were given free reign over Deimos

As long as they kept the Heart pumping the Seven and the Orokin Empire at large didn't really care

[graceful swan]

Even Ballas knew not to attack Deimos

[lilac aspen]

If only Albrecht wasn’t unbased at times would I call him based for breaking so many Orokin rules

[graceful swan]

They're only rules if you get caught

[lilac aspen]

The Chad Albrecht rule breaker vs the virgin Ballas traitor

[graceful swan]

Ballas commited treason

Albrecht just did experiments in a secret lab with the only way to enter being sealed so couldn't be caught

Actually Albrecht probably had a teleporter thing

[lilac aspen]

If only Albrecht didn’t look too deep into the void

Alas
He saw it look at him and it smiled

[graceful swan]

If only deimos wasn't right inside of the Void deeper you go

Actually how do you build a lab without your entire family noticing

Surely the terraforming would be heard

[plush walrus]

prolly played abba dancing queen on his ipod loudly

[lilac aspen]

You just need some steel screws borrowed from Grandmother

And some Galvanized steel beams

Granted his daughter knew he did do science work

She was the one who shut down the door that led to the Void in the first place

When he wrote in his blood to tell her to destroy it

[restive river]

Mother went on to do a lot of important void research

[graceful swan]

Watch the reason he something silly like Albrecht just sent them on holiday while he built

[restive river]

But she wasn’t allowed in the labs
She knew of them and that was it

[lilac aspen]

Maybe she just assumes it was eaten by the infestation

[graceful swan]

She didn't know about the one we go to

[restive river]

“You guys have fun at the Jupiter Spas, I totally won’t build a secret lab with my boyfri— butler. Yes. Butler…”

[restive river]

I may be misremembering but she does mention how he did stuff below ground

Not sure if that’s the labs exactly or what’s outside on Deimos below ground

[lilac aspen]

Historians say they were really close roommates

[restive river]

Really really close roommates

I hope if nothing else we get Albrecht and Loid kissing this arc

Heck, give it to us as a poster for pride month!

[graceful swan]

One of the recaps mentions the family don't know about it somehow Daughter did know about the one lab when he first entered not the one we enter

Albrecht wanted to make a chosen one prophecy in secret

[restive river]

Well she was there for that first one

[graceful swan]

Heres the quote btw

The Tenno has encountered the Entrati Family on Deimos. The Family remains unaware of the existence of these laboratories. The Necraloid is an exception. Its memory is, however, suppressed until the activation of the Kalymos Sequence.

Continuing to monitor.

I think the first lab was the heart room before he realised he needed a bigger Lab

[restive river]

I can see that

[lilac aspen]

I wonder if we defeat Wally by just
“I don’t hate you, Wally. I feel bad for you, I wish to help you.”

Wally: Dies from love

[sage comet]

I mean, can it really die to begin with?

Love mainly changes the things that happen to the people from what I know

[restive river]

I just don’t want us to forgive him tbh
Cause
He’s done too much that’s completely unforgivable

[lilac aspen]

True
What if Drifter just
Absorbs it

Becomes the New Wally

[sage comet]

that would be very interesting

We become the new wally ?

we end up bcoming as powerful as him or beyond and take his throne

would be satisfying to see that

[restive river]

We could just take more of his power away from him, we already have a piece of him within us

[lilac aspen]

Become Wally but full of love instead of indifference

[restive river]

Thing is
We don’t want a throne

We shouldn’t become our enemy
The Tenno didn’t do it with the Orokin and they shouldn’t do it with the Indifference either

[lilac aspen]

What if that’s how we fight it
The Entity of Love fighting the Entity of Indifference

We’re technically already doing that

[lilac aspen]

Make a deal but yoink most power as loophole

[stray gale]

we've forgiven other people who have done some pretty heinous things, though

the holdfasts and the entrati family, for example

it would be pretty hypocritical to then draw the line because wally messed with us specifically

[north jolt]

There's a line of dialogue from Tagfur that I think hints at the eventual resolution to this conflict being forcing humanity and empathy into Wally

[lean garden]

I think a major difference is also the measure of intended malice yknow?

[stray gale]

I mean, intent doesn't really matter if the mens rea is still there

[restive river]

The Entrati and Holdfasts didn’t make our parents go mad and force us to either kill them or watch them die
They aren’t the cause for why Drifter was ultimately stuck in a hell of their own making for untold years

[lean garden]

Like the holdfasts and the entrati did what they did for the most part because they thought it was the right thing

Wally did it cuz screw them kids lol

[restive river]

Exactly

[stray gale]

thats exactly my point, though

the holdfasts and the entrati did a lot of spooky stuff to other people

[restive river]

So because he did worse and wants to do worse we should forgive him?

[stray gale]

the line you're drawing is "he messed with us specifically", so, yeah, I think so

[restive river]

The Entrati are part of the Orokin and we killed all of them

[graceful swan]

Most of the Entrati family didn't really do anything to us tbh

[restive river]

Guys we shoulda just forgiven the Orokin

[lilac aspen]

Tbh though
We might put Wally down because it doesn’t comprehend empathy and love

It will always do this until we either implement that comprehension into it or make it cease

[stray gale]

besides, would you really change your mind if he had a sad anime backstory? lol

[restive river]

Us and he’s a literal threat to all of reality??

[lean garden]

Also like, intent should matter because it plays into mens rea no?

[restive river]

I’ve already been down the path of “what if he’s misunderstood”
There’s a point where we can’t just forgive him cause he’s a little lost

[stray gale]

usually not

if you murder someone, it pretty much never matters whether you thought you had a good reason

if you committed what was legally murder under the knowledge that it was murder, then you still get the book thrown at you

[restive river]

The Tenno are literal constant murderers

[stray gale]

the tenno aren't legally murderers, though

[lean garden]

Thats mens rea tho

[stray gale]

no, mens rea is the knowledge that what you are doing is a crime

[restive river]

Legally by what standards?
Cause
They are

[graceful swan]

We have done more to the Entrati Family than they have done to us

[restive river]

We LITERALLY genocided the Orokin

Why is Wally different when he’s a larger and more dangerous threat

[restive river]

It helps they’re stuck, have to listen to us and we need to work together cause the Heart nd all that

[stray gale]

then who is forgiving us

[lean garden]

Ok lets place this within the warframe context, the entrati and the holdfasts wouldn't even be liable with mens rea, since they did what they were legally empowered to do no?

[restive river]

Forgiveness is not always the answer, unfortunately.

[stray gale]

you could probably argue (though the details are a bit too scarce) that killing the orokin was done out of self preservation

[restive river]

It

It wasn’t?

We killed them because they were horrible

[lilac aspen]

I don’t hate Wally because it does the things it does

It’s just its existence, it doesn’t understand love. It was essentially a monster the second it existed.
I don’t hate a lion for eating a cute baby animal

Won’t change the fact I’d get a gun for defense in case the lion wants to eat me next. Which is what Wally is doing to everyone.

[stray gale]

that would be technically correct, yeah

[graceful swan]

Entrati Family
The 2 surviving Dax

[stray gale]

though considering 'rea' means 'guilty', and guilt is something that the entrati and the holdfasts have plenty of, it's still relevant

or rather, they did know what they were doing was wrong, even though they had a 'good reason'

[restive river]

Crazy how both are okay with us genociding the Orokin

[lilac aspen]

I think the Dax are cool with us because we literally freed them from Orokin control

[restive river]

Wally doesn’t feel guilt for what he has done

Forgiving him does nothing if he doesn’t even care

[stray gale]

yeah, that's a fair point, but would that change anything

[graceful swan]

Wally doesn't like the Orokin

[restive river]

Even though we did kill a buncha them
But
That was under orokin control

[stray gale]

again, as I said earlier, if he had a sad anime backstory, would that change him in your eyes?

[restive river]

No

[lean garden]

Well, I assume we both would then agree that they'd still not be convicted, as they'd broken no laws.

Like even if they have a guilty conscience, theres no guilty act no?

[restive river]

Because we’ve already had hints of a sad backstory

And he’s still terrible.

[lean garden]

Well maybe except hombask

[stray gale]

they wouldn't have a mens rea in terms of a judicial system but legal doesn't necessarily mean moral

so, they do have a mens rea in terms of committing moral crimes, if that makes sense

they knew what they were doing was wrong even though they were legally allowed to

[lean garden]

But thats a whole different basket in this case

[restive river]

Wally is lonely, he wants what we have, he’s throwing temper tantrums cause it’s not going his way
He’s not a child, he’s not like Thrax, he’s aware of his actions and feels no guilt

[lean garden]

Because if it comes down to ethics and morality, it becomes even harder to secure conviction

Because now intent matters in certain ethical systems

[lilac aspen]

Yeah Wally is essentially a psychopath monster the moment it existed

It does stuff because it’s bored at this point

[graceful swan]

Slight correction
He wants what we have he wants to be us

[lilac aspen]

Or jealous

Etc etc

[restive river]

Yeah

[stray gale]

the difference is doing something you think is wrong vs doing something you think is right but harsh, I think

[restive river]

Which
Is worse :p

[restive river]

I don’t think Wally views what he does as right or wrong
He just
Does them

[lilac aspen]

How we defeat Wally
Let it be us

It goes mad from finally comprehending our emotional spectrum and realizing what it has done

[graceful swan]

I don't think Wally knows what wrong is

[restive river]

Let alone right

[lean garden]

Well, it gets more expansive than that

Theres the good intentions vs crap result

Theres maximised "happiness"

Theres minimised "harm"

Blah blah blah kantian ethics, utilitarian shindigs blah blah blah

[restive river]

He can understand when he has BEEN wronged by someone else
But he does not recognize his own actions as wrong or right

[lean garden]

Like lets break down the holdfasts

[stray gale]

the rank up cutscenes are here https://wiki.warframe.com/w/The_Holdfasts/Quotes

and I think they do reflect that they knew what they were doing was wrong when they were doing it, rather than just in hindsight

[restive river]

Wally cares not if others are harmed
It’s why Albrecht isn’t a good guy either, the difference being that one has much better intentions out of fear

[stray gale]

except for hombask

[graceful swan]

Albrecht calls himself a demon

[lilac aspen]

Because how eldritchs make us insane is not us seeing them, because we can’t comprehend them.

It’s us being give the ability to comprehend it but the inability to put it in comprehension-able terms

So Wally would be given the ability to understand the full extent of emotions but the inability to put it in its own terms

[stray gale]

they're for sure remorseful but these could definitely fall under 'unforgivable' because they were abusing their power at the time

[restive river]

The Holdfasts were also under a lot of stress due to the jump and the Orokin

Like at least they feel remorse and we have forgiven them because when it comes down to it it was more so the Orokin than it was them

[lean garden]

Oh shrimple, wally's problem is that hes a certified hater

[stray gale]

lol

but I mean, can you really forgive someone if you think they haven't done anything wrong

[lean garden]

I mean yea

I do it all the time

[stray gale]

that makes for a pretty easy forgiveness

[lean garden]

Watch

[restive river]

Wally has done plenty wrong tho

[lean garden]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-quickster-wanna-see-me-do-it-again-want-to-see-me-do-it-again-s3e12-gif-16641790733882486007

[restive river]

Nor is he remorseful

[stray gale]

I mean yeah but so have the holdfasts

and if you want to just shirk their responsibility then you don't really believe they did anything wrong

[restive river]

But they’re remorseful?

They have guilt for their actions??

[stray gale]

that's not really the point

[lean garden]

Shirk their responsibility? Isit the whole point of them as a faction now the opposite?

[stray gale]

almost as if I said earlier, what if wally has a sad anime backstory and tells us he's sorry at some point

that's what the other guy is doing, I mean

[restive river]

I have gone over that

[stray gale]

saying that they can't be blamed because the orokin made them do it

[restive river]

That’s not what I’m saying lol

[stray gale]

yeah you are

[restive river]

The Orokin and the stress they were under is a reasonable factor

Them having remorse for their actions makes it more possible to forgive them

[stray gale]

so they have done wrong, yay or nay?

they are morally on the line?

[restive river]

They have done wrong and can be forgiven, they are remorseful of their actions

They are doing what they can to do better

[stray gale]

so if wally turns out to be remorseful, why can't he be forgiven?

[restive river]

He has shown no signs of remorse?

[stray gale]

his story isn't done

we only see the holdfasts after everything is said and done with them

[restive river]

And even if he did there’s a point where forgiveness can not be given just because one feels guilt

[stray gale]

but wally is still in his villain arc

why not?

[restive river]

Because of what he has done?

[stray gale]

so what is the line between wrongs too big to be forgiven for?

the holdfasts condemned a whole bunch of people to death despite those people being right, pretty much out of ego

[lean garden]

I think a simple question to determine where anyone stands on this issue is:

Did you spare parthunax?

[stray gale]

yeah, I did

[restive river]

Wally doesn’t see his actions as good or bad, just actions
The Holdfasts saw their actions as good at the least
Good intentions, bad actions
But to an extent those actions outweigh the intentions, in the Holdfast’s case where we must ALSO work with them to fight a larger enemy forgiveness is on the table
But Wally is the largest threat, he has no good intentions for his actions, nor bad intentions, he just does things on a whim.

[lean garden]

That was a rhetorical qn lol, but so did I

[stray gale]

I mean, it is a legitimate moral question

because it's not an unfair belief to say that he deserves to pay for his crimes

but I take a generally more realist approach in that he isn't a threat to anyone anymore and killing him wouldn't achieve anything

[lean garden]

actually Im not sure if the "no intentions" arguement works for wally now

[restive river]

If Wally is suddenly remorseful and feels guilt for all the horrible things he’s done, then what?
We forgive and what? Let him go unchecked? He isn’t the type to show he wants change, he doesn’t have good intentions, he cares not for others so why feel remorse?

[restive river]

I mean I wouldn’t call them good or bad
Just
Selfish intentions

[stray gale]

I mean, that's kind of the deal you make when you forgive someone

[lean garden]

because we've got too many individuals drawing conclusions of malice from wally, which is arbitrary at best, but then we have him feeling good by squashing the little guy

[stray gale]

say he has a backstory of something like he literally never experienced what it was like to actually have friends because he was trapped alone in the void

and the first person he met (albrecht) seemed to just mess with him and treat him like a monster

[restive river]

I have considered that already

[stray gale]

I think DE could probably pretty easily justify why wally acts how he does if they wanted to take that path

[restive river]

I said this already
He’s lonely
That doesn’t excuse his actions.

[stray gale]

why not? he literally never had the chance not to be lonely

[restive river]

Yeah and they have justified Albrecht’s actions too and he’s a bad person even still

[restive river]

He did actually
He chose to make adults go mad and force their children to fight them.

Oh and all the terrorizing he did of Duviri

[stray gale]

or in other words, I don't see how somewhat excusing the holdfasts due to the orokin is fine but not excusing wally for circumstances outside his control

[lean garden]

heres a fun conundrum for you, he, in the final act, manages to cross the threshold for what you'd consider forgivable, but he is locked into the act of blowing the system up, think of it like an unstoppable bomb thats already been set off. Theres only one way to actually stop it and that requires to end wally.

what will you do?

[stray gale]

well the utilitarian approach is to kill him, yeah

[restive river]

More like destroy all of reality

[lean garden]

Spiderman 2 go brrrrrrrrr

[restive river]

I also had said this but another reason we can forgive and work with the Holdfasts is because we have a larger enemy to deal with

[stray gale]

in such a case, you kinda have to kill him

because that's just purely self-defence at that point

[restive river]

When there is something larger it is easier to forgive and easier to work with others

There is nothing larger than Wally though
He’s the largest threat we have ever had, there’s no room for working with him because he is the threat to everything

[stray gale]

we don't know that, though

I don't see how DE couldn't pull out a 2wally2furious or whatever

[lean garden]

IMO peak writing would be a forgive and dispose ending for wally

because I'll be a smidge disappointed if warframe went the SU route

[restive river]

I mean
We aren’t gonna just kill him outright
His Murmur still exist, his presence is here

[stray gale]

especially because lbr warframe does like to pull things from bodily crevices

due to eternalism, there's actually a version of warframe's story that is completely consistent and doesn't have any plot holes or forgotten threads ☝️

[restive river]

Steven Universe didn’t even forgive the dictators, he just found a different way
He literally tried to kill one of them lmao

[plush walrus]

At the end of the missions on Deimos Wally experiences love when we use transference into he statue thing. Love is opposite of the indifference. But now that he experienced love. Is it still kryptonite for him??

[restive river]

Yes

[plush walrus]

Like will that be his only weakness?

[lean garden]

eeeeeeh, he kinda did at the end, if you see the movie and Future

[restive river]

It’s the love we have for others that is his weakness

[stray gale]

me boosting wally's power by my hatred for qorvex players

[lean garden]

To no effect, the Qoncrete absorbed the hatred

[restive river]

Bau
I watched the entire show multiple times
He didn’t just forgive them

In Future he literally tries to kill White

[plush walrus]

We just need to make more deals with Wally that's the solution

[restive river]

Lmao

[plush walrus]

Make a deal to have no more negative effects and unlimited wishes

[lean garden]

He didn’t just forgive them
But he did forgive them

[restive river]

I mean eventually but the whole point was that he was able to change their minds

[lean garden]

which is as I said, I dont want an SU ending

[restive river]

Same
I don’t think we should just forgive Wally, let bygones be bygones or anything

[stray gale]

I do kind of like how petty wally is, though

like he has all this power and control and he uses it to be a pain in the ass