lore-discussion

[graceful swan]

Yes

[normal mountain]

Yes
He even interacted with the Tenno
In Kullervo's Hold, there are plaques next to each of his seven cells that talk about his crimes against the Orokin
It's rather depressing

[raw stone]

Ah. Damn that's...

Sidenote, was Kullervo based off of the Poem Anthology of the same name by J.R.R. Tolkien?

[normal mountain]

Possibly?

I knew at one point, but have since focused on ingame lore

[north jolt]

I guess this question technically counts as lore, but in universe what IS Mirage's hall of mirrors? Im guess just specters she can summon that stay by her side and mimic her perfectly?

[raw stone]

Fair enough

I always interpreted them as Mirage being super-reflective.

[north jolt]

But like, reflections cant shoot guns :p

Which is why I wonder

[raw stone]

His disco ball? Her ledgerdemains? Her Eclipse and Hall? All seems to have pointed to her body being coated in fine crystals. Well... that was what I thought she was made out of before Warframe kinda nailed the point of warframes being made with space magic

And quantum theory.

[normal mountain]

Mirage probably has quantum muckanics similar to Limbo

^spelling intentional

[north jolt]

So like basically summoning duplicates or something?

[normal mountain]

Methinks so at least

[raw stone]

I suppose I have to update my headcanoning. That warframes are made of a mix of personal limitations being uninhibited, such as for example... Volt's Speed, taking musculature and Biotic energy its extreme, and also mixing it with void magicks and quantum theories. To make something like even an energy blade from excal work.

Personally, and this was prior to me finding out what Warframes really are? Pre-operator too, I thought Warframes really were people taken to their absolute unhinged limits. Or something like that.

[normal mountain]

That may not be entirely disproven tbh

[raw stone]

I wasn't... wrong. But multiple things can be true at once.

We never really get... what causes some frames to manifest their powers. We have seen how warframes are made, Umbra. We see how warframes can think, Jade and Umbra, we know that sometimes warframes can imprint their personhood upon their frame. Maybe.

That last part at least, the animations we equip have a reason as to existing, they have an in-game reason.

I suppose Dante too. Dante's tale by Drusus. And his words about him...

[north jolt]

Far as how they manifest their powers, i always thought that was done mostly through technological means (Saryn's spores, Excal's exalted blade, just any power you can think of) infused into the frames, but that technology is itself fueled by void energy via the Tenno (or Drifter)

Like Saryn was always just a walking biological warfare machine, BUT the void gives her the actual energy needed to generate and spread her spores, miasma etc

[tall echo]

Kullervo is based on a myth/story from some scandinavian country iirc

[lilac aspen]

All the more reason how busted Lavos is

Bruh saw some funny alchemy texts drawn from blood, waste, and food and went "Ah, I get it now."

Casts power without needing any energy.

[feral cape]

Its not a different reality it's something being manifested by intense emotions and void

[feral cape]

Tenno don't power warframes

[lament stirrup]

Kullervo (the warframe) is based off the character Kullervo from the Finnish poem Kalevela

I'd also honestly argue warframe Kullervo somehow had a less awful life than Poem Kullervo.

[wraith moat]

How long did the Orokin Empire last? All I can find is 'centuries'.

[graceful swan]

At least 10 thousand years

[tall echo]

Centuries

[wraith moat]

I'm working on a timeline for making a TTRPG of Warframe and trying fill a few lore gaps.

[tall echo]

Good luck getting anything solid for that outside of gameplay events

[restive river]

There’s like no details on exact timeframes

[tall echo]

DE doesn't like to give specific details about when what happened

Except 1999 because

[restive river]

Like it’s a big deal that we know the tenno disappeared for at least 1k years

[tall echo]

Well

[wraith moat]

That's fine, exact details aren't necessary, but sometimes it's nice to have back pocket info for player questions to have in side bars.

[feral cape]

Assuming the sentients possessed the bare minimum to be considered "near light speed" travel 1200 years

[ornate harness]

There’s someone that genuinely believes only nidus is made of the infestation, even though it’s like 99% of frames

[restive river]

It’s 100% of frames
Did
Did they play the sacrifice????

[ornate harness]

I don’t think so😭 or legit play the newest quest, the hex, where the drifter quite literally tells Quincy that they don’t know why the infested stopped for them

[restive river]

They should keep playing the game then :p

[ornate harness]

Also I don’t believe xaku is a infested frame, it’s more pure void

[restive river]

No… Xaku is still infested.

Xaku is composed of 3 lost warframes, frames that were lost on entrati void expeditions
It is due to the void that they are the composite that they now are but they’re still very much infested

[ornate harness]

I was arguing with them..because they’re like “can nidus take on rhino” like yes…nidus can control rhino because it’s infested-

[restive river]

Heck, their 1 literally showcases how they’re infested
“Xata’s Whisper”
Xata is truth
The visuals of the ability cover the frame in the infestation :p

[restive river]

Nidus doesn’t just control all of the infestation?

[ornate harness]

Yep

[restive river]

They’re just more infested than the already infested frames

All warframes are infested
It isn’t a warframe if it isn’t infested

[ornate harness]

So it can control all warframes and basically anything in the warframe universe with a couple spores

[restive river]

What?

[ornate harness]

Nidus

[restive river]

Idk where you’re getting that Nidus just
Controls all infestation

[ornate harness]

that’s what nidus does if it isn’t limited by the operator-

[restive river]

Source?

[ornate harness]

at least I’m pretty sure? That’s basically nidus’s whole thing is, to control the infested

[restive river]

He doesn’t just control all of the infestation though.

Like he can make his own maggots and his own little infested ecosystem but he doesn’t control the infestation more than any other frame

He is of the helminth strain same as all other frames

[ornate harness]

Guess I was wrong

[feral cape]

Me when I've succumbed to headcanon

[sage comet]

So here is a question I wanna know the answer to:
Warframes are technically infested vessels with powers from the void yes?

[glacial bough]

Powered BY the Void to be specific, but yes for now

[sage comet]

does that apply to frames like Revenant and Caliban

[glacial bough]

Yes, they are still warframes

[lean garden]

Given that both are still warframes made from the helminth strain: yes

[blissful merlin]

Like AtsiaZ said, powered BY the void. The heart is still functional even if a little bit damaged but it is what powers warframes, Solar rails and other things within the origin system.

[sage comet]

much obliged for the information

[olive comet]

Am I missing something? How do we go from duviri, to the drifter having the lotus and taking care of her?

[glacial bough]

Drifter had her hand

[proper barn]

She is only a hand at the start of the new war.

Also the Drifter also just doesn't know the lotus' name.

They just know her as "hand that saved me"

[ornate harness]

People think frames are the techrot now- god TikTok is full of people that skip lore

[ornate harness]

Doesn’t the drifter come to learn her name via “the kid”, aka operator? Feel like the lotus would come up very often during convo

[ornate harness]

Infested vessels by the helmith strain powered by the void, yes

[proper barn]

What do mean by vessels?

[proper barn]

I mean you don't remember it Completely. If you choose the Drifter at a certain point they'll say "HEY LADY THEY GOT THEIR HOOKS IN YOU DEEP"

[feral cape]

Man you're just now figuring this out?

I've been knowing this for like years

Its like a well documented phenomenon

[lean garden]

Hell theres people who invent lore

Mediocre just showed me a clown who thinks that the creation of Nekros Prime is the birth of a new death god, in the deific sense

And then this new death god replaces the old one

Which all above is all fanfiction at its best

[thick ember]

We have Warframe vs Warhammer and Warframe vs Destiny.

But who would win?
Kirby vs Warframes

[normal mountain]

...could Kirby still eat Grendel from inside Grendel's stomach?

[thick ember]

https://tenor.com/view/kirbo-drooling-kirby-gif-18627683

[proper barn]

Kirby beats god every game.

In forgotten land he Beats the ulimate lifeform with a Truck. He even beats ||Morpho knight the incarnation of death.||

[bright temple]

Kirby

Kirby always wins

It’s a destroyer of worlds in a pink lil’ round shape that just wants to nap and eat cake

[digital grail]

https://tenor.com/view/poyo-terminal-montage-whisper-poyo-kirbo-christian-kirbo-gif-26485584

[bright temple]

he will literally throw hands with beings that are effectively gods just cuz they ruined his naptime

[next mica]

I mean, we're beating ||ballas||, does that count as a god ?

[proper barn]

No

[next mica]

;'(

okay that may not count

but is kirby able to leave his planet to follow us in space ?

[digital grail]

YUP

[next mica]

arf

[digital grail]

https://tenor.com/view/kirby-warp-star-riding-star-shooting-star-nintendo-gif-24929077

[feral cape]

Kirby easily

Kirby beats wally

Im not kidding

[digital grail]

Kirby just kinda

https://tenor.com/view/kirby-suck-kirby-vacuum-cute-nintendo-gif-16544038

[feral cape]

Sealskin said it best when he said warframe was the gojo of space scifi battle boarding it looks really cool it sounds really cool and if you don't know what the other guy does you'd think they win everytime

[proper barn]

Yes he fights space ships

[digital grail]

They warframes are strong as heck but are outclassed or outnumbered by other universe's standards

[feral cape]

Kirby has the warp star which according to this guy's math is 8387548039870.238c

Thats alot of times faster than light

[bright temple]

Kirby would dunk on Wally just to be back at home in time for naptime

[silk atlas]

Hey, that's me!

Kirby doesn't even need silly feat scaling his basic stuff from the games are already wild

Punched a damn planet in half

[lilac aspen]

Kirby would win
Solve all of warframe's problems too.

[sweet wadi]

Umbra and Metaknight would get along great though.

… oh god Deedede and Vay Hek together

[raw stone]

Dedede is a snoozefest. He's archetypal to Hek, sure, but they are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

[olive comet]

Honestly that'd be really sick tho

A frame that was generated using the techrot strand instead of I think the Grey strand?

[stiff fable]

Wouldn't work, anything other than the Helminth strain gets plugged into the hivemind

And then it's not a Warframe

[olive comet]

Udk much about infections but if it was brought back to the future would it still be able to connect to the new infestation? As far as virus' go they look super different

[stiff fable]

Yes

The techrot is just the infestation as it appears in 1999

[tepid lance]

kirby would devour everything...

[stiff fable]

Before it has Orokin technology to base itself on

[olive comet]

Eleanor talked about there being a calmer strand that the scaldra had found, there could be a helminth-viable techrot based strand out there maybe?

[stiff fable]

Haven't read that conversation but probably not

[olive comet]

It was a small line in the actual game

[stiff fable]

The Helminth strain's deal is that it doesn't spread

You can't infect someone with the Helminth strain just by coming into contact with a Warframe

[olive comet]

She just says on comms "scaldra think they've contained the techrot here...it's just more passive"

[stiff fable]

Oh no that's different entirely

[olive comet]

What about the helminth in the backrooms? It seems very techrotty

[stiff fable]

She's not talking about the strain being calmer, just that the infestation is tricking Scaldra into not exterminating it

[stiff fable]

It's still the Helminth strain, it's from the future

[olive comet]

Ah okay

Do warframes look the way they do because of the orokin tech the helminth strand bases itself off of?

If so, could we theoretically have a helminth strand not accustomed to orokin technology, brought into the past to make a frame using 90s technology?

Or is that the reason the protoframes are the way they are?

[stiff fable]

Warframes look the way they do because they were built to look that way

[olive comet]

Ah okay

[stiff fable]

Or, maybe "the Helminth strain is programmed to generate a Warframe that looks the way it does"

[olive comet]

I just recently ran through all the lore trying to pay as much attention as I could lol, from the sacrifice I interpreted the helminth strand made the warframe structure and just kinda melded thst way somehow

[stiff fable]

That's why armor in Warframe is purely cosmetic

[olive comet]

So we could theoretically have a warframe that's based off the minds of what people in 1999 thought a badass ninja robot war soldier should look like?

[stiff fable]

That's correct but the Helminth isn't a natural thing, it has to be designed and programmed to make it look like that

[olive comet]

Entrati was able to manipulate the strand to keep mfs human

[stiff fable]

And, probably not

The only three people who made Warframes were Ballas, Erra and Albrecht

The protoframes are just people who don't get a full dose of the Helminth strain

[olive comet]

I've recently ran through all the main story quests over, where else can I go to get lore?

[olive comet]

Are they weaker than the real frames?

[stiff fable]

Yes and no

In gameplay terms they should be equal to Warframes

[silk atlas]

Unknown, likely they're just not experiened enough, since Aoi could pull some crazy stuff when she figured stuff out

[stiff fable]

But in terms of like setting stuff, your arsenal in 1999 is made of 1999 materials

YOU are weaker in 1999 than you should be

[olive comet]

So there's a possibility turning frames into mindless zombies was never necessary lmao

[silk atlas]

They're going to turn into mindless zombies anyway

[stiff fable]

Oh they weren't supposed to be mindless

[silk atlas]

That's the entire problem with the Helminth strain as a whole.

[stiff fable]

*infestation

[olive comet]

So then what was the whole point of saving them if they're destined to turn into the frames and lose all sense of self anyways lmao

[stiff fable]

Because they're not going insane yet

[olive comet]

Wild

Drifter really just wanted to bang huh

[silk atlas]

And we have other things besides them that we also care about doing in '99, which was the point of the Finale

[stiff fable]

Also Warframes can hold off the insanity by having strong feelings

[olive comet]

So no warframe has yet to beat the helminth strain?

[stiff fable]

Plenty have

Jade did, Stalker did. Kullervo, Dante.

[olive comet]

Didn't know about kullervo and Dante but I was Def gonna ask about those two

[stiff fable]

Well I still think Dante had an operator, and I have suspicions about Kullervo thanks to some of the nursery rhymes

[olive comet]

I do wanna ask about that baby but that's a completely different topic

[olive comet]

Nuh uh I just wanted to save my little guys

How does time work for frames? Do frames age?

I'd imagine if anything the protoframes lives are extended significantly, if not indefinitely

[stiff fable]

Frames don't age

But the Hex are caught in a time loop so we'll never know

[olive comet]

So drifter started the loop but doesn't know how to stop said loop?

[stiff fable]

Oh wait let me correct, frames don't age because they get a periodic spa treatment from the Helminth Infirmary which replaces damaged infested tissue and repairs the various armored bits

The infestation's cellular regeneration speed should rapidly age individuals that aren't constantly refreshed in a similar way

Notice that Arthur's going gray in his late 20s

[feral cape]

Drifter didn't start the loop and he can end it whenever

[stiff fable]

But yeah the Drifter didn't stop the loop, just reset it that one time

[feral cape]

Albrecht started the loop and you seemingly were just given control of it or stole control of it

Either way it's all Albrechts plan

[stiff fable]

It's now outside their control

And persists without them

[olive comet]

I thought that was just a genetic thing lol

[olive comet]

Here I thought the drifter was a power badass

[feral cape]

You're not the only one

[stiff fable]

I mean maybe but the Warframe process super stressed out their bodies

[feral cape]

I have to correct people all the time who think drifter can just loop time at will

[olive comet]

I didn't think it was at will, more a random power surge that was more of their void instinct and that's why they couldn't stop it because they didn't even intend to start it

And it was albrecht who knew putting them in that dying state would force a surge

[stiff fable]

Fwiw the loop existed before the Drifter reached 1999

[olive comet]

Is the drifter stronger than the tenno? The reason I say that is because the drifter was sitting around soaking up void energy in their personal hell for alot longer than the tenno

And I don't think I've seen our tenno do anything as strong as domain expanding themselves into a fully fleshed out reality

[silk atlas]

Drifter didn't do that conciously or from their own powers, it was the Void screwing around with their emotions

[feral cape]

Duviri isnt Drifters power

Its conceptual embodiment an act anyone is capable of should they be feeling intense emotion

[silk atlas]

In the presence of Void energy

[olive comet]

Would they be able to do it intentionally if they understood it? As far as I've seen it the drifter has done more crazy things on accident than the tenno has done on purpose

[feral cape]

No

The whole point of conceptual embodiment is you don't want it to happen

Because it only happens under intense emotions within the presence of decently dense void energy like in the void or on lua

There's no controlling conceptual embodiment it's antithetical to control

[olive comet]

What about something like Wally? Seems to be able to take on forms at will

[feral cape]

Thats just his power

I dont think that's ce

[olive comet]

Reading up on what I could find, if conceptual embodiment can happen from more than just emotions, such as memories or strong thoughts, there must be a way to intentionally cause this to happen, it's just no thing besides maybe wally has the ability to manipulate the void in that way

But regardless my main curiosity is if there's a difference in power between tenno and the drifter? We've seen the drifter take hold of duviri, and kinda forcefully learned transference without requiring the man in the walls deal

Please feel free to correct me I don't have any integrity in these takes lmao

[stiff fable]

The void responds to deep thoughts, core personal truths and the unconscious mind, meaning conscious manifestations aren't really a thing

[olive comet]

But the lady says they "make a thing" lol

[stiff fable]

The Drifter controls Duviri because they created it and Thrax is a manifestation of "their" toy

[olive comet]

Wally seems to consciously manifest things and even manipulate (more like force then to resurface) memories of others, if he's able to transfer this power to others like the tenno, could we say it's theoretically possible for something to control this part of his powe aswell?

He was able to force the memories of albrecht and the tenno to learn their nicknames

Another thing that could confirm this but I can't find enough info, how did the parents get mind warped? It forced them into a constant state of strong emotion (rage), which means the void is able to manipulate strong emotions (if intentionally at all, none the less if something could harness and understand the void it should be able to recreate it)

But at this rate I think I'm getting too far into theory territory to draw any conclusions

[lament stirrup]

THe void seems to drive people insane passively. If I had to hazard a guess, Wally amplified its effects on the parents and shielded the children (So they'd be coherent enough for one of them to take Wally's deal)

[stiff fable]

Wally isn't a person, Wally IS the void

[feral cape]

Might be

We still don't know what wally is at most we've been told he's probably the manifestation of albretchs fear

[olive comet]

So he was able to manipulate the effect, he can manipulate emotions,, and if he can give people the power to manipulate this emotion, if the drifter can make 'universes' from strong emotions, then maybe the drifter could master the power to manipulate their emotions, and maybe he could intentionally use CE, does anything that we currently know stop this theory or headcannon from existing?

[lament stirrup]

Well, the fact that the Drifter hasn't done it yet is a pretty strong piece of evidence against it.

Conceptual Embodiment seems adverse to being "controlled", given that even Wally can't break into Duviri without a disguise.

(Not for lack of trying, since Thrax has explicitly destroyed islands to keep wally out)

[olive comet]

In some magic systems there are laws that can be set by weaker magicians that even high level magicians need to follow, so maybe wfs magic system could have that criteria

(My example is jjk)

[lament stirrup]

I dont think the way other settings work would have any bearing on the way warframe works.

[olive comet]

Bro is still young as far as transference control

[olive comet]

Well what I'm trying to say is the drifter or thrax could've enforced rules that even wally had to follow

[lament stirrup]

Oh yeah, definitly. Duviri "exists" in a way the rest of the void doesn't. To the point that the inhabitants talk about the void as a seperate place

[olive comet]

Exactly, so it could be controllable but wally isn't immune to its co trol

[lament stirrup]

Conceptual Embodiment works on passionate emotions, usually involving someone dying. I dont think its possible to simeltaneously control and direct your emotions and still be in a state of mind that leads to major conceptual embodiment (Cavellero's Incarnons notwithstanding)

[thick ember]

https://tenor.com/view/kirbo-ssb-super-smash-bros-kirby-gif-23980896

[sturdy arrow]

What's the ingame price of On-Lyne Merchandise? Like, if I was A Hollvania citizen, how many Hollars would I have to spend for an On-Lyne merchandise pack?

[lament stirrup]

Theres an album in the gifts tab that worth 4000 hollars.

Presumably Hollars are closer to Yen in value.

[thick ember]

Good question
I think based on how our cred got converted as 1:1 in the computer shop. No inflation, kinda weird.

[lament stirrup]

Or Onlyne's music is just that good.

[thick ember]

Yeah maybe close to Yen.
But wait. I kinda forgot how much a brand new album costs back in 1999 irl

Playstation 2 games were around £50 at the time

[lament stirrup]

We'd also have to account for Hollvania being european (slavic or german seems the most likely?)

[sturdy arrow]

Okay so now if we find out the conversion rate between the ingame On-Lyne Merchandise and real life On-Lyne merchandise, we'll be 1 step closer to figuring out an actual Platinum conversion rate so people will stop scamming others with, "God Roll," Rivens

[lament stirrup]

I admire your mission even if I dont wholly understand your methods.

[thick ember]

What's the market plat price for that 150k cred bundle again?

[sturdy arrow]

I'm pretty sure the conversion rate for Credits to Platinum is 3,889 Credits to 1 Platinum...

[lean garden]

?

[lean garden]

If we take a looksie at the rell comic, some of it was just replacement by wally

[spark python]

Who made revenant into a prime

[silk atlas]

The Void™️

[opal sun]

Can you convert credits to platinum

[spark python]

The void as in like the space with energy or the man in the wall?

[silk atlas]

The former

We still have no idea what Wally's angle is so he very well could be the Void itself, but until further confirmation, it's a tossup on what he is.

[spark python]

Ok thanks

[proper barn]

What do you mean?

[opal sun]

I’m still kinda new to warframe besides trading and buying platinum how else can you get it

[proper barn]

That's how you get it.

[brittle siren]

Guys, Bean said Rev Prime is a plot hole and many prime after that

[plain reef]

Thats pretty much the only way, trading or spending money

[proper barn]

there are ways to get everything that costs platium that aren't cosmetics without paying plat even some Costmetics.

@opal sun

[plain reef]

Some frames weren’t primes at first and later turned into primes either due to orokin or other means

[winter geode]

my problem is theyre "void magic"-ing it away when it doesnt fit with any established void lore

[brittle siren]

Xaku exist

(Not Prime, normal one)

[proper barn]

they literally aren't @winter geode it's one of the like 3 times they have ever used the eteranlism reasoning.

Ballas even calls him fatherless.

[brittle siren]

What was the other 2

[proper barn]

Drifter

and like 1999 if you want/ the unum is related to it. you could duviri but i lump that into drifter.

[brittle siren]

Also isn't Duviri just snatch a frame and put in Teshin cave?

[proper barn]

what?

what do you mean?

[plain reef]

• snatch stalker

[brittle siren]

I mean where does those frame at the beginning of the Duviri quest come from

[winter geode]

i guess part of the problem is i dont understand eternalism?

[brittle siren]

It basically Multiverse

[proper barn]

its' not though

no other universes exist.

[plain reef]

Kinda

[proper barn]

it's just sometimes unrealized possibilites become real through the void.

[opal sun]

Yes?

[brittle siren]

Schrödinger's Cat is the example

[proper barn]

oh i @ed you do you can see what i said.

[winter geode]

right but how

[proper barn]

the VOID

[brittle siren]

I mean when OP shake with Wally all other version of us died beside OP and drifter

[winter geode]

thats just an unsatifying bandaid solution thats not really lore

[proper barn]

It's more like all the other possibilites then became not real.

[plain reef]

Didn’t baro lore confirm there was other universes and the deal he made with man in wall merged them into one

[proper barn]

also from the zariman tablets i think

the normal course was the zariman staying in the void forever.

[dreamy ruin]

baro is the real evil mastermind

[winter geode]

what makes drifter the one of infinite "unrealized possibilities" that actually happened?

[proper barn]

2. What is the core thesis of The Palimpsest of Spacetime?

A. Events can be rewritten; traces of the original persist (correct)

B. Everything that exists could, at any point, be erased

[plain reef]

Drifter was never saved by lotus thus was left in the zariman, while operator was saved and didn’t get left in the zariman

[proper barn]

I think THEY WHERE ORIGINAL COURSE

[proper barn]

why would this zariman tablet be in duviri.

[proper barn]

they where saved by margulis.

[winter geode]

surely those werent the only two outcomes out of infinite instances though?

[proper barn]

I THINK THE ZARIMAN NEVER COMING OUT OF THE VOID

[plain reef]

We’ll never know unless DE gives us different outcomes

[proper barn]

WAS THE ORIGINAL COURSE

[brittle siren]

But Wally said he did save all but the Drifter

[glacial bough]

The Tenno were saved in Drifter's reality. His deal just specifically screwed him over

[proper barn]

WHY WOULD A ZARIMAN TABLET IN DUVIRI SAY THIS BEAN

[proper barn]

yes i think that is what Wally changed

[plain reef]

Man in the wall laughs when you answer the tablets in duviri

[proper barn]

i don't think it was gonna come out of the void.

[proper barn]

certain tablets

that are obivuslly corrupted.

[brittle siren]

Also Zariman did come out of the void twice, the first is the time when Margulis save all of them but then Zariman was push back into the void. Second time obvious

[proper barn]

yeah.

[brittle siren]

Btw I have cool headcanon, what if Wally has 2 different personalities

We need more Wally lore fr

[feral cape]

Can you name an example

[winter geode]

i was originally talking about rev prime

[feral cape]

According to word of mouth at a panel at tenno con de employees said the unum made rev prime via conceptual embodiment

Granted this isn't recorded and is purely word of mouth

[lean garden]

I mean, assuming that it was the void (althought some claim it is the unum), creation via conceptual embodiment isnt inconsistent with void lore

[lean garden]

Oh they got up to conceptual embodiment? Last I heard was just the unum bit

[feral cape]

I mean i kinda assume it has to be ce

[winter geode]

what exactly was being conceptually embodied though?

[feral cape]

The thought of revenant prime

[glacial bough]

An upgrade to Revenant

[lament stirrup]

Its not impossible that the Unum could've made prime quality blueprints, since shes been alive since the orokin era.

[winter geode]

doesnt it have to be pretty intense for it to actually happen

[glacial bough]

No, CE can happen with any random thought

[lament stirrup]

??? Thats objectively not what we've been told.

[lean garden]

And also thats a boss gurl

[feral cape]

Wiki

[lean garden]

Ranoru said something about you extending this to other primes, is that right?

[lament stirrup]

Lotus describes the void as reacting to powerful emotions during the mars mirror defense, something which Yonta and the Drifter later support when they mention conceptual embodiment.

[winter geode]

i think they misunderstood my initial question

[lean garden]

Possible

[winter geode]

tbh the thing that would most appease me would just be more unum lore but thats unlikely

like how deeply connected is she to the void and whats the extent of her abilities

[lean garden]

Dont give up

Ill invade DE and get them to do it
-# hire me DE

[winter geode]

real

i had some hope with koumei because yknow cetus but we didnt get much

[brittle siren]

You said you don't care about Prime lore after Rev Prime since you said they don't make sense anymore

[brittle siren]

And Grey too, he need to be on the wiki to fix lore up there

[winter geode]

i meant more like after rev nothing surprises me

not that everything after rev doesnt make sense

[olive comet]

Kiddo is what tennos dad called us

[lean garden]

But before Wally's first appearance in the game, we already remembered our nickname

[olive comet]

Yeah but we didn't tell wally

He forced that knowledge to be known same with albrecht, his nickname for alb is what albrechts mom called hin

[humble sierra]

With the case of the Tenno, it's possible Wally learnt it from the father directly.

Elder Queen: "The biomes had been sabotaged. The food stocks dwindled. Paranoia gripped your father's mind. What was it he said, as he stared out into the starless black?"

Operator: "Something's out there, kiddo… watching us."

[lean garden]

"Forced that knowledge to be known" but you literally recall that memory before wally shows up for the first time in the game

[lean garden]

^ wally only shows up at the end of this quest

He doesnt force knowledge to be known, he just gets knowledge

[humble sierra]

If I had to guess, Wally only calls you 'Kiddo' and Albrecht 'Little Bengel' because he's saying something else entirely in Void tongue— likely something dismissive— and it's the mind translating the concept of 'little creature' into something more comforting.

[tall echo]

Wally can seemingly pull information from memories

[tall echo]

Voidtongue doesn't auto-translate

[humble sierra]

Maybe not void tongue, but rather he's speaking raw "concepts". Albrecht's studies into this in search of language might have helped form void tongue? Idrk how to explain

[tall echo]

Primed Stretch

[stiff fable]

That's not what happened there. The Operator was trapped in their own history, playing out the Zariman over and over. There were no other alternates of the Operator besides the Drifter.

[brittle siren]

oh ok

[humble sierra]

Yeah

Though tbf Wally only speaks to us in Voidtongue in his 'true' form during the New War finale

The rest of the time he's speaking to us in a language we completely understand

Unlike the Cavia who sometimes sprinkle in voidtongue

[olive comet]

he rips it out of entrati

[lean garden]

Him scrolling entrati's mind to say "little bengel" is hardly "forcing knowledge to be known"

[chrome rivet]

Do we have a rough estimate on how big the Zariman is?

Like, maybe a comparison with a irl country?

[glacial bough]

It's nowehere near the size of a country

But you could comfortably house a major city population within it

[chrome rivet]

Hmm.

New York?

[manic rover]

I just now realise Lotus is referring to Kahl and Kaelli/Daughter..

[river mason]

is it true that natah is an eidolon? am reading some of the wiki years after i did the story missions.

somehow didn't know that eidolons were broken down sentients until now

[digital grail]

Yeah natah is an eidolon ordis states it in new war

[graceful swan]

She became an eidolon during New War

[graceful swan]

Just calls you whatever you’re parents called you as Wally can read minds

[tall echo]

Eidolons are specifically undead sentients

[river mason]

yeah i did get refreshed about that on the wiki. for some reason they look more nature born to me lol & what i remembered from the quest did not remember the sentient part haha

[tall echo]

The reason the plains eidolons have trees on them is because they're trying to repair themselves

It'd be kinda sad if it wasn't for the plains sentient being one of the largest and probably most dangerous sentients we know of

[river mason]

haha that's fair

ty for the info 🫶

[sweet wadi]

Is the Stalker’s appearance in Duviri canonical or purely mechanical?

[tall echo]

Yes

[sweet wadi]

Understandable

[proper barn]

Rhe eidolons are broken/dead/fragmented Sentients. Like the Eidolons in cetus are fragments of a now dead Sentient. Also each one of the Eidolons is missing a part of it its why they all have a artificial arm.

[proper barn]

Not just trees. One has a tree 1 has a rock 1 has a piece of metal.

[river mason]

wait does he look dif in duviri?

[proper barn]

Well

He kinda does if you have done jades quest.

[tall echo]

Not visual appearance

[somber lantern]

In game therr are a lot of references to villages and people's from various parts of the system
I wish we could see more of them
Not even as a big part of the lore or anything but maybe like as a mini syndicate where you can get new operator/drifter clothes

[lament stirrup]

The devs confirmed that the Stalker in Duviri is from an alternate reality like the Drifter.

[proper barn]

I mean we have the relays and the hubs but that's like about it.

[sweet wadi]

Bizarro stalker, with weapon names like ‘Tranquility’ and ‘Absolution’.

[tall echo]

Looks at jade weapon names

[devout verge]

Apparently, the devs once gave the in-game explanation "Yeah, there's plenty of places untouched by Corpus/Grineer, but they're only safe because they're flying under the radar, and Tenno visits would draw attention to them, so they're staying away."

[bright temple]

I forget

Did Albrecht partake in Kuva, or nupe?

[normal mountain]

Did until he went into the Void and met his evil reflection, the Wall Man
Then he nupe

[bright temple]

thamk

[woven coyote]

I miss cordilon

[thick ember]

I'm waiting for the Entrati family story progression, I hope we can cure Deimos and revert them back to orokin

[tall echo]

Unlikely

[spice spade]

Yall it’s lore accurate that ivara slapped Albrecht and ran off So she’s a sentient warframe queen

[tall echo]

...??

[spice spade]

Ivara slapped albrecht

[tall echo]

When

[glacial bough]

Bait is bait

[feral cape]

This is certainly something

[digital grail]

[hidden cove]

Is there a lore reason why South America is still South America?

When you go into a host migration load screen in the Plains of Eidolon you get this specific landing craft scene where you are flying towards Earth while the camera is looking at it. I just noticed this time that South America's landmass is still there, very obscured by clouds but that's definitely South America.

[proper barn]

No this is just a rare intro.

There are a few rare intro screens.

[hidden cove]

Since it's been an indeterminate amount of time between 'now' and present Origin System, and the solar system has gone through major transformations and terraforming and stuff courtesy of the Orokin, and Earth has actually been lost to the Infestation before being reclaimed thanks to Saryn, I'm surprised original landmasses are still intact.

[silk atlas]

Aren't other similar landmasses still visible on the Nav menu?

[proper barn]

Yes

[silk atlas]

Like, if it ain't broke don't fix it, clearly

[hidden cove]

Oh yeah now I take a closer look, half of the nodes are on Africa

I never realised

[proper barn]

like the out of lore reason

Is just DE used a photo of earth.

[scenic depot]

Reclaimed thanks to SARYN?

Wouldn't she make it worse because I don't think anything she can do would be good for the planet

[hidden cove]

Her Prime Trailer. Ballas suggests she killed the Infested and cured earth of it

[scenic depot]

I haven't watched like any prime trailers

[hidden cove]

'It came to me like a proverb; fight poison with poison'

Also, Warframes have fairly controlled powers

Saryn obviously makes spores and toxins and stuff but they aren't gonna go on and extinguish all life ever like a plague unless she wants it to

And Warframes can pretty much choose who does and doesn't get hurt by their abilities else there'd be a lot more friendly fire considering how Tenno do work in squads and their abilities are so destructive

[scenic depot]

The spores are probably acidic and I'm not sure if she could make them not

Saryn prob killed most of the infested (obviously forgot the ocean) and oberon did the planting after saryn accidentally destroyed it

[proper barn]

Never watched a prime trailer before

[proper barn]

Sayrn is a poison or toxin not a virus.

You know the difference right?

[normal mountain]

Take some time and go find Revenant Prime's trailer
Ballas is so confused in that one

[naive shale]

Hey I'm doing the Silver Grove quest and I'm wondering.... Did the New Loka stumble upon the Silver Grove, heard the lady sleep talking and was like "oh my gosh, the silver grove, it speaks to us!" And made a whole syndicate about it?

[tall echo]

The syndicate presumably existed before that but aside from that, pretty much

[naive shale]

Oh ok. I was confused with their lore

[north jolt]

I mean Africa is still Africa TBF

Its not like "History of Pangea" levels of far into the future

[restive river]

Heck even America the continent is still called America

At least in 1999
Though America the country goes by a different name

[north jolt]

I think the bigger question is

Are the Baltic states still fighting eachother in WF's future? irregardless of all the other conflicts going on

[proper barn]

i think the whole of earth

is mostly alt history.

[sweet wadi]

Most of it seems to be the same general events with different names and figures though.

[restive river]

It’s alt history but there’s many things that are similar

[proper barn]

also i refuse to talk about irl stuff. I wish to use my escapism to escape.

[sweet wadi]

The biggest ones seem to be general technology level and a radically different dominant religion.

[proper barn]

sure.

[north jolt]

That's fine, was just a joke anyways not a serious lore question :p

[proper barn]

yee

lmao

[restive river]

r e a l

[proper barn]

lul

I am a postitive and optismitic guy just i wanna talk about warframe lore in lore.

[scenic depot]

Poison/Toxin can't be good for plants

[proper barn]

many toxins come from plants

[north jolt]

TBF she does also literally spread "viral" procs

[fresh rover]

When will more lore 😔

I love lore I ened more

[stiff fable]

Friday devstream will tell you

[manic rover]

Stray question but can you play as the Drifter during Jade Shadows? Like, do the cutscenes when Stalker goes inside the orbiter proceed with the drifter or does it swap to the operator?

Minor detail but if it's the latter it could imply that Jade Shadows happens while the drifter is in 1999

[stiff fable]

No, forces Operator

But also Stalker was after the Operator because the Drifter isn't the expert on Warframes

[olive comet]

Best youtuber/s for lore talk?

[bright temple]

TheDsIEGE is who I usually watch

He’s speculation heavy on some stuff but still nice

CorgtheMighty has some nice shorter videos

StallordD does longer form deep dives (whenever he actually uploads)

[restive river]

Orokin Archives is the best, no theories just facts
Stallord is aight
Be wary as most loretubers aren’t great, often time confusing their own theories for facts or coming up with baseless theories

SocraTetris had some good analysis videos but he’s been getting more into some outlandish theories from what I’ve heard

Which DSiege is also guilty of
“Oh this person smiled? They’re Wally” type of theories :p

The best sources of lore are mostly going to be the orokin archives and the game itself
the archives just use and source the game itself, no theories

[proper barn]

the new wiki is also alright.

the old one was really bad for it.

but Archives is better.

[olive comet]

Awesome tysm

[high bay]

Is there an at least somewhat healthy romantic pairing(that doesn’t include the player) in Warframe’s story or is it toxicity all the way down?

[glacial bough]

Assuming healthy doesn't exclude tragic, then Konzu, Saya, and Onkko

Also Belric and Raina sort of

Ticker and their former partner

Gara and Unum if you subscribe to it

Jade and Sorren

[high bay]

So the moral of the story is to not look to Warframe when I’m having gay thoughts thinking about this one guy while listening to Igor(Tyler, The Creator album)

[glacial bough]

Warframe is pretty much either toxic or tragic, yes

[high bay]

I am sobbing and crying

[proper barn]

father mother become fine?

OH @high bay Maroo and Vairza.

[glacial bough]

Father and mother are far from romantic even now

[proper barn]

shhhhhhhh

Working on it it's fine.

[grim crater]

so were all warframes people? I know the originals like umbra were but were the later batches that were copies of the originals also people?

[lean garden]

they are people in the sense that we're making nigh-exact copies, if not exact copies, but we dont use people to make those

[restive river]

I’d def argue they’re exact since subtleties like how the frame used to hold themselves are replicated

Like if personality-based muscle memory is replicated then that’s pretty exact

[proper barn]

Umbra wasn't original

He was one of the last frames made.

[tall echo]

He is still an original tho

Not gen 1, but original

[restive river]

The only original part about him is his unique bolt and unique appearance
He’s still just an Excal

Like excal existed long before him

[neat heron]

will duviri get more updates

[proper barn]

In what way?

[neat heron]

new islands

there are islands at drift

or other stuff

too

[proper barn]

Oh idk about that but new incarnons probably. But anything can happen.

[normal mountain]

Doubt it
Then again, I didn't think Cetus would get any new content, and then Koumei decided to show up

[neat heron]

yh

what is the bleeding earth

in warframe

[lean garden]

thats a historic event in duviri

where the ground began to bleed something that might be kuva

[neat heron]

oh i thougt earth

like earth our planet

[lean garden]

its earth as in ground lol

[neat heron]

yh

[restive river]

They’ve said nothing is planned atm
But perhaps it’ll get attention later on in the current arc

[thick viper]

What is the planet where we are in 1999 ? Cuse I didn't think a bit but, we did time travel from deimos, not earth tho

[lean garden]

1999 is on earth

[tall echo]

[thick viper]

Ah space and time travel so

[devout verge]

It's still "earth". But it's clearly already another world than ours, even back then, considering that Arthur (or Eleanor? Not sure) mentions Rubedo mines, and Rubedo is some kind of uranium ruby stuff that doesn't exist in RL. And, also, all the country names are off.

[lean garden]

and that Robin Hood is a woman

[proper barn]

Yeah it's warframe.

[proper barn]

Robin hood was always a woman. She was made up.

They can be whoever you want them to be.

[lean garden]

Okay sure, the major difference between this universe and irl is that the common conception of Robin Hood of Loxley are different genders

[proper barn]

Sure.

I put estrogen in the British Water.

[digital grail]

https://tenor.com/view/moist-critical-moist-critikal-underwater-yeah-baby-woooooo-gif-24561979

[lean garden]

I hate the internet, not because of what you said, but exclusively because of the brainrot links I immediately got that leads all the way to:

https://tenor.com/view/gay-frogs-chemicals-gif-11317922

[thick viper]

Gay mountain chicken

[devout verge]

It's just that at the beginning I went "Oh, the names and phrases are slightly off, I wonder how far back the changes would need to have started for that".

And then it turns out, Rubedo isn't some future-teck space material, it's stuff you could always mine on (their) earth.

Which means that their basic atomic structure has to be different.

Which means that the Warframe world was different from ours basically from the big bang onwards.

[thick viper]

Still waiting to see argon crystals irl.

[lean garden]

Estrogen in british water > putting chemicals in the water (1)
Ivara has a Loxley alt helm, base ivara design language is that of a frog (2)
Ivara is a female frame. (3)

1 + 2 + 3 = turing the freaking frogs gay

[thick viper]

Ivara is a gay loxley frog ?

[prime cove]

I love how the context is that Alex was trying to clarify that he didn't just hate homosexuals, he just didn't like the chemicals thing. but he did it in a way that made him seem even MORE homophobic!

[devout verge]

I could take Argon crystals as a name shift, with a new, different material having gotten the name of the gas. Or something like transparent aluminum from Star Trek.

[proper barn]

He also just hates them though.

[proper barn]

Ivara we don't know. Gara and the unum where though.

[thick viper]

True, just like Tellurium

Oh hell no it exist

[tall echo]

Cool it down enough and you'll have argon crystals

I like the theory that the void denies the laws of reality so hard that argon just naturally crystallizes inside it, which would explain why they start disappearing when we take them out of the void

[raw stone]

Young Loxley. Reference to Ivara's Loxley helmet

[raw stone]

There could also be some myth and historical merging. Obviously, Robin Hood. Uncommonly, it reminds me of Jeanne D'Arc, yes the saint.

[thick viper]

Gaslight : Void is just in extreme pressure and cold temperature

[feral cape]

Voids cold

It could also just enforce entropy onto something

Sap the energy out of an object until it stops

[raw stone]

Energy does manifest as heat... approved. I guess.

[thick viper]

A zone confined where, to stay stable, it manipulates his own entropy, using Chatelier law

[tribal edge]

can you not ghost ping me?

[onyx dawn]

Chat jst like ballas was the main existential threat during and before new war
Who is the main villain now

Or are we still in the suspenseful mystery area wherein we don’t know what the main threat is

[digital grail]

The main threat is the man in the wall

[north jolt]

After Wally probably Parvos or Narmer

[digital grail]

There's gonna be alot before "after wally" and narmer and parvos are inconvenient at most

[strange turtle]

We’ve known we’re in the Void arc for quite a while now so yeah, Wally like others have said

[tall echo]

A lot is generous

[digital grail]

Sorry a while

That better

[candid elm]

Likely narmer, parvos isn't...well he's not the worst thing compared to everything else

Then again...depending on what happens to wally parvos might take control of the void in some aspect, since he seems to have his own little pocket type thing (the granum void) which he has power over

So who knows

[raw stone]

We need to evict Gramps from the void zone

[lunar charm]

What could this be used for?

[smoky solstice]

I mean Narmer is the obvious threat but I mean given that the threat of Wally is existential, I assume there will be some Pazuul shenanigans there for some other existential threat, idk if you can go back on the stakes like this

like at first it was just like ok Ballas rules the origin system, that sucks, but now it's like the destruction of the universe as we know it is at stake so it feels like whatever comes next will have to surpass that

idk if it matters though, I think we have another good 2 or 3 main story quests before the void war saga ends

I doubt they'll wrap it all up in the next quest but ig it could be possible if they release like shorter companion quests to prep us for some final confrontation in Tau

also I've noticed from listening to the little bit of Periphery I have that the sounds are kinda giving me 1999 vibes already. And these songs weren't even made for Warframe. Just interesting how it kinda feels like they could fit perfectly in certain contexts

even on a level of like scoring certain cutscenes or something

really excited to see what they do now that they're gonna be making specifically something Warframe related

[idle salmon]

quick question is sevagoth and his shadow 2 different entities or are they just 2 parts of a whole?

[tall echo]

It doesn't

[tall echo]

Yes.

[smoky solstice]

doesn't what

[tall echo]

The next threat doesn't have to surpass wally

[smoky solstice]

I mean I guess not necessarily

[tall echo]

A threat is a threat

[smoky solstice]

yeah, I could see a smaller scale threat

I like how the Drifter is basically like the Avatar lmao

I mean I can't be the first one that has made that connection but it's just fun that we're basically keeping the universe in balance

except in this case in balance means permanent war

ig maybe one day, if Warframe ever like ends, they'll maybe do something to bring the world to actual peace

but that would have to be the final thing they ever do

[tall echo]

And then the fire nation attacks

[smoky solstice]

what would be the warframe version of the fire nation? I feel like the most similar faction would be the sentients

except they weren't motivated purely by imperialism so

it's a little different but I feel like they're definitely the faction most similar

everything was like Orokin Empire and then the Sentients attacked...

[tall echo]

Nah just the literal fire nation

[smoky solstice]

honestly that would be heat

[tall echo]

...yes

[smoky solstice]

from some like Omega System or whatever, we never see them coming

[tall echo]

Literally

[smoky solstice]

and they set everything they come in contact with ablaze

and the whole conflict is about not letting them spread, like an actual fire

I mean ig it's a little derivative of the whole void thing going on rn

what if Warframe is still like alive 20 years from now and they run out of like original stuff to do so they just start licensing stuff from other franchises, putting it in the Warframe universe

the WCU

[tall echo]

Another idea that is definitely not related to my brain aggressively collecting song lyrics: discount persona plot

[humble sierra]

Nick Fury shows up to recruit Excalibur

[tall echo]

You'll never see it coming

[north jolt]

TBH narratively I don't think you CAN really go beyond a universal threat, least not in any way that's meaningful so either Wally is going to stay around in some shape or form for a long time, or they actually will just downscale the actual threats after him and shift to smaller narratives

[tall echo]

Local forma shop has been robbed

Suspected culprit: darvo bek

Do a complete 180 in threat scale

[north jolt]

I was going to also say they could try and do a JJBA by having the scale and stakes just be all over the place, but that mostly works because JJ is divided up into separate parts with their own unique setting and cast of characters, effectively their own separate yet connected stories. Warframe (unless they do something crazy like a spinoff) is a single continuous narrative so pulling that off well is less likely

[smoky solstice]

You can't go beyond it but you can match it, all you need is an existential threat, that doesn't need a really powerful void entity

But yeah, I mean I can see more Ballas level threats

More of a threat level dusk if you will

[north jolt]

True, but then I would be concerned with that just being overdone to an extent. Kinda like how in Marvel they face off against existential threats like every week (being hyperbolic dont @ me)

[smoky solstice]

Well yeah but each threat has already been like a whole arc you know

[north jolt]

I think even if they did introduce a new existential threat, a sort of winding down so to speak would be beneficial in order to properly build it up

[tall echo]

We have at least two more potential plots to deal with; narmer and tau

[smoky solstice]

Not like an Avengers style oh here's this thing that's gonna destroy the world, oh it's dead by the end of the movie, well anyway

I mean Marvel played into it at least

[tall echo]

Narmer is heavily connected to major gameplay stuff, probably not gonna change anytime soon

[north jolt]

Yeah like so far in Warframe even threats long since dealt with still have lasting effects (like Narmer)

[smoky solstice]

Going heavy on like the politics of having a group of all powerful beings and all that

[north jolt]

Also I think Ballas might be the only WF villian so far to actually be legitimately dead. Dead dead

Maybe also Tyl depending on order of events

[humble sierra]

Alad V potentially too

[tall echo]

As of 1999, tyl is likely dead

[north jolt]

Alad V never dies

[smoky solstice]

Interesting point, but I feel like they set up something bigger with Pazuul already, they can't just leave it there in perpetuity.
Ofc we'll get more details on who they are most likely in this very arc, but I'm thinking there has to eventually be a confrontation there
What happens to Veilbreaker afterwards? Not sure, maybe becomes non-canon, although that would be kinda lame so yeah, not sure

[north jolt]

Probably, I'm just not 100% sure if the mirror defense stuff is meant to take place before or after we sink his lab, but Im guessing before

[humble sierra]

Since it's on Mars and unlocks before Natah, probably before

[tall echo]

It's accessible long before the implied kill at the end of the natah quest

[smoky solstice]

Wait is it implied he died in the explosion with Veso? I don't think he comes up afterwards

[north jolt]

See this is where I as a older play get mixed up sometimes cause its not like the game tells me WHAT order a new game mode is introduced for actual new players :p

[tall echo]

Nope

[humble sierra]

Yeah he hasn't had any involvement since then. Thats mostly because there's no place for him in any of the updates since New War, though

It's entirely possible he was on a separate ship to the one that blew up

[north jolt]

I miss Veso

[tall echo]

Teko will always be remembered

[smoky solstice]

But how does he survive? Like maybe he wasn't on the ship but he specifically wants to stop the ship firing before the Sentients board "them", and idk why the Sentients would be boarding a ship to take over Alad V's portion of the Corpus if it's not the ship Alad V is actually on

[north jolt]

But yeah Alad V historically is only slightly less immortal then Wukong so I wouldn't be surprised if he pops up at some point in the future

"Tenno! you won't believe who I just made an amazing deal with"

https://tenor.com/view/albrecht-entrati-the-man-in-the-wall-warframe-1999-warframe-you-are-late-warframe-jojo-gif-4432154459658682236

[smoky solstice]

Yooo, maybe we meet him in Tau and he's just chilling with Pazuul

[smoky solstice]

Or this yeag

[north jolt]

Im betting on him making a deal with Wally to save his own skin, because he absolutely would

[smoky solstice]

Probably more comedic that way

[tall echo]

He wants the entire fleet to stop firing

[smoky solstice]

Idk, I like the idea that he doesn't know he made a deal with the proverbial devil and he just thinks "wow, this guy's a sucker, this deal is so good for me!"

Proverbial? Did I use that word right?

[north jolt]

OH! that's another thing too but Im just gonna quickly throw it out there. End of the Whispers quest when Arthur makes it to that subway to meet Entrati and "You are late" scene plays, AND we see that Wally can just straight up make clones or duplicates of people he's come into contact with. Im not sure how either or both will pay off, but these seem like very not subtle details to just overlook

[smoky solstice]

Ig yeah, would be kind of a lame way for him to go anyway so it's probably not what happened

[north jolt]

Faust but dumber

[tall echo]

He can copy people he's come into contact with, nothing new there

[north jolt]

Im saying it seems pretty relevant

[smoky solstice]

Like Teshin's death was abrupt already, that one had impact though because of the fact that the whole losing the war thing happened all at once, like damn, I expected us to go big here or something
But in Alad V's case it's more like "oh so he just dies off screen on a random corpus ship because of insubordination", kinda lame in comparison

[tall echo]

Relevant, yes. New, no

[north jolt]

Well Im not saying its new :p

But the ending monologue for whispers and, depending on how you want to interpret it the subway scene both to me seem like some very heavy handed foreshadowing

[smoky solstice]

Have you done the Hex?

[north jolt]

Yes

News Year kiss and all

[smoky solstice]

So I mean we already have a pay off for the Wally shapeshifting thing

Am I misunderstanding something here?

[north jolt]

Depends what you mean?

[smoky solstice]

Him shapeshifting into both Entrati and Loid? Or do you think DE are gonna do something more with that

More substantial than just like ok he can shapeshift

[feral cape]

Anything that is a threat to sol works as a threat simply because
"I'm gonna blow up earth"
"But earth's where I parked the car"

[smoky solstice]

True

[north jolt]

I think they might do more with that, Im just not sure what exactly

[proper barn]

I think Pazuul is gonna try to rebuild the solar rail

[tall echo]

I'm gonna take all the argon out of the void and hide it

[feral cape]

Like being a threat to the universe is cool and all but like where in the universe other than sol matters

[proper barn]

But that's just me.

[smoky solstice]

I mean it could be used for a twist of some sort but I feel like DE need to tread very carefully here since it's very easy to make a twist like that be very lame

[north jolt]

True but it just keeps being brought up so much that I doubt ALL we're going to see of it is Wally just using it to mess with Entrati

[winged kestrel]

My unwanted suggestion yet again but. What if DE make a whole story mode were we get to play as night wave women whole time finds out she’s Jade 😮🫣 in warframe form and had a baby with with shadow dude.

[tall echo]

No.

[winged kestrel]

Yes

[tall echo]

Just. No.

[north jolt]

Jesse wtf are you talking about

[smoky solstice]

Wtf did I just read

[winged kestrel]

Absolutely yes

[smoky solstice]

How much

Did you smoke I mean

[tall echo]

Nothing about that even makes sense

[winged kestrel]

It actually does

Do u know Nora lore

[smoky solstice]

Jade's dead

[winged kestrel]

Then why we still playing with her

[north jolt]

Do YOU know Nora lore?

[smoky solstice]

Same as how we play as other warframes - we replicate the originals with blueprints

[winged kestrel]

Nora???

[smoky solstice]

Jade very clearly died in childbirth during Jade Shadows

[silk atlas]

And Nora is very clearly not a Warframe

[north jolt]

What ever the opposite of cooking is that's what you're doing

[tall echo]

Do you know any lore

[winged kestrel]

U guys just don’t wanna see Nora shine shaking my head

[smoky solstice]

True

[north jolt]

Get out the kitchen, back to the dish washer!

[smoky solstice]

We're just haters

[winged kestrel]

Are yall ok in there?

[tall echo]

Are you

[winged kestrel]

I think it’s more then just hate but ok

[smoky solstice]

What is it

[winged kestrel]

I’m fantastic

[smoky solstice]

Speak your mind iggyflow, tell us like it is

[tall echo]

I have a lot of nitain but you clearly have more

[north jolt]

Konzu being too generous with the nitain

[winged kestrel]

Since its black history month still ima put her face up here and leave it at that ✊🏾

[smoky solstice]

Unfortunately though I think it's mostly over for Nora lore, no? I feel like anything substantial Nora related would have to also be Nightwave related and DE have sworn off actual like Nightwave storylines, so idk if we can expect something more

[winged kestrel]

Good day

[tall echo]

Ok?

[smoky solstice]

Maybe one day

[smoky solstice]

Ok I'm thinking 2 grams, final answer

[north jolt]

Tbh while she is a cool character I dont think she was ever meant to be a DEEP character, if that makes sense

[tall echo]

Eventually there will be more nightwave stories

[winged kestrel]

She should Def be apart of the hex

[tall echo]

She's not in 1999

[winged kestrel]

How else would she be apart of the ship comms

[smoky solstice]

I have never seen a single person cook this much

[north jolt]

She's kinda two different references rolled into one: The pilot lady from the original Dark Sector trailer and the radio hostess (forgot her name) from The Warriors

[smoky solstice]

Nora in 1999, why the hell not

[winged kestrel]

Exactly

[tall echo]

Sarcasm

[winged kestrel]

She did so much through out the years

She deserves a Grammy

[smoky solstice]

Woah and hey, the New War drifter thing right, she's hella glazing us, maybe there's some previous connection to bring it all together

[winged kestrel]

For best radio host in the galaxy

[smoky solstice]

Iggyflow cooking a lasagna of a theory here

[north jolt]

More like midsagna

[restive river]

Idk if they swore off it exactly
More so changed their focus to the main story :p

[winged kestrel]

https://youtu.be/_sMPyOTuqFg?si=SR3y0LMpr865aazn

I don’t wanna date no hex I want her

[tall echo]

She doesn't even play any music, what a boring radio station

[north jolt]

She plays the Warframe ambient soundtracks

[winged kestrel]

I want her to come to my hotel 😂

In the hex

[north jolt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfzSkJvK5PE also sauce

[smoky solstice]

Well anyway, I need to go to sleep, y'all have fun with this Nora thing

[winged kestrel]

😂

[tall echo]

This is not fun

[winged kestrel]

But lowkey tho which frame would she be if that was true

[tall echo]

Not painful enough to achieve dark souls fun state

[north jolt]

Jokes aside, since DE is basically becoming a glorified music studio anyways adding separate radio stations we can tune into, with Nora's being the main one for music would be cool

[tall echo]

Banshee

[winged kestrel]

🤔

[tall echo]

Music-related but also stealthy, just as nightwave is too

[winged kestrel]

You do know Octavia is a black womens name to right

[tall echo]

Ok

But octavia is named after the music term

[winged kestrel]

She plays radio on her weapon I guess

I know octive

But Nora def deserves to be a frame that’s all I’ll say

[tall echo]

If the name is your only reason then that's kinda bland

[proper barn]

She has transmissions about this btw lmao. That a bunch of people offered to marry her.

But she isn't interested in anyone right now.

[winged kestrel]

Also my first idea that warframe should be a full world sandbox and not a room sandbox

[winged kestrel]

I don’t blame her everybodies infested

[proper barn]

What

The tenno aren't infested.

[tall echo]

There are a lot of normal people. Like. A lot

[proper barn]

Yeah.

[winged kestrel]

Nora is old

Tenno is like 19

Well 15

[proper barn]

The operator is that

[winged kestrel]

Right

[proper barn]

The Drifter is older.

That's why in 1999 you have to be the Drifter.

[winged kestrel]

Well I mean will never know unless we learn her past I guess

[tall echo]

I want a voruna protoframe for no particular reason

[tall echo]

We know that she's probably from cetus

Guess that's something at least

[restive river]

Huh??

I swear we have some bits about her past but I’m not sure

[tall echo]

She talks about the unum

Maybe even to her, since both say "dreamers"

[restive river]

Eh, she knows a lot of things
Idk if her talking about the unum is enough

I mean
She doesn’t even know what the unum is

[proper barn]

Okay the like CRAZY THEORY is she like little duck is a agent for the Quills.

I mean does anyone know what the unum is?

[restive river]

The people of cetus refer to her as the tower, no?

[proper barn]

No they say Unum.

[restive river]

No I mean like
They view the tower as her

[proper barn]

People not from Cetus say tower.

[restive river]

They get their meat from the Unum
The meat is from the tower

[proper barn]

Oh yeah.

[restive river]

"Well, it's early where Nora is, and, as she wipes the sleep from her eyes, she wonders… does Unum ever leave that Tower? Can she leave that Tower? Who is she? What is she? Someone in Cetus must have answers. Come on, sweet things. Give it up."

The way this is worded makes me think she knows of the Unum but not as much as someone from Cetus

If I had to guess she’s originally from some other colony and now she just drifts about, gathering what info she can, helping us where she can

It is interesting she calls her audience dreamers and we seem to be her primary audience (we being the tenno) but considering iirc she mentions how her grandmother(?) or mother (idr) told her stories about some of the Orokin
Specifically Nihil

I’m trying to say I doubt she knows the tenno’s secret

[winged kestrel]

And another thing fortuna roads should be a place were we can race our atomcycles

[feral cape]

To be frank I think nobody actually knows what unum is

Like is she just the tower is she some wandering spirit is she a person

[tall echo]

Unum is unum

[feral cape]

Thats a who

[tall echo]

That's-a mario?

[restive river]

I mean yeah but my point is the people of Cetus refer to the tower itself as the Unum :p

[raw pecan]

I just have to ask. Which side is Nef Anyo on anyway?!? He is almost single(golden)handedly bankrolling the Tenno operations in the origin system via The Index.

[proper barn]

He wants to win.

He just will take our money.

[kindred barn]

How often if at all do you think Stalker and Umbra encountered each other?

[feral cape]

The entire solar system is a really big place so unless you are using umbra i doubt they ever see eachother

[digital grail]

In story I'm not sure they kinda abandoned umbra after his quest

But I'm sure there's plenty fan fic

[strange turtle]

Trying to farm and Stalker shows up but Umbra’s in a squad with Jade so they just have a smoke break together

[naive shale]

I wonder how Stalker is doing these days. I wonder if he'll ever ask us to babysit for him.

[thick viper]

"Yo, better see ma son or I break yo legs" -says the dad

[graceful swan]

No, he doesn’t like you

Even ran away from Hunhow

[tall echo]

That was because the safety of his base was compromised

[smoky solstice]

hey, when does the dialogue between wally and the operator play, where wally asks about the operator killing Isaah and the operator says that yeah, that's how they remember it

and wally is like satisfied of the fact that the operator thinks they were the one who killed Isaah

[lean garden]

the sacrifice

right after you complete the quest

[smoky solstice]

why don't I remember this

because the implications are insane and now I'm wondering whether DE removed that part

but ig it's possible I just didn't pay attention to it or somehow skipped that dialogue

I mean in between the coke lines, dsiege does bring up some good points, and him pointing out this line, like it's so huge

[lean garden]

oh boy, what coke addled speculation does he meander about with that

[smoky solstice]

the operator essentially had their memories altered and Wally is kinda like "oh it's nice to know that I can do that"
ofc I'm not saying that Wally is the reason the operator thinks that, just that he's aware that there's a way to do that

[chilly iron]

Oh gods, their memory hasn't changed, they were just with Umbra to experience it

[lean garden]

yea they just had a cheeky lil vulcan mind meld

[smoky solstice]

uh it's his video on what the operator actually promised Wally, I only watched half of it but it seemed like one theory he posited is that we promised to destroy the Orokin completely and now we're kinda going back on it since we're not killing Albrecht

somehting like that

[lean garden]

bruh

[smoky solstice]

this part was relevant for the part where he analysed the prelude to war scenes, in particular the old war scene where the Lotus is surrounded by Tenno, drawing attention to the eyes, that they're blackened, the fact that we don't remember anything, mainly with the conclusion that if we take it at face value (keeping in mind that it is Wally leading us to all these areas, so he could be altering what actually happened as well), it seems like Wally is the one in control there

[lean garden]

Lotus is the one in control tho

[smoky solstice]

yeah but well we know that she's not really always directly in control

[lean garden]

she's also not really had to deal with wally much until now

[smoky solstice]

and there even could've been Wally shenanigans regarding Lotus' identity

[lean garden]

definitely not

thats ballas's purview

[smoky solstice]

I don't remember all the details but it's not really out of the question

considering that the whole New War saga was the Lotus essentially being manipulated at all times

[lean garden]

its very out of the question when we know who is the source of the shenanigans

[smoky solstice]

I mean I do still find the fact that the Tenno's eyes are all blackened in the scene

they don't really look conscious

it's just a strange detail to have

[lean garden]

sure, but its not good evidence to suggest that wally was involved in the Lotus's DID, when we know a certain ballsack is responsible

[smoky solstice]

and it would make sense for the operator to not remember when they weren't actually conscious for that and were being puppeted

[smoky solstice]

we're talking about the Old War stuff, right?

[lean garden]

yes

[smoky solstice]

alright, yeah, I think dsiege came to a similar conclusion, honestly I don't remember all of it

[lean garden]

ballsack was through and through responsible for the mess in the Lotus's head

[smoky solstice]

but regardless of all of that, it seems interesting to me that not only do the operators look Wally controlled but Wally also seems to be very satisfied of the fact that memory manipulation is very easily possible to do for the operator

I mean we literally manipulated ourselves into thinking we killed Isaah

[lean garden]

mind you we vulcan mind melded with a frame

[smoky solstice]

and Wally is also leading us to all of the prelude cutscenes, all of it just seems strange

[lean garden]

if wally wants to play with our memories the only way he was shown was through the vulcan mind meld

and we have like, a very fun dose of love to give

[smoky solstice]

also, it just feels like the promise being to destroy the Orokin seems like fairly natural within the plot, I mean it makes a lot of sense, and it also makes sense why now Wally considers us to be running from the deal, since we're not cleaning up what's left of the Orokin

Albrecht in particular

[lean garden]

but it was also like highly unneccesary

[smoky solstice]

idk what vulcan mind meld means

[lean garden]

hell the inclusion of the tenno delayed sentient victory

[lean garden]

uuuuuuuuh, pacific rim drifting?

[smoky solstice]

sure, the Orokin won against the Sentients, and then the Tenno killed all of the Orokin

[smoky solstice]

I have no idea what any of those words mean

I think pacific rim is a game?

[lean garden]

without the tenno, sentient victory would have occured

[lean garden]

movie

[smoky solstice]

ok what does that mean in English

[chilly iron]

Sharing thoughts and feelings as if you were both feeling them, like being one mind

[lean garden]

two minds link up, share stuff

"From my mind, to your mind"

[smoky solstice]

ok sure, I'm just saying that Wally being hella satisfied about this just seems like it's implying something more to it than just

idk, nothing really? like what does it mean then

[chilly iron]

He could be happy that we're stewing in guilt

[smoky solstice]

if not Wally being hella excited about the notion of essentially being able to change how the Operator remembers things

[chilly iron]

Because he didn't

We know that's not our memory

[smoky solstice]

the line is specifically something like "is that how you remember it? good..."

[chilly iron]

But we felt it like we did

[lean garden]

Wally is characterised to feed off our pain in a sense, taking on Umbra's guilt is an extension of that pain

[smoky solstice]

we as in the player know, but it seems like the operator genuinely remembers it as he was part of the whole umbra killing his son thing

[chilly iron]

I believe the sequence is meant to illustrate that we do this with all of our frames. We show them empathy, that's the basis of our connection.
We would be useless if we thought we did everything every frame did.

[smoky solstice]

well we don't have to do it with the ones we have since they're not the originals
we did probably have to do it with the originals, but it seems like there were many Tenno, each controlling one warframe, not multiple, so at that point it's just one point of trauma

to share

[lean garden]

I mean... its an exact replica

Umbra isnt even the original umbra

[smoky solstice]

and the reason I say that it's not like each Tenno is assigned multiple is because of the Jade lore, it seems like the one operator controlling her went to sleep and that's it, no one else interfered

[smoky solstice]

...lacking any sentience

[feral cape]

Man that movie was good i wish they made a second one

[smoky solstice]

what trauma is there to share if there aren't memories to interact with

the warframes we have don't have memories, only Umbra does

[feral cape]

Memories are there

[smoky solstice]

and we had to go through a whole quest to control Umbra

[lean garden]

I mean we can easily assume thats because no one could tell that the operator was taking a snooze on the job

[feral cape]

Because umbra was designed that way

Umbra transference bolt is unique allowing to maintain sentience

[lean garden]

the operator was linked, jade moved and did her job, why would anyone swap the tenno out

[smoky solstice]

yeah, that's how all the warframes worked, so why would they ever swap any of the tenno out

[lean garden]

still an exact replica, as demonstrated by how easy it was to exactly replicate umbra

[feral cape]

Also memories in warframe seem to posses a level of genetic attachment

[smoky solstice]

it seems clearly implied by that that each tenno controlled one warframe

[lean garden]

at a time sure

but evidently given how the orbitor is equipped, each operator would have kept multiple warframes

[smoky solstice]

my point is that they don't have sentience, they don't have memories we can interact with, and the reason we know this is because Ordis specifically tells us in the Sacrifice that Warframes don't have memories, meaning this is the first time we had to do any of the trauma control stuff we used to need to do in the Old War

so the replicated Warframes are clearly not the same in this regard

[sage trellis]

Operator: "This one does"

Literally in the quest my man

[smoky solstice]

yes, Umbra, not any of the other Warframes

[chilly iron]

I can't remember but doesn't Drifter say in a chat that they remember movements that belong to the frame when they use it?

[smoky solstice]

I don't understand what this is supposed to contradict?

[lean garden]

Ordis specifically tells us in the Sacrifice that Warframes don't have memories
Except this is in the context that warframes are only transference proxies, which we quickly learn in the quest, they very much are not

[sage trellis]

Yeah with Quincy at one point

[lean garden]

yeap, they talk about the stances

should lead to quincy remarking about gender

[smoky solstice]

yes, various mannerisms and whatever else, still not enough to imply sentience since, again, before the Sacrifice we were clearly ignorant of the fact that Warframes could actually have any sort of memories or consciousness

[chilly iron]

So that's a memory from the frame, which means there's something there

[smoky solstice]

yes, my point is that Ordis and the Operator don't know, which means that the other Warframes don't work in any way similar

which, going back to my original point, means that Umbra is unique in this regard and we didn't have to do any of the trauma sharing stuff we did for Umbra

[feral cape]

Yes umbra is unique

[sage trellis]

The original reason for the tenno controlling frame was the gen 1 frames going crazy

[lean garden]

which means that the other Warframes don't work in any way similar
Not the necessary conclusion. It only means that neither bothered to check otherwise, because they were told otherwise, until they learned how warframes were truly made

[smoky solstice]

which means we don't have to be riddled in trauma by remembering everything all the Warframes regret as something we did
which ultimately means that it's not unfeasible that the Operator does genuinely remember that they killed Isaah and therefore it's not just like a symbollic I killed Isaah

[feral cape]

Is this not just the difference between sympathy and empathy?

[smoky solstice]

it's an actual I killed Isaah

[smoky solstice]

it's neither, because the Operator remembers the whole Isaah thing as something they did, not just Umbra

[lean garden]

Silvana engaged in transference with Titania, and she remarked it being like a stain on their mind

[smoky solstice]

empathy would imply that they know it's something they didn't do, they just relate to that feeling

[lean garden]

"These past weeks, I've been secretly testing Transference on myself. I can only survive short bursts – linking to Titania the way only Tenno can stand. I've never felt anything like it. A tortured presence, like an evil ink, staining my mind. But… it worked. I'm going to use this wrong to make right.

[smoky solstice]

which seems like not what's happening here

[lean garden]

given that the tenno are involved in this iteration of the warframe project, the subsequent titania should not be autonomous like the pre-tenno batch of frames

[smoky solstice]

why not?

are you implying the Orokin found some other way to make Warframes to completely remove their humanity once they realised they don't need it?

[chilly iron]

So if you put yourself here, and you have no breaks in your memory.
You know you connected with a warframe to help him through his trauma.
Why would you, knowing all the before and after, think that you somehow traveled back in time to kill his son?

[lean garden]

yeap

[smoky solstice]

because you don't know the before and after, your memory being altered automatically means that you don't know what memories you had before, or in other words, the Operator doesn't know that they didn't use to think they killed Isaah before their interaction with Umbra

[lean garden]

Insert Transference Bolts

[chilly iron]

That doesn't make any logical sense, they know how Transference works

[smoky solstice]

if I had a memory inserted right now that I wrote an exam yesterday, I'd think I wrote an exam yesterday, I wouldn't know of the fact that I didn't use to think this

[chilly iron]

They would be reminded every time they're with Umbra

[smoky solstice]

reminded of what?

[chilly iron]

Of the whole sequence we went through

[smoky solstice]

and what about the whole sequence contradicts the memory?

[lean garden]

if you had a memory inserted right now that you wrote einsteins theory of relativity, would you not question how could it be possible that you remember such a thing, despite it being physically impossible for you to have done so?

[chilly iron]

The fact that we weren't there in the past?
If you know you went into a building, then out of a building, you can't just suddenly believe you went into a building, were in a shootout in another country, then left that original building

[smoky solstice]

if I was 100% sure of it, I'd probably change the facts around it to fit my memory, like idk, I'd think maybe I accidentally plagiarized it without knowing, aka read about it somewhere and rewrote it, or something like that

[feral cape]

We as the tenno can logically conclude we didn't kill Issah with like any semblance of critical thought
"Why do I have a warframe body"
"Why is this body different from every memory"
"Who is issah"
"Why am i in a bed with ballas looking over me"

[smoky solstice]

we know ALL of this information after the fact

[lean garden]

so in essence, youre saying that the operator would logically conclude that the memory cannot exist in its current shape

[feral cape]

Also were literally told umbras bolt flows in reverse moving his memories into our brain

[chilly iron]

And we are given no indication that any memory was changed
It's not as exciting but "I was with him in his memory as he killed his son and it felt very real, so I feel that weight as if I killed him" is likely more true

[smoky solstice]

do y'all not understand how memory works, like if we know about this information now, it's not hard to conclude later that we always knew this information to fit another reality which we are convinced of

memory isn't some rigid thing, and the operator CLEARLY states that the way they remembered the whole thing is that they were the one who actually killed Isaah, not just Umbra. Wally even laughs at the fact that that's how we remember it.

like if the operator was only like empathizing or something else, they wouldn't say "I killed Isaah" to Wally, they wouldn't feel guilty about it, I mean maybe they'd feel sorta guilty because of the whole transference thing but they'd know it's all just transference nonsense

they remember it as if that's how it went down

[restive river]

We remember killing Isaah through Umbra’s eyes because he had killed Isaah

[lean garden]

do you not understand that this weakens the implication that "wally knows he can change our memory" because there would be appropriate balancing measures to reorientate the operator

[smoky solstice]

and due to the fact that our subjective perspective is fragile, it's not really out of the question that if you get mindf'ed enough, you're going to genuinely think something else happened

[smoky solstice]

okay? that's what I said

[lean garden]

like since memory is not a rigid thing, it then stands that the ability to alter memory starts to lose its gravity

[feral cape]

Also how does us acknowledging we have umbras few memories mean wally can change our memories

[smoky solstice]

I'm not saying it's a necessary conclusion, I just find it odd that he's really satisfied about the fact that it is how we remember it

[feral cape]

Like we only have umbras memories because of the transference process

[smoky solstice]

and that DE went out of their way to show that interaction

[restive river]

Lets also not forget that like
The Orokin literally put memories into funny little “stars”

[smoky solstice]

how does it lose its gravity?

[feral cape]

Its a real shame maroo melts those

[lean garden]

we know that wally takes pleasure in our suffering, we now bear umbra's suffering through the killing of ishah

[feral cape]

Those are like a black box of old times

[smoky solstice]

memory is still the thing we 100% rely on in our daily lives, same for the operator

[restive river]

Eh they were Orokin memories

[smoky solstice]

if you change the operator's memories, you change reality to the operator

[restive river]

Plus we willingly give the stars to her

I doubt Wally changed our memories
Most it seems he’s been able to do is possess us briefly and read our memories

[lean garden]

but its not a permanent effect evidently by the mechanisms you agree with, which means that it has a remedy

poof, the gravity drops

[chilly iron]

It is not impossible to think that we understand we are given a foreign memory and can remember it as such

[smoky solstice]

what?

why is it not a permanent effect

because it can be changed? how does that at all make it have less gravity?

best case the operator thinks they're insane and can't be trusted

[lean garden]

because in your own words "memory is not a rigid thing", meaning that what was done can be undone

ergo, not permanent