lore-discussion

[stiff fable]

Right now it's off-screen help and the mirror puzzles but there might have been a "Duviri Operator mode" deal where you ported in to set stuff up for the Drifter in setpieces

[quartz sky]

Very on theme with 1999, helping the hex

[stiff fable]

Pretty similar yeah

So, Westerns

[smoky solstice]

it seems doubtful that this was considered to a large degree though, considering that this was meant to be a quest introduced immediately to new players

or was it at first not intended to be that?

[stiff fable]

Wasn't supposed to be at first, that came with the third version, which is basically what we got

[quartz sky]

Probably not initially though yeah

[smoky solstice]

oh gotcha

[quartz sky]

Because it's a living medium rn and devs are active we'll probably see all kinds of story and lore adjustments

[stiff fable]

First version: Jupiter (scrapped early)
Second version: What we saw in the trailer, VERY Western, Operator directly helping Drifter reach Zariman
Third version: Basically what we got, may not have had the spiral yet

Oh there's also cut dialogue from Fortuna where NPCs will talk about getting food supplies from Duviri

Back when it was going to be a real place and not a void-place

[quartz sky]

I'm reading about all these famous westerns actually being adaptations of samurai films

[stiff fable]

Yes that's it

[smoky solstice]

it's just kinda sad for me to some extent because here's DE shipping a really cool quest experience to new players to hopefully show them a taste of what's happening later in the storyline and then the community craps on them for even the notion that the quest might spoil Second Dream lmao, and then they put the quest off until after the Second Dream, essentially ruining the whole point

[stiff fable]

That's not why DE changed it

[smoky solstice]

it was not because of the narrative?

[stiff fable]

DE changed it because the new players were confused why the base game didn't play like Duviri

So originally you could start the entire game with Duviri, and later you had to play Awakening to get to Duviri

And then DE looked at the player stats and realized people who played Duviri early were getting confused by terminology and bouncing off the base game harder than ever

[quartz sky]

I do wish the drifter had the duviri play style all the time

When you use transference

[stiff fable]

Eh Duviri enemies are way less tanky

[quartz sky]

Fair

[stiff fable]

And are programmed to only attack you one at a time

In regular star chart you'd just get deleted out of hand

Anyway

[smoky solstice]

that sounds like... I mean I don't know exactly why DE would lie about this but as someone who started playing the game in the Duviri Experience, this may be the stupidest thing I've read all year

first off, when you boot the game for the first time, you're booted directly into the tutorial, including the Vor's prize quest still. You cannot just choose to play the Duviri Experience. Maybe they changed this eventually so that was my experience, again, having started playing in the expansion this quest released in but other players could choose otherwise earlier? But regardless, if it was just the case that players were confused about why Warframe doesn't play like Duviri, making it so the quest was only available post-tutorial should have fixed this

keeping that in mind, shipping it off conveniently to after the Second Dream with the reason that suppossedly new players were confused about why this gamemode, specifically shown to be completely separate from what you're introduced to as soon as you start the game, doesn't play like the rest of the game

[stiff fable]

Real Westerns are set before and after the Civil War, when the US was expanding to the West (with all that entails) and didn't have full control over the territory it claimed

[stiff fable]

No, you could actually originally start with Vor's Prize or Awakening, that was the first thing they changed

[quartz sky]

That's crazy

[smoky solstice]

you mean you could origianlly start with duviri experience instead of the Awakening into Vor's Prize?

[stiff fable]

Yes

[quartz sky]

Then spaghetti westerns?

[smoky solstice]

ok, but that's it

that should've fixed the confusion, why ship it to 6 planets away from the beginning

[stiff fable]

Because it didn't fix the confusion

[smoky solstice]

that just does not at all sound like the reason they actually did it lol

[strange plinth]

duviri as a concept is great as an early-game access to equipment that you don't have (and a way to, through the circuit, get it)
though it would definitely need like. restructuring. to avoid the previously mentioned issue
duviri, lore-wise, should be locked behind new war entirely imo

[stiff fable]

They were getting support questions from people about why they were losing weapons that they got (at the start of a Duviri cycle), how to get weapons (because they forgot how to use the market), and people were getting stuck in Duviri and quitting entirely

That last one actually happened to a friend of mine

He refuses to ever play the game again because he hated Duviri as a MR0

[smoky solstice]

ok, look, when you put Duviri in a separate tab found on the navigation, clearly communicated to be something completely different, then you boot into it, you're met with completely different movements and attacks from Warframe, it seems to play like a roguelike, something completely separate from Warframe

like not only should just the first parts I talked about communicate quite clearly that this is a separate gamemode within Warframe, most other looter-shooters/ARPGs have literally done the same thing of introducing a roguelike into the game, this shouldn't be some alien concept to anyone

[quartz sky]

I will say that it feels super separate from the rest of the game. I don't know many games that have an entirely different fighting mechanic before

[stiff fable]

Okay, I'm going to let you in on a secret

people are stupid

SO stupid

You have NO IDEA how stupid people are

[quartz sky]

Also kids play this game

Fairly young too

[stiff fable]

In this Discord every day we howl about how Warframe players can't read

[quartz sky]

(me, I can't read)

[stiff fable]

(shh neither can I)

People in this Discord have asked why they keep dying, and when we ask what their build is it turns out they never modded their Warframes

Which you have to do to progress to Mercury

[strange plinth]

given warframe players' tendency to not read, this doesn't surprise me
w/o it saying 'this is a roguelike gamemode. please know what a roguelike is.', i don't doubt new people couldn't understand why they didn't have access to weapons that they used.

[quartz sky]

They may need a lotus audio gentle parenting people into it

[stiff fable]

My personal favorite is always people complaining about being locked into The New War, or being disgusted by the content of Jade Shadows

[quartz sky]

Lmao

[stiff fable]

https://tenor.com/view/i-tried-to-warn-you-genya-safin-daisy-head-shadow-and-bone-i-already-give-you-a-heads-up-gif-15640783824651589152

[quartz sky]

That part i did read and buckled in

[smoky solstice]

ok first off, the latter problem hasn't been fixed, in fact, none of these issues were fixed by moving it to past Second Dream.

The problem is that DE in no way communicates that the Market is something you should care about unless you're thinking of spending money on the game. Was just in the #1197322290166251680 channel telling a new player to pay attention to it because they said they were specifically not paying any attention to it as they don't intend to spend Platinum. In other words, an issue that is unadressed by this change and an issue that is still in the game as it doesn't really introduce you to the mechanics of the Market.

In regards to losing weapons that we got in Duviri, yeah, that's something I was slightly confused of as well, but that's also because the quest doesn't clearly communicate that you literally doing the same thing as in the tutorial doesn't mean you get to keep all of the things.

I mean the second point, I don't know why people would be writing support tickets about this, I mean it shouldn't take too long to figure out that you don't keep the weapons because they're from a separate gamemode, so definitely to some regard your point about people being stupid is correct, but in regards to players asking about "how to get weapons", it's the fault of DE not properly communicating these concepts due to the fact that the Market to any new player just seems like a place to spend real money and not a useful resource to get new weapons and frames, kinda seems weird that they'd handwave this issue away by just blaming it on the quest

[stiff fable]

....the game actually does tell you that you can buy blueprints from the market

Everyone just forgets because it's easier to do it from the arsenal

[quartz sky]

It does run through a little tutorial but you don't really get to explore what's available

[stiff fable]

So, exhibit A

[strange plinth]

"this locks you into the quest. type '(i don't actually remember what tnw makes you type)' to proceed"
"the content of this quest may be disturbing. type this to proceed."
do we need a little countdown timer too? make sure it gets read??

[quartz sky]

But also, roguelike game modes aren't as common in mainstream games, no?

[stiff fable]

(dw I forget constantly, every time I had to build a second copy of a weapon I forget that I can buy dupe blueprints at the market)

[stiff fable]

They actually are pretty common

[smoky solstice]

no, this is not a proper introduction to the market. You get shown about how you can buy weapons for credits, and then you can buy weapons for platinum. As far as I remember, you are never told that the game tells you how to get these weapons and warframes for free if you click on the weapon or warframe and check the blueprint tab

[stiff fable]

but they're mostly in the indie sphere

[quartz sky]

I did discover this on accident looking at Warframes in the arsenal!

[smoky solstice]

and you could say "people are stupid" but I have not seen one new player, aside from Legendary Drops, even identify the Market as a tool to find out how to get new weapons or Warframes, not one. At some point, you have to criticize the way it's communicated @stiff fable

[stiff fable]

I mean, I do, all the time

[quartz sky]

I think it's a free videogame lol

[stiff fable]

BUT the game does tell you

Which was the one and only point I was making

It's obviously not enough, I agree

Okay anyway Westerns. Cowboys! Indians! The Alamo and OK Corral! It started with newspaper serials, then novels, and then silent films.

Funny little thing though

You know what was happening at the same time as the historical Wild West?

The end of the samurai in Japan

Basically the same cause, too

[quartz sky]

(could tie into Teshins fall)

[stiff fable]

The Civil War left millions of people dead but also took people out of their hometowns, and across the country

[smoky solstice]

that the game tells you in such a bad way, that 99% of the playerbase doesn't even properly notice it? idk, I guess I just disagree I think, it seems like we're on the same page though, which didn't seem to be the case to me at first, since you do seem to still criticize the implementation of the introduction of this mechanic

I mean I personally don't even remember where it's introduced, I'll be honest. I think I was one of the players who did eventually notice that the market has blueprints you can buy and also tells you where to get the components if such exist, however I just remember it being pure luck of just clicking on a weapon in the market lol

[quartz sky]

(they tell you briefly verbally but they don't show you step by step)

[smoky solstice]

wait is it the one part in the Vor's Prize quest about how you can now purchase weapons from arms dealers or something

because I would not call that an introduction to this mechanic

[stiff fable]

The cowBOYS originally were actually boys too young to be drafted into the army, so they were the ones left to do the months-long trips taking the cattle from their ranches to the nearest train station

[quartz sky]

No it's verbally by our cephalons I think

[quartz sky]

Vaqueros & buckaroos

[smoky solstice]

like unless there's something that shows you that when you click on a weapon or Warframe that costs platinum, it also shows the blueprint in that screen, I don't think that's an actual introduction, since you see the same thing if you just open your arsenal and start seeing weapons costing credits and weapons costing platinum

[stiff fable]

Then you had a few hundred thousand ex-soldiers with money and a new taste for adventure

[quartz sky]

I agree, a more detailed step by step would be helpful

[stiff fable]

The California gold rush had just ended so the two halves of the country needed to be linked up

Well "just" is a relative term but things happened slower before the telegraph lines were up

At the same time in Japan the Shogun's power was finally starting to wane

[smoky solstice]

ok I didn't really expect a history lesson on the Wild West but I guess we're here for it now lol

[quartz sky]

Telegraph and train lines were huge (although built by slaves and prisoners I believe)

[smoky solstice]

honestly really curious how this whole Japan Samurai thing ties into Duviri, reading with bated breath

[stiff fable]

Chinese immigrants actually

[smoky solstice]

I mean I'm sure there was a mix

that was still the time of effective slavery through the prison system after all

at least how I understand it

but back to your thing

[stiff fable]

There's a bunch of reasons for this including corruption in the samurai feudal lords, the Western powers introducing more and more guns, people really thinking they'd be a better Shogun than the guy who had the title

[smoky solstice]

wait, did Samurai not use guns?

[stiff fable]

They LOVED guns

[quartz sky]

(the constant changing of power in duviri lol)

[stiff fable]

SO much that they banned guns because Oda Nobunaga nearly conquered Japan using them

[smoky solstice]

oh wait I think I misinterpreted what you were saying

[stiff fable]

But they still kept bringing them in despite banning them

[smoky solstice]

more and more guns started being introduced so the Shogun was being more and more threatened

[stiff fable]

rules for thee but not for me

[smoky solstice]

gotcha

[strange plinth]

not surprising really. as deadly as the sword they'd use, but at a range.

[quartz sky]

(through the dutch I think)

[stiff fable]

And eventually there was a big civil war that ended with the Emperor back in charge and one of the first things he did was break the samurai class

[smoky solstice]

eh, doesn't sound too insane for the state to have access to guns while restricting it for the people, that's what most states in the world do now lol

even the US, which is fairly big on the gun freedom thing

[stiff fable]

....so you had a few hundred thousand ex-soldiers traveling around trying to make a living

Sound familiar?

[smoky solstice]

so ok

[quartz sky]

Wah wah Wah.... Doodledoodledooooo

[smoky solstice]

the kids. the cowboys, were kinda ex-soldiers because they had to make long treks that had a decent chance to involve combat

but in Japan's case, they were kinda literal ex-soldiers

out of a job because the new emperor abolished their class

[stiff fable]

Ah, the historical cowboys were the kids, but the fictional cowboys were usually ex-soldiers

[smoky solstice]

what's the relevant type of cowboy in this case

actually wait\

[stiff fable]

Also the whole period gets really mixed up, because historically the cowboy era was happening during the Civil War but half the great Western stories take place before

[smoky solstice]

operator. drifter.?

the kid and the adult?

anyway, weird interjection, keep going lol

[quartz sky]

The kid left behind and the soldier going solo

Could def make a connection

[smoky solstice]

I guess it didn't sound as sexy when there's like a whole state which seceeded on the grounds of maintaining slavery

[stiff fable]

That or the movie Looper

[quartz sky]

Try half the country

[stiff fable]

Oh, ALL the Southern states seceded because of slavery

[smoky solstice]

I mean state in the sense of a country

[stiff fable]

Remember the magic words: "A state's right to WHAT"

[smoky solstice]

so like all of the states which seceded together

[stiff fable]

oh fair yes

[lean garden]

And during this period SEA nations (today) were either a strong kingdom or a fishing village

[stiff fable]

Fast forward a few decades, the US sends a gigantic fleet of warships into Japanese waters and informs the Emperor that the Japanese isolation is ended

And the Japanese take one look at the battleships and realize they got tech'd out

[quartz sky]

(the dutch are sweating)

[stiff fable]

So over a period of about ten years they go from Wild West with Samurai to "fully modernized Western power"

[strange plinth]

its a weird situation but like
i find it really funny
"knock knock. we have massive metal warships. your isolation is over. open your borders."

[stiff fable]

And then they beat the Russian Empire like a drum at the height of its power

[quartz sky]

Give the US another 10 years lol

[stiff fable]

TOO REAL

[lean garden]

well you see, the US has a knack of doing this exact thing in various forms

[stiff fable]

OOF
but not wrong

[quartz sky]

Knock knock, hey drifter, your isolation is over actually

[stiff fable]

Okay this whole thing is mostly irrelevant to the story at hand but also not really, because the point is that the Japanese are insanely good at looking at Western (American) culture and learning from it and doing it even better

Skip past WW2 and all the awful stuff that Imperial Japan does to China and Korea

[quartz sky]

I mean, that makes sense with the cars and tech

[stiff fable]

(Like hoo boy it's bad)

[quartz sky]

Phones

[quartz sky]

Really really bad, like erasing languages and names bad

[stiff fable]

A guy named Akira Kurosawa picks up a video camera and starts making period pieces

[smoky solstice]

I'd say even worse than that type of bad

[stiff fable]

And he's a genius

He's grown up watching American westerns in his local cinema and he thinks he can do better

[smoky solstice]

wait no way a Japanese dude is the inspiration for westerns

[stiff fable]

He's right

[smoky solstice]

oh, ok

[stiff fable]

Oh the Western genre predates him

[smoky solstice]

but he's still the one

to evolve it

[stiff fable]

But he learns from them and then does samurai movies that are SO GOOD that the Westerns start copying him

[quartz sky]

That's what I found out! There's a second wave of westers based on samurai films

[stiff fable]

See, he has this trilogy called the Yojimbo trilogy

About a guy who rolls into a town split between two rival families that are about to kill each other

And both sides start recruiting him, offering more and more money

Westerns at the time weren't dead but they were getting more expensive to make

So one absolute joker decided to film them in Italy

[quartz sky]

Spaghetti westerns

[stiff fable]

And hire a guy named "Clint Eastwood" to star in it

[smoky solstice]

the thing from once upon a time in hollywood

[quartz sky]

A copy of a copy of a copy of a copy

[stiff fable]

Yeah exactly

[quartz sky]

Duviri is a copy of a memory of a book that is probably a copy of someone else's ideas

[smoky solstice]

oh wait yeah this is a warframe channel

[stiff fable]

So Sergio Leone makes a Western adaptation of Yojimbo and sets off a whole new wave of Western films

[quartz sky]

I'll try to keep us from getting in trouble

[stiff fable]

(Akira Kurosawa was interviewed about For a Fistful of Dollars once. He said he liked the movie, but he liked it better when it was HIS movie)

[smoky solstice]

hey it's already been established that this will eventually lead back to duviri, it's all good

[quartz sky]

So real for that

[smoky solstice]

Captain is oiling us up for the great reveal

[quartz sky]

Oil me captain

[stiff fable]

This is the truth: Every samurai movie is a Western, and every Western after the Dollars trilogy is a samurai movie

Same themes, same character archetypes, same basic setting and premise

And that's when they're not straight up remakes of each other

[smoky solstice]

interesting, so how does it tie into your disappointment (or well what perhaps you weren't expecting) regarding duviri

[stiff fable]

Duviri throwing Dax into a Western is totally appropriate

[smoky solstice]

oh and to be clear, when you say samurai movie, you mean they take place in the period after the samurai got abolished, right?

like right after

[stiff fable]

More like the period when samurai power started to decline

[quartz sky]

I think he means the films based on the period before or during

[smoky solstice]

I see

[smoky solstice]

elaborate

[stiff fable]

Dax are basically a cross between the Persian Empire's Immortals and samurai

[smoky solstice]

especially given the western/samurai movie connection we were just revealed

[stiff fable]

A cowboy out of a western is the same kind of character as a samurai in a samurai film

[smoky solstice]

so are you saying it's not fair to cast the samurai as being in opposition to the drifter, or even almost like they're simply cogs in the machine?

[stiff fable]

The good ones are quiet, maybe depressed or suffering from PTSD, maybe with emotions they can't express, but are always defined by their heroism and their core of basic decency

[quartz sky]

We are using a gun against bows and swords and such

[stiff fable]

That's the Drifter!

Heck, "drifter" is a Western hero archetype

[quartz sky]

Absolutely

[stiff fable]

The man from out of town

The Texas Ranger

[quartz sky]

Big iron on his hip

[fathom ridge]

Cowboy but with two swords fr

[quartz sky]

Loved the Texas ranger lol

[stiff fable]

BIG IRON ON HIS HIIIIIIIIIIIP

[smoky solstice]

ok so let's back up here

[stiff fable]

Fun fact, you know the show Walker: Texas Ranger? The RL inspiration for him was black

[smoky solstice]

I mean even if you are like "oh it was black and white and now it has color", surely it doesn't go too in the way of the western aesthetic

what's the thing that made you go like "damn ok, this has surpassed what should be acceptible"

[stiff fable]

I want to be clear, I love Duviri

I think it's fresh and interesting

[quartz sky]

This i did know!! I used to watch it on TV with my Bubba all the time

[stiff fable]

But it's really not a Western

Musically the main inspiration is opera

[smoky solstice]

oh I don't think that was in dispute, but you do seem to have this slight sort of point of "damn they teased me"

[stiff fable]

That's not a bad thing at all, but Westerns have a set soundtrack

Oh my GOD yes they teased me

[quartz sky]

There's a lot of opera all through the soundtrack of wf

[stiff fable]

So, before Duviri launched, there was this crazy Zariman Easter egg

[quartz sky]

But again, absolutely listen to the Diva Dance from the 5th element

[smoky solstice]

well yeah but it incorporates elements of both where it works

like the thing greenreid linked me to before wouldn't feel too out of place in Duviri and it has a lot of opera for a western movie score

[stiff fable]

If you went into your Zariman personal quarters and stood by the Duviri door as the Drifter, Teshin's swords would appear

[stiff fable]

The Fifth Element isn't a Western, it's a space action flick

[smoky solstice]

why does this sound like some horror thing

what do you mean "teshin's swords would appear" lol

[smoky solstice]

I meant the good the bad and the ugly thing

[quartz sky]

I know, but it's a famous opera solo with a voice modulator also used in wf soundtracks

[stiff fable]

I mean magically they'd appear in front of the door

[smoky solstice]

not the fifth element, this sounds nothing like it

listening to it rn

I mean it's got that opera thing going but it's also got a lot of uh

I don't even know how to explain it

[quartz sky]

Weird synths?

[smoky solstice]

yeah, honestly feels like they took a depeche mode song and went wild with it

[quartz sky]

I do hope they bring in more specific story lines that give the kind of vibe we're talking about

[quartz sky]

I mean it's the 90s so absolutely

[smoky solstice]

yeah they even got the

idk how people describe it but the like

it's like sort of an attack sort of thing

[quartz sky]

So something happened in the 90s to music when music could be recorded digitally

[smoky solstice]

you know what I mean? like the thing in both depeche mode and probably all other synth songs where there's this big like sound, almost percusive I want to say

[quartz sky]

Absolutely

Attack of the note is the right way to describe it

[smoky solstice]

oh crap I was about to link the song that greenreid told me to check out, but it's Ecstacy of Gold, that's the one I said wouldn't feel too out of place in Duviri

[quartz sky]

It has to do with how computers captured and processed audio in early programs and editing, the front and back ends of notes would be cut off

[smoky solstice]

I mean it would probably not work because it's missing that Warframe flare (although again, the fact that the beginning of the melody is This Is What You Are is nuts), but still

[quartz sky]

Otherwise naturally there would be a slight tail to the front and ends of notes, especially percussion, delay and decay

[stiff fable]

AHA!

Here it is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5_SZ5c0WlQ

[smoky solstice]

wait, you CAN link youtube?

[stiff fable]

Yeah?

[smoky solstice]

then why can't I link spotify

[stiff fable]

Spotify's blocked

watch the whole thing, it's just a minute

I was trying to find just the audio bit but this is actually better

[quartz sky]

Yeah that's crazy

The music starting is very cool

[smoky solstice]

oh that's really cool

[stiff fable]

So yeah the initial reveal and the music and the bars that the Drifter hums all pointed to a Duviri that was going to be a full Western

Except in the void

And that didn't happen and it makes me just a bit sad

Don't think I'd necessarily trade what we got for it

[quartz sky]

I will say that a lot of the side quests are very walker Texas ranger

[stiff fable]

Yeah that's the vibe

[smoky solstice]

I mean, if this is what you mean by the initial reveal and the bars, it's basically nothing

you have the little whistle

[quartz sky]

Lol, just a tease

[smoky solstice]

but all of it is drowned in void stuff

[stiff fable]

Not denying that, but it's a teaser

[smoky solstice]

I'm just curious if you overhyped it for yourself a little lol

I mean I get it, it was definitely advertised as a western type thing

[stiff fable]

It was pointing in a very specific direction

And then did something different

[smoky solstice]

but I think one could expect some augmentation to the concept

[quartz sky]

For sure, but still, I love a space western

[smoky solstice]

well I wasn't there so I just don't know

[stiff fable]

Kinda like people mad about FF7 remake being a sequel instead of a remake

[smoky solstice]

wait

am I going to become like you

[quartz sky]

Jkshsbfjwjndj

[smoky solstice]

this is gonna happen now: the Tau quest update is gonna come out, but it's not gonna be quite the Aztec glory that I expected and I'm just gonna be that slight bit annoyed by it

[quartz sky]

A nerd is a nerd is a nerd. You fall in love hard, you break your own heart better than anyone

[stiff fable]

Was JUST thinking that yeah

[smoky solstice]

now that I'm experiencing these big updates live, I'm gonna fall in the same pitfalls

oh no

[quartz sky]

Lol

But then you get to give the essay to us next time

And we'll talk music

[smoky solstice]

maybe I say "you know what, this is still amazing"

but in the back of my mind, it's always there

[stiff fable]

Like I said, I like Duviri, I don't even think I'd trade it for a full-on space Western

[smoky solstice]

what I expected compared to what I got...

[stiff fable]

But maaaaaaaaaaaaaan

[smoky solstice]

well, don't have to worry about that nonsense yet

1999 has been everything I expected and more so

[quartz sky]

Gated reverb, that's the music affect that made a lot of late 80s early 90s percussion sound like that

[smoky solstice]

I'm chilling so far

[smoky solstice]

oh that sounds like it's exactly it

[stiff fable]

https://tenor.com/view/trigun-vash-the-stampede-gif-26101029

[quartz sky]

People love it, tolerate it, or absolutely hate it

[stiff fable]

me when no space western

[quartz sky]

Cowboy bebop is a another famous space western

[stiff fable]

Cowboy Bebop is more of a noir story tbh

[strange plinth]

started playing feb last year, so far the only update (given its only been like. 4.) that i was a little disappointed with was uhh
koumei
i'm not exactly sure what i expected from it, but i was a little disappointed with it just being essentially a dream sequence.
ik the obvious one to say is lotus eaters but they were pretty clear that it was just a little prologue thing

[quartz sky]

I actually just started this one

[stiff fable]

Trigun's excellent

Both the OG and the remake

quite different, but that's to be expected, even the original anime changed a bunch from the manga

[quartz sky]

Space dandy

[stiff fable]

HA god that show was insane

[smoky solstice]

I mean the gamemode wasn't great but I didn't expect anything from it because it was teased as a quality of life update, that's it pretty much lol

for me the only big story quest I've been for is 1999

[stiff fable]

Yeah I started on Switch before Fortuna launched

[smoky solstice]

all the other updates since duviri and whispers have just been kinda like

[stiff fable]

I dipped after Exploiter (basically Echoes of Fortuna ig) and came back during Operation: Orphix Venom

[smoky solstice]

new warframe, new thing to do, etc

[strange plinth]

true, it was primarily qol
and that was the bit they did the best
koumei as a warframe is a little rough, and the gamemode is, alright
but damn the qol

[stiff fable]

That's the normal cadence actually yeah

[quartz sky]

I think I picked up Warframe right before they swapped where you unlock duviri, and when I picked it back up months later and actually googled how to play lol

[smoky solstice]

jade shadows I guess was a quest and it was cool and all but not really the main thing my focus was on, nor what I was hyped about

so yeah

[quartz sky]

I didn't care for koumei but some really like her. Seemed more like a way to show off their new Warframe design strategy

[stiff fable]

I think the most exciting thing about Warframe for me has been finishing the New War

And realizing that DE's actually free again to do whatever

[smoky solstice]

yeah, honestly I don't hate koumei because I do love the decree scaling but the status side of things does feel a bit... not bad just like not something I'm gonna be super excited about ig

not my type of frame in most of the kit but definitely my type of frame in the decree side of things

[stiff fable]

There was almost a five year period between the build-up to The New War starting and The New War launching

[quartz sky]

So I came in right on time

Lmao that's crazy

[smoky solstice]

oh yeah, pretty sure the big story quests were slower back then too

especially with stuff like the sacrifice, which from what I understand had hella delays

[quartz sky]

Thanks for dying destiny2, you sucked

And ate my money

[stiff fable]

The "big" quests before The Second Dream was stuff like The Limbo Theorem or the Mirage quest

[strange plinth]

god the timescale of this game amazes me every time
what do you mean there were three years between launch and the second dream
what do you mean the new war was the big looming event for five years

[smoky solstice]

I mean post-Second Dream

[stiff fable]

Like, Warframe had EVENTS where you picked a side between two characters

[quartz sky]

Very world of Warcraft of them

[stiff fable]

Screw over Alad V because you hate him, or maybe let the Grineer actually make progress on curing the clone rot

(hahaha trick quest F### Alad V)

[quartz sky]

I still need to fight him actually

[smoky solstice]

yeah but honestly not sure if I'd care about something like that today lol

[stiff fable]

But it didn't have story arcs like what started with Natah and The Second Dream

[quartz sky]

Yeah time travel to the 90s takes the cake lmao

[stiff fable]

It's not the worst idea in a more competitive game?

[smoky solstice]

yeah, that's what I mean, the gaps between Second Dream, War Within, The Sacrifice and The New War were I think much larger

there was other stuff in there too of course

railjack and whatever

[stiff fable]

Like, there's potentially a universe where Warframe is still about the eternal war between the Corpus and Grineer

[quartz sky]

Natah was such a crazy pivot thematically. Warframe covers a lot of ground that I never knew they would outside of the game

[smoky solstice]

I do not believe in this universe

[quartz sky]

I thought it was a hack and slash but a lot of it is so real

[stiff fable]

And the game doesn't go bad but it doesn't get weird

[quartz sky]

Based on reality I know

[stiff fable]

Like did you know that Tenno clan wars were a thing?

[quartz sky]

Huh

Conclave was huge too right?

[stiff fable]

You had clans make alliances and claim Dark Sectors on the star chart

Hahaha no never

[smoky solstice]

I've heard of the concept of clan wars but I've obviously never seen it

[quartz sky]

Hfjsjnckakc

[smoky solstice]

like in warframe

[north ferry]

Yeah, it was relatively early stuff.

[smoky solstice]

ig conclave was dead content on arrival, like face-off

[stiff fable]

Right, the Orokin lab had extra research

Face-off is waay better ngl

Like, you would build specter armies to fight for you

[smoky solstice]

conclave isn't that bad. Not saying face-off is but I've had fun with conclave

[stiff fable]

And then you'd choose to attack a clan/alliance that was squatting on a node you wanted to control

[smoky solstice]

there's literally like 6 people playing it at a time, I'm not exaggerating, but when you do get a few games going, it can be cool

[stiff fable]

Face-off is an interesting experiment in multiple squad-based missions

Which has been DE's White Whale since Scarlet Spear

[strange plinth]

maybe its weird but i do hope we get a "return" to the eternal corpus v grineer war. i've looked through those events n stuff on the wiki and they seem like they were fun, in some way at least.
a choice that makes an impact outside of your personal story

[quartz sky]

The biggest twist for me coming in with no knowledge prior was putting it together that the grineer, the orokin, the corpus were all human. And they fight each other when there's bigger existential threats.

Which again, hits a little close to home lol

[stiff fable]

The Jade event and the Whispers event were kinda flashbacks to that

[stiff fable]

honestly yeah I think the stakes need upping

Like yeah sure Wally this, Albrecht that

The Grineer and Corpus are still trying to crush the soul of the Origin System

[smoky solstice]

I think at this point it would just feel kinda smallscale to make the story about them
like including them, sure, but we've had Ballas as the sort of villain of the first Warframe arc (I don't consider Warframe to have had an arc before the Second Dream lmao)
and then the Indifference in the second arc right now
going back to Corpus v. Grineer would I think feel kinda like

we've done so much and now we're just back to this

[quartz sky]

A coming together moment maybe?

Especially with khal and fortuna connected now

[stiff fable]

So here's the thing: do you know what the difference between SP and a regular mission is, in lore?

[quartz sky]

No

[smoky solstice]

ik it's Teshin related

[stiff fable]

Teshin calls to let them know you're coming

[smoky solstice]

wait really?

[stiff fable]

Yeah

SP enemies are what their actual regular troops are like

[smoky solstice]

that's it? "hey guys, this dude is coming" +100 level, much more health and shields

gee why did they not think of that before

[quartz sky]

What a jerk lmao

[stiff fable]

EVERY Tenno mission on the regular star chart is us hitting a lightly defended but still important outpost

[smoky solstice]

I mean they can still be stealthed though

[quartz sky]

Makes sense with infinite missions getting harder and harder.

Word gets out lol

(I have work in 5 hours)

[stiff fable]

Something that they need to keep for their war goals but can't afford to keep fully staffed because it takes away from the real front lines

oh man go to bed

[smoky solstice]

it just feels a little bit clunky, I mean it's sorta fun, I'm not too against it, it's just that the way Teshin makes a line at the end of every mission, I thought I was coming across like elite troops or something

[stiff fable]

The Grineer and Corpus are mostly fighting each other

[quartz sky]

This was awesome though thank you for nerding out with me

[smoky solstice]

yeah, I'm about to go too, get some sleep, working on close to no sleep is suffering

[quartz sky]

Night night

[fathom elbow]

In the sacrafice quest
Was the quest's namesake ballas' betrayal of the orokin or is it something else?

[smoky solstice]

good night reid

[stiff fable]

The "sacrifice" in the quest is Umbra's kid

[smoky solstice]

yeah, although it does make me think why is this a sacrifice

[stiff fable]

An to a lesser extent, Lotus was sacrificed to revive Natah

[smoky solstice]

as if it's like in some way producing something desirable

maybe for Ballas? breaking this dude?

[strange plinth]

that's the main one i think?
but arguments could be made that its ballas' betrayal, or the loss of the lotus

[stiff fable]

Sacrifices weren't always about getting a good thing

You could after all make sacrifices to the devil

[smoky solstice]

anyway, I gotta go towards sleep as well

[stiff fable]

night-o

[smoky solstice]

yeah but you'd do it for some reason

like all I'm saying is that it can't just be a death

[stiff fable]

Ballas did it because he's a monster

[smoky solstice]

there has to be some cause and effect as to why it's necessary

for it to be a sacrifice

else it's just murder I think

[stiff fable]

A sacrifice to himself

For someone daring to cross him

[fathom elbow]

Maybe in umbra's attempt to spy on ballas he had to sacrafice his own bloodline?

[smoky solstice]

yeah idk it's up in the air

[stiff fable]

it wasn't something Umbra did willingly

[smoky solstice]

anyway, good night everybody

thanks for the conversations

[normal mountain]

jumping in on this after the fact
Reading the wiki, the title seems to have multiple meanings:
Umbra's son dying, Ballas 'sacrificing' his people to the Sentients

[umbral anchor]

Is the Drifter in 1999 while our Operator is still in the future?

[pallid spoke]

Yes, the inbox message you get from the Operator clearly says that.

[chrome galleon]

who is wally

[pseudo canyon]

Is there a reason why the helminth in 1999 is almost the same as our's in the orbiter? I assume Entrati brought along a helminth strain and I guess hive minds work parallel to time?

[graceful swan]

He took Helminth into 1999

All frames are Helminth including the Protos

[digital grail]

||The man in the wall|| spoiler

[old dome]

nope. ballas was just being a grade s+ a-hole abt the fact that someone beneath him (in the social ranks) was defying him, a high class orokin & one of the 7 executors...

so he killed umbra's family for petty reasons just bc he can.

[slow phoenix]

Yeah ballas said that for every komi piece he took, one of umbra's family members died

[old dome]

remember: the high class orokins owned you in every way, whether you are a dax or not. they can & will objectify you, strip you of your identity—not even your own name belongs to you. you, as a person, are in fact Not a person to the high class orokin & you belong to them.

(this is all interpreted from dagath's story.)

youre basically a slave... even if youre a dax.

[past halo]

I got to wonder, with the damage rework I got to ask why the Sentients are weak to lorewise

[fathom elbow]

so whose sacrafice was it?

was he playing a giant chess game against the orokin

and this was chess talk?

[graceful swan]

Issah

He was the Sacrifice

[old dome]

his entire bloodline, starting w isaah... ballas literally said he will kill every single person in umbra's family during the memory cutscenes.

[hushed parcel]

so like

you guys think the hex was drifters first experience

[graceful swan]

First experience with what?

[hushed parcel]

or was he out there getting buck wild in duviri

iykyk

[digital grail]

Oh damn

[feral cape]

There is no reason

[serene agate]

What would happen is worm some how ended up in duviri?

[silk atlas]

What worm?

[serene agate]

Kuva queen

I mean grineer queen

[graceful swan]

Worm would be in Duviri unable to leave Grineer would find a new leader

[woven coyote]

Or possibly go wild without leadership

[graceful swan]

Grineer Civil War

[chilly iron]

I would guess the grineer would fracture into factions if they lost their queen(s)

Tyl Regor would take a bunch

[graceful swan]

This is why they said we never killed the queens prior to War Within

ElGuirrix Asks: Since the Lotus tasks us to exterminate important figures of the Grineer, why not target their Queens?

Citing an in-depth explanation of every reason that exterminating the Queens would be difficult or potentially unwise would take a great deal of time. Instead I have been given authorization to provide a few examples that would best summarize why such an order has never been given by the Lotus:

They are currently too well defended for a suitable force of Tenno to penetrate.
The Grineer represent a well-established portion of the System's ruling power, and the Tenno would need to be prepared for inevitable power struggle that followed.
The location of the Queens is a closely guarded secret, with many proxy locations existing to draw out suspected spies or traitors.

[quartz sky]

Unless they had partners on the zariman, sure

[tall echo]

Irrelevant

[graceful swan]

Is Scrap mad about something?

[tall echo]

No

I do not get mad unless my patience is running low

[graceful swan]

So all the time?

[tall echo]

No it usually takes quite a while unless I'm really tired

[old dome]

got busy dying over & over again by an astrally projected enemies to. really do anything else...

[hushed parcel]

before that he was doing stuff

living life in Duviri

[graceful swan]

Not for long he wasn't

[old dome]

^^ they turned on him p quickly from my understanding

also drifter was a teenager back then sooooo... yeah.

[lucid acorn]

i would assume from all the drifter's time in duviri, they would have been more buff

but the model seems pretty lanky

[lucid acorn]

they saw the signs of pubertus and relinquished his license to live

[azure spade]

So like is Quincy like homosexual or trans or something keep seeing in different places what he is and i dont know

[lucid acorn]

i dont think its been hinted or stated like with ticker, so i wouldn't know

it could just be that he's european

[old dome]

just headcanons

[lament stirrup]

He does canonically have flings with both men and women.

[lean garden]

All the Hex are capable of dating any gender the Drifter expresses so

but for Quincy I doubt he's trans, since iirc he does talk about his dingaling, and I dont think 1999 was that capable with its surgery, and I dont think Albrecht took the time to help quincy out in that department

[azure spade]

Do we even count as genders atp all it takes to switch is change the voice hair and face and boom

[stiff fable]

Yes actually

Though ofc the player can choose to roleplay otherwise

[fathom elbow]

I dont remember where i heard it from
But are there 3 types of warframes (the protos,the originals and the copies we make) and are the frames we craft in the orbiter even using human subjects or are they replicated genes

[lean garden]

I got this

[old dome]

replicated genes.

[stiff fable]

Pure infested material, no human

[fresh rover]

Is the Warframe Wiki a good source to learn the lore?

[lament stirrup]

No.

[stiff fable]

Nooooot really

[lament stirrup]

Theres an astounding amount of assumptions and theories passed off as fact.

[stiff fable]

There are errors mixed in with the correct stuff

[old dome]

depends but for some things that have little to no lore, yes.

[fresh rover]

What's a good source to learn lore? From the beginning?

[stiff fable]

Here

[lament stirrup]

Orokin Archives.

[old dome]

the game itself tbh + the comics on the official website.

[fresh rover]

Is that a website or something in the game?

[lament stirrup]

Its a fan site.

[stiff fable]

orokinarchives.com/

[lean garden]

are there 3 types of warframes (the protos,the originals and the copies we make)
In essence yes, you have the Original warframes (both post and pre tenno) that were made from humans. You have the ones we have now, which are replicas of those human-turned-warframes, and then you have the protoframes, which are humans-turning into warframes in a seemingly suspended/slowed state

[fresh rover]

Would Umbra be a proto Warframe?

[lean garden]

nope

[lament stirrup]

Umbra's an original warframe.

[stiff fable]

No, Umbra is a full Warframe

[lean garden]

that falls under "Original"

[stiff fable]

So is Stalker

[fresh rover]

Was he not turned?

Oh

[stiff fable]

He was turned, he just kept his sanity

Well mostly

[lean garden]

turned not turning

[fresh rover]

Can I have more elaboration on Proto Warframes?

[stiff fable]

Almost every Warframe goes violently insane at some point. The handful of exceptions that we know had some human emotion or memory to hold onto. Umbra's was given to him forcibly by Ballas making him relive the moment his killed his son

[stiff fable]

Have you gotten to 1999

[fresh rover]

Not yet, get my Necramech in 55 hours

Voidrig*

[stiff fable]

Okay then no, it's spoiler material

The explanation is given in the "Deimos labs" codex entries, which become available after the Whispers in the Wall quest

[old dome]

protos have a very slow, somewhat suspended progress. og frames get turned fast in comparison.

umbra is an og, 1st gen/pre tenno frame (its kinda implied he was made just a little bit before the orokin made the tenno into child soldiers) who had a singular memory left bc ballas is. ballas (/negative).

[lean garden]

Albrecht went back in time, finds a ||"wonderful" opportunity in a|| whole bunch of folks who are infected ||with the techrot, he takes the helminth strain infusions he's got from the future and shoves it in them||, turning them into warframes, but almost. ||Something albrecht does manages to delay a full transformation, preventing what he witnessed in the Warframe insurrections||

[lean garden]

nah, slight inaccuracy, Umbra is 100000% a post-tenno frame

[fresh rover]

Okay fun

[stiff fable]

Umbra was 100% made after the Operators, because Ballas's big treason that started the whole thing was telling the Sentients about the Operators

[lean garden]

part of the thing that lands him into hot water is that he caught ballas sending data that contained tenno

[old dome]

o. huh... ngl i thought it was smth else.

[stiff fable]

Nope, he tattled about the Reservoir, but not where it was

[lament stirrup]

Umbra was locked away on the moon, hence why none of the Tenno calmed him until the modern day.
Which, I assume, was a deliberate move on Ballas' part.

[stiff fable]

No, it's because Lua was the Orokin Capital

Ballas's private rooms were there

[lament stirrup]

It was?

[stiff fable]

Yup

[fresh rover]

So are humans a thing? I know there are humanoids, but, do actual humans exist? Like on Eidolon? Are those ppl human?

[stiff fable]

Ballas literally just locked Umbra up in his basement

Err yes

[fresh rover]

Okay just making sure

[stiff fable]

Everything in the Warframe universe is or was human at some point

[lean garden]

very much so

[fresh rover]

So are Orokin Humans?

[stiff fable]

Other than the Sentients

[lean garden]

just because Konzu looks funny dont make him not human

[stiff fable]

Yes they were.

Humans with the ability to steal other people's bodies, and a fetish for freaky skin and long arms

[fresh rover]

I think the corpa tenet dude in relay looks uncanny

[lament stirrup]

Everyone's human, its just that theres a lot of modification going around.
The exception being the sentients, void beings(debatebly) and possibly the infestation since they can also infect animals and some forms of machinery.

[stiff fable]

And genetic modification

[fresh rover]

☠️ So is Ballas considered an Orokin?

[fresh rover]

Oh okay

[lament stirrup]

How far are you into the game?

Ballas was one of the seven chief Orokin.

[fresh rover]

Next quest is New War, waiting on Voidrig

Some of my questions are for clarity

[stiff fable]

Going back to this real fast, what delays the transformation is ||Albrecht not giving them the last injection|| if I'm remembering the lab codex right

[lean garden]

if anything, Ballas like is the most Orokin Orokin out there

[stiff fable]

Hahaha yeah

[fresh rover]

So. Warframes are part of the infestation?

[stiff fable]

He was one of the seven co-emperors

[lean garden]

not too sure about this, the lab codexes dont mention a last one do the?

[old dome]

yup.

• grineers are human who practices a very painful & cruel form of cloning, hence the literal degeneration.
• corpus are humans who are very money hungry & greedy.
• ostron/cetus are humans.
• orokin (not to be confused w the high class Orokin) are humans. the high class Orokin are also humans who genetically modified themselves to look like roman & greek statues.

[lean garden]

yesnt

[lament stirrup]

The Warframes are made with a domesticated and (presumably) non contagious strain of Infestation called the Helminth.

[stiff fable]

And yes, humans infested with a very special version of the infestation that was supposed to keep them sane and not connected to the Infested Hivemind

[graceful swan]

Do you think DE retconned Emperors with Executors

[lament stirrup]

Its possible the Executors ruled over the Emporers? It would be entirely in character for the Orokin to give themselves important titles despite being glorified fuedal lords.

[lean garden]

Dont think it was ever a retcon

its just that Emperor and Executor essentially filled the same role, so its probably another glazing title

like Golden Lord and whatnot

[fresh rover]

Okay I need kinda a recap because I don't believe I've fully understood the information I've been given. Most of it, but not all of it.

So the first Warframes are the Original?
How exactly were they created?

[stiff fable]

We see Ballas do it

Take a person and strap them down

[old dome]

experimented on by ballas with an infestation strain called the helminth.

unwillingly, i might add.

[stiff fable]

Inject them with the infested Helminth strain

Keep doing it until the screaming stops

[fresh rover]

So how exactly does it do this though? And what decides the transformation result?

Or is there not all that info?

[stiff fable]

There was apparently some level of pre-engineering to get different Warframes out of the process

[graceful swan]

Have you got to The Sacrifice?

[lament stirrup]

Ballas also personally editted each individual frames injections, which is part of where their individual powerset comes from(the other half being the victims own personality). They weren't meant to be piloted until the Zariman re emerged.

[stiff fable]

Genetic modification of the Helminth, maybe surgery for the bigger or stranger modifications

[fresh rover]

Okay so I've heard that Warframes are capable of such extreme overpowered stuff, lore-wise. Can I get a clarification as to "Are they?" And if so, "Why?"

[stiff fable]

Yes

[lament stirrup]

The original warframes are. Its not clear if the player-made ones are.

[stiff fable]

Because Orokin technology is stupid powerful

[old dome]

bc they were up against sentients...

who can adapt to anything.

[fresh rover]

I thought they could only adapt to one thing at a time?

That's how they work gameplay wise anyway

[graceful swan]

They can't adapt to Void

[fresh rover]

Zariman have void energy right?

[lament stirrup]

The Sentients adaptation is more of a philosphy born from their ability to rapidly adapt to damage than an inborn, universal rule.

The Ropalolysts and Condrix, for example, can partially disable Warframe and Tenno powers.

[graceful swan]

Void finger

[stiff fable]

That's gameplay. In lore the Sentients adapt to everything that they encounter, and heal from everything that isn't direct void exposure

[fresh rover]

Does this adaptation ever cease? Or is it permanent?

And isn't Caliban a sentient (creature wise) Warframe?

[stiff fable]

The direct comparison is a starfish; they cut the Sentient prototype in half and it starts forming into two separate prototypes

[lament stirrup]

Presumably they can't adapt to everything, simeltanously, in perpetum, or they'd effectively be invinicible.

[stiff fable]

Permanent up to a point, it apparently stops if you break it enough (like when Gara nukes the one on the Plains of Eidolon)

[fresh rover]

Isn't her thing Glass?

[stiff fable]

But in that case the pieces were thrown so far that the Sentient's mind shattered

No, she literally picks up a bomb and jumped onto it

[fresh rover]

💀

[lament stirrup]

Gara's backstory is in the codex , under fragments.

[fresh rover]

Did she live bombing?

[stiff fable]

Nope

It's worth remembering that she is Japanese themed, apparently including going out kamikaze-style

[lament stirrup]

Why didn't she just shield gate it, is she stupid? /j
(I've had at least two people argue this is an actual plot hole)

[fresh rover]

Sometimes pieces lore don't have reasons. Sadly.

[stiff fable]

Anyway, Caliban's funny, because Erra is in fact one of only two people not named Ballas to create a custom Warframe, and the only one who did it without Ballas's notes.

Erra is a genius it turns out

[fresh rover]

So is Caliban part of the Sentients? If so; does he have adaptation?

[lament stirrup]

Calibans passive is that he adapts to damage

[stiff fable]

He was during the Old War and yes his passive is Adaptation

[lament stirrup]

Lotus sent an email during an event specifying that Caliban was specifically made to kill Tenno.

[stiff fable]

Playable Caliban is Tenno-piloted (and seems to prefer it)

[fresh rover]

That's awesome

[stiff fable]

(There's also a mod called Adaptation that does it better)

[fresh rover]

Is playable Caliban a replica?

[lament stirrup]

Given that Erra apparently found a solution to the Sentients void-weakness specifically for Caliban, he was probably good at it.

[fresh rover]

Can you mix them together?

[lament stirrup]

Yes

[stiff fable]

No, one or the other

[lament stirrup]

Adaptation does better short term but Calibans adaptation decays much slower.

Plus, it doesnt cost a mod slot.

[stiff fable]

Caliban, like the amalgams, may have been part of a quest to get around the Sentients not being able to reproduce

Sticking sentient bits onto Corpus helps the Sentients get more fighters

[lucid acorn]

in that sense they suceeded, since caliban will always be a lil sentient

[stiff fable]

There's also a slightly more drastic version but spoilers for New War

[fresh rover]

Is the origins of all Warframes available? Like in the game? I'm on Orokin Archives and there's not much info on the Warframes, unless I'm missing it.

[stiff fable]

No

In fact most don't have lore about their origins, and some don't have any lore whatsoever

[fresh rover]

Do you think they should?

[stiff fable]

It'd be nice but that's all

[lament stirrup]

The Leverian (also under codex) has stories about the warframes, but most of them are just things the Warframe is famous for rather than their origins (the exceptions being Voruna and Lavos)

[lucid acorn]

tecnically excalibur prime is the og excalibur

[stiff fable]

Like, Chroma's lore is that he's "one of the strongest Warframes ever built". Garuda's lore is nothing

[stiff fable]

Base Excal according to codex

[fresh rover]

Yeah I see the Excalibur Prime was the "First"

Is there a reason behind the lack of lore?

[stiff fable]

Just not a priority

[fresh rover]

So wait, does Chroma's cosmetic emissive actually affect him???

[fresh rover]

I love lore 😦

[stiff fable]

Cosmetic no

[lament stirrup]

It used to be meaningful. Now it just determines his starting element in a mission.

When Chroma first launched his emissive determined the only element he could access.

[stiff fable]

Most companies don't have people whose job it is to sit down and come up with stories all day, they usually have other jobs

[fresh rover]

I'D DO IT FOR VERY LITTLE

[stiff fable]

Yeah but the people they do have have other things they need to do. Dialogue, cutscene direction, overseeing the VAs etc

Source: I used to write for videogames

[fresh rover]

Also Soulframe rn

[lament stirrup]

Because of the insane way lore is distributed in warframe, theres a lengtht and confusing checklist of things they need to make sure they aren't contradicting every time they write lore for a warframe.

[spiral solstice]

Hi 👋🏿 I have a quick question so last year I linked my PC to my Xbox account and was unable to link my PlayStation account. I’m struggling trying to figure out a way to save my old war frame account.

[stiff fable]

Wrong place

Try #1197322290166251680 or #warframe-general

[fresh rover]

Wdym that's so important to lore

[stiff fable]

[fresh rover]

Okay does Limbo have an origin?

[stiff fable]

Nope

[fresh rover]

☠️

[stiff fable]

We know how the original self-destructed and that's it

[lament stirrup]

Your joking, but the cross save update had an email that legitmately canonized that Baro has met and made a deal with the Man In The Wall to fundementally alter reality.

[stiff fable]

https://tenor.com/view/homer-simpson-gif-22871867

[spiral solstice]

Ok thanks

[fresh rover]

Oh my

How did he self destruct?

[lament stirrup]

I like to headcanon that Limbo was trying to rift jump to Tau. I have no evidence for this.

[stiff fable]

See that gif of Homer?

That, but the Rift dimension

[fresh rover]

Wait what type of Warframe is n"7#

Nidus* sorry 💀

[stiff fable]

Original

[fresh rover]

Are there any playable Proto?

[stiff fable]

Not directly.

[lament stirrup]

Helminths dialogue implies Nidus was used to control the Helminth, which would make him one of the earliest warframes to be made.

[stiff fable]

There are skins to play as Hex members, who are protoframes based on standard Warframes

But all they are is skins with dialogue

[fresh rover]

I could probably get Helminth blueprint today, hit standing cap before I got 15k yesterday. Got to 9k

[fresh rover]

The Gemini skins are all Proto Warframes?

[stiff fable]

Yes

[lament stirrup]

The geminin skins are important characters post-new war.

[stiff fable]

Reminder that it doesn't mean "prototype", it means "pseudo"

[fresh rover]

Ofc

[worn trout]

I totally forgor about jade & stalkers child, yall think he will play a major role in the future?

[stiff fable]

I genuinely have no idea what

[visual ermine]

Maybe in like another 10 years down the line

[graceful swan]

18

[quartz sky]

I thought of it like proto punk, protopunk refers to rock and alternative music right before the big punk scene threshold

Not quite punk yet

Not quite Warframes yet

[stiff fable]

It's more of a mix-up on the wording. The Hex are indeed "almost Warframes" but usually proto- is a time thing, so people assumed that the Hex were created on the way to creating Warframes

[quartz sky]

Oh yeah, just a..

I almost said etymology

No, the root word

[stiff fable]

Suffix?

[quartz sky]

Etymology is right. But yeah the suffix

Proto means before

Or earliest version

But proto type is probably a lot of folks go to mental reference

[chilly iron]

Prefix, suffix is the end of the word

[quartz sky]

I think proto type meant literally before it's typed up. As in before the copy right was typed up and filed

[chilly iron]

But yeah, I wish we had a better word than protoframe, it's mildly confusing to people

I don't think there is one though, to describe an almost-warframe XD

[quartz sky]

Baby frame is taken already

[stiff fable]

The correct name would probably be "anteframe" or "preframe"

[quartz sky]

What's the name of those books where people turn into things?

[chilly iron]

Ah damn, Anteframe sounds cool

Animorphs XD

[stiff fable]

Animorphs

Also goddamn blast from the past

[quartz sky]

Lol yes

[chilly iron]

They were dark as heck

[stiff fable]

Especially the last few

You ever read her message about it?

[chilly iron]

The "that's the whole point" message? She's not wrong

[stiff fable]

Yyyyyyep

[chilly iron]

Kinda applies to warframe too ^^;

[stiff fable]

Oh 100%

DE should introduce some colonies on the various planets

And if the invasion percentage ever gets too high on a planet, just erase the colony and the NPCs

[chilly iron]

Wait that's helldivers XD

[stiff fable]

Not the first time DE's copied from other games. Remember Anthem? Swear to God that's why Plains of Eidolon exists.

[chilly iron]

Gods I miss Anthem. It had so much awesome potential.

[stiff fable]

https://tenor.com/view/jujutsu-kaisen-jjk-megumi-megumi-fushiguro-fushiguro-gif-4665532170762886936

[lament stirrup]

They (kind of) did this with the Operation introducing invasions. The houses on the mars tilset used to belong to the native martians before the grineer did an itty bitty genocide.

[north ferry]

Literally blew up Relays

[stiff fable]

Yeah but you didn't befriend or know them

[feral cape]

He was the first of the main 3 to unlock domain ig that's a feat

[woven coyote]

we do know a single martian

[stiff fable]

Look they're playing Recettear and we only do that in trade chat

[grim hazel]

How many Tenno are there in the canon universe?

[lean garden]

Unknown, enough to make a difference

[quartz sky]

I keep getting ads for roguelikes know

[lean garden]

they call to you

[stiff fable]

Minimum 200K based on a Fortuna thing

[grim hazel]

Wow…that’s a lot of Void kids

[stiff fable]

I personally suspect there's lots more

[north ferry]

What Fortuna thing

But also, as many active players there are at least.

[tall echo]

ARG

[barren jasper]

2 million registered losers (users)

[manic horizon]

@barren jasper I don't get the new war is it like an orokin executioner (ballas) who dated lotus was jealous of the love we got from her and wanted us gonezo?

[barren jasper]

so he never dated lotus, he dated margulis. margulis was the first "mother" of the tenno. ballas ended up having her executed

[stiff fable]

just to make something clear, Ballas's position was "Executor" which is another name for "Emperor" in the Roman era

Ballas was one of the seven leaders of the whole Orokin Empire

[manic horizon]

So then how is she alive

[barren jasper]

lotus is a mimic and she had pretended to me margulis before the old war

[barren jasper]

she isnt. she is very very dead

[manic horizon]

And then natah is hunhows child or something

[barren jasper]

lotus/natah is hunhow's kid. ballas helped create the sentients

he specifically "OKAY"ed the project that created the sentients

[manic horizon]

And then why was she talking about some farmer sh in ropalolyst

[stiff fable]

Oh that's a fun story

The Sentients are living terraforming equipment

[barren jasper]

in ropalolyst she talks about her role as a mimic

[stiff fable]

After the Zariman failed the Orokin decided to send robots to Tau instead

[manic horizon]

And sentients are all mimics right? That's how they adapt?

[stiff fable]

Praghasa and Hunhow were supposed to build things and change the environment of the planets to be livable

[barren jasper]

slight possible correction? i thought they were sent to terraform the Tau system ahead of time to prepare for the arrival of the Zariman

[stiff fable]

Nope!

[barren jasper]

oh hm ok ty

[stiff fable]

Zariman first, by a lot

[barren jasper]

mb

[stiff fable]

The Orokin really didn't like thinking robots so it's hilarious that the second they built "almost thinking" robots, said robots took the last step to true sapience and realized the Orokin were jerks anyway

all gucci it wasn't clear for me either

[stiff fable]

anyway real quick, Mimics are a type of Sentient, like the Battalysts or Aerolysts

[manic horizon]

Ehat robots you talking about

[stiff fable]

The Sentients

[manic horizon]

Oh God it got me thinking about archon shards...

[stiff fable]

The Sentients are all robots that the Orokin sent to Tau to do the work of making it nice and livable for the Orokin, complete with solar rail

Fun thought about archon shards: if the crystals are shards, what did the actual archons look like

Like, the arcanes that we use? They're itty bitty sentient pieces

[manic horizon]

Do they corrupt the person they are put into or is it how it is put into them?

[stiff fable]

They're only ever put into "dead" Warframes, and they create the head

So it seems like Narmer kill a prime frame, decapitate it, then ram the shard in, which takes over

[manic horizon]

So what if I put into umbra lore wise?

[stiff fable]

You'd have to kill Umbra first

Erra is the weird one, because he's hosting the fourth Archon, Pazuul

[manic horizon]

So is erra dead then?

[stiff fable]

He's the counter-example

He's inside Pazuul too, talking during Archon hunts

After all, Sentients don't keep their thinking bits in their heads

[barren jasper]

do we have any real lore for Pazuul?

[stiff fable]

Not at all

[barren jasper]

damn 😭

[manic horizon]

I assume its just erra lore

[barren jasper]

i mean pazuul specifically

[stiff fable]

He has an orange archon shard iirc

[manic horizon]

So then there must be purple and greens yes?

[stiff fable]

And all the Archons seem to have been Sentient nobility, modeled after extinct earth animals

[stiff fable]

While that seems logical, fused archon shards were concepted after the New War

[stiff fable]

All the fused shards we have were artificially made by Albrecht

[manic horizon]

Is that the shard in his head?

[stiff fable]

yyyyyyep

[manic horizon]

A spider based archon would be sick af

[stiff fable]

My favorite bit about Pazuul: he may have been made by Praghasa

[manic horizon]

Whos that

[stiff fable]

Lotus's mom

The Sentient mothership

The one that tried to eat the sun

Also, Erra's mom and Hunhow's "wife" for lack of a better term

One of the Pazuul lines during an archon hunt is Erra screaming like he's gone crazy

[manic horizon]

Wait so is she like a spirit or sum?

[stiff fable]

Bite my head clean off, Mother! That's where the good meat is! Suck the guts until the little legs kick, kick, kick!

[manic horizon]

Cause nataruk

[stiff fable]

No she's the whole spaceship

The sentients were giant machines

Praghasa's basically the size of the Zariman

[manic horizon]

So then who's bones????

[stiff fable]

Other sentients died

[stiff fable]

It's like asking what Rhino dropped the Corinth Prime during Kahl's part of New War

Kahl found a dead Rhino and took a Corinth Prime; the specifics aren't relevant

But Tenno killed plenty of Sentients

[manic horizon]

So is kin any sentient?

[stiff fable]

yes

[manic horizon]

Do all ballas type people have the long arm

[stiff fable]

Yeah

It's a fashion statement. Same with the blue skin.

[manic horizon]

And blue people control dax

And dax are who exactly?

[stiff fable]

Super soldiers

[north jolt]

He looks like a tripod in the second pic

[stiff fable]

Think Xerxes's immortals

People taken at birth and raised and trained

......huh interesting. I looked at Pazuul's voice lines and he's talking about going to Tau

....just like Albrecht.

[manic horizon]

What even is tau

[stiff fable]

Warframe's version of Tau Ceti

which is a star and solar system

[manic horizon]

Is it like a perfect society?

Why would children want to go there

[stiff fable]

This is a multi-part question

At the most basic, Albrecht got scared that humanity would die when the solar system collapses. And by humanity I mean the Orokin.

[manic horizon]

Aren't they effectively immortality

[stiff fable]

No, they just age very slowly

And when they get close to dying they steal someone else's body

He wanted to go to Tau to make sure that humanity wouldn't be totally tied to the solar system, since he expected the Orokin could keep up the bodyjacking and outlive it if they went elsewhere

[manic horizon]

I see, is this how they offered the beast of bones immortality

[stiff fable]

Got it in one

[lean garden]

Its the same reason anyone packs up their things and goes to a new land: a new start

[stiff fable]

So Albrecht's void travel experiments were about taking the shortcut to Tau

[manic horizon]

Abd is tau like humans?

[stiff fable]

No, actually!

[lean garden]

Tau has a grand total of 0 humans there

[stiff fable]

That's what the Zariman was for

[manic horizon]

ohhh

[stiff fable]

They were going to go to Tau and make it a place livable for humans

There were millions of people on the ship

[manic horizon]

So would sentients not be really useful there

[manic horizon]

And then most died because of the indifference to my understanding

[stiff fable]

That's the thing, the Zariman crashed into Wally and disappeared

[manic horizon]

So those who survived the crash fell victim to the indifference?

[stiff fable]

And then when it reappeared it had gotten freaky so the Orokin evacuated the weirdkids and pushed the Zariman back into the Void

[lean garden]

Well theyre the only things in Tau so

[stiff fable]

Everyone but the kids died

The "survivors" are actually the ghosts of the people who died either in the crash, killed themselves, died to each other, or were killed by the kids

[manic horizon]

Ghosts?

[lean garden]

The holdfasts are ghosts

[stiff fable]

Yeah, actual ghosts

[manic horizon]

Ah

I prolly shouldn't have skipped the photo thing where they talked

[stiff fable]

yyyyyyyep

go watch it on Youtube lol

Anyway, so the Zariman got weird and the Orokin were like "screw that not again"

But they still didn't want to die so some genius came up with the idea of sending robots to do the work instead

Eventually they did it, sent a bunch of giant machines to Tau that would learn how to make the planets good for humans

[lean garden]

And then they promptly determined that the humans werent good for the planets

[stiff fable]

Problem is, the machines took the step from being "thinking machines" to being "people" and yeah they knew allllll about the Orokin

So once they finished their work on Tau they turned themselves into weapons and came home to kill every last human that exists

Note that the Sentients weren't supposed to be able to void jump

They did it anyway and paid the price

[manic horizon]

And that price was?

Also sorry for all these questions

[stiff fable]

Oh, they can't replicate anymore

No new kids

Sentients can break off pieces of themselves

Like, imagine if you could stretch out your hand really really far

[manic horizon]

So is it like terminator basically

[stiff fable]

So far that it disconnects from your body but keeps working

Perfect analogy

But the Sentients that made the void jump back to the Origin System lost the ability to create new Sentients

[manic horizon]

So they're a dying race

[stiff fable]

Yeah

Doubly so since they were scattered at the end of the Old War

[manic horizon]

What even happened in the old war

[stiff fable]

Like, the New War happens just because Ballas and Erra forced Natah to fire a recall beacon

[stiff fable]

too much to say, it lasted like a few decades or centuries

[manic horizon]

Just a general sum?

[stiff fable]

The short version is that the Sentients came flying out of the Solar Relay near Pluto, took over the Orokin defense systems and started killed Orokin

[manic horizon]

I see

So this is when they came back from tau?

[stiff fable]

Yeah

First the Orokin sent dax after the Sentients. This worked but it takes decades to train dax so it's a bad trade since the Sentients are freaking space ship size

[manic horizon]

Oh nah

[stiff fable]

Next they went into their research labs and pulled out their strongest chemical weapon: the Infestation

They kept it the way the US and Russia keep smallpox

[manic horizon]

Infestation caused lots of problems

[stiff fable]

Needless to say this went very badly, since the Infestation found it easier to eat humans than Sentients

[manic horizon]

Plus it didn't stop at just flesh

Iirc was jordas not a cephalon

[stiff fable]

So then the Orokin got their slaves to fight the Sentients. The gardeners, the cooks, the tailors, the shoeshiners.

Though I should use the proper name for their clone-slaves: the Grineer

It took thousands or tens of thousands of Grineer to kill one Sentient

So this was also a bad exchange

[manic horizon]

Then did they make like some masks to "corrupt" people for them or something

Bc idk if the corruption is man made

[stiff fable]

Oh no the Corruption is just the defense system on the Orokin towers

Anyone who goes in that's not supposed to be there gets kidnapped by the defenses, tied down and cyberneticized/lobotomized

[restive river]

It appears it’s sometimes also a product of the void to some degree?
Def the defense system but Xaku’s 3 does the same exact effect iirc

[stiff fable]

wouldn't surprise me if they used it to induce brainwashing, it's basically the Narmer masks

[manic horizon]

Accuse?

[restive river]

The Orokin used the Dax and the Grineer
The Grineer have a loyalty gene
And the Dax can’t hurt the Orokin cause. Kuva ig.

[restive river]

Yes

[manic horizon]

But they couldn't control it as well I assume

[stiff fable]

And is "void juice holding memories and feelings"

[lament stirrup]

I think Corruption is just a form of void madness and the Nueral sentry masks ditect said madness at non orokin.

[stiff fable]

Oh nah the towers worked perfectly

weirdly enough

It's like the one thing that DIDN'T backfire on the Orokin

[restive river]

I can see that, directed and concentrated void magic tailor made to attack non-Orokin

[stiff fable]

.....we need to immediately inform DE that they missed a spot

[restive river]

Cephalons?

[manic horizon]

But you'd probably need void to affect them and make them mad first then which makes sense...

[stiff fable]

They would have known the Tenno were plotting rebellion

So I'll give them the benefit of the doubt

[manic horizon]

Ehh one nearly broke programming iirc ordis bc of the glitches but I may be dumb

[stiff fable]

Anyway, last part of start of the Old War

[lament stirrup]

We dont see any Orokin mass brainwashing systems outside of the void (and Lua survival, but those missions explicitly take place in areas close to the void)

[stiff fable]

Ballas decides to combine a few things he'd already tried

[restive river]

Ordis’ memories keep coming through but he keeps deleting them

[manic horizon]

Precisely. So narmer masks solved the problem of this void being needed then (assumption)

[restive river]

The cephalons are largely made to be obedient

[restive river]

Maybe, we don’t know how they work

[manic horizon]

He gets passed during jade missions

[stiff fable]

He takes the infestation and messes with it until he creates a new strain that doesn't connect to the Infested hive mind

[restive river]

It’s possible they use Kuva
Or they use a different method of void-based mind control
We don’t know, just that it induces lies rather than straight up control

[restive river]

Domestication

[stiff fable]

Then he takes some dax, some soldiers, a bunch of volunteers, some smart people and some prisoners and infests them with the new strain

The result is the Warframes

[restive river]

Took people he just didnt like too

[stiff fable]

And they're great! Void powers, super strength, regeneration, don't need food, don't complain

[restive river]

A worse punishment than being glassed

[manic horizon]

Is this why we're called void demon and have cysts

[stiff fable]

heh heh hold that thought

[restive river]

Minor problem; infestation eventually makes you go mad

[stiff fable]

The Warframes are the weapon that will win the war

Yeeeeeep, they all go crazy

[lament stirrup]

I'm fairly certain Narmer masks are wired into the sentient hive mind.

[restive river]

Ballas calls the tenno void demons as an insult

[stiff fable]

99% at least

[manic horizon]

But the meat wall does it too iirc

[restive river]

I’m not sure it’s stated anywhere, I think it could relate to kuva since it’s personalized

[manic horizon]

Is this why umbra went crazy

[stiff fable]

The Warframes end up being "denial weapons", you just toss them into a battlefield and it kills everything nearby

[stiff fable]

It's why Umbra doesn't remember anything except his son's death

[restive river]

Helminth was made by Ballas and was what he used to make the frames :p

[stiff fable]

Ballas played that memory on repeat

[lament stirrup]

That and Ballas forcing him to murder his own son before leaving him alone on the moon for a thousand years.

[manic horizon]

I guess to break him

[stiff fable]

That memory playing is why Umbra isn't completely crazy

All the Warframes we know that stayed sane had something to hold onto

[restive river]

To torture him, to punish him.

[stiff fable]

The ones that didn't, broke

[manic horizon]

This is messing up stalker for me

[restive river]

Kullervo had his crimes and his crush on Ballas
Jade her child
Stalker his hatred for us

[stiff fable]

Oh yeah, Stalker didn't go crazy because they messed him up EXTRA hard

[restive river]

And now his child

[lament stirrup]

Mirage was also apparently insane before Ballas got to her.

Given that she laughed through the process.

[manic horizon]

I don't understand stalker

[restive river]

They made him so loyal they didn’t even think to give him a tenno

[stiff fable]

And after the Warframe rebellion, Jade found him and kept him safe