lore-discussion

[lean garden]

according to some eggheads, a star much larger than our sun has enough mass to turn into a black hole, these black holes however, end up only a few miles across

[spice spade]

if you converted our sun into a blackhole, it would fizzle

[lean garden]

that said, this is science fiction and we do have singularity slinging weapons

[spice spade]

true

[brittle siren]

Here, better example on how Praghasa eat the Sun

https://youtu.be/WYtRuOz4Wvw?si=gej4_upYFIUl_Uke

[spice spade]

okay but that's explaining science fiction with science fiction.
The real point is: Hunhow can't make a portal to Tau, like Praghasa can.

[brittle siren]

We talking on how she eat the Sun first
The capability of Hunhow doing the same like Prag is for later

[spice spade]

with science fiction magic bs

[brittle siren]

Beside it very vague on how they really do it, like does Hunhow latch on his wife? Or he can just go through the rail, since he also pretty big for himself

[spice spade]

okay how big is Praghasa actually

[lean garden]

if you've seen mass effect's mass relays size doesnt matter that much

[spice spade]

could Praghasa use the solar rail?

[brittle siren]

We don't know, they build the rail and use it too

[fathom ridge]

Permission to add something off topic?

[brittle siren]

The Solar Rail in the Origin system can be use by normal Landing Craft, so they may have been using the same method

[spice spade]

Murex's are pretty big compared to a Railjack

so is Hunhow

[brittle siren]

If they could just manifest the the rail they wouldn't have to go this far

The portal probably the machine that Ballas equip in the New War

Not from Prag own ability

[lean garden]

I mean we should also consider that the rest of the system's occupants also use the rail, so larger grineer and corpo ships do indeed fit

[brittle siren]

Also I mean they could just open it anytime and spawn more troops to win

[spice spade]

Ballas was using Prag to make the jump tho

it's literally said in the quest.

[lean garden]

(although Im pretty sure that its a mass relay situation and thus no issue with size)

[brittle siren]

Yes because she the biggest ship

You really think Ballas would use tiny ship

He that selfish lmao

It just more convenient to equip a star sucking machine into the biggest available dead Sentient Ship

And last longer too

[spice spade]

a Balor Formorian is way smaller than Praghasa

[brittle siren]

You have to consider that Prag is a Sentient

And she adapted

The reason why only Sentient can go to Tau safely because of that

[lean garden]

"safely"

[brittle siren]

See Zariman? Yeah that what happened when you send normie ship to Tau

[brittle siren]

Sorry type too fast

[lean garden]

No lol that was an accident

Mag prime demonstrates that theres no issues sending your ships over

[spice spade]

Zariman could make it to Tau, Yonta is pretty sure if given a second-

wait

[lean garden]

(aside from sentients shooting at them)

[spice spade]

Uh, so since Albrecht can just...jump timelines and realities...
What's stopping us from just...going back into the past to make sure the Zariman makes it to Tau?

[lean garden]

well mainly because he and us are the clowns who live in this reality

[spice spade]

The Indifference is trapped in "the strands of Khra." And doesn't have full control of all available timelines because of Albrecht.

we could just...go to a Timeline where we make sure Yonta disables the securities so the Zariman makes it to Tau.

He went to 1999, in the past. Probably as a test.
We can probably go back to the time of the Zariman jump.

[brittle siren]

He literally kill every version of OP beside Drifter

[graceful swan]

And Operator

[lean garden]

well, given that our stunt in 1999 eventually cascades up to our present (see the Coda system), I'd wager that "fixing" the zariman incident would cause several really fat temporal paradoxes

we'd have bootstraps for miles

[spice spade]

We are already in a Paradox, Drifter and Operator coexisting is already one.

What's another one?

[lean garden]

yes, but thats like simple dimple compared to what would happen if you undo the zariman incident

cuz like Drifter and Operator are in causal terms very close to each other

[spice spade]

Considering Albrecht wants to fix his mistakes, he's probably willing to do that.

[lean garden]

but undoing the zariman incident? Thats no tenno, no warframes, no sentients

[spice spade]

He'd probably consider that a win.

[lean garden]

mmm, while this isnt out of character for albrecht to do, I'd wager that this would hardly serve his purpose against wally based on what we know

[lean garden]

not really, this would have no to negative bearing on his efforts against wally

[brittle siren]

And beside what would happened if we do that? We would die by old age because lack of void power and Warframe would not exist.
If we change the past and the futures change too, then every event ingame literally will never exist
If it branch into other timelines then it not worth changing and create more paradox that could be bad for us, because it could create "evil OP" that controlled by Wally for example. Possibility is infinite

[lean garden]

no bearing, because all that jazz happened after albrecht hard clowns himself
negative bearing, because he'd undermine all the work he's already put in to equip Drifter/Operator to combat wally

(and meta wise going to undo something as critical as the zariman incident will be a headache to write and implement)

[spice spade]

Eternalism is a thing.

All possibilities have and also haven't happened.

the Zariman getting to Tau is apart of Eternalism

[tall echo]

We can't hop into alternate timelines

[spice spade]

we've hopped into 1999

[brittle siren]

That's the point, Wally remove all but 2 possibilities

[lean garden]

eternalism is a thing yes, however, for albrecht's concerns, this is effectively useless to everyone

[tall echo]

The 1999 of our timeline

[spice spade]

Wally doesn't have full control.

[lean garden]

which is our past

[spice spade]

because he's lost that finger, he's stuck in the "Strands of Khra"

he's no longer fully omnipotent

[graceful swan]

Eternalism stuff is only theoretically accessible

[lean garden]

it dont matter if some other clown's timeline manages to get the good ending where there was no Old War or whatever, if your own timeline doesnt even get to benefit

[spice spade]

Just loop it

we looped 1999

[lean garden]

again, thats our 1999

[spice spade]

do you have proof if 1999 is in fact our timeline?

[tall echo]

That was a fixable issue thanks to albrecht's intervetions

[tall echo]

DE said so

[spice spade]

The Indifference was willing to eat that reality.

we stopped it.

[spice spade]

Source?

[lean garden]

currently the 1999 trailers regarding the coda indicate very very very clearly that we have a lil back to our past situation

I'd also need to check the coda tennocon/devstream stuff regarding how the coda system starts up

but essentially, you creating a coda in 1999, results in a coda appearing in modern times

[tall echo]

I don't have a link, my source is multiple other people here that know their stuff

[lean garden]

which in essence is basically pulling a 12th doctor and taking the long way around

[lean garden]

guh, this wiki paragraph remains a painful bane

[tall echo]

People always miss the big important word THEORETICALLY

[lean garden]

I'll have to go delete that line

[lean garden]

the wiki makes an incredibly unsubstantiated claim that "making a choice cannot change a pre-existing future"

[tall echo]

The wiki is also just not a reliable source for lore, it's not managed by DE

[lean garden]

Hell, its a logically fallicy that they've applied

[spice spade]

DE put Eteranlism into the game

[lean garden]

because the thing we do know about eternalism in 1999, is that all possible choice/chance events are simultaneously real, this much is taught to us in zariman's school

what is then assumed by the wiki is that you cannot change pre-existing futures

which is wrong on multiple independent accounts in the game

[tall echo]

Yes. They did not however put the wiki editors' assumptions into the game

[graceful swan]

Orokin Archives ftw

[lean garden]

the wiki effectively affirmed the anticedant for no God dman reason

[lean garden]

1. The Zariman tablet indicating that events can be changed, but remants of the original remain
2. The fact that you have God damn time rifts in the Lua Spy missions where you use it to change the future (which is your present)
3. (This is to be reevaluated when the Coda actually arrive) The Coda's existence in present time

[lean garden]

so basically, the wiki made an supremely unqualified statement

[spice spade]

this is literally in the game

the transcripts are a 1:1 copy of the game

[lean garden]

please read what I said entirely

[spice spade]

if we go to a timeline where the Indifference can't reach, and has no control over.
That new Timeline might as well be our new "Original"

He still exists, but now he can't get us.

[lean garden]

which then is really just running away from the problem, which is not really albrecht's full shtick, even if he does like to skedaddle

[tall echo]

Again, THEORETICALLY. accessible

[spice spade]

We accessed 1999, WE CHANGED EVENTS

Instead of the bomb going off, it didn't.

we're still here.

that Theoritical became real.

[lean garden]

yes! We changed our past!

[spice spade]

The original past was the bomb going off

[lean garden]

the events of 1999 will likely cascade back up to present day

[lean garden]

correct, we now changed it

as according to the palimpsest of space time

[graceful swan]

Why does everyone miss the words theoretically?

[spice spade]

we didn't, we looped the new timeline.

[lean garden]

written by the Entrati

[spice spade]

the old timeline is still there

[tall echo]

We did not access an alternate timeline at any point in the process

[spice spade]

there are two timelines: one where the bomb goes off
one where it didn't.

[lean garden]

when we reach 1999 in The Hex quest, we've stepped into a loop tho

[spice spade]

Both are real.

the loop was gonna get eaten by the Indifference.

we stopped that from happening.

[tall echo]

What does that even mean

[spice spade]

both of these timelines are true

1999 was gonna cease to exist.

[lean garden]

except now, the bombless timeline is the one that has been evidently expressed in the present day, because the coda arrive

[spice spade]

Yup, but our new Timeline is still true.

where the Hex are alive, and the bomb didn't go off.

[lean garden]

thats our timeline right now

we changed it

[spice spade]

it's not.

[lean garden]

The coda arrival says otherwise

[spice spade]

The techrot can survive a nuclear detonation

it would need a cascade bomb to fully kill it

[tall echo]

It can barely survive some acid

[lean garden]

The techrot cant even survive a nice boolet

[spice spade]

Techrot is the same as the Infestation

In lore, the Infestation can persist as long as one spore remains

[graceful swan]

Yeah dies with bullets

[spice spade]

we're talking lore

a nuclear bomb cannot purge all the spores.

[tall echo]

The cascade bomb was used to avoid destroying the entire place

[lean garden]

which is different when the coda you spawn in 1999 makes it all the way to present day

like your actions in 1999 results in the coda in the present day

[tall echo]

Cascade bomb only kills biological stuff

[lean garden]

you specifically did something that changed a thing in the future

[spice spade]

they coda would still persist in either timeline

[tall echo]

The reactor going off would destroy all the techrot in the radius

[spice spade]

it wouldn't

a nuclear bomb doesn't kill all biological life

[tall echo]

It would

[lean garden]

Homie, your actions in 1999 are currently in the bombless timeline, these same actions result in the coda spawn in present day

[tall echo]

That is a wild claim

[spice spade]

https://tenor.com/view/talking-wall-gif-5021467

[tall echo]

Lotus wanted to use a cascade bomb during that one quest to keep the place intact for recolonization or salvaging, not because it'd be more effective than just bombing it normally

[lean garden]

You presence in 1999 continues to ensure the reactor doesnt blow, as such the "timeline" is constantly bombless. Your actions are within the "timeline" where the bomb does not go off, because you ensure that it doesnt. Your actions in this same timeline are what results in your specific coda ending up in the present day

[graceful swan]

Cockroach surviving boom when?

[lean garden]

As such, the bombless 1999 timeline is your current timeline

because you, much like how the palimpsest of space time predicted, could change events

[tall echo]

Guess they ran out of arguments

Good, I've wasted enough time here already

[spice spade]

Nah because talking with you is a brick wall

[lean garden]

2. What is the core thesis of The Palimpsest of Spacetime?

A. Events can be rewritten; traces of the original persist (correct)

B. Everything that exists could, at any point, be erased
Palimpsest of spacetime in question

[tall echo]

Right back at ya

[graceful swan]

Nah you just failed to understand the truer telling of Eternalism

[lean garden]

which goes back into saying, the wiki claiming that you cannot change future events is wrong

[spice spade]

all realities are real, and accessible.

[lean garden]

yes, not the point of contention

[spice spade]

it really is.

[graceful swan]

Theoretically

Doesn't mean you will

[spice spade]

Drifter came from the timeline where the Tenno didn't take the deal
and the Operator from the timeline they did.

Yet they they are, both sitting next to each other,

[lean garden]

all realities being real and theoretically accessible actually has no relation to being unable to change the future, the wiki very much made that up on the spot

[spice spade]

Explain how Drifter and Operator can coexist.

[lean garden]

correction: they both took the deal, they only split upon taking the deal, into the operator who got rescued and the drifter who didnt, give me a moment to find the kim texts that state this

[graceful swan]

Because Eternalism

[lean garden]

being unable to change the future has no bearing on the two of them co-existing

[spice spade]

Onkko can see all the timelines, all possible ones, and he choose ours.

[tall echo]

[graceful swan]

Seeing doesn't mean you can change events

[spice spade]

He changed his, he choose the only one that would work

[lean garden]

he was always in our timeline, he just followed the events that would lead to the specified results, proving even more that you can change a pre-existing future

which goes back into saying that the wiki was wrong about being unable to change the future

[tall echo]

The quills adjust the timeline by doing actions that ensure we stay in the best possible one

[graceful swan]

Bau when are you gonna edit the wiki

[tall echo]

They never change the past, only the future

[spice spade]

yes please edit the wiki

let's see how long that edit lasts when DE reverts it

[tall echo]

DE doesn't manage the wiki

[graceful swan]

DE doesn't run the wiki

[tall echo]

They have nothing to do with it except the fact that they're the wf devs

[lean garden]

here we go

the Drifter didnt waltz over from a timeline that existed prior, his timeline was only made from when the deal was taken

and the only other thing that made it from that timeline was the zariman

[left locust]

Wondering: There should be an Albrecht's documents that goes over the various stages of technocyte/techrot infection on humans

[visual ermine]

So on a tangent Im mostly not paying attention to any time travel nonsense and implications until some later summaries and events occur:

but can y’all offer some clarity on why the 1999 loop must continue after the finale?

[spice spade]

DE definitely has some control of the wiki, why else would they link to it in the Warframe/.com directory.

[graceful swan]

Because it is the wiki for their game

They don't own it or anything

[lean garden]

they dont actually, they just have had conversations with the volunteers who run the place

[spice spade]

then they have some control over it.

[lean garden]

I just did

[graceful swan]

Linking something doesn't mean you own it

They just saw it as a good place for info so added it

Which for most things it actually is

[lean garden]

you still have the interview they've had regarding the wiki yea?

[graceful swan]

The one about raids and stuff?

[lean garden]

something of the like

[spice spade]

try editing the droptables

a lot of the pages are protected from "vandalism"

[graceful swan]

Sent it you bau

[spice spade]

and I still see Eteranlism on the main page

[lean garden]

Will Digital Extremes support the migration of the Fandom Wiki and set up an official one?

Megan: Oh, that's a good question. We've been having conversations about moving it, keeping it and it really just came down to the bandwidth of the team and being able to do that. It's a lot more difficult than I think one might think it is.

We're good where we are now, but we are having discussions about potentially moving it. The dream is to host our own, but that is obviously a much bigger conversation with our web team and everyone like that. So, we're good where we are but we are having conversations if we do feel like it.

Rebecca: Shout out to the people who actually run the wik****i. They're all volunteers. We wish we had a good answer for you if you have issues with the way it's hosted, but it's outside our control.

Megan: But we've been talking to the volunteers as well, and like, what do you guys want? Because you guys are the ones putting in the work,** we send you the assets and everything, but what is it that you guys want**? So, more to come.

[lean garden]

would you like to compare and see whats different?

[spice spade]

even with a cache refresh I still see it.

[lean garden]

Homie, you've seemed to be constantly missing my issue with the wiki's past paragraph about eternalism

which is the fully unqualified statement that you cannot change the future

[lean garden]

which if you peep this, is completely missing

[spice spade]

change the drop tables page

[lean garden]

Asking me to change the drop tables page is relevant how? I just demonstrated that I can change the eternalism page, which is the whole point of contention

[lean garden]

The wiki is very robust when it comes to gameplay, because this is drawn from hard data that DE sends willingly to the volunteer team

but when it comes to lore, it is completely arbitrary

[spice spade]

DE has to vouch for them

[lean garden]

because the narrative team guards their secrets closely

[graceful swan]

DE don't edit the wiki

[spice spade]

They have volunteers who DE has vouched for.

[graceful swan]

Still aren't DE

[lean garden]

Because if you click on the source for that massively unqualified statement claiming that you cant change the future, you will see that the cited text doesnt mention that at all

the source being the whole blurb directly above

[spice spade]

on a technicality

[tall echo]

[lean garden]

Great that you downloaded the audio, anyways, if we go back, there is nothing lorewise denoting that 1999 is not the past we changed that has future repercussions, and isnt even the first thing in the game that does that (Lua spy was doing that for a long time already)

[river tangle]

if anything, reckon there's a figure that the man in the wall cannot impersonate or...

[graceful swan]

Anyone he never got to witness

[feral cape]

Itd have to before as albretch gave up continuity following the incident

[feral cape]

Can you provide actual like concrete affirmation that you can not change an existing future because we mess with time alot
If changing the future was impossible the quills existence is pointless
In Duviri you alter events in the past to help the future
In 1999 you do 1999
Palpimset of spacetime

[spice spade]

we have 2 Zarimans in our reality.

[feral cape]

Spacetime rifts on lua

[feral cape]

And can you now explain how this means you can't change the future

[spice spade]

I didn't say we can't change the future.
I said we can go to the timeline where the Zariman was going to do the Tau jump, and we make it to Tau.

in Eternalism, all possibilities are real.

[feral cape]

Correct

We also can't go into other possibilities

[spice spade]

Entrati did.

[glacial bough]

Entrati specifically did not

[lean garden]

Which we've said over and over again, 1999 is our past

[spice spade]

and so is the Zariman Tau jump

[glacial bough]

What?

[lean garden]

not an alternate reality, we've gone back in time

[spice spade]

Drifter was from the timeline where he accepted the deal and he didn't get saved.

[lean garden]

To which he was manifested into our timeline because the zariman was a field of unrealised potentials

as such, only him and his zariman remain

[spice spade]

why can't we go back in time to the Zariman launch then

[glacial bough]

We could. There's no reason too

[spice spade]

Entrati wants to go to Tau.

[lean garden]

I didnt say we couldnt, I've only repeatedly said that its a horrible idea for albrecht's own campaign against wally

[glacial bough]

Plus Albrecht broke the tech for it

[spice spade]

The realitiy where the Zariman went to Tau is real.

[spice spade]

go back in time where the tech still existed and recreate it.

[glacial bough]

Maybe. But that timeline is irrelevant

[lean garden]

Entrati's campaign against wally is not resolved by reaching Tau

[spice spade]

He literally offered the Drifter to go to Tau.

[lean garden]

time traveling and undoing our zariman incident is the opposite of resolving the wally issue

because he'd bootstrap the caca out of us

[spice spade]

it's not undoing it, we're going to the timeline that went to Tau

the timeline where we didn't still existed.

[feral cape]

Again we can not do that

[spice spade]

it wasn't changed.

[spice spade]

why

[lean garden]

1. We still cant go to another timeline
2. This is not condusive in the campaign against wally

[graceful swan]

No, he didn't he said Tau is in sight not Drifter join me in Tau

[spice spade]

He wants to go to Tau, Albrecht is gone from 1999 along with Wally, he already had a way to get to Tau.

[feral cape]

Crude ms paint drawing

[spice spade]

that's not how the strands of khra work

[feral cape]

Albrechts tech let's him jump around in our timeline not into another timeline

[graceful swan]

Certainly a line of all time

[feral cape]

Shhh

[spice spade]

he can go back in time to the Zariman jump, before it did

[lean garden]

its on a line alright

[spice spade]

it's not another timeline

[feral cape]

And then accomplish what?

[spice spade]

but if it goes to Tau, he goes there, and our timeline still works

[feral cape]

Getting rid of the only hope of defeating the great indifference

[lean garden]

if he undoes the zariman incident, our timeline would be very changed

[spice spade]

he said he wanted to go Tau, with his time machine, he can do it.

[graceful swan]

It's on line on time alright

[spice spade]

he doesn't undo it, he goes to the other timeline

[lean garden]

under the neon glow

[silk atlas]

The time machine we know was broken by Loid.

[spice spade]

he can make another.

[feral cape]

Again he can not undo the tennos incident or we the tenno cease to be

And he needs us for his goal

[spice spade]

he's not undoing it, he's going to the timeline where the ship went to Tau

[feral cape]

He cant go into another timeline

[spice spade]

he can go into the past and just go down a different branch

[feral cape]

He can go to any point in the timeline he is currently in

[lean garden]

as we've discussed about the events of 1999 much earlier, you absolutely can change the past to affect the future, because thats what the drifter has done to 1999, there wasnt an alternate timeline that we've somehow slipped 1999 into, we've bonked that timeline to change the future

In this vein, albrecht would be changing our past, changing our future

[spice spade]

which includes the Zariman jump

[feral cape]

Which will undo the current branch and remove us the tenno from existence

[graceful swan]

He's just going to Tau that's not going to another timeline

[spice spade]

Eternalism says otherwise.

[feral cape]

Because the past affects the future

Except eternalism doesn't

[spice spade]

that's Presentism

[feral cape]

No it's not

[spice spade]

it sure is

[feral cape]

Because the past still very obviously leads upto the future

[lean garden]

Just because the other timeline is real does not make for a second that entrati, in his act of fixing the zariman incident, wont change the future of the timeline he just adjusted

[spice spade]

I'm dying on this hill

[feral cape]

Can you provide actual like concrete affirmation that you can not change an existing future because we mess with time alot
If changing the future was impossible the quills existence is pointless
In Duviri you alter events in the past to help the future
In 1999 you do 1999
Palpimset of spacetime

[lean garden]

then die a fool

[glacial bough]

Then you're dying

[spice spade]

lol

[feral cape]

And the time rifts on lua

[spice spade]

Eternalism says all possibilities are real

[graceful swan]

Entrati will not miss you dead on that hill

[glacial bough]

It does. It does not work how you're saying at all

[limber pulsar]

a possibility being real doesnt mean you can do anything with it

[spice spade]

it does

[feral cape]

Semantics but it's all possible possibilities minor but important distinction

[glacial bough]

Entrati changing the Zariman event just changes our timeline, it doesn't put him in a new timeline

[blissful merlin]

…but we’re still affecting only OUR timeline. We aren’t visiting entirely different new ones or anything. I don’t see how albrecht visiting tau would be him jumping to another timeline entirely.

[spice spade]

no we're not

it doesn't change it

[lean garden]

Just because you can see the other highway next to yours doesnt mean you can blow up your highway to jump over to the other and expect your original highway to remain intact

[glacial bough]

It explicitly does it change it

[spice spade]

it doesn't

[feral cape]

Can you provide actual like concrete affirmation that you can not change an existing future because we mess with time alot
If changing the future was impossible the quills existence is pointless
In Duviri you alter events in the past to help the future
In 1999 you do 1999
Palpimset of spacetime

[glacial bough]

We're literally told you can change events

[blissful merlin]

2. What is the core thesis of The Palimpsest of Spacetime?

A. Events can be rewritten; traces of the original persist (correct)

B. Everything that exists could, at any point, be erased

[feral cape]

The quills do it

[spice spade]

we changed 1999

[feral cape]

The quills see the future and decide nuh uh I don't like it

[graceful swan]

Let me get some explosives and test that

[feral cape]

The quills make there own fate tm

[glacial bough]

Yeah, and that's still the same timeline, not a new one

[feral cape]

And then had an affect on the future the coda

[spice spade]

we made two timelines, one where the bomb went off, the other, it did not

[glacial bough]

We did not

[spice spade]

DE could retcon the whole RJ confrontation

and make the Coda fight in 1999

[feral cape]

They won't

[spice spade]

they could

[feral cape]

Yea and I could be made of cheese

[graceful swan]

Where was it mentioned we made 2 timelines

[lean garden]

are you the moon?

[feral cape]

Does that it make logical to then proceed as if im made of cheese

[spice spade]

where the Hex died all the other loops

with the bomb going off

[feral cape]

Yes because it's a timeloop

[lean garden]

and we changed that

[feral cape]

A circle on a line

[spice spade]

how does it affect our timeline if it loops

[lean garden]

our timeline is now one where the reactor does not blow, because we changed it

[graceful swan]

This conversation is going in circles

[spice spade]

mhm

but the timeline loops

if it loops you can't make the timeline go forward.

it just loops around

[limber pulsar]

still only the 1 timeline

[spice spade]

but they were both loops

[feral cape]

No need for alternative timelines

[spice spade]

nah

[lean garden]

because while the snippet of the timeline loops around, the events of the timeline still occur, meaning that outside the loop those events are carried on. This is why you are still in 1999 after you stop the reactor from blowing, to ensure the reactor never blows

[feral cape]

Yes that is how it works

[spice spade]

nah

[blissful merlin]

@spice spade its a loop not a spiral…lol

[spice spade]

we can go to the Zariman ship and go to Tau

[lean garden]

real estate on your hill is cheap because the land is poor

[spice spade]

mhm

[feral cape]

We could and then we'd erase the tenno from existence

[spice spade]

we can go to Tau via the Zariman jump

nah

[glacial bough]

We can't

[spice spade]

we can

[graceful swan]

We can't though it's plugging a hole

[glacial bough]

Not without changing our own timeline

[spice spade]

we go back in time

nah

Drifter fused with our timeline, he was seperate.

[glacial bough]

That's explicitly how that works.

[spice spade]

nah

Drifter is just the Operator, now we have two.

from two seperate timelines.

They're both very real.

[lean garden]

and both are in each side of the hole

[spice spade]

that's Drifter's Zariman

the Tenno's Zariman is long gone

[glacial bough]

Which is in Duviri

[limber pulsar]

tragically, most people don't conisder "nah" to be a compelling piece of evidence

[spice spade]

nah

[lean garden]

you have two zarimans, both of them are facing out from the hole

[graceful swan]

There are 2 Zarimen

[spice spade]

the Operator Zariman came back

[lean garden]

Zarimen

[spice spade]

Drifter's didn't.

[graceful swan]

Zariwomen when?

[lean garden]

Still have two zarimans pointing in opposite directions

[spice spade]

Drifter's Zariman is connected to Duviri, his own pocket dimension.

it's not the same Zariman, it's Drifters.

Operator's Zariman came back a long time ago, and Margulis was there.

we have 2 Zarimans, Two Operators from different timelines.

One where they got saved, the other consigned to the void, to live in Duviri.

Drifter's Zariman popped out of the void after Drifter came to our Operator's reality.

[graceful swan]

The Orokin still got rid of the Operators Zariman somewhere which was throwing it into the Void

[spice spade]

proof?

:3

why would the Zariman our operator came from be also lodged between Duviri?

[lean garden]

how will you then account for the two zarimen facing in opposite directions

[spice spade]

Void

how did Lotus's hand end up in Duviri?

that hand was from the Operator timeline, not Drifter's

[graceful swan]

Void portal

[spice spade]

So we can go to Drifter's Tau with any void portal?

what about the Tau of 1999?

Tau exists in 1999

[graceful swan]

It may exist but hasn't been discovered yet

[spice spade]

but we know where it is, Albrecht does.

[graceful swan]

We know it exists Albrecht knows where it is we never got there

[lean garden]

drifter himself states that all that remains of their timeline and their zariman

[spice spade]

which is the Zariman that is connected to Duviri

the same Zariman that is in our system.

[graceful swan]

Zariman art shows 2 Zarimen

[spice spade]

so, great, we can just go to our timeline of 1999, and go to Tau.

[glacial bough]

Which can't be moved or anything done with

[spice spade]

yeah, the Drifter and Operator's Zariman

[lean garden]

great, you've gone to an unterraformed bunch of rocks in another system

[spice spade]

we have 2 Zarimans

[blissful merlin]

"Before you ask, no, we can't move the ship. Something I wasn't sure existed has burst through the Albrecht Membrane, and right now the Zariman is plugging that hole. Pop her out, and we'd see Void Storms from here to Mercury. Which would be fascinating, if memorably horrible.”

[glacial bough]

We really don't

[spice spade]

so he's wrong? @glacial bough

[glacial bough]

Op Zariman can't be moved and Drifter Zariman is fused with Duviri

[spice spade]

so there's 2

[blissful merlin]

Those are still 2 diff versions of the zariman

[lean garden]

And on top of that going to tau in 1999 is worthless because its not developed

[blissful merlin]

That also. It’d be pointless.

[spice spade]

who says it has to be devolped?

did Entrati specifically say it had to?

[lean garden]

who says albrecht is going there for the potential real estate?

[spice spade]

he offered Drifter to go to Tau.

he didn't specify which Tau

[lean garden]

like you dont even bother to suggest a reason why entrati wants to go to tau, much less align it with entrati's campaign against wally

[blissful merlin]

Who said he was going to the one in 1999? Just cuz he said it back when he was in 1999 does not mean he was talking about visiting tau in 1999. That’d make no sense.

[spice spade]

he said his next stop was Tau in the 1999 quest.

[lean garden]

Ok champ, now that we're here skimming the surface, lets dive a lil deeper and ask ourselves "why" before blindly throwing things out there

[glacial bough]

He suggested it. All Albrecht said is "Tau is in sight"

[spice spade]

we have no info

we also have no info about that solar rail being in the Origin system.

[lean garden]

You've barely even considered any potential motivations for entrati to hop over to tau, you've just randomly assumed any version of tau works

[limber pulsar]

sure theres probably a way to go to 1999 tau, but why? theres also a present day tau

[spice spade]

also, if the solar rail to Tau was broken from the Origin system's side.
why wouldn't the Grineer or Corpus rebuild it.

[lean garden]

For what?

[spice spade]

resources.

[glacial bough]

How would they

[spice spade]

Because the solar rail to Tau was destroyed.

[glacial bough]

They don't know how these things work

[spice spade]

why would Pazuul know

[lean garden]

Orokin era technology of which the grineer and corpus barely understand and constantly hunt for, you think they'd know how to build and work it?

[glacial bough]

Because the Sentients have made one already

[lean garden]

because his people were the ones who were tasked to build it

[limber pulsar]

even if they did repair it, grineer and corpus arent in a rush to start a war with the sentients on tau

[lean garden]

especially considering how they got dog walked in both old and new wars

[spice spade]

do you know specificially if Erra knows?

if Hunhow knows?

[lean garden]

We know that the sentient faction knows how to, and that Erra-Pazuul, being designed as a leader-type sentient, and being in control of the non-hunhow sentient forces, stands the greatest chance in knowing how to repair the rail

[spice spade]

but does he know?

you said chance.

there's no one hundred percent certainty

[glacial bough]

He would, the Sentients would know as a whole

[spice spade]

how?

[lean garden]

your gotchas are lame, "not 100% certainty" is a fools cop out

[spice spade]

mhm

this is all speculation anyways

[glacial bough]

It very much is a certainly, the Sentients would have the same baseline knowledge apart of their creation

[spice spade]

none of this really matters until DE makes new content.

[restive river]

Wait so that means Lotus would know how to build a solar rail too, right?

[lean garden]

Hell, if the allusion that Praghasa is the main component of the original sentient is still true, then Pazuul is literally sitting on the one thing that does know

[spice spade]

Praghasa has the ability to open up void holes

that act as solar rails

[restive river]

Dang guess we just won’t speculate on anything ever cause DE didn’t make it yet

[lean garden]

If praghasa was the original sentient, then praghasa built the rail in the first place

so praghasa knows

[spice spade]

guess we also shouldn't just also fire down any and all speculation because, "nah uh."

gotta love the double standard.

[restive river]

There’s a difference between shooting down speculation just cause and shooting it down with actual cause based off of observation and present understandings.

[spice spade]

could also mention that Belric and Rania's love made a temporal rip in spacetime.

And if you brought either Belric or Rania to Tau, there's the wormhole to and from Tau once you get there.

[restive river]

I mean in theory yeah
But how ya gonna get em there?

[feral cape]

Which still brings the issue of getting to tau

[spice spade]

repair and fix Praghasa, feed it nuclear power, bring one of them to Tau.

[restive river]

We know someone who already knows a theoretical method to get to Tau
Her name is Yonta.

[spice spade]

yonta said if she had a second chance to do the void jump, she could get there.

[glacial bough]

Great, how are you getting Praghasa

[spice spade]

but nah, going back in time to the jump and tell Yonta is breaking the timeline.

[lean garden]

also like nuclear reactors are just overglorfied water boilers

[restive river]

We unfortunately don’t know Praghasa’s fate or if she’s even recoverable after the new war
She was already a corpse but after the whole thing with the sun?
Also why nuclear power?

[spice spade]

blah blah entrati said the rare spark of the bomb going off can let him escape 1999 blah blah

[restive river]

Why would we do that?
We could just use her knowledge in the present lol

[lean garden]

The way that any nuclear reactor works currently is by boiling water, we dont actually harness nuclear energy like praghasa would eat the sun

[restive river]

That’s not what he said?

[spice spade]

he needed the bomb to go off to escape 1999

we didn't allow that to happen, but he's still gone.

[restive river]

I feel like he was talking about containing Wally so we could escape, we obviously don’t need the bomb to go off to leave since we do it just fine.
But idk 🤷‍♀️

[lean garden]

plus like Nuclear power isnt that uncommon by 1999

[spice spade]

he said it was rare in that timeline

[feral cape]

Guess what else is rare

[lean garden]

in fact an issue in that time was that it was getting too common so we had to get treaties to prevent its proliferation

[feral cape]

The void

[spice spade]

these nuts

[feral cape]

Everytime we make a new energy source it's always boiling water

[spice spade]

you got any of the Hex that says it

[lean garden]

its called a history book

[restive river]

I feel like that rare spark was it going off?

[spice spade]

1999 isn't our timeline

I guess we also have Techrot too?

[restive river]

It is an alt earth but it’s also clear many things are very very similar

[lean garden]

such as the existence of the nuclear reactor relies on the pre-existence of the nuclear bomb

[restive river]

Both have computers, nokias, cars, yes there are differences but there are many many similarities too.

[lean garden]

and that major nations like the US, canada, japan etc still exist, although in different forms

[spice spade]

all of this is pointless, meaningless speculation until more stuff comes out.

[restive river]

Nothing currently says one way or the other, our only view of this alt earth is really just Höllvania.

[restive river]

Then why are you speculating?

[spice spade]

because I love wasting time

[lean garden]

personally the rare spark to me seems more like our use of our space magic to resolve 1999

because like, when we looped it during the quest the reactor didnt even go off

albrecht didnt even "escape" with the explosion

[restive river]

I mean his actual plan was def for us to get close to the Hex lol

[lean garden]

drifter reset the loop before that happened

[restive river]

Yeah the explosion only happens during the intro

[lean garden]

yea so like albrecht didnt even cool-guys-dont-look-at-explosions his way out

he shot two dudes and then dipped

[graceful swan]

Warframe 1999 lore drops when?

[spice spade]

we could also just have enough emotions and ideas about going to Tau, and with everybody holding hands and singing kumbaya we can make it there.

[restive river]

The Kalymos Sequence only completes when we save the Hex
His actual plan was for us to get close to others
And it would make more sense for him to utilize our power over what would be a common power source

[restive river]

I’m still holding out hope we could get some codex entries for 1999 but the Hex convos kinda cover most things as is :p

[spice spade]

Cavalero sure had enough compassion about weapons to make Incarnon Adapters
just get the entire Origin System to really wanna go to Tau, click their heels 3 times and then be deposited at Tau.

[restive river]

Yes we all know how conceptual embodiment works.

[graceful swan]

When Albrecht said our other was he referring to Operator or Wally clone?

[restive river]

Operator

[glacial bough]

Operator

[restive river]

Cause he was talking about us acting childish cause we refused to kill Russalka

Which ig Wally was using her akin to a Warframe? That’s how the Drifter described it anyway

[graceful swan]

I don't see him killing anyone so can I call him childish?

[spice spade]

Wally is a personification of the Void.

[glacial bough]

Maybe

[spice spade]

The Indifference goes to great length to liken us a butchers of their flesh.

[graceful swan]

We don't really know what Wally really is yet

[restive river]

Unproven

[graceful swan]

Wally is meant to be a mystery

[glacial bough]

Because Wally was butchered, he lost his finger(s). That doesn't confirm he a personification of the void

[restive river]

The most we have on Wally is Albrecht is responsible for him in some form
It sounds like he created him which I do think is true to some extent, but we have yet to really understand what exactly Wally is other than a void entity.

[restive river]

Classic eldritch being moment

[graceful swan]

DE did confirm even with these Wally lore drops they want to keep the answer secretive still

[restive river]

It def sounded like how Albrecht felt about himself when he stepped into the void influenced Wally to some extent
So
Conceptual embodiment
It sounds like Wally may have existed prior too, both could be true? But we don’t know for certain just what has been hinted and told

[restive river]

That’s good tbh, keep the mystery alive to an extent

[graceful swan]

Albrecht said Wally is old as stars

[restive river]

Did he predate Albrecht or did he truly create him?
Albrecht seems to think he made him
Sythel claim as such but she’s likely going off of what Albrecht said when he visited
It also sometimes sounds like Wally existed long before Albrecht stepped foot into the void

[restive river]

And also says he created him

[graceful swan]

DE truly wanting a mystery

Actually could be both

[restive river]

Ye

I’m fine with it being a mystery, I’m just glad we got some answers

Like what Wally gave us
A piece of himself

I’m still hoping we will go further with out void abilities, maybe figure out some void tongue and utilize it

[graceful swan]

He was fine with giving us the gift but unhappy that he didn't move his fingers out of the way of the door is Wally stupid?

[restive river]

If he was born right there and then, yes

[graceful swan]

I've heard theories that only one finger actually dropped but it duplicated

[restive river]

Otherwise
Also yes

[restive river]

I just wanna see the original finger smh

I feel like he has to get it during this arc and we find a way to overpower him somehow

[graceful swan]

Wally asking us where it is like we were Albrecht

Did Wally even care with us being in 1999?

[restive river]

New war but with Wally
Wally wins but wuh oh we have love and we’re gonna hug and kiss the eldritch being to death
Or
Maybe get a cool new seriglass weapon that’s so powerful it can cut Wally’s finger off again lol

[restive river]

🤷‍♀️

I’m still unsure if it was him or Russalka asking who Drifter was

[graceful swan]

It didn't seem like Wally was trying to stop us much until the death part

[strange turtle]

Gomaitru uses CE to force him into Vilcor’s shape and repeats The Incident

[graceful swan]

I remember saying that one hex was definitely going to die way before it released I never expected all 6 dying

[restive river]

[strange turtle]

Should be Rusalka, given the Wally stuff in Duviri

[restive river]

Just because Wally was messing with Duviri does not mean he’d know who the Drifter is
He should know based off the fact they had a deal though

Also probably the fact Drifter can appear during the new war end portion when Wally shows up

[graceful swan]

He probably didn't care after the deal and stopped caring where Drifter was until Duviri spawned and Albrecht showed up there

[strange turtle]

You can encounter a not-Wally in Duviri + the Zariman tablets that he messes with being aimed at the Drifter specifically

[steady edge]

Why didn't kahl keep the corinth prime? Is he acoustic?

[graceful swan]

It probably got took off him by Narmer

Lets go steal it back

[steady edge]

I forgor about that

[restive river]

The Vagabond, that interaction sure is an interaction
Also yes we know they had a deal cause the tablets, Wally should know who they are

[steady edge]

Thanks

[restive river]

Lets give him a new one

[graceful swan]

I wonder who Wally wants more between Albrecht and Operator

[restive river]

That makes sense tbh since he didnt give Drifter anything lmao

[restive river]

Considering he chased Albrecht all the way to 1999, I’m inclined to say Albrecht

[strange turtle]

A Solstice Corinth Prime for Tennobaum

[spice spade]

Why does Teshin say we can undo history in the Circuit defense.

we can apparently just rewrite history by defending the target in the defense.

and it does nothing

[steady edge]

You rewrite duviris hostory all the time

And it does nothing all the time

[spice spade]

he said "Origin System"

We can undo history in the Origin System via the Paradox of Duviri

[restive river]

We don’t?

The defense target is def related to the origin system

Things just kinda
Fall into Duviri sometimes

[steady edge]

oh i didn't know. But we do rewrite duviri all the time, wasn't it a book?

[spice spade]

Yet if we save it, it somehow alters the history of the Origin system.

[restive river]

2. What is the core thesis of The Palimpsest of Spacetime?

A. Events can be rewritten; traces of the original persist (correct)

[spice spade]

...so

hear me out.

[restive river]

Yeah idk why anything would suggest things can’t be rewritten when the game tells us they can lol
Plus we see that

[spice spade]

actually, no.

[restive river]

Ok

[spice spade]

I'm not gonna say the whole thing again.

[feral cape]

Can you provide actual like concrete affirmation that you can not change an existing future because we mess with time alot
If changing the future was impossible the quills existence is pointless
In Duviri you alter events in the past to help the future
In 1999 you do 1999
Palpimset of spacetime

[spice spade]

Even when you plainly stated that Events can be rewritten, and the Original persists.

[feral cape]

You do

[restive river]

Do we :?
i always interpreted it as Thrax just resetting the day

[spice spade]

Apparently us rewriting history in the Circuit, and making battles lost, not, doesn't affect our timeline in the slightest.

okay

[restive river]

It does affect it? Just not in the ways you’re expecting it to

[feral cape]

This Tenno asset is destined to be destroyed by hostile forces. Intervene and change its fate
Many defensive battles within the Origin System were lost. Through the Paradox, you now have the chance to undo those defeats."
History dictates that this Tenno asset was destroyed in a grave setback to the cause. Let us rewrite that event."

[feral cape]

Gameplay shenanigans

[spice spade]

:)

[restive river]

I was talking about Duviri itself, not us rewriting events in the origin system :p

[feral cape]

Its obviously not really possible to demonstrate the change because we don't actually exist within that universe thus we can't see the history changing

[steady edge]

Sorry but I don't see how it's mutually exclusive

Like, if you rewrote it... It's already like that in the present time, it always has been

[feral cape]

Its a gamemode I can play at any time meaning at any given moment in changkng history

[spice spade]

the timeline is one line

[restive river]

Afaik I don’t think it’s stated anywhere that Warframe’s time works like the butterfly effect
Like just cause a battle was won doesn’t mean it altered history

[strange turtle]

Duviri is a world from a book that Drifter conceptually embodied into an actual place, and implied by KIM conversations to be constrained by this origin.

[feral cape]

Time being causality indicates the butterfly effect holds true

[steady edge]

Who says the drifter didn't save the defense and has been like that since the beginning of the game?

[restive river]

We know events can be rewritten and that those events don’t wholly shake up the timeline

[feral cape]

And the white space is the void

[spice spade]

why would Duviri just have access to all timelines in the Origin system

[steady edge]

Why not

[restive river]

We also traces of the original persist

[feral cape]

Because it's outside linear time

[strange turtle]

The Butterfly Effect isn’t some meta concept applied to how time works in fiction

[steady edge]

I mean, duviri does leak out all the time. Void storm.

[restive river]

And it does seem that Operator and Drifter are connected

[spice spade]

oh so Duviri can just randomly pick and choose any timeline?

[steady edge]

Yep

That's how we get incarnons

[spice spade]

Incarnons are made by Cavalero's conceptual embodiment

[restive river]

My point is more so that we have observed being able to change history and it doesn’t completely alter the future to the point it’s unrecognizable :p

[strange turtle]

It’s just the term given to the fact that if you changed something minor in the past, it could have knock-on effects that result in a much bigger change

[restive river]

Incarnons are conceptually embodied

[steady edge]

I'm saying that we already live in that altered future

[feral cape]

It can affect our timeline

[restive river]

I’m not so sure about that based off infested liches alone
But we’ll see exactly how those work probably next month

[spice spade]

so, Duviri can affect all timelines, but explicitly not our own?

[steady edge]

Read again

[feral cape]

How did you

How did you get the literal exact opposite of what I said

[spice spade]

Communication isn't my strong suit.

[restive river]

We do know you can create one in the past and that it appears in the “present” but I’m not certain they always existed as they needed to be created… yay paradoxes :p

[spice spade]

Can we go to different timelines through Duviri

[restive river]

Yet to be seen

[spice spade]

I mean we can change timelines via Duviri

[restive river]

The only individual who has ever interacted with other timelines and eternalism has been Wally

[restive river]

Altering time and jumping to another timeline are two different things

[spice spade]

We literally changed an object lost to time, not

Okay but why can we affect other timelines

[restive river]

2. What is the core thesis of The Palimpsest of Spacetime?

A. Events can be rewritten; traces of the original persist (correct)

[spice spade]

so there's timelines where both the object and is and isn't destroyed.

[restive river]

That
Would be eternalism yes

But we are specifically rewriting history

[steady edge]

Like how there's a protag that did and didn't accept the gift

[spice spade]

would there be a timeline where Albrecht never interferred with 1999

[restive river]

Not moving timelines but altering the course of events

[restive river]

If there is, and there likely is, it is not accessible.

Again, we are not moving to other timelines
We are altering history, our own timeline

It isn’t a different timeline, it’s the same one just changed

Like a book but you rewrote a portion of it

[main crane]

Probably the timeline where Eleanor became nun

[spice spade]

so there's a timeline where Lotus's hand never reached Duviri.

[restive river]

We aren’t rewriting the book and it becomes a different book.

[restive river]

Eeehh, time in the void is weird so I’m not as certain on that

[lean garden]

both drifter and operator accepted the deal (because they were the same person when it happened), they just had different outcomes

[restive river]

Drifter didnt get a piece of Wally
Operator did get a piece of Wally
One was not saved, the other was
One made Duviri, the other went to war.

[spice spade]

no, no. If there is a Timeline where Albrecht never entered 1999, and it's just not accessible
there's a timeline where Drifter is still stuck in Duviri.

that Drifter is just inaccessible.

[restive river]

Unknown based off the fact that 1999 is not in the void but the Drifter is

[spice spade]

So is the void a junction to timelines?

[restive river]

And depending on your interpretation of the scene during the new war it may be that we were collapsed into two possibilities

[main crane]

Not just two actually

[restive river]

If it is that still does not mean those timelines are accessible.

[graceful swan]

Is there a timeline where the Zariman made it to Tau and the crew built the stuff the Orokin wanted?

[restive river]

Wdym?

[spice spade]

yea, probably.

[restive river]

In theory yes

[graceful swan]

I wanna access it

[spice spade]

There's also a timeline where Ballas destroyed the Origin System and went to Tau.

[graceful swan]

He probably died after getting there

[restive river]

Other timelines aren’t really relevant since we lack the ability to access them 😔

[spice spade]

there's also a timeline where Lotus did kill the Tenno, and the sentients won.

can Wally access them?

[graceful swan]

Wally murdered them

[restive river]

It appears so yes

[normal mountain]

Maybe if we could convince Eleanor to look...

[lean garden]

it does?

[restive river]

He may or may not have collapsed our possibilities and he def seemed to collapse all Baros into one

[main crane]

In The New War, we see a lot of versions of the Tenno dying after he shook the hand of Wally, with only the Tenno from our timeline and Drifter gaining void abilities. Also according to Drifter in the KIM messenger, the Zarminan plugging the hole in the Void is actually composed of multiple realities of Zariman ships converging.

[graceful swan]

Wally just killed the timelines

[lean garden]

access and collapse seem to be different things yazimme

[restive river]

What
It appears that Wally can access other possibilities, no :?

[spice spade]

wait, Albrecht didn't preform continuity

[graceful swan]

He did

[main crane]

He didn't

[graceful swan]

He just stopped eventually

[restive river]

That’s fair
Though I would def assume you can only collapse if you have some level of access, could be he has true access with his finger though which is why it’s so dangerous if he gets it

[lean garden]

I would say that its possible to have the power to pull other timelines to your own, but not go to other timelines

would be easier for DE to write anyhow

[restive river]

I’m still not sure what you mean
Those other versions of us died
There’s only two versions of us

[lean garden]

Also according to Drifter in the KIM messenger, the Zarminan plugging the hole in the Void is actually composed of multiple realities of Zariman ships converging.?
Is this with eleanor?

[restive river]

Yeah I can def see that
Especially with full access being obtained with the finger

[main crane]

Actually lemme check (I'm gonna open Warframe cuz I forgot)

[restive river]

I believe it was Eleanor since we get into void stuff a lot with her
Could have been Quincy too tho

Def not Amir :p

[graceful swan]

Albrecht used to do it then Wally's existence scared him out of it

[spice spade]

so wouldn't that mean Albrecht died when his body gave out

[graceful swan]

Eventually, his body will die of old age, yes

[restive river]

The Orokin live for a long time even without continuity

His days are numbered tho

[spice spade]

what's the timeframe between Entrati finding Wally, to him sending himself away.

[strange turtle]

Unknown

[lean garden]

Kimulacrum is fun, I just found a kim that confirms if the hex remember a reset

[restive river]

Since he was around long enough to see the Zariman and lived well into the Old War where he eventually left to 1999

[main crane]

Here you go

[restive river]

And?

[lean garden]

they do

[restive river]

I’m
Not doubting this chat happened lol

[main crane]

And yes. It's with Eleanor

[spice spade]

I mean, is his current body augmented with life prolonging tech?

[restive river]

Multiple Zarimans don’t mean multiple uses since we saw them die and the only relevant ones presently are Operator and Drifter :p

[restive river]

Yes
He’s an Orokin.

[spice spade]

are the Zariman paintings of his "Orokin" self a past continuity

[restive river]

Darvo is well over 100 and considered young and that’s just Corpus tech

[restive river]

Yes, or him before his boyfriend grew back his skin

[main crane]

Well, it still implies that there's multiple us. Just dead :3

[spice spade]

when did Loid do that

[restive river]

I think we’ve just been in agreement this whole time lmao

[strange turtle]

Should be in Albrecht’s Notes

[restive river]

It is

[main crane]

Yeah lmao

[graceful swan]

I wonder how long a Tenno can live for

[restive river]

Loid nursed him back to health

Love the part where they get high together and Albrecht is just like “I should throw cooler animals into the void” lmao

[strange turtle]

Disgust did the work of courage. I tore the mundane membrane, slid weak and mucosal into Loid's embrace.

Loid nursed me then, tending first to the uprooted ruin of my eyes, then to the mouth whose grin no longer hid behind flesh.

The agony bit deep, but it was clean. Blameless love bled up from me.

I had decided to live.

I felt no certainty as I donned clothes rough and strange to the touch of newgrown skin. I had none of the selfless zeal of the soldier.

[lean garden]

Oh hey! I just found a kim text that confirms that 1999 is in the operator's timeline

[main crane]

Can we see? :3

[graceful swan]

Operators past?

[restive river]

Technically it should be the same? but aight sure :p

[main crane]

Oh wait. I've encountered that

[strange turtle]

(The part):

But a glass splinter of stubbornness still stuck in me. And so, I persisted. The correct combination of creatures would work.

I realised my error as I sweated by visionary nestawood cinders, beside Loid who curled pale and sick from chewing too much of the root. The catalyst was uniqueness. That attribute was what caught the interest of the bland and undifferentiated Void.

[restive river]

Since they were the same person at one point

[restive river]

Yup! :D
high old man yaoi brain blast

[main crane]

A Tenno can't die from harm or something. But I think they can die of old age, given how Rell transferred his consciousness to his Warframe, Harrow.

[lean garden]

not exactly, point of origin isnt exactly the same

[main crane]

Wait... I guess I answered that wrong

[lean garden]

its like uuuuuuuuuuuuuh, Romulans and Vulcans

[restive river]

Interesting

So rather than the one line that splits they’re two different lines :?

[lean garden]

No its the one line that splits into two, but then the main artefact of one of the line splices itself back into the other

[tall echo]

Well, it's still not exactly known if tenno can die from harm or not

[graceful swan]

See if there’s one confirming its actually our past to keep a certain person happy

[spice spade]

in Whispers in the Wall, it's implied Wally is "confined to the Strands of Khra" without their missing digit.
and Loid says the Strands of Khra are conceptually embodied timelines.

[lean garden]

And yet 1999 is still our past

[spice spade]

I'm not talking about that anymore.

so, if Wally gets their finger back.
What does that mean.

[tall echo]

Unlimited powa

[stiff wolf]

can somebody explain the point of the new years nuke

[restive river]

oh ok

[tall echo]

Should've paid more attention man

[lean garden]

severe motivation for the drifter to change things

[restive river]

Poorly done but like this? @lean garden wanna make sure I’m understanding this right

[spice spade]

apparently we can somehow cut the strands of Khra, and slow down Wally.
we did it in the Whispers in the Wall quest.

[lean garden]

something of the like, but I dont know how to have an accurate visual representation of a few artefacts only splicing back

instead of the whole shebang

[restive river]

I’m imaging the line is specifically the Tenno’s timeline
It splits into two being Operator and Drifter then Drifter merges back into Operator’s, yes?

[tall echo]

We can cut down the things trying to hold the strands in place so he can travel along them

[spice spade]

I'm pretty sure Wally has access to all possible timelines, he just needs the Murmur to congregate for him to enter that specific one.

[restive river]

This
This is exactly what we do with the boss

[spice spade]

with us beating the Fragmented Tide, that strand was cut.

I can't remember, were there Murmur in The Hex quest?

[restive river]

He’s specifically confined to strands of khra, needing his murmur to hold them in place so he may travel

[restive river]

Yes, in the reactor.

[spice spade]

Oh cool, so all Timelines are acessible, just only to HIM

[lean garden]

its the same timeline he's in in the first place

[spice spade]

the strands of Khra were explicitly stated to be
The strands of Khra are merely Void-renderings of the chains of cause and effect. Conceptually embodied timelines, if you will.

timelines, with the s

[restive river]

Idk if conceptually embodied timelines are the same as actual timelines

[lean garden]

yes, but thats kinda separate from 1999

[restive river]

“Void-renderings of the chains of cause and effect”

[spice spade]

doesn't conceptual embodiment just makes things real, but via the void.

[lean garden]

man 3D blender is quite stacked these days

[spice spade]

Duviri is a conceptual embodiment

[restive river]

I mean yeah
But those are still different things

A void entity is still different from an entity that came to be naturally

[spice spade]

Duviri, being a conceptual embodiment
where you can retcon an object in the Origin System from ever being destroyed

[restive river]

I think at the most Wally was slipping his murmur in so he could enter more and more, making it a CE timeline but it can be cut without consequence to the actual timeline like we saw in Whispers

[spice spade]

Wally was already in 1999, he possessed the Major.

[restive river]

I
Know

That’s what I’m talking about with him slipping in :p

He also y’know
Altered the loop cause he was present enough to do so

Also I just realized Russalka’s disappearance is maybe an example of the palimpsest of Spacetime
An event was rewritten (her existing) but the original persisted (things continued just fine and she was remembered)

[spice spade]

apparently the void just contains any and all possibilities.

[restive river]

By itself the void is nothing but ambient energy afaik

It is only through emotions and concepts that things come to be

It can not do anything by itself

[spice spade]

conceptual embodiment basically is: "you do what I want."

[restive river]

Ehhhh

[spice spade]

the void breaks the laws of physics and nature.

[restive river]

The void also kinda just. Turns you mad over time too

[glacial bough]

That's not really CE at all

[restive river]

You’d have to be very resilient to master conceptual embodiment

[graceful swan]

CE isn't you can do what you want it's you can possibly make something happen with enough thought and emotion

[restive river]

Like Drifter conceptually embodied their bedroom in Duviri but that likely wasn’t an entirely conscious decision, it was a mix of intense emotions and concepts in their mind

[spice spade]

Cavalero just makes up upgrades and the Incarnons come to him

[restive river]

You can’t always control how you feel, especially when you’re in the void

[spice spade]

he literally tells you he creates them

[restive river]

I mean
It isn’t wholly by himself

[glacial bough]

He did. He doesn't have control over how they came out

[restive river]

He isn’t CEing new weapons

[graceful swan]

Didn't the Void just steal his idea before he could do it?

[restive river]

He’s contemplating concepts and the void does what it do

[restive river]

Yes, he didn’t have much control outside of thinking about it

[graceful swan]

Void just stole his idea

[restive river]

He’s also specifically not human.

[spice spade]

he's a conceptual emobidment, yea, I know

it's literally CE^2

[restive river]

Yes

[graceful swan]

Aren't Holdfasts ghosts?

[restive river]

To conceptually embody something you need that mix of emotions AND concepts

[spice spade]

they're specifically CE

[restive river]

Essentially yes

[spice spade]

Skittergirl and Yonta are from the same source, but they're different forms

[restive river]

Specifically the conceptually embodied memories of the crew

[graceful swan]

Talking to ghosts is fun

[restive river]

Ye

[graceful swan]

Not as good as talking to animals though

[restive river]

[graceful swan]

Actually were Cavia CE or just animals surviving a bath in the Void

[restive river]

Void bath

[graceful swan]

Albrecht's plan was dumb either way

[restive river]

They took the same journey Albrecht did essentially

Came back speaking in tongues

[normal mountain]

Void tongues

[graceful swan]

Now I wanna try it

[restive river]

Also like
Dying
Cause intense void exposure

[graceful swan]

I wanna learn a new language

[restive river]

I wanna go on void expeditions

I totally won’t need to go in an iso vault after

[graceful swan]

Void journeys with Grandad when?

Other Grandad couldn't take us

[restive river]

Real

[normal mountain]

Going on Void Expeditions would be fun

[graceful swan]

Are we immune to Void exposure

[restive river]

Yes?

Should be anyway

[normal mountain]

We already Void exposed, so maybe

[graceful swan]

Wally just gave us powers and left he didn't explain enough

Didn't even give us the language

[normal mountain]

Maybe we weren't unique enough
Maybe that's why Rell caught his attention

[graceful swan]

Didn't Rell seek him out not the other way round

[normal mountain]

Or maybe we did learn Voidtongue
Didn't Teshin say Margulus erased a lot of our memories?

Maybe we just forgot it

[graceful swan]

I think she blocked the memories not erased

[normal mountain]

With his Autism, I wouldn't be surprised if Rell caught Wally's attention
And Rell just noticed Wally staring

[normal mountain]

Maybe
It's been a while since I did War Within

[spice spade]

wasn't it implied Rell held off Wally in every reality.

[graceful swan]

No

There wasn't Eternalism or anything yet for that to be mentioned

[spice spade]

Retcons are a literary device for this very thing.

[lament stirrup]

There's a difference between a retcon and the audience not having all the information yet.

[wide stag]

As nemesis stated eternalism wasn't a concept during chains of harrow. Also Rell was actively sacrificing himself in order to hold back The Man In The Wall from the rest of the origin system as well as the tenno. The entire point of Chains of Harrow was learning about this and setting Rell free (Along with his Warframe, Harrow), which means that Wally is now free to do as he pleases (Setting up for future quests where he appears and alters things

[spice spade]

man, it seems y'all have a vendetta against me

if I said Konzu's favorite snack might be Jellybeans, I'll get an 1000 page dissertation saying I'm wrong

[graceful swan]

Nah its definitely fish

He loves going on about fish

[blissful merlin]

He’s obsessed with all the fish.

[spice spade]

brb gonna go ahead and just conceptual embody a reality where I no longer exist.

[graceful swan]

Ok

[spice spade]

and retcon every instance, history, and trace of me from existence.

[graceful swan]

If you want that delete every message and leave the server then rejoin

[wide stag]

Konzus favorite snack is fish actually

[restive river]

Where was that implied?

[graceful swan]

It wasn't

[restive river]

Exactly my point :p

[graceful swan]

We didn't have Eternalism yet to have it implied

[restive river]

Even after the fact I don’t recall that ever being implied in any capacity

Like yes retcons exist
But to suggest as such you need to supply evidence that such a retcon even took place

[graceful swan]

Most of the quest was hunt this hunt that fight this there wasn't room for this happened in every reality

[restive river]

Which, if it was implied after the fact or the quest was updated to imply it I’m not even sure if that’d be a retcon?
Just providing additional context that we didn’t have, but I may be mistaken on that front

[graceful swan]

I replayed it a few days ago nothing in it was changed dialogue wise

Only quest changes would be bug fixes

The only changed quests dialogue-wise was DE saying Infestaion predates Orokin in one of the Infested quests

[lament stirrup]

Heaven forbid people disagree with you in the channel where people disagree with each other.

[graceful swan]

Opinions banned from Warframe confirmed

[wide stag]

Haha no one can have a different opinion it seems. I had a discussion how the skins don't fit the lore but someone kept wanting to push a spider skin for koumei but failed to explain how it would fit into the lore of koumei as she's the puppet master frame

Only explanation was it has threads which reminds me of spiders. Ofc this statement was from someone who doesn't pay attention to lore at all

[frigid path]

I’m gonna put ordis in a nechramech

[brittle siren]

Come to think of it, it's funny that the void just give the Drifter the power to loop time and OP abilities with no setback (beside years of traumatized event in Zariman and Duviri).

It's like mocking Wally and said "here is my adopted PTSD child, go fight it Wally"

[north ferry]

Why not? They rule it enough to manifest an entire kingdom

[brittle siren]

What

[north ferry]

Actually, thinking about it, perhaps it's the case the void didn't 'just give it to them' they conceptually embodied it themselves when they created Thrax.

[restive river]

The void didn’t give it to them, Wally did
Or that’s the case with Operator at least
It seems Operator shared their piece of Wally with Drifter when they saved them?

As for the Drifter’s timeloop abilities they didn’t have any abilities during the events of the Duviri Paradox and timelooped via the throne, Duviri largely just reacting to their emotions as they had regained them. They specifically relinquished control as well to timeloop and save Teshin.
I do think it makes sense they know how to timeloop once under enough emotional and physical stress thanks to that experience, though it also helps they were in a loop as is during 1999.

It’s also plausible they could only take back control of the loop from Wally because of the piece they have inside them

[lament stirrup]

The Drifter only has Tenno powers in the origin system and Undercroft, which suggests to me that they're "borrowing" the Operators powers.

[stiff fable]

The Operator seems to have given the Drifter void powers

Something similar happens with the Holdfasts during Angels, where they're able to take from the Operator instead of Wally when the song calls them to the Reliquary

Meanwhile the time loop is a side effect of the Drifter creating Duviri

Duviri loops, and the king of Duviri controls the loops. Thus the Drifter can loop as king of Duviri.

[brittle siren]

Still in the end, the Power Source of the Drifter is from the void, not by shaking hand with Wally. While OP obviously borrow from Wally, Drifter clearly didn't

[restive river]

Drifter’s borrowing from Operator and that piece is still a piece of Wally :p

[brittle siren]

But the looping power isn't though

Also I think that Drifter only connect with the OP not actually borrow from OP though. The only thing Drifter gain from OP is the skill to use void power. I may be wrong about this though

[restive river]

I believe that’s from experience with loops as they looped during the Duviri Paradox without any powers.

[restive river]

Drifter didn’t gain powers from Wally, they didn’t have any until the New War

[brittle siren]

Drifter does have power, he just unable to use it until he "angry" enough

Sorry "they"

[restive river]

They don’t?

Duviri is reacting to their emotions because it’s a product of the void
Conceptual embodiment.

It’s the same way Kullervo’s Hold exists
Strong emotions and concepts interacting with the void cause things to be created or happen

That’s the basically what happens with Thrax and his emotions too
And arguably the Courtiers
Though those also just happen as it’s a part of their concept

[brittle siren]

I mean Drifter has control over Duviri

Teshin: "You did it. You took control."

Drifter: "I always had it. Thrax didn't make this place—"

[restive river]

Yes, through conceptual embodiment

[brittle siren]

I assumed that the loop power is just him unconsciously activated when he going to die too

[restive river]

They also relinquished control of Duviri to save Teshin.

[lament stirrup]

The Drifter seemed pretty concious about slamming their fist on the ground.

[silk atlas]

He doesn't because literally the exact next line is:
Teshin: "-you did. But... you reset it. You gave it all back to him. Why?"

[brittle siren]

I will talk this later, I will do the test

[brittle siren]

Well he said he give it back, but probably it still in him anyway

[restive river]

Exactly why I think it’s something they learned from Duviri

They’re capable of resetting a loop because they have the experience of doing so in a conceptually embodied land

[silk atlas]

Bro got that tantrum reflex.

[brittle siren]

Uno reverse

[restive river]

In theory anyone can loop and control Duviri if they sit on the throne

[lament stirrup]

Given that Albrecht has been to Duviri and flat out told Thrax it would have a part to play in the coming war, I have to wonder how much of the 1999 loop was planned in advance.

[restive river]

I feel like most of it was Albrecht’s plan
For us to arrive with our abilities and to care for the Hex, learning about love

[sly ibex]

The looping power is the Drifter's, right? Thrax can do it because of being embodied to.

[restive river]

The Kalymos Sequence completes when we save the Hex

[restive river]

In Duviri it seems anyone can do it
Outside of that they seem capable but I do believe that is because of what they learned in Duviri, how to reset loop.

Like if anyone got on that throne and slammed their fist I do think they’d take reset the day too

It’s just Drifter is the only person who would ever have been capable of even gaining the throne

[lament stirrup]

I feel like the throne was just symbolic.

[restive river]

Possible

Either way I think the ability to reset a loop comes from that experience and is not just a given ability

Like it’s plausible that because the Drifter knows how to reset a loop they can tap into the piece of Wally they have to conceptually embody the reset themselves in 1999

We also don’t know how Albrecht looped 1999 which probably doesn’t help :p

[blissful merlin]

So he shook hands with Wally and nothing happened? Or they did actually gain powers and just were never found or rescued…

[sly ibex]

I still find myself hoping Albrecht dies by the end of all this. If the Man in the Wall is how he is due to Albrecht's initial journey into the Void, it means that twisted idea of using and throwing away people, the lack of understanding what love is, is something ingrained in Albrecht. Honestly, given how he abandoned his own daughter, son-in-law, GRANDCHILDREN, all before he did what he did to the Cavia and left Loid (though Loid at least knew why), I don't see how he has the audacity to try to lecture The Man in the Wall on love. He is sick, twisted, and has narcissism of a level that even Ballas would be ashamed of

[restive river]

I believe they shook hands and the other kids got powers and were saved but Drifter was not

[sly ibex]

Drifter created the 1999 loop, no? At least, that was my understanding.

[restive river]

No, the loop already existed and Wally altered it.

[lament stirrup]

The Drifter expanded the 1999 loop from new years to the entire year.

[restive river]

Same tbh, I hope we bring the Cavia and the Hex with us to kick that old man down

Aww my gif didnt post ):

Was gonna post that gif from jojo of them kicking that guy lmao

[sly ibex]

[restive river]

Anyway we need a scene where Tagfer head butts Albrecht in the crotch

It’s arguably more so because of Albrecht that Minn died than Fib

Especially considering their situation

[lament stirrup]

Honestly I kind of love how Albrechts written. It is a deeply fascinating spin on the "power of love" trope to have a character consciously weaponize it.

[sly ibex]

He doesn't understand it, is my issue. He had the gall to preach to The Man in the Wall about love, but his understanding of it is rooted in everything and everyone around him revolving around him. Narcissism is not love, and his narcissism seems possibly more insidious than Ballas's to me.

[lament stirrup]

To be fair, he did conciously protect Loid by leaving him in the future.