lore-discussion

[tribal matrix]

I see thankyou!!

[graceful swan]

Also, make sure you get Duviri done if you haven't already so you can do 1999

[tribal matrix]

So we have more wally content? im excited

[tribal matrix]

Duviri quest is done

[graceful swan]

Yeah now you get the Hex quest

Which is 1999

[tribal matrix]

I see!

[graceful swan]

Btw 1999 will be a 2 part thing

You have to rank up with the syndicate to unlock the ending

[tribal matrix]

Also sorry for too many questions, my mailbox was full of these mails

does that mean, they removed somethig from my stash? any major change?

[graceful swan]

They reworked 2 frames

[tribal matrix]

I see!

Thankyou!

[stiff fable]

Late but the explanation is that the Orokin sent Albrecht a bunch of archon bits during the Old War for him to experiment on. We have to remember that Erra created Caliban during the Old War, and we still don't entirely know what an "archon" is and why there are "shards" of them floating around...

[white venture]

Not me over here dragging my linguistics friend kicking and screaming to help me see if there's anything to the Voidtongue that matches my suspicions

[old dome]

i feel like we need to wait a little more & see if any other words pop up that arent mara lohk & xata fass etc...

before you make a whole dictionary (which i'd love to read if youre done w it!)

[white venture]

It looks like it's got Indo-European influence which is what got me thinking a lot

PIE means Proto-Indo-European. The mother tongue of Indo European languages. From English to Sanskrit

From what I could gather, "KU NOMA ELU RA KAH, MARA LOHK?" might be like "Who is it that gave/alotted power to you, devil of the expanse" (void devil/demon/evil thing)

[white venture]

Tryingmybestnottoramble but yeah, wouldn't really shock me if Voidtongue is based on a ancient language like Sanskrit or it's ancestor. Because it's been done before in a game I've played. Far Cry Primals language is based on PIE (and Proto Hittite I think for one civilizations case)

Also a ramble I had last night with myself is that the Voidtongue could also be understood as runes (in the divinatory way). Not just as letters but letters with a name and meaning that with context or how they are positioned relative to other runes can have different meanings. Also the definitions Albrecht gave the Voidtongue glyphs screamed RUNE POEM to me. Like you got "Khra, Time: to cosmic forms from tangent planes, we end as we began" and you got rune poems going "Hægl, Hail is the whitest of grain, it is whirled from the vault of heaven and is tossed about by gusts of wind"

Guess, as an example. The rune Þorn/Thorn has a poem that says basically like "the thorn is exceedingly sharp, it is a bane to all that sit among them" and Feoh/Wealth "is a comfort to every man, yet must all give it freely (charity)". Feoh sounds positive on it's own yes. Could mean you get money. But have Þorn next to it you can get a different meaning. "You may find money, but there will be a problem" or perhaps "something that looks useful may be a hidden danger. Like picking a rose and being stabbed by thorns"

[tall echo]

It's assumed by many that mara doesn't mean devil, as only ballas ever used that to refer to us, and it'd be weird for this great godlike thing to see us as the same as ballas did

[graceful swan]

Albrecht the guy who most likely created him sees himself as a demon so I dunno

[tall echo]

Well we aren't albrecht, are we?

And albrecht only saw himself as a demon long after the encounter

[graceful swan]

Long after maybe but Wally and human things changing him does happen

[round hill]

MARA LOHK roughly translates to void child so there are many ways that can be received

[white venture]

Mara can also mean like a imp. Or if you go a little more recent like Old English it can mean a spirit that causes (usually bad) dreams

(though older sense it can also mean something that can disappear)

[white venture]

I'm not afraid to say though I could be absolutely wrong about it all and my brains doing the usual human thing of "finding patterns when there's really none". And if there are patterns, it's likely not P.I.E. but Sanskrit that's been rearranged and I just went too far back in language. I really just like theorizing. Thinking. It's fun to get that stimulation. Especially when it's a hobby or fixation

[sudden cave]

so i just played the good ending of the hex quest

after which arthur sends you a space email that basically says "good thing we fixed it but we gotta stay in the time loop for reasons"

are there any actual reasons or is the reason "because then you can keep playing the game"?

[tall echo]

To keep the fixed loop going long enough for it to become part of the timeline iirc

[lusty drift]

ah ok

[sudden cave]

sure, i'll buy that, thanks

[mortal ermine]

why do most of the warframes have a little horn lol

[white venture]

To sniff for Alad V's cheese in his maze potential lore related reason though it might just be a characteristic growth trait of the helminth strain is what I can imagine because most Warframes seem to grow appendages on the head like crests. Outside of lore? It just looks cool 😎

Guess a synonymous trait would be Halo's Flood infected bipeds almost always having a growth from a single arm like claws

[tall echo]

1. Coincidence
2. Most? I can only think of like 3 at most

[visual ermine]

A lot of them are probably to mimic helm armor embellishments

[mortal ermine]

ty :D

[hushed parcel]

who was a not bad Orokin?

[silk atlas]

Good question.

[lean garden]

the functional word here is "so"

which in essence would be most of the entrati family sans albrecht

[glacial bough]

The best we know of are the Entrati's and they were still a bunch of uncaring monsters to each other and deserving of the Collapse

[old dome]

imo less monsters & more just. your regular toxic family dynamic (that gets better... or at least son & daughter do.)

albrecht is a monster for recreating warframes tho.

hes the only exception. the rest of the entrati are just fed up w each other & became toxic.

[proper barn]

The family?

[proper barn]

They all do.

Father actually stops hating his wife and says sorry for saying it.

[river tangle]

suda?

[proper barn]

not a orokin.

A archimedian.

all these are classes of people. Archimedians are sceinects that have to report to the orokin once a year and tell them what they are working on and if the orokin don't like it they kill them.

[quartz sky]

I low key think they're using 1999 to retcon the current state of earth to make a new cetus

[ancient gulch]

thats actually a p cool thought tbh

[quartz sky]

Cetus had needed revamped for a while imo

[proper barn]

No?

Also not what a retcon means.

[quartz sky]

Colloquially I think it expresses what I came to discord at 2:30am to say

[proper barn]

Sure.

[peak ether]

Tbh we don’t even know much about them individually other than their respective roles on Deimos, for all we know they could’ve been just as bad as the other orokin. The bare minimum horrible act they have participated in would be the Continuity ceremony

[old dome]

...i keep forgetting they probably did participate in those bc of how isolated they are from everything...

[peak ether]

I’m still sus of Dagath (grandma) because ain’t no way she’s innocent she remembers a lot more than the rest of the family apart from albrecht

[humble sierra]

She also was the one to endanger the Heart just so the family would talk to each other again

[proper barn]

I mean it worked.

[old dome]

yeah... just at the cost of. whatever the heart actually does on deimos...

[tall echo]

Except not because we fixed it

[tribal matrix]

I completed hex quest and didnt understand crap

we kill everyone and explode the thing so we stop wally?what?

[lean garden]

The mission aint over yet

[tribal matrix]

elaborate please. More quests you mean?

[lean garden]

Reach r3 with the hex

And be liked by all of them

And then the true finale happens

[tribal matrix]

Ohhhh Okaay!! Thanks man

will try

[lean garden]

The kalymos squence is not yet complete, get crackin

[woven trench]

What the hell are the necramechs?

Mummy robots?

[glacial bough]

Just robots

[quartz sky]

I think they look like that because things have to be slightly humanoid for transference (maybe?) but they have strange taste

[sage moat]

things don't have to be slightly humanoid for transference

the drifter transfers into a giant sky worm and a smaller but still pretty big water worm

[raw stone]

To be fair, most examples have been humanoid

[sage moat]

the operator also transfers into the water worm but it was a sand worm at the time

and also that was a dream

god warframe lore is fantastic

[sage moat]

see my theory is that it needs to have a biological component, so the mummies are literal cadavers in the necramechs doing that job

[rotund tinsel]

You as the operator canonically already know how Warframes are made

That's what I meant

Sorta

[sage moat]

do you?

[rotund tinsel]

I want a friend like Otak

I remember that little fella

[sage moat]

operators think they are warframes until they wake up from the second dream. i think they're just as clueless as the player is upon first waking up

[rotund tinsel]

Trying to shove that into my lore section of my brain

[rotund tinsel]

I always thought that operator knows that they are human

In the first few moments of awakening obviously

[lean garden]

Not necessarily, they would only really really know after The Sacrifice

[rotund tinsel]

My entire thought process was that tenno would know that Warframes were human,who in their right mind would transfer their mind into something they don't know,which was basic logic to me

[lean garden]

Because they would only know that the warframe is a proxy golem for them to use

[rotund tinsel]

I need to replay the story quests so bad

[lean garden]

Its absolutely not that they didnt know what a warframe was at all, its just that they just didnt know the right thing

[rotund tinsel]

Fair enough,the closet person they had as a parental figure was Margulis and Lotus right?

I am not counting Ballas

[sage moat]

the idea with the second dream is that lotus is hiding the fact that tenno are children and not the warframes themselves after somehow erasing all that knowledge from the orokin era. That's why your operator says "I thought i was...?" after character customization
This is reinforced when we see characters like Alad V refer to warframes as tenno, as if they think they're the same thing
Afterwards, exactly what warframes are stayed up for debate until the sacrifice. though... there were hints...
I think it's possible to say that thee operator's memories slowly came back and they learned what warframes were pre-sacrifice, but narratively i just think thats less satisfying

sorry for the paragraph

[rotund tinsel]

When I first played I always thought Warframes were a suit of armour until I saw dagath

[sage moat]

thats fair dagath does spoil the illusion a bit

[rotund tinsel]

Cause if it they were you'd obviously see a human head

I like the little details that you are the golden boy of the tenno

Cause you made the deal with wally
And no tenno was seen when you die in new war

Cause if all frames have their own tenno obviously there would be other tenno but you

But nora says the tenno are missing during new war

I'm gonna replay sacrifice

I love the quest

[woven coyote]

@spice spade the tenno did not create the man in the wall in the old war

[spice spade]

The tenno did, indirectly

[woven coyote]

They didnt

Not at all
If anyone created wally it was albrecht

[spice spade]

Their useage of their powers in the old war caused a paradoxical phenomenon that created the man in the wall

[quartz sky]

Coming into the game with no info like I did I had no idea

[woven coyote]

Nothing in the game even suggests that

[spice spade]

The man in the wall, after a long time, found the tenno in the Zarimen and offered them his gift

This creates a paradox which causes the tenno and the Man in the Wall to be interlocked in fate

[dawn citrus]

Or just got his attention

[woven coyote]

Where are you even getting that from?

[quartz sky]

The flashbacks I thought

[spice spade]

The tenno will always create the Man in the Wall from their power useage, and the Man in the Wall will always gift them the powers

[woven coyote]

......

[spice spade]

Even then, how would they have the powers at the time if they wasn't gifted it yet?

Time lapse

Something the void is good at doing

[graceful swan]

You can’t create a an eldritch entity that already existed

[quartz sky]

See? Lovecraftian

Love this stuff

[dawn citrus]

Wally didn’t gift the Tenno powers he got them off the Zariman, void exposure gave them powers

[quartz sky]

So what was the actual gift?

[spice spade]

Yes, but Zarimen happened long after Old War tho

[graceful swan]

No it didn’t

[woven coyote]

Waaaaaaay before

[dawn citrus]

Long before actually

[spice spade]

No, cause if that was so then Drifter would've had the powers, but nah, Lotus had to gift him the power instead

[graceful swan]

The Sentients were only made because the Zariman disappeared

[woven coyote]

Drifter is an alternate timeline

[dawn citrus]

The Drifter does have powers tho

[spice spade]

Where he was not gifted by wally cause he refused

[spice spade]

Now he does, but he didn't before

[graceful swan]

He didn’t refuse

[spice spade]

Until we went to the Zarimen to see him

[woven coyote]

Also drifter received tenno powers from operator not lotus

[manic horizon]

Isn't there a 9hr lore video

[quartz sky]

Just read the wiki

[woven coyote]

You got the whole timeline of the game wrong

[spice spade]

Ah, well that part was hazy for me

[quartz sky]

It explains it well

[woven coyote]

It doesnt

[graceful swan]

Then don’t start making random headcanon that isn’t backed up by things

[spice spade]

Well the main point of that was he wasn't gifted by wally

[woven coyote]

Wiki has too many self inserts and theories

[manic horizon]

https://youtu.be/5IWz8Bx4uvU?si=Pf2Yq-7ywSfjXzaO

[spice spade]

Not explaining who had gifted him

[woven coyote]

Isnt that the video that was full of innacuracies?

[manic horizon]

Not sure if it's entirely accurate

[manic horizon]

I've got no clue but it's older

[quartz sky]

But it does lay out the timeline

[manic horizon]

2021

Honestly I gave up warframe lore before new war

[woven coyote]

Anyway the zariman accident splits into operator and drifter

The original event the zariman accident is before the old war

[dawn citrus]

The Tenno were never “gifted” power, their condition is a result of the same void exposure that turned their parents into feral cannibals.

[graceful swan]

And Operator didn’t make Wally in both

[quartz sky]

If that's the case what did we shake on is the question

[woven coyote]

Albrecht had already encountered wally and created void tech off of his fingers by then

[dawn citrus]

Escape

Being able to leave

[graceful swan]

The Zariman wouldn’t even exist if Albrecht didn’t cut the fingers

[manic horizon]

Did we escape with rell or is rell dead

[woven coyote]

After all cant have zariman without void tech
Cant have void tech without fingers
Cant have fingers without albrecht's encounter with wally

[woven coyote]

Dead

[graceful swan]

Both

[dawn citrus]

Rell was very active in the Origin system so he escaped with us

[quartz sky]

By harnessing the void. Which if we were able to do without him, we could have done eventually reguardless

[dawn citrus]

But eternalism so… both lol

[manic horizon]

I was reading the comics and it shows more about what happened with the parents on zariman

[graceful swan]

It’s not Eternalism

[quartz sky]

Please share

[dawn citrus]

While hiding in dark rooms terrified of being eaten by our parents yeh… totally

[graceful swan]

Rell was rescued and died of old age

[woven coyote]

Its in the warframe site

[quartz sky]

Slay

[woven coyote]

They have a comics section now

[quartz sky]

So is the indifferences gift actual indifference?

The ability to kill your own parents and block it out

[dawn citrus]

Also… Wally tricking us into thinking we need his help to do something we could do ourselves if we weren’t terrified children sounds pretty on brand

[manic horizon]

https://www.warframe.com/media/comics/rell

[quartz sky]

That's what I'm saying

[manic horizon]

@quartz sky

[quartz sky]

Slay ty

My suggestion is that the indifference, not the void, made the parents want to kill their own children, and the indifference also gave the children the ability to kill their own parents

[sage moat]

this is "confirmed" in the KiM chats

i say "confirmed" because the drifter might just be stupid, unreliable narrator and allat

[dawn citrus]

What Drifter say?

[quartz sky]

THAT is at least confirmed lol

I get a mind flayer vibe from the indifference ngl

[sage moat]

something like "The indifference decided to do a little 'experiment'", basically it boils down to the drifter saying that the indifference made the parents go insane itself rather than it simply being void exposure

[sage moat]

stragner things mind flayer or dnd mindflayer

[quartz sky]

Obviously dnd

[dawn citrus]

Yeh Drifter may be wrong here but I’m gunna go with it thanks

[sage moat]

i dont quite follow how the indifference is like a mindflayer

[quartz sky]

It's ability to tap into memories, control, manipulate perception of reality, block some things out such as certain emotions or feelings like empathy or familiar connections. The almost parasitic nature of its cause of the pain and offering escape by the same thing

Continually weaponising our own memories

[sage moat]

yknow fair but i never knew mindflayers had those abilities. despite loving ttrpgs ive never actually played dnd

[dawn citrus]

But then… why would the indifference create a creature capable of fighting it?? Why make the parents insane but empower the Tenno? Why then allow them to leave and grow powerful??

[quartz sky]

Even the DND version goes back to lovecraftian horror which is why I keep referencing it

[dawn citrus]

Legit curious not thing to shoot a confirmed theory

[quartz sky]

I don't think they created our ability to fight it, I think that's a lie

[sage moat]

the experiment was to see if it could get children to kill their own parents

so it gave the kids a reason to kill their parents and the ability to do so

or if the drifter is wrong, the parents went insane from void exposure and wally just capitalized on that to make his deal

[quartz sky]

Ability not the void harnessing but the actual emotional ability perhaps

[dawn citrus]

I lean toward this personally

[sage moat]

i disagree because we know some kids didn't get the emotional ability to kill their parents, locking their parents up so they could starve instead

[dawn citrus]

Idk the rest of the chat transcript but maybe that’s what the Drifter meant. Indifference doesn’t cause the problem just capitalizes on it

[quartz sky]

Or they turned him down

[sage moat]

actually only one deal was made: ours

[woven coyote]

We dont know its endgame
We dont even know the full terms of our own deal

[quartz sky]

That's the tea I'm so excited

[sage moat]

it wasn't that wally approached every kid on the zariman and asked, wally approached us. We made the deal. We're in debt to him now. The other tenno are probably not being pestered by him constantly

[quartz sky]

As far as our own perception. Like you said, not the most reliable narrator

We might not have been the first choice

[woven coyote]

Was a big ship after all

[quartz sky]

He could have even made a deal with the parents to give us control of the void faster, and they didn't realize it means it took control and made them try to kill us

[dawn citrus]

Maybe Rell was approached and he refused

I have no evidence that would just be cool

[quartz sky]

The "surviving" crew of the zariman always seem so off in conversation sometimes. They could have also refused but feel guilty for considering it or having the knowledge of the deal. They might be hiding that info because they still see us as a kid

They don't want us to know our own parents made the deal

And given it's an MMO game, I think the 4th wall implication is that multiple operators made the deal. Like you said, it's a big ship

[woven coyote]

The holdfasts are just memories and memories are often times fuzzy

[quartz sky]

Unreliable, perhaps blocking things out they don't want to remember

[woven coyote]

Holdfasts arent dead people revived
They are memories of dead people given life

[quartz sky]

That seems almost too mystic and romantic to me

I never really took that as truth

Regardless I'm excited to see where things are going

Especially post 1999 and the time travel implications

[tall echo]

But it is factually true. They are memories rebuilt by the void into a person.

[lean garden]

Not necessarily, this is a chosen one trope thats common in media

Destiny does it as well, everyone and no one but one is the chosen one

[quartz sky]

True

[woven coyote]

There is no grounds for discussion as the holdfasts themselves tell us that
Cant remember if it was yonta or quinn

[quartz sky]

I still think they see the operator as a kid and are bending the truth slightly

[graceful swan]

They aren’t bending the truth

They have no reason to do so either

Even in the missions they aren’t acting like we are kids by skipping details

"It's funny how we're both Void constructs, sort of. Difference being that I'm dead. Not your fault."

[uneven burrow]

any idea what is considered dishonorable fighting for the tenno cause i want to give it a shot?

[normal mountain]

Team up with Sentients
wait a sec, Caliban does that. Huh

[uneven burrow]

also from the kid i learned that eating people with grendel and inaros (cannibalism), using saryn's abilities (biological warfare), carpet bombing (any explosive weapon used from an archwing), using radiation and comiting other countless warcrimes means fighting with honor

[proper barn]

we also did that in the new war.

[graceful swan]

We literally control walking Warcrimes you really think anybody in the system cares about Honour or Dishonour?

[proper barn]

Teshin

teshin is the one that says honor and everything.

[uneven burrow]

also the kid says so

[graceful swan]

Teshin isn’t in the system anymore

[tall echo]

Allying with grineer or corpus to fight against the tenno.

[uneven burrow]

this sound awesome too bad the game wont let me test my nuke builds on mr0 tenno

[tall echo]

There is the dojo pvp but that's boring

[uneven burrow]

• i am not allied with corpus or grineer when doing it

[shell mist]

Don't forget Conclave

[uneven burrow]

no one plays it anymore

it was fun using a hydroid armed with a simulor in conclave

[shell mist]

Speak for yourself. I gotta get those Conclave hours in

[uneven burrow]

than try using hydroid and simulor, it does wonders to the wellbeing of everyone else

ignis works too but its not as fun

[tall echo]

There should be pvp invasions with limited weapon options for balance

Better than conclave, but still balanced

[sly pagoda]

Most people would never do them

[tall echo]

Just like normal invasions

[sage moat]

my bad i thought this was general

[sage moat]

just a thought: I like to imagine that a grineer getting a full name is like a high honor. We know most grunts are just given codes based on what tube they came out of, but high ranking grineer get names --- Kahl-175 (i think thats his code) vs Vay Hek, the liches, etc.

Based on this, its possible to imagine that steel meridian defectors give themselves names as acts of defiance. Cressa Tal mainly

[feral bolt]

1.How did the drifter and Entrati get to 1999?

2.did the drifter go to 1999 to find Entrati so that he can help with Wally trying to break into the origin system?

3. Why did Entrati choose to go to 1999 in the first place? I know he got trapped there by Wally but what was he even doing there?

[graceful swan]

You see how Albrecht got to 1999 in Whispers in the Walls

You see how Drifter got to 1999 in 1999

[dire mountain]

The drifter got to 1999 because Loid exploited something with the Vessels and their connection to the Hex. Ultimately leading to an excalibur being spit out from a helminth mouth with the drifter piloting

[graceful swan]

Shush Wally you’re weak

How do you feel about the fact you no longer can bother me due to moving into the Backroom?

No you don’t

You’re not even Man in the Wall anymore smh

[feral bolt]

I’m still confused tbh.

So the vessel had a connection to the hex or Arthur/excal?

so if drifter transferred into the vessel how did he control something from the past ? Did drifter jump from a “memory” into the past reality of 1999?

[graceful swan]

I’ll let you in the Backroom if you give her a railing so she doesn’t fall off the ledge

[dire mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/chef-skinner-gif-21782214

[graceful swan]

Because they can use transference on the frames that have the connection which the quest showed you in the ending 6 times

[humble sierra]

He calculated something and it led him to 1999

You can see a bunch of calculations scrawled in a room somewhere in the Labs, I think the Netracell, and it ends with a big “=1999”

[inner halo]

The vessels are made with DNA of from the Hex, which is why they are linked

[hushed parcel]

thank you this answers one of my biggest questions

[white venture]

I think Albrecht said he went to 1999 because it was the "Plague Year". Likely the ancient "Great Plague" that got mentioned in the Mire's description. He said seeing the technocyte gave him "fresh visions" for his vessels. Guessing to combine his strains with the technocyte, especially seeing the reaction it had with the Helminth seeming more tame and slower to lose humanity (if it happens, even he is not sure)

[graceful swan]

He went to 1999 because Wally couldn’t easily follow it just happened to also be the Plague Year

[quartz sky]

I still think he's trying to change the future (current) population of humanity to better equip himself and his comrades against the indifference

So if Albrecht figured out that transference works over time, maybe he intends to go back (through his own body) earlier than 1999 but because of the loop being unresolved he got stuck

Or is 1999 pre orokin era

I'm still piecing it together

Jk ignore all that I'm reading more of the stuff

[white venture]

My own theorized series of events to just stick it in here I guess since it's sorta relevant to your idea. Going a Dark Sector route. Whatever it is that preceded our current infested, and the ancestor of Techrot, ended up in the ocean (possibly extraterrestrial, or it's been there. Don't know if it was said exactly). Someone discovers the proto-infested and decides to use it for idk, bio/electronic warfare. It escapes, has a extreme outbreak that probably resulted in some kind of nuclear warfare (it's never specified that we are at war with ourselves during the ancient radiation wars). It eventually ends after the destruction of the "arctic hive cluster". Humanity is in complete shambles and it allows the rise of a caste that results in the orokin eventually

I genuinely feel that Koumei's vision was the resurrection of that ancient infestation that still resided in the ocean like Dark Sectors Technocyte

[quartz sky]

And a major class divide that caused the uprisings

Yoo I forgot about her visions you're totally right

I always thought orokin cells look like salt water fish scales tbh

If this means we have to do more water missions in our future ughh

[white venture]

It's perfect for the Orokin to rise. Because I'm certain the experiments on the technocyte (like DNA modification) is likely what helped jump start the advanced genetic modification to the scale we now have in modern/future Warframe. And clearly over the millennia the Orokin kept messing with the infestation. For both warfare, but also making living structures (insert Unum here), and then ultimately helminth strain. Ballas even makes it sound like the current infestation is an ancient plaything they kept manipulating

[quartz sky]

They're so weird with their experiments

Indifference for the people dying

[white venture]

Growing a structure is pretty genius tbh. Just make the skeleton basically, let a weird modified alien thing take the shape you want it to, seal up the thing with walls. Gets damaged? Bury your dead in it and let it regrow

I should add, as we can see in railjack missions and the Orb Vallis, many Orokin buildings are alive. You can see the same flesh as that of the Unum

[quartz sky]

Until the living structure becomes self aware at least lol

Oh yeah

[white venture]

Orokin loved slaughtering people for petty reasons so I'm sure they had no shortage of "raw materials" shall we say

And with the grineer, I would not be shocked they probably had some clones like livestock to feed it

[quartz sky]

Maybe the indifference is actually the orokins cold and cruel feelings towards the peons they experimented with made alive via the void

[white venture]

The void is probably the strangest thing I've encountered from sci-fi. Probably my favorite thing.

[quartz sky]

The first thing that went into the void was Albrechts own fingers?

[quartz sky]

Same, I grew up on love craft and twilight zone, and I love playing call of cthulu

[quartz sky]

Okay back to this. I checked the wiki and as far as we know he was the first toake actual contact by entering the void

When the operator split, the part of us in the void created a whole world and entity with our strongest emotions

Albrecht also split, but his strongest emotion was apathy towards his test subjects. Centuries of it are engrained due to the class divide and culture of the time

[quartz sky]

Which I think are the stages of grief condensed

Or like 7 deadly sins type deal, greed, pride, etc

But I doubt they'll be that derivative

[white venture]

Albrecht was the first to make contact yea. Initially though it was through external observation. If I remember right he knew it was there and could see it but none of the other Orokin scientists believed him because when they looked for themselves they saw nothingness and began to mock him as though he were insane. It wasn't until the seriglass incident that he proved the void truly did exist

[quartz sky]

So it could have just gotten worse with each pole and prod from apathetic scientists

[white venture]

Wall of Lohk! That's what I'm thinking of

[quartz sky]

Yup

That's what I was reading about on the train

[sage moat]

Not quite. He had proved the void existed, his results just also proved there was nothing there... until the seriglass incident.

[white venture]

It was a portal. Like a window to peer inside. And he saw the light and stars. But after the 1999 update and Kim convos, I now believe that actually wasnt there to begin with

[quartz sky]

I mean physically penetrating the void with their organic bodies

[quartz sky]

Super intriguing

[somber adder]

Does the Hex Finale end the 1999 ||time loop|| or is it still going on?

[tall echo]

Read the mail you get after the finale

[quartz sky]

I'd like to know too

[somber adder]

Forgor I got that, been ages

[quartz sky]

Or rather what will happen next

[white venture]

It's now implied that the Void shows you what you wish to see. From your own mind, it makes it. Albrecht expected to see stars and the cosmos. Space. And that is exactly what he got

[tall echo]

Only the devs know that

[somber adder]

I don’t understand Arthur’s message, what does he mean “keep things right”?

[quartz sky]

Jdhajbchskcn

[tall echo]

Albrecht expected to see nothing, a void

[sage moat]

Time loops
If you're not still there helping, the bad ending will just happen again before it loops

[white venture]

Do I spoiler things in here? I'd imagine before I say the thingy I'm referencing

[tall echo]

I'm guessing the fixed loop has to keep repeating a few times before it becomes part of the timeline

[somber adder]

But we prevented the kaboom, can’t we just continue from there?

[sage moat]

Nope. Still looping

[tall echo]

Anything not unreleased is allowed here

[somber adder]

That’s because we choose to loop it though innit?

[tall echo]

@somber adder

[quartz sky]

I think we kept Albrecht or important people alive that prevented a paradox by our presence

[white venture]

Eleanor tried to reach out to the void. To try to find her other timelines. Her other selves. She thought to herself that there may be a nun version of her, and when she went in, she found one. But the Indifference watched her. And she could feel it trying to grab her

[somber adder]

Man why is the profanity filter in this server so strict

[white venture]

Drifter I think (I might be misremembering) says like it may be the void reflecting what you wish to find

[quartz sky]

What did the parents see then?

[tall echo]

May be
The events after is good evidence that it is not

[somber adder]

The void is the Vast Untime, it being able to transcend timelines doesn’t really surprise me

The Drifter alone is proof the Void actually does transcend time

[tall echo]

Alternate timelines exist and are theoretically accessible. Eleanor accessed an alternate timeline with her mind

[white venture]

Void is wild. Especially with the insinuation that our modern Maya mythology is actually an ancient astronaut scenario with the sentients somehow getting tangled with time (kinda hoping that's what it is because that'd be insane)

[quartz sky]

So maybe transference into different versions of yourself in different timelines is possible, but if you go completely into the other version and don't swap out like drifter and operator do, that entity takes over your old body

[tall echo]

Drifter and operator share a body

Our el could've stayed with nun el, but she chose not to

[quartz sky]

I feel like if they did, we wouldn't have two character creators

[white venture]

Like, Hunhow. Reciting knowledge that technically no longer exists from the Popol Vuh. His name like that of the god Hunapu who had twin children. Like it'd be nuts that the indifference may have actually somehow got the sentients in another timeline. Them talking to ancient man, and they write it down in the Popol Vuh.

Lettie freaked out bad

[quartz sky]

Or like, there's two bodies as in two separate timelines, but they're swapping timelines

[tall echo]

They're seperate void individuals in the same body

[sage moat]

I think it was confirmed somewhere --- maybe with Holdfasts? --- that they share a physical body and that's why they can't coexist

Have you ever seen yugioh

[tall echo]

Quinn talks about it, two void silhouettes. Drifter and operator

[somber adder]

….what

[quartz sky]

I haven't lmao

[tall echo]

Holdfasts is correct

[quartz sky]

So strange that we completely change appearance

Like you can swap gender, body types, tattoos

[tall echo]

Not really

They're not exactly only one body, just two "souls" in one

[limber pulsar]

its a pretty big reach to take “both can be sensed from one” to mean they literally share the same physical body when nothing suggests that

[tall echo]

As seen in the lotus eaters and tnw, they can exist seperately in the void

[sage moat]

https://tenor.com/view/yugioh-yu-gi-oh-yugi-card-games-gif-3101794298911223771

[quartz sky]

That's where I got stuck

[sage moat]

This is what it is

[tall echo]

Which is not what I'm saying

[white venture]

Lettie asks about the sentients. And the drifter says how cryptic they were like hunhows "All is silent and calm, hushed is the whom of the sky". It's a direct line from the ancient Mayan Popol Vuh about the creation of the world from the void in the beginning where nothing existed

[tall echo]

It's complicated void stuff

[white venture]

Lettie freaks out because she recognizes the lines

[quartz sky]

We did get major religious lore

[white venture]

So, chances are, in Warframe the Maya gods were the sentients from one of the future timelines on their way to Tau

(or back)

[sage moat]

Or hunhow is very well read

[white venture]

That's the problem

[somber adder]

No knowledge of Ancient Earth survived

[white venture]

The Orokin wiped out everything from ancient and early earth history when they rose

[sage moat]

No you're right yeah

[somber adder]

Hunhow CAN’T have learned about it naturally

This is pretty insane actually

[quartz sky]

Unnaturally for sure more likely lmao

[white venture]

That's what I'm saying. He must be Hunhapu. And the only reason those lines exist is due to the timeline void things

[tall echo]

It seems even less likely that the sentients got put into the ancient past

[quartz sky]

So what is hunhow actually?

[somber adder]

Hunhow; trans-temporal devourer of worlds, ancient mesoamerican god… and paralyzed grandpa at the bottom of a lake

[limber pulsar]

people refer to things they dont ubderstand through their own cultural lens, that doesnt mean sentients are literally mayans any more than people calling wally a devil means hes the literal christian devil from the bible

[somber adder]

A sentient

[tall echo]

They barely survive a few seconds in the void, jumping there and then to orokin era sol would've destroyed them completely

[somber adder]

Hunhow literally recites Mayan scripture tho

[sage moat]

Coincidence?
I'm not believing in sentient time travel until I see it. Respect to the theory though

[somber adder]

Actually the Void just makes them infertile, they were designed that way in order to strand them once they arrived in Tau

[tall echo]

The void kills them

They only survived thanks to being shielded from most of it by praghasa

[quartz sky]

Where did you infer this?

[somber adder]

Hunhow quite blatantly says it during Natah I’m pretty sure

[tall echo]

And they were brought to tau the long way, not through the void

[white venture]

Nah it wouldn't be the sentients we know in our own time. Okay so this is what my brain is thinking. You cross over the ocean yes. Even in a plane and you don't touch the fabric of the sea. But still, your reflection is casted upon it. Your presence is still felt, recorded. If the void could be seen as the ocean, the sentients going around it instead of through it (which they did go around), they could still be perceived and felt by the void just as the ripples of the boat or the reflection of the plane

[quartz sky]

I f with this heavy

[white venture]

And clearly you don't have to be within the void for the indifference to screw with things

[tall echo]

Except unlike water, the void does not exist in our space. It's the space between realities, it can't be affected from outside

[quartz sky]

So what does it mean to travel along the edge of reality?

A Mayan god, perhaps in our own inner memory, existed mentally so fiercely it was able to be reflected

[tall echo]

In warframe it just means travelling very fast with a chance of creating unimaginable horrors

[quartz sky]

The untime is an interesting name if we take speed and space travel into account

[tall echo]

Which has happened three times. That is three too many

[white venture]

Loid I don't think was inside the void, but the void could still reflect him (or perhaps it was via Albrecht memories)

[tall echo]

That is the main thing about the void, it doesn't really believe in time

[white venture]

I just like thinking about stuff like this nxhdgdgdhv. I like nerding out especially if religion and culture slides in

[tall echo]

Wally draws most of what it uses to interact from the memories of the other person

It has been in albrecht's mind in the first encounter, using his nickname in a possible attempt to calm him

[white venture]

Yee

[quartz sky]

Right, the mind flayer style memory thing and attempt at manipulation

Wally uses the nickname our dad did

[tall echo]

Exactly. It's been in our mind too after CoH

[white venture]

Like I would easily have cast off my idea if it was still a simple character being inspired by Mayan myths. But, now it's like screaming at me as intentional. Especially when other characters are chiming in about it now

[quartz sky]

It makes me think about the cephalons weirdly enough

Or that the void was watching humanity our entire existence

But what caused things to start to manifest?

[tall echo]

Intense emotions in the void create things

[white venture]

There's also the idea that with dimensions, they can also intertwine. Even if it's not detectable. You could be passing through another dimension and you'd have absolutely no idea because you can't see it feel it. But it doesn't necessarily make it any less there

[quartz sky]

Like dark matter theory

[tall echo]

Until that incident with albrecht's void diving bell shattering people likely never had much emotion while entering it

[quartz sky]

Indifference perhaps

[tall echo]

Wally is indifferent about all but two things: albrecht and drifterator

It's nice that DE finally gave a good reason for that name

[proper barn]

not true.

the sentients have a old book of exctint animals.

it's what the beast lords of tau (the sentient half of the archons) where made in the image of.

[white venture]

Ah yeah I get a point there. If it's touching everyone already why wouldn't the void be crowded. Though, I'm curious if it affects time any. Say yes it is indeed touching us. But it's not being put within the void itself, but redistributed. In a way: who says that our own reality, right now, is not the past of another reality. Like ghosts. But we have agency.

[glacial bough]

The Orokin kept certain parts of Earth history around

[somber adder]

The Orokin liked to recreate certain extinct animals

The Mergoo for example existed in 1999 and was recreated by the Orokin

[proper barn]

idk how we ever got here.

[tall echo]

According to eternalism there is no past or future, only now

[proper barn]

is that true?

[somber adder]

That is completely wrong

[proper barn]

i thought was was presentism?

[somber adder]

According to Eternalism the past and future are equally real, no?

[tall echo]

That is how warframe describes it

[somber adder]

No it really isn’t

[white venture]

I wouldn't say animals would have been considered a threat to the Orokin enough for them to consider wiping out that history. I feel they believed the threat was more of culture

[proper barn]

Also the Sentients didn't get to tau

[tall echo]

It is all real and all happening at once, so

[proper barn]

through the void that's the whole point.

[quartz sky]

Eternalism
The view that all things in time exist equally, including past, present, and future things. Eternalists believe that dinosaurs, Roman emperors, and Mars outposts exist. Eternalism is sometimes called the block universe perspective, which imagines the universe as a four-dimensional block of space and time.
Presentism
The view that only present things exist, and that past and future things do not exist. Presentists believe that the past is a memory and the future is a prediction.
Presentists and eternalists agree that present entities exist, and that entities have or will exist. However, presentists deny that you can infer that something exists if it existed in the past or will exist in the future.
Some say that the debate between presentism and eternalism is misguided, and that philosophers of time should instead consider whether things come into or go out of existence.

[white venture]

Ye they didn't go through it

[tall echo]

Try looking up the definition used in warframe

[quartz sky]

As the Wall of Lohk activated, Albrecht witnessed space and time ripple as the wall yawed open. Disoriented, he stumbled in his vessel and shifted its path through the wall. As soon as it grazed the edge of the "door", the bell was sliced in half instantly by the edge of the portal, causing Albrecht to fall sideways directly into the Void, while the sliced bell fell over and shattered.

From the wiki

[tall echo]

That

Is not referring to eternalism at all

[proper barn]

yEAH

scrap is right.

About this qoute.

[tall echo]

I often am

[quartz sky]

Yeah I'm checking it out in wiki rn

Pointed to baro kiteer which I forgot about

[somber adder]

Wasn’t the baro thing that he made a pact with the Indifference?

[tall echo]

Orokin archives still doesn't seem to work properly on mobile...

Use orokin archives for lore research, the wiki sucks

[quartz sky]

Fair

Yeah the void trader combined all versions of himself into 1

I'm guessing he split a lot because he kept entering the void over and over

Besides the practical reasons

[white venture]

This is, kinda reminding me of my high school time shower thoughts

[tall echo]

That's just an in-universe explanation for the platform merge

A very funny one

[quartz sky]

Hey, canon is canon lol

That's what I meant by practical reasons

[white venture]

I called it the trident. But there's a real term for it but I forgot it's name. Basically it's the split in realities that occurs from choices

[quartz sky]

Oh yeah

[tall echo]

That's really just one of the most common forms of multiple timelines

[quartz sky]

Parallel timeline or multiverse theory

Classic trope

[white venture]

You got a dog. It's sitting down in it's bed. In one prong of the trident the dog got up and ate. In the second it stayed asleep, the third it turned in bed. The handle is the initial reality, the prongs are the choices that have their own equal realities that coexist

That's how my brain thought it at the time lol

[quartz sky]

Except make that dog archduke Ferdinand and we got some more intense parallel timelines

[white venture]

And I guess in eternalism "changing the frame" would be focusing on one of those prongs that's coexisting

[quartz sky]

That basically your reality is just a matter of perspective

That the flow of time and events doesn't matter to your current processing if info

[white venture]

And technically doing something would not change the future. It would just make the prongs branch I'd imagine. It would create a new (well, alternative) future, but still would not dictate the initial reality's future

[quartz sky]

Floating chunk of meat doesn't care what day it is

Maybe that's why the infestation is so strong tbh

[somber adder]

Even in our world, time isn’t objective

[quartz sky]

Clock in space experiments

[somber adder]

It does flow differently depending on several factors, so the idea of Eternalism isn’t so outrageous to me

I also don’t see how it’s an “excuse” as some people say

To me it’s just a plot device and a pretty interesting one at that

[white venture]

Ye it's cool I love it. Gives endless possibilities

[quartz sky]

Maybe thats where the Bernstein bears theory falls in lol, stupid hunk of meat changes timelines all the time and doesn't notice because your perception of your environment continues

Like some 1999 references being slightly different than irl 1999 but others direct copies

(but also devs and copyright laws)

[white venture]

Here's essentially the trident thing. This goes with another time thing but it's essentially what I'm trying to illustrate in text. The initial reality, the other realities that get spawned and multiplied based on choice

Holymolyimayapper

[quartz sky]

If that goes infinitely, it's more a large river flowing, or like a tapestry like many use as imagery culturally

Or flip it and that's baro kiteer

Two becoming one is the drifter and operator

Maybe we're unwittingly trying to rejoin the indifference to it's source

Or we'll keep going back until we find some node we can combine

[white venture]

My brain is tired 😭 philosophy of time is crazy and it's also crazy this kind of conversation is happening because of a video game

[quartz sky]

Indifference perhaps is the space between the timeline where the choices don't matter. Indifferent to your actions

Lmaooo I love existentialism and sci Fi

Untime

More like bed time

[white venture]

Indifference itself is complicated

It's almost like trying to understand death. But you can't understand death because you can't perceive it. Some would say death is darkness. But it can't be darkness. Nor can it be light.

[quartz sky]

So perception doesn't matter

Which is very on theme

[white venture]

Essentially it is impossible to perceive what can't be perceived. Because there is no ability to perceive it. It's existential

[humble pawn]

i havent gotten to new war yet but seeing ordis try to be like lotus was sad

[quartz sky]

You're not my real mom, you're barely my real dad

[white venture]

Indifference is neither good nor bad. Jealousy or pride. Living or dead. Love or hate. Indifference can not exist if there is love because it is directly antithetical to being indifferent

Nor can it exist in pure hate

Because to hate something, you must be different to it. You must recognize its existence to be there. You dislike something. That is still something.

[feral cape]

Indifference isn't it's name either that's what albretch called it

[quartz sky]

Maybe indifferent could be interpreted similarly as untime

It has a lot of names

[feral cape]

In and of itself it has no name because it fails to exist fully by warframes standards of ontological presence

It wants to exist it's trying to exist

[limber pulsar]

thats how names work for anyone

[white venture]

It's just referred as the indifference because it's, well, indifferent. So indifferent to existence it makes your mind scream because it can't understand something because it's impossible to try

That's what happened with Eleanor

Made her feel insignificant. Not even like an ant under your heel

[quartz sky]

Yet it was still waiting and observing, or at least that's how she felt

[feral cape]

Names according to grandmas story are metaphysical you do in fact have a name

It can be given and taken and with it your power

What has less power than indifference

[quartz sky]

Void powers shaped by our perception, ie naming

Naming it untime for time travel purposes

[feral cape]

Albrecht wasn't beyond crackpot ideas he literally threw animals in hopes that the man in the wall would just devolve

[white venture]

Turned into an Eldritch mukbang

[quartz sky]

Anyone watch the expanse?

[white venture]

The indifference honestly reminds me a little of Annihilation if you ever watched that

(I highly recommend you do if you can handle a bit of eh. Innards)

[quartz sky]

I'll add that to my list! I haven't

[white venture]

It's a bit different to the book. O could try to throw a narrowing down of why I try to draw that comparison

[quartz sky]

Oooh I'll read the book first then, I've had an itch

But go for it

I don't mind spoilers

(just remembered how many plot relevant choices we make in game and as far as multiverse theory that makes my head hurt)

[white venture]

In the movie a Eldritch type of being arrived on earth. It had no understanding of itself, what it is, what it's purpose was. But, it functions like a prism. It creates what reflects from it. If it comes across an animal, a plant, what have you. It would take that information, and refract it into something different that made zero sense and seemed impossible. Turn humans into fungi, plants into animals, human and defleshed bear into one (but the human is somewhat aware of what it turned into but it has no control)

But not only does it refract and reflect physical but also time and space

It's like the Thing but cosmic horror. It feels NOTHING it just does. It can make beauty, or it can make nightmares beyond your minds capability to understand

[quartz sky]

Very hot hitchhikers guide to the galaxy but horror

[white venture]

It was also almost infantile in a way. Like playing with time and living things as though trying to understand things and to mimic what it touches

[old dome]

dagath's lore where she was forbidden from giving her horse a name by her orokin abusers is a testament to this.

[quartz sky]

Experimentation is a huge theme in warframe

[quartz sky]

So maybe every time we rename the void for a specific purpose like untime, or the void, it reflects that

Like it is what we want to see but not quite

[white venture]

Oh yeah it also really likes creating doppelgangers

[quartz sky]

Self aware universe feels very end of Minecraft to me rn

[old dome]

& its entirely for the purpose of getting a reaction rather than... actual curiosity about human life.

[old dome]

its one part of the universe & not the whole of it. very lovecraftian.

[quartz sky]

Any attention is good attention right?

[quartz sky]

That's what I'm talking abouttttt (I'm having so much fun I love lovecraftian horror thrillers and sci Fi)

Rather than being limited by the names we give it, I feel like it's pushing its own limits

The prefix in- can have multiple meanings, including "not," "in," or "into

Indifference as is not different, like the void should reflect reality

But it is taking it to mean separate from as in the colloquial separated/unaffected from reality

By naming it indifference, I think he attempted to limit it's power

But the void/Wally entity doesn't like limits or being just a tool

By naming it the man in the wall, It seems like he was attempting to contain it after being unable to devolve

[white venture]

I also love how the indifference storyline fits in to the "see into an ugly broken thing, and take away the pain". Especially when it comes to the theme of love and compassion. Literally the enemy to the very existence of being indifferent

[quartz sky]

Our pain is it's pain if it's the universe

Or it also reflects all of our pain

[white venture]

Like it sounds corny on the surface to fight something like this with love but imo it just actually makes sense philosophically

[quartz sky]

Isn't the power of love, compassion, connection the whole theme of the narmer arc

[old dome]

of course youre gonna fight it with love... what else would you fight an eldritch lovecraftian horror that experiments on people as its own form of scientific curiosity bc we're all just like ants to it?

[white venture]

Warframes in general tbh. If it weren't for the tennos ability to feel compassion and empathy the Warframes likely would've slaughtered everything in due time

[old dome]

its the whole theme of the game itself

[white venture]

Yeee

[quartz sky]

Awww

I'm having so much fun I love wf

[white venture]

I ditched Halo for this. Like it's insane this is FREE. All of this story, the characters. Free

[quartz sky]

I ditched destiny for the same reason! Former wow player too

[old dome]

me when the theme is love & compassion & basic human decency as a powerful force:

[white venture]

Like this is the ONLY game I would not feel guilty paying for the micro transaction stuff. Especially when you don't even need to use your own money because trade for plat exists or it's unlockable. Meanwhile Halo has nickel and dimed everything and absolutely killed it for me

[quartz sky]

Being able to get to an equal level through grinding without actually spending money is crazy

I've never played a game that let you do that

[old dome]

just farm primes or arcanes & trade them for plat. its so accessible to get.

[white venture]

I wish I was introduced sooner. I just started in like July.

[quartz sky]

Really that's just solid devs

Devs with balls of steel

[white venture]

Just yesterday I got reminded of the Purple Ordis/Lotus thing. It was just for a few days I experienced that. But I forget people dealt with that for apparently four years. Four years without the lotus

[quartz sky]

That's crazy

If love and acceptance closed our paradox, and closed 1999, what's the next paradox we need to address?

Hunhow?

[white venture]

That's the other thing. I love these devs to absolute death. They're actually human and care and try their best for us 😭

[old dome]

that grandpa is chilling in the seas of neptune (or was it uranus?) so no...

[white venture]

I miss hunhow. I'd like talking to him

[old dome]

im hoping its babyframe bc. hello?? whats up w any of that???

[quartz sky]

Come on peepaw let's go

[quartz sky]

TRUUEE

[white venture]

"I am Hunhow, Sentient Destroyer of Worlds! How dar- oh you wish to know my travels tenno very well"

"here's a cool gun for you btw"

[quartz sky]

Thanks peepaw

Btw peepaw my weird uncle had a miracle baby

[old dome]

i wasnt a big fan of hunhow but i love his. little character development in the new war... him acting all high & mighty then straight up panicking over the drifter going solo, & then the conversation w erra.... i love it.

[dire mountain]

I really liked his speech after jade shadows

"I remain: the great... and terrible, Hunhow"

[old dome]

couldnt help caring about your own enemy, huh? or a. weird version of the enemy, anyway.

[white venture]

He sounded very, eh, what's the word. Not really humbled bit, almost sad?

I loved it

[old dome]

hes so lonely

[dire mountain]

I wish we could visit him

[quartz sky]

Really that's where what's his face kinda came from right?

[dire mountain]

Like he may have hated us in the past but he hates us a lot less now

[quartz sky]

The shadow assassin daddy dude

[old dome]

stalker?? yeah he kinda kept him company.

[quartz sky]

Yeah dat guy

[old dome]

as much as a kinda-sorta silent grumpy angry assassin hunting down some kids would be company.

[dire mountain]

I think he'd appreciate some company. Considering his daughter hates him, his wife is dead, and his son is taken over by Pazuul

He really hasn't got anybody

[white venture]

I gotta show Grandpa Hunhow the hyperactive nerd I pulled by also being a hyperactive nerd

[quartz sky]

Same

If hunhow saw autistic goth gf I think it would fix him

[dire mountain]

"Yo gramps look what I pulled"

[white venture]

Lotus and Loid sending me to save time and reality itself and I come back with Amir

[old dome]

& whats worse is that he actually tried to save both of them. natah's alive but wants nothing to do w him & i think he. grew to respect that, even if it pains him? but losing erra must have hurt him a lot bc he warned him.

[quartz sky]

Natah is his daughter?

[white venture]

Erra shatters my heart still being conscious

[old dome]

...how far are you into wf quests??

[dire mountain]

He's still a father at the end of the day. He may be misguided at times but I do think he did want the best for his children

[tall echo]

[old dome]

did i spoil anything by accident cnfksbdnsbdnd

[dire mountain]

Ignoring the whole, yk old war and everything

[quartz sky]

No I don't think so, I probably didn't register it at the time lol

So literally peepaw

[white venture]

Erras like "Tenno, i- I don't know if she will forgive me. But. You will. Won't you?" and audibly tearing up

[quartz sky]

I see

[tall echo]

It's the whole point of the natah quest

[quartz sky]

Where was I lmao

[old dome]

YEAH its just that what he thought was best is... actually not & i think him chilling for a bit made him realize that. made him reflect on it.

smth smth the time period you came back to from cryosleep is nothing like how it once was smth smth

everything has changed. anyone would struggle w that if they had missed years of their lives stuck in cryosleep.

[dire mountain]

Its really what makes his speech in the email we get impactful. Instead of "I remain: the Great and Terrible Hunhow" it's more "I remain: the great... and terrible, Hunhow"

Hes admitting to himself that he's failed despite him using the same line he did before

[old dome]

that pause is so. loaded.

[quartz sky]

Yeah that was the tone I got from it too

Like he was so defeated

[dire mountain]

It really makes me hope we see more of him

[quartz sky]

Based on 1999 and unresolved baby Tenno, I think we will

[white venture]

If we are really going to Tau it would be almost criminal to not include him and narmer

[quartz sky]

Let's gooo peepawwww

[dire mountain]

And also just, with the whole thing of love being poison to the Indifference

Like Hunhow was not a great father but id at least want him to tell his daughter that he was wrong

And that he's sorry

[old dome]

YES!!!

[proper barn]

I mean him helping us during the new war

[quartz sky]

I too would like an apology from my dad lmao

[proper barn]

is a act of love.

[dire mountain]

Absolutely

[old dome]

ik natah wants nothing to do w him but. an apology from the man who... wasnt the best father to her would go a long way i think. she doesnt have to forgive him for being the way he was, but it is still better than nothing.

im gonna cry now i love a tragic family dynamic

[quartz sky]

Lol

[glacial bough]

I mean, Hunhow isn't sorry is the hang up there

He doesn't really think he was wrong, he's just more tired

[proper barn]

he's become a soilder that doesn't care about the war he was fighting for anymore.

[quartz sky]

His best soldier went and had a baby lmao

[glacial bough]

Yeah, he's tired and kind of over it.

But he also wishes he was still in it, he does not like us

[quartz sky]

But peepawwww

Uppies

[old dome]

character development for hunhow when??

[quartz sky]

Next big update probs

[proper barn]

I think he is starting more and more to accept the current state of the world.

[dire mountain]

Hes been getting it

The new war and jade shadows are absolutely character development for him

[glacial bough]

Oh yeah, Hunhow has kind of resigned himself to how things are

[proper barn]

He would not regret like orstrating the death of the orokin but he thinks the tenno right now are fine. would be how i would write it.

[sly pagoda]

I mean I think once HunHow started to connect dots of Ballas' plan he realized that no sun means hes in a planet sized ice cube rocketing through space.

[quartz sky]

Jade shadows was crazy and it just.. happened

[glacial bough]

He still wishes he could kill us

[proper barn]

ehhhhh

With the Jade shadows stuff he sounds so old and regretfull.

[dire mountain]

Hes still definitely got a bit of a grudge against us

Which fair

[quartz sky]

Because natah chose us over him

[dire mountain]

But it isnt full blown murderous anymore afaik

[quartz sky]

Dude was jealous more than anything

[sly pagoda]

The drifter and tenno are in the "devil you know" category for him

[glacial bough]

Hunhow straight up says he wishes he could've been the one to destroy the Yareli he finds

[dire mountain]

Hes been able to see past his distain for us. Helping the Drifter save the Lotus, and even giving us the blueprint for Jade.

[proper barn]

I mean they where at war with the orokin a war the sentients basiclly won before the warframes came along. Like they where in the House and the orokin empire couldn't use any of their weapons against them.

[quartz sky]

I need mynameisbyff to get in here

[proper barn]

like They where in the Castle they where over the Apls.

The Bastlie had been breached.

[quartz sky]

But us personality, not Tenno overall

[glacial bough]

As said. Hunhow accepts the status of the system and what that means

[quartz sky]

God let me look at the timeline again

[glacial bough]

He'll never like the Tenno, probably ever

[proper barn]

also it's implied like the war started in the tau system

[glacial bough]

But there's not much he can do about it now

[proper barn]

like we started there and then we where pushed back

[past vortex]

U bhys know Victor inna hex missions who is he,is he a younger entrati

[dire mountain]

But that doesn't mean he has to hate us

[glacial bough]

What

[old dome]

no??

[quartz sky]

Okay yeah no we were there and he hates us

[glacial bough]

He doesn't, he's mostly choosing to

[past vortex]

Oh that's what one of my friends said🤣

Who even is he then?

[old dome]

yeah i dont think your friend knows what theyre talking about

[old dome]

just some random dude

just some npc

[past vortex]

Ahhhh ok

[dire mountain]

One of the higher ups in scaldra

[past vortex]

Makes senses

[past vortex]

Ohhhhhhhhh ok ok

[quartz sky]

1999 is pre orokin empire

I don't want to go to work tomorrow ughhh

[sudden cave]

so warframe powers come from the tenno channeling the void, right? ignoring umbra's story/gameplay segregation where he can use his powers when he's ai-controlled. albrecht has a note in the arg somewhere about how the hex can have a little void, as a treat, so they don't need a tenno. otherwise the warframes are just humans physically enhanced by the helminth, they can't throw fireballs or teleport or whatever, yes?

[glacial bough]

they could

The void is a battery, power are inhrerent to the frame

[proper barn]

They use void I think in part of it but we know a few warframes that like worked without tenno.

[sudden cave]

the warframes were originally conceived as their own project unrelated to the tenno. the two combining was a (possibly engineered) coincidence. later frames might have been designed with that in mind, and obviously doylistically speaking they've all got themes, but i'm pretty sure they can't break physics on their own

[proper barn]

Umbra, Kullevro, Stalker

[sudden cave]

dante

[proper barn]

Jade kinda.

Dante gets taken over by a book.

[glacial bough]

They can, that's why the Void is their battery

[lean garden]

so warframe powers come from the tenno channeling the void, right?
niope

[glacial bough]

It's part infestation nonsense, part void powered nonsense

[past sage]

Approximately how many years are between the orokin empire fall and modern origin system era?

[sudden cave]

"lots"

[past sage]

Thousands?

[sudden cave]

at least, yeah

[uneven burrow]

generations, how many? answerȘ yes

[sudden cave]

you could take the appearance of the earth in the starchart as an argument that it hasn't been long enough for continental drift to be visible from space, but it's more likely they just didn't think about that and/or wanted earth to be familiar to the player

[past sage]

Ah ok got it

Ty

[sudden cave]

oh wait the orokin empire
i don't think we know for sure. long enough that warframes were turning into myths rather than "oh yeah my grandma's cousin saw one once"

[restive river]

The warframes are void powered via the heart of deimos like all other void tech

The tenno just pilot the warframes, they do not power them

[feral cape]

Bare minimum 1 thousand

[restive river]

If they did then what happened in the heart of deimos quest wouldn’t have happened

The Warframes weren’t made with the tenno in mind anyway as they predate the tenno returning and transference being discovered

[sudden cave]

warframes are not void tech. warframes cannot be void tech. transference is void tech

[restive river]

Warframes are void tech.

[feral cape]

Warframes are void tech

[glacial bough]

Tranference is regular old tech

[restive river]

The Tenno have innate transference post-war within

[lean garden]

warframes are part of the void tech because they rely on the heart to be powered

[feral cape]

I think it's still void technology no?

[restive river]

It should be but I dont think we have enough info to suggest one way or the other

I can see somatics and transference bolts being void tech as they would have been discovered post-tenno transference discovery

[feral cape]

Bauu i have a question for you

[lean garden]

No

[feral cape]

Too bad

[lean garden]

jk waddup

[feral cape]

How well do you think your psychoanalysis thingy theory is holding up

[restive river]

The tenno also didnt utilize their void abilities until much later as Margulis sealed away our abilities, including our innate transference so they couldn’t have powered the warframes pre-war within anyway

[feral cape]

Kill albretch so I'm not albretch thing

[lean garden]

still holding, albeit more delayed

[restive river]

And again, the Warframes predate the discovery of the tenno and transference, they have always utilized void tech and the heart of deimos.

[sudden cave]

no. we rely on the heart to facilitate transference into our warframes, which cannot act on their own because they aren't people. the original warframes, who were created via the helminth, had nothing to do with the void or the tenno

[restive river]

Source?

[glacial bough]

They have nothing to do with the Tenno

Warframes were always powered by the Void

[feral cape]

https://tenor.com/view/does-he-know-gif-17552966235424643644

[lean garden]

we rely on the heart to facilitate transference into our warframes
as per Heart of Deimos, when the heart shut down only our frame shut down not our ability to use transference, we still used transference to connect to the Snake, albeit via jury rigging our impulse stream to the control systems

[restive river]

Cause we know the warframes are powered by the void via the heart of deimos and that transference is innate to the tenno post-war within
Prior to that we used somatics

The only thing about transference that relates to the void is that it’s an innate ability of the tenno, we don’t have info on how it works in terms of somatics.

[inner halo]

Eleanor KIM chats further confirm the Drifter/Operator powers are innately within them now and not just outside void being channeled, which seems to be how Warframe abilities work

[restive river]

I’ll add onto this with the fact that transference was innate to us pre-margulis sealing our abilities away too

[restive river]

We also know the warframes, including the hex are void attuned
They’re void tech, powered by the heart of deimos

[tall echo]

Always has been

[bright folio]

Are there any warframes that weren’t made by ballas? All I can think is someone like qorvex and maybe Dante

[inner halo]

Yeah! And in a fun way the gameplay reflects this. Operator/Drifter have innate energy Regen, Warframes don't

[feral cape]

Cyte probably corvex titania kinda and rev

[lean garden]

dante is probably in ballas's hands, you might find more luck in caliban, which was made by erra, but likely having some aid from ballas

titania was made by silvana, but under Ballas's own project

[glacial bough]

The only confirmed are Caliban and Quorvex

[restive river]

Erra made Caliban
Dante was likely Ballas
Qorvex was Albrecht

[feral cape]

Rev

[glacial bough]

Maybe Xaku

[restive river]

I can see in a roundabout way Xaku was made by the void

[inner halo]

Xaku made themself

[bright folio]

Wasn’t xaku an accident?

[restive river]

Technically made by Ballas but brought together by the void

[bright folio]

I’m pretty sure xaku became a thing because 3 warframes got amalgamated by the void into xaku

[restive river]

Lost warframes from entrati void expeditions became a composite due to the void

We don’t know the exact details unfortunately

I’m inclined to believe it has to do with some level of conceptual embodiment, the void listening to the pain of the lost frames and bringing them together forever

With Xaku Prime being the result of Albrecht studying the original Xaku, a purposeful version of the composite

[bright folio]

He basically saw how messed up xaku was and tried to perfect him with his prime

Which is interesting

[restive river]

*them

[bright folio]

My bad

[restive river]

Xaku is neither he nor she.

[bright folio]

Tbh I just forget since I barely play them

How do I put spoilers around my message?

[lean garden]

||

both sides

[tall echo]

||like this||

[restive river]

Xaku has deep ties to the void and reqiuems in their ability names
Plus “The Lost” have the line from the Ris reqiuem mod and Ballas wouldn’t have known about those so it makes sense they were discovered by and improved upon by Albrecht

[bright folio]

||yo||

[restive river]

Or even his daughter tbh but Albrecht seems more likely, especially since Xaku has the specific Albrecht obols (obols with a line through them)

[bright folio]

Ohhh it’s two ok

[tall echo]

That was just an awkward fail

[restive river]

Also you’re good, I’m sorry if I came off as rude at all
Mistakes happen

[bright folio]

spoilers to anyone who hasn’t finished the story so pls don’t open ||is ballas truly dead or we just don’t know yet||

[restive river]

Yes he is dead

[bright folio]

You didn’t it’s all good

[bright folio]

So ||albrecth is the new big bad guy||

I like that

[restive river]

Him and Wally

[bright folio]

Something fresh ||no more daddy issues from bally||

[tall echo]

If people come here before finishing the story it's their fault if they get spoiled

[restive river]

Albrecht is a sorta reluctant ally for us, he knows how to stop Wally but he also just. Sucks lol

[bright folio]

I love how we call him Wally, it’s so good

[feral cape]

I don't think albretch is a big bad

[lean garden]

just an A-hole

[bright folio]

Albretch tbh is just a mystery that’s misunderstood

[restive river]

Our two next best buddy factions hate him :P

[feral cape]

He's evil when needed but once wally leaves he's kinda just gonna leave

[bright folio]

I don’t think he has the ability to kill Wally

[feral cape]

Or become evil if de does that

[bright folio]

Wally seems like some sort of ancient god or something

[restive river]

The Cavia aren’t a fan and neither are the Hex, Albrecht is not a good person but he’s required for us to fight Wally to some degree

[feral cape]

Id pay good money for evil grandpa yaoi space wizard

[restive river]

Doubtful he’s a god, but he is our most powerful foe yet

[inner halo]

I guess Ballas ||could be alive as a consciousness. The Ordan Karris say Ballas has died many times before. It seems Continuity can be done post death. But I assume he's dead for good and hope so for just good story telling sake.||

[bright folio]

Albretch just does his own thing, he doesn’t care (or at least I don’t think he does or he has a bigger plan)

[restive river]

Lettie alludes to him being a god but she doesn’t know that much, she’s also the most religious of the Hex and is just kinda calling it how she sees it

[glacial bough]

I have no doubt Albrecht is gonna sacrificce himself in some way to set up the final blow against Wally

[feral cape]

Android 31 said he thinks wally "takes up atleast an infinite 2 dimensional space" when I questioned him about wally

[restive river]

I hope we can swipe his drip before then

[bright folio]

We should’ve cephaloned him or put him in a bottle like we did with nihil, ||ballas decoration would be funny||

[feral cape]

I want more void magic not my stupid tenno abilities make me or gay grandpa a wizard

[bright folio]

I really want us to do more man in the wall stuff, he’s been around since 2017 and we’ve barely learned about him

[feral cape]

I do wonder where Android is now

[inner halo]

Wally seems to be the manifestation of Albrecht's fears about the void created as Albrecht was the first conscious mind to touch the void.

Not confirmed but it's the most repeated theory in game

[restive river]

I want to utilize reqiuems like magic words

[restive river]

I hope he’s well

[feral cape]

He vanished came back for whispers and has vanished again

[restive river]

I saw him in a random comment section like a year ago

[bright folio]

So Wally would exist due to Albrecht?

[glacial bough]

Maybe

[restive river]

He exists due to Albrecht yes

[feral cape]

I found atsia on reddit

[restive river]

Signs point to that being the case at least

[bright folio]

But then why would Wally mess with rell or whatever his name is from the chains of harrow

[restive river]

Albrecht seems to think he created him

[glacial bough]

Wally is focused on the Sol system because of Albrecht

[feral cape]

I get wflore on the reddit for you page thing and sometimes I open them

[restive river]

Rell saw Wally for what he really was and entrapped him for as long as he could

[feral cape]

And ballas

[bright folio]

Where are Albretch labs anyhow?

[glacial bough]

We don't know for sure if Albrecht directly created Wally

[restive river]

He wants his fingy back

[inner halo]

Half in the void, half in Deimos.

[restive river]

We know Albrecht definitely sees it that way and presently he knows the most about Wally

[inner halo]

Yeah, and at least the one Duviri character thinks that too

[glacial bough]

Albrecht definietly sees it as his fault, whether or not he directly created them

[bright folio]

I wonder if Albretch is smarter than ballas

[restive river]

Things definitely point to it being the case but it may be more so that Albrecht is responsible for bringing Wally’s attention to the Origin System

[feral cape]

Sure but we're dealing with acient being with seemingly godlike powers i don't think albretch is 100% responsible for its non existence existences

[inner halo]

Ballas honestly doesn't seem that smart, he is charismatic and had smart archemedians lol

[glacial bough]

Ballas is still a genuis, he made most everything himsself

[feral cape]

This is lile comparing senku and lelouch

[restive river]

He directly states he created him, that may just be how he views it as he may not have all the details

[bright folio]

He did create the deadliest murdering fashion designing machines to ever exist so he’s pretty smart

[feral cape]

Both are incredibly intelligent but neither could do what the other did

Albrecht is book smart ballas is people smart

[bright folio]

I’d like to imagine in my head canon that Albrecht is very awkward

Why did he leave loid anyways?

[restive river]

He was totally awkward when rizzing up Loid

[restive river]

To try and protect him

[bright folio]

From Wally?

[restive river]

Mhm

[feral cape]

Yes

I do wonder what exactly are the limits on wallys power

[bright folio]

So I wonder how long Wally has been around then

[feral cape]

Considering he merged infinite timelines

[restive river]

Well, he can collapse possibilities

[bright folio]

Was he always a thing that idk Albrecht made stronger or is he some sort of james sunderland pyramid head type of deal

[feral cape]

Yet is getting demolished by a moody teenager

[restive river]

Wally also wants to eat Earth’s possibilities iirc?

[feral cape]

Guh?

[restive river]

I dont remember the exact line

[bright folio]

Wally does seem sort of godly

[restive river]

Coulda been a lie from Albrecht

[restive river]

He’s more eldritch than godly

[bright folio]

What’s the difference?

[restive river]

Eleanor has a great convo about Wally

[feral cape]

One of semantics

What's eldritch and what's godly depends on who's looking at it

[restive river]

I wouldn’t consider Wally a god
But with what we know he is absolutely an eldritch horror

[bright folio]

Ohhh cosmic horror

[restive river]

Lettie views him as a god
Eleanor def sees him as something more eldritch

[restive river]

Exactly

[feral cape]

Yes

[restive river]

Regardless Wally is our most powerful foe yet

A void entity like no other

[feral cape]

It seems he's ahamkara like and can't actually use most of his power outside of deals

[bright folio]

Ballas did messed up things for a reason, Wally just likes chaos for the hell of it

[restive river]

Wally’s just a silly lil guy

[mint laurel]

Is there a possibility that the Drifter is its own ancestor since he traveled to 1999 and decided to make a life there? We know that he/she likes Höllvania and feel the Hex as a family, and the detail that the Drifter and his Hex partner are very active in s3x

[restive river]

Who traumatizes kids for fun…

[feral cape]

Considering if could use most of his power he shouldn't be struggling to kill moody teenagers

[bright folio]

So Wally is 100% some void horror

[feral cape]

Not in the slightest

[glacial bough]

Wally is bound by his lost finger

[sudden cave]

they're stuck in a time loop, so no

[feral cape]

He merged the timelines with a finger sealed

[proper barn]

But he's also just stuck in "the wall" somehow

[restive river]

Doubtful just because we changed the timeline afterward and the Drifter wasn’t always a thing in that moment of history

[bright folio]

Is Wally’s finger the one powering your rail jack?

[feral cape]

He's powerful incomprehensiblly so so there must be a second condition to his power

[restive river]

Yes

[feral cape]

One of many

[restive river]

There’s multiple fingers

The original is somewhere, best he doesnt get it

[bright folio]

Have you guys seen interstellar? You know the one part where he’s behind the book shelves and he can see everything? That’s what I see when I hear about Wally being “the man in the wall”

[restive river]

He can only traverse strands of khra

[restive river]

Oooo, love that movie :]

[proper barn]

Not powering.

[mint laurel]

There's a possibility that Albrecht would unmake the loop when we defeat Wally

[proper barn]

@bright folio the thing the finger does is let us hyper space jump.

[bright folio]

Loop? Defeating Wally? I’ve come to bargain ahh ahh fight

[proper barn]

It's also I think how the solar rails work.

[restive river]

We retain the loop to keep history changed

[proper barn]

If I was to guess.

[restive river]

“Anansi, I’ve come to bargain”

[proper barn]

The whole reason like the Zariman is currently like really really void drenched is cuz the finger drive is broken and leaking and turned on.

[bright folio]

And isn’t it messed up because we made that deal with Wally?

[proper barn]

No

It's messed up cuz it crashed.

[bright folio]

What deal did we make

[proper barn]

Now did it crash cuz of Wally? Maybe

[bright folio]

We ran into Wally while he was napping, that’s why he’s pissed

[restive river]

He was there before the crash

Smiling at Yonta

[proper barn]

He was

[mint laurel]

I think it is more a Wally thing, Yonta says she saw herself smiling when she was in the reliquary.

[proper barn]

Also it was the first thing Albretch the first person to go to the Void saw.

[restive river]

The jump was rushed
But its also possible it was due to Wally
We don’t know yet

[bright folio]

Oh so Wally manifests itself to look like you sometimes

[proper barn]

Was Wally.

[bright folio]

Wally is weird

[restive river]

Typically yes

[bright folio]

I like it

[restive river]

I still find it curious he doesn’t/can’t manifest as Drifter

[bright folio]

So Wally could be responsible for tenno creation

[restive river]

But he can manifest as our Operator, Albrecht and Loid

[restive river]

He was, there is no Tenno without that deal

He willingly gave a piece of himself to us, that is our power.

[mint laurel]

Yeah, he's like a Lovecraftian begin with a little touch of Mandala catalogue

[bright folio]

Do we know what the deal was?

[mint laurel]

No

[sudden cave]

not exactly

[bright folio]

So the Tenno have void powers due to Wally?

[restive river]

Not exactly, we can kinda make some assumptions though

We offered him our light
He accepted
Then offered to save them, all of them, we just had to want it.

[mint laurel]

Yeah, the deal is explicitly shown on The New War

[sudden cave]

have you played the new war yet?

[restive river]

What our light is exactly isn’t known, possibly our Oro but we have yet to see if Oro really exists?

I doubt he just wanted our globelight :p

[bright folio]

I have but it’s been a minute tbh I forgot, I never started paying attention to the man in the wall stuff until recently

[restive river]

I do think it’s interesting that we made the initial offer, though he set up the situation.

He made our parents go mad

Its not confirmed but it seems only the parents went mad too

And only the children became tenno

[glacial bough]

I wouldn't the include the light part as an actual deal, Wally just wants something in return for the actual handshake deal

[mint laurel]

Yeah, he probably wanted our souls, "has lost your light? Here, u can take mine" "thanks kiddo, i think i will" light is an interpretation of the soul in some tales

[inner halo]

Seemingly according to the KIM chat with Quincy where drifter talks parents, at least in the Drifter's version of things, he gave all the kids void powers and then later made the deal to have everyone be saved

[restive river]

Which is why I think its our “Oro” which may be more than just our “soul”
It depends on what the Oro actually is