Beamers and repair

[azure spear]

Beamers + repair micro is a super uninteractive experience, i think repair rate on most units is way too high

[tough heron]

Repair on porc early is way too effective because bp needed is low and cons turret or commander can repair them way too fast.
Also static have more hp so repairing is way better.

I would say that repair should be i would say 30% less effective on static defense for a start to see the différence

[balmy sky]

i feel like repairing t2 and t3 stuff is way less good than on t1

[little condor]

yep I've been toting this issue ever since porc got 10% bp buff months ago.

I can accept the 10% bp buff on llt since it's for 1v1 small teams, but why bp buff beamer? you rarely make beamer until you finish expanding in 1v1, meanwhile beamer repair is heavily used in 8v8

It shifts the game into just comboing com/con/rez bot with cent or beamer to answer your opponent's threats with a economic unit

[little condor]

bp change (I think it's fine, repair spam on tzar or fatboy is just as bad)

whoever thinks beamer bp is good needs to play a few games against it

[molten crypt]

If repair were not that good, wouldn't that mean that I have to always open with centurion/mace/thug on glitters?

[little condor]

na the opposite. global repair nerf if everything is equal favours the skirmishers that don't get hit. artillery, rocket bot, whistler

it's crazy because you can reinforce rez bots to counter opponents slower units like janus/thug/cent
rez bots have multiple other uses, they can repair/rez anything else when they are not assisting the beamer

and crazy thing is beamer levels up quickly if opponent attacks it
beamer can also be rezzed with xp now

just brainless repair rez

Another example: beamer repairs at ~30hps / 100bp. so rez bot repairs 60hps, com repairs 90 hps

one rez bot can easily out repair 1 shellshocker, assuming it hits with full dmg every time (60hps vs 42 dps)

[wanton crater]

A more fun way to do repair is to penalise "in combat" repair, while increasing out of combat repair. Retreat repairing your units is an interesting thing to do.
idk quite how bar does it atm, if repair is 100% bp cost for a full repair, but that could be lessend, while units damaged in the last say, 10 sec, only get repaired at a quarter of normal repair speed.

[azure spear]

i think unit repair for the most part is pretty interesting, rez bot and com repairing units and microing is pretty high skill, but when it comes to repairing defences its both super unintuitive to understand how much you need to kill something but also super super punishing not being able to kill porc, because your feeding inside enemy defences which means its already essentially secured by the opponent

i think its fine to keep the strategy of zero units only porc as an option but right now its sooo high value to do that compared to actually making units to push

another reason its so high value is because porc is basically always valuable outside of like gauntlets, it will be useful at any stage of the game to have beamers on a front whereas having t1 units quickly becomes a waste of time, this means going units vs a porc spammer is usually suboptimal, ofc you can have the chance of winning lane, but in 8v8 i find it way easier to be the porc spammer with repair, since you have bp for future t2 and defensives that will be useful in t2 stage rather then t1 units which will be outscaled super fast

[molten crypt]

Can't u just target the construction turrets (with wolverine for example) if u are against a beamer? And 8 rocket bots should be able to one shot a beamer (also rocket bots can be repaired against a beamer)?

I see more the problem with HLT because the HLT will snipe the rezbots who are repairing the rocket bots.

[final wedge]

It would be nice to have t2 rezbot equivalent. Maybe with more range and bp, losing the rez is fine, repair is enough.

Ah wait. This is the printer

[final wedge]

You can't target the conturret because it means getting into range and dying

[azure spear]

ye usually killing the conturrets requires either t2 units or gauntlet in my experience

which again goes back to the point that its way more efficient to play beamer wall then to make units because you are going to need to eat that t1 arty or skirmish at somepoint since its outscaled whereas beamers and bp isn't

[sturdy umbra]

While i agree beamer is too strong, its also maybe the single most crucial building that prevents 8v8s being total shitshow considering skill gaps between players. With beamer as it is, 30os can hold vs 50os

[azure spear]

i don't like that argument if a 30 os can use it well a 50 os can use it much better, doesn't make it balanced

[sturdy umbra]

Yeah its not, but it keeps small and highly varied playerbase able to have big team games without folding in 4min

[little condor]

eh, i rather people hold by making non-stop thugs + hlt then making beamer crap

i have a forge build where I just raw dog 4-5 con turrets and if their com and 6 thugs walk up i'll just make 2 twinguards in the time it takes for them to walk to me. imagine having that level of disrepect for enemy units that you can throw up a successful defense in less time than it takes for them to cross the screen

not only can i throw up towers quickly, every single tower i make can get 240-300hps healing

con turret spam and porc abuse makes choke point maps stale, making porc builds harder to threaten with offensive units

[azure spear]

i think forge is a terrible example same with rosetta because of the amount of economy players are given

forge is a map where shellshcoker spam in t1 is pretty meta and the game immediately swaps to t2 in around 5m regardless of gameplay in t1 due to the 4.0 mexs

[little condor]

wovlerine is good on that map but the danger is that they stall you and get to t2 with bedbug sheldon tzar or w/e
from the carry spot is relabbing into wovlerine is slow, it's better for a support position to make them

but if you open vehicle it's hard to get enough e to quickly get 5-7 wolverine cause it's a crystal map
you need team to be pushing at the same time and after you break through wolverine is good against porc but useless against the t2 from enemy strong side techer

I've seen various things: rocket bot + greed, thug + wolverine push, various greed builds. porc greed

[azure spear]

if your able to push on t1 of forge then your not playing a good lobby imo, map is fully frontline afk thats why wolverine is meta, t2 is the main gameplay of that map, since the chokepoints are virtually impossible to push early game and the economy is so high game usually reverts to pounder wolverine or any other arty + porc, main spots never play wolverine really but if your talking about carry spots then your gonna be virtually afk till t2 ive never seen any sort of play on carry spot in t1

[little condor]

so what's the point of wolverine to clear the way so you can get your t2 porc down first, if you choose?

yeah carry spot should go to t2 the question is how little can you get away with and what unit you make first

idea of wolverine would be to force more units from them and pressure their porc -> t2 or t2-> porc as much as possible

[final wedge]

If it is 8v8. You literally have like 2-3 dudes for 2 narrow choke per side. Not counting the carrier.

You can just afk straight into minute 4 t2. Even if they push your t1 guy. One suicide bomb or 1 tzar or whatever will instantly erase all the t1 progress

[azure spear]

to deny anything in the lane