Rezzers

[summer rain]

Why do we keep deciding that rez subs need to be nerfed. Please, for the move of God, compared rezbots to rez subs and reconcile SOME of the difference between them.

[azure quest]

rezsubs were nerfed? when?

[steady abyss]

@summer rain can you elaborate pls?

[summer rain]

• [Rez subs]
- Removed reclaimspeed reduction -> +20% faster reclaim. Matches its usual buildpower now
- Autoheal 2hp/s -> 5hp/s (lost its idleautoheal of 3hp/s after 10s)
- +16% energycost, metalcost

I'd consider this a nerf because 90% of what they do is repair so now I'm just repairing for increased metal cost?

but why is laz, for instance 130m/1400e/2800bp for a 200 bp unit and rezsub is 240m/3500e/6200bp for a 150 bp unit?

over 2x cost for less bp on a unit that still insta dies

BP requirement of rezsub is INSANE. I think when I said keep deciding to nerf rezsub I was misremembering a change. There was a sea rework option a while back that increased the bp cost to 8.~k that fortunately doesn't seem to have been merged

[steady abyss]

While I think that rez sub should be worse metal for metal.........that is a huge difference that I didnt consider. Especially since they are 2 shot by everything. They should reduce their build cost or m + e

[void knot]

You forgot they have their sonar range not rendered also :
#1444037913464541195 message

(rez sub have the advantage to be underwater unit, which mean hide from land radar by default and damage a lot reduced from land weapon even in shallow water)

[steady abyss]

They have sonar?

[summer rain]

I cant kill air cons with subs or tanks so we should make those more expensive

[tender rivet]

Ngl it is kinda wild how much BP a rez sub takes. Like sea takes no BP compared to other labs(kinda broken, see: flagship). Then rez sub takes a ton and feels horrible to build

[summer rain]

not enough to matter

[steady abyss]

Lol I thought they just had los cause I had to bumb into mexs to eat them

[regal swallow]

yeah but rez have like 78 movespeed, bot turning, and decent 430 los
rez sub 66 movespeed, 300 los

eating reclaim speed is not the primary bp sink since everything eats fast, it's repair/rez

[void knot]

Even if it is small, it matter !
(good for agressive reclaim)

[summer rain]

no it isnt

[steady abyss]

Ive only used rez subs for aggressive reclaiming once but it was a massive skill gap anyway

[summer rain]

They just die if you do and that's a huge waste due to the bp

For the record, im not saying rez subs need a buff. I'm saying that changes need to be made to decrease the rez sub and rez bot gap

[deft flax]

Well, it will become visible in 2-3 weeks probably. So 🤷🏽‍♂️

[summer rain]

wdym?

[deft flax]

I made a PR that will reduce the minimum requirement to show sonar to include rez subs.

[azure quest]

to be clear: this is either a rez sub buff or a rezbot nerf right? (or small buff/nerf to both)

[summer rain]

or both. no reason for such a large disparity

[azure quest]

by the way where is this posted again? i remember the reclaim speed change but not the cost increase

[summer rain]

I copied that from the github, but also changelog in game

[azure quest]

where is it on the github? like a gist link or somewhere on https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/tree/master ? i can’t find it

never mind i found it through git history on the rez sub page itself

i would support reverting the cost increase while keeping the reclaim speed and idle heal buff. i fail to see what justified the cost increase anyways when neither rez nor repair speed were buffed, only reclaim speed

[summer rain]

I still think it needs more than that

rezbot is 130m/1400e/2800bp for a 200 bp unit and rezsub is 240m/3500e/6200bp for a 150 bp unit?

PLUS rezbot has like 78 movespeed, bot turning, and decent 430 los
rez sub 66 movespeed, 300 los

Rezsub has: +84.62% M Cost, + 150% E cost, +121.43% BP cost and in return it gets: -25% BP, -15.38% speed, -30.23% sight range, Slower turning and acceleration

[azure quest]

the part that can’t be quantified, however, is that rezsubs basically only operate on ships, and rezbots basically only operate on land units. i have not done the math to verify whether ships on average have more HP per BP than bots on average, but i would not be surprised if this is the case. so 150 naval BP is not directly comparable to 200 land BP

also i will disclaim this next part with the fact that i don’t play much sea and am not a good sea player by any means. but frig vs frig and frig+destroyer vs frig+destroyer are common compositions, right? and in those compositions rezsubs actively repairing under the fleet are not vulnerable unless the opponent all-in pushes onto your fleet.

whereas in thug vs thug or rocket vs rocket, rezbots that are actively repairing are always at risk of catching a stray plasma/rocket shot or two and thus popping

tldr i don’t think metal/energy efficiency between the two rezzers has to be closely matched for the two units to be balanced since they operate in mutually exclusive domains and contexts

[regal swallow]

rez bot can repair boat on the coast. generally speaking land is a larger % of the game

[azure quest]

do ppl actually do that?

[regal swallow]

yes, you should it's good
not in the middle of a fight but to repair up

b/c there are limited ways to influence the sea cost effectively, why not use the most broken unit in the game to

[summer rain]

they can be pretty valuable because the way to micro well is to back ships up

[summer rain]

yes I do it

[azure quest]

intriguing

i suppose it’s made easier by both better average speed and survivability of boats

[summer rain]

frigate and thugs are both about 2BP/1HP

1.91 BP/health thugs

1.94 BP/health frigate

so thugs are better there

[azure quest]

…wow i see. and at a glance it seems oppressor is like 2.6 BP/health and aggravators are also about 2.6 BP/health. the only stark contrast is supporters vs grunts, but that’s not a practical thing to repair in most cases anyways

[summer rain]

supporter gets 1 shot so yeah lol

[azure quest]

ok i am swayed, buff rezsub please. or at least we need a good explanation from balance team about why it is how it is, as my previous reasons seem to fall flat

seems somewhat silly to literally use coastline rezbots as a better way to repair than using rezsubs

[burnt wigeon]

Isn't the main reason it's worse/worse for cost because its a t1 sub and has the inherent advantages of being a sub?

Many fewer things can kill subs than can kill rez bots especially in t1 and it can't be stunned by shuri or picked off by supporters like rez bots can by grunts.

Whether it being a sub is worth being worse is a valid question but I do think there's quite a bit of value there.

[cloud urchin]

Also the HP pool of ships. If a frigate and thug repair the same HP/BP, it's easier to get use out of repairs on the frigate due to higher HP.

That being said, nerf rez bot BP is okay with me. Maybe buildspeed = 100 and resurrectspeed = 200

[regal swallow]

yeah but being a sub doesn't justify it being 1.84x the metal cost, 2.2x the build cost, and 150 vs 200 bp, 66 vs 78 speed

it's not a bad unit and rezzing is supposed to be bot specialty, but still doesn't make sense to consider rez sub too strong when rez bot exists

[summer rain]

This doesn't make any sense. The rezsub doesn't interact with land ever. How can it be balanced on if land units can kill it?

are we trying to put floaties on a janus now?

[regal swallow]

generally being land-influencing is higher value because it interacts with more of the game (bar leans towards being played on land). technically rez bot can reach farther into sea then rez sub can reach onto land

[summer rain]

very true

and rezsub has to expose itself to land to do that as well in most cases

[mortal fossil]

Pls dont nerf resbots. Rn they are fun to play. Everyone got them. They bring in some good mechnics like reclaiming trees for ernergy and they are fine. Ofc they are very strong, but sometimes thats the only thing helping you to turn the tide, which is also good. Your opponent needs to consider pushing and losing units. Repairing with those takes some micro. Yeah, you can steamroll with sufficient energy and a good amount of them. But tbf, that does not happen often and if it does its mostly related to a front, which would have been lost anyway. Speeds up things. Also I want to remember repairing turrets to last longer against arty is a thing. They are strong. Yes. Is it bad ? No.
Do sea res subs need a buff ? Yes. They are expensive to lose and you have a hard time getting enough to properly heal ships. You ships need to stay in place, which they often can not long enough and res sub is to slow. Especially in sea, where every ship counts they are high stake play. Not like you couldnt use them. You can. But only on certain maps and mostly later in the game. Due to the cost they have low-mid impact.

[void knot]

Legion rez sub have -240 BP cost, time to be legion sea main @summer rain

[summer rain]

I mean they need a nerf tbh

[mortal fossil]

I stop playing this game when they remove rewarding micro. Wouldnt be interesting anymore. Math of the game is clear. Would end in eco as long as you can and spam units when you have much greater eco. How are you supposed to win against someone that went greed without units like res bots ?

Yeah, you can move units better, but at some point that advantage gets less great, the more units are on the field.

[summer rain]

sitting 10 rezbots beind a beamer on repeat heal is rewarding micro?

[mortal fossil]

Yeah, if you opponent does not kill them with some arty or other units, by set target or manually fire. Turrets being there in the first place to hold against greater mass of units. Thats why they are static. Also 10 res bots = 5 more beamers.

If you have 10 res bots healing a beamer you opponent can do so much. Just get in some alpha dmg. Thats also an option.

[regal swallow]

i mean I turn in to 1v1 and it's just two sides pretending to fight while 20 rez bots grind it out

in other games, the difference between winning and winning hard is better skill
in BAR, the difference between winning and winning hard is rez bots. it's always rez bots

[mortal fossil]

Show me a replay and we can see whether resbots are the only thing. Most games I saw were not only resbots.

[summer rain]

out of curiosity, what kind of lobby do you plat?

ALSO RECLAIMING TREES FOR E IS OP

[mortal fossil]

Resbot,micro ad eco. Resbots are part of the micro. You can remove them, bit than its just one thing less deciding a game.

[mortal fossil]

Small team, ffa, some large team. I got good ratings. Yeah, reclaiming is op. But what is not ? Afus farm ? Exponential eco ?

[regal swallow]

u literally can have shit/mediocre micro with all other unit but good rez bot micro and it will carry you

[mortal fossil]

As I told, I think early game micro is important. Later its macro most of the time.

Dont tell me players do utilize full micro like building walls over and over anyway. They are not capable. Good players do some and stop than. It doesnt make a great difference at some point.

[burnt wigeon]

I was comparing the comparitive ease with which land units can kill land rez bots with how easy sea units can kill rez subs. (t1 sea requires an investment in a destroyer whereas on land scouts/infantry can and do pick off rez bots regularly)

I do believe the rez subs are over costed, I just saw lots of comparisons between rez bots and rez subs stats while ignoring the fact that one of them is much easier to keep alive due to requiring torps/depth charge to kill which I think is important to keep in mind.

I also agree that rez bots could use some tuning, they make heavy reclaim maps unfun for me personally as lots of map makers love to throw reclaim in mid which practically forces a bot open if you want any chance of getting it.

[regal swallow]

I think mid reclaim mid is overrated and is actually interactive

Rez bot just as good on map without reclaim

[burnt wigeon]

Yeah rez bots good on every map.

The mid reclaim I dislike is maps with 1/2k+ in rocks in mid which is absolutely massive and if someone starts bots VS veh the bot player can pretty much get all of it by default and then build their own veh lab and not be behind.

It's more of an issue to me in 1v1/smaller team big map games since in 8v8 it's easy enough to just veh start and tell lane next to you to grab the rocks while you defend with rovers.

[summer rain]

resubmit harder to keep alive due to slower turn/accel/movespeed

also subs can kill them, rezsubs can eat them, com can kill them, cons can make a torp to kill them...etc

[open jackal]

I also really hate how automated rez subs On fight/patrol and roam/manuever get stuck trying to reclaim palm trees.

[summer rain]

anenomes? or land trees?

[open jackal]

Land trees

I was very noob when I posted this, but it's still relevant.

[summer rain]

another reason rez subs are not worth the price

[cloud urchin]

I believe there is a check if you use the smart area reclaim (hovering over metal or energy when doing the circle) for underwater/abovewater. But not for fight/patrol

[open jackal]

Yeah, fight command needs more love.

[summer rain]

bump