#Relay/Beacon as answer to 'most' coop

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gray sphinx
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To quote Drongo:

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This thread is mostly to pick apart these thoughts, and see if this could be part of a viable multi-part solution to coop gameplay for those who would like to see less of it

stable sonnet
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It's not immune to mex leaving, only way to combat mex leaving is to create scenarios where you can contribute to teching without being able to share stuff. Currently you tech by building lab, teching and production is copuled and should be centralised. Thus you naturally want to leave many mexes even if it's slightly inefficient up to i would say losing 1500 metal or so...
ONLY way to combat mex leaving is to decouple teching and production costs so you can cap many mexes and still contribute to teching, mex leaving isn't as opressive as instant sharing and relay system would benefit from mex leaving a lot, it might be enough for pubs but it's obviously abusable and we want to cut edge cases to a resonable level.

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Copy paste from coop problem thread

safe nacelle
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Glad you made a thread on it, I was going too also but was fearful mods would shut it down and merge it with the main topic. It definitely deserves it's own thread as it's a viable solution to fixing a lot of the coop issues with the game, especially issues that are more easily permitted in lobbies (so easy to donate metal, easy to rainbow con, t2 constructor handout being broken etc).

gray sphinx
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I'm much more of a 'just do it until people shut you down' person so xD

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Anyway, things the Relay does not intrinsically solve -

  • Wreckage
  • Active unit reclaim
  • Mex leaving/capping/taking, as mentioned by Meow above
  • lategame commie (Relay is cheap) (also not necessarily a problem)
  • Anything I'm missing?
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Things Relay inherently makes more difficult -

  • Sharing combat units does not appear to be possible. Any units you make, you must therefor bear the apm burden for
  • Anything else?
stable sonnet
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I am not against relay, it's not enough on it's own though, sharing restriction based on building is in my proposal as well

gray sphinx
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Perhaps I also make a thread for wreckage + reclaim ownership

safe nacelle
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What's really important to remember is that this doesn't need to be an "end all be all" solution right now, the changes that come to BAR can be progressive. While there are ways that you can get around the concept of the Relay - the reality is, the harder you make it to coop, the less viable you make those options, the less likely it is that those methods trickle down to everyone else. Of course there will always be players like Jagomu / Trotski who do their best to skirt the rules of the game as much as they can - finding creative ways to work together, and that's okay. It's a game of cat and mouse, and that bridge is crossed when we get to it.

The implementation of the relay solves the powerful, near-mandatory playstyle that occurs at medium-high levels if you wish to be competitive.

  • it stops players sending metal directly to funnel the tech player which is as simple as clicking once on the UI
  • it stops players from doing rainbow constructors - a very easy to achieve donation of constant resources
  • it stops players from handing out T2 before 5 minutes, which essentially skips an entire phase of the game (this single change will be absolutely massive IMO and will be an amazing thing for the meta)
  • it stops players funnelling early build power into a single player via sharing of economic buildings, such as this game https://youtu.be/ymoZFaJ4DnI?si=QS6DtqzazFlRLZN7&t=656

While this isn't everything, already the shake up to the meta that this would provide would be significant.

One thing to note though, is that with such a difference between where we currently are (2900m for lab, 430m for t2 constructor, metal being fed by allies) vs where we will be (2900m for lab, 430m for t2 constructor, 1200m for relay, no metal being fed by allies) that the difference between commie abusers and non-abusers becomes larger. If I have to save for a lab, a T2, and a relay before I can share T2 constructors, I might be getting my relay finished at 8 minutes if I have no assistance. However, if I abuse one of the loopholes below, that numbers comes down to what? 6 minutes? 7mins? etc.

Potential issues and loopholes:
Leaving mex's would still be allowed, such as what happened in this game: https://youtu.be/GxNDF7gTT-c?si=_D_z7s-Cba-I4iC2&t=1947 and would need to be addressed further down the road depending on whether or not it became overwhelming.

You could have players all build excessive amounts of energy and specifically ask them not to build converters, and have the tech player build a lot of converters, which would take them from ~13 m/s to 20-25 m/s on quite a reasonable amount of overflow.

oblique cypress
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u need to disable overflow too if you want to do that the question is this. is BAR genre by itself encourage pooling of resource?

gray sphinx
oblique cypress
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i believe this will remain a hard to solve issue till we fix lobby and population issue.

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in future may we have 2 modes “beyond reason - magical sharing” and “within reason - absolutely zero sharing” 🤞

rain lichen
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I don't think the relays is a good solution, although I like the idea. There's a lot of ways of sending metal, of which some are integral to major parts of the game, in particular the reclaim and resurrection actions. If you allow reclaim and resurrection of friendly units (or wrecks), you would have a loophole that will become the meta at the highest level. Removing them drastically changes the game though.

gray sphinx
rain lichen
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That would solve that part of the equation. It's a very big chance though.

I do like the idea of having more t2 factories out, but locking down resource sharing requires that it's locked down completely without any loopholes. Otherwise the meta just changes to whatever the loophole is with the relay. Before you try it out. You need to figure out exactly what other ways there are to send metal to an eco position and figure out if the change is desired or not.

gray sphinx
# rain lichen That would solve that part of the equation. It's a very big chance though. I do...

partially. The issue most largely tackled by coop solutions isn't coop itself - it's the fact that coop introduces t2 units way too fast to react to or answer for most of the players in the game. Once the t2 powerspike is dealt with, coop is largely unimportant for most players (high os players will optimize this to death anyway though, so if these solutions are implemented then we'd have to wait a few months to see where and how solutions missed problems)

rain lichen
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Does that matter? If the t2 arrives 5 minutes later, is that going to change a lot? T1 units only still can't effectively fight against T2 units supported by T1 regardless when they come. The issue then seems to be more that there are no T1 units that can skirmish and delay against T2

shrewd dirge
rain lichen
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Imagine this: All metal and unit sharing is stopped but overflow is still present. Instead of sending metal to tech when you have spare, you build solars/wind instead and let it overflow. Tech is the only person with converters.

As a result, your t2 will be to the front much earlier than the enemies T2. Hence, not disabling it, just changes how the metal gets shared to the tech.

stable sonnet
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converter funneling is 100x worse than direct funneling it wouldn't even be a problem imo

safe nacelle
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Correct, I consider it a loophole as outlined in the above post:

You could have players all build excessive amounts of energy and specifically ask them not to build converters, and have the tech player build a lot of converters, which would take them from ~13 m/s to 20-25 m/s on quite a reasonable amount of overflow.

Further relevance is to this point also:

One thing to note though, is that with such a difference between where we currently are (2900m for lab, 430m for t2 constructor, metal being fed by allies) vs where we will be (2900m for lab, 430m for t2 constructor, 1200m for relay, no metal being fed by allies) that the difference between commie abusers and non-abusers becomes larger. If I have to save for a lab, a T2, and a relay before I can share T2 constructors, I might be getting my relay finished at 8 minutes if I have no assistance. However, if I abuse one of the loopholes below, that numbers comes down to what? 6 minutes? 7mins? etc.

I like the idea of taxing overflow by X amount to at the very least make it less viable because people will ABSOLUTELY abuse it. Alternatively, you could just make it so that all resources on the team are excessed rather than overflowed, and once the a relay is up, overflow can be collected and you can overflow to allies. It feels so ugly and complicated but the truth is - while this is a solution its also a bandaid unless you hit everything with it, and there's so much to change - I really don't know if something this drastic will actually work just purely because the changes it requires are so large to so many mechanics.

safe nacelle
stable sonnet
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for 1000 overflow you need 4000 metal of winds, just to increase 15m/s which is equivalent of 2 T2 mexes which cost 1280 metal...

safe nacelle
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They happily justify the drain of the rainbow constructor being for the greater good, don't think they won't demand people make extra winds for them to convert their E too.

stable sonnet
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It won't matter cause it's just better to get T2 mexes instead forcing allies to convert wind, its very very inefficient, you yourself said that inefficiency is way to go when nerfing coop

safe nacelle
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Mmmm. I still think you'll see tech build 8-12 converters and demand people not build any but them (early on) - but I agree. Make it less efficient. Perhaps that becomes default. Only way to know is to implement and test, could be some nice middle ground of T2 Lab -> T2 con -> 2x T2 Amex -> Relay -> Share Constructors etc

rain lichen
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That's the issue. You will still get T2 mexes for the entire team earlier via sharing energy. Building the t2 factory is massively expensive. Besides, you need that energy later as well

stable sonnet
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That might happen, but to overbuild winds just to funnel resources into T2 is not gonna happen, it's very inefficient, only when wind is max it might happen and boost eco tiny amounts, if it's a problem i would concede my point but i doubt it would be

rain lichen
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Every wind you build, will pay its metal to eco in ~3 minutes. Asking everyone to build a few of them extra at the start will get that metal to eco to get T2 out earlier than the other time. Just having it a minute earlier, is already having a large impact.

I would actually even think it would be done easier than sharing metal. After all, the windmills are there for you when you need the energy when going t2 yourself

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Looking at isthmus, wind scaling is already the optimal way to scale metal aside from getting t2 mexes and advanced fusions. Getting a few up and overflowing instead of sending metal back won't be too much trouble.

stable sonnet
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Yeah true... But that's cause you don't want to get all mexes for techer, still might slightly boost techer, i don't have opinion on this im not used to supreme wind

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I think bigger concern is just techer not needing to build 700 metal worth of energy production and recieving overflow so he can start T2 economy faster

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Each minute you don't get T2 mex you are tehnically losing 480 metal, so why convert energy when you can skip producing your own and then imiditately rush T2 lab

gray sphinx
# rain lichen Every wind you build, will pay its metal to eco in ~3 minutes. Asking everyone t...

Thing is, this loophole isnt about asking g people to build e. They do that anyway. Youre asking them not to build converters. But that puts them behind fronts that do build converters.
The mire you expand on that gap, the worse this becomes for the front players in question
5 mjns isn't a lot of time? 5 mins on SI can be the difference between front owning bridge or not. And often IS. Thats a huge amount of time in RTS
5 mins of owning 2 4.0 mex is 1200 metal. With current legion holding both as Omex thats 2400. Even if no legion enabled, thats still 4 Janus or something, or 4 HLT, or a gauntlet

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If that were one player adv that'd be fine, but probably 2 players have that advantage. And during this time there is no t2 to block the push, bc it can't be shared yet

rain lichen
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This already happens now though. Extra metal is send to the geo or tech to get a t2 out quicker. Converters and wind is being build as T2 requires more eco than T1, if one cannot send metal back. You simply don't build those and are still prepared for T2 eco.

The first t2 unit on isthmus, arrives at around the 5-7 minute mark depending on how much metal is send back and what unit it is. Once that T2 is there, most of the T1 becomes unusable.

The metal will be shared a bit slower, but having the T2 there ~30-60 seconds earlier still allows you to push out and regrab the bridge if you lost it.

craggy sedge
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buildings as prerequisites to teching, sharing or slinging resources have been discussed a lot. i've made a thread long time ago with a suggestion to require storages for sharing respective resources. it's not the same idea, it doesn't prolong teching to t2 per se, but what it does is putting more individual costs on everybody that wants to sling resources to the techer.

Both ideas have issues with mex leaving, but honestly, i don't think mex leaving should be addressed. the issue could be analogous to, say, some random RTS preventing you to take minerals or whatever from a nearby base. it's a supremely hard rule and can extinguish many non-standard plays. not sure players would appreaciate such result in the end.

i think building prerequisites are good ideas, fit well in the game (compared to taxes, IMO), don't solve everything, but they solve a lot. it's much more unlikely players would leave mexes and abandon any agency for wins, since most players play for their own enjoyment. just to point out, as someone will, Supreme Isthmus pond making winds for frontlines is not nearly close to leaving all mexes to somebody. You making something for somebody FOR A WHILE is way different to abandoning all agency in the game, and pubs just won't see much mex leaving at all.

At best, a side mex from rainbow laner could in time become a standard techer mex, and some players might consider giving a teammate a mex or two, which is all cool and creative.

vast heath
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This is just low hanging fruit. It’s easy to combat the overflow and direct sharing we have a million ideas. The real issue is loop holes like Mex leaving and reclaim abusing

orchid heath
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Reclaim abuse: ally unit / wreck -> return money to original owner

Mex leaving: remove role maps

vast heath
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I can def see people Mex leaving even on lane maps. Especially something like moonshine

orchid heath
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Yeah it’s not a complete fix but I still think Mex leaving is preferable to slider sharing most of the time in terms of making the game a playable experience

gray sphinx
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I'm kinda meh about mex leaving too. It doesnt seem like nearly as large an issue as the problems the combination of Relay + wreck/reclaim to owner aims to solve. And we can let that shake out over a few months to gather data on the sweaty coopers attempts to find loopholes in that, rather than just sling words around without anything actually happening

safe nacelle
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+1

safe nacelle