#XFactorLive's Community Balance Change

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ruby heart
#

Hello, I have considered your feedback and here are the community balance changes V3.

The goal is to massively improve the overall games balance with little risk. Yes the patch is big, but to improve the balance is to improve all aspects and not to abandon half the units for various reasons.
The balance philosophy is to buff strengths and keep weaknesses, so that all units are unique and fun.
It is made by the community for the community. So with enough support we can make it a reality.
EDIT: this is now V3, and tweakunits is available.
Lemme know of your feedback.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1DnuAe-Ir9tjfyPW9TMy1wRJ89tqt00zJ?usp=sharing

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meager raven
#

I suggest those small refinements :

Hound : LOS 500
T2 aa bots : 1100 range & airLos
Spybots : 12 000 BP

ruby heart
valid schooner
#

I'm a bit concerned about the incisor/pawn/blitz but want to see it/test it before actually feedback there as the balance is very knifes edge.

Imo pounder losing 15 with nothing to compensate won't be good. Coupled with incisor and car nerf core t1 veh seems like it will feel quite weak.

I think t2 trans balance isn't good currently (especially since you can't transport multiple units anymore) and while I get nerfing speed for Com drop reasons, I don't feel equalizing hp and speed while leaving abductor with stealth and emp laser while sky hook now has nothing unique for what amounts to a minor cost difference for t2 air is good.

Skyhook value was always bad compared to abductor but at least it had a niche of being the transport with the most hp, I think abductor would need a significant e cost increase or Skyhook should get a minor hp/speed bump above abductor.

Most other changes I want to try out before yapping too much.

hollow sonnet
#

I almost never see pounder spam, it just doesn't work. On any map where unit movement speed matters. Besides, if you're going to nerf pounder range then you should nerf centurion range as well.

#

I do not think that banisher needs a range nerf that significant, the only necessary change is an area behind it that it cannot shoot, like 270 degree firing arc

ruby heart
night iris
#

marauder not weak right？

ruby heart
hollow sonnet
#

The only reason pounders get that much value is because of light units...

ruby heart
night iris
#

yes marauder afraid spam ticks，but I think it's a way to limit his balance

ruby heart
hollow sonnet
hollow sonnet
ruby heart
#

tbh centurion never was really op. apparently some bug appeared causing them to have more range then they should. now they fixed it. so i guess we need to see how the centurion actually developes. maybe people discovered something. or maybe it back to where it was befoore

ruby heart
hollow sonnet
night iris
#

i think centurion need nerf his los.for example，350 to 300

valid schooner
#

I'm like 90% sure pounder only meta because incisor is meta.

Stout janus or cent can be just as annoying as pounder brute with delaying game end and isn't as susceptible to dgun.

ruby heart
hollow sonnet
night iris
#

Based on my current version testing, I think the 100dps Blitz will defeat the Incisor in a 1v1 battle.1blitz vs 1incisor

hollow sonnet
#

Yeah incisor is more expensive, it needs to have greater dps

night iris
#

and low speed :/

ruby heart
#

well in current game version they do not even trade close to incisor. basically it is an automatic loss. so i think the gap is wide enough that this 2 changes will not make blitz op. maybe they are close now, maybe incisor still stronger, maybe blitz somehow stronger (but i think this is lowest chance). in any case blitz will have more trouble vs pawn and grunt than incisor will have.

hollow sonnet
night iris
#

Maybe I think you should choose one of them to adjust，buffing blitz or nerfing incisor，its better

ruby heart
hollow sonnet
ruby heart
#

I alr remove incisor speed nerf so I predict incisor to still be top 1 unit of all 4 with current change

#

also blitz need buff to not lose vs pawn super hard. that is also to consider

hollow sonnet
#

We also need to figure out just how much value shiva's should get versus razorbacks. Because after some 2/3 of a shiva's army value in razorbacks, the razors can micro and single out the shivas like centurions versus thugs. We need to be sure we aren't nerfing shiva's unnecessarily or too much.

Just lower pawn DPS but make it more accurate.

night iris
#

yes 900hp too more

ruby heart
night iris
#

razorback can anti spam，but shiva afraid it

ruby heart
#

tho razer has speed need to always remember

valid schooner
#

Do you already have the tweak ready for testing? Could yap all day but feel like 1v1 testing would be much quicker answer on the t1 balance.

hollow sonnet
ruby heart
#

well unfortunately someone made big patch so tweak will take a bit xd

ruby heart
solemn drum
#

Good stuff, just fyi zecrus has nerfed lolcannon in a patch already and it has been pretty bad since then, just better to do berthas spam + the shield rework that will remove op range extansion when it goes live.
So i feel if you go 2x metal cost it's best to just undo the zecrus patch which would be better coz zecrus nerfed lolcannon way too hard and 2x cost has already been tested

ruby heart
timid helm
solemn drum
#

i don't have link, it's in the ingame patch notes, i think it's like 6 months old or whatever

ruby heart
#

tho ye mostly lol cannon always been to just snipe base

solemn drum
#

so im guessing there is going to be tweaks to revert the future official patches?

ruby heart
#

well goal is to have balanced game. if patch makes it worse then sure. but for now need to make tweak and even see if this gets support

night iris
#

can we buffing juggernaut make it more hp？

ruby heart
hollow sonnet
#

You could switch the price of the juggernaut and behemoth lol

valid schooner
#

imo jugg maybe small speed tweak, maybe lower shotgun dps but increase fire rate, maybe faster turn rate. I don't personally think hp will do anything to make jugg feel better

solemn drum
#

devs wanted to add aoe attack around jugg feets to kill all the spam but apparently it's too hard to do sadly

night iris
valid schooner
ruby heart
night iris
#

Alternatively, we could also enhance the value of the Jugg's back missile—similar to how it's done in TA—as its effectiveness currently seems negligible. We could give it a faster reload speed and a quicker turning rate so that it can better counter air units.

ruby heart
#

doesnt he counter air by death?

night iris
#

You can't expect a unit to rely solely on its destruction to counter aerial threats xdd

#

legion have aagun，but jugg die to air rip

valid schooner
#

Isn't the chaining issue more of an issue with normal death explosion being mini nuke than with jugg hp? Why not just reduce the non self-d death explosion damage/aoe maybe paired with small reduction to self d timer so it's a bit easier to time manually. (And yeah Ikreist that's why I brought up in TA jugg could hit air with missiles)

night iris
#

in bar，jugg missiles can hit air,but reload time toooo long

valid schooner
#

Yeah ig I should re-word, missiles were useful against air, they had much faster rof.

ruby heart
#

Community balance changes

lean sky
#

As long as t2 com trans exists jugg will be shit. It’s just too hard to defend vs it

timid helm
lean sky
timid helm
#

You are acting like it's a common occurrence, I think it's more of a niche situation

limpid light
#

I think many of these changes are in the correct direction, but there are a few nitpicks coming from 8v8 balance and also general nitpicks as well, like why give Tzar (a more expensive t2 unit) less HP than the fatboy (when both those units fill the same role but are already pretty different) should the rolling ttank that costs more metal really need an HP nerf?
Like Tzar's main strength is shooting faster than fatboy and moving in straight lines faster but I feel like changing its HP like that doesn't accomplish stopping a rushed tzar easier it just makes them worse for no reason, given the main way to stop a tzar push is to dgun it or kill it with long range static defense (which admittedly this change does help with the later).
Ideally, other than the aoe changes for fatboy, then fatboy should get a similar treatment for the same reasons (yes I know fatboy movement is slower and clunky and thus it is harder to push with but still I feel like a more expensive t2 vehicle shouldn't end up with less HP than its t2 bot counterpart)

#

Also a few small ones, abductors shouldn't see an HP buff if they keep their EMP, and skyhook movespeed nerf should be enough even with its original HP, and I wouldn't want to see changes that big to the t2 transports without seeing how movespeed nerfs alone help the situation.

Would love to see the spybot and t2 AA bot changes

night iris
#

The adjustments to the Tzar and Banisher were expected. While the Cort2 is indeed strong in 1v1 and small team engagements, it performs relatively poorly in 8v8 matches, especially from the mid to late game onward. How can we nerf its early game dominance while compensating for its weakness in the mid to late game of T2?

buoyant grove
hollow sonnet
#

maybe make the juggernaut missile a stronger version of the banisher rocket? idk

timid helm
#

Tac missile?

sinful grotto
#

It should be noted that the balance team had kept the Sprinter's HP below 750 on purpose citing it as a key break point. Past 750 HP units can survive heavy shots like from fatboys and such

ruby heart
hollow zealot
#

What do you think of rebalancing sumo so that it has half the damage but shoots twice as fast? (so DPS is unchanged, but it can better deal with ticks and the like, something that compared to its counterparts in arm/legion I find sumo struggles with)

ember pilot
#

I don't think increasing the metal costs of Calamity and co. is a good idea. You need massive build power and about 6 dedicated AFUs to actually run it.
If it becomes so expensive as suggested, nobody will ever build it.

ruby heart
ruby heart
errant verge
#

Can you point me out to the change that made ellysaw fire sideways please?
It was "forward" rather than sides for years so i'm doubtful of that affirmation. Dolphin is the one that i designed sideways.
I also pointed out that it was a missed commit issue that allowed riptide to be 3% faster. So i entirely do agree with the direction.
I'm not entirely for a range nerf of corpship range though. I believe ellysaw being faster should be enough as a v1 change. You can maybe keep the range change as an opt additional change if it's still not enough ?

[[Edit: no real change there, main dir is front but the firing arc is 290 degrees (mb got buffed at some point) so it mostly covers both sides yeah, i call it "front" but its not untrue to say it mostly benefits from the sides. Xhereas dolphins sweet spots are smaller and exclusively on the sides]]

ruby heart
#

V3 is online, with tweakunits. Most things were implemented, as well as heavy trans nerf. lol cannon combat increase and emp launcher nerf is not in there yet, as this needs some extra thought. (See first message to see patch or download tweak)

buoyant grove
#

#1449090060199919656 message

bronze hill
#

@whole condor @timber grail this thread and set of changes Xfactor proposed might be interesting to you to read through, if you haven't already

ocean dove
#

This patch is a bit large...but not gonna lie, this would be a net positive for overall balance. Ex LRPCs, t2 trans...and a lot of the others are spot on. 👌

whole condor
#

I'll have a proper examination later but I'm getting deja vu from a lot of this. However holistic view matters, eg banisher nerf cripples the t2 veh lab further, it has very poor long range and banisher is the current crutch

ocean dove
#

Only thing missing from this more all encompassing approach is fixing the cost of the Jug. It should basically never be built currently. Cost decrease to make it more viable? 24k? Although weapon tweaks might be a cooler change.

whole condor
#

Shiva balance is also only dominant top level, lower down it's a bloody liability. Demon is a glass cannon but also needs water mobility back, to give t3 sea core some projection. Even then it suffers as maras appear sooner and handle dguns better. Juggernaut is fundamentally broken balance wise currently, it only remotely shines super late game , and usually game long decided before then

errant verge
#

About the fattie
Wouldn't it be more desirable to keep what makes it particularily good and exagerrate its weaknesses via an even longer travel time (slower speed -> more infra recquired to get it online on front + more ways to counter it through sheet speed) and/or longer reaim times (slower turnrate and turret turnrate) ?

I feel the new edgeeffectiveness of 0.15 makes the damages drop too much at the radius units are usually shot at.
I'd actually even say lower damages but keep the edgeeffectiveness might be good to try.

whole condor
#

Honestly the real buff demon needs is volumetric fire, not actually being a pawn on steroids

errant verge
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At some point i wanted to register avg unit density and total damages per shot to monitor tzar and fattie. That might maybe help finetuning if we can compare both with previous versions.

whole condor
#

The patch also probably focuses a little much on one side of the coin, eg instead of decreasing something slightly op, increase a weakness instead, or buff the natural game counter. The easy, safe route to balance results in a whole load of bland units without niches, which feel unfun to play

#

Dood: at some point we should discuss proper metrics for differential balance. Borg had some ideas once but that was very big picture and not specific to notable culprits. Actual data could help us a lot

buoyant grove
junior lake
#

Welp, it's qualified. All that's left is to get a thumbs up from one (and no thumbs down from) @deep quiver @ancient kite @little oracle showing interest in adding this as an experimental Community Balance Patch modoption

timber grail
# bronze hill <@715871955110330389> <@472710691359293462> this thread and set of changes Xfact...

Thank you for the heads up Zephyr!

So far as I can see in the doc, most of the changes are already present in an analogous power (Sala has small regen in AMBR while here it's just +200hp; Tiger in AMBR can shoot air but 300 less hp while here it's 3 less speed; the Riptide nerfs...) or an exactly identical one. Like Blitz having precisely 100dps in both mods.
-# Although for me the Blitz also has 190 range but it is because the Incisor was unchanged because too much community was not looking up for it getting a change... I was planning to get it have slightly less dps, since after I fixed the issue that caused Alaris swarms to have abnormally large survivability vs lasers despite the math disagreeing, Incisors now properly obliterate them, but vanilla balance already will have a change for it soon.
Blitz still has good old 99 speed though.

I moreso focus on Quality changes, having things appear as they should be... Something that's logical, the when you look at unit and it has a prdicatable property. Like Mantis having 4800hp, because it's humongous, instead of 1400hp, and other large artillery units. Even the fixes for legion's tracks marks. Visual stuff, maybe some sound changes...
Hereby resulting in a huge discrepancy where Tzar here is turned into a brittle support mortar, while in AMBR it's a true very heavy tank with 10800hp, although it fires HESH projectiles instead of normal splash, making it a middleground between Mammoth (15600hp pinpoint laser dps) and Fatboy (7300hp big splash with 90% edging)... and has slower projectile speed, and marginally higher BP cost than Tremor, so far in v0.10.5. Means a Gunslinger easily solo's the Tzar thanks to dodging and low AoE damage of HESH projectiles that do most of the damage in precise hit.
Because Poison Arrow instead takes the role of "T2 Pounder" (just like website says), with old 29k E cost and huge 29900 BP cost (as per protocol for t2 tanks buildable in amphibious lab), but 80% edging (and cool effect)

#

Plus the fact that the t1-t2 amphitanks and hovertanks were buffed overall to be just slightly less useful than ground vehicles, hopefully comparable to Bots in strength. So that they're comparable in usefulness and userate to t3 amphibs, the Marauders and whatever.
well, alright, the hovertanks still suck, they're supposed to be worse than amphitanks. But they're far better than in vanilla and it matters.

Amphibious tanks (plus Triton) still have very low LoS like it was in earlier vanilla, refusing the recent change that made them have 500LoS. So that they're less autonomous (aka lowskill) for raiders that cannot be surprised, if PArrow was to have more than 385 LoS it too would benefit too well.

@ruby heart me being a guy who like 80% of the time plays Hoverstart (thanks to lab having reduced BP cost etc) in AMBR community balance patch, increasing the range on Halberd is a HUGE MISTAKE.
Especially with it's cursed hitbox that refuses to get fixed by any means. All I was able to do (in latest versions) is slightly reduce it's accelerations so that at least it's (in numeric aesthetics) not being copied by Cardea.

night iris
#

20blitz VS 18incisor(same cost)

image.png image.png image.png
ruby heart
junior lake
#

@ruby heart can you retitle this "XFactorLive's Community Balance Change"

ruby heart
#

XFactorLive's Community Balance Change

buoyant grove
night iris
ruby heart
buoyant grove
night iris
#

yes xd，but i think its fine because armlab have ticks and centurion

buoyant grove
#

Why do you think the balance team did not feel the same way as we all did?

ruby heart
#

depending on micro outcome can be like this.... 18 inc vs 20 blitz

image.png
night iris
ruby heart
#

and here i set 18 incisor go afk... and i used all my power as xfactor and i lost with blitz xD

image.png image.png
#

but fights are way way more fair now than before, its big difference

buoyant grove
#

The results are pretty close from the photos you both are sending so it definitely seems to be good change. Still needs the proper highlevel tests though

night iris
limpid light
# errant verge About the fattie Wouldn't it be more desirable to keep what makes it particulari...

I think fatboy doesn't even really need much of a nerf unless its HP or edge effectiveness similar to the tzar, at least in regards to large team games. Players been building it a lot more because the role it fills is good and if it isn't properly answered it can secure a frontline, rather than it outclassing everything. Up until a few months ago it was kinda considered a meme unit or a noob trap, and all I wanna see done to it is be given at least the same edge effectiveness treatment of the tzar and possibly either HP decrease or BT increase so that its more difficult to keep up at full HP into other units. But generally speaking right now, it does move and turn very slowly so exagerating that will likely just make the unit useless whereas nerfing it slightly will keep it and tzar in a useable spot in 8v8. Outside of 8v8 they both strong units but tzar is used more in 1v1 and small team games cuz core vehicles are a bit better in those scenarios rather than something like arm bots which are better in 8v8 and on wind maps cuz of butlers, anti nuke bot, and sniper+welder still being a good enough answer to lots of problems.

timid helm
#

Riptides got nerfed way too much. The decrease in range made it almost impossible to push without the opponent making a mistake. The turret in the back justifies a range decrease but a 30 one.

errant verge
# timid helm Riptides got nerfed way too much. The decrease in range made it almost impossibl...

What is the expected result of those 3 changes (riptide speed and range and ellysaw speed).
What riptide should be good at ? What of the ellysaw ?

I'm thinking you could play with ellysaw proj speed instead.
The faster the projectile the less it gets range "boost" or "nerf" from movements.
Since its supposedlythe one with the upper end in chasing its counterpart (higher speed, full dps aiming on front), maybe pushing this further with higher proj speed so more dynamic range frontwar and less range backward would work ?
And you dont actually lower the riptide range, so its not any worst in defending itself ?

#

The advantage of that would be that the bonus range would actually only exist when moving, in its advantageous situation, while it would be gone when static.

timid helm
errant verge
#

Going forward at enemy's maxSpeed, your proj land at max range after teavelling at projspeed. So your effective range frontward would look like maxRange - (projSpeed/maxRange) * maxSpeed

So i guess you could manipulate projSpeed and riptide maxSpeed to create that 30 elmos range adjustment only when chasing.

#

Kk so we indeed are talking about a scenario where riptide is being chased. So i think that aligns with what i have in mind.
Going from 300 to 450 proj speed you should effectively gain ~ 40 range when chasing a riptide at full speed.
And lose 40 range when being chased in counterpart, all the while the static matchup would be unchanged.

#

There might be the side effect of ellysaw hitting a little more often, i think it's fine ? Would have to check against corvs though.

ruby heart
#

from our testing today seems like balance is good. t1 can play anything pretty much. t2 core and arm bot is pretty viable.

#

sea sample size is still too low to say anything

errant verge
#

Yeah it's always harder to get sufficient data here.
And those supreme games are rather bad for that as it's also very "unbalanced" by the map settings and os diffs.
The only way would be testing on paradise lost 1v1 or some flooded maps 3v3 - 5v5 but hard to get players to play those...

#

I'd be willing to test different settings if you'd wish, but i'm not nearly as skilled as others so you might also be biased by the os diff. Unless you find someone to match me.

spring berry
buoyant grove
#

👆#1449090060199919656 message

Time to deploy the balance consultants to get stuff tested properly, dont you think?

whole condor
junior lake
#

@whole condor is your computer undeaded yet

spring berry
#

On bright side at least now I can play arm in every game mode instead of just 8v8, now I will never have to worry about remembering core units again

whole condor
junior lake
errant verge
whole condor
#

Which is also a problem tbh, core can't be "the sea faction"

buoyant grove
whole condor
#

No faction should be clearly best at any entire arena

errant verge
#

Oh there is a real question there i wanted to ask tbh.
Rn its not better at every sea, but the destroyer hp and aoe makes it vastly better in rivers settings such as 7 rivers.
Do we accept that it's inherently better in some maps and not in others?
Or do we want perfect equality among the different settings?
Rn i dont feel armada is weak on larger maps. Just useless on small maps, where it wont actually be able to benefit from its better/faster expansion phase.

ruby heart
#

some unit choice or lab choice is just better for some maps, this is also a strategical aspect of the game. ofc the goal is to make that this advantage is not too severe, but it is unavoidable. on same maps some units strengths just shine more.

timid helm
timid helm
buoyant grove
whole condor
timid helm
whole condor
buoyant grove
#

We have to be talking about the same ammount of cost in the armies tested. It doesnr matter if it is cheaper, we are talking about cost/performance

timid helm
#

If cost is the same, Armada wins 9/10 times, on open battlefield

buoyant grove
#

That what the testing is for, get it tested amongst the best sea players doing the 2 arm 2 cor encounters for different metal budgets and lets get it balanced

Who are the best sea players? Make up the list I wouldnt know

timid helm
#

In a river setting cor is superior because their ships are stronger unit for unit, but they couldn't compete with arm with these balance changes

buoyant grove
timid helm
buoyant grove
#

Pretty sure they can be pinged to the thread if people agree that they are the amonst the very best overall players to request their help with testing

timid helm
#

I sadly don't really have the time to test this week so I can't organize it ):

errant verge
#

Also with cheaper and faster subs and destroyers, armada can really hit metal extractors where cortex is a little behind and with skaters, can defend its exp cons alittle better. So any map with open mexes and a slow mex progression tends to favor armada.
Isthmus on the other hand tends to favor cortex at least on the cove.
Id say armada beach is pretty legit but still a little behind.

timid helm
#

I'm not at all knowledgeable about isthmus specific strategies so I'm going to take your word for it

errant verge
#

Dont take it for granted thats really just my view of it. Some players like apex do consistently win geo sea as armada and i'm unsure they'd exactly share that opinion.

As for the idea that some factions have specific units that simply work better under vertain maps. Its mostly true at t2-t3 but with sea we're mostly dealing with t1 and solo lanes so no real cross-faction possibility.

timid helm
whole condor
#

Balance isn't specific to any one map and isthmus in particular has some interesting quirks that make it poor for sea vs sea analysis, however, broadly yes, arm are better on open sea and core are better on closer waters. The issue is that most water maps are close waters, actual seas are relatively rare

#

I'd cautiously expand that to the same for land too, eg if core can stand and fight, arm have more issues than otherwise. (Arm do however also have the best tools for unpicking walls,mobile or otherwise)

buoyant grove
timid helm
buoyant grove
# 
armsub = {
            speed = 66,
            health = 950,
            metalcost = 420,
            maxacc = 0.0658,
            turnrate = 575,
            sightdistance = 460,
            sonardistance = 460,
            weapondefs = {
            torpedo = {
                        reloadtime = 2.7,
                        range = 450,
                        damage = {
                                default = 260,
                        },
                    },
            },
            weapons = {
            [1] = {
                        maxangledif = 130,
                    },
            },
        },
        corsub = {
            metalcost = 480,
            energycost = 3600,
            sightdistance = 400,
            sonardistance = 400,
            weapondefs = {
            torpedo = {
                        reloadtime = 3,
                        damage = {
                                default = 380,
                        },
                    },
            },
        },
valid schooner
#

Anyone have the replays from the testing to take a look at? Specifically I'm interested in replays which highlight incisor/grunt/pawn/blitz interactions.

buoyant grove
#

Yeah, do post them please

ruby heart
buoyant grove
#

That seems very thorough, good effort 😀

ruby heart
#

eh its still not enough info, to actually fully test this patch requires like probably 100 games. 8v8 games and played by different players

whole condor
#

Also 4v4 and 1v1, 8v8 is a balance extreme and communism throws it a lot

ruby heart
#

ye i just mentioned 8v8, because we did some 1v1 and small teams, its a bit harder to get 16 people

buoyant grove
errant verge
#

But Fx are dead 🙁

ruby heart
whole condor
#

Angel crossing is a good map for testing

valid schooner
# ruby heart

Thank you! I'll watch these when I get home later.

night iris
junior lake
hollow sonnet
# night iris <@404346452861779979>

I agree with most of the stuff you said in the .txt, imo we should only change the incisor range by 10, anything more seems too drastic imo

#

I think the tiger should slow down a bit. It is so much faster than bulls, it's not competitive for large maps.

latent crag
#

probably gonna hop on on a lobby to test this tomorow

night iris
hollow sonnet
night iris
night iris
#

cort1ship（riptide）“reducing”change to“roll back”

timid helm
#

Yay

timber grail
hollow sonnet
timber grail
hollow sonnet
#

I'm referring to common sense 🤣

No one is making a poison arrow or turtle for the frontline and going to get good value from it.

hollow sonnet
timber grail
#

Someone in a match tried to argue with me on how flanking system works because they referred to whatever the site said, something something "flanking triggers with every hit"
instead of how I said it with explanation on how this 3d vector is being offset per each "hit" with the 5 second reset rule as even demonstrated by /debugcolvol coloured hitboxes, and how it has a significant start weight as also seen by an example Rippsy have recorded on a video.
(That guy with flanking nonsense also later accused me of making a gamemode "too balanced")

timber grail
timber grail
hollow sonnet
#

Well hello there, I'm a slave to playing optimally because that's the way the game is designed. When people say "I don't follow the meta" I hear they intentionally troll in circumstances where they could help out their teammates.

The 'meta slaves' are people just playing optimally. If you want to prove otherwise then I'll be glad to witness it.

The common sense is to not talk about irrelevant units when the direct counterpart is used by 99% of the player base because they actually get value. But nooooooooo we have to break free from the meta slaves who refused to play suboptimally because they want to win so badly.

In all seriousness though, I do see what you mean by having aoe and stats. However, practically speaking the speed for those amphibious tanks is so low that they practically do not counter each other, and any claim that they are better than the meta just because they are out of the meta is a delusion.

While the stats might come a bit closer, the definition of counterpart is based on the role of the unit, and because the role of the tiger and turtle cannot both be used as raiders for the same purpose, they do not counter each other as much as the bull and tiger do.

On a t2 frontline you will almost never see turtles and poison arrows because they are just not practical long term. Defining that as being a meta slave is just so silly to me.

timber grail
#

Oh, my apologies for inaccurate usage of term, I appear to have got inspirationally distracted by Trotski's strats of not "roleplaying" as majority... I moreso meant meta slave lobbies, not meaning to accuse the people themselves having to play the most optimal way. Because I do too, would very much rather play the most optimal way spamming some OP unit, in vanilla lobbies... Which I did find boring and monotonous hence why I now very much avoid these lobbies. Genuinely, sorry for inaccuracy.

#

...
Arguably, after the recent unusual to me balance changes in vanilla the modern day PArrow is now even more similar to Bull, majorly thanks to the obscene LoS buff, making it exactly as autonomous as Bull, which will result in possibility of amphilab PArrow monocomp rush.
Compared to old one with 385los.

timid helm
#

You did admit to playing in non standard lobbies, so your experience (and unit choice) would actually differ from the base game.

timber grail
agile agate
timid helm
#

Poison arrows are not a good troop to fight against t2 with, they are a t1 killer only. They are way to expensive to trade against t2.

timber grail
agile agate
timid helm
timber grail
#

And the respectable balance patches normally avoid changing unit roles anyway.

timid helm
#

They are not counter parts, parrow is 1.5x cost for less combat ability

timber grail
timid helm
#

PArrow will never be a counterpart to bull, that's just not in the unit design

timber grail
#

The cannon does the work. And now the large LoS too.
It is the counterpart to Bull as much as Halberd is counterpart to Sumo!
As much as Cardea is counterpart to (og) Phalanx!

#

...Armida doesn't have a heavy lightning hovertank as a counterpart to Welder though. Too bad.

buoyant grove
#

To be clear, this parrow being the bull counterpart thingy is nonsense. I had a guy, which I wont name, telling me several times that the webber is the fiend counterpart and not the sprinter.

The parrow is just an underused unit that is too good for the price. It actually does need a nerf because the values are crazy. It is just the tzar is soo good that due to Bteam neglect that people didnt pick up on it.
The task now is to bring it in line with its own category cost performance whilst keeping the identity.

#

Will be doing some testing later, would be nice if anyone 40+ joined to help make a fair assesment of this patch.

agile agate
timber grail
#

The reason PArrow numbers ended up shooting up in vanilla, besides the massive LoS buff, is due to one of the miscellaneous factors known as "turret very slow"

Causes the usage skill to be increased.

Just like Arquebus, this 900m 18000E sheldon but one that does everything, at the only cost of having to care for slow turret.

Else: skill issue

buoyant grove
charred wasp
#

Thermite

#

Omg t1 sea changes my beloved

buoyant grove
valid schooner
#

In t2 I don't feel that direct counterpart comparisons even make sense since every faction is totally different in that phase.

Bulls and tigers both are the main tonk for their respective factions but they fill very different roles just like banisher and starlight or Sheldon and sniper etc.

bleak bramble
#

Can just make t2 trans slower while carrying com? That's the ideal solution imo, tho it's not urgent as t2 trans will always have a use even if lackluster.

nocturne thistle
#

How many times are going to nerf commander trans

hollow zealot
#

By 2030, Commanders will be transported using T3 transports
Actually can we get T3 transports in the game please

void jewel
bleak bramble
ocean dove
#

We can just remove com trans all together and that would but a W

timid helm
#

Then how would I move around on acid quarry?

ocean dove
night iris
#

@ruby heart I've turned them into tweaks, making a few more adjustments compared to the last suggestions,the changes aren’t too significant. I think it’ll turn out great.we can do some testing if we have opportunity

📎 tweakby_Ikreist.txt 📎 tweakunits.txt
quiet pewter
#

These changes seem pretty good. It’s really impressive how you put an explanation for every unit. Thank you for putting so much effort/detail into this.

bleak bramble
#

agree, very appreciated to put note beside every change. It shows the creator's perception and intended effect.

bleak bramble
ruby heart
#

After christmas will do v4 with changes. Then I expect v5 to take a month or something (unless hot fix needed). Its so that we get the variation down and the patch becomes stable

#

Tho thinking about it, we might need a revert official update patch xdd, if its bad

bleak bramble
#

i think hound + weapon velocity is better change, but can test simple vision range buff. vision range makes them easy to use but also has all the same problems with getting dodged.
you can use webbers with it for vision. webbers are a little pricey but if you win an skirmish it quickly pays for itself.

timber grail
valid schooner
#

Small teams xfactor patch testing this weekend?

deep quiver
#

And proposals with tens of different, unrelated changes aren't that productive. Should break it down into parts and pitch each thing individually.

Not that you can't test several things at once to speed things up, but those separate things should be agreed on first.

Half the changes being similar or in conflict with the S3 patch means it's hard to make use of. If you think this Tzar nerf is better than that Tzar nerf (etc), make the case for that specifically.

ruby heart
#

I didnt really keep up with the adjusted s3 patch changes. Will look at it some days later again.

and regarding this patch in here. Its sole goal is to create a balanced game. It was never made as a convenient suggestion to cut pieces out.

Another goal is to have immediate solutions, not post pone 100 forgotten issues since top 5 most broken ones are too much attention grabbing

azure rune
timid helm
whole condor
azure rune
#

Idk you said that no faction should be better so why core air is obviously way better

whole condor
#

It shouldn't be better. That it IS is a game flaw. Core sea is a 'usually better' however it is somewhat somewhat arguable that is a map issue more than faction, as water bodies tend to be small which favours core

whole condor
# deep quiver And proposals with tens of different, unrelated changes aren't that productive. ...

This is true sometimes until it's not. As with the original balance pack, problems interrelate and fixing one often obligates fixing the one further down the chain that is now 'exposed'.

Balance is holistic. However it is key that any balance pack of any sort works with the S3 changes, or if there's a really good reason not to, explicitly undoes them so it can be used with or without the test option on and still get useful results, rather than differing double changes to same units.

deep quiver
#
  • Difference between Highwind / Nighthawk
  • T2 arty being too strong
  • Crawling bombs being too strong
    Etc etc

Are still mostly not interrelated, even when overall faction balance and factory balance are always slightly affected.

Grunt/incisor/pawn/blitz are an example of one system that needs to be considered together and changes to llt, cent, scouts... All can affect them too.

Specific problems, however big or small, should still be first defined and after that, a fix proposed. This also allows for others to brainstorm better ways to fix the problem, in a way where people are hopefully on the same page of what the issue is.

deep quiver
#

T2 arty is example where there's a ton of variety in how people view them. There was a good amount of discussion abt them in balance forum but no agreement was reached. Timings and other units will be changed with s3 regardless, so we'll see what kind of role t2 arty will settle into in that environment.

Firstly how good building them currently in various scenarios is, exactly.
And also difference in opinion, of how strong they should be - arguably it's a unit that should be a primary target to rush in tight lanes, because it's firstly it's a unit that can't push super fast ( not as game defining as a tzar or such can be), and because the rush situation is kinda the only role it has, it isn't a lategame unit.

And even if we get an agreement that they should be changed (to be weaker or to have a different role), there's a lot of options how to do that.
Ofc debating that a lot, is slower than just choosing to raise the mcost and be done with it, but ideally the longer brewed change will result in a better change longterm that doesn't need adjusting again in the next patch as trends change.

deep quiver
#

For t2 figs difference, for example, the basic issue is pretty clear: the cortex fig is just a bit better in basically all circumstances.

But how to fix that, there's 2 basic options: nerf Nighthawk or buff Highwind. But then do you want to make them more different, or just bring the stats closer together?
And at the same you could consider how good t2 figs should be in comparison to other forms of aa. Then the scope can ofc start increasing and increasing, and looking at all aa, or even all air holistically, might be the ideal solution... But also much harder to get it all together compared to a simple cost change.
So a small interim fix can be in order since it can be deployed quickly.

But for small issues it's usually not critical either to get them in asap, small differences in efficiency rarely make games play clearly worse. And there's some value also in stability, that ppl are familiar w the stats of units.

night iris
errant verge
#

Big boom alone prolly isn't enough to make it worth.
I wonder what would happen if it was either a little faster, or more heavily armored, at the cost of some laser dps (but keep the splash cannons damages ==). More armored would tend to be a copypaste of the walking turret though.
Also i remember them being better at switching target, the aim script seems to slow them down alot in that regard (for the shotgun like cannons i mean)?
Maybe a "buff" can be done by tolerating more aim offset? It's low accuracy splash damages anyway so it doesnt make sense to expect perfect alignment.

night iris
#

Also, Juggernaut's shotgun has some aiming issues. Generally speaking, most large T3 units have this problem, which often causes them to fail to fire.

errant verge
#

Maybe fixing that aiming issue first then figuring out if there still needs a buff should be the way to go then.
Past experiences have shown adding buffs to fixes is bad for the community and devs health :p (cf BA 9.46->10 veh speed buff)
I suspect we need the accel based turret anims to be more permissive on the curheading vs wtd heading checks.
I've seen that happen on titans aswell, it does feel weird. But titans dont rely as much on those blasters as juggs rely on their shotgun i guess. So i expect better jugg vs titans matchup 8f you fix it for both.

night iris
#

Do you think Juggernaut's back missiles are actually useful?

#

If the targeting issues can be fixed, I think it would be great, but at the same time, I also believe that Juggernaut needs a buff to its back missiles and health points

timber grail
#

You heard the community right, roll back the roller skates feet buff back down to 34.3 speed in turn beefing up the armament, alike the other branch.

But on serious note, the earlier vanilla speed buff is already a buff to Breakthrough score (HP*Speed) which is especially sensitive to hazardous unitdeaths.

#

Just... A bit of a lame buff. As all cost, speed, and even the health changes are: lame.

errant verge
#

A mechanic that bar barely uses is manual fire on mobile units besides comm.
I think experimental units having manual fire weapons would be a fun one.
I had already experimented some special slow effects on torps.
Some special abilities for the rarely spammed but epic units could be something interesting to dive into.

For the casuals it gives the impression of an even more epic unit.

For the more skilled/op players it opens up combination of special skills, crafting the best ways to use those special skills in coordination.

If this kind of stuff was accepted i think i'd actually want either the shot gun or the backpack missiles become some manual fire weapon that apply a defined effect. Ie slow, burn, unhealable, hijack chance, w/e.
Not overwhelming that bar evolves around it, but just enough that you'd want to combine some special effects as team for op results (same way we used to spy selfd into nuke)

#

So yeah, i think if just fixing the aiming is not enough and spicing things up is wanted, i'd set eyes on the missiles or shotgun as the next thing to tweak/play with to make itinteresting.

ruby heart
#

jugg has combat wise no use compared to behemoth. behemoth is so strong it can 1v3 juggs while costing less. juggernauts main abilities are nuke and ability to traverse water as well as better mobility.

so the most logical to buff is the speed to be able to nuke easier, the hp to also be able to nuke easier, or make its nuke actually do ton of damage, however that increases also team damage.

vagrant sonnet
errant verge
#

Back in the days i was told that aswell.
Things like that worked for unbacom or evocom but i guess they're not really wanted besides commander.

I think its still the common opinion. But i haven't talked about it lately so i dunno.

During those years there has been iterations of special effects: napalm, lightning effects, splitting projectiles...
So maybe the opinion shifted on that matter?

vagrant sonnet
#

They're weapons that are slightly more complex than your basic plasma ball, but they're not special abilities the player has to know and use, I don't see the similarity.

errant verge
#

But there is one. You do have to know how lighntning works because that will grant you an advantage at a higher level.
Maybe you mean the difference is in the suggestion for a manual fire vs automated targetting of those lightning or napalm units.
Yes that differs but also we're already used to ie setting unit on hold fire and manually target we already do it.
The main difference there is jugg has multiple weapons and we want those other weapons to keep autotargetting.
Maybe there could be a normal weapon with the ability to set this particular wpn on hold fire ?
So the default setting would be the weapon targetting by itself but you could manage to give it particular targets and avoid wasting shots.

W/e
I'm not convinced enough about that idea that i'd make a strong point out of it.
I just think there might be a perception issue associated with the "power" issue and that manual fire on specific units make them look epic.
That could improve the perception, while allow for more "power" exactly because its manual and recquires apm

whole condor
#

Juggernaut needs to be competent as a unit, without frills. Currently the only real value is a slowly walking bomb.

So that means weapons that do real dps, that you are actually afraid to see walking towards you, rather than wondering why they wasted their metal on it

fierce cedar
errant verge
#

I guess thats the nuance.
These weapons technically function as auto-targetting weapon and you can chose to manual fire.
Your average player doesnt deal wirhnot knowing he has to manually target, or forgets about it, i guess.

whole condor
#

As in via a literal button. Hold fire and set target are native (although units that rely on it to achieve usable value, IMO are flawed)

fierce cedar
#

I mean you could make the Thor auto fire the emp missiles but it would make it an objectively worse unit, the fact you can toggle the main weapon and the emp separately adds value

whole condor
#

Thor shouldn't have emp missiles at all, that's the point. It would never be allowed as a new unit these days

fierce cedar
#

That would make it a boring unit, there's no thor op conversations and it has a useful niche what's the hate lol

errant verge
#

Then as i said it might be acheivable to set a hold fire button for a specific weapon in the case you'd want the ability to "manual fire" a specific weapon. All the whike keeping its defaukt behaviour intact.

whole condor
#

There used to be loads, until people woke up on the titan

errant verge
#

But if the stance on this is no manual fire nor target "micro" recquirment should be recquired to make a unit "good" then its already a no.

ocean dove
errant verge
#

Dunno. We still got the gimmicky llt self d, pyro self d, spy self d to some extent.
These are pretty much special abilities triggered on self d.
They already in the game since years.

whole condor
#

Cost reduction is safest buff, on several levels. The shotgun weapon could do with some more oomph though

fierce cedar
#

Safest but most boring, idk why the gdt wouldn't lean into more unique design rather than titan but its cor

whole condor
#

It's safest because it means no unit relearning, in short

#

IMO the core T3 lab is a shambles, don't get me wrong, but trying to reinvent the unit is probably not the play

fierce cedar
#

That's a horrible reason ngl, its an alpha game things should change to be more fun not be safe from the whiners in discord

whole condor
#

Where needed yes, and if I thought this was one case I'd be all for it

#

Back in the old HBP juggernaut was cheaper and did more shotgun dps, and it felt much more potent to both play and see coming at you

errant verge
#

Back in ba i'm pretty sure its stomp instakilled comms that got too close.
Then stomp was removed and reintroduced against smallfry only

quiet pewter
#

Why would “no unit relearning “ ever be a design philosophy of BAR? Most people in the bar community are total noobs so learning and relearning a unit is the same thing

Also presumably the majority future of BAR players haven’t played the game yet

fierce cedar
#

I get where you're coming from, but isn't that the demons role? Cheap fast t3 "oh shit they have that already" unit

Big unstoppable super mech is behemoth, making an in-between step thats a titan mirror seems a little redundant. Making the jugg have some utility would give it an actual identity

whole condor
quiet pewter
errant verge
#

Soo, quick ideas summary:

    • speed + hp
    • shotgun dps and fix retargetting
  3. more potent missiles
  4. experiment some different tertiary weapons and secondary weapons without changing the way the unit is used ? (Ie cone damages instead of explode on hit projectiles for the shotgun?)
fierce cedar
whole condor
#

I'm not the one enforcing it. If I could I'd fix a whole ton of things overnight believe me, and the game would play vastly better. I'm just saying how things are

whole condor
fierce cedar
#

Significant overlap with Shiva if its just auto target missiles as well instead of stockpile

jolly cape
#

is this patch better then current patch? and how would i install it?

gentle raft
#

you need to copy paste a string

jolly cape
timber grail
junior lake
#

that's a valid interpretation, but, mine based on what I've seen and the decisions made is if it's a super common unit and it doesn't need commandfire it shouldn't have it.

Pawns will never get commandfire.
Juggernaut might get away with it. You don't get tons of those.

bleak bramble
quiet rivet
whole condor
#

A few things in it are main game now, this patch addresses some of the same issues, partly in a different way, but yes the OG is still extant. I should probably update it for current times.

#

There is unfortunately a lot to fix still, but if the issues aren't obvious in high level play, it is very hard to get traction to get things changed, even if the issues are apparent.

quiet rivet