Give Hounds Gauss back

[pallid hawk]

Nerf made them one of the worst units in the game, give gauss back so they at least can be a choice.

You can even remove artillery mode and go only gauss mode if you want simplicity. (keeping the current 285 metal cost, maybe lower E to 5500)

Gauss mode is what made hound a unit.

[winged zealot]

agreed, now a mod will write here to send this in #1353364944350871632 and we are back to square 1

[bronze dawn]

I think the more likely response would be "Use the search function to check for previous threads about the topic" -> #1351897511106707516 message

[pliant plaza]

1. does having 2 modes harm any new player's experience? is there a noob trap in either of the modes? (no)
2. If the unit can function with a singular weapon, why not test out to find a non-useless version of the weapon before removing dual modes?

It lost semi-reliable dmg in the form of gauss cannon. guass cannon could be dodged but generally not by slower things

[jade pebble]

Oh crap that didn't actually say anything my bad

[proud lagoon]

it’s like the people who design the game dont even know they left the wrong fire mode in

[desert pewter]

That's how you balance the video game, ruin the labs that aren't played the most and at the same time giga buff the labs played the most.

[jade pebble]

@desert pewter @proud lagoon I get that you're not happy with the direction that recent balance patches have made but this is not effective way to petition for specific changes. It's just going to inspire a hate mob.
Let's stay laser focused on affecting the change you guys would be happy with for the Hounds.

[jade pebble]

I am confident the toggle is not making a comeback. How should the projectile characteristics change to make the hound more effective at its role? I can present the best arguments to the balance team.

[ripe delta]

theres been a lot of arguments for removing multiple firemodes, but i havent heard a reason why they removed gauss instead of the current one?

[jade pebble]

It was because most people left it in the default fire mode which was plasma Cannon mode.

[ripe delta]

fair enough. i dont think i heard a single voice on discord preferring the plasma mode over gauss though

[proud lagoon]

It wouldn’t inspire a hate mob if everyone didn’t hate the changes

[desert pewter]

We shouldn't even have to say anything, it's obvious you can't remove such a big part to a unit and not change anything else, the 15 metal reduction is totally worthless when your units can't hit anything if it's moving, which good players tend to do move units around non stop.

Used to be hounds would be good in anysituation on their own and be able to pressure, coz you would change fire mod depending on what units you were facing, now you can't do that and they lose to almost everything and they usuage is so niche they are worthless metal feed combined with the spybot deleted ofc.

[thin stream]

personally i'd love the hounds projectile to simply be faster so it can actually land hits
simple but effective i'd argue

[jade pebble]

For a while I was working on adding the auto weapon selection mode like what is used for the plasma cannons like the rattlesnake. What I noticed about gauss mode is that a blob of hounds will infrequently friendly fire themselves because of the low trajectory and the travel speed of the projectiles when you're moving them around

[jade pebble]

No more

[pliant plaza]

well, on a basic level, the other t2 arty do well against hounds (quaker/mauser/sheldon)
And in higher os games, the low hound weapon velocity makes them feel very bad if your opponent micros to avoid dmg

[jade pebble]

Explain why they high skilled people have the biggest problem with it.

I suppose it is possible to increase the projectile velocity and the gravity to make it have a similar Arc to currently to avoid friendly firing in blobs

[proud lagoon]

When you considering opportunity cost there’s basically no reason to ever make the unit

[jade pebble]

While at the same time increasing the chances that it's going to actually hit its Target

[jade pebble]

Opportunity cost versus?

[pliant plaza]

it can't hit dodging t1, relatively low dps compared to the specialized recluse (recluse use to outclass the hound before they nerfed the speed and range)
it's feels like a glorified fast rocket bot

[proud lagoon]

Versus just about any other unit option realistically. Genuinely one of the worst units

[pliant plaza]

generally the long range units have to be babysat against spam. the hound has neither range, nor high throughput, nor can it protect itself against spam
it has mobility but that alone isn't good except for a particular case where you want to pressure llts across a wide map

[jade pebble]

Let's do it this way: how would you rework it yourself? If you only get one projectile type what would it be?

[proud lagoon]

Add toggle back then reassess the unit. Probably faster projectile only would be better than the slow one which only misses

[pliant plaza]

switch the weapon to guass cannon but slightly slower projectile, a touch of aoe (10-14) so it can somewhat hit spam that isn't actively dodging, same dps as current. It should be decent on more open maps and worth it's 1:20 e ratio. (if it's too strong lower dps by 5-10%)

[jade pebble]

I'm going to pin serious proposals, ignoring ones that are almost identical to what already is pinned
I'll be checking back periodically to make sure nothing's missed. I'll send this stuff over to the balance team in a week or so. The hound complaint is a common one enough to warrant their attention in my opinion.
The balance team cannot decide to bring the toggle back, avoid including that.

[winged zealot]

Idk the issue with hounds is that their projectile speed is slow nerfing that and increasing aoe wouldnt make it viable?

[jade pebble]

@ me as necessary!

[desert pewter]

Hound was that unit that nobody agreed on which mode is the best coz people would use it differently, would just pick what is the best for the way they were using them.

[pliant plaza]

it's making it close to the old guass (which had -20% dps penalty) but slightly slower

[jade pebble]

@orchid dragon how are hounds in the tech split?

[orchid dragon]

Raghna suggests higher projectile speed for them.
Not exactly gauss but still way better against fast units.

[winged zealot]

yes i second that

[jade pebble]

What was its role as you guys identified it? (It's not official, I know, but it's a start)

[orchid dragon]

This idea is ancient, before roles were a real thing.
A skirmisher, raider hybrid I'd say.

A bit less range but a bit more DPS. So hounds can't kite med tanks without being hit as easily.

[pallid hawk]

Tell me 1 matchup hounds wins today, you can even use t1 units , I think you can even get kind of shredded by rockos

[jade pebble]

Should their projectile trajectory have enough of an ark to shoot above each other in a blob?

[pallid hawk]

hound was one of the units that felt soooo good to micro , with both fire modes , soooo good

[pallid hawk]

Hounds could actually fight back Sheldons before with spybot and with gauss and superior speed made them destroy Sheldons on close quarter combat so it was kind of a bit more even matchup , now you just get kited to death

Another advantage of gauss is that it’s a linear shot that can hit something behind the target , so you can hit stuff that’s behind the target making it’s effective dps way higher

Need to do the test but I’m pretty sure 10 pawns kill 10 hounds on flat open ground

With gauss it was 0 casualties probably

[desert pewter]

yep unless there are some zeus mixed in but then your hounds suck ass coz they are super slow lol

[orchid vault]

they cant hit fast moving units they are terrible against ticks/pawns/grunts

[orchid vault]

just give it gauss instead of plasma, and its already a much better unit with minimal balance required

or like the others have said, make the plasma shot faster so it can hit fast t1. You could even give it a significant range increase, similar to sheldon, if you wanted it to be an artillery unit, but thats a completlly different unit at that point, i guess matching the role of the sheldon.

[orchid vault]

an (early) mid game skirmisher unit similar to the gunslinger, very effective against t1 units and t1 porc, but outclassed by protected t2 arty like the sheldon, mauser, quaker

And I know I've talked to you about it before so not an actual point to put to the devs, but who cares if noobs/noone didnt use the gauss mode, if they dont know its an option then it cant hurt them. It was incredibly satisifying and gratifying as someone who did constantly toggle for the current situation. Hounds were one of my favourite units and they were completly gutted to being useless in 1 change. It rewarded players with good micro and the knowledge of when to switch, which is 100% a good thing.

[orchid vault]

adding to this, if you made the hounds into the sheldon counterpart, with an aoe plasma shot they would be similar to the quaker, and the sheldon is similar to the mauser with less aoe, would be interesting

[desert pewter]

it was way more interesting to have a unit that could change fire mode and have completely unique gameplay
just like it was way more interesting to have high and low trajectory with different projectiles

[pliant plaza]

not sure, this is a balance decison -- prolly should test

there are counters to balling at t2 (spybot, banisher, tzar, mauser/quaker)

Looking at current BAR, units that can't fire over each other typically have high stats and are tempo units (light raider, rocket bot, thug, shiva). Or some strength to justify this drawback.
Units that can fire over each other typically have dodgeable plasma. Does sala/jag fire over each other? Being able to fire over each other makes controlling significantly easier and gives you the option to reach higher power density.

[jade pebble]

This is actually a really good question for @arctic sun

It's not as opaque as one might think. It doesn't just depend on the projectile characteristics, it also depends on the hit boxes whether or not the turret is above the hit boxes of other similar units.

[jade pebble]

Is there an inverse counterpoint? Is it really that people left it on plasma mode because they didn't care to notice the significant difference between the weapon characteristics? Or was there an actual advantage to it that would be sorely missed?

I would hate to successfully advocate for a change on your behalf to find out that now we have another group of people putting up a stink about the removal of plasma.

Yes yes, I know what you're going to say. Toggle. I really don't see that changing. I'm after finding the ideal compromise and seeing if it's good enough, reevaluate then.

[arctic sun]

id say your looking at the matter the wrong way
it was actually intended for hounds to not be able to fire through their turrets
but just like missile trucks that did not happen due to how bad the FF issues are

[jade pebble]

Please clarify.
Are they currently able to fire through each other or not? Last time I messed with them in guass was 5 months ago

[arctic sun]

they are not

[arctic sun]

they have always been able to fire though their turret

[pliant plaza]

currently plasma yes, guass cannon no?

[arctic sun]

They have been able to
It’s target dependant

[limber crest]

I noticed a significant decrease in unit value from the hound with the removal of the gauss cannon it was super useful when they got pushed or were pushing if you want a middle ground up the projectile speed of the plasma that way its actually semi reliable against anything about as fast as a rocket bot or faster

[jade pebble]

Is there an example of a plasma projectile that has a little bit of an arc to it that is actually able to hit reasonably fast moving units?

[limber crest]

Sheldon

[jade pebble]

Sheldon velocity 450, AOE 36
https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/blob/55d1e324e12ceae9aadb4054c1b519a3cd0421b6/units/CorBots/T2/cormort.lua#L128

Hound 292 velocity, AOE 72
https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/blob/55d1e324e12ceae9aadb4054c1b519a3cd0421b6/units/ArmBots/T2/armfido.lua#L126

Bull velocity 300, AOE 130
https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/blob/55d1e324e12ceae9aadb4054c1b519a3cd0421b6/units/ArmVehicles/T2/armbull.lua#L133

[limber crest]

Like the sheldon on your website it advertised to counter hounds why shouldnt the arm equivalent also counter sheldons my point in this is hounds are just majorly outclassed at the moment by their counterpart

The weapon velocity on the hound is just incredibly unreliable for anything but a full push or static defenses i wouldnt mind a loss in dmg for more reliably landing shots

[jade pebble]

How does the Bull do?

[limber crest]

The bull works good but unlike the hound it has enough health to tank damage in order to get close enough that the velocity doesnt matter

[jade pebble]

That's a good angle. I've already started forwarding stuff to the balance team. We'll see what they do with it. The angle that "hey why is the weapon characteristics so different than other similar plasma projectiles?" Might gain traction.

[limber crest]

The hound is advertised as an artillery unit but its long range capabilities aren’t really reliable

[dense prawn]

Altering current fire mode to have a faster projectile could work too I guess but why dont just revert them to having gauss. Seems complicated for nothing tbh.

[arctic sun]

one thing that people should be careful about with hounds is that they are essentially longer range and more agile medium tanks
there is a lot of cost due to that

[pliant plaza]

yeh they have to pay with stats (dps per cost and hps/cost)

there's also some dynamic where you can go closer to the target to get better accuracy

[pliant plaza]

what are you trying to say?

[orchid dragon]

Many units have much AoE
E.g. bulls

[pliant plaza]

yeh but ideally your hound should just kite the bull. esp with the speed reduction

fatboy/tzar/banisher/sniper all work and they are the intentional "counters" to hound (stronger but slower)
in early t2 hound is mainly going to be maneveuring against quaker/mauser/sheldon and maybe med/heavy tank

[arctic sun]

if the aoe is less than 32(16 displayed) then its not meaningful aoe
the aoe rarely factors into any engagement at less than 32 on the unitdef

[pliant plaza]

spybot is prolly the most dramatic counter to balled up units

anyways, like drivver said, careful tuning of the projectile speed and dps/cost is needed to get the balance right. Even better if the unit can accurately hit spam, but only at closer distances. That adds a decision to intentionally move closer in certain situations.

[arctic sun]

i think the right direction is to make hounds cheaper tbh
they used to be cheaper than they are now (iirc)

[pliant plaza]

how low we talking, like 285->225? right now their high e cost is a factor. They could work as a low tier 2 unit if made even cheaper. That could give t2 arm uniquely strong early open map control for a t2 lab.

Are you reducing their m cost to make them better? or have them remain weakish but higher numbers. So fast presence but doesn't scale as well vs aoe

[arctic sun]

the ta costs infact
i know it was 270 metal
i think 4800 E
git blame time

[pliant plaza]

from my experience 6k e is noticeable on isthmus (your rezzers have to be eating trees not on front doing repairing), and on more normal E maps if you fast tech the E is real infrastructure you have to create. High E units can also have problems being made when wind drops

[arctic sun]

correction
270 metal
5600 E
which is what they costed in TA

[pliant plaza]

Wouldn't be against speccing the hound as the most mobile cheapest t2 skirmisher

[arctic sun]

maybe return them back to having real gauss instead of the fake guess we have in game
they were practically railguns in TA

[pliant plaza]

are you lowering the cost to make the unit better (balance) ? or to make it more spammable while keeping it modestly statted (design)?

[arctic sun]

the problem of the hound is that its not able to compete with rushes
lowering the costs helps with that in particular
the design is mostly right the outcomes needed are not

[pliant plaza]

against rushes you could use welder/gunslinger, tumbleweed is suprisingly good.

Certain t2 labs lack stopping power.

[orchid dragon]

Yeah, I am working on a method to actually make it easier to understand.
AoE is actually a radius/diameter (both with a wrong naming and two values with one name YAY!!! Total confusion) . So the benefits of the show value are growing exponentially.
Additionally the size of the attacked unit matters much. So I am working on this as well. A x is able to hit y units.

Last but not least edge effectiveness is calculated in strange ways.

Quite a mess!
Nothing the human brain understands easily.

I hope I can give an indicator like:
A Fatboy can hit approximately 25 thugs with one shot, if they clump up nicely. Then it will deal approximately 10x its damage value.

[pliant plaza]

Defending rushes:
Arm Veh: Jags/beamers
Arm Bots: Welder (slow)/Gunslinger (high variance)/ Hound (mobile and mostly independent but low throughput). Tumbleweed.
Cor Bots: Sumos (expensive and slow), Fiend, Bedbug. Sheldons too slow as they require critical mass
Cor Veh: Salamander (expensive), Tzar (slow, expensive, but very strong defensively)

mauser/quaker also common for retaking ground and killing coms
There's also mines, porc, t1 walls

[orchid dragon]

Quakers and Mausers aren't Atries atm. They are tank hunters with AoE, an ideal tool to kill med tanks and Thugs/Aggregators.
Arties might be tuned into a role that real arties have. Longer range, high precision vehicles with high speed but long set up time/retreat speed (simulated by low turning speed), lower AoE but high single target damage, long projectile flight time.
So moving med tanks are a good counter to them not the other way around.
Needs many considerations, of course.

[orchid dragon]

Everything but mines, ticks and Pawns are pretty much hard countered by Bulls imo.
I just realized that Bulls one shot grunts, but not pawns... Ouch!

[pliant plaza]

oh yeah bulls are great rush defense

quaker/mauser are just splash long range, they are not so good vs tanks in open map situations (they don't stop tanks and can get rushed as well). They are best vs rocket bot, whistler, and other afk units

[arctic sun]

not what i meant
offensively what hounds can achieve with much more effort isnt the same as goly or fboys in the slightest
or t2 veh arty

[pliant plaza]

sry, by compete with rushes you meant it doesn't compete with mauser/quaker/bull rush? Yeah it doesn't have good throughput

[arctic sun]

in short other rushes are just better than hounds
why make hounds when other things do better

[pliant plaza]

throughput is directly propotional to impact/effeciency. why recluse was favoured over hound

[pallid hawk]

You do this and you give them gauss instead of artillery ( as Fido in TA) and you have a unit

[arctic sun]

recluse has power density over hounds
its a massive difference plus recluse is more able to lane out things than hounds
hounds are better at raiding when you have limited metal
recluse is just better overall

[orchid dragon]

Tank hunters heavily dependent on cover. They can't succeed in open fields.
They deal damage from an "untouchable" position.

In our case I meant Mausers in combination with the T1 porc that tends to already exist.

A common situation:
T1 stall mate with units and porc on both sides. Mausers arrive, do damage, no counterplay for the guy without T2.

The Arty debuff made the situation slightly different but it stays similar.

[pliant plaza]

not power density, literal dps per cost
i would think of tank hunters as tzar/bull which bully tank balls while having some mobility to kite

[orchid dragon]

Hounds have fast turning speed as such they are good poking and counterattack tools. Their speed is good enough (69) to kite most things but 600 range is just not enough to kite most T2.

somehow it is in a design space between gunslingers and sharpshooters.
Both of which have more projectile speed and good turning speed.
Hounds are lacking in the ability to actually deal damage. Part of this problem is: they have an agile chassis and want to move. So the enemy wants to move, too. And now the shots miss.
Additionally they have a short enough range that their low HP matters.

Easiest and most Armada solution seems to be fast projectiles.
And or more raiding orientation. More speed, health, DPS, less range -> lower projectile flight time even without fast projectiles.

@pliant plaza does this analysis fit your understanding?

[pliant plaza]

possible it could get 50 range nerf but I don't think hound should get hp buff
it's not a raider it's a skirmisher

[orchid dragon]

Fair enough.
Just trying to explore reasonable ways to specialize the units for its job.
And skirmishers can absolutely use fast turning chassis and projectile speed.

[rocky plover]

Do you have stats on how little hounds are used? That would probably gain most traction

[pliant plaza]

in the all 20os+ games you'll prolly find their stat rate is abysmmal, but it's better to just watch side by side their impact on front

[rotund mesa]

TA hounds were literally gauss cannon mode only, was weird seeing that one removed instead of artillery mode (t1 tank wrecks would block their shots)

[desert pewter]

deleted 2 units on armada bot lab same patch, not bad

[pliant plaza]

t1 wall should not protect porc from their shots tho xD. sniper getting hard countered by t1 wall is brutal

[desert pewter]

that's not much of an issue
real issue is you can hide ur units close to a wall and be protected while being able to fire
like with whistler and rockets, it completely break the game lol

[dense prawn]

Making them cheaper solves nothing, its making them not useless that you have to do to fix it

[graceful onyx]

Right now hounds only seem good at taking out static defenses and can only hit units that are literally standing still. Seems like the default should be gauss mode and artillery mode could be done away with entirely.

[azure notch]

+1. Give doggo gauss(gauss only is fine). gg. It's a non-unit as-is.

[sullen hinge]

Why not default gauss and auto switch to arty to fire over obstacles and hills? Identical toggle that's with arty systems. Auto / gaugay / plobplop

[jade pebble]

I offered this when I made Auto trajectory. It was rejected. Common units like the hound aren't special enough to get mode selects.

[pliant plaza]

[Hound] 292 -> 340 weaponvelocity

[winged zealot]

still not enough 🤔 but its a step in the right direction

[limber crest]

Hounds still have trouble hitting pawns unless the pawn is within half of the hounds range, decent hit rate on maces within 3/4ths of the hounds range idk ill continue testing but as for right now more buffs are needed

[orchid vault]

is a unit better because its made 1 metal cheaper, yes
does it change much, not really

[limber crest]

Its like its an artillery unit that wants to be a defensive unit

Honestly easiest fix is take away plasma and give hounds gauss i dont get why sprinters move faster than robotic dogs hounds should be a skirmisher which i believe is what they are meant to be but they cant skirmish with artillery they need their gauss

[pallid hawk]

Not enough buff , for me it was hounds weapon velocity -> 425

[orchid vault]

what was the velocity for gauss? give them that

[pallid hawk]

I think gauss was like 750 or so , I’m fine with that too but gauss had 4 AoE , artillery has 32 AoE so can’t be as fast

[orchid vault]

450-550 for me then i think

[pallid hawk]

You can rework hound by:

Range 650 -> 550
Speed 69 -> 74
Gauss mode only
Metal cost 285 -> 260
E cost 6200 -> 5200

More like an in and out mid range skirmisher , it’s not an artillery

[orchid vault]

i like it, id prefer them to have an identity then be half and half unit, either commit to the sheldon match up artillery unit or make them a skirmisher

[limber crest]

Sheldons have 450 weapon velocity and 36 aoe still getting outdone by sheldons by almost 100 weapon velocity and sheldons can hit most units hounds need to be skirmishers to be useful or have the winner of the sheldon hound match up be determined by ability to micro the website says sheldons are direct counters to hounds so why make hounds in the first place when fatboys have the same range and can one shot them it would be for the speed but the speed doesnt matter if health is too low to commit to a push

[desert pewter]

Hounds without spybots were always pretty bad anyways, they used to be able to fight almost anything
Porc with the heavy mode, Fast unit with Gauss mode and heavy units like tzar, tigers, bull ect with spybots emp micro.
The whole lab was destroy by the balance team, now it's only worth to do welder snipers pretty much.
Anyways it won't be the last thing they remove from the video game, unluck

[whole gorge]

Why does the BAR team think their ideas are better than what was in total annihilation for decades? Fidos used a fast, compared to artillery, direct fire weapon that allowed mobile fire-power to used against slower core units that relied on heavy aoe damage and high hp. What stopped the fido was terrain. Fidos weren't able to fire over terrain or wreckage well, that's what made it different. Giving them the plasma artillery fire mode basically made it so they had no 'weakness' so to speak. They were given the ability to do exactly what total annihilations team didn't want them to do.

It's even part of their unit description :
The Fido is a level 2 Assault Kbot with a long ranged weapon; not only is it a fast unit, it is a strong one as well, with good power and durability, however, the cannon shells it fires have a straight trajectory and are therefore easily blocked by elevation and wreckage, making it vulnerable when stuck behind them. The Fido has no CORE counterpart.

And from the manual "This heavy combat unit’s job is to destroy everything that gets in its way. It has a short barrel gauss cannon which can inflict heavy damage. The high velocity shells have a flat trajectory."

I play bar because it's the closest thing to modern day TA, I wasn't exactly sold on the introduction of t3 units given that the krogoth was the only super unit I ever saw from TA. I know bar comes from decades of mods etc and I am grateful to the people keeping it alive, but I like BAR because it's the closest thing to TA in 2025, that looks and feels modern while keeping the feel of TA.

[whole gorge]

Additionally, Sheldons seem to be almost exactly the same as Mortys but hounds have been changed from how fidos work.

[rotund mesa]

Preach

[hoary vector]

BAR isn't TA. If you don't like BAR play TA.

I have a feeling you'll have an aneurysm when you realise we have a third WIP faction too

[whole gorge]

I know legion is being developed and it itself has issues that people are quite vocal about. However you're using TAs units and systems and it seems like you're often trying to fix already solved problems. BAR exists because its basically Total Annihilation. If you stray from TAs design theory you risk ending up like supreme commander 2 a game that no one really wants or cares that much about.

Your reply comes across as arrogant in the extreme if you give so little value towards the game and the designs efforts of the original dev team that created the foundations of your project. Without TA, BAR does not exist.

You guys work within a legal grey area because BAR isn't a commercial product so alot of the goodwill exists because the BAR team is keeping TA alive with modern QoL improvements.

[fiery haven]

None of that means that TA should have any influence on BAR balancing decision. We aim to make BAR a fun game, not a TA clone. In fact, many want it to be extra different

[simple mountain]

This tracks logically. I also don't understand why hound was obliterated. The only reason hound is a useful unit is that if a player uses it, you automatically know that are a noob so they can be specced in op lobby.

The previous balance change didn't seem to be tested outright so why not just continue to push balance change buffing it's weapon velocity until a thread is made saying they are op then throttling them back a bit?

Also +1 for bringing back dual mode

[whole gorge]

So why bother using any TA units or factions at all then? Arm, Core and the majority of their units look act and behave similarly to their TA counterparts, and when you change that - aka how the hound is currently, it sucks.

At the moment some units just have no use at all. And you end up getting mono unit spam - this deserves adjusting . But you can't straight faced tell me that TA has no influence when BAR is basically a TA mod and any creator content I've seen promotes BAR as a modern replacement for total annihilation.

I don't know who these 'many people' are, but this discord seems to have a common set of contributors, where are the many that want bar to be completely removed from its progenitor?

[ivory orbit]

Would a possible idea maybe to replace the plasma cannon with the gauss cannon for the next phase of testing, and see how people perceive it?

I mean, considering that the unit is barely used, except for some nieche cases, we wouldn't really lose much by that, and gain valuable feedback, and possibly even a unit that the community likes more than the current hound

[jade pebble]

The balance team has made their choice to buff the Hounds.
WeaponVelocity 292>340. + 14.1%

Give your feedback on the hound post-change here: https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1353364944350871632

Let's give the Hound a month to settle in before we make a new thread about it.

@plush pawn or @sterile igloo maybe care to make a comment about why we are sticking with a buffed cannon mode before I close out the thread tomorrow?

[winged zealot]

Not enough buff, also btw gex can now tell you which units gets used most vs lowest you can view that for more accurate info on units.

[limber crest]

Im trying it out more its connecting somewhat better with t1 but i wanna ask what made yall switch to artillery on the hound in the first place

[jade pebble]

What is gex?

[tired oxide]

Player lookup: `seth`

Found 12 users that match seth, please provide more characters
-# Sorted based on last updated

SethTurrible
TheSeth
Sethfcm
SethAlamut
AkhSeth
PraisetheSon
sethals
iusetheinternet
Criseth
PraisetheEmperor
PRAISETHEGOAT
ReleeseTheKrakan

generated in 11ms

[winged zealot]

This is gex the best bar bot

[tired oxide]

Player lookup: `BasicAI`

-# Only includes public PvP games since <t:1746121194:D>

Games found: 145
Last seen: <t:1756684452:D>

Factions:
Armada - 52% won of 119 played
Cortex - 54% won of 22 played
Legion - 50% won of 4 played

Maps:
All That Glitters v2.2
44% won of 27 played

All That Smolders v1.2
48% won of 27 played

Supreme Isthmus v2.1
57% won of 7 played

Recent public PvP games:
<t:1756684452:D> - Small team: 4 v 4 on White Fire Remake 1.3
<t:1756681281:D> - Small team: 4 v 4 on Centerrock Remake 1.2
<t:1756678965:D> - Small team: 3 v 3 on Gasbag Grabens 1.1.1
<t:1756676232:D> - Large team: 8 v 8 on All That Glitters v2.2

Gamemodes:

Large team

current: 18.69±3.68
highest: 20.78±3.81
50% won of 109

Small team

current: 23.07±4.79
highest: 24.85±4.91
63% won of 33

Team FFA

current: 18.79±4.1
highest: 18.79±4.1
0% won of 1

generated in 268ms

Player lookup: `Smackables`

-# Only includes public PvP games since <t:1746121194:D>

Games found: 113
Last seen: <t:1756699749:D>

Factions:
Armada - 49% won of 91 played
Cortex - 52% won of 21 played
Legion - 0% won of 1 played

Maps:
All That Smolders v1.2
50% won of 22 played

All That Glitters v2.2
33% won of 15 played

Supreme Isthmus v2.1
37% won of 8 played

Recent public PvP games:
<t:1756699749:D> - Large team: 8 v 8 on All That Glitters v2.2
<t:1756686941:D> - Large team: 8 v 8 on Twin Lakes Park Redux 1.2.2
<t:1756684452:D> - Small team: 4 v 4 on White Fire Remake 1.3
<t:1756681281:D> - Small team: 4 v 4 on Centerrock Remake 1.2

Gamemodes:

Large team

current: 13.6±4.31
highest: 16.75±4.48
50% won of 77

Small team

current: 13.08±5.07
highest: 15.66±5.55
50% won of 32

Team FFA

current: 10.73±4.9
highest: 11.29±5.02
33% won of 3

Duel

current: 12.15±5.11
highest: 12.15±5.11
0% won of 1

generated in 39ms

[pliant plaza]

they are good llt clearers, the projectile speed is just QoL for shooting slow things (less hit confirm time needed)

The E cost is very noticeable compared to other early rush options

I'd expect them to be best on open maps where they can dance around everywhere clearing porc and light enemy troupes while only requiring some ally llt remotely nearby to be safe vs spam

[simple mountain]

hounds still suck, it doesnt take much game knowledge to understand that. a 14% buff to weapon velocity isn't going to help it... just follow dota 2 balance style: overbuff, nerf after. quick turnaround hotfixes

[desert pewter]

just delete at this point imo

[whole gorge]

Hounds like their fido inspiration are supposed to be like an armoured cavalry right? They're basically a tank with legs, reasonably fast, all terrain, good armour and damage for a bot. Less armour/hp than a tank and don't work well when objects are blocking their straight/low trajectory shots.

Giving them slower moving arcing trajectory fire just seems to make them a worse version of a tank, compared to the bull that's just better in every way.

[obsidian slate]

This thread has so many people giving solid suggestions. Devs are just like: nah we just going to do our own thing.

The Fido balance actually makes sense. The problem isn’t just velocity, the unit is just f tier and has about 2 mins of usefulness before they are useless and outscaled.

Maybe make it closer to Sheldon range to really find a use - right now it just gets outranged, out damaged, out sustained vs almost any t2 comp.

[pliant plaza]

it's role is supposed to be more mobile than sheldon/mauser/quaker. obviously it's not going to be good in a very porced map where artillery can easily be supported
hound's key asset is mobility+range and having a bit of hp, it can join spam for an an offensive, killing llts, it can jump exposed t2 arty, it can kite and defend

Like tiger/stouts they benefit from abusing their mobility. They have less firepower / hp but more range to kite enemy units

If not contested with other t2 units they are decent in lane too

[pliant plaza]

Hounds:
-cheap on metal 285m, high e cost 6300 means that it is hard to rush them unless e is very good. If you raised the e cost of quaker/mauser/sheldon or lowered their e cost maybe things would change

[astral lynx]

The "not showing stat" bug always here btw :
#1367578532326146138 message

This poor hound have 0 attention from a skilled craftsman it seems

[obsidian slate]

Maybe increase their speed and slightly reduce e. The entire problem is that they are only viable vs t1 and the moment they are contested by t2 they fall apart. Which is a very small window of time.

[whole gorge]

It's all well and good to say what it's supposed role is, but currently it's role is to take up a slot in the factory menu and not be built.

Sheldons, quakers and mousers are mobile artillery units from their respective factories, exactly like their TA counter parts. That there's a current discussion on what artillery actually is or does in BAR is worrying because it seems like every other game knows the role of artillery units. Fido was an assault unit, not artillery.
It's like the BAR team is trying to reinvent the wheel here.

[pallid hawk]

I have to agree here, hound needs to be a mid range assault unit

[orchid dragon]

What would you think about
74 speed (+5)
400 projectile speed (+60)
And to keep T1 in the game and not invalidate it completely, the hound trades some of its range
500 range (-150)

Assault normally means AoE.
Gaus has no AoE.
But we made the chassis and the projectiles way faster.
Playtesting right now.

[orchid dragon]

Are you proposing to make the power spike bigger and make T1 more obsolete as soon as T2 arrives? I wonder if this would result in more T2 rush, or less.

[obsidian slate]

No, I'm proposing to make the unit viable, and not a unit that just takes up a unit slot in the factory. see @whole gorge and @pallid hawk comments above. The hound has no niche that is viable. Any competent player will tell you that hound is a bad investment at any phase of the game, early t2, late t2, whatever timing.

[obsidian slate]

hound doesn't need a nerf on the range side, playtest without the range nerf and I think it would be interesting

[orchid dragon]

We are playtesting in the context of the tier split. So they will stay valid for longer.

[obsidian slate]

I see, I don't have the full context of the tier split balance so can't comment, let us know how it goes

[orchid dragon]

Thx.
Tech split basically put the AoE monsters into T3 or in case of T2 Arty gives them high trajectories (playtesting atm)

That makes sure that T1 can interact with T2.
And then there are less units on the field that have more HP. So when a Tzar arrives it doesn't kill 20 thugs in 6 seconds. It shoots in 5 hounds and they are fast enough to run away and bait the slow tzar into a trap.

It's not 100% ready, not even close, but the directions seem to feel right.

[obsidian slate]

Cool, yes aware there was a tier split being tested but don't have the details yet to be useful. Are there notes yet on the testing? Or details we can view soon?

[pliant plaza]

as part of base game or as part of tech split?

I don't think the range is what makes it beat t1. You only need enough range to be safe. The range reduction hurts it most when fighting certain porc and t2. As iit has to dive deeper to catch t2 units

[limber crest]

I still believe the hound should be an assault unit rather than artillery i dont know why it was switched to arty its a dog it should be a raider or skirmisher look how the military and police use dogs they send them in cause theyre fast and can get in there quickly speed on arty will only make it stronger than what you want it will be constant kiting and wont really be challenged but with the range deduction and speed you are basically turning it back into a skirmisher already just give gauss back

[pliant plaza]

other than that I'm fine with testing lower range / more accurate wep / faster speed

it will be a more "dogfighting" unit lol, fighting vs bulls and tigers. Where they want to dodge shots, etc.

[limber crest]

I dont really agree with the vision they see for hound its like the inside out trailer “do you ever look at someone and think what is going on inside their head they are making it a skirmisher without making it a skirmisher

[pliant plaza]

i do prefer the guass cannon, there are way too many slow plasma units, better for the hound to be a roamer with an accurate weapon
assault unit is the wrong word. Assaults AFAIK in BAR have lower range and high stats to be able to brute force attacks (sumo/welder/tiger/stout/prometheus)

[limber crest]

Skirmisher not assault

[pliant plaza]

indeed
the dog is a skirmisher but not an artillery skirmisher

It CAN kite t1, but vs t2 it is weaving in and out based on weaknesses on the enemy position

why i'd call it a skirmisher is it likes to take favourable fights often in multiple places. It doesn't want to stand and exchange fire.

[limber crest]

Exactly how it was used when it had both options but for this example im going to pretend plasma didnt exist you would kite recluses and the hp to metal cost was a good middle ground to get enough out to be useful

[pliant plaza]

recluse are good because they have way more dmg but yeah you can use guass cannon, with proper micro you should beat recluse even if hound range is reduced
recluse is good example of rocket = anti-building or afk clumps. Don't need yet another slow-moving weapon in the t2 bot lab

[limber crest]

Exactly it was in a spot where with proper micro it could fight t2 but they nerfed it out of nowhere, there are currently no bots in the t2 bot lab that is a fast skirmisher like the fiend, the sprinter is a raider and just trash at any fight cortex bot lab has slow antispam sumo/mammoth while arms antispam is welder they have no skirmishers

Which the hound filled perfectly before the nerf

[simple mountain]

yes, our current alternative is a la starcraft 1 reaver drop ship micro with sipers

[orchid dragon]

Tech split.

And it is our intention to make assault units of one tier higher receive damage from porc. So they don't delete without interacting.

Recluses will be needed to outrange porc. But Recluses will die easier and maybe they will only shoot 180° so they don't deal damage to units while running away. They are meant to kill static units and be bad against assault units.

[limber crest]

You just like killing armada dont you made this for you

[orchid dragon]

I wrote my comment before I read yours.
So we think in similar, if not perfectly the same direction.

[limber crest]

The banisher have to up their shooting radius because it was useless at 180

[orchid dragon]

All T2 units get a bit less range so it balances out,

[orchid dragon]

Do I understand correctly:
Your wish is to eliminate almost 100% of the AoE of the hound and you want a projectile speed of ... instead?
What is the number you are asking for?
please stay realistic, compare with gaus defense.

[pliant plaza]

it was ~270 degrees, and it was not useless just tricky to use. probably too tricky for most players
Well microed you can mitigate most of the disadvantage of 270 degree firing

[limber crest]

I am looking for no aoe and the same projectile speed of the gauss with the only weapon on the hound being gauss did gauss have aoe originally

[orchid dragon]

Kk
Rest assured, that one of the 3 tech split votes goes towards that exact number.

[limber crest]

ok ❤️

[pliant plaza]

if you have extremely low aoe like gunslinger / hound guass, they can struggle to hit ticks/dodging spam. This can make them weaker than expected, back when guass cannon was supposed to be the accurate lower dps version.

[limber crest]

thats why we have welders

[pliant plaza]

the welders are too slow to roam with the hounds. better to use webber or plats

[fiery haven]

So basically. T2 Legion Centaur ("dog")

[orchid dragon]

Just like Sumos and Sheldons (with reduced range as well)
Almost as if it was intentional that assault skirmishers can't mono comp every single T1 units to death...

You can have defense against Ticks, but it will reduce your skirmishing ability.

[pliant plaza]

What is an assault skirmisher?

Isn't assault tanky units with good stats that can lead an assault?

Usually those units have low range, whereas skirmisher have high range for their tier

[jade pebble]

I can't speak on Robert's behalf,
But,
I would say that Sheldon's are a artillery skirmisher. They can't move very fast but they can kite while shooting and have very long range.
Meanwhile, hounds are quick and have decent range and can kite while shooting. Their maneuverability is what makes them viable for direct conflict in a comparable way theoretically to a unit with less mobility and more Health like a bull.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
This is probably one of those situations where the unit wears multiple hats

[simple mountain]

i dont think hound is being used at all right now? i think its wears 0 hats atm

[pliant plaza]

i call them artillery because they can't hit spam.

Hound strength:
-Pretty decent range
-fast

Hound weakness:
-doesn't have good matchup against supported t2 units
-LOW throughput similiar to a skirmisher, lower throughput than t2 arty or recluse
-high e cost
-projectile not reliable against spam / dodging t1

[pallid hawk]

Projectile speed needs to be 450-500 imo , but I will just give it gauss tbh , looks good

[orchid dragon]

Can you find a better name, please?
Mine sucks.

It should include that the ability to survive is based on engaging and disengageing and dodging bullets, not face tanking them.

I wouldn't quite calm them raiders.

[jade pebble]

Poor hatless doggo

[orchid dragon]

Yeah we try to avoid
fast + out range t1 for t2
I am still not feeling that we are quite there, yet.
More playtesting is incoming, that will surely help.

[whole gorge]

If unit facing is going to play a bigger role, you're going to have to allow us to determine unit facing when giving move orders.

It's already annoying having to move artillery with a 180 field of fire back and then moving them foward again to face where you want

[orchid dragon]

You are 100% correct we have already talked about how to control it.

For the first tests we just say: we will need to solve it, but how does it feel, if we assume it is in the game.

[orchid dragon]

180° is too much to make it feel meaningful and too little to make it effortless, imo.

There are good reasons why 180° was chosen. The fight command is one such reason.

[whole gorge]

If it's in the game then probably pretty good, how does it affect dragging unit spacing in patterns more complex than straight lines? I know that probably won't be something you'd(players) do with mobile artillery, but some players may want it?

I chose 180 because that's the main unit that I have to keep an extra eye on since they don't always face the correct way unless you keep extra attention. And it's like is BAR all about micro or larger strategic decisions, because later on worrying about granular unit facing when you've got huge amounts of units etc can get painful.

Which you're probably also aware of.

The mobile arty seems to be used in that transitional phase where you can worry about unit micro, while later on the switch is to units with long ranges and 360° of fire. That's what I've seen at least.

Back to the hound though, I was watching some higher os players using them and they do seem better now with the faster projectile, but I still think a flatter projectile arch and less ability to fire over obstacles was a good compromise to stop hounds being the only unit to choose from.

Does the bar team have any plans or ideas or thoughts on formations like supcom or age if empties had/has - front line units in front and then ranked behind them the different unit types like aa, artillery etc?

Because I think of supcom formation and facing orders when I play BAR. And that helps with forming up alot.

My one thought though I BAR already has so many unique unit control features that it might get too much. Even I don't use half of them. Watching superkitowiecs videos about fine unit control has given me more awareness of those.

[orchid dragon]

It's already in the game.
Not highly refined, but in the base game.

Alt + drag?

[whole gorge]

Really? Well there you go. I'll try to remember that.

[orchid dragon]

I don't think anyone is currently improving formations.
Do you think they provide real value? Or is it"just" a nice QoL feature?

[whole gorge]

I can see the hound if it's too good will go back to dominating the t2 unit choice and I understand people don't want that. But it is an iconic unit and seeing it be useful and fun to use would be awesome for me at least.

Well if I could line up rocket bots with grunts/plasma bots in front with a simple drag formation order it'd be nice. Same with t2 units having beefier units infront and long range low hp units behind like snipers or Sheldons.

[orchid dragon]

As I said:
I will vote for gauss.
With reduced range and higher speed. It numbers are in the chat

[whole gorge]

My memories of fidos in TA, which I know bar isn't TA was hounds could shoot out of t1 bot range and had good damage but they didn't scythe through them due to not having aoe damage.

And wrecks would block fidos shots.

[orchid dragon]

Ask a mentor, I am 99% sure that there is some kind of mechanism

Not as good as in faf (by far), but similar

[whole gorge]

Does the BAR team have documentation of all the unit controls somewhere?

[marsh ore]

There's a page in the game that shows keys and what they do

[orchid dragon]

Docume.... What?

[whole gorge]

Yeah, but does it show everything? Including mouse clicks and things like holding alt over a certain unit and issuing attack orders to just those units in a circle attack order?

[marsh ore]

Probably information overload to look at every possible way to arrange your units

[orchid dragon]

I am afraid, there is none.
A few quiet good ways to learn controls exist. But even I don't know everything.
Like inserting units in front of a building queue will behave differently when it on repeat or not.

[whole gorge]

Yeah, so a document that I could look at out of game I think would be helpful to get my head around. There's several videos from content producing players that go through them but stuff at a glance is nice too.

Still this is about hounds and I guess the answer is 'we're looking at gauss and how to implement it correctly' so should keep conversation to that end.

[orchid dragon]

Do you want to do me a favor, and just throw every command you know and isn't on the website in a document?
Documentation needs to start somewhere.

[whole gorge]

I'd have to look them up, but I'll give it a shot. SuperKatowiec made this video that was helpful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaXGlBqIx6Y&list=PLS1kQJ6UwhNFECkymDGPI6DUfLJ3xKfAN&index=2

[orchid dragon]

He makes a lot of helpful videos.

[orchid dragon]

Feel free to test 😄

[pliant plaza]

what's the dps compared to vanilla?

[orchid dragon]

Gauss:
170/2.733s=62

Plasma:
255/3.166s=80.5

https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/blob/00aceb7d19b080f56cb8fb4ceb45e4520446cdfe/units/ArmBots/T2/armfido.lua

[pallid hawk]

You nerfed range by 150, so imo you want to mantain artillery dps but with gauss

[pliant plaza]

5 speed is not worth 150 range yeh (with same dps as old guass)

[orchid dragon]

Well I am proposing it, you test it, I listen very carefully what you say.
Then we iterate and together we come to a good spot.

And then I will post the playtested change internally.
I can't guarantee anything but I sure hope it works out!

[mystic juniper]

I liked the gauss cannon thing, allowed for such crazy micro
on the other hand in the spirit of armada "out smart enemies with tactical moves" doing the spybot emp on the enemy seldon ball and surrounding with sprinters feels more armada
but unit is bad if not micro'd properly also is armada stuff isnt it?
my vote is to bring back gauss cannon

[whole gorge]

Hound sort of needs a reset right? go back to basics - if it's then the defacto 'just build hounds' then its an issue.

[limber crest]

Im just happy hound is finally getting the attention it needed

[jade pebble]

Internally, I'm seeing mixed signals. The significant portion of the internal discussions are mirroring the sentiment of you, the players. Since the developers are still gaining value from this thread, it will remain open.
Thank you all for helping us stay on track.

[obsidian slate]

Would an aa backpack on hounds be too op?

[ripe delta]

or a saddle for gunslingers to hop on

[limber crest]

Bros reinventing the gauss

[simple mountain]

Yes plus 1 a unit in the back of hound would be really nice

[jade pebble]

It's so dumb I kind of like it

[spare trail]

https://tenor.com/bVptj.gif

[obsidian slate]

Lfg!

[dense prawn]

Unit is still too bad, doesn't serve any role. Please give back gauss so it can be used, lower its damage a bit or whatever but it needs its old wep back

[pliant plaza]

yeh stop trying to make it an inbetween weapon just give it guass, guass is way funner if you only have choice of 1 weapon
arm has the affordable fatboy for plasma and spiders for anti building already

[orchid dragon]

Do you watch Brightworks?

I wonder who wrote the tweak for him 😉

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfje54KrwZo

[dense prawn]

That's still not gauss if I understand correctly, just slightly faster arty shot? Imho not the right approach but let's see.

[orchid dragon]

I copied the original weapon stats

The range was oppressive so I had to reduce it. T1 needs to have a chance to interact with the Hounds.
I hate nerfing the buffs and wanted to give something back so the hound can become a cool unit again, so I made it faster and fire a bit more frequently.
More Gauss more good.
Brightworks likes it.

[obsidian slate]

So gauss back?

[fiery haven]

only with robert tweak

[orchid dragon]

That's the current test version.

But that's my personal thing.
Obviously we have multiple opinions inside the team.

[dense prawn]

That does sound good!

Original combo of range and damage was indeed too mucho

[limber crest]

when gauss update comin out fr

[orchid dragon]

I am working on it, but who knows.

[limber crest]

ill be patiently waiting in high hopes

[orchid dragon]

@limber crest exists.

[limber crest]

Dankward is slow dankward needs context

[orchid dragon]

Take the stuff that is marked in blue, go to advance options, to the tab "cheats", scroll down. Add the stuff into unit tweaks.

Have a gauss hound.

[simple mountain]

this reenables the toggle button i nthe menu?

[craggy tundra]

Even with gauss hounds were still shit and none used

[pallid hawk]

Skill issue

[rancid river]

they are the first t2 unit out and lose hard to every other t2 unit, but partially because of co op meta they never make it out any earlier than any other t2 unit.

[limber crest]

Hounds are lovely 🥰

[orchid dragon]

Feel free to just use the tweak and include something like "gauss hound" or "good boy" in the lobby name.
Would be nice to get some more feedback.

[limber crest]

this is a game played with gauss hounds this is the best copy of the match i can get the website wont put it up

[orchid dragon]

Anything in particular that is important?
Or anything you want to mention?

[limber crest]

My buddy is hesitant on the how much speed it has we are going to open a public lobby with it to test against t2 but very easy to pump 3 out and jump on commanders with geo without geo it proves a little more difficult but they are hardly challenged by t1 still pretty sure itll stand as a skirmisher in t2 without doubt tzar and fatboy shots will tear them up so i like where theyre at with that

Honestly i think with that speed it should be a 40 metal increase but 5800 enery instead of 6300 the biggest bottleneck of early hounds is energy they cost more e than welders so you basically need a fusion

[orchid dragon]

If the unit feels nice to play I would try to let the stats as they are.
If the unit feels "untouchable" in some situations, I'd say the concept needs to be reconsidered.
Less speed OR range are the two things I would look into. But then more DPS.
As soon as the concept feels like it's in a good spot for many interactions we can think about changing the cost.

[limber crest]

Yeah i agree it feels nice rn we havent tested against t2 but we will tonight when i get back home a 8v8 lobby will be open

[whole gorge]

You mention geo, is that on isthmus or just any map that has access to geo power?

[limber crest]

Any map that has geo access

[whole gorge]

Can faster t1 units threaten them much or are they just too powerful too fast? I wouldn't mind trying them out with gauss back. I know I keep using TA as a reference point. And I don't know the finer points if TAs multiplayer, but a big thing for fido was their gauss shots were easily blocked by wrecks and other objects, like trees ricks and terrain elevation etc.

Is that a thing at all here?

[limber crest]

Gauss hound lobby is up

need people

[limber crest]

tested it on supreme lava and it was great on jumping on out of place sheldons it finally has the speed it needs to do it effectively and its great at jumping banishers when spread out in a line

it is low enough health tho to get killed easily so its more a runby and runby catcher unit where it seems to find most of its use on open maps and t1 v t2, and jumping on single shot and out of place artillery.

[orchid dragon]

Thx.
Sounds like they are working as intended.

The power on open maps is something I am not sure about. That needs more testing, imo.

[limber crest]

further testing has been had and it still feels underwhelming cant really stop t1 runbys and the range way out matches their vision and radar bots arent fast enough to keep los full so the range kinda gets negated and in a 1-1 match when in range of a llt the hound loses summary lessen range a bit and increase shot power

[orchid dragon]

Very interesting findings. Thx a lot.
Are there other units, that the hound could get combined with? E.g. a few ticks?
I really like the idea of units that benefit from combining them instead of mono comp units. Raiders have a special role, though. They are meant to be able to fight on their own without help.

I am open to brainstorming proposals.

[limber crest]

i tried combining with ticks and even with ticks it wasnt really helpful because the t1 bots just overwhelm because theres not enough aoe on the gauss shots to effectively take them out or enough stopping force to stop a brute runby

[limber crest]

if combined with a fatboy it would get a runby path but it cant protect the fatboy that much

[ivory orbit]

Well, but isn't that intended, with single target weapons? That would be similar as to complaining that sharpshooters get overwhelmed by ticks

[orchid dragon]

All that sounds like a unit with strengths and weaknesses. So I am not panicking when I hear these observations. Finding a sweet spot is hard, but I think we are not awfully far away atm.

The goal is to make the hound more cost effective than T1 in most situations, not to invalidate any amount and any kind of T1 that gets thrown at it.

Tech split tries to split techs into significant, but not OP steps. That's why we are aiming at the T2 monsters. Either make them real T2 (nerf them until they are T2) or move them to T3 and buff them. 😉

[limber crest]

Didnt you want raider units to be able to fight for themselves i agree it shouldnt be monocomp but the hound cant even stop t1 runbys from brutes 4 hounds take approx 20 secs to kill a brute if not surrounding and chasing it down and when you have 6 brutes the hound has little effect

Energy is at a good spot tho with wind on glitters you can still push hounds out early

[whole gorge]

Hounds are supposed to be assault bots right? - not pure raiding.

[orchid dragon]

Brawling/assault is covered by Welders mostly imo.
An assault unit with the speed of a Hound would be OP imo.

[orchid dragon]

I think I am missing the metal per metal comparison to fully understand.
I read 1 hound against 4 brutes? That should be a win for the brutes, 4x more metal on a chassis that is way less agile and a unit type that is made for direct engagements.

So please clarify,or send a replay with time stamp or a even a screenshot might help a lot.
Screenshots should really be a nice way of communicating imo.

[orchid dragon]

And 1v1 with wide open lanes and maps is different to 8v8 with way less space to avoid enemies/longer travel distances.

We need to consider all game sizes.

[whole gorge]

I get what you're saying Re Zeus, but the Zeus has the aoe damage to protect units from being swarmed by t1 stuff and the health to brawl, but the Hound has range, single target damage and speed. they can both be assault units
Zues is high hp, short range, slow, aoe damage bot. While the Hound is higher single target damage, longer range and good speed and traversal - similar to but no as high hp or durable as a tank - nor with the ability to lob shots over terrain or obstacles and with better speed over variable terrain heights.

[limber crest]

Misunderstood i said 4 hounds one brute

https://medal.tv/games/zero-k/clips/lauoRzHcoSta1Nsut?invite=cr-MSxCWjIsMTk0Mzg5Nzgy&v=60

[orchid dragon]

@limber crest THX a lot!

This is a bit of a mess.

I see hounds fighting against some green units. Letting one die for APM reasons.
Then I see them switching lanes extremely fast. I see them killing a few ticks that otherwise would have landed in the back line.

Then I see them staying in range of medium tanks with the ability to dodge their shots and that they are targeting multiple targets and turning in a way to reduce their DPS.

All in all they don't seem OP, nor UP.
Most other units of this price wouldn't have killed the Ticks or they wouldn't be able to change lanes as fast. When you compare them to Jaguars, yeah Jaguars would have done better in this case per metal, but Jaguars are... Special.... And have less range.

I see that this 1k metal doesn't seem OP DPS wise, but survivability and flexibility against T1 is way up there.

But this is only my first impression.
What do you think?

[dense prawn]

Worth a shot, roll back if It's shit

[limber crest]

i think its worth a shot

[whole gorge]

I would maybe increase their projectile speed just a tad from my usage of them versus ai - but that's just me.

[orchid dragon]

Gauss+ hound?

[orchid dragon]

#1421227359398269090 message

you might find this interesting.

[orchid dragon]

This is actually in the main code of the game, just a little bit hidden 😉.
Gauss hounds and less OP Sheldons are closer than ever.
Instructions can be found here:

https://gist.github.com/BAR-Neb/946d0ff5f353813d1a5c86aaf09ac221

[void idol]

I was gonna say we have gauss hounds in the tech split haha. But I think they still feel a little weak even

[orchid dragon]

T2 Armada might need a small buff. But gunslingers could really get some more time to shine, now.

[dense prawn]

Tiger t2 lab but bull t3 with turtle in t2?

Also banisher t2 lab, we got a winner lab already xD

[pliant plaza]

400 range banisher lol. With increased speed it's basically an extremely expensive faster janus

[orchid dragon]

There are two kinds of OP units in T2 (against T1):

Instant value
Infinite value

We put the instant value units into T3 and infinite value in T2 and reduced their survivability.

Bulls are indeed an edge case. They basically are both against T1.

Banishers are of infinite value. They just never die if they are microed correctly.

Tigers are none of the above. Pitiful AoE ok range and DPS. They generate value but T1 will chip them to death.

Let's see if turtles can shine, now that there are no instant value units on the field for T2.

[dense prawn]

Sorry struggling to follow the logic, how is banisher not instant value? Or did you nerf it mucho to go along with the redesign as chrono says?

[ivory orbit]

Could you explain what you mean with Instant value please?

[pliant plaza]

There are plenty of t2 units that can stop or delay a tzar from getting infinite value

[orchid dragon]

Basically:
The unit arrives and the enemy is dead.
At least for a new player.

OP gameurs know what to do. But it's an extremely sharp sword.

This diagram shows the power level of a Thug ball. And the drop off, when a Tzar arrives.

[pliant plaza]

This just shows a lack of understanding of what is strong in bar rn

[ivory orbit]

If you have issues with the techsplit, please give constructive feedback here https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1421227359398269090

[orchid dragon]

Banishers are oppressive, but they take time to delete the enemy / T1 armies.

[pliant plaza]

It certainly couldn't possibly be worrying if someone trying to design something on behalf of bar devs makes very whack statements about what is strong/weak and why.

Also if said contributors are chatting about tech split everywhere I'm going to reply everywhere. Don't try and mod check me.

Tiger actually stronger than bull rn. By not a small margin.

[orchid dragon]

Here we go again.

Tigers are stronk, but they can't insta delete T1. And you know that that is an important factor. Don't act as if this was new, or irrelevant.

[pliant plaza]

Bull is op in a rather specific scenario with the speed nerf.

8v8? Don't you have your own techer to make own counter unit? Jammer bot or sneaky pete.
1v1? Just back up and surround, 60 speed bull is pretty slow to impact map. On wide map tiger goes where ever it wants vs bull

[orchid dragon]

That's not new to me.

The bull should not get nerfed imo. It should get buffed. And guess what tier allows more buffs?

[dense prawn]

Will the t1 cons be able to build the t3 Factory?

[orchid dragon]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vSSqG_C7l4CrWDgQLO1ynJRrqoakyM4zHk5SwxoU2KQXztzu195NQRGH4qzVaNsm-3Dbu0NrcY1F-HS/pub

It's written here.

[dense prawn]

So, you need a 2k metal factory built from a t1 cons to build tigers but a 5k metal factory built by a builder made in the 2k t2 factory to build what I guess will be a vastly altered equivalent... Sounds strange to me but I already rained on someone else's parade regarding balance and I'm not a full time cloud so goodspeed! 👍

[void idol]

Not really. I think you're just missing his point. Most players understand that when certain units arrive on the field in BAR, like a tzar, certain other units immediately lose their entire value.

[winged zealot]

@jade pebble do one for hounds the one you did for juggernaut poll

[pliant plaza]

oh okay it's just vs t1 only. fine.

[jade pebble]

In a bit, don't wanna spam. Pinged internally probing what the status is for gauss rework

[winged zealot]

ic ic

[jade pebble]

Good idea tho!

BLT says nah to the poll. But it's looking like we are gonna get a gauss hound to text next balance patch modoption or this one perhaps. Keep bothering me if something doesn't manifest.

[winged zealot]

oki thanks for the try though

[plush pawn]

poll makes more sense when theres something concrete to try. So ppl can give more informed votes

[void idol]

They can try gauss hounds already in the split, that's where we are testing wider changes. Hopefully blt takes the communities favorite ideas to test out

[desert pewter]

I tried hounds with current tweak once and they worked great actually hitting t1 units even most the time leaving no wrecks with like 5 hounds but that's not big testing enough

[void idol]

Yeah BLT should pull the changes straight out of our experimental patch and put it into a small patch for people to test on its own.

Split testing on its own is obviously not enough

[desert pewter]

I meant the current patch in the video game they did recently

[pliant plaza]

agile dodging unit with a slow inaccurate mortar just feels bad

[void idol]

Yeah agreed

I feel like Ive seen players asking for gauss hounds for ages now, I wonder why nothing's been done

[void idol]

You mean the changes that are already in the game that gave them a small projectile speed increase?

[desert pewter]

GG i can't thumb you up 👍 coz im blocked

[void idol]

Lol oops

I feel like it was barely a change for hounds tho

[pliant plaza]

{
 armfido = {
 energycost = 5130,
 speed = 74,
weapondefs = {
            bfido = {
                    areaofeffect = 34,
                    range = 520,
                    weaponvelocity = 520,
reloadtime = 2.21,
damage = {
default = 178.5,
vtol = 24.5
},

    },
}
}
}

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edit: outdated

strong vs t1, can skirmish vs t2, can actually dodge some mauser shots. still misses spam some of the time because of no predict boost

if it's too strong i would just raise the metal cost

[limber crest]

im trying to test this further but it wont let me put a unit tweak in keeps saying not available in this mode

[limber crest]

?

[white crown]

if dont want to let gauss hound back at least make plasma hound aim and hit enemy easier. Now hound is very hard to hit fast units which make it can't hold his early t2 character in arm bot lab.