#Juggernaut Rework proposition

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

boreal belfry
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Cross post from meta discussion

Current Juggernaut is kind of unviable due to its performance
It fails at spearhead-pushing due to low health and performance of the weapons
Sea-raiding also fails due to the speed and dguns, and compared to titans, juggernauts perform worse in sea.
To top it all off, the very expensive price makes it unreliable to build in many scenerios.

This rework changes the current starburst missiles with Catalyst's Tactical Missiles, giving juggernaut a long range high aoe burst damage weapon.

This incentives the juggernaut to pushing, so that the missile can be launched to break defenses. (No super long range makes it so that juggernauts cant just sit back and wait for payload)
It also rewards the juggernaut for staying alive during battles so that the payload reloads (plus, juggernaut levels up and it becomes stronger)

Gives a new defense option to clear out the surroundings, such as incoming marauders

And can empower raids and gives ability to be able to bomb fragile targets (Manual targeting gives microing more rewards too)

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sly cliff
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Thanks for following procedure 🙂

steep root
boreal belfry
lofty fog
steep root
#

can we also add stomping ticks and pawns and grunts

boreal belfry
lofty fog
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#1094108566316662794 message

green vapor
civic matrix
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The pathfinding through friendly walls is a separate issue. It isn't a blocker for the above change.

boreal belfry
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the code for the krogcrush still exists
but it doesnt work

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is it because of bogus = 1 ?

civic matrix
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I had footstomps working once within the last year, it can be resurrected if desired. So far, not desired. It is not hard to do.

boreal belfry
boreal belfry
civic matrix
#

I like the concept of OP adding command fire missile as a mirror to the Thor on the Armada side.
Even if the Juggernaut ends up being rebalanced to being roughly what it is now, it will feel more badass with a high impact command fire missile IMO. Maybe with that feeling it'll be enough to kill these threads for good. ;p

tribal cargo
boreal belfry
lofty fog
tribal cargo
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These are good points too

lofty fog
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By the time you are building juggs, they are walking into T3 compositions that resist nukes fairly well.

boreal belfry
tribal cargo
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Juggernauts could use a little more speed? honestly mammi spam is far more effective

Think of somethin fast too because i plan to remodel the jugg

boreal belfry
tribal cargo
#

Juggernaut twink death arc

boreal belfry
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i must model too, one must model, modelpilled, my modelling life, modelling hard, modelling painful but modelling is the eseence
life if i could model

tribal cargo
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Billions must model

civic matrix
tribal cargo
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True, I just think its too similar to the titan

civic matrix
tribal cargo
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I could aso suggest long range laser cannons

stark mirage
#

You could change Jugg to be all the lasers #🎨｜bar-fan-art message

tribal cargo
#

Take a book out of the scavengers and cover it in casemate lasers

boreal belfry
lofty fog
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Give jugg (and maybe titan) a torpedo weapon when they are in water?

boreal belfry
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maybe some anti air but no emp resistance can also be an idea
i think being EMPable can balance out some buffs (helps armada against the jugg)

lofty fog
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Shotgun torpedos on the jugg would be funny

green vapor
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Pls let sea players have smth to defend themselves from t3.
titan alr wins any ship in a 1v1 and also the t3 hovers are also in the same lab where u build ur jugs and titans so just make some hovers instead adding more broken sht to t3

boreal belfry
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i wish some of the extra sea units were implemented
there is stuff like that in extra units

burnt sundial
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Since this exists, i will just say that the BAR official Page displays almost double the dps than the jugg really has, in game is only like 2180

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Oh also if you view the full unit info in-game it also says its 4k somehow, wheres that "ghost" dps numbers coming from?

toxic owl
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the reason stomping isnt enabled is because of friendly fire, juggernauts often walk right through friendly bases

civic matrix
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Looks like it's likely a feature that needs a sane and reasonable technical implementation. It's a wanted feature but:

  • it mustn't damage friendlies
  • it mustn't cause big boys to path through and destroy friendly structures
  • it mustn't look silly
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If someone wants to add it in, I'll bother the GDT to make a definitive decision before you actually do it.

lofty fog
civic matrix
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Thanks for the correction. Brain fart.

boreal belfry
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@tame sparrow
here, also idk why but i cant change message cooldown

burnt sundial
steep root
civic matrix
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I mirrored this thread internally with the balance team. It can take them a bit to get around to it - poke me later if I don't return with an answer within a couple weeks.

unborn silo
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If the jugg is a more expensive unit than a titan, it means that after the juggs reach a certain quantity, they should be able to trade favorably versus a larger amount of titans considering their metal cost.

boreal belfry
toxic owl
unborn silo
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I think a good idea would be to get rid of the death explosion or reduce it by half, and make the self d timer 5 seconds

Edit: I forgot to mention that I was suggesting that the reduced death explosion only happened when it was killed normally 😭

This way you could use a line of juggs without them exploding like dominoes.

boreal belfry
frigid pike
boreal belfry
burnt sundial
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I think im 1 day early

errant garden
green vapor
errant garden
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Yeah - so there's a t3 anti sub unit in the hover, but it's short ranged and the juggs and behemoths can't attack the subs, while the navy can bomboard the hovers with their plasma cannons.
the heavy attack subs have huge distance last time i used them, is that not the case anymore?

green vapor
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okay we can agree it depends on the map, so i have different opinions

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and u can easily win back sea when u are making t3

errant garden
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Yeah, coming from the TA to supcom to now BAR t3 units have always been an issue in my eyes personally. The Krogoth was unique in that only Core had it, and the snipers and penetrators were added to be counters to it without just having an Arm Jugg. But supcoms t3 units were basically just "now just build t3 units" I think FAF may have tried to counter that abit, but it still feels like "Build t3 to win".

And it seems like that's what BAR has done, not neccessarily intentionally, but it's still there. I do know that multiple flag ships can kill a jugg and so can heavy attack subs. But I haven't played enough vs players to assert any confidence that it'll always work.

tame sparrow
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I wish the jugg's missile was more like a manual fire tac nuke

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I also wish they were more expensive super strong like a lolmech. Something you can't really counter easily

burnt sundial
tame sparrow
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I agree, you could probably go even higher tbh

toxic owl
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dont increase the price, even with tac nuke it should propably cost 26k metal and less E, since the tac nukes will drain ressources

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jugg doesnt have the potential to be oppressive really because it takes so much effort to make, my old jugg rework tweak buffed it to the point where you might say its a little OP and guess what it still barely appeared on brightworks streams and people still got it D gunned

celest schooner
civic matrix
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I passed the poke along. Thanks for the reminder.

obsidian star
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Just seeing this now but I like the idea of a command fire weapon on a jugg.

burnt sundial
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Keep this thread alive, i love jugg but my boy needs a buff in a way or another, change its design even but keep the big ass lazer

frigid pike
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They just removed firing mode from hound. Adding a new button to jugg would be against their philosophy of simplifying ui

obsidian star
toxic owl
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they just need to give both thor and jugg a big flashy button that says press me

boreal belfry
boreal belfry
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theee rocky

unborn silo
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Considering that armada has Thor, it only makes sense that cortex has their own ability t3 unit

keen scroll
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tac nuke jugger :>

burnt sundial
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So... Any conclusion?

cunning matrix
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If you let the opponent build a slow ass 28k metal unit and walk it to your side it should not be easy to deal with

true crest
cunning matrix
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Too real

civic matrix
burnt sundial
cunning matrix
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they are not useless anymore but cmon tac launcher
before the speed increase there was basically no situation where they were preferred, except when you have enough money to make a line of them vs line of titans

D tier --> C(+) tier

civic matrix
young marlin
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While arguably the hardest unit to counter, it is simply too expensive (comes too late) to actually cause an impact outside of those sim city 15 afus games

tame sparrow
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I wish juggs could be a true lolmech
instead afus scaling is more efficient pepe_sadness

steel otter
# boreal belfry https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1405538471543570642/1405539642199113769/2...

I'd go as far as also make his cannon shots have a damage and explosion matching that of a Tzar. You know, make him a big deal even if that means increase his cost.

To me both Juggernaut and the Behemoth should be game-ending units for Cortex and I'd even scrape Vulkan in favor of that. Leave a game-ending building such as Ragnarok for Armada (and perhaps makes the plasma shots explosions EMP stuff nearby for that Armada flavor).

tame sparrow
cunning matrix
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when you have a unit that costs 28k metal and is NOT difficult to deal with it's just not strategically relevant

tame sparrow
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Yeah I feel like they should be stronger win cons instead of just lolcannon or t2 air

burnt sundial
toxic owl
toxic owl
strong bison
# toxic owl even t1 tanks actually

Well, the same goes for titans. You can always kill those units with spam. Its not something new. I think if juggernaut gets stronger arm also needs a stronger unit than titan, since it will get useless at some point, if they do not get another unit. Killing behemoths with titans takes long enough. Juggs do also have much hp. They are not that slow. I think the point is, that you do not want a 29 k unit, that can not be stopped once build in 8v8, not very slow, except by dgun. For small teams this would be even harder. If players get the clue to spam with some katapults around that units, the com wont dgun or do so very late. I think behemoth is already an op unit, but does not really get produced for some reason. You can just close a front with 20k metal, even if its slow. I think juggernaut is a weak unit, but thats because its so hard to get. Not because it can not be very op at a certain level, if you have enough. Maybe you should make the juggernaut weaker, but more cheap. Making it op does cause cortex to be the only endgame option. If one juggernaut is competitive against 2 titans, 2 will just wreck 4 titans.

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I really think making them weaker and cheaper is a proper solution.

toxic owl
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just do both, add tac nuke launcher and reduce price to 26K, since jugg will have upkeep cost to stockpile the tac nukes anyways

strong bison
toxic owl
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the range shouldnt be as long as the static launcher obviously, propably 1k range on juggernaut, the advantage of tac nuke command fire is that you get a huge AOE that hard counters snipers and can tear a hole into static defense, and the current rocket of the juggernaut will usually just target random useless stuff and miss it anyways

strong bison
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Juggermaut is better than a titan in close combat. The vulnerability is flanking and the spread of the shotguns. If the shotguns would not spread that much juggernaut would be clearly stronger than titans. They are just hard to get. They have more range than titans, but are slightly slower. I think we lack experience playing them right.

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Sometimes you encounter them in ffa. If its late game and they have some, worth the same metal as your titans there is nothing you can do

toxic owl
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no, titans can choose the engagement, you have no reason to step into the range of the juggs shotgun

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thats the main issue, you allso cant retreat with a jugg on low health to prevent it from blowing up, titans will just follow you and cause massive friendly fire witht he juggernautr death explosion

strong bison
toxic owl
strong bison
toxic owl
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there are so many things that can possibly counter juggernauts especially air but allso D guns, now compare that to something like lolcannon, wich doesnt even cost much more really if you make more then 1 jugg

strong bison
strong bison
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Imagine a cheaper Juggernaut, less HP (1.5x Titan), and no nuke upon death. The unit would have great utility. However, it would also simply be a more powerful Titan with a shotgun.

burnt sundial
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Me hugging this thread before it dies for the fourth time and jugg remains unchanged

Avengers-Infinity-War-Spider-Man-death-The-truth-revealed-1447149.jpg
boreal belfry
#

zecrus has viewed this thread... just maybe

boreal belfry
#

also, shouldve done it before (it existed in other mods but it was old) but here's a tweakdef for the proposed rework:

boreal belfry
#

try to use this in your games and drop a feedback

cunning matrix
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Is that tac launcher jug

Yeh I'd just use that everywhere. More fun no downside

copper escarp
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Fixing/Implementing a reworked crush mechanic for certain T3 units would certainly reduce the tick meta that can occur allowing for a larger balance focus outside of the cheap unit defence.

toxic owl
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all it would change is the part where you block t3 units by sending a stream of ticks at them

the actual use of ticks is flanking, giving flanking damage and causing enemy units to shoot at thei feet, even if t3 units crush ticks they are still gonna shoot at their own feet while the ticks aproach

im not against a proper implementation of the crush tho

strong bison
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If you have t3 and can not counter ticks with a juno I think the problem are not ticks ^^'.

boreal belfry
burnt sundial
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Meanwhile titan and sol haves a lot of precision with their main cannons, and jugg loses a lot of dps because shotgun and obviously all of the bullets will not hit the target

foggy cairn
foggy cairn
strong bison
toxic owl
foggy cairn
unborn silo
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I like the dynamic of having juggernauts be offensive t3, and behemoths defensive. When you are overflowing with an afus farm though, you often see behemoth spam instead. This is because juggernauts die like a chain of dominoes. Adding a tac launcher to a juggernaut would explain more of the nuke explosion on death, and it would also make it more of an offensive unit rather than a ridiculously expensive bomb that almost never works.

frigid pike
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It’s more the other way around. Jugg is better defensive for skirmishing units from safety and behe is for pushing and breaking opponent front

toxic owl
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I would say behe is better for both, behe is allso OP AA vs gunships

Jugg is just amphib, that's the advantage, if you need save damage from distance with skirmishing get catapults, they can retreat and shoot infinitely unlike jugg

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1 cata + 1 behe is so much better then 1 jugg and you pay the same

leaden root
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Jugs get overrun easily where as a behemoth is so slow it’s hard to push with so better defensively

willow jewel
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Boo hiss I'm a Frontliner nerf all t3s

boreal belfry
toxic owl
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get 10k metal in reclaim, make gantry, make 1 catapult, eat the gantry again and eco with the ressources

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sigma frontline grindset

trim compass
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at the moment I find the equivalent metal in Demons to infinitely more useful in almost all situations in 8v8, which is all I play. they can deal with spam, they can get to where they're needed (frontline or a falling lane) faster, they have more dps, and they're far easier/safer to build and replenish. by the time I'm able to make a Jugg safely, I'd rather just use the metal to make tick/pawn spam, or a couple more AFUS and end with lolcannon.

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my least favorite part about the Jugg is definitely the underwhelming weapons loadout, specifically the shotgun cannons and missile launcher. I think replacing the current launcher with the catalyst missile as an ability as suggested in this thread would be perfect.

boreal belfry
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juggernauts are expensive, in most scenerios anything else is better, especially behemoth
point is making juggs worth the price (with rework)

juggs are problematic in such sense, like you said, you can use the resources for better stuff
theres also when to build, you can make 3 afuses and still have metal left instead of a juggernaut, either you scale and have time to reppond to emergencies, make units to pressure enemy or risk your time and resource into making a juggernaut

boreal belfry
toxic owl
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making the jugg rocket command fire with big AOE makes it perfect for destroying pulsars and other static defense, people often stack them right next to each other as a wall or even behind one another so 2 tac nukes from jugg could take out 3-6 pulsars, you would still need to step into their range but thats why jugg has a lot of health

you need 2 rockets for killing a pulsar tho

boreal belfry
# toxic owl making the jugg rocket command fire with big AOE makes it perfect for destroying...

had a game where i was getting obliteraed by flagships as a juggernaut (long beach of supreme isthmus to be specific)
if i had titans, i could outrange and dodge some of the attacks from the flagships
as juggernaut, i have to get close while being slow and do miniscule damage because the ships see me coming and kite me (all the ships were combined into a ball in this place)
if the catalyst was on the jugg, i could launch it at the ships to effectively dispair them, defending the coast

toxic owl
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you would just walk into range, fire 2 missiles, get out of range again and try to repair, wich gives players who have an army the opportunity to chase the slow juggernaut who has lost some health to make it explode inside your own army, meanwhile a player who just porks and goes all in on pulsars, will slowly loose them all to the juggernaut who keeps harrassing him overtime.

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right now juggernaut just looses to pulsars, theres no point in trying to use its current rocket launcher to kill pulsars, the lack of AOE means you wont hit the build turrets and the lack of burst DPS means you cant kill a pulsar that is being repaired, on top of that the rockets will target random stuff that often isnt the pulsar, command fire makes this so much better.

trim compass
boreal belfry
# trim compass Sol Invictus also has its own flak cannon, which is crazy OP since it means you ...

same as legion's commander having an aa for some reason while having a better gun against commanders, making scouting near impossible (unless you micro the scout) cause the passive aa one shots it before the scout has a vision on the com anyway

also, i checked again and saw that sol invictus is actually cheaper than the juggernaut, not a small difference by the way, 5.5k metal cheaper than the juggernaut (e cost is same though but still damn)

green vapor
boreal belfry
merry pecan
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One of the ways I can imagine making the juggernaut more reliable, is to give them 5k energy production.
Like a walking generator which explodes.

rain dirge
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I don't know if people have really even tried the jugg in general since the buff tbh.... I have not seen them in any of the games I have played since the update, and I have perosnaly only made them on a meme metal plate game where the map was big enough for that 10% speed buff to maybe not seem like as much. Ussualy speed buffs are some of the best buffs imo.... but is anyone honestly really trying to make juggs? FFA boys... I KNOW you all make juggs at some point, are they feeling any better?>

toxic owl
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Juggs are a little better due to speedbuff yes, but again, you're not getting good DPS, titan gets more, you're getting less movement speed, you're easier to d gun still, and you're not really getting that much range, (couple of vanguards + titan or catapult + behe just way better)

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But allso, the jugg could actually fill a role in the game that we don't quite have yet, most t3 struggles with pulsars or snipers so its only fair if cortex gets the ultimate endgame unit that is good vs those things, since those are armada units

merry pecan
#

The long range rocket of engiman is such a solution

boreal belfry
civic matrix
#

Don't forget to vote on the poll!

Poll

#1405641128220299284 message

steep root
#

Meh

civic matrix
# civic matrix
poll_question_text

Since OP, there was a patch that increased juggernaut speed by 9.2%. how do you feel about the juggernaut now?

victor_answer_votes

21

total_votes

44

victor_answer_id

3

victor_answer_text

Meh

civic matrix
#

update

Sorry for the long wait. The balance team is the slowest at responding to things.

This particular iteration doesn't make the cut. However, it did bring up the question of whether or not the Juggernaut and similar units of great power should have command fire attacks like the Thor does.

Generally, internal sentiment seems receptive. @sly cliff volunteered to rework the juggernaut. Mostly to fix animation bugs, but to also make it feel more satisfying to use along the way.

This thread was instrumental in pushing the issue. Thank you, all of you for participating.

sly cliff
#

I volunteered the same way one volunteers to be admitted to Arkham Asylum

I'll let you guys know how I make out with it

frigid pike
civic matrix
frigid pike
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Oh so it is getting tac nuke?

civic matrix
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Yet to be determined. Zephyrskies is crazy creative with a thing for giant stompy robots. Something command-fire like most likely.

My PSA was more like a "ok, ok already we will do something about it." Haha

burnt sundial
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YES, WE GOT A RESPONSE, YEESS THIS IS A GREAT DAY( i think the gif dosen't work)

fd3838f44c34f0c596e41bd046cfec11.gif
obsidian star
boreal belfry
burnt sundial
#

Cortex mains will be eating good for the next months

cunning matrix
cunning matrix
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It's a win for all levels

Rule of cool for everyone, for core pvp more unique capability that justifies it's slow movespeed and very high cost

short thunder
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I don't particularly love one of the juggs primary uses being a high hp walking nuke but as long as it exists, what if it was buffed to lean into it a little more?

Something like once self d is activated jugg gets a speed boost and some sort of damage reduction ala hunkering buildings during the 10s timer.

Would need some lever to prevent self d cancel micro and would need some graphical work done to make it clear what's happening but it would give it a more unique ability.

merry pecan
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A speedbonus self d sounds fun

civic matrix
cunning matrix
merry pecan
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And only while the self destruct is active

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Or avoid all cheese by having it a special ability.
So you activate that like a launch ability, and you self destruct in X seconds ( may be different than default) and gain an increasing speed boost up to a max.

short thunder
toxic owl
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I think it's counterintuitive that the best use for the jugg is to self D it, a unit like that should look like a rolling bomb and not like something with cool weapons that are way weaker then they look like

unborn silo
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That feature is a liability for mass t3 combat. I said before, lower the explosion by 50% if you die normally, and make it a bit larger if you self destruct. or tac nuke, I guess.

burnt sundial
#

Talking here so I remember this thread and not lose about anything

trim compass
merry pecan
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It should crush smaller units

trail monolith
boreal belfry
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sol invictu

burnt sundial
#

Its never coming

civic matrix
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That is correct. The fellow that was going to rework it as left the project. That kind of leaves this thread in limbo.

No, the balance team wasn't happy with the juggernaut with a catalyst missile stuck to it.

There are animation issues with the juggernaut that really need being resolved.

If a volunteer steps up to work on the animation script, hit me up. We will figure out how to go forward together.

boreal belfry
frigid pike
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How about just a simple change instead of rework

boreal belfry
clever shell
#

Well, does it make sense to do a rework if an overall rework is coming for the whole Cortex faction?

boreal belfry
clever shell
frigid pike
boreal belfry
clever shell
boreal belfry
young narwhal
boreal belfry
young narwhal
willow jewel
#

bro what happened to Tharsis

acoustic notch
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Juggernaut needs a chaingun. Gauss cannon style. Brap Brap Brap... 3-4 rounds a second. 5 second bursts. 5 seconds or longer cool down

Gemini_Generated_Image_cou91scou91scou9.png
boreal belfry
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@civic matrix how does community balance modoption work, can the juggernaut rework attempts be a part of it? (doesnt have to be specifcally tac nuked juggy)

civic matrix
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Yep. Go ahead. Make sure to link back to this one in the post.

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You should probably try to figure out what stat adjustments would be popular with the most people because it'll give it the best shot of actually making it in

idle jewel
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Isn't the point of the behemoth to be the thing that breaks through defences similar to the thor.
Dosnt adding anti proc to the jug just remove the purpose of the behemoth?

If anything adding the missiles to the behe would make more sense. And have the jug more focused as a t3 killer

toxic owl
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unironicly the behemoth is allready the perfect anti T3

idle jewel
toxic owl
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see, thats where jugg with tac nuke could come in very handy, imagine youre trying to kite a behe with a group of titans but youre under fire from tac nukes that kill all your rezbots and allso massacre groups of sharpshooters that might come its way, theres still a place in the middle where if you perfectly micro the titans could shine but it would be one hell of a ride and plenty of opportunities to mess up by stepping to close into behe range, or too far away where titans dont shoot so you take atrition for nothing

#

the advantage over stationary tac nuke here is allso that its constantly moving forward with the behe, and you could use it from within water where you couldnt build one otherwise

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just having the tac nuke on behe seems a bit too strong to me, behe is allready good and if its on jugg instead that encourages a late game unit composition
we rarely see games going for this long i know, its not a critical issue of the game it would just be cool to see

boreal belfry
# idle jewel Isn't the point of the behemoth to be the thing that breaks through defences sim...

this looks funny but i think behe is really good at the moment, literally the only reason i got cortex t3, so i dont think it should be changed, it could actually ruin it by caught in the air or not doing enough damage

if it were to do same amount of damage as dgun it would be broken asf

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1228726264165040278/1434328682758934628/2025-11-02_02-48-47.mp4?ex=6973606e&is=69720eee&hm=d9145448597b8245c5a15364d532bf28976c86091e8834e2aa1feacff3bbcdc4&

▶ Play video
idle jewel
boreal belfry
leaden root
steep root
acoustic notch
# leaden root That idea is cool imo

Maybe 3 rounds max, 5 seconds, a kickback causes a drift so it fires with some degree of control but still somewhat randomly in a tight arc <.

Also if we're going to give the behemoth a fucking nuclear missile... can we maybe give the thor the same missile delivery as at a catapult except make them emp missiles. You know... just to level the playing field.

#

Only thing the Behemoth desperately needs is a model redesign. Ive always thought it looked like an elephant that fell on its face and then in great shock tried to sit back up but couldnt quite manage it. 😂.. Shame

acoustic notch
toxic owl
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You can give the jugg 2 round bursts since the shotguns are double barrels

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It doesn't help a lot tho since it's still aiming super slow

supple tide
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I think the Behemoth is in a good place right now, I'd rather not give it a tactical nuke or anything of the like.

The two minimum changes I'd like to see on the Juggernaut are increasing its vision to 950, so it can see as far as its laser can shoot, and remove the death explosion (which is not the same as the self-destruction detonation) so it can actually be part of a unit composition without being a massive liability.

frigid pike
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jugg would instantly be 10x better if t2 trans wasnt most broken thing in the game

placid jolt
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I’d say that legion doesn’t need the command fire like core would, legion already has all the utility they need. Or the jug could be given a mobile shield which might make it a better spearhead for pushes

civic matrix
boreal belfry
# civic matrix Why?

i think hes talking about out dropping coms for dguns
also can you remove the cooldown on this channel its kind of annoying

#

Juggernaut is horrible in terms of price to performace
Titan is a cheap walking pulsar that is considerably fast (strong against sea as well)
Sol Invictus is a multi-target aoe dps beast, and is CHEAPER than juggernaut

Juggernaut costs 9k more metal than behemoth (nearly 2 catapults woth), with slow speed, has innacurate gun, useless rocket launcher with a middling heat ray and the only good way to utilize juggernaut is to walk to porcs and self-d, even if the heat ray has a faster reload than titan laser its worse than it, the innacurate gun doesnt perform well against high hp targets from far away and misses most of the time against smaller t2s

There's no reason to make a juggernaut instead of a behemoth, other than bad terrain.

Even against commanders, behemoth annihilates them while juggernauts dont even destroy them with explosions (up to some degree)

frigid pike
# civic matrix Why?

because unless you have total air superiority over the jugg you can just drop a com on the most expensive unit in the game and delete 29k and set off a double nuke in enemies army

boreal belfry
#

behe sees one blip and that commander is nothing more than ashes

frigid pike
civic matrix
#

Combine that with some AA ability from the Juggernaut like being able to one-shot trans outta the sky with eye laser, maybe that ain't so bad.

#

Unless you're talking about dropping them well well out of range and having the commander just sit there ready to ambush from cloak. I suppose the issue there is mostly repositioning... I don't think Juggernaut buffs can counteract that

frigid pike
civic matrix
frigid pike
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what to see the trans far out and try to react in time to it?

boreal belfry
boreal belfry
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i think it kind of makes it like a big razor

woeful harness
#

it does sound a bit better at actualy killing bigger unit the lack of anti spam is not a huge deal titan don't have anti spam so it's fair

civic matrix
# boreal belfry

Looks like a less cosmetically appealing whatever that super heat ray mech is for Legion

boreal belfry
civic matrix
#

My boy the juggernaut deserves more than copypastas

frigid pike
civic matrix
frigid pike
#

#1462625474344783872 message

acoustic notch
# boreal belfry i think it kind of makes it like a big razor

I dont vibe this. Good effort though. And always helpful to have video to see early prototypes. I think the extra lazers detracting away from the juggs legendary sound design and main ray weapon. Diluting that with other lasers hurts more than it helps. It would be shame to bury that awesome ray cannon behind other stuff. Also the jug may be the only mech unit with heavy gauss cannon, when i think of it I think of the c130 gunships main auto turret. That thngs that fires those high yield shells and just whoop the llamas ass .
Like doof doof doof doof doof doof doof doof doof doof... cool down....

Also legion already is just a wall of op heat rays these days and you wouldn't necessarily want the jug to add to that mess ,so t3 is actually missing a heavy auto turret chaingun thing.

toxic owl
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this little rocket is looking very puny, even if we dont get tac nuke on jugg it definetly needs a visual overhaul and more oomph to it

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you would think a 30k metal t3 unit shooting a slow ass rocket every few seconds would have more oomph then the t2 heavy tank cannon but no

west shard
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The Air LOS 1260 -> 1600 change seems like a good change.

Visually it makes sense since for how tall the jugg is.

Can't really say much on the metal change since I never made a jugg before.

boreal belfry
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got a question, does the rocket even do anything in juggernaut?
what's the point of using the rocket in such scenerios as well?

toxic owl
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the rocket has slightly more range then the laser, its supposed to be a siege tool, if we dont get the tac nuke it should at least get a cooler looking rocket model with an AOE as large as a Tzar or Shiva shell and it would be good

acoustic notch
# toxic owl double barrel tzar cannon goes hard

This looks promising... but the jugg is completely left exposed to be collapsed on in fast unit rush tactics. Is there anything that challenges that? The shotgun? Is it not possible to make that stomp hardcore op, so that even rushed the very movement of jug will be able to shatter light units

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Stopping juggernauts needs to be a commitment. 1 player should necessarily be required to get assistance.

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I think thors should get a range increase, that lightning weapon is ultra unique... it should have a serious wow factor

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t3 units should be the pinnacle of design and destructive power. Everything they do should be OP

civic matrix
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Welllllllll
If the back rockets suck, it's because they can miss maybe. Could steal rocket from the Missile Ships for the big AOE. Launch two at a time.

toxic owl
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i thought about that before too, the ship cluster missiles are very underused in game

civic matrix
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That frees up the shotgun arms for something else. Maybe inaccurate high velocity gauss?

civic matrix
#

Also I have concerns that quad mega AOE gonna hurt too good.

toxic owl
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i took the exact stats from the tzar just to try it, wasnt a serious attempt

leaden root
civic matrix
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Maybe do something like kargenath with rapid fire continuous cannons that isn't very accurate. Like those mini-calamities.

toxic owl
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the jugg shotgun arms are terrible for anti spam because they take too long too aim, propably better to make it anti heavy units or something, its never gonna be anti spam in its current version

toxic owl
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i tried giving jugg the ship missile, and well, the ship missile uses the "cannon" weapon type wich causes a not so great looking firing animation on jugg where the projectiles dont come out of the missile tubes

switching to the starburst rocket weapon actually worked together with the cluster missiles still triggering but they allways targeted at the same range no matter how far the enemy is away so gameplay wise that isnt working despite it being visually perfect

short thunder
west shard
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What about the messenger/longbow weapon for the Jugg's hand weapons?

boreal belfry
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maybe juggernaut could also use a small AA, not many units have AA as a secondary weapon
or nah

toxic owl
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the rocket would have its use vs sharpshooters, just the laser and the arm cannons wont be enough to counter them

boreal belfry
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ok, got an idea, you guys know Zero-K's detriment right? what if juggernaut has something similiar to detriment's special weapon "obliteration blaster", it launches 10 high damage aoe projectiles ito specificed location, but it has a long cooldown, what about something similiar to that, not tac missile but special obliteration weapon with long cooldown

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@proven spire do you think it can work, can bar handle such thing like that?

proven spire
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what? How should I know what BAR can handle? I recall reading some years ago that some part of the core dev team was against activatable abilities, or at least wouldn't want to add active abilities (eg dgun is probably fine because it already exists). It looks like such a restriction made it into the "game design document"

All units use common control functionality. Individual unit abilities and commands should be avoided unless they are central features of a given unit (as nuke is for a nuke silo)
so it sounds like the BAR det can't have a giant shoulder cannon. My guess is that it can't even have a tacnuke.

proven spire
#

Ok scrolling up the design document seems to be contradicting what was said above? So then why not just go for it? It sounds cool and doesn't even need to really work to be cool. But here is a bit to think about:
The thing about BAR T3 and Zero-K striders is that they are similar on paper but exist in completely different economies.
BAR is about booming your economy and eventually accruing a large enough advantage to overwhelm the enemy with stuff. No matter how large your economy is, you can always scale it up and make even more. So there is a window between the largest unit being affordable, and the largest unit being spammable (or at least where you are managing a handful). If the largest unit isn't actually any good though, then the spammed unit is something smaller. Spamming a unit with an active ability is a bit of a pain.
The Zero-K economy doesn't scale arbitrarily far. Technically you can have unlimited income, but the return on investment drops off to the point that there is a range of natural stopping points. In this situation, making the largest unit always takes a noticeable chunk of investment, and what you're getting out of it is either a sudden win, or the ability to efficiently use the unit then repair it, making an attrition gain against the enemy. The long-reload shoulder mounted obliteration blaster works because it fits the way the unit is used (at least when it doesn't win outright): Attack, deal some damage, retreat to repair, and repeat.
Idk what the largest unit people use in BAR is, but how often do people pick the damaged ones out of battle for repairs? I would like to know because I could easily be surprised by the answer. But I've got a good guess that it would be less often than in Zero-K, because there holding onto forces is one of the main ways to grow an army advantage. In BAR the main way is via constantly scaling economy, so throwing stuff into the meatgrinder is more the way to go.

acoustic notch
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Yes but the game has devolved into full on jumanji by the time anyone can spam juggernaut with enough vigour to justify calling it spamming juggernauts. By that point everyone's probably on 3fps anyway and ptaq is trying to find his car keys 😂

acoustic notch
toxic owl
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yes i tried it out and it would require more work then a tweak, at least to my knowledge

i managed to make the regular small jugg rocket explode into the ship missile clusters, but it would allways do so at the same range making it unable to aim

using the exact same weapon type as the ship (wich is the cannon weapon type) results in bad cosmetic effects where the rockets fly through the juggs body