How to Casual-ify BAR PVP

[marsh garden]

Just because I've watched him, doesn't mean I agree with him.

[native umbra]

If you’re not actually using AI to write for you it’s hard to tell because the quality of the arguments and writing style suggest otherwise

[marsh garden]

What can I say? I try to be as clear as I can when I write.

[native umbra]

1. It makes it easier for players to execute their strategy. (More time to think and macro, less time spent organizing units.)

These games are more real time than strategy.

2. High-intensity micro, particularly for extended periods of time, has led to injuries. This of course happens in other genres as well, but if we can reduce the risk of injury without detracting from the game experience or competitive spirit, then I think we should.

No one is playing BAR full time as a job. Even among those who play a lot I've heard of no injuries.

3. I personally don't feel like intense micro is as important of a pillar of RTS games as a genre as the resource management and strategic decision making. It is still necessary to some extent in order to remain distinct from an autobattler.

Of course unit control is central to RTS so this point makes no sense

I dont even understand what you want the game to look like - the units just micro themselves or something? is that supposed to be fun

[marsh garden]

For 1, 2, and 3, I'm mainly comparing BAR to SC:BW in terms of ease of unit control, I much prefer BAR.
For this:

the units just micro themselves or something? is that supposed to be fun
refer to this:
To be clear, I'm not arguing for anything like the auto-skirmish widget, the existing Patrol and Fight command behaviors are good enough, and manually maneuvering units is good for skill expression.

[native umbra]

OK then what are you arguing for because that's the logical result of removing unit control skill

[marsh garden]

I'm arguing that the custom keybinds for unit selection (below health threshold, land units on screen) could be acceptable if they are readily accessible for anybody without needing to edit a text file.
Edit: Following the same logic as the line-drag features being QoL.

[native umbra]

Making those default keybinds doesnt even do what youre saying. it just means that skilled players will use those keybinds to magically move back every damaged unit at the same time perfectly and a noob will be getting farmed by a perfect robot effectively

btw if you hate the real time aspect of real time strategy games just go play civ 6 or something. theres a reason real time is 2/3 of the name

[marsh garden]

Making those default keybinds also means that the blocker for that skill expression is a knowledge check rather than a dexterity check. Maybe that isn't what you want, but it could make the game more accessible to some, once we have good tutorials.

[native umbra]

yeah dont you think that makes the game pretty bland when 90% of the player population will be doing the exact same inputs - there is zero skill expression

[marsh garden]

My hope is that all of the QoL features BAR has (and could have) could lead to more varied and interesting strategies, and that would be where the diverse and interesting gameplay would come from.

[true kindle]

Bar is a micro heavy game, out of all the rts games out there it lets you have the most control over your units and allows you to win through skill of micro, i really dont know why you want to remove that

[marsh garden]

How do conditional selection hotkeys remove that when all they do is increase the amount of control you can have?

I suppose the idea of conditional selection hotkeys is probably a topic for discussion in a dedicated thread, but considering the amount of friction around the idea of features that, to me at least, don't seem that different from stuff we already have (autogroups, repeat-orders, line-drag orders), I have to ask:

Is this resistance to change because it inherently reduces the skill-gap (this specific skill) between players who are good at manually selecting their damaged units and those who aren't? (I haven't seen any arguments against making it easier to select land units under air units yet)

[merry light]

Airwalls due to their nature are all over the place. They could be excluded from land selections automatically, same as constructors or coms dont get selected

[native umbra]

yeah there could be a modifier key like capslock or something to select air units only

[true kindle]

you already have that control, youre just dumbing it down
and maybe its just this right now but what about later when were having the same conversation with something worse

[native umbra]

I'm just resistant to changes suggested by people who know nothing about the thing they want to change

[marsh garden]

I've taken some more time to think about the issue, so here are my thoughts.
The "Select units below x% health" keybind is currently supported in the game.
I was previously arguing against its removal because it seemed like it was a QoL feature like many other controls already in the game, but I have come to realize that not all QoL features are created equal. It isn't my place to argue about where that particular line is.

My current opinion:

• Having features that can have significant impact on how well someone plays, that aren't bound or even hinted at by the default control schemes ingame or on the website, and cannot be bound ingame, just feels wrong. Fixing this likely requires ingame keybinding support and a decision to be made about what features are desirable, if any, or just removing them outright.
• There should be a discussion (if there hasn't already) involving skilled players and developers about where exactly is the line between an acceptable and desired QoL feature like the ones advertised on the website, and unacceptable or undesirable ones.

[true kindle]

^

[green pecan]

I could see the argument for or against its' existance

personally I think it existing is fine

but it is NONSENSE that you have to edit your file to get to it, and is otherwise completely hidden. IMO it's cheating

[merry light]

What are the chances of including someone officially in charge of this matter to get an explanation of why they want it the current way or start moving towards a fix? @broken wave

[broken wave]

Best shot is it make it its own well reasoned Suggestion. Gets a bunch of reactions and I shuffle it over to the GDT. Then something gets stated in Game Design Document.
Maybe someone notices in the GDD or the suggestion thread and does something about it. I'm not optimistic tho.

I suspect the answer will ultimately be in-game customizable key bind menu. Might show up in the not too distant future after some rmlui tools got finished.

[merry light]

That would be great. Definitely no DIY stuff.

[broken wave]

I think suggestion thread should probably come first to help influence the community's desired outcome. However, it seems the majority of people would be most happy with key bindable Health percentage select

[merry light]

I feel like there needs to be a menu with options to bind.
What options to bind as a question would have to be popular reasonable request with official approval.

Whats the standard-ish number of reactions to get something sent upwards for consideration?

[broken wave]

I like to wait till around 10 but there is no hard rule. I wait that long usually so I can get a decent sample size for Community sentiment

[merry light]

Will try to get it done after work