#Optimal Geo Opening on Supreme

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young minnow
shy finch
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Ty

young minnow
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I think I've found the most optimal Geo opening in the current meta.

Some timings to note:

2:30 Geo complete
4:30 T2 Lab complete
4:40 First Mauser complete
10:20 T2 Geo complete (with 6 mausers)

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Notes:

  • With stronger opening wind you could get this even faster (I think we stalled at like 2 wind for quite a bit)
  • Early lab reclaim leaves you vulnerable (reclaimed with rez bots immediately after geo is complete)
  • Reclaiming con bots leaves you vulnerable (reclaimed with rez bots immediately before T2 is complete)
  • This is high APM and high mindfulness required (I'd recommend practicing 4-5 times before taking it into a real game)
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Will made a video about it, but it will take a while to be posted as I have a backlog of BAR content

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If anyone finds a way to improve upon, let me know.

kind yacht
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cheers

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will take a look, been a while since I touched geo builds

young minnow
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Write up:

Opening:
Mex x 2
Wind x 3 (add up to 2 more wind sub 10 wind, or solar if sub 3 wind)
Bot Lab -> 3 Laz, 2 Con
Wind x 2 (boost units out while making wind, once wind's completed, begin reclaiming lab if stalling on E ()
Laz 1 -> trees, Laz 2 -> trees, Laz 3 -> Rocks x 2 then trees
Con 1 -> drop Geo blueprint, then to sea mex and back and help build Geo
Con 2 -> to other mex, then trees
Commander -> cycling between reclaiming lab and constructing Geo (dependent on wind, always let E go to constructors making mex's)

After Geo is complete:
Con 1 -> drop 2x nano in reach of all 3 mex and geo, commander to help, then build 8 energy converters with commander + nanos.
Con 2 -> helps build 2x nano, then builds vehicle lab facing the mex it build with enough space for a T2 lab
Laz 1 and 2 -> Reclaim bot lab, both con bots, then commander
Laz 3 -> eat other two stacks of rocks then back to eating trees
Make T1 con vehicle from vehicle lab, make an instant T2 lab immediately next to the mex
Send commander to blow, then send Laz 1 and 2 to eat him, send con vehicle to finish eating commander, then laz 1 and 2 eat the con vehicle while he eats the commander 🧠
Make 4x mauser + Prophet, then T2 con.
Touch mex, then quickly make their T2 mex blueprints, before returning back to finish rest of T2 mex

stoic gull
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Does this work similarly for cor or is the build very min maxed and can't afford the more expensive winds? As afaik cor veh t2 is generally considered better than arm t2 pre starlight phase

young minnow
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Also works for core. But no consul means you can’t reclaim T1 con or easily scale remote BP

stoic gull
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considerable to do this open into cor bot t2 instead if cor tbh. And go for some sort of semi meme strat of twitcher rushing to front and making perse and fiends on repeat or even destroyers or ducks whilst you reclaim base to make t2 mex and ageo

young minnow
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Blue prints help reduce decision making

image.png
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second one

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timing:

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kind yacht
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I would be more motivated to develop builds like these if fine optimizations weren't rendered pointless by metal begging πŸ˜”

young minnow
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have to control what you can, ofc a build like this gets beaten by enemy geo just feeding 400m to tech and getting their con transported to them at 4 mins

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but yes i agree with you, the two games i tested with it, my frontliner fed me 2k metal both times so completely through out my results haha

agile siren
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optimising builds is fun regardless of the option of being fed metal existing

unless the only reason you enjoy it is because it gives you an advantage in game, in which case, sure, you do you

kind yacht
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Is it really such a foreign concept to optimize in a game in order to gain an advantage?

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It can be fun but not being able to see value from it in practice is a big turn off.

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You can optimize your D tier deck but you will not be able to see much benefits from your work because the meta invalidates it

agile siren
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you either enjoy it for its own sake or dont

but coming to a place where other people who do enjoy optimising D tier decks are talking about it, and telling them how much you dont like it seems kind of silly

kind yacht
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I'm a huge solo optimizer, much more so than you, this is a gripe that a lot of us share.
there are many people on SI who like to optimize solo builds

stoic ocean
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I'm curious if com 3 mex is better or not

young minnow
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im literally testing it right now

2:20 mex complete
2:30 geo complete

0:40 mex complete
3:18 geo complete

earlier mex gives 230 more metal
earlier geo gives 206 more metal

99% sure it is BUT it is dependent on timing i can get nanos up

kind yacht
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the general thing I got from testing is that 2 mex only good if wind is good. If wind is bad 2 mex is poo
since you need to get fast rez bot and geo timing to compensate for lost metal

2 mex is faster on BP and E but short on metal, so you really have to find ways to make up the lost metal

stoic ocean
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Why is geo so much slower on 3 mex? Does it really take 50 seconds to get the other mex with com? I would have expected a linear time delay going for the third mex

kind yacht
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the general thing I got from testing is that 2 mex only good if wind is good. If wind is bad 2 mex is poo
since you need to get fast rez bot and geo timing to compensate for lost metal

2 mex is faster on BP and E but short on metal, so you really have to find ways to scrounge up metal

it's the walk time, plus a bit of time to walk back, shouldn't be 50 sec

young minnow
midnight flint
kind yacht
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The lab cost reduction benefits 2 mex but Im not sure if 2mex better htan 3 mex
technically 1st mauser timing isn't everything, you can have slower 1st mauser but faster 2nd mauser due to metal stalling

stoic ocean
stoic ocean
kind yacht
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yeah the t2 lab cost is a big m bottleneck

young minnow
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I just realized for whatever reason - i'm uploading the wrong files to discord ?? these aren't the replays I thought I uploaded.

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Current working:

2 Mex opening:

2:18 Mex 3 complete -234.6M
2:18 Mex 4 complete +50.6M
2:33 Geo complete +55.7M

3 Mex opening:

0:36 Mex 3 complete +234.6M
2:40 Mex 4 complete -50.6M
2:46 Geo complete -55.7M

So 3 Mex opening is 128.3M better.

young minnow
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What's interesting, is that with a perfect run, you still end up getting the Mauser at the same time (and complete it with 130 metal in the bank LOL)

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young minnow
kind yacht
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afus more views tho :3

young minnow
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IDK why but skirmish wind is so fucking terrible, i have to reroll like 15 times before i get 1 minute of straight 14-19 wind

kind yacht
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you can set a fixed wind using tweak units
use the base64 converted code

  armwin = { 
    windgenerator = 0,
    energyupkeep = -11
  },
  corwin = {
    windgenerator = 0,
    energyupkeep = -11
  }
}

tweak units
ewogIGFybXdpbiA9IHsgCiAgICB3aW5kZ2VuZXJhdG9yID0gMCwKICAgIGVuZXJneXVwa2VlcCA9IC0xMQogIH0sCiAgY29yd2luID0gewogICAgd2luZGdlbmVyYXRvciA9IDAsCiAgICBlbmVyZ3l1cGtlZXAgPSAtMTEKICB9Cn0



{
  armwin = { 
    windgenerator = 0,
    energyupkeep = -14.2
  },
  corwin = {
    windgenerator = 0,
    energyupkeep = -14.2
  }
}

ewogIGFybXdpbiA9IHsgCiAgICB3aW5kZ2VuZXJhdG9yID0gMCwKICAgIGVuZXJneXVwa2VlcCA9IC0xNC4yCiAgfSwKICBjb3J3aW4gPSB7CiAgICB3aW5kZ2VuZXJhdG9yID0gMCwKICAgIGVuZXJneXVwa2VlcCA9IC0xNC4yCiAgfQp9
young minnow
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I would, but last time I did that people left hundreds of hate comments at the thought i'd even consider relying on averaged wind speed

kind yacht
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guess it's back to wind gambling

young minnow
kind yacht
young minnow
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its hard to know, cause its nice having the mex up when you're low on wind

but the sooner you have your lab up the sooner you can get your laz out - and the sooner you get to +57e

limber dagger
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did u make the video already?

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im too lazy to read rip but from what i see, i think after geo is done its better to place a second estorage following it up with 1-2nanos, to not be egoistic ofcourse, but to keep the E to later convert. And then go for converters

Also the issue for me most of the time when boosting geo with com was that i had no E so i make E Storage before geo, and send all my laz to eat the trees rocks are not really needed for geo, but needed later ofc

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im pretty sure the 3 mex opener remains better, since you are going to need all the metal advantage you have later more

strong glen
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Nice tests and thanks for sharing the results! πŸ™
Don't you E-stall a bit with only 3 lazarus (and no E storage) while making your t1 geo?

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I wonder how worse the time would be for the full 4 mexes walk (should give more leftover metal in return?)

limber dagger
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the 4 mex walk seems bad tto me since if u compare that with 3mex walk starting from 2mex spot u are alr ahead of 4mex walk by the time their 3 mex finish, and on top u have ur geo faster since u dont really need the 4th mex for making the geo anyways. and geo is ur top priority there

hidden talon
strong glen
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It just delays everything by the time required to make those units 🀷

limber dagger
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also considerung most of the beach guys do the same deal its not really a delay in ur build xdd

strong glen
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Doesn't the strategy imply you use 2nd con for eating trees? Then you can't give it away -- perhaps you can tweak the build by making 2 rez instead of rez+con, give the con and use the additional rez to east faster

limber dagger
strong glen
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I don't follow. If you need to make units and someone is paying, the delay is the time required to produce the units. And you end up with a little more metal in the bank in the end

limber dagger
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as i said my problem for most of the time is i dont have enough E for boosting geo with com, so i noticed that u can minmax the build by sending all rez to spots where there are lots of trees, so they dont need to travel around, when boosting ur geo so u dont stall E after using up all the stored E

limber dagger
young minnow
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so the main problem with the con + rez bot is the energy, so just better to pump it out with commander before commiting to geo, definitely does delay you 5 seconds though. and I just send first con bot to sea, and second con bot to eat trees, so its just commander building geo

limber dagger
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im pretty sure 2 laz is enough to boost the rest of the stuff out the lab, u can try 2laz con, laz and con

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since 1 metal is 70E, u need to priorize the mexes in ur build, maybe even 2laz 2 con and then the rest

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sr on good wind, 2laz and the wind you have built before lab is enough to keep ur com boosting the lab

young minnow
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5 x wind x 19 = 95 e
3 x laz = 171 e
1 x con = 43 e

total = 309 e

commander building geo by himself = 298 e

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just be sure to bring con back for nanos in time

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limber dagger
young minnow
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yes

limber dagger
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so with the first t2 con u tap ur mex and share it to front? or how do you go about it?

strong glen
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If you have metal in the bankroll at the end, perhaps removing 1 (or even 2) e-conv can speed up the process a tiny little bit.
With the additional 300e from Geo, you can't still fully power up 8 conv. And you make stuff just after so some E goes there.

hidden talon
spark helm
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I think if you care about winning instead of Mauser timing, it's better to add e storage to that build after nanos

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And few additional winds, built by com and two cons and nanos makes it a small time waste but adds more versatility in what you can do with your T2

kind yacht
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in a tight build you don't need estorage
u convert or dump all your energy into the lab, and all your e gen is constant

If you are playing arm bots you might need it for sharpshooter, but needing it is just a downside

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it wouldn't be a problem to build e storage but you are very m gated so building e storage slows down your mauser, t2 con and 1st t2 mex

spark helm
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depends on the situation I guess, if front is in a state that doesnt favour straight mauser then it's better to have some more E

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for a "youtube build" this is perfect

kind yacht
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for most other positions where you don't have a geo + rez bots I would agree
I think the only thing you'd make is t2 con or consul rattle. If you had to make starlight you could make starlight first, then the e storage as the starlight is walking

stoic ocean
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I think a single E store is usually helpful almost no matter what. Assuming you get 19E from winds the whole time is hilarious though

narrow jasper
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Say would this work for cortex our would the timing will get slowed down considerably?

stoic ocean
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Should be almost identical

young minnow
young minnow
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watching a high OS game, where two players in both Geo spots, were significantly behind on their arm t2 vehicle labs (both after 5:30)

the first one lost 3 mexes, some wind and a laz to pincers that came in at the 5:30 mark from pond.
the second one had their front pushed in at 6:00 by a stronger enemy front.

I suspect with how tight this build is, it will quickly trend to becoming meta (both of these instances are countered by an earlier T2 lab, the first with jags, the second with mausers)

limber dagger
kind yacht
limber dagger
kind yacht
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using the 2nd con to suck trees is a nice innovation

kind yacht
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you can give one of the rez bots after geo finishes
and sell the far con
yeah it's better than the current geo build i think

I eat the buildings a bit differently but this way of building the geo is better

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Here I walk the rez to eat the wreck, it would be better to just keep eating the cons. Since you need to eat the for metal

image.png
kind yacht
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@young minnow only 3 rez bot and use con to eat tree is good build
i copy that part : )

night yacht
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would making estorage before lab if starlight rush help build it faster or is it just better to build while its walking
also if ur starlight is out when do you go ageo cuz building it sucks all the e i need to shoot it and vice versa

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should i just wait until i dink enemy geo t2 with starlight before going for ageo and amex

young minnow
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i feel like starlight should always come after ageo, like if you wanna open starlight or sniper probably better buying T2 + trans and upping 3 T2 mexes and ageo, i havent done the exact timings, but i know banisher is typically hitting the front around 5:30-6:00, and you can get geo + 3 mex up before 6:00, then blow com and go straight into lab and starlights, might be a bit too late tho

otherwise, can just put down the e storage after geo and another one after first starlight is finished

kind yacht
night yacht
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ahh ok makes sense thanks

limber dagger
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building one right after geo is finished and for the second i do it before going ageo u fill up the storage fast

young minnow
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think it might even make sense to do a second/third one before ageo
i find i keep stalling on ageo no matter what (unless fed by team - which is fine)

kind yacht
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it's better just to make winds while you making the ageo imo
you don't need a storage if you can just put the energy directly into the ageo

robust echo
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Btw, did you try solars instead of winds? Solars mean faster rezbots so faster solid e income

robust echo
hidden talon
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How impactful would it be to quickly reclaim those two solars when you start to metal stall on the T2 lab?

robust echo
kind yacht
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you finish with only 2 winds

kind yacht
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It's done for tzar rushes where you need the metal cause you stall at the end

stoic ocean
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Solar let you guarantee an outcome completely independent of the wind level. I guess it depends on if the outcome of good wind is enough better than solar to be worth the risk.

Solar is obviously way, way better than bad wind given how badly you can get wind screwed, especially since the rezbot build becomes almost completely independent of the wind level once you get them out

young minnow
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The biggest issue you have with the solar, as pointed out above, is BP. The BP is justifable in the early game, but the trouble comes later on when you reclaim the solar and are left with no winds. This is particularly noticable if you do it before Geo. I did actually try this because it means more energy to spend on laz, therefore faster laz, therefore more energy sooner, but eventually the wind returns to average or above average, and you lose out then. Interesting thought though, I'd love to see some hard math on it. I think it's only optimal to solar if below 2-3 wind and you've already added like 4-5 winds

stoic ocean
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You have a ton of rezbots, is it really so expensive to reclaim and rebuild solar as winds? I'm unconvinced the BP diff really matters. IMO it's largely an argument about whether to avoid getting wind screwed. Granted, you can probably dodge 90% of the issue by just not risking wind if it's low by the time you are building E

kind yacht
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yeah even if you have more metal you are poorer e later which hurts you if you when you build the ageo

hidden talon
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Would getting the T2 lab/con out slightly sooner via the reclaimed solar give you a slight bit of room for more wind turbines at that point?

young minnow
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I do kinda like the 2x solar. one before lab and one after. I'll see if i can work it.

kind yacht
young minnow
kind yacht
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what's the point of the estorage?

young minnow
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i dont even know
LOL
i just did it naturally because im using T2 purchase from tech

robust echo
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I think you need it to have spare e while rezbots eat com

kind yacht
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ah, yes t2 purchase from tech strong

young minnow
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let me try again without E storage and better reclaim prio

robust echo
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I think you also don't need that many converters, they were idle anyways

hidden talon
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Could of moved the conversion bar low during the lab making to take advantage of the extra energy.

kind yacht
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at a certain point you might as well work on your mauser targeting
5-10 sec faster mauser only matters if you micro decent

young minnow
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ok, got it to 4:30

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with a fucking huge wind stall btw LOL
holy fuck that was a bad stall
single player wind is so much worse than multiplayer wind
(was actually 4:27, damn solar, you good)

hidden talon
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I suggest having the com make one converter immediatly after the geo is finished. Half of that time after the geo is finished could of had one extra metal made until you did the other 3 later. You would be assisting the con turrets probably 1/2 seconds later if that. Having the com closer to where you start the con turrets via its walk to the geo would help cut that down too.

It might mean you can keep a solar til later on for more metal by the converter.

young minnow
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agreed

kind yacht
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better to make con turrets before converters

hidden talon
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Its the timing of the con walking the com has a moment there.

young minnow
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ideally that con should leave at 70% geo complete

hidden talon
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I honestly dont see the need for the com to start helping the botlab reclaim unless there are instances that the vehicle lab metal stalls on its creation.

kind yacht
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you can reclaim buildings last minute you need the metal
the timing you want to optimize is the moment the com starts building the nanos. since finishing the geo doesn't actually do anything until you move onto the next step

hidden talon
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That is also true but one converter at that stage will give you potentially 60 ish extra metal or more if the team is overflowing energy into you. That could be used for a emergency sentry and still have extra metal.

And if not it can be used to buy a T2 con sooner from eco or rush a T2 con if they got attacked.

stoic gull
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well like you said. If team overflows. This is a solo build order so things will change if you are in team setting and there are external factors such as overflow.

hidden talon
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True but even one with the geo will be making you metal for at least 40 seconds if its done immediately. The only point I see it dropping below the conversion rate in the video above is when Drongo is making the other converters with the build turrets and when the T2 lab is being made.

strong glen
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Is the 2nd con necessary or would it be better to make a 4th rez instead to reclaim faster?
In the last video, it reclaims all the time and barely starts a con turret where the 1st con is coming 1sec later.

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Btw very nice build, it really feels like one of the fastest you can do πŸ‘

stoic ocean
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I guess winds being strong is the only reason tech still bothers with a T2 lab (butlers OP), otherwise you'd reverse the procedure and have tech buy T2 off geo :D

stoic ocean
fast tendon
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not specific to this build, but i generally recommend setting your cons / nanos to default low priority in settings and toggle commander to low priority at start of the game. this way you never lose out on metal from mex stalling on energy. can always toggle to high prio for specific things later on.

stoic gull
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Nano is low by default nowadays

stoic gull
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Would hover rocket be an interesting alternative to t2? Just because it comes online even faster. Though it would require t2 from eco most likely. But you could probably do it potentially even without comm self d and be able to have 3/4 comms on front.

limber dagger
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It has the range of T1 arti with the advantage of being able to shoot whilst moving, in comparison any T2 arti has more range and AoE damage prb than the rocket launchers

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Geo making units makes a difference when front is equal, so making T2 units faster than enemy geo makes more difference but you could also pump T1 lot earlier and create the difference in that way but u might lose to a T2 unit later

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If you have a clear goal set and know what to do and when to do it you going to win vs lots of players

stray robin
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Yeah. It is insane how much better you play once you graduate from "Idk what I am doin" to "I have clear plan every moment"

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But imo, hover rocket is useless in situation where sea is still contested.

However. I think using hover tank instead of hover scout might be the way. These guy are basically 80% as good as medium tank statwise.

Or maybe mix, hover tank in front to tank llt and hover scout to kill eco

The slow speed will be a problem tho, the element of surprise is everything after all

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Maybe, it would be worth it to look into cortex amphi lab build. Salamander and "Tzar from Temu" are pretty good

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Amphi have the advantage of being invisible to radar while underwater.

Maybe combine with commander walk + dgun XD

limber dagger
thorny tusk
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good luck guys

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robust echo
thorny tusk
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if I steal a few rock I can do sub 4m

thorny tusk
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couple rocks were stolen

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stoic gull
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What's the cook? or is this the drongo strat but with optimisation

kind yacht
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the t2 lab doesnt' actaully do anything tho
you could optimize for making that and have nothing for the continuation

thorny tusk
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it wasnt a cheese no continuation build I had 3 mauser at 5 without stealing rock

stoic gull
young minnow
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i think there is definitely a world where we send a laz or two mid to steal rocks, and then reclaim them after they've eaten the rocks (maybe link them up with the actual laz that eats rocks after geo is up)

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but a 3:42 lab? front would never fall again KEKW

stray robin
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just commie with a front player and get all the reclaim in mid

fathom heron
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the start is really interesting. I feel it is not much viable for the following reason:
T1 con/rez are not included for short sea (delays a bit)
If you have any kind of leak, the whole metal saving for an early rush is messed up.
You don't really setup much E prod except geo which means you will have to scale after mausers and it can be detrimental on a usual 8 min timing.
Mausers are strong but any kind of error from you or your frontline can result in a loss of them, and your eco doesn't allow you to replace them easily (the idea is ennemy geo will have T2 pushing during that time so it's a massive bet).
Your nano can't help much upgrading the T2 mexes, which might be optimized in your build.
Also I really like with a T2 con first unit, tap a mex, and send it to short sea so you don't have (ideally) to worry about defending short sea. It's a choice that leads to later T2 on front but I usually find it better this way especially when going armada veh.

kind yacht
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mauser benefits a lot from teamwork on the front ESP the front understanding where their com can stand and when they can push forward / use their rocket bots to knock down llts
for example, whenever the t2 clashes with t2 you can use your units/com, the enemy is not going to shoot your t1/com because they have to shoot your t2

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proper frontliner+geo feels like a moba honestly. with tank and dps

fathom heron
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Just saying, most of the lobbys are not suitable for such a strat
Also, such early mausers means you have to scale eventually (E prod/ T2 mex), so you stop the T2 units and the ennemy geo on current build will have scaled already and might be able to spam T2 units on repeat. It's a clearer point than my previous message

kind yacht
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if you want to be more independent i reccomend doing twitcher/sheldon or something. the twitcher can reclaim metal and build twinguards without relying on team
once you eat enough metal and later add 3-6 twitchers you can literally play the front solo by using the reclaim

fathom heron
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also sheldon are a massive counter to starlight/mauser, and skuttle/ducks are OP to help/retake sea. I have to check the twitch persecutor start tbh, I never thought of that but as twitchers are very fast, it might be good

kind yacht
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skuttle has major dmg reduction against ships, wouldn't reccomend it unless there's a huge frigate ball.

small amounts of sumo or mammoth are useful, you can reclaim sheldons after. The stealth OP combo imo is 3 sumos into shivas

fathom heron
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skuttle are more a T2 lab sniper imo, also can send one on suicide spot
sniping a T2 sea lab with a skuttle is like 1.5k metal worth + the delay for your sea to win

kind yacht
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sumo shiva is like way better than salamander shiva

fathom heron
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I don't really like shiva, I prefet catapult. Also I usually get a catalyst on front to prevent any T1 push or destrooy porc/base. I let eco get the T3 out and end the game. I micro the sheldon in the meantime

strong glen
stray robin
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Mauser when the dreadful medium tank come rolling (front dont pay attention and let mauser die to tank)

fathom heron
# strong glen Muasers opening seems pretty standard in these days. If the opposing front doesn...

Yes front doesn't know what to do and I end up alone. Even when asking for radar, or spam in front a mausers. And I am not saying full eco like 4 mexes and Ageo, but 10 more winds and 8 E conv, and 1 mex before pumping T2 can make a massive difference, allowing for same versatility. Like you need jaguar or something.

Also as you said, mauser is standard nowadays, so I enjoy some sheldon to counter them and push front back. Bot are cheaper, no need to reclaim veh lab so you save some metal/time that allow you to get a bit more eco and win the "geo lane"

stray robin
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The other benefit of core bot is that twitcher can make fiend. Which is much better emergency leaker catcher than the platypus of Consul

kind yacht
limber dagger
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consul can make beamer for mausers and capture mexes

strong glen
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If you are significantly higher OS than the average players, perhaps teching up and going in solo with a good T2 composition might be the best play from geo. But that seems like an unusual case.

I'm not sure sheldons counter mausers well -- I haven't seen that happening and, on paper, it doesn't seem that obvious. The range advantage is limited (850 vs 820) and the splash damage is far more limited. Also, sheldons cost more metal, which is the limiting factor here, so you might have the first one out a little sooner, but you will have 3 sheldons out every 4 mausers (metal-wise)

stray robin
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Isnt there a cost difference between the labs?

limber dagger
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shellie vs mauser is just like rockos vs maces tbh

kind yacht
#

sheldon can focus fire better on one mauser. mauser do more dmg vs t1 and more aoe but sheldon have advantage fighting mauser
it's faster to ask what doesn't the consul make

limber dagger
#

u give up space having more range whilst maces can tank some shots. by giving up space u let mausers do max damage to t1 since they have aoe unlike the shellies so mausers not really countered by shellies

kind yacht
clear torrent
#

What is considered a good timing for ageo 4 amex into 3 starlights ?
Or for that matter, rushing 3 starlights with enough e income to actually upkeep them.

kind yacht
#

If you buy t2, hopefully it arrives by 5:15-5:30, and you should be upgraded by 7:00

agile siren
kind yacht
#

9:08 3 starlights, payment for rez/con but not for t2 con
wind was good, using the 2 con 6 rezzer (5 rez because wind was good), reclaim one, 3 con turret reclaim
The t2 lab reclaim timing could definitely be optimized by around 10-15 sec

This is with 3 amexes, as the 4th one is annoying to cap

clear torrent
#

My current build based on solars is more around 9.40-10
I'm struggling to save some 400-500m pre t2 which is the cause of the delay.
I think i can delay 3rd nano (for the 4th mex) after t2 lab reclaim and switch from starting on one mex to starting on the two mex spot. Also by making con first i might get an earlier 4th t1 mex.
Altogether that should bring the deficit to ~150-200.
Maybe if i can remove one estorage then i'll be able to completely avoid mstalling but i'm afraid of estalling when doing the ageo on 6k stored / 2 rezzers and just a geo.
I'm not home but i'll try recording it tomorrow if i can get it to work out a little better.
If i can bypass wind entirely and still keep similar timings then it has some value i guess ^^

kind yacht
#

you don't need an estorage for the ageo technically
when you run out of e you can make winds with 2/3 of the con turrets and a t1 con, and boost the ageo when you do have energy

#

there's a question of whether you should do lab reclaim or no lab reclaim, I imagine for making full 3 amex + ageo that lab reclaim is better, and safer
having more BP and metal to build defenses is safer
I did some experiments on this on old ageo. For making mexes only into units it's beter to keep lab up

#

eating ~1 rez bot for the lab is good but you really don't want to eat more than you need because the e is needed for the ageo

clear torrent
#

I guess once you have reclaimed lab there isnt actually a single reason not to make some winds or solars to avoid stalling. Solars can always be claimed back once the ageo is up and winds despite being a little randomish on a short period will still prove cost effective in the long run. So yeah, i'll let that one estor go and see how it goes ^^

kind yacht
#

building and reclaiming solars takes 2x bp in exchange for fast energy
the time you have to reclaim solars is your next metal bottleneck

young minnow
# kind yacht

how much slower is this than buying T2 from tech? that's like what? 6mins 3 mex and ageo up?

kind yacht
#

it depends how fast the techer gets their t2 out

young minnow
#

how slow would it need to be until this gets to parity?

kind yacht
#

in general i would say the buy from eco builds are stronger w/ the downsides only exploitable in very specific ways
I don't buy from eco much cause I find those builds less interesting and OP. Also when you funnel m/e to the eco player it's funneling/coop

kind yacht
# young minnow how slow would it need to be until this gets to parity?

hm. Starlight king said that if the t2 con is delayed by 30 seconds or more you might as well just make it yourself.

if you get the t2 con at 5:40 or later it's w/e. especially if you consider it's delaying the air player's t2 con, and delaying the eco player a bit
Normally the eco player would tap 3 mexes then send to air player but the geo needs it so badly they should just tap 1 mex and go

#

normally t2 con pops 4:30-4:40 and it arrives 5:20ish I'd think. I don't buy from eco much and I haven't been focused on the exact timings lately

#

a tangent, but with a 50 second disable on t2 con share I think buy from eco and make t2 lab will be extremely balanced

young minnow
#

thats with a 4:30 T2 arrival, 7 min lab with 4 amex and ageo

image.png
kind yacht
#

4:30 is when t2 con usually pops, it takes ~40 seconds from pick up to drop off?
and you can't gurantee the eco player knows what they are doing or has a proper fast t2 con build

young minnow
#

so we can assume +2:30 from receiving the T2 con. Technically you can scale BP/storage/converter if you wait longer

young minnow
kind yacht
#

the e feed is so gross honestly, it's commie
being able to build t2 con without building the e infrastructure for it is very commie

young minnow
kind yacht
#

I agree tho if you have a decent build on eco you'd buy from eco every game. I just don't like the way that takes the geo position
how many winds and rez you make from eco?

young minnow
#

2 rez, 12 wind

kind yacht
#

i do 2 rez, 13 wind, almost the same
there is some build on geo btw where you actually want to idle your com for a moment. As you lose income for blowing him too early

young minnow
#

I was doing the 4mex solar but yours is just easier and tbh better, much lower apm and thinking needed. but can work out worse if wind stalls early

kind yacht
#

maybe slipping in a solar could work seeing as that build has an excess of bp (bp to reclaim it is not a problem)

young minnow
#

Yeah it really does. I've even been doing a converter some games because i have bp before i need to blow

kind yacht
#

ill have to check out your refined eco build

#

the blueprint place + 13 winds was good enough for me but doesn't hurt to keep up with advancements

young minnow
#

there will be a video going live in the next few days but this is the timing that's shown, it's with 10 winds, a bit faster but more suseptible to stalls

image.png
kind yacht
#

oh yeah it makes sense, fewer mex wind builds are worse when wind sucks, which makes mex walking better

kind yacht
young minnow
#

yes agree. i think there is such thing as too fast. i think ideally we want to finish T2 constructor with as little metal but as much wind as possible.

#

but 12-13 is definitely sweet spot, biggest issues are stalls around 6:00:6-30 right as you're finishing 4th amex. scaling winds requires E, and if you get a stall of 1.0 right as you're finishing your 4th amex, it can really hurt. I've been 2-3 storages as soon as my wind starts going up, even before any converters

clear torrent
#

I think we should focus on getting our builds free of coop/sharing up cause that might just be where bar is taken.
Which is part of the reason i'm focusing on getting a decent geo build that i can deal with
As for reclaiming solars, i use a t1 maker 1 footprint away from solar, self d with solar on disable.
Gets it to 10% hp.
With a cross shaped pattern and solars overlapping you can get 8 solars to 10% hp in a single maker boom. Then reclaim all 8 for the bt of less than one solar.

#

So that's an almost free e income as you obly pay 110% of the bt for build + reclaim. The rest is entirely free

#

If you dont off solars thats a boom without wrecks though so better not forget it ^^

#

I also use pawn for t1 and t2 lab reclaim. Saves some bt aswell.
I could prolly use some makers but they cost e and i'd need multiple for just a single lab so i prefer just one pawn shooting.

kind yacht
#

1 energy converter costs 17.4 metal converted, it's not free
geo doesn't really rely on wind speed so you could benchmark with constant wind (14.2)

#

I think the wall/energy converters have a place, but they are niche micro things that I wouldn't really focus on first
the first bottleneck is racing to geo + 2 con turrets + 6 converters

#

if you are doing lab reclaim, the bottleneck is technically the lab + metal storage
you want to reclaim asap so you can start putting your energy into amexes and not convert it

#

{
armwin = {
windgenerator = 0,
energyupkeep = -14.2
},
corwin = {
windgenerator = 0,
energyupkeep = -14.2
}
}

ewogIGFybXdpbiA9IHsgCiAgICB3aW5kZ2VuZXJhdG9yID0gMCwKICAgIGVuZXJneXVwa2VlcCA9IC0xNC4yCiAgfSwKICBjb3J3aW4gPSB7CiAgICB3aW5kZ2VuZXJhdG9yID0gMCwKICAgIGVuZXJneXVwa2VlcCA9IC0xNC4yCiAgfQp9

stray robin
kind yacht
#

if they are idling yeh might as well suck trees
but it's insignificant vs just blowing at the right time. since you are idling for like 10 sec max

#

what I did with old geo was make a list of the timings that matter. and compare them between runs

In this case t2 con pop doesn't matter it's the timing which you can reclaim lab and start the amexes

image.png
clear torrent
#

I dont recall what i did to the reclaim formulas.
There used to be very insignificant differences between 20 and 2000 bp when reclaiming.
I think i had changed it so that bp was actually taken into account for real, but it still has a part of the value that is fixed independant of the bp.
So i'm not sure it'd be wise to use comm bp for reclaim rather than a t1 con's

kind yacht
#

t1 con is better. it's a constant + a factor * bp

The point is you have sufficient bp having built 3 nanos already. normally it would be wasteful to have extra bp but it seems like it's best to build them right after the geo because that's when you have excess energy anyways

clear torrent
#

Yeah 30%constant 70% bp linked iirc. But i do not remember the exact constant value that was used before my change.

kind yacht
#

amexes don't require that much E but the ageo does. Reclaiming more laz will speed up your lab reclaim m bottleneck but you will have to replace the e when you make ageo

image.png
fathom heron
#

this is my nano layout, both can build/reclaim lab, assist units, and upgrade mexes. It is less efficient than having 2 on the same mex to upgrade faster, but it reduces the E required as well so

image.png
strong glen
#

You can place nanos so that they reach 3 mexes

#

Like here #1402454245764235335 message

fathom heron
#

yes but it cost 400 more metal, + the E + while you use them

kind yacht
#

you want to build the same amex at the same time. get a trans from air to move nanos

clear torrent
#

Tested my build some more but it doesn't seem to provide anymore efficiency nor reliability than any other.
I had expexted to save a couple hundreds metal on using reclaimable energy sources (solars) and saving on the recquired bt to reclaim (so less rezzers recquired overall), for a slightly earlier t2. But it seems at the end of the day i'm still doing worse than all other builds. I dunno if it's the build itself, or my failure to apply it properly.
Well i still do 4 amex before t2 geo and advance vp so maybe i can still earn 30-40s there. But that's still a 9:40 minimal time for my 3 starlights to hit the frontline.
On the bright side, it feels good to perfect timings for minimal bp wastes πŸ™‚

agile siren
#

Also, when reclaiming fusions, dont forget about the resbots.
When trying the 10 afus by 20 myself, I was going up to 4-5 fusions, and I found that 2 resbots eating a fusion timed out pretty well with transitioning into making bp for the afus.

Primary reason for that many fusions is, as you mentioned, skirmish wind is incredibly unreliable.

young minnow
spark helm
#

Wait what?? What's the difference between multiplayer and skirmish wind exactly?

#

I don't know of anything that would make it different

young minnow
#

Not sure on the numbers, but anecdotally, the wind feels significantly more variable, it'll go from 19 to 1 in like 10 seconds, and then back up. Perhaps it's just more noticable because there's not that one guy with a geo overflowing to you when wind hits rock bottom in MP, but that's my experience. Like 8/10 of my starts I have to scrap in skirmish because wind is 4.0 (on 1-19), yet in MP that game seems like once every 10.

spark helm
#

I'll investigate that, I bet ur tripping πŸ˜„

#

But who knows, BAR works in mysterious ways

young minnow
#

Got fed up with my OS35+ allies giving T2 at 5:30+ and decided to optimize solo starlights.

Can't seem to get faster than 8:45 for solo 3 Starlights

3 mex -> 3 winds -> 3 laz -> 2 con -> geo -> 2 nano -> 6 converters -> t2 lab -> blow comm at 4:00 near t2 lab to reduce relcaim required on it

5:00 lab reclaim, 7:00 for ageo and 3x amex

πŸ“Ž 2025-09-13_10-06-10-058_Supreme_Isthmus_v2_2025.04.08.sdfz image.png
spark helm
#

Chad Drongo

cursive saddle
#

Stop crowd sourcing your science Drongo!

clear torrent
#

I dunno if that'd be better, but for my nanos placement, i do first 2 in 3mexes range.
When t2 lab is claimed and t2 con is up, i tap the 2 closest mexes and send t2 con to assist a 3rd nano that is in geo range and 4th mex range. When it's about 75 % i send it to tap the 3rd mex (which is the 4th spot) that will be built by the 3rd nano then tap ageo, tap 4th mex then share t2 to front.
I focus all on ageo only once 4 mexes are upgraded but i think the timing isnt too damaged from it thanks to that third nano.

#
  • that's a decent t2 timing for front. ^^
clear torrent
#

We don't have much more leverages to improve t2 timing itself. Except maybe skipping t1 geo entirely and going straight for the adv. That'd save you 560m before t2 lab, so that might be an improvment on the t2 timing itself but then you'll stall with that tech

kind yacht
#

you prolly need a 3 man commie to skip geo

agile siren
clear torrent
#

I tried in solo in different ways. Storing from solars, making winds and rezzers.
It doesnt provide any improvement overall. Actually even the t2 itself is slower due mostly to having to use bp and metal for storages and/or solars.
So it doesnt seem to be an option

#

It didnt seem like such a bad idea at first considering t1 geo is 560 - 13000 and t2 is about 26000 e

#

But when you consider the t2 lab, t2 con and amexes thats another story ^^

kind yacht
#

t1 geo refunds its e cost in 45ish seconds, but it also provides the role of an estorage/asolar, storing past e into the future

young minnow
# agile siren what do you use to fix wind?

i have a present that gives either 19 or 14.2 wind - just by tweaking the units

ewogIGFybXdpbiA9IHsgCiAgICB3aW5kZ2VuZXJhdG9yID0gMCwKICAgIGVuZXJneXVwa2VlcCA9IC0xOS4wCiAgfSwKICBjb3J3aW4gPSB7CiAgICB3aW5kZ2VuZXJhdG9yID0gMCwKICAgIGVuZXJneXVwa2VlcCA9IC0xOS4wCiAgfQp9

^ for 19 wind

ewogIGFybXdpbiA9IHsgCiAgICB3aW5kZ2VuZXJhdG9yID0gMCwKICAgIGVuZXJneXVwa2VlcCA9IC0xNC4yCiAgfSwKICBjb3J3aW4gPSB7CiAgICB3aW5kZ2VuZXJhdG9yID0gMCwKICAgIGVuZXJneXVwa2VlcCA9IC0xNC4yCiAgfQp9

^ for 14 wind

image.png
young minnow
# cursive saddle Stop crowd sourcing your science Drongo!

its impossible to compete with someone who does though πŸ™ they have 4amex + 18 converters going from 6mins (55m/s)
if you are forced to make t2 units before upping your mex's, you're stuck on 13m/s
even doing it like this you are so far behind because no 4th amex and no converters pumping if idle

kind yacht
#

Even for solo players I think t2 con instant share is too strong when you optimize

#

How a single t2 con can t2 mexes from multiple bases and tap ageo

#

If there's 50 sec delay on eco/con share it becomes way more balanced.

#

(Esp in a future world where t2 lab cost is reduced)
You can see this air players get insanely ahead if they get a turbo fast t2 con and know how to use it

young minnow
#

i'm thinking out loud here, could T2 air for eco actually be decent? i don't think so. way too high energy costs, no butler, extra 300m for lab (but 90m less for constructor) - also no butlers - but maybe reclaim lab and go t2 bot lab after?

and you literally fly around and tap everyones mex's at 5minutes lmao

#

god its so commie but fuck it would actually go hard if you could get geo to feed E + M, and air to feed M

#

t1 bots -> 2 nano -> t1 air -> t2 air -> reclaim lab -> fusion -> t2 bot -> butler spam?

cursive saddle
#

I've seen countless variations of the tap n go meme, it usually sucks because the team is not high enough level to click the mex on time, or have enough economy that early to manage building one and survive from what I've seen

young minnow
kind yacht
kind yacht
clear torrent
#

Yeah, esp the front guys are gonna get troubles managing a decaying mex and having all apm on front.
Unless they got 3 cons in base assist-wait on mexes and nanos queued for building.

But then your whole team has to build around that tap all mexes strat.
Might be worth with practice but not on an unexpecting team.

young minnow
# young minnow ummm YO?

definitely doesn't work going for nuke bomber - you have to invest so much energy into it and with variable wind (and no stable E) you're at the mercy of the gods

crisp shale
#

The solid, stable, very decent timing geo build is: 3 mex, 2 solar, lab, rez ( then you may get variable input from overflow), solar/2 wind ( while building a t1 con in lab), help with con after solar, then walk the com to last mex and have con assist with the 3 more rez. After last mex, make an estore. Con should be making Geo, com assists. 2:48 every time, a bit earlier if overflow.

Edit: crap, this one is 3:03 every times, but gets the 4th mex up about 32 seconds faster. Ill post the very similar 2:48 one in a new post.

kind yacht
#

the con that walks to the 4th mex makes estor? what's the benefit of the estor

crisp shale
#

The estore allows for the build up of e, so that as the com ( not con, the con has started building the geo) walks from the 4th mex to assist with geo, you have enough e to finish geo with out stalling, and if lucky, get some team overflow.

#

once Geo is done, 3 rez eat the solars and lab (then go back to tree harvesting) , 1 rez eats the rocks along the shore, your com and con make 2 or more conturrets and proceed into geo builds (prep for buy t2 or go into t2).

crisp shale
#

The steady 2:48 build is like this:
3 mex, 2 solar, lab, 1 rez, solar (while building a second rez in lab), build 1 con, tap the geo, walk con to build 4th mex. Commander continues assist lab make 2 more rez, then starts on geo. You don't get the estor, and will overflow on e soon after geo is up. 100 more metal to work with because no estore, (lose about 70m because of later mex).

harsh elbow
#

will have to play w/ it. How late do you give con/rez to beach w/ this build?

crisp shale
#

you can do it at 2:50, or lose 10 sec and make a rez earlier