Balance test modoption, description + feedback

[daring tundra]

Not really, in flat you have a decent amount of chance that the mex is not destroyed, but if there is anything around the mex, like hills or anything a little higher height near it, mex just not destroyed

[obtuse forge]

in flat it's 100% destroyed from my testing if you hit the centre

so it's probably skill issue if you can't kill on flat

but maybe it's not good to require such precise targeting anyway 🤔

[obtuse forge]

ok nvm it isn't 😆

probably do something like this then

[lean yoke]

I liked opening cheeky air in some maps 1v1, but if bombeur cant kill mex reliably, this strat kinda worse while it was already way more technical with sharp transitions to ground

[obtuse forge]

just increase dmg by 5% npnp

[lean yoke]

Yeh would be cool

[daring tundra]

#1390518390484893849 message

[frigid flower]

I never saw that they listen to feedback in any case in the past and i knew this topic will be time waste who take it seriously. So its released 1:1 as it was announced.

[lean yoke]

they did add +30% E cost, but i didnt see anyone suggest it xD

[frigid flower]

Btw. thanks for destroying T2 Core Vehicle, time to focus on Arm T2 Vehicle now... glad that Janus which is still OP as fuck, still didnt get nerfed... what a epic balance patch

[lean yoke]

core veh still op lol, but not with your solo build

[fierce otter]

core has wolverine wich is OP but arm has janus wich is generally more usefull

[wintry violet]

so what's the origional values for the flags?

I guess I have to make a tweak now that doesn't completely ruin sea

[left iron]

https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/blob/master/units/CorShips/T2/corblackhy.lua
https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/blob/master/units/ArmShips/T2/armepoch.lua
you can look through the commits and see their whole history

[plucky cave]

Just remove flagship and put in extra units

[atomic jetty]

Does anyone have the tweak to put flagship back to the way it was, and also for it to come out of the t3 gantry?

The new change is completely dogshit

[candid oxide]

the old tweak, resets the flags new cost value to the old one at least

[thorn shadow]

This we all want we need this

[wintry violet]

? no it doesn't

go read

[candid oxide]

idk how tweaks work, but i thought maybe u can adjust it/add to it the missing parts

it does

idk which tweak u talking about tho, i think this one does it

[wintry violet]

partly - for some reason I can't get the AOE value to work. Send me a DM hopefully I can fix it tonight.

[wintry violet]

nope - read the first line in it

[atomic jetty]

Once you make it @wintry violet Send it to me so i can put it in every op isthmus lobby

I have the flag only tweak and i have the webpage taht has all of the previous values the flag used to be at before the patch if you need either

[young estuary]

how are the old flag values supposed to be better

[wintry violet]

Because they make the unit relevant?

I keep saying it. Talk to isthmus players...

Flag does nothing now and is not worth making.

we had a tweak that put in in a decent position but then yall went and fucked it

so now i have to fuck with it

we could have just added it to T3 lbs like 90% of people said, but no

[wintry violet]

current flag is maybe a 10k metal unit

maybe.

[plucky cave]

Nah. Flag is still broken.

[wintry violet]

so uh

why wasn't janus nerfed with this

[wintry violet]

so is wind on isthmus whats ur point

[wintry violet]

seems to me like the flag is currently the only balanced unit

and everything else is over-tuned

[thorn shadow]

Wha

You comparing a unit that can shoot your base across the map untouchable to buildings that cause no problems?

[wintry violet]

when did I do that

[spiral basin]

The life of the balance team.
"nerf flagship! It's the worst! Horrible design. Just remove it!"
Fine, it's nerfed hard.
"what the hell! It's so bad now!"

[plucky cave]

The funny thing is its unclear if its even nerfed. You can still get one a million years before you should be able to.

[spiral basin]

How does the first hit burst and aoe go? was that actually a buff?

[wintry violet]

not really

its kind of a buff against spam units and a nerf against everything else? but that just stalemate games more

[dawn gulch]

man you guys are wild

[young estuary]

Everyone hates the flag change, even if they can't agree whether its because it's a buff or because it's a nerf

[dawn gulch]

skinner/graceful are so extreme

whatever just let supreme strait players play will flagship tweak for the next year, the balance team unironically has much more important things to work on. flagship can be nerfed but it would be good to readjust t2 sea balance at the same time.

[wintry violet]

this

and even t1

[slender remnant]

Skinner won’t be happy until his team can lose both seas and still pull off a win 🪦

[candid oxide]

what do u dont like about t1?

[wintry violet]

aa option

[candid oxide]

arm/core specific?

i thought u gonna say the frigate difference

[wintry violet]

nah that's a playstyle thing

boat aa needs to actually do something at t1

30 hearings can't kill a fucking nuke bomber

nothing can kill a stiletto

nothing can even damage torps

[floral barn]

hey at least its not like the torp fu days where torps could attack boats without ever coming into range of even the t2 aa boats if micro'd correctly

[granite estuary]

Can I get info on this? I dont know the ocean

[wintry violet]

It was a very complicated tweak. Most players liked it, but it was very hard to implement. /s

[wintry violet]

you know what it was?

PUT OLD FLAG IN T3 SEA LAB

[granite estuary]

I don't know, I just remember flag ships from rare isthmus games and trying to/building one glitters

[modest phoenix]

...did you nuke a crater to groundwater and build a flagship in there? 😛

[thorn shadow]

what if hounds became like the gunslinger the more kills it gets the faster the projecitle?

could be nice buff to it

[granite estuary]

What the fu k or how about just gi d it the fu king toggle back I dont understand

[thorn shadow]

lmao

[candid oxide]

On that topic I find that the liche and stiletto need more balance and not T1 aa

Need to reduce their speed since they are even faster than T1 figs

For liche it's a high risk high reward unit but mostly you get it's value back, but stiletto is just gg I find it's the better liche

I haven't played stiletto yet but if 2+ emp bombers stack it's even more op

[wintry violet]

regular bombers still fuck ships

unless you put 4200 metal into 20 hearings. Which also can't fire if they are targeting ships.

[candid oxide]

so u suggest buffing the aa? or a new boat aa with better stats?

[candid oxide]

yeah well u fight 2v1 in that case

[wintry violet]

or just a static like land cons can make

literally nothing you can do currently

[wintry violet]

and saying it's 2v1 is a misdirect. You can have a fleet 3x your opponent and air comes with 5 bombers and fucks you cause there is no ability to stop it

also most of their metal will have been into figs, so it's not really a "2v1"

[candid oxide]

the naval t1 aa is better than the land aa tbf, but some static wouldnt hurt anyone agree

u need ur fleet perfectly lined up to get hit by all bomber shots and die instantly though

[floral barn]

yeah never understood why sea can only make nettles and flak as static aa

[candid oxide]

i also find that the t1 navy porc might need some buffs, since on land the overwatch doesnt get outranged but on sea destroyer outranges everything

[wintry violet]

not really

[wintry violet]

no cause any damage will lose the fight

[slender remnant]

+1 Liche and EMP bomber need a look, t1 sea has literally no counter (even if crushing their lane), the herring / skater metal cost isn't there.

Slowing the liche down to give sea players time to disengage from their current, and spread, would be nice. A better long range T1 AA ship would be better, in the ~400 metal range.

[plucky cave]

Crying about dying to t2 air as t1 sea is cringe. please stop clumping your boats, it's bad micro anyways. On the bright side, when you lose sea, sea still wins b/c your opponent will build a flag which has no counter. Nerfing liche/EMP, seems like not a good idea. If you can't beat your opponent and someone w/ a tech advantage....that just makes sense.

[modest phoenix]

It's the roflstomp nature. T1 sea should at least be able to do something if they learn liche/EMP is coming in a couple of minutes.

[placid juniper]

uuh, ask Air for cover?

[wintry violet]

so why does land get a chainsaw but not sea?

[plucky cave]

oh idc if sea gets a chainsaw, seems fine

[candid oxide]

thank you for the live demo with 10 bombers u only got 1 frigate

in 2 runs

i dont want to roast u or smth but still my point stands and u just showed it that u need the navy perfectly lined up

[wintry violet]

I wasn't targeting well but ok

nearly everything missed

[wintry violet]

and fun fact, I got damage on the ships

and the guy died

[candid oxide]

who died?

i was the guy that u were bombing

[slender remnant]

Dying to t2 air is fine, dying to t2 air in 1 second is not fine

Its just bad gameplay lol, you should always within reason have a way to counter or delay and with the current state of the liche, if your air player does not have all their figs protecting you (or if a geo or eco builds the liche), you just die because nothing has air line of sight great enough for you to react.

[grizzled vigil]

I have a tweak for this... 😉

[plucky cave]

My thinking is that you shouldn't have all of your boats touching so the don't all disappear, sure, you should lose a couple boats, but not all of them. A couple boats is often enough to lose sea anyways. Also liche is a fortune, and half the time I see them used they get 0 value. Seems like a big risk

[wintry violet]

a lich is 2 ships

hardly a fortune

[plucky cave]

lmao and how much E? what about BP? t2 lab? It's half a fusion too. Air also has 4 mexes, and at the end of the day you're still fighting 2 people. You should lose! My main issue with the line of reasoning is I've disproven this so many times while playing t1 sea. Basically you make a lot of AA, split your boats, and don't over extend. If you can't push with that, then go t2.

[slender remnant]

Yeah you should lose, not lose within 30 seconds of the liche showing up

At least with torp bombers it takes time

[wintry violet]

I should also be able to kill it without needed 40 herrings

and fun fact, with 40 it will still get the bomb off

[wintry violet]

the lab is moot cause you can eat it to eco

[wintry violet]

Also I'm not fighting 2 people, I'm fighting 1 person and 1 unit

and in no way shape or form should that cause the other sea to win if I am significantly ahead in ships

yet it currently does every time

[grizzled vigil]

Unless the player you are already fighting made the Liche, you are fighting 2 people?

[wintry violet]

huh? then its 1 person

[grizzled vigil]

Are you not also fighting your opponent who is on the sea or in your lane? or in this context are you the air player fighting the air player with a liche supporting your lane player?

[wintry violet]

yes? and if they make a lich you are still fighting them?

[grizzled vigil]

If you (a sea player) are fighting someone on sea, and then an eco or air players Liche turns up, you are now fighting 2 players - no?

[wintry violet]

I would not consider it that, no

I base it on distrabution of recources

if ALL their units are dedicated to MY lane then its 2

which is not what is happening

[candid oxide]

on ecos case it is and on air making a liche it def is

[wintry violet]

ahh, yes

the 0 fighter liche build - OP

[candid oxide]

well idk, u make figs so u can get away with the liche which is the main goal of every player so they micro the liche since they have nothing else to do kek

if we get fighters shooting ground units then im pretty sure everyone wouldve abused it on sea players

[grizzled vigil]

If it’s out early - before ~14ish minutes it basically is their whole eco up-to that point tho?

ESP if they rush it out before any t2 eco for an even stronger timing?

[wintry violet]

no

14 mins will be on 2 fusions as well

[gentle copper]

Bro, you are assimilating. stop hanging out with wind please for your sake. Fighting 2 players is, in fact, fighting 2 players...

[dawn gulch]

If you have a unit that can apply 2v1 to every single lane that is SS tier strong

only thing with the liche is to make it not risky you want air control

the reason why the liche is preferred over the torps now is the aoe dmg if they are not prespread, and it threatens every lane, can solve amphib problem or coms

Under the condition that you have air control, there is no better unit than the liche

Not saying liche is cheap, but there is a reason why it's so strong when it works

[wintry violet]

so are you saying that if I am a ahead of my opponent by the cost of a lich in units I deserve neither the chance nor the ability to win the lane merely because the lich was made by a second player?

[gentle copper]

I am saying that if you're fighting 2 players, then you're fighting 2 players...

[wintry violet]

I'm fighting a player + a unit

[gentle copper]

you mean the unit has it's own autonomy? When did they add that? is it a widget?

[wintry violet]

always? "roam" option and fight command both?

area attack as well

[gentle copper]

o wow and the units just do that themselves?

where's the widget? can you link it?

[slender remnant]

lol its in the base game

You are missing the point that a singular unit overpowering every t1 unit out of the sea lab with 1 bomb drop is bullshit

[wintry violet]

and we aren't even talking about the stiletto yet

[gentle copper]

i'm not missing the point... he's saying 2 players actively fighting against one is not a 2v1. my point is simply that it is a 2v1

literally the only thing i've said, at all, here.

[craggy cape]

is this 3v1 or 1v1 @wintry violet

[wintry violet]

#1390518390484893849 message

looks like all their units to me

I think people don't understand fractions?

cause when I'm saying its not 2v1, I'm also not saying its 1v1