Legion Strategy Thread

[gloomy fulcrum]

Was just doing some maths and felt like they really don’t warrant the E and M cost they demand

[untold crane]

Better/worse. Less range makes them bad vs other rockos that have good micro, but they're strong rockos per unit

[quaint tiger]

arquebus is good because it is very very good at kiting

and arquebus exists in a lab with mobile radar/jammer/spybot

they are much burstier, which in actual gameplay scenarios (decent micro) can make them more viable in certain matchups, its very very noticeable when facing thugs in particular

they just helplessly die to arm/core rocketbots tho

[untold crane]

Tbf they once had slightly more range instead of slightly less than other rockos, and people complained that was unwinnable, so here we are

[untold crane]

@sharp stirrup would you mind posting your strat for hold fire hives here? As well as possible counters?

[sharp stirrup]

I don't really have a "strat" for it, it basically follows the same rules as gauntlet. As far as countering it, you would need to bascialy already be invested in missile trucks. It takes something like ~6 Nettles to stop a single Hive and 2 Hives kills Nettles faster than the com can build or repair them so I don't think the idea of just building 10-12 Nettles at your first expansion is really valid lol

[untold crane]

It takes 3-4 nettles, not 6, but sure

6 + 1 t1.5 aa invalidates at least 7 mantises

with bp ofc

[sharp stirrup]

Im having to walk outside of hive ranges, make 3 Nettles, then walk in 3 nettles at a time to get under them

[untold crane]

so your first 3 provide safety, your next three are basically turret creep but vs air
You dont need the second set if you bring mobile aa though

[sharp stirrup]

Yeah otherwise 2 Hives more or less instantly killsa Nettle

Yeah I have just swapped to missile trucks vs Legion now

They work well vs everything they have

[untold crane]

It is indeed a sad time. Med tank + missile truck = legion just loses in t1. If there's a gap anywhere in the faction, it's dealing with that lol

[errant sparrow]

Yeah you have to walk from the outside to the inside with Nettles which is a long process.

[quaint tiger]

kinda want to test split kiting lance vs good missile truck player to see how playable it is

[untold crane]

Can you split kite lances? They don't shoot backwards and missile trucks should theoretically be able to always outmaneuver no?

[untold crane]

@shy galleon when you get on care to try?

[quaint tiger]

its not the same if organised/expected

i just mean i wanna encounter it in real game

the whole reason you need to split kite with lance is because of the limited firearc

you retreat 1 group while other fires

just super duper apm sink

[untold crane]

ahh. Gotcha

[quasi relic]

Played 1 game with t1 only. Legion decurion+barrage combo broke all other combos. Very cost effective

[untold crane]

You'll have a hard time vs missile truck + med tank, but should do well vs anything that isn't that

[topaz gale]

anyone found a good use for the phobos?

[sonic cradle]

base raiding.
Every single stat on it is amazing except for wepon range.
throw it at flanks.
Sneak attacks, structures that sort of thing.

[untold crane]

Also useful to run onto unprotected rockos and arty or even vulnerable t2 like mantis/tremor, that sorta thing. (the latter assuming you're fighting t2 from t1 in an unfortunate turn of events)

[quaint tiger]

they are really good at demonstrating why shuri needs to be deleted

[untold crane]

.#givePhobosEMPresistance
jk

[shy galleon]

yeh basically you forget leg bots has a fast unit

they actually have 1

[wintry leaf]

Even if you're not going to actively raid with them, having 5 or so Phobos for leak defence is really nice. They can get some pretty good damage going too with flanking

[untold crane]

Ye, they're like really bad blitzes but they have hp so they can kinda push through their bad times

[topaz gale]

I tried making the dogs as a brekthrough unit to rush like 6 of them towards enemy economy after I won my lane by killing their commander and they got melted by random reinforcing ticks and stray llts

i think i saw one lose to 3 or 4ticks which is very grim for a unit that costs that much

[untold crane]

Personally I think that says more about the brokenness of scouts than it does about the alaris though

[topaz gale]

the phobos you mean right? it seems to me like its just a very underpowered unit

[shy galleon]

the thing it's not meant to be a main unit

legion t1 bot has plenty of other influential units

it's just there in case you want a fast raider

that's why i wouldn't expect it to match up to blitz head on

[quaint tiger]

its just so expensive for something that can die to scouts, in a world where shuri exists

cannot overstate how much shuri just kills the viability

[shy galleon]

You need a real air player to play raids into shuirken

either by faking a raid and forcing out shurikens + greed, bringing figs with raid, or overloading the air player

https://tenor.com/view/guess-ill-die-gif-9704573

reality more like

[quaint tiger]

maaaaybe

when people realise how op blindfold is

it will find a place as "not a scout" so it cant be blindfolded

[topaz gale]

the phobos cost/performance ratio seems more like that of a hover unit

[sonic cradle]

it's a high range light tank.
it out ranges blitzes and incisors.
maintains decent DPS while doing so.
it probably could use some buffs but it's better than it might seem at first glance.
just, much like the entire rest of legion, they work best with mixed unit comps. frontline helios with some lances behind them, and maybe a barrage.

wait

I just realized I missread

lmao

[topaz gale]

yeah its fine, i think the helios is aight to mid, its also not the cheapest and very fragile

its a very solid anti scout option

[sonic cradle]

Uh phobos though, just about every single stat on it is actually very great, except weapon range.

Makes it good for a handful of specific tasks.
base raiding, chasing down leaked units (it is very fast), rushing them into weak spots, or to chase down enemy forces that are retreating after engaging you on the front.

the weapon range issue does kneecap it for a lot of ues though.

[topaz gale]

phobos speed and turnrate make it very bad at catching scouts xD

it has no range to zone them either

so if ticks or rovers make it past them u are completely screwed

[sonic cradle]

if ticks or rovers make it past, you still have the advantage. you already know the things they'll be trying to go after, the phobos is just the fastest option you have to intercept, and if you can't kill the scout unit as they try to laser your mexes or wind farm, you can at least force them to leave, and do so faster than sending goblins, or satyrs etc.

[untold crane]

Or you can make an LLT and spend less money and make scout raids moot. Phobos does have some uses, but scout defense isn't really one of them

[sonic cradle]

If the phobos is already built
It is your fastest bot that can respond to those situations quicker is more the point.

[untold crane]

I mean ya, but why would you build a phobos when scouts are out is the main point. Ig if the enemy is swarming you with ticks that's one thing, but you'd generally desire LLT over Phobos wherever possible. And maybe even a Karkinos, since that's definitely a bot that won't die to just tick harrass

[mighty shoal]

Thug (`corthud`)

Light Plasma Bot

Faction: Cortex
Health: 1'100 hp
Cost: 140 M / 1'150 E / 2'100 B
Speed: 45 / 117 accel / 208° per sec turning
Vision: 380 / 570 (air)

Weapons

PlasmaCannon
DPS: 60 (104 dmg, 1.73s reload)
Range: 380 (36 splash)
Can hit: Air, Boats, Ground

Model by: jjackVII | generated in 7ms | updated every 4 hours

Phobos (`legcen`)

Fast Assault Bot

Faction: Legion
Health: 800 hp
Cost: 140 M / 2'200 E / 2'800 B
Speed: 90 / 225 accel / 119° per sec turning
Vision: 400 / 600 (air)

Weapons

Close-quarters g2g gauss-cannon
DPS: 107 (2x burst, 75 dmg, 1.40s reload)
Range: 180
Can hit: Air, Boats, Ground

Model by: Tharsis | generated in 0ms | updated every 4 hours

[untold crane]

Is just a worse thug that moves faster and costs like 70% more total resources

[errant sparrow]

I think Phobos is about the hypothetical. "What if they build three or four Phobos". So it's a good name. But the use case is, what, baiting Janus shots safely and effectively? Maybe an option into Whistler/Janus?

[topaz gale]

thinking about the phobos some more, its probably more usefull in duels to give legion something that can outrun pawns and grunts and punish naked expanding

[quasi relic]

Afaik at early point the phobos was very very broken. So legion devs nerfed it.

[errant sparrow]

The burst damage used to be higher and you could just walk up to stuff and it would be dead

It was awesome tbh but that is a really hostile player experience when you go up against Legion for the first time

[topaz gale]

I mean... If we went by hostile new player experience not much beats ticks in your base at min 1

I also had a hostile new legion player experience when i tried to kill rovers with phobos xd

I have another question for the legion pros tho, what is the best setup to control hives, should I be setting them on hold fire?

its hard to tell what the drones are doing during fights

also default stance is roam?, should i keep that?

[errant sparrow]

We don't have to repeat historical crimes :P

[sonic cradle]

Imo it should have a range buff

Let it skirmish a bit better that way and actually use its speed for something

[gilded owl]

Hold fire is best, and choose 1 target at a time

[topaz gale]

what if I want them to avoid aa and just hover over my rockos for vision

[gilded owl]

Just attack the ground then

But if you just want vision, you dont necessarily need hold fire

[untold crane]

If using hives for vision, set target behind your base, then fight move forwarrd when you want to start your duel.
If using them to do a doompush timing, make 2-3 on holdfire and unleash when they're full and you have a decent pushing army that can eat/rez/hold the new position

[untold crane]

It's also a hostile experience learning that you have a unit that has the role of 'being bad in most situations, and barely useable in like 2 niche ones' in a lab for over 6 months =p

[topaz gale]

I like the idea of keeping them in the air but safe in the back because take off is kinnda slow

[shy galleon]

helios is good against incisor, good when kiting medium tanks

with high micro it can suprisingly outplay janus due, being able to bait the initial shot and do high damage at close range

It's not good in 8v8 due to too many pure skirmishers and porc (need an effecient way to clear llts)

and it's kinda overshadowed by overtuned speed shit like pre-nerf blitz, alaris, etc.

[quaint tiger]

i like edge of range poking coms with helios

but it is so squishy and terrible turn/acceleration

[untold crane]

It is light tank that wants to be medium tank while being a medium tank that hits like a super incisor. Is hard to put into a box Arm and Cor can compare to. Lots of other units can be described as 'x unit but more range' or something, but helios is kinda in this weird muddy zone

[mental lintel]

I need some advice about the Triton, while yes it can handle most land threats, how can I better use it's gattling gun top as semi light aa?

[quaint tiger]

triton is pretty bad as a straight up combat unit. The main niche is amphib lab (early appearance) 550 range com abusing; where the minigun makes 0 difference because you are edge-of-ranging

the AA component is more relevant when you are abusing the amphibious movement to flank/raid, or contribute to a sea fight an ally is engaged in. If you engage land units with the intention of getting into minigun range, triton's not-great stats will not reward you for doing so

[sonic cradle]

Your best bet is to not rely on it.
It's an amphib unit.

All it's stats are considerably low compared to other units.
The reason people even think it's strong is because it's an amphibious unit and is pretty strong for one.

It.. however is not a replacement for just building an actual tank and AA tank.

[mental lintel]

Ah thanks

[topaz gale]

Ok so...omexes

they seem shit

when would you ever want them on a role map

[errant sparrow]

Search Benjai's messages in this thread for his analysis, it's very spreadsheety

Oh nvm I think that was in #1164194636579995678

Maybe should've been here

[mental lintel]

They work for eco as a semi way of getting into asolar and t2 builders, front can maybe use the extra m income to rush porc or rocket line

Sea is just metal hungry

[untold crane]

You always want 1, you sometimes want 2, and you will want more on not-8v8 maps bc tech will usually not get to you as soon as on 8v8. Or if you're doing sick on wrecks you can omex and t2 different mexes if you also have high E prod, but that's a fly-by-the-cuff decision

[sonic cradle]

it's 2X a metal spot's worth at Tech 1.
it's incredibly useful and an unironic replacement for building mass T1 energy converters, which people will do to try and force eco to speed up some before they can get to tech 2.

Moreover, while they're pumping out 2x metal, the metal cost you put into building them, is later removed as a discount when upgrading to proper tech 2.
Giving you very good reason to use at least 1 if not 2 or more depending on the role and your economy level.

it's not something you spam for sure but it's absolutely a good building.

[dense prairie]

isn't it like 3 or 4x with t2mex?

[shy galleon]

if you play a front techer spot that is walking anyways they are much better than converters and the metal is worth the delay initial teching

legion not good on pure tech rush maps that don't have high value mex tho

[quaint tiger]

i like omex for early t2 units (belcher)

like u can do some omex as techer then before your t2 eco is fully spun up you can pump some belcher/hoplite

[topaz gale]

my impressions of it are just really bad, i tried to put together a leg tech strat for glitters and its just a disaster xD, so far I got nothing I would even consider viable. it seems that no matter how you do things legion tech will just be very slow at everything

did them less as front but they also feel really bad, you have to invest into them at a time when you normally put your metal into units so it weakens your combat power and the amounts of energy you need for upkeep are just crazy

[quaint tiger]

the thing with leg as tech

is belcher costs 1/3 of fatboi

[topaz gale]

sure its nice to get the metal back eventually but its still locked into it for a long ass time (and I would argue a crucial time)

[quaint tiger]

and you can (bear with me this is ever so slightly advanced) hand out proteus

so ally can print hoplite before t2 lab

[topaz gale]

none of that helps with enemy fatboy

the units you make are a diffirent matter from the eco side and I think they also really suck

(for tech rushing them)

[quaint tiger]

i mean they have 1 fatboy you have 3 belcher

win 2 lanes and slowly lose 1

[topaz gale]

yeah you lose hard

[quaint tiger]

you literally just slowly retreat

and buy time, while 2 other lanes win

[topaz gale]

problem is you dont have 3 belchers because legion tech is so slow and bad

[quaint tiger]

i mean i wont dive into a glitters specific rabbit hole becaues not my cup of tea to play that map

but on koom, rose, swirly etc etc

leg tech stronk

[topaz gale]

the combination of having to sink metal into omexes AND sink a bunch more metal to power those omex WHILE you do everything else makes legion tech suck

too many costs too little benefit

you need to setup like 40% more energy infrastructure before you can even star thinking about placing the lab

[quaint tiger]

i think there is merit in the tempo you gain after lab is up but before t2 mex are done

[topaz gale]

you dont because the 30e upkeep per omex eats all that tempo and than some

its in your best interest to upgrade all your omex to t2 mex

staying on omex is just even worse xD

[quaint tiger]

obviously t2 eco is better than t1 eco

but there is a significant window in which you can have omex and cannot have t2 mex

in which you can make combat units

[topaz gale]

no i'm saying staying on omex is just a mistake because not only does t2 mex give you more metal it also reduces your energy upkeep

[quaint tiger]

i mean try it

[topaz gale]

i did

[quaint tiger]

staying on omex is very obviously inherently not going to give as good eco as t2 mex

but the tempo from getting t2 units faster than arm/core player can

is the reason you do it

[topaz gale]

you dont get them faster

the arm cor t1 mexes into units is way faster

[quaint tiger]

right so you are on less m as arm

paying 3x as much as belcher for fatboi

which is then reliant on h trans, and even with h trans, much much slower to get to front

and generating significantly less area threat, because slow af

literally cant chase coms

[topaz gale]

you can make other units like quakers very efficiently

like rushing the belcher things is just really bad they dont do real dmg

[quaint tiger]

lol ok rushing belcher is bad

cashing out

[topaz gale]

its bad

[quaint tiger]

it is gamebreaking op atm

[topaz gale]

its not xD

even if somehow the belcher was a strong unit worth rushing

it would still be bad because legion tech need to take all these extra expensive slow steps due to t1mex/omex balance which is really what i wanna talk about

the strenght of glitters as a laboratory on testing viability of strats should not be underestimated

this is how glitters techers are going about solving what unit to make as legion tech xD

after over a week of testing

[quaint tiger]

i mean glitters not renowned for intelligence or innovation

also on barstats you have 0 games as leg

but belcher is bad so wcyd

[topaz gale]

barstats is wrong

you are welcome to come try belchers into fatboy

[untold crane]

Legion is nit good at tech that doesnt have 3.0+ mex. It can compete with arm/core t1 0 mexes

[untold crane]

This is mitigated if make just 1 on value spot for a while, but ya, you Omex when you've reached the point youre porc spamming to hold front

[untold crane]

Timings matter. Legion has the ability to shove out value t2 units while everyone else is upgrading to t2 mex via Omex + asolar eco. You just need to have gotten up several Omexes first.

Thats said the better play is duo in VC, tech as arm, and buy t1 legion con from ally for t2 lab

[untold crane]

Pintle is, i think, 40+ os. His games are nit with noobs who do weird shit for no reason or just sit afk (usually)

[untold crane]

Glitters is awful for tech testing though. Fronts get almost 2x the metal of techer on it
You want to do SI for tests, or carrot mountain if you want slightly lower mex value testing

[topaz gale]

its a decent average of what you get on most tech spots

[untold crane]

Yech testing needs to be aware that there are other players tho
Tech only matters as much as it gets more stuff than front. Atg you can have marauder rushes that lose to canyon purely on comm placement and walls and a single fatboy on a hill. And rb that doesnt insta win vs t2 bc front tech in front of actual tech gets t2 nearly the same time just from having more mex access

Legions value as texher is only where

• All people are kinda poor
• Legion can Omex into Asolar with value
• Legion can t2 about when other texher goes t2
• Legion can t2 while 0 fronts are t2
  In those circumstances, Legion Belcher ruins t1 units (bc napalm is anti t1) and hoplite walks past t1 defenses while killing it.
  While vs things like med tanks and janus/pounder. As enemy player is trying to make t2 mex.
  It is this transition phase where Legion early ish t2 is strong

[topaz gale]

my issue is that you need to buy 1 extra asolar for every 3 omex which is a cost you dont have to pay when you execute a lean arm/cor t2 unit rush

you are just able to field less slower

[untold crane]

You can argue eco as much as you want because it is purely math, but the game is not purely math as soon as combat units hit the field

[topaz gale]

because the early investments cripple you

[untold crane]

I mean again, you have to play in not a vacuum. And do it well ig.
You dont need many Omex. 1 holds you stable, 2-3 plays steady catchup. If you are playing only wind gaming it takes like 4 mins to pull even with core, closer to 5 with arm.

[topaz gale]

its not even because they just put all the metal u put into omex and asolar to support said omex into their lab and have it up way way faster

[untold crane]

And then youre building t2 units on that level of eco.
As pintle said though, legion gets staggeringly op with amphib lab play, since you can make triton/telchine out of lab that costs 1400 less m

[untold crane]

I see you only care about math of eco and not math of cost. Or math of opportunity. The game has more than 1 variable

[topaz gale]

i care about how it really is yes

[untold crane]

Thats a lie or you'd factor in the other variables. But w/e, do you. Not gonna stress it

[topaz gale]

practical examples supported with comparison stats of who reached unit on field first/metal produced at critical timings in the game etc,..are welcome

[quaint tiger]

just play leg rotato ever

belcher is bad tho lmaowtf

actual insane take

[topaz gale]

belcher is extremely bad into fatboy

tech diff on rotato is more or less a standard feature of gamemode so its a worse example to use when compared to figured out glitters and supreme metas

when what you are trying to asses is how leg tech compares to arm/cor

[quaint tiger]

why would you fight fatboy with belcher

3 belchers vs 1 fatboy = you win the map and fatboy gets no value cos slow

nobody proposed you try and kill a fatboy with 1 belcher

[quaint tiger]

this is insane

[topaz gale]

meta is 2 fatboys from tech

[quaint tiger]

then 6 belcher

every 1 fatboy is 3 belcher

except the belcher arrives much earlier

[topaz gale]

the belchers are impossible to make fast unless you accept you will be completely poor and behind on eco

you cannot

[quaint tiger]

that's just objectively untrue

[topaz gale]

compare it 1:1 because of eco diffirences

[quaint tiger]

and you are WAY ahead on map control

[untold crane]

K, pintle is not saying you fight the fatboys with belchers. He's saying you win every lane around the one the fatboy is in. At which point you can actually beat fatboys with just dog piling grunts and hoplite

[quaint tiger]

because the first 2 belchers arrive and kill lane long before fatboy waddles out of the lab

he doesn't care about reality

he has a narrative

[topaz gale]

you just need to watch some of the recent op glitter lobby replays to get a better perspective

[quaint tiger]

i really dont

[topaz gale]

u do ur clueless more or less on how its played

[quaint tiger]

i am really not

[untold crane]

Voncomet is not arguing BAR though. He is arguing eco testing. 'Because that is the only real variable'. So you wont get through to him

[quaint tiger]

he is arguing that belcher loses to fatboy

like idek where to begin

he just has a narrative

[topaz gale]

based on practical experience yes

[untold crane]

Because he can only imagine them in a fight

[quaint tiger]

opponent is literally afk with the first 2 belcher

[untold crane]

He cant conceive of map control as the goal

[quaint tiger]

cant impact map till approved fatboy timing

[untold crane]

I mean he literally thinks that timings dont matter, wcyd?

[quaint tiger]

50+ os players calling belcher win button

but the glittards know you arent allowed to use it before fatboy arrives

[untold crane]

Bro EVERY RTS player thinks in terms of comparative timings. Voncomet doesn't think they matter. Let that sink in and leave it be xD

[topaz gale]

[untold crane]

What you have matters very little. What does matter is when yiu have it, and what your opponent can have at that same time. This isnt even RTS basics. Its fundamentals. You cant have an rts conversation without having that as your baseline of thought

[topaz gale]

I know legion was domain of nubs for a long time but it was gonna change eventually

[quaint tiger]

come legion rotato op lobbies

min 20 lobby up rn

come teach us

[topaz gale]

you say that but you ignored every single thing i said about timings so far

[untold crane]

You said timings dont matter and failed to engage with any map control arguments, wtf do you mean? W/e

[topaz gale]

like i cant xd, when did i say that

[quaint tiger]

i mean you said belcher bad and it loses to fatboy

[topaz gale]

all i'm trying to fucking talk about is how legion timings on tech are fucking slower

[quaint tiger]

ignoring the fact fatboy doesnt exist at the time frame where belcher is winning the game

[untold crane]

"i care about how it really is yes"
--voncomet
In response to

"I see you only care about math of eco and not math of cost. Or math of opportunity. The game has more than 1 variable"
--Ee'O
Wtf is that even if it isnt saying timings dont matter (mong many other things), jfc youre actually dumb ig im over it muted

[topaz gale]

ur talking about nonsense abstractions

[sonic cradle]

a T2 mex is 4X yes.

[shy galleon]

legion has low value mex, legion front is pure teching and relies on first high impact unit

so ofc it sucks there

legion rainbow or anti canyon might be something tho

[untold crane]

Legion ATG in either corner seems to work fine. Pushing canyon or defending it. It has issues the closer to rainbow you go, but you can give Cor fronts a pack of satyrs and make them stronger. Or just micro the satyrs yourself. Either way, Legion works best in the support role

[topaz gale]

I was trying to put together some kind of 1medusa1mobile hive rush strat into cons that uses oc mexes in some way that helps me but problems started far before field testing

its also competely unlikely the units can deal with 2 fatboys, i know

achieving any kind of competitive timings with any leg strat on glitters tech seems like a mission impossible

[errant sparrow]

The T2 labs are designed not to have early stomp units, like the Medusa is hard to build early

Partly because in theory you can omex into them

[topaz gale]

obviously not every faction is gonna be equal on every position, every map

[errant sparrow]

Yeah, still interested in making your tech rush workable though

[topaz gale]

well you need some oc mex to afford medusa metal cost but you cant also have all the e you need to power oc mex and the medusa construction

so all variants end up too slow

[errant sparrow]

Mostly intended

But how bad is it

[topaz gale]

I think that a good test would be to try making a medusa from arm eco with a leg con

i will try that next time

[errant sparrow]

Makes sense

[topaz gale]

maybe secret leg tech is to share t1 cons and queue oc mexes

prob just estall everyone 😅

[errant sparrow]

Yeah that's a recipe to have no units sadly

But you can battery from eco to do it

[topaz gale]

oh leg style commie 💀

[errant sparrow]

Communism with Legion characteristics

[topaz gale]

It also kinnda avoids most of the tax lol

they just need to deal with upkeep

[shy galleon]

it's just a bad map for it

uh there might be something like E into omex into units but legion lacks a good t2 rush unit

arquebus is too expensive like a banisher

maybe you could do omex walk forward lab into something

also legion economy is worse than arm/cor except the omex

[untold crane]

Amphib labs tho

[untold crane]

U found it

[topaz gale]

all napalm including perdition stacks twice right?

[errant sparrow]

*excluding Perdition

because I thought this would be holdover napalm code but it uh is still here

Perdition instead of 2x stacking does something like, idr, 1.25x stacking? I can redo the math if you are mathing out any interactions

[topaz gale]

hm interesting, 1.25 is good enough👍

I think 1 didnt kill an ageo I targeted (may have gotten some repairs) but I guess 2 should

[errant sparrow]

If that doesn't work, you're incentivized a bit to launch with some time between, a couple seconds maybe, to get non-overlap damage

Ah yeah 2 should do it though.

[shy galleon]

perdition seems to suck

blowing up without wreck is preferable and often the dmg can get out repaired

lolturrets

[errant sparrow]

I'd avoid it, but I get the appeal of a tac launcher, even if it's less effective

[shy galleon]

the burn strength might have to be exaggerated i dunno

[errant sparrow]

The use case earlier for an ageo doesn't matter much, but every time someone wants to use a Perdition, it's something like that. "Everything just barely survived" etc

[untold crane]

The problem with DoT gameplay.
Just magnified in RTS game

instant ttk is always preferable to not, and not leaving behind resources that soften damage is preferable to doing so
Napalm artillery largely fails on both fronts

Though it does have some benefits over emp/tac, I'm just not sure they're valuable from a faction design sense. Legion doesn't really need a napalm tac missile, it already has belcher and inferno for that. It kinda needs a 'fuck you from way over here' button, or a 'fuck you from right in front of your face button'

[errant sparrow]

It deals more total damage than the Cortex tac and technically Paralyzer too. Just with a bunch of caveats.

I don't want it to become an all-purpose weapon with too much damage buff. And it takes up a huge amount of particle budget, until it gets a graphics update soonish inshallah it will be done, so I am kind of just fine with it sucking tbh

[untold crane]

This is how DoTs work always, yes.

[balmy steeple]

Isn't the T1 popup turret *very *OP on maps with buildable high terrain near the frontlines? Like canyon on glitters?

[sonic cradle]

the Cortex flamethrower popup turret has 10 more range and almost tripple the DPS for the exact same cost.

Legion's lil riot cannon just has a good splash radius.

[topaz gale]

It gains elevation range which makes it very busted feeling

if you are legion there is really no good way to kill it

due to lack of real arty unit

but the other factions also struggle

It is also a t1 popup specific thing that there is a lot of places mid cliff and the like where you can place them where a normal turret would not fit

but yeah with the range bonus its probably op

no other unit offers such complete area denial for so cheap

I think someone called it the thugwhacker2000 which is apt

[balmy steeple]

Would it make sense to convert that into something that doesn't get range bonus on elevated terrain?

[sonic cradle]

the only weapon types in legion's arsonel that do not get range buffs from range are railguns and heatrays.
Cannons, of any kind, getting more range when firing at something at a lower elevation is just kind of a function they all have.
Unless i'm mistaken and that can be turned off but I'm not sure it can.

[errant sparrow]

This was the path chosen for the Pounder so yeah possibly so

I'd rather limit its range boost from height than limit what slopes you can build it on and things like that. It should fit about where a Claw or Maw would.

Good unit though, consistently a Legion favorite.

[sonic cradle]

the high impulse of it makes it preferable to the pharos in the majority of situations.

and a better speedbump than a hive

for the cost

[untold crane]

It gets some elevated bonus. the riot turret*. But legion's actual tower, Cacophony, is a bad HLT and a bad DLLT, so it seems balanced as a whole. Dragon jaw requiring hills to be good is a pretty solid faction-reinforcing buff since legion likes being on hills anyway

Of course, going the route of removing every part of legion that has anything to do with being better than arm or core is also an option, why not do that too

[sonic cradle]

Pharos
Kind of the worst llt. It's there tho
Hive. Wonderful amount of area coverage. Advantages and disadvantages of drones tho.
Cacophony, accuracy issues at range unless it's high veterancy. Good otherwise but expensive.

And the dragons jaw

Best average range multi purpose turret legion has at t1 for not a bad cost

[balmy steeple]

Rather think that the route is "balance whatever is potentially broken". The T1 popup turret is op because you can build it on high terrain in many places (it has a minimal footprint) and gets insane elevation range.
Sure, it fits Legions, but it doesn't work with the current balance.

[quaint tiger]

doesn't it literally have pounder weapon?

I am not sure being shorter range and lower dps can count as OP; it has a situational niche (in the same way t1 plasma is cheaper and ergo faster but otherwise just objectively worse)

[errant sparrow]

Yes, and the Pounder got a recent update

[sonic cradle]

it's got the lowest DPS of any of the T1 popup turrets and primarily relies on it's high impulse and splash radius.

Letting it have some extra range based on terrain really isn't a big deal.

[topaz gale]

problem is that its so much range that it makes attacking into it impossible and leads to frontline staring contests

oh u built that, i guess all my units are completely useless and i have to side tech into either gauntlet or veh arty

[quaint tiger]

generally missile trucks counter 90% of legion's t1 options

this is not an exception

[sonic cradle]

rocket bots also exist and are gennerally meant to siege buildings.

[topaz gale]

also i love how the balance complaints are in this thead while strategy is in the other one xd

[errant sparrow]

This is the "productive balance complaints" thread

[topaz gale]

can alaris trade well into blitz?

i often dont know if I should be building helios or alaris

[quaint tiger]

outranges and is faster

loses trades horribly

huge apm sink but can win hard

alaris dies horribly to incisor

so in mixed/teams its a very niche unit

helios is kinda just bad, but it outranges com and can poke passive/bads

[balmy steeple]

Yeah, just "a little extra range", no big deal 🤷

[topaz gale]

fyi for anyone struggling with that specific jaw rush, the counter is commander capture, its inredibly fast due to jaws low bp cost so if you dont selfd instantly its rip

[topaz gale]

seems like alaris give me a better fighting chance in most situations

[quaint tiger]

what you do is you suffer until gladiators

or you forward lab lance and llt

[sonic cradle]

The spot up choose as an example being an extreme case scenario requiring an air con, or t2 leg combat engineer.
If you can get it up to that spot safely then you've earned that advantage

Air con investment is expensive
And t1 porc off t2 con is already favoring the enemy more

[balmy steeple]

Have you ever played Glitters? You build that with a normal con from the ground below

[sonic cradle]

Glitters is a rare map these days. Haven't played it in a while.
So never had a chance to try this

[topaz gale]

both anti canyon and canyon player made highground jaws and are now staring at eachother unable to fight

both grind their position nonstop and could be considered experts

so they know what is strong or not

also the ranges being displayed are bugged its larger

i just havent clicked on them yet so they didnt update to highground value

[errant sparrow]

@left silo Can we standardize the other riot cannons? Legion has 4 riot units w/ pounder cannons, only the one above has bad interactions though.

This is mostly working as intended, though. Map design here is to create an impasse.

[topaz gale]

I think some elevation range gain is fine, but consider that the current ranges can also be slightly cheezed with splash by targeting the edge

so the range is really huge

[safe sluice]

Other legion riot cannon units are less used on high hills, "phalanx", "chimera", "enyo".

This use case have counter, dragon's jaws can be very easy captured with a com near hill, and the popup can't shoot very close to the hill it is built.

In same time Pounder having his riot cannon without hill bonus is weird and break cannon logic bonus range on hills.

I mean, pitbull have 800 velocity and got hill bonus, chimera have 850 velocity, just let all riot cannon weapon be coherent with "Plasma cannon bonus range on hills".
Pounder have 540 velocity and got negate his "bonus range on hill" for whatever reason compared to a dragon's jaw at 600 velocity, make no sense.

[errant sparrow]

5 units, I forgot the Leocampus

[safe sluice]

Oooh, indeed, but boat can't go on hill by definition

[errant sparrow]

Yes so it just wasn't a consideration for either of us :P

[balmy steeple]

Yeah but the t1 dynamics are different when no legion with it's t1 pop-up cannon is taken into account. The other factions have no benefit in rushing a cheap t1 defense over there.

[left silo]

Yes we should. The Pounder isn't working perfectly as intended either, though. There's at least an inaccuracy in how the range circle is drawn. The height difference between the hill top and canyon ground is more than pounder range, so it can't fire - but the range circle doesn't properly show that.

Contrast with llt for example where the range circle does show that it cant fire downhill

[errant sparrow]

Yeah we probably pick the range type based on weapon type and not based on all the weapon's properties

[modest sundial]

anything can die to scouts

[sonic cradle]

The behemoths dies to its metal in ticks

[gloomy fulcrum]

Doesn’t the stomp kill ticks

Am I insane I thought that it did minor damage when moving

[sonic cradle]

yes

but that's a Lot of ticks.

[gloomy fulcrum]

This has been tested hasn’t it

And it only loses if stationary