Legion Strategy Thread

[errant sparrow]

Please do not take 3 minutes to reinforce a losing lane. In short

[untold crane]

You could probably build a seaplane lab, 10 seaplanes, and build a full harbor with sea nanos in the time it takes scylla to walk 800 units

[mighty shoal]

Behemoth (`corjugg`)

(barely) Mobile Heavy Turret

Faction: Cortex
Health: 335'000 hp
Cost: 20'000 M / 513'000 E / 630'000 B
Speed: 16 / 50 accel / 21° per sec turning
Vision: 720 / 1'080 (air)

Weapons

[2x] LightLaser
DPS: 250 (75 dmg, 0.30s reload)
Range: 435 (12 splash)
Can hit: Boats, Ground

GaussCannon
DPS: 300 (1'200 dmg, 4.00s reload)
Range: 590 (65 splash)
Can hit: Air, Boats, Ground

LightLaser
DPS: 321 (150 dmg, 0.47s reload)
Range: 550 (12 splash)
Can hit: Air, Boats, Ground

Model by: FireStorm | generated in 30ms | updated every 4 hours

Scylla (`leganavybattleship`)

Hybrid Cross-Terrain Battleship

Faction: Legion
Health: 9'000 hp
Cost: 2'900 M / 21'000 E / 36'000 B
Speed: 25 / 4 accel / 15° per sec turning
Vision: 600 / 900 (air)

Weapons

[2x] Heavy long-range g2g plasma cannon
DPS: 300 (3x burst, 270 dmg, 2.70s reload)
Range: 750 (200 splash)
Can hit: Boats, Ground

[2x] Medium Shotgun
DPS: 100 (10x pellets, 20 dmg, 2.00s reload)
Range: 500 (16 splash)
Can hit: Boats, Ground

Model by: ZephyrSkies | generated in 17ms | updated every 4 hours

[untold crane]

comparable speeds

[shy galleon]

800/25 is 30ish seconds

And it covers mid while crossing

[untold crane]

fair, but if mid isn't 'won', there are probably things shooting the shit out of them too. either starlights or sharpshooters or banishers

assuming nothing contesting the slow waddle though, it IS probably somewhat better than just making a second harbor

[errant sparrow]

Yeah if you have to go around mid instead of through it then maybe just call it off

[frigid veldt]

What’s the highest impact t2 vehicle / bot from legion? Same sort of impact as Quakers at 6 mins of starlights at 9 mins. I think Medusa is viable but kinda expensive.

[shy galleon]

quaker is like silent op unit

probably the strongest unit people don't complain about that much

there really isn't one

you can play thanathos angle with like 2 phalanx

[jovial kite]

I'm favouring the meduse as a starlight equivalent. You can get them out a little faster as starlights as you don't have the energy cost associated to it.

They one-shot enemy starlight while taking a hit from them, and comfortably bully away T1 and fatboys

• They can actually shoot while running away

[untold crane]

You can do cleaver, but like all cluster arty you need several to have good impact.
Could actually be something like boreas+inferno, but thats not happening at min 6.
Its worth noting that the dusa has 1000 range, though. And hits multiple targets.
But if youre specifically looking for Quaker level impact, my best result has actually come from the botlab. Make about 10 phalanx, then about 15 hoplite, put the phalanx in a horizontal line and the hoplite in a vertical 2-file one, then just walk into enemy lane with phalanx. Once the phalanx is about halfway through send hoplite and just run straight to eco bases. Is actually a pretty devastating combo, and you can follow up with a few infestor or eidolon to reclaim the field

A more skirmish option is 8 arqs and a radar+jammer bot. Needs a fusion to power though.
And the incinerator is just a tragically slow Razorback.
Last option is x10 thanatos. Is a catapult if you have them all fire at the same time. Doesn't hit at min 6 though. More like 8? Kinda depends on how wind is. Really though, most of this hits at around min 8-10, which is kinda just how legion is. If you want a min 12 push you can get an ally or 2 to make some scoutspam and just support it with a prometheus and a bunch of Mantis/Charon too
Actually I just remembered you can probably make mass decurion+lance in a 1:3 ratio thats pretty rough to defend vs at around min 6. And you can do that as a front, so spamming it out with t2 economy isnt really a problem

[jovial kite]

10 phalanx, then about 15 hoplite => This costs waaaay more than the other ones though.

I just tested the cleavers in a skirmish, and despite their displayed dps being a mere 38, 4 of them seem to chew through units far far quicker than the medusa for a similar cost. Need to test them in an actual game to see how they perform though

[minor kestrel]

The cluster arties' unit card does not account for their fragments damage

[frigid veldt]

have tried their cluster artillery (quaker/mauser replacement) and it feels very lacklustre

[karmic stump]

legion will be lackluster in many area until we get the graces of a balancing patch. Many units are a little under while some are op by a big margin making the choices in the rosters quick and sad.
Like theres no realistic reason to do something else than veh t2 because bots only have phalanxes that are op (the rest is too meh, incinerator can just be bullied from range, for exemple, arq need too many of them to work, etc) .
So any 'not trolling' t2 leg is, imo, 3-4 meds + jammer anad radar, then prometheus 5+ with massive e amount and u take all that and right click the front at 12-15 depending on map

because medusa redirect fire is actually a bit too op and prometheuses damage output is so much better than any other.

[untold crane]

Its worth noting that you may want to follow up a prometheus push with some unit that can shoot over them since they do 0 damage to units behind wreckage, but ya Azure basically perfectly described legions main issue: its key units are too good, and its utility units are too meh.
You could try 2-3 Belcher with 10 or so hoplite and see how that works as a raid group. Or go boreas +mantis+dusa+Charon squad to slowpush amd kill anything that gets near you, but thats also basically a vulnerability timing attack you want to have hitting when enemy is transitioning to t3 lab

But I've found that, as legion, its better to just skip to t3 if possible and start spamming out keres until every front has 2 or so, or you alone have 5-6. Then you go daedylus and push with 3 of those. Its pretty hard to stop, and has enough weight to fight early t3 units well. And then you get myrmidons to start massing heavy drones to combo with daedylus nuke to fight heavy t3 stuff via flanking damage and roughly 3k dps before said flanking damage is calculated

Just.... dont ever build more than 2 praetorians. They're in a weird spot right now and kinda suck

[upper notch]

nothing. That's why legion t2 is so ass. They got like 4 good units in total across both lab.

[shy galleon]

that's not true

i guess the arquebus downside is it can't be transported in a trans

yeh they don't have an good t2 effiency unit

the gladiator and cleaver suck

they have a lot of other utility tho

[untold crane]

I like how A- tier is just 'every t2 unit, with a couple exceptions' lol.
Drones I still dont think are broken op. I'd put them at A+, but it is difficult to tune them well given what they do and what they need to be statted for to be able to do it meaningfully

[frigid veldt]

charon in A tier? compared to flak truck those things felt useless

[untold crane]

did you compare within the last week?
They now have small flak radius

[frigid veldt]

oh, ok, no i didnt

[untold crane]

Check again. I think they've achieved 'being very good', while still needing to be in pairs - but a pair of charons outperforms a pair of arm or core flak trucks i feel, because they don't have dps downtime.
They probably need a dps nerf to balance it out

Aquilon I think is also an outdated judgement. It also has microflak and now also has 1050 range on the railgun, putting it in-line with the other t2 aa bots

Also, people probably use infestors incorrectly. They're combat repair + wreckage field cleanup bots that follow up other pushes. Dont use them as sneaky base infiltrators, at least not in 8v8. You just get to rebuild them on the fly at forward positions instead of using lab bp to rebuild them.
You can also use them to assist proteuses. They can protect the proteus from getting ganked, and since they're stealthy it makes it difficult for your opponents to know what's actually going on or how much time they have to solve w/e threat the proteus is building

[frigid veldt]

what does telchine even do

[untold crane]

Daedylus is possibly overtuned in the scenario where it is only built when it is good to have built it and not something else.
At least in lower tier gameplay or thus far in my experience playing against higher rated people unfamiliar with them, though, they die very fast to people who figure out how to jump on them and only sorta hold back units like Titans and Juggs, which are ostensibly the actual 'prey' of the Daedylus. And even then they need help from myrmidon drone scouting

[karmic stump]

blow up with prometheuses lasers coast things

[untold crane]

defend coasts. Which is more properly read,<they are the king of shallow water battlefields>

The laser only shoots in a 180 degree angle (its fired from the face), but it is this thing

[mighty shoal]

Telchine (`legamph`)

Advanced Amphibious Assault Bot/Coast Guard

Faction: Legion
Health: 2'750 hp
Cost: 600 M / 13'200 E / 13'200 B
Speed: 48 / 93 accel / 74° per sec turning
Vision: 450 / 675 (air)
Sonar: 700

Weapons

Depthcharge launcher
DPS: 117 (350 dmg, 3.00s reload)
Range: 600 (32 splash)
Can hit: NOTHOVER

Heavy g2g Cleansing Heat Ray
DPS: 25 (148 dmg, 6.00s reload)
Range: 400 (64 splash)
Can hit: Boats, Ground

Model by: Johanthan Crimson, Tuerk | generated in 48ms | updated every 4 hours

[frigid veldt]

oh it has depth charge, op

i was wondering what makes it coast guard

[untold crane]

With reactive armor up, it has EHP of around 6k. idr if it is a 1k or 1.2k hp shield though

[frigid veldt]

so good for taking back sea?

[karmic stump]

cant fire the depth charge while in water tho D:

[untold crane]

No. It sinks in water

It literally is just a puddle bully. It takes 6 to kill a despot in laser range.

[frigid veldt]

wait what? so it can't defend itself in water? LOL

poor guy

[untold crane]

It's an odd set of design choices

But its like that bc the devs needed to make 'not a duck, not a plat, not a triton, not a hover'

It is a unit that will probably get reimagined in some way later down the line

[karmic stump]

nope, worse duck/plati etc, dunno why devs made it that way 🙁

[frigid veldt]

make a floating duck with depth charges anti air and a fucking green laser pew pew motherfuckers

like unironically make a platy + duck

god tier sea retake unit

[untold crane]

that is this

[mighty shoal]

Charybdis (`legehovertank`)

Heavy Assault Hovertank

Faction: Legion
Health: 4'900 hp
Cost: 1'350 M / 25'000 E / 33'000 B
Speed: 63 / 20 accel / 49° per sec turning
Vision: 600 / 900 (air)
Sonar: 550

Weapons

Depthcharge Launcher
DPS: 112 (225 dmg, 2.00s reload)
Range: 400 (24 splash)
Can hit: CANBEUW UNDERWATER

Heavy Sweepfire Heatray
DPS: 75 (225 dmg, 3.00s reload)
Range: 425 (64 splash)
Can hit: Boats, Ground

[2x] Parabolic Trajectory Multi-Rocket Launcher
DPS: 50 (3x burst, 100 dmg, 6.00s reload)
Range: 500 (100 splash)
Can hit: Boats, Ground

Model by: Gabs/ShadowsAIT & ZephyrSkies (Model), Protar (Concept Art) | generated in 12ms | updated every 4 hours

[untold crane]

Pairs well with tritons

[frigid veldt]

double cost i dont care but sea retake is so important for supreme

[mighty shoal]

Triton (`legfloat`)

Heavy Convertible Tank/Boat

Faction: Legion
Health: 3'500 hp
Cost: 650 M / 12'000 E / 12'000 B
Speed: 55 / 31 accel / 58° per sec turning
Vision: 500 / 750 (air)

Weapons

Rapid-fire machine gun
DPS: 105 (6x burst, 7 dmg, 0.40s reload)
Range: 400 (16 splash)
Can hit: Air, Boats, Ground

Medium g2g gauss cannon
DPS: 100 (250 dmg, 2.50s reload)
Range: 550 (32 splash)
Can hit: Boats, Ground

Model by: EnderRobo | generated in 33ms | updated every 4 hours

[frigid veldt]

i think best sea retake (from eco pov) is just making those battleships in the pond

[untold crane]

no you'd go t3 hovers. Theyre kinda amazing actually

[frigid veldt]

really? ok let me check

[untold crane]

get like 10-15 of them

put vs typical t2 fleet for retake

[frigid veldt]

also why can we talk so much in this thread? all the other threads in this forum are like 1min cd and i hate it because im autistic and type like 3 words in a message

[untold crane]

bonus points if geo helps with triton fleet too

[frigid veldt]

ok what the fk they are fast as fuck boiiiii

[untold crane]

Bc it isn't a huge issue here. People talk about problems, react quickly, and usually have dissertation-like thoughts anyway to get their whole problem out and explained

[frigid veldt]

can they shoot down or not, i assume not

[untold crane]

they shoot down, not up

[frigid veldt]

btw is ajax that good?

i saw people talking shit about it

[untold crane]

They're probably the best 'retake sea unit'

[frigid veldt]

but i remember it being broken

[untold crane]

Ajax is good or bad depending on situation

[frigid veldt]

situation is i have 10 afus and need to make best AA unit in the game

(that flies)

[untold crane]

ajax is a flying turret. That means it kills quite quickly and efficiently, but they need to be in a cloud of other units so they dont get taken out themselves, cuz they also stop moving once they get in range

if you are on 10 afus, just make venators out of 3 labs on repeat. You care more about the flak than the dps efficiency

Ajax is more for transitioning from t1 fig spam to t2 fig spam

[frigid veldt]

really venator > ajax

[untold crane]

you get up to about 30 at most, then stop making them

[frigid veldt]

i guess they nerfed it or something

[untold crane]

no, its just that ajax has less range than t2 figs

and not enough hp to tank them

venator does too, but it moves so fast it gets into range before it gets hit most of the time

[frigid veldt]

are core/arm better?

[untold crane]

to put it this way, if you have 150-200 t1 legion figs, you build up to 30 ajax and spread them out in your fig wall, then eco up a bit and spam venators

depends on the engagement and depends on what the fight amounts to. Metal per metal, noctua slightly loses to t1 fig spam. But if you put 5 ajax into that noctua cloud, you decimate the arm/cor fig cloud without a contest.

[frigid veldt]

i see, so you want a mix

not as simple as spam t2 x 10000

[untold crane]

Venator does move into that territory though

but they dont matter if enemy doesnt have enough figs that their flak isnt hitting multiple figs per shot

Legion air is interesting bc you actually want to have a t1 air lab most of the game, for this exact reason

[frigid veldt]

essentially noctua to draw shots, ajax few, venators the main component of the army

hows my composition looking

[untold crane]

Once you figure out the feel for how much you want and when, the only real drawback of legion air is that their only 'good' gunship is the tyrannus, the flying phalanx seaplane, and the mosquito

Get about 50 more noctua

and you where you want to be

~ so at least

depends on if enemy is spamming pure t2 figs too though. the later the game, the more venator you want.

I also recommend you put noctua and ajax on one control group and venator on another. You want noctuas to open the fight and ajax right behind them, with venators joining right as the clouds clash their main masses

[frigid veldt]

thx for the assistance with the legion learning

i will soon be a master

[untold crane]

gl. I hope to see someone with greater mechanical skill use the faction correctly for once lol

[frigid veldt]

i think they have some great components, as do all civs

factions*

i wish their winds were more balanced

like they are just so much more expensive

[untold crane]

Theyre balanced to be not-quite-chain-reactible
which is important bc you can't afford to rebuild them if they get taken out

[frigid veldt]

like give a baseline of +1 e no matter the wind speed or something

[frigid veldt]

alt shift z*

[untold crane]

no i mean they have enough hp that you can put them in columns of 2, and kill 1 and 1 next to it, and you will only get the adjacent winds to 10% or so hp

you cannot chain kill them as built by 2 by x columns

[frigid veldt]

you cant do that to arm/core either

[untold crane]

core and arm* chain to kill 3 down the line and 5 down the line or so
could be off by a bit, but they take a lot more eco damage when a couple winds die than legion does

[jovial kite]

Rows of 2 survive from cor at the very least

Legion rows of 3 still die

[frigid veldt]

same with arm

[jovial kite]

So not really a difference

[untold crane]

hm

[jovial kite]

The 10 extra health is not going to matter

[frigid veldt]

even if they did survive i'd feel absolutely ripped off

[untold crane]

now i go test to see where the difference lies

[frigid veldt]

need something tangible

i like the idea of like base wind = 5-15

if wind speed is 6

they give 7

[jovial kite]

That

[frigid veldt]

if wind speed is 12

they give 13

[jovial kite]

's a bit confusing

[frigid veldt]

like always +1 e

[untold crane]

otherwise ya I'd agree they need to be cheaper, or give slightly more, cuz they need the eco somehow

[frigid veldt]

baseline +1 e

so more immune to windstall basically

(faction already rather immune to wind stall because of e from mex)

[untold crane]

the t1 mexes already are immune, but ya, more is better

[frigid veldt]

(so goes with that same theme)

[untold crane]

ya fair point

hopping on now to check windmill vulnerability, brb

[jovial kite]

Just checking out the Telchine (coast guard). These things are hard to understand. Pretty much need them to keep them on land, as soon as they are in the water (which they look like they belong), they don't do anything anymore. Good for defensive action against escorted missile ships, but they are not retaking sea

The t3 hovercraft also seems worse than the triton to get back the sea

Both of them are too slow to not get kited though compared to platys which run through, or surprise ducks

You need to get a flank off with them, they do chew through battleships and cruisers metal to metal if you get them close enough

[untold crane]

Ya its all the same. Useless difference.

[jovial kite]

If they had enough health to be build in rows of 3 instead of 2, there might be some use, but even then, you probably want the armada ones

[untold crane]

You mostly want tritons with your Charybdis, for this reason, but yes. Charybdis DOES however succeed in pushing back navies, and can be used to kill either labs or bases, which then sets the sea player back enough they cant do a lot besides be threatening

[jovial kite]

Tritons seem to be able to do that by themselves just fine though

With the added bonus of having anti-air built in

And not having to spend 8k metal on a t3 lab

[untold crane]

Ya but they dont kill uw, so you do less important damage there. Atm tritons just force sea player to gift all their metal to eco for commie revenge

and triton aa is not 'good', its just 'there'. You just feel bad fighting them when you have to fight 30 of them, bc 30 t1 aa units is still 30 t1 aa units

[jovial kite]

It's anti-shuriken/martyr aa

[untold crane]

and they also dissuade the typical 5-10 torp bombers, yes.

it forces a larger commitment

arm winds build so fast though smh

since I can, im testing 3 by x rows.
And Lo!

not to mention legion, even core can stand to lose three winds from the edge. now we test a cluster from the opposite end

nah cant do it

though legion did take 1 extra tick to get there

[frigid veldt]

definitely worth the +5 metal cost

[untold crane]

Could be something to be said for giving them another 10-15 hp though

i mean the difference between core wind and arm wind is 34 hp for 3 metal. Legion could get another 12 and be about on point for that ratio
atm is only a difference of 10. a 22 hp difference instead would probably let it be x3 rows and be fine. Actually, let me tweak this

[karmic stump]

sadge moment when we legionnaire pay the price of no balance

[frigid veldt]

if they made wind turbines that were like 35 metal but half the hp i'd take them over arm

even like one third hp i'd still take it

even 1 hp i'd still take it ngl

thats the difference 5 metal makes

[untold crane]

ik. it means, at a minimum, that for every 9 winds arm makes, you made 8.

plus arm probably made it faster since their units have 5 more bp too

Also this is keeping in mind that if arm made 6 metal, you made 5.2 or so. So not only are you scaling less e than arm is, youre doing so with less metal, while making buildings that require more of it.

Which is why it is VERY important that you, as legion, get your first Omex up as fast as possible. Because that's how you bridge the gap
Good news is you can do so on 8 winds and a full Estore with 4 total mexes.

[frigid veldt]

legion gonna go hard in 1v1 thats for sure

[shy galleon]

Yeh legion a beast in 1v1, so many options

Mainly alaris, and then helios vs incisor

In tourney people found that while saytr is more mobile than then thug the can't fight toe to toe after a certain number (partial losses)

[untold crane]

Thugwalk is still viable, just it gets pressured slighly while you build it up

Main point is thugs actually have the hp to soak hits, while satyrs just... dont.

[shy galleon]

Satyr have better raw stat and are much faster tho

[untold crane]

like with all mobile legion, you just advance a wall into them until they have nowhere left to run to

but ya 1v1 is different from lane maps

[untold crane]

true

[shy galleon]

Satry can be really good but you need to be very good at repair and micro

[untold crane]

i mean ya, that's true of any skirmisher though

[shy galleon]

Also they die to infantry so you have to think about how to cover them

[untold crane]

its just interesting to see that play in t1

[untold crane]

karks. or pharos

[shy galleon]

Well goblins beat infantry but satrys are slower and need cover

[untold crane]

kark shreds anything that gets into shotgun range. Which opponents unfamiliar can visualize by cutting a halfway point between where heatray starts firing and the kark itself

that line is typically the point of no return for units the walk into a pack of 5 of them

but again, is also beaten by thugwalk or centurion rocket, so

just slow pressure them to death

actually ngl I'm pretty sure arm at least could just make centurions off the bat vs legion, escort each of its cons with one, and expand and control map kinda fine. You're not going to kill a cent with anything less than 15 goblins, for example
or 5 alaris, even, if vs veh

[untold crane]

I come with glad tidings.

242 hp is literally the exact cutoff needed to allow legion winds to be made in columns of 3

[jovial kite]

They have 230 right?

[untold crane]

this is 242

230 is base

and leads to chain destruction

[jovial kite]

That's what I figured. Would need a buff to them

Would make them actually different instead of just worse

[untold crane]

last wind survives on 2hp without dying

even if it does it actually still stops with that one, the other 2 survive still

[jovial kite]

Played quite a few games on the isthmus as geo trying different things out. Legions seems to be worse at killing t1 compared to Quaker/mauser/starlight/fatboy, but has an advantage over their equivalent as they wither outrange (arty vs arty, and arty vs fatboy) or trade 2 to 1 (starlight vs medusa. Starlight requires 2 shots to kill a medusa, medusa only 1)

So for the cost of having less impact on the t1, you gain more impact on the early t2

[jovial kite]

I'm curious if that would change the equation sufficiently to make it worth it in some situation

[untold crane]

If doing dusa's early, try shift-targetting them across t1 lines. Their missiles do have splash (not huge but still), so they can hit more than one thing, and when combined with retargetting they do pretty well with decent micro
It IS 500 damage per rocket, so yo're not going to 1shot thugs or anything, but they do decently

[jovial kite]

All of those are with heavy micro and manual targetting if needed

You always get a bit of overkill with it. It's really effective at bullying T2, heavy T1, and boats due to the burst damage, but it doesn't have the same impact as an early fatboy/starlight (except it can bully those two away)

[untold crane]

gotcha

Vs pure t1 you'd probably have to go incinerator then. Something like dusa squad + jammer into incinerator maybe? would be time-costly though...

Or you could just make phalanxes, those bully the shit outta t1

[jovial kite]

Incinerator is fun, but needs a fusion to shoot and gets kited easily. It's more a behemoth-light, for pushing enemies away from a position. Too slow as a first units. Pure T1 is either arty or medusa, or phalanx indeed. Phalanx is trickier though, as they are shorter range. Needs the repair micro

[untold crane]

If you're geo you have Ageo for it, if you are willing to take the E hit for further scaling
It can also be lifted by heavy trans, so t2 one would do nicely

[jovial kite]

Yes, but you need the ageo, and then you will be in regular starlight-timing. Which will kill the incenerator

[untold crane]

You'd still want to get the dusas out first though

ya

[jovial kite]

So rushing that is betting (or scouting) that your opponent has no T2 with long range. Could be a fun one to fly around on glitters though and just walk through the defenses

[untold crane]

So the 'technically not stupid' build order would be '2-4 dusa+jammer -> eat lab -> make botlab->make bot con->make t2 botlab -> eat t1 botlab -> make incinerator -> make phalanx

[jovial kite]

That would be for a doom-push yes

[untold crane]

But all those arrows amount to something like 2 mins, which isn't great

a large chunk would be the incinerator, but still

seems you're kinda stuck going mantis-boreas-triton/prometheus if you're going for a timing attack

[jovial kite]

You can skip out on some of the arrows, but yes, transition to bots takes time. Also. Vehiciles has the other fire vehicle which is decent as well for a doom push. So it becomes a question id it's worth it

[untold crane]

incinerator has the bonus of having 700 range and shooting over wreckage most of the time, which the prometheus sucks at

[jovial kite]

True, you can only have 3/4 of them

Before they run into trouble

[untold crane]

Honestly, at least in my experience, prometheus is more like a bulldozer than a tank

[jovial kite]

Also, you definitely need a heavy transport of a front t2 lab for the incenerator. It's slooooow

[untold crane]

They seem best as one=off PUSH BACK THE CRAP kinda units, which you then follow up with triton+gladiator or the dusa/mantis squad
hopefully also with some reclaim-type unit to clear the way for followup units

[jovial kite]

They do feel veeeeery fun, so there's that. And brilliant at holding a lane as long as there are no starlight/sniper

Sadly it's a starlight/sniper meta xd

[untold crane]

and again, i'll just put this here

[mighty shoal]

Razorback (`armraz`)

Battle Mech

Faction: Armada
Health: 13'300 hp
Cost: 3'800 M / 68'000 E / 88'600 B
Speed: 69 / 213 accel / 99° per sec turning
Vision: 450 / 675 (air)

Weapons

Rapid-fire close quarters g2g armor-piercing laser
DPS: 1'099 (6x burst, 116 dmg, 0.63s reload)
Range: 475 (32 splash)
Can hit: Air, Boats, Ground

Model by: PtaQ | generated in 12ms | updated every 4 hours

Incinerator (`leginc`)

(barely) Mobile Heavy Heat Ray

Faction: Legion
Health: 9'000 hp
Cost: 2'300 M / 46'000 E / 55'000 B
Speed: 24 / 53 accel / 20° per sec turning
Vision: 650 / 975 (air)

Weapons

Heavy g2g Sustained Heat Ray
DPS: 1'000 (33 dmg, 0.03s reload)
Range: 725 (72 splash)
Can hit: Boats, Ground

Model by: Protar, Tharsis | generated in 12ms | updated every 4 hours

[untold crane]

If they weren't slower than scylla's they'd be S tier lmao

[jovial kite]

T2.5

[untold crane]

instead they're outranged even by sheldons, so they have a rough time

is what escorts are for though

[jovial kite]

It's very much a: Do you have an answer in 2 business days unit

It's a very fun surprise if there is a navy driveby I can tell you

I just threat it like the static unit that it is ^^ Moving is not it's plan

It only moves by heavy trans

[untold crane]

I never got amazing at dropship micro in sc2, and it was easier there. On the other hand, legion has the tankiest t2 dropship, so maybe there's somethign to be said for going stronghold-incinerator

[errant sparrow]

Aquilon got a bug fixed in its railgun (is it also miniflak now? idk) range so might be a bit better now.

[errant sparrow]

All the fun Legion-y stats are gated behind an extra info flag from gex

[mighty shoal]

Telchine (`legamph`)

Advanced Amphibious Assault Bot/Coast Guard

Faction: Legion
Health: 2'750 hp (50% DR when closed)
Armor: 1'500 hp / 17s recharge
Cost: 600 M / 13'200 E / 13'200 B
Speed: 48 / 93 accel / 74° per sec turning
Vision: 450 / 675 (air)
Sonar: 700

Weapons

Depthcharge launcher (coax_depthcharge)
DPS: 117 (350 dmg, 3.00s reload)
Range: 600 (32 splash)
Can hit: NOTHOVER

Heavy g2g Cleansing Heat Ray (heat_ray)
DPS: 25 (148 dmg [30% to air], 6.00s reload)
Range: 400 (64 splash)
Cost: 300 E/shot
Can hit: Boats, Ground

Model by: Johanthan Crimson, Tuerk | generated in 8ms | updated every 4 hours

[errant sparrow]

1500 HP / 17 second regen

[untold crane]

on a sidenote, gex cannot do advanced solar, or advanced constructor, or vehicle/etc constructor

[untold crane]

Right i forgot about that part

[mighty shoal]

Advanced Solar Collector (`legadvsol`)

Produces 100 Energy

Faction: Legion
Health: 800 hp
Cost: 480 M / 4'200 E / 14'000 B
Vision: 280 / 420 (air)
Energy made: 100 E/sec
E store: 150 E

Model by: EnderRobo | generated in 0ms | updated every 4 hours

[errant sparrow]

There may be a minor bug in the search, though, I see what you mean. Just search by a word in the middle, I used Solar

[mighty shoal]

Unit lookup: `advanced solar collector`

Ambigious unit name found (3 units have this name).
Please use the definition name or wait for the autocomplete to run
Units: Advanced Solar Collector (Armada), Advanced Solar Collector (Cortex), Advanced Solar Collector (Legion)

[untold crane]

ya

but with things like contructors, that means it can be hard to find some of them, since there are so many that the list reaches its limit before displaying all of them

[errant sparrow]

I do think you're still looking at the Medusa, which is extremely expensive but basically packs a Starlight and a Quaker into one unit

The more Medusas you have, the stronger each one of them is, just with the risk accumulation of getting bombed, hit by a missile veh, LRPCed, ...

Skuttled, tbh

Something easier to support might be Prometheus

[vernal inlet]

oh i see the issue

[vernal inlet]

search is a lot smarter now

cc @errant sparrow

[gilded owl]

❤️

[errant sparrow]

That is beautiful. Yeah I think it just didn't catch the first word under some condition? I didn't take enough time to figure it out

[vernal inlet]

the problem was using spaces

because i was splitting the unit name on space, no unit name (once split) had a space in it

now i split the input on spaces too, and a unit is included if it's name contains all of the input words

which is why i can put int "adv bot con", and get "Advanced Construction Bot", even tho bot and con are out of order

[untold crane]

Very nicely done sir/maam, you're a legend

[errant sparrow]

Haha

Yes fastest pika in the west

[untold crane]

bro its so nice to use now fuck ya

you can find units even if you only have the very foggiest idea of what they even are

[mighty shoal]

Legion Heavy Drone (`legheavydrone`)

Heavy Defense Drone

Faction: Legion
Health: 2'250 hp
Cost: 90 M / 1'000 E / 5'000 B
Speed: 180 / 135 accel / 124° per sec turning
Vision: 750 / 1'125 (air)

Weapons

a2g Heat Ray
DPS: 125 (10x burst, 10 dmg, 0.80s reload)
Range: 430
Can hit: Air, Boats, Ground

Model by: Tharsis | generated in 5ms | updated every 4 hours

[untold crane]

'legion heavy drone' actually finds this thing

[vernal inlet]

:3

[errant sparrow]

This post contained disinformation

Aquilon's minigun was replaced with the new Legion miniflak and its range boosted to high heavens on top of the ranging fix to the railgun, which previously was restricted to minigun range arbitrarily.

If the Aquilon isn't good right now then it never will be.

[untold crane]

Its not bad

[spice loom]

5k metal of charons kill 5k metal of mantis XD

[vast frost]

cleaver

[vast frost]

dont forget the drone seaplane

[mighty shoal]

Decurion (`leggat`)

Armored Assault Tank

Faction: Legion
Health: 2'550 hp
Cost: 300 M / 3'000 E / 4'800 B
Speed: 45 / 18 accel / 49° per sec turning
Vision: 400 / 600 (air)

Weapons

Rapid-fire Machine Gun
DPS: 180 (6x burst, 12 dmg, 0.40s reload)
Range: 361 (16 splash)
Can hit: Air, Boats, Ground

Model by: Protar | generated in 1ms | updated every 4 hours

[vast frost]

hm

heavy drone has marginally less hp than decurions

[untold crane]

Drone seaplane is very weak.

[vast frost]

its a flare dispenser

[untold crane]

That has no defenses and dies to the same things its loadout does

Especially if yiu are air its bad to build. It can be ok if you're not. 250m is way too expensive for the fig vs fig fight though.
And it isnt like its going to survive if enemy air does anything about it

[vast frost]

you send them with ur air

and they dispense the drones

enemy figs hopefully target the drones

[upper notch]

the legion destroyer is good bc of the heatray that 4 shot a destroyer. The drone merely provide the vision to do that

[shy galleon]

the drones do non-negilible dmg

[pliant rover]

https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=ef4a5e69995f39ee24bf800e72cd228e

dunno how much truth there is to this strat for sea, but that gatling lockdown was brutal lol

[karmic stump]

u use drone carrier sea air for los

and triggering bonus flanking dmg

[untold crane]

.... so just like every other drone carrier. Again, the issue isn't that it's a drone carrier. It's that it is expensive, fragile, and weak to all the things the drones themselves are. Making a flying Mantis with 1/3 the loadout isn't great in general. You can use them vs vulnerable opponents you've outscaled anyway, but you can do that with any other seaplane (or other unit) too

[shy galleon]

legion satyr has noticeably worse projectile speed than thugs

220 vs thug's 286

the more you know

I always thought something was off on them despite their stats vs cost being very good

[jade latch]

they get a little more predictboost as compensation but it means they're very easy to dodge as well

[untold crane]

thugs can kinda dodge their shots by stutter microing to make them aim wrong

[upper notch]

Satyr got more shots per salvo due to having more units tho. If you set target to manually aim, it's pretty decent

[untold crane]

It has the same damage(burst) per metal as a thug would. But not RoF. And manual targetting while microing 30 units to dodge efficiently is a lot of apm. not impossible for the best, but not something an average player will do effectively

[upper notch]

It's not that hard tho... You just set target a straight line across the enemy formation

[spice loom]

If you fight vs thug you need to fucus fire individual thugs or they just get healed back up by every good thug player

[upper notch]

focus fire is good at bursting down single target to prevent healing, but is also higher risk of missing all the shots, especially if the targetted is a thug on the edge of their formation. It will also be overkilled if you already have more than enough to oneshot a thug. Use whichever method best suited for situation

[shy galleon]

is infestor useless because its dmg is trash or is it just webber version 2

you pay 50 more metal for more hp, less speed, and ability to repair(!)

and a laser instead of emp laser

the slower speed sucks but i guess purely being a webber (tankier reclaim bot) it's not bad

it lacks advantage over cons in not being faster than vehicle cons tho

[gilded owl]

I use it as a t2 repair/reclaim bot. Since I only have to build 1, I can eat the t2 lab for t3 and still have ample reclaim bots

[errant sparrow]

It is just a repair-bot that does not die to artillery. But that happens to be very useful.

It's like the Fortifier, but unit.

[gilded owl]

Oh yeah fortifier

I still don't think I can attack command it

[karmic stump]

Can't queue it as u can t2 mexes for t1 on top of t2 mexes too, it'll look to replace closest t1

[errant sparrow]

Mmk it's probably missing a custom param (or, worse, this is hardcoded behavior)

I'd expect that to be fixed

[gilded owl]

It's a Frankenstein unit so I don't expect much lol

Auto complete is killing me :/

[karmic stump]

Yay.
Make them tedious to make not impossible so its alright, I don't have enough apms to back and forth every 30sec 😉 so skill issue

[gilded owl]

Tbf there's not alot of use cases for it

Either you make it at front, or you make it back at base

[shy galleon]

the fact that they have repair is a huge deal

probably the difference between them being bad and decent

[gilded owl]

It is lol

[shy galleon]

okay they have small hitboxes which mean high power density. 8-10 infestors repairing each other is actually pretty good antispam

the bp 30% nerf hurt them but its still okay

[gilded owl]

Bp hurt everything ):

[pliant rover]

Can they repair while shooting or nah?

[shy galleon]

yes

[pliant rover]

Also, i use them as repair units for phalanx.

Very comfy

[pliant rover]

Interesting

Early thugball 2.0??

[untold crane]

Infestor is a stealthy combat repair bot that can absorb a few losses and rebuild its squad if even one lives, even deep into enemy territory
Alternatively, you can use them as a decent anti-tick line if you finagle it rightly
Finally, you can use it to assist any proteus shenanigans you have going on. The ability to assist build means you can skip building nanos when quickly taking a captured hill/cliff into a fortified artillery point.

[untold crane]

If you skip hoplites when first going t2, you can make 6 infestors first, have them assist the lab automatically, spit out a stack of phalanxes, then shove a lane with w/e satyr/balista you still have and clear all t1 defenses if no one hleps whoever you're pushing. and you can reclaim everything for yourself to make a new army of just t2 stuff with also most of a fusion built, oftentimes

[shy galleon]

legion vehicle is just good early with strong alaris and helios can be good on open maps, or in tight maps where 1-2 decurion + lance/barrage dominate

maybe there's some middle ground or 2v1 scenario where they can't stop med tanks but yeah everyone can use mines + op t1 walls for that

seems like an intended weakness

compare to cor bots which is squeezed by lack of flexibility

[untold crane]

Issue is still that med tanks are just a combination of hp and damage and range that legion doesnt have a direct correlary unit for. But you're defensive options are the ideal ones

[shy galleon]

yeh med tank go brr

[untold crane]

I like the Legion is much more strategically thoughtful as a result though
you don't steamroll, you control tempo. Which plays very differently than the other two

[lusty radish]

so just win before medium tanks at 8-10 minute mark, or you're automatically behind

and you "control tempo" until medium tank with 76 speed out-tempo any of your units

I'd understand if helios could catch up to them for example

[untold crane]

You are not understanding

You have Omexes. Gain ground with fast unit production, and do as much damage as possible. Then, while your opponent is recovering, upgrade your safe mexes to Omexes

[karmic stump]

legion is not another mirror faction

thank god for that btw

[untold crane]

The only reason i play BAR atm

[karmic stump]

When you understand taht u dont play with your brain turned off game after game after game, you will gain a bit more understanding

legion units are truly a big bag of tricks

if u pull the wrong one untimely, u get caned

And vice versa

[untold crane]

The thing with legion, is that you are expected to lose ground. You don't actually take damage from that if you eco properly, however. And while you eco, you build a stronger army than the opp has to respond to. You don't do late t1 skirmishes. You do late t1 deathpush

[karmic stump]

if the oppo had the time to deathstack tanks u been doing smth wrong anyway

[lusty radish]

the brute deathpush reaches your main base before you're halfway there lmao

then comes back to flank your decurion deathpush

[karmic stump]

but dec are so slow. Why would u Deathpush with them

u grind away ur oppo with dec

if u kill good, but u dont capitalize on a dec ball

[lusty radish]

let's play sometime

I was looking for legion 1v1 players

[karmic stump]

ill introduce u to kark walking

big fun moment of gmaing

[lusty radish]

i'll be expecting a friend request at [APM]phosphophyllite

[untold crane]

Ideally, the flow of t1 phase from legion perspective is this:
3x mex into 80 E -> lab -> scouts
as veh you follow up with alaris immediately, then build cons and expand
When youve gotten to around 6 mexes, you start helios production. You can at this point also have a con in base making E. Helios beats early med tanks, before they stack. Especially with alaris flanking and drawing fire.
After you get to mid, you make a new army for backstabbing with and/or responding to backstabs with, via helios/alaris again, with wheelies scouting being very important to figuring out where the backstab is coming from
Then you build your second Estor and when that is fiilled, begin making Omexes and perhaps 1-2 Asolars for stability.
Once your home eco is stabilized, you go into decurion lance.

Notably, you can make barrages at the same moment you can build helios, so add 1-2 into your helios squads and manual fire them to deter brutes from going too hard into your own army

Also notably, at the moment you begin to upgrade your Omexes, you should be expecting to lose ground somewhere

[karmic stump]

ull be faster firing at me (same handle as my discord) ill prolly forget, have lots of things to do tomorrow, new job and al

[lusty radish]

what about bot start?

bots into vehicle is miserable

also u wanna play too?

[untold crane]

Bots into veh is very bad. You are consistently outranged, and out hp'd. So you answer this with truly ungodly satyr/goblin spam, and use the Phobos as your very short ranged thug-incissor hybrid. Kark/zagreus is your thugwalk, but you need satyr support.
And interestingly, Balistas actually counter med tanks quite well, since they're so hard to dodge. But Balistas are expensive, so your best option is still goblin spam for early map control and mex denial, then transition to very-massed satyrs. You get karks when you have your Omexes set up, but you can actually make 1 early one and have them walk with either your comm or a constructor as a very powerful escort
karks are still countered by just not being in their face though, so you only mass build them to prevent your opponent from doing exactly that

[lusty radish]

so the doctrine is "start vehicle"

basically what I always did

spam op alaris until u have helion

[untold crane]

depends. As Chronopolize has said, Goblins are op vs Cor bots atm. But if you're vs veh, you have to play a more creative game

tbh an early phobos squad isn't awful, but it does set your eco timings back about 8 seconds iirc, so a not insignificant opportunity cost. You just need to make sure you kill 1-2 mexes and some winds if you do go that

[lusty radish]

and if opponent starts vehicles, u are behind? no thanks

[untold crane]

AND ALWAYS SCOUT

[untold crane]

you are not behind for being bots vs veh. You just have to accept that you can't go head-to-head as easily. Which is exactly how arm bot and core bot vs veh works

[untold crane]

A not-insignificant point is this

[mighty shoal]

Satyr (`leglob`)

Light Plasma Bot

Faction: Legion
Health: 550 hp
Cost: 60 M / 400 E / 1'100 B
Speed: 51 / 117 accel / 208° per sec turning
Vision: 380 / 570 (air)

Weapons

Forwards Plasma Cannon
DPS: 30 (75 dmg, 2.50s reload)
Range: 400 (24 splash)
Can hit: Air, Boats, Ground

Vertical Plasma Cannon
DPS: 15 (75 dmg, 5.00s reload)
Range: 400 (48 splash)
Can hit: Boats, Ground

Model by: Tharsis | generated in 7ms | updated every 4 hours

Stout (`armstump`)

Medium Assault Tank

Faction: Armada
Health: 1'780 hp
Cost: 225 M / 2'000 E / 2'900 B
Speed: 76 / 39 accel / 56° per sec turning
Vision: 325 / 488 (air)

Weapons

Light g2g plasma cannon
DPS: 83 (97 dmg, 1.17s reload)
Range: 350 (48 splash)
Can hit: Air, Boats, Ground

Model by: Flaka | generated in 0ms | updated every 4 hours

Brute (`corraid`)

Medium Assault Tank

Faction: Cortex
Health: 1'970 hp
Cost: 235 M / 2'400 E / 3'310 B
Speed: 73 / 37 accel / 54° per sec turning
Vision: 325 / 488 (air)

Weapons

LightCannon
DPS: 83 (97 dmg, 1.17s reload)
Range: 350 (48 splash)
Can hit: Air, Boats, Ground

Model by: Mr Bob, Flaka | generated in 0ms | updated every 4 hours

[untold crane]

notice the range

now think about how plasma gets even more range with height advantages

/shrug

[lusty radish]

u give your nickname to play or no?

[untold crane]

i believe is .eeo

[lusty radish]

i'll gladly learn from your creative approach to brute spam

I guess chronopolize is the only one of three legion 1v1 strategy advisors to have any recorded 1v1 games with legion

and close to my os so I probably wanna play them the most

[untold crane]

I watch 1v1 * games more than play them. I do not have the apm to play 1v1 RTS much anymore. I got to low Diamond in SC2 as Zerg by exploiting map control and setting up surrounds with proficiency, not by being fast or optimal macro. And that was like 8 years ago

But i can demonstrate the idea, probably

[lusty radish]

sure, I'll message u when we're both online

[split kite]

I get decurion was nerfed... but have a complaint. Why do they get to jave wuch effective aa? I played a game where I smashed a side and the opponent counter all inner with decurion. I wasnt going to get enough units over in time, so I transitioned air and build like 20 shuriken and they got evaporate by like 7 decurion. The tank is slow, but it counters commanders, spam, assault tanks, and shuri. If 20 shuri encountered any other t1 assault or special tank, thats a clean and powerful solution to the problem.

[jovial kite]

Just tried it out, 7 decurions vs 20 shuri => 1 shuriken dies before they are all stunned near instantly. Equivalent amount of metal of incisors eats up the shurikens. Even the equivalent amount of thugs does better => 3 shurikens die

Decurion AA "exists", but it's really not good. They can kill 1 shuriken. 2 shurikens (100 metal) stun a decurion (300 metal) with one of the shurikens dying. 3 shurikens stun it before it does much

[errant sparrow]

Decurion AA is decently effective when you spread them out, at the moment, but it's no longer super strong. Shuris beat them at a crazy metal ratio

[untold crane]

Their aa was nerfed very hard recently. They used to be able to effectively kill bombers on their own. Now they do tickle damage to air, with is probably a good thing. Lances still exist, after all

[jovial kite]

It used to be absolutely insane, about 4 times as effective. This seems like a decent one. They can do something, but you really shouldn't rely on it

[gilded owl]

@rancid cargo you said something bout people haven't tried all the strats for legion sea, any chance you could elaborate on that pls

[untold crane]

Im also curious what other playstyle options there are.

[rancid cargo]

I want to see how the meta develops, but I will say that if you find options from your navy lab leading to a deadlock, experiment with the other water labs in combination. It's meant to be synergistic. As a more obvious example, some people over rely on torpedo frigates as they "counter everything"; drop a hovercraft lab and see how that works out for them.

[pliant rover]

Not sure how intentional it is, but ive noticed that legion works fantastically well in "fire and maneuver" tactics similar to such used by british and german troops

Also some hammer and anvil tactics, albeit i have yet to find the exact settup to do those

[rancid cargo]

The drones in particular allow you to get away with things you previously couldn't, but the tradeoff is the heatray does do less damage at maximum range. The beam duration also means dynamic battles don't deliver full dps, which can play out in interesting ways when the traditional navy micro meets legion destroyers. Although I think the heat ray frigate version had that interaction in a nicer form tbh.

[pliant rover]

Idk, i like legion naval. Very agressive from what i noticed

It lets me deny water mexes allot earlier and at lower risk than other navies

And it also has good tools to outmaneuver opponents

[rancid cargo]

The original version was even moreso, with the pontus. You had some very good options in the lower metal phase for harassment

[gilded owl]

@rich narwhal did you like me sniping your mexs instantly on the deeploria game?

[rich narwhal]

I think I got a few of your mexes as well. Having more options for early mex sniping helps out legion a lot, think its good for sea gameplay overall.

[gilded owl]

Will other factions get early torp options too?

[rich narwhal]

Its unlikely without a sea rework for arm/cor, and that isn't planned for the near future. It also helps with legion's balance, since having easy raiding/anti-sub is important to get early value and set up cheap defensive options to make up for its T0.5 mexes or buy time for its T1.5s.

[untold crane]

I do love that i can get a full sub out in less than 1 minute on most maps, that's just silly levels of denial. If I were actually good at micro I'd probably even keep my sub alive like a protoss oracle, constantly poking for weaknesses

[gilded owl]

I am of the opinion that legion already has too much of a advantage in the beginning. The 0.5 mexs produce energy which eliminates upkeep and alows you to use that metal almost right away. The difference really only becomes apparent in the mid t1 fight where the metal differences come out. You only need to destroy 1 mex for legion to be on an equal footing with their mexs on most maps.

[rich narwhal]

If you are up against a good arm/cor player who is putting constant pressure on you then it is difficult to find the time and get the metal needed to set up your E production for the higher E cost units and to start upgrading mexes, and once you do you have to survive long enough to make up the ~1000m deficit. While this is true one land as well, land has better defensive options that makes it easier to hold out. Destroying a few mexes from raids helps to equalize the early-mid T1 phase, but its hard to get enough value to pay for the mid-late T1 transition.

[untold crane]

keep in mind legion needs 5 mexes per arm/cor 4 to keep up. idk about 'most maps', but the few 'open' sea maps ive seen you get far more than just 5 mexes per player

[gilded owl]

Usually what i have found is by getting ships out faster, 9/10 I'm able to win the first engagement which funds my tidals necessary to produce a single destroyer

[gilded owl]

Most water lanes/maps have 6-7 mexs (1-2 contested)

So usually only ~5 safe ones

[untold crane]

So legion needs 1 mex advantage to still fall behind. I don't see where math isn't mathing

[gilded owl]

You take one the other people's mexs away

Super easy to do with legion against arm or cor

[untold crane]

right... but you can't keep that mex dead. You just kill it repeatedly early, no? once arm/cor stabilize with their navy setup they should be able to push legion back past mid most of the time, right?

Or is this a matter of snowballing more than stability?

[gilded owl]

You can keep it dead just by being over it

[untold crane]

..? so arm and core cant build frigates to defend their mexes?

[gilded owl]

Go back and read from the beginning

[untold crane]

They cant defend the first boat or two. They have the reinforce advantage though, and can get their own frigates and even a destroyer massed up to defend whichever mexes are being contested well enough to push torp frigates off without much issue . You literally did that exact thing to me in one of our battles. At most that delayed you by like 20 seconds of income compared to me, and with your mexes being not legion you caught up quite quickly

[gilded owl]

Huh?

[untold crane]

I'm tired, but lemme explain.
legion contest mex with frig or sub. Not legion builds either sub or frigates at their base that is not across the map from the mex they're trying to take. 1 plasma frigate outfights 1 torp frigate with comm support, if that's nearby, and if it isnt, then you can have 2 frigates fighting the one contesting your mex before the second legion frigate can arrive

if is sub you can have a full destroyer and a frigate by the time legion would have 2 frigates + sub there, assuming distances similar to uhh... The oddball map that has a big open ocean in the center, a bunch of islands at the sides, and mountains in the corners. idr the name

[gilded owl]

I think your making it more complicated than it needs to be

[untold crane]

I'm making it complicated because you're dumbing it down stupidly

your words don't take into account the complexity of the situation you're describing

[gilded owl]

Legion has early game advantage -> able to contest further in the lane

Literally that simple

[untold crane]

k. im done arguing about that. ive talked to death about it. you're set in your ways, w/e

[gilded owl]

Bruh

Not everything requires a 2000 word essay

[untold crane]

cor op. better frigates at fighting frigates.

[gilded owl]

Legion gets more ships out faster cause less need to make tidals

[untold crane]

except it needs to make more tidals to power its Omex production. So it only gets the early army out faster. That army itself doesnt magically get larger than arm or cor for it. The income advantage by min 3 is fully in favor of not-legion

assuming parity

[gilded owl]

When did I say anything about Omex?

[untold crane]

this is why im done talking about it. It's not a conversation worth having anymore. do you

[gilded owl]

Bro

You gotta read the convo me and zecrus were talking about

[rancid cargo]

Basically power curve for arm and core is an even slope, legion its an S bend that can be higher at the end, depending how deep you make the first dip via econ investment. Exactly how much that is worth doing depends on map, opponent, and actual mex values. Mex values may vary too much for balance currently, it's as a debatable area, we don't really want "not a legion map" in the way we had via winds.

[rancid cargo]

Initially yes, but then arm and core catch up and exceed. IF you hold enough ground with the lighter units for long enough, you might still turn out on top, hence the aggressive openings people usually go for

[hardy spade]

The T2 AMF mex with the conturret seems 2 be not always working. Is there a limit or other restrictions?

[quasi relic]

Rosetta mid. Legion spot.

[upper notch]

The problem is when the S bend and the even slope are on the same team and use the best of both worlds

(Legion on Rosetta)

[untold crane]

Indeed. But thats realistically more of a map problem than a legion one. 10.0 mexes were op before. Its just worse now that Omexes are a thing

[rancid cargo]

Broken map issue. Rosetta is extreme outlier and not that useful for balance reasons.

[rancid cargo]

Teams and contrading does weird things but is nothing new, it adds another layer to the game. On rosetta it is extreme, but that is map specific and effectively what you sign up for by playing it.

[neat jay]

Hi, I'm curious, is there ever a reason to built the overcharged mexes? Does it give a boost to the t2 mexes?
I've been wondering about it and I just can't seem to get them in especially for the cost and time but then the basic mexes give so little metal compared to the armada/cort.

[errant sparrow]

On maps with enough energy, an optimized Legion build order is almost certainly to build a few overcharged mexes.

That might only be one to three of them, but in basically any case that it's affordable, it's also beneficial to do. The exceptions are when resources are so abundant that it's even easier to get to T2.

You'll recover the metal cost (but not the energy cost) of the omex when upgrading it to T2.

[neat jay]

it's jsut on supreme or glitter I ususally get t2 so early that it doesn't seem that resoanble for it.

[neat jay]

really?

[errant sparrow]

Yeah. If you're in any of the priority positions to get a T2, it's probably better to pay your techer for T2.

[neat jay]

does overcharged mex cost reduces the t2 mex cost?

[errant sparrow]

But if you're front in Isthmus then the calculus swings the other way, a lot of the time, and three omexes can be strong.

[errant sparrow]

No, it doesn't reduce it. You just reclaim the mex underneath when the upgrade completes.

[neat jay]

Oh, I had no idea. It reclaims 100% metal correct?

[neat jay]

I see.

I'll keep it in mind ty.

Though I still get t2 so early in my games xD

[untold crane]

you can probably get 1 for a greedy build if you're not techer. as air, for example, having 3 Omex is just winning as soon as you get t2 (lots of bonus metal income plus the extra 750 from upgrading

[neat jay]

Yeah I built them when playing air or other position with limited mex capacity.

[neat jay]

750? Isn't the upgrade worth 500 metal per omex?

[untold crane]

Is also good as a rush thing when you are on a map that has some super mexes in the spawns. like the doughnut map in space.

[untold crane]

is ~ 250m per Omex I believe. They're also 7k? energy though, so you need a full E storage to build 1

But you don't need more E than that if you're just building 1

[neat jay]

I wonder if the costs will remain at the release.

Oh yeah, it's 250m, I misread it.

:0 TY.

[neat jay]

One more question if you don't mind. On Supreme as air, is it better to drop a sea plane into the pond and play those or regular air, or both perhaps?

I just checked them and they seem to be a bit better although more pricy. At least there's a bomber which doesn't kill itself.

[untold crane]

legion sea fighters and gunships are quite good. the figs are better than arm/core t1 figs just in general, and use missiles. but you'll want to open with blindfold and some fig/transport on t1 anyway.

But. Legion anti-ground gunship is just a flying phalanx. Which makes it very good vs duck/plat/hover/amphib raids if those ever come out. And I think should come out at about the time the amphib would be reaching you if rushed, so there's that.

[neat jay]

What do you mean by opeining with blindfold?

[untold crane]

T1 air lab. Is juno, but bomber

[neat jay]

"Is juno, but bomber"? I'm losing something I guess, what does this mean pleas? 😄

[neat jay]

By the anti-ground gunship as a phalanx, are you talking about the sea plane or the regular t1 anti ground?

[untold crane]

Very new i see. It drops a bomb that instakills scouts and radar/jammer

Juno does this too, but as a tactical missile silo

[neat jay]

Oh you mean the juno bomber. I see.

[untold crane]

Phalanx is a t2 anti-blob bot. The seaplane gunship has the same weapon

[neat jay]

So you area saying the legion t1 air has good juno bomber. I see. I've never built that one yet since people usually spam in my games the bots i can't kill with it.

[untold crane]

Having 1 is very good

[neat jay]

Ok, so the best would be to open with t1 air, get couple fighters and fulfill some orders from the other players, and then move to sea planes to have more options.

[untold crane]

Yes

[neat jay]

I like the legion air, it looks pretty nice, I'm just not sure how to feel about those suicide bombers in the t1 lab. Since my enemies on the front line or sea can reuse their bombers.

[neat jay]

Ty. 🙂

[neat jay]

yep, been playing for a week now ;0

[untold crane]

martyrs are best used vs thing that dont move. handy to pair with mosquitos and killing aa turrets with. or getting a good hit on some winds

[neat jay]

Well, I'll try to combine the t1 with the seaplane bombers if there's water around me on a map. Thanks for the tips :-).

[jovial kite]

The t1.5 mex is great on high metal spots (10 m/s on rosetta for example), and also as an alternative to energy converters. You need about 400 energy per second to go t2 and not stall. And you need to do something with that income in between. Building 1-2 T1.5 mexes is great for that

[neat jay]

Oh I see, I often get the converters early so I haven't even thought about it but I also built a lot of energy so it never really was an issue. Interesting.

I can understand the 10 m/s turning to 20 yeah that's nice.

I have another question, how do you deal with t1 artillery? Since both arm and cor have much longer range and can shoot over obstacles.

If there are units/static defs between you and the enemy arti I don't know what to do.

[jovial kite]

The static one? Don't let them build it. It's 1300 metal, that's a lot of units that they are not having. Likely you can just run over them while they build it. Once it's there, it's either quickly kill it, pull back and fight outside it's range, go towards your neighbours lane (1300 metal doesn't move), or wait for t2.

[errant sparrow]

Yeah ideally you can pressure it. But probably not, so you just go around. Legion units are cheap early on, and a Gauntlet is hilariously expensive for what you get. You can usually just walk toward one.

[neat jay]

No, I mean mobile arti.

The static one that's if they build it I have to go back I get that.

But the mobile one that's annoying since it keeps moving. :0

And nothing on my side has anywhere near its range.

[errant sparrow]

Those generally aren't very strong right now, at least vs. unit compositions. You should be able to fight into them.

[neat jay]

Hm, I could understand in a 1v1 but in 8v8 with support from others it's difficult to get anywhere near them. Especially with all the static defs on chokes.

[errant sparrow]

Legion is not really built for 8v8 trench warfare tbh

Their answer to everything is "more pressure, earlier"

You can do the forbidden composition, Barrage + Decurion, and ask for a couple of rez bots from an ally (bribe with dollars)

[neat jay]

hehe dollars are strong even in bar? 😄

[neat jay]

They have a really shortish ranges on everything in legion so that makes these trenches tricky yeah.

[jovial kite]

Same one as before. Rush into them. They do not like straight up fights. They can have a few up to slowly whittle down your defenses, but otherwise as long as you keep your army moving they should not do much

[neat jay]

Yeah, but I still find that tough since once they get help they entrench pretty hard and then pushing against isn't much of a thing unfortunately. :0
But thanks, I guess with legion it's to go forward or pray :D.

[karmic stump]

yep leg is very aggro and tempo dependant

[untold crane]

An answer you can use how you like:
Legion gauntlet costs like 400 metal less than the arm/core one, though it does less damage

[neat jay]

I see.

I do built them but had no idea about the cost diff :0

[untold crane]

They're also weaker to match, so its not unjustified

But they outrange arty veh, so you can pursuade them to desist their shenanigans

[karmic stump]

less range too

you really dont want to match arm/cor for arty porc

[neat jay]

Ok, here I'm with one more thing. I've recently played sea couple times on supreme. Everyone keeps saying the legion sea is over powered but I don't get it. Armada ships just wreck mine at any opportunity.
I try to micro and keep the ships at range and avoiding enemy fire but the other ships are so good.

I check their destroyed vs the laser destroyer and armada ship has a better range, ton more damage, more health, more speed. And the cost isn't really that dramatically higher (you would have to buy like 10 Syracusias for the difference to be like one ship. On top of that you need a ton of energy to keep the ship lasers working which increases the costs quite a bit too.

The drones are pretty easy to counter with couple missile ships which still shoot at your ships too. The rockets/bullets seem to be a faster way to deal damage too, technically you can dodge but that's not realistic with these big ships.

How do you fight the sea?

Since my ships are so much slower every armada player just clicks behind my ships and outruns me so I can't stay at a distance.

Plus from the legion dev channel it seems drones overall are getting some nerfs.

I'm lost at how to approach this, please? 😄

[untold crane]

I assume subs and corvettes are important here for map control, with your torpedo frigates supporting later. And then I imagine you shift more into DD production as your control of the map tightens. But if you're playing on SI, legion sea is strong bc of its versatility, rather than 'stats'. Also, torp frigates can be target fired when theyre not in range of units, and their torps will continue for a while, greatly extending their effective range with proper micro

But, longj is a better navy player than I

@gilded owl

[gilded owl]

Yo

[neat jay]

But how can you control the map when the enemy is the one who is faster than you, plus with more damage and range?

[gilded owl]

They arnt that much faster

[neat jay]

it's like ten points or isn';t it?

and faster plus range makes them unable for oyu to catch

[gilded owl]

They don't have more range tho

The legion frigates trade well into arm and cor ones

[neat jay]

I just watched a match and the leg shipps had less range.

[gilded owl]

The leg destroyer is a beast

[neat jay]

we talking t right now, correct?

t1*

[gilded owl]

Yes, sea is won in t1

Legion is almost perfectly suited for isthmus cove gameplay

As long as you don't fight in the cove

[neat jay]

I need to run for a bit but I'll be back later :0.

[neat jay]

Ok so, the Syracusia has 58 speed while the armada Ellysaw has 81 and Corsair has 67. That's a lot of a difference. The damage diff is pretty big too and the heat ray range is slightly shorter than the destroyer from arm.

[errant sparrow]

This is a bit of a special trick, though, yeah?

[pliant rover]

Legion as a whole relies allot on tempo. The goal is to apply pressure to reduce legions tempo. So for say geo sea, that would be a very defended entry into units that can gain tempo if unchecked.

I personally primarily play beavh sea as legion, and the times i get countered its usually someone getting tempo thru unit quality advantage.

Sniping island is also vital

If you keep sniping their drones, you can relatively easily win on metal

[untold crane]

the confused person is trying to figure out how to play AS legion, not against it

[gilded owl]

Any map that requires you to fight around land puts legion at a huge disadvantage

[untold crane]

If only they had t1 scyllas =/
jk

[neat jay]

yeah exactly.

As arm you just use the speed, brust damage and range if needed.

You can't outrun arm as legion, but you also can't catch arm ships.

God forbid the wind goes down and your heatray doesn't work.

[untold crane]

This is where the DD being a heatray is helpful. You outtrade that style of play over time. You do need repair though. And as legion, while ya wind is good, you need an E store and should be mostly scaling on tidals

[neat jay]

What do you mean by dd pls?

[untold crane]

destroyer

[neat jay]

I see, in that case.

[neat jay]

The trades go based off of the enemy not you, so they outtrade you.

The enemy decides when the engagement happens since they are that much faster. If they don't want to fight they just don't and you don't have a way to get them.

Yout heat ray is never going to touch anything unless the arm player allows you to.

[untold crane]

They decide 'when' to trade. hrm, maybe i'll need to describe it like this
Legion gets units out faster. Those units are cheaper, and somewhat weaker, but they get out 'faster'. That's important. That means you can pin enemies in their bases longer. That denies them the mexes to expand. That denies them the ability to get enough units out that you get outtraded

if you are turtling as legion, you are incorrect.

[neat jay]

How do you get the destroyer out faster that it actually matters though?

The difference in build is relatively small and the moment you both have it the arm destroyed decides when the egagement happens.

even if you build slightly fater the enemy still builds their ship on the other side of the map, they will have it out before you even reach their base so they will be free to roam.

I literally grabbed arm ships and just clicked away and the leg ships couldn't keep up. Which brings me to my issue when I play as legion.

😄

[untold crane]

I lack the experience or skill as sea to explain the nuanced answers you're looking for

Suffice to say that the majority of very high skill sea players consider legion very strong on sea usually

[neat jay]

Ok, the destroyers have the same range, I double checked now :D. But the remaining stats are in favour of the arm.

Right now I'm building from both leg an arm shipyards and the arm ship comes out faster too.

[neat jay]

I'd like to see that to figure it out.

😄

[untold crane]

This part I can answer. You don't seem to be factoring in the damage or the flanking activation caused by drones

[neat jay]

Yeah the time to build arm ship is about 10 secs faster that's a lot.

[untold crane]

Flanking damage can be up to 300%, I believe

[neat jay]

I'm accounting for drones, that's why I earlier mentioned that they are shut down by arm having couple anti air ships. But those also ship rockets at the ships too so they still add extra damage to the fleet.

When it comes to flanking, the faster ships in hands of a good player should be the ones shooting the enemy's flank.

That's in favour of arm ships then.

And as mentioned now above, arm can outproduce you with their destroyers and aren't dependant on having enough electricity which makes legion ships more expensive and will also extend their build duratio nsince you need to spend the resources on energy production too.

I feel like the good sea players should eventually gravitated towards beating legion on sea once the matches become more common.

Even the comparison of the lightest ships is heavily in arms favour, the arm ship has almost 3x more dps per cost with the leg ship having only 72% of the arm's hp.

With production times not being that different and again the arm ship has higher speed (quite a bit), damage too. Plus the arm ship has pin point precision while the leg ship has the gatling gun spread so it needs to get real close to use its full potential (which is still almost 3 times less) - which shouldn't happen since it's the slower ship.

I'm so confused why the leg ships are considered so strong now :D.

[neat jay]

Np, np, I'm just a noob anyway. But thanks discussing it with me! 😉

[pliant rover]

ohhhhh

well, idk for geo sea as i primarily plated it beach sea, but:

buy con from geo, replace ur legion mexes asap for metal.

[neat jay]

Arm frigates are also much better, less hp but more range and more speed, more dps, faster projectiles too, faster turn around speed of their cannons.

[pliant rover]

start 3 cons, 5 vetes, 2 frigs, destroyer, 2 rez, 2 dest, then adapt

take ur mexes very fast, as well as the one near front.

frigates agressively scout.

[neat jay]

Do you nto go for the boosted leg mexes?

[pliant rover]

not until later

3 overcharged mexes cost about the same as 1 destroyer

and i personally prefer having units to deny enemy expansion

rather than greeding too hard

[neat jay]

So you don't use the scout ships I guess?

[pliant rover]

the radar AA? nah

too expensive and slow

[neat jay]

nn, the scout ships.

[pliant rover]

buy scout from air for first scout, then the vetes

[neat jay]

light assaul corvette

[pliant rover]

ya

sec i can more or less send you what i do buildorder wise for beach sea

geo sea i havent fully worked thru yet

[neat jay]

I so far played the geo. It's so difficult to get out of there on sea :D.

at least for me.

[pliant rover]

against a good player, ya lol

[neat jay]

But I still think, no matter which angle you look at it, the legion has worse sea t1 at the least. Its' slower (slower to produce in case of destroyers), less damage, same or less range, ...
It's strange it's considered so strong to me :D.

[pliant rover]

this is how i open beach

[neat jay]

I'm a noob on noob lobbies. Even noobs are tough for me :D. The fact they have ships in my sea on the geo side before I even put down the shipyard is killing me so bad :D.

And then they put statics on the cliffs too! XD

[pliant rover]

this is what lab looks like on open

[neat jay]

oh so you do build the light ships too

[pliant rover]

con 1

con 2

[neat jay]

You don't take the closest mex first?

[pliant rover]

maxing sonar range to avoid sub leaks

[pliant rover]

i could but then the last one comes late. and i also want to pop a radar in that particular spot to avoid 1: sub flanks 2: transport drops

[neat jay]

But starting with the closest mex is faster than with the farther ones.

[pliant rover]

is it?

im prt sure the diagonal going back is quite far

[neat jay]

Yeah but the three mexes make a triangle so your two arms of the triangle together are longer than the longest base there.

[pliant rover]

good to know, thanks

[neat jay]

I'd say the fastest would be the mid mex, then bottom, then up so you are ready to build the defenses.

[pliant rover]

these winds are to pay air. can be 2 if u want small trans, optional rly

[pliant rover]

radar at bottom mex important to avoid getting dunked on by transport gamers

[neat jay]

Yep, I pay the air. too, though I do keep my production on the ground to avoid the enemy hitting me on water when I don't expect it :D.

[neat jay]

I'm not worried about that, in my last sea match my enemy literally reclaimed my port without me noticing so a little raid is not even that high on my list of things to watch out for xD.

Those little subs are so fast that when I beat his fleet he reclaimed my destroyers before I could run away with them, aagghhh..

[pliant rover]

this is what i do with the con i buy

[neat jay]

Oh I see, you don't build a lab so you are that much faster on the water.

Geo starts on land for sure from what I found.

[pliant rover]

i also start walking my com towards them. if i need repair on cave, i put it there, if i need island, i go there

situacional

3rd con assist lab btw

with the scout you buy, you scout these areas. i dont remember the unit id for it so just visualise it

[neat jay]

kk, I build a con turret with my commander to push the production before leaving.

[pliant rover]

ye not nessesary at start. 2 cons is plenty

you wont have that much metal to spend

so with the corvetes, im basically just poking the entry points. if i see a coastal torp launcher, i run

the vetes are good for early agro, but theyre quite fragile

after 5, im going into frigates

my goal:

get some good dps out, get it out fast, deny the water mexes from geo sea

and also counter potential submersible open

which ppl tend to go against the corvetes

lets say i hit here. the corvetes wont kill a lab thats boosted by 3 con turrets. but it will draw pressure quite well. now its just micro really.

situacionally add energy if you run low

this is my fleet at 4:30. destroyer still building

this is my eco

[neat jay]

Hm. I really need to figure the geo side of this out :D.

[pliant rover]

for later: focus on having good energy storage capacity to use destroyers, focus fire them on enemy destroyers.

dont spam frigates

[neat jay]

Yeah I learnt that the hard way 😄

[pliant rover]

and try to play in a Hammer and Anvil style

[neat jay]

They suck at numbers.

[pliant rover]

where basically

you bait in enemies with your destroyers

then try to hit them from a flank

drones will trigger flank damage in the early stages

so it works quite well

this is the positions. com is close enough to test the durability of the flank

hes also close enough to repair if you need that

thats about as much advice i can give you. the rest is just reactionary really

[neat jay]

Thanks, I'll be trying it more, getting used to it.

My issue is more of a how to get out of the geo side, especially watching your set up. :0

[pliant rover]

torpedo turret on the coast repaired by 3 con turrets.

makes space for a lab

then generally you want a way to deal damage to me as i have position advantage to snipe the mexes

these primarily just punish greed and carelessness. theyre not going to outright delete you unless you play absolutely carelessly

ALSO

one thing allot of people dont think about when it coems to legion

the basic mex makes energy

which means

you need to make less energy production

allot of ppl overbuild energy which is why they end up losing on metal

[neat jay]

But it also makes a lot less metal ;).

[pliant rover]

what you lose in metal you gain in tempo 🤷

instead of spending 150-250 metal on energy production you get a extra unit early

[neat jay]

I had that but they sniped it out of existence. I'll work on my entry to get on the water 🙂

[neat jay]

Hm, but then if the enemy breaks out they have a pretty big advantage over you unless you get the overcharged mexes or get a con2 before them.

[pliant rover]

you lose if you let them scale for free

legion is one of those factions that thrives on smart agression

if you give up your tempo, you lose

[untold crane]

I can help with getting geo sea set up.
do your normal mexes and starting E production. If your air doesn't respond to a req for transport, go vehicle, and first build amphib con, then 2 regular cons. Amphib con goes straight to the island and claims mexes there. Your comm should stay in start base long enough to help boost it out, then move to cap mexes on the way to island.
Your first con helps boost the second, then both head to cove. Build a con turret, then a torp turret, then another con turret back far enough that it can't be sniped by frigs. next, if you place correctly, you can set up sealab from the cliff.
Your comm should be near the top of the ramp by the time your cons move towards bay. Your amphib should have already finished 1 mex and be working on another.

This isn't really an optimal opening, but it's one that works vs beach sea that does nt get a transport

[neat jay]

I see so the torpedo and the port near the cliff ramp correct?

[untold crane]

The important thing to understand about cove sea is that you're not going to get to water before beach sea anyway, so you might as well build up as sturdy as possible before they can dislodge your attempt to get in entirely

[neat jay]

yeah, they justy bully me, they know I'm weak! ;D

TY, I'll try to add these tips from you guys.

[fervent halo]

``s

[errant sparrow]

We appreciate everyone who takes the time to fill out the Legion Gameplay/Balance Survey, if and when you can. The initial set of responses had some surprises for me, at least.

"The purpose of this survey is to identify what players think of the current state of Legion and determine what changes should be made during the final round of changes now that the unit roster and all of the unit models are complete. Questions can be skipped if you have no opinion on them."

[shy galleon]

goblin is a tough one

From what I hear it's quite unpopular in high level 1v1, because the goblin absolutely destroys grunts, while being weak vs blitz that can catch up to it

From some test games I played it pretty decent vs pawn, not bad vs ticks if you are careful but can't catch up to them. They are quite bad into llt and commanders

it's a polarizing unit

[errant sparrow]

You'd mentioned (a long time ago) that they were inconsistent into Pawns, and I think we do know the cause for that, now, in the engine. Whether the unit is just pushed back or "skids" back has an odd condition that is hard to meet consistently in that matchup. I think we might have a smoother experience in 6+ months when we (1) solve that issue and (2) move to that version.

[shy galleon]

i probably would remove the impulse unless there is a way to make it super consistent. I don't see how the impulse is neccesary to the goblin's role

having your chasing pawn get frozen when you expect it to catch the goblin is pretty tilting. there's also no indication to the player of when a unit is going to get cc'd by the machine gun

[errant sparrow]

I would look like a crazy person explaining the exact chain of events needed to cause the skid lol. But enough Goblin + not enough Pawn = skid always.

[shy galleon]

consistency with machine guns doesn't make sense because the goblin is a piece of paper, it shouldn't cc units like decurion machine gun

unless you can show that there's a need for and benefit game design wise

[errant sparrow]

Eh I can do it in unit design terms. The Goblin is designed around later interactions that are meant to force the unit to fall off except for vision support. It lacks the DPS and speed of other spam, mainly, and its zoning is strong only for a few minutes. It is intended to push both the Legion player and their opponent to switch to more expensive, higher quality units, and to enforce unit progression in general across the match. So, while the status quo is that you can always switch back to T1 spam, with Legion that is only sometimes the case.

So we make up for that weak DPS with impulse.

But it is a fragile relationship. When the Pawn and Grunt change their mass, the Goblin's effectiveness against them changes. We will be finely tuning it indefinitely. Which is okay when it is well tuned but my position is that it currently cannot be due to the skid chance, which also impacts Grunt (just more terribly + consistently).

It's a nice puzzle box if for some reason you enjoy trying to balance things. But as a player and especially at high-level play I think we are just twiddling our thumbs until it can be done properly.

[shy galleon]

theoritically range+kiting already is enough to make it dominate vs infantry

why do you need impulse to make it even more dominant

[errant sparrow]

With higher impulse, you can reduce the range, so it kites fewer units. But it does concentrate the effect on the units that it does kite, as a result.

[shy galleon]

if anything the decurion slowing units down that it shoots makes more sense

[errant sparrow]

Yeah.

[shy galleon]

as it's a mobile heavy tank. otherwise fast units can run by it with impunity

[shy galleon]

mid tier t1 units have about 300+ range

goblin is 261 range, other light t1 is 180-230

30-50 range is all the kiting range you'll need, and they still are a good margin below medium t1 units

on another note, if arm cent gets reworked to be better vs grunts w/o com support, maybe they'll be able to buff grunt

[errant sparrow]

I think I do see impulse as a way of reducing range, damage, speed, and fire rate. With those stats low enough, its ceiling for kiting is pretty low. And if we can fix the engine skid, then Grunts and Pawns can be pushed around via impulse without the micro-stun, which resets their acceleration and keeps them from moving for a couple of simulation frames. That's the part that is way too strong on the Goblin, and makes it look like it packs an enormous punch, when really it is barely shoving things around.

[shy galleon]

so if a pawn is moving forward and it gets shot, it should appear to lose speed for a moment, but not stop?

[errant sparrow]

To avoid Goblins skidding you, try moving at maybe a 30 degree angle when advancing toward it.

I know that won't work out entirely against line formations but it should reduce the skid by a lot, from what I am looking at.

[shy galleon]

well I don't have problem with slows, as long as it's predicatable

generally slows punish the already slow unit like grunt tho

a blitz will barrel in much faster with less time to be slowed

maybe this is just a case of mapmakers/players need to incorporate more terrain into maps, even subtle hills that screw with vehicles

[errant sparrow]

I think we've seen some improvements in that area, too, like Proving Grounds has some terrain textures that's just broken-up looking, and it's effectively rough terrain for vehicles. That was very cool and probably people visually recognize it without fully noticing the technical background behind it.

I didn't check out the new dig site but hopefully it's similar.

[shy galleon]

ah, need to check out dig site

ark valley the goat has small features that are enough to make vehicle vs bot interesting

[untold crane]

Dig site is such an interesting map actually, its got so many different things going on. If this could be extended to 8v8 it might become my new favorite map ^^

[still ledge]

real

[split kite]

Thug op on this map.

[untold crane]

I can imagine. plus plasma on any highground, of which there are many, is also just way better on this map. so many little hills and movement cripplers for vehicles too, so the mobility advantage of bots is more meaningful

[errant sparrow]

It looks like I can set a unit to be skidding, but not clear it, with SetUnitPhysicalStateBit. So I am going to do some stupid hack to see if I can make Goblins non-skiddy while we wait on an engine change.

[errant sparrow]

nvm they're already looking at a whole redo of the ground move type reactions to impulse gg

[neat jay]

Mine bombers. Does anyone use them? They seem to be pretty close cost wise to the laser bombers so what's their purpose and what is the best way to use them? I haven't seen anyone build them ever so far so I have no idea how people use them :0.

[magic bramble]

In theory the mine bombers can function like the basic bombers of the other factions as well as function as area denial but I personally have never seen them used. I think people prefer the active dmg of the phoenix vs the passive play of the mines

[sonic cradle]

They're actually very good, just a bit over shadowed by the Phoenix.
They can place mines any whwre, places a mine layer can't even build om like sheer cliffs and stuff.
Per bomb volley they also do a lot more damage than the armada and cortex t2 bombers..
You can place lines on enemy buildings.
In their base
Rapid frontline mine field deployment.
You do still need to payfor the mines but they are nice

And btw, some people may mention bugs regarding the mines failing to place or not dealing full damage.
That's an old bug that was fixed.

The mines are so sure to place correctly that they can exist inside and or ontop of enemy structures.
Briefly before exploding for full damage

[safe sluice]

You use them as normal bombers, sometimes you have to manually self-D mines.

I never used them to "just" place mines, only to bomb-run faster than with phoenix which cost more

[errant sparrow]

Yeah this is just an issue of the Phoenix being good. The mine bomber is also good

[dusk talon]

you cant build command the mine bomber, right?

I remember it being too micro intensive and annoying to constantly retarget so that they dont overlap; the mine laying aspect might as well not exist for me

[errant sparrow]

Use an area attack

All air units can repeatedly target randomly within an area. So that is how you do it. It adds some scatter but that's more of a feature than a defect.

[sonic cradle]

Don't use area attack

Press a to select the attack command, and click and hold tight mouse then drag like you're doing a move command.
Manual control of the bombing line and spacing that's generally more flexible than generic area attack

[untold crane]

People don't look at the mine bomber at all afaik. I make at least 1 every game i go air though, so idk.

[untold crane]

depends on where your bombers are relative to the targets. But.... you can do a LOT with mine bombers with line attacks. No wasted damage, for example, even if bombs miss

[sonic cradle]

Funnily enough the line attack is good for Phoenix too. You can glass whole fuciing areas

[dusk talon]

line attack should be the standard when bombing.

everytime i see somone single target command their bombers and lose everything to a single flak shot I cringe

[dusk talon]

in the scenario where you have a single mine bomber, does this queue command different spots to lay mines? wouldn't that cause the mines to overlap and chain explode

or I guess you were referring to when you're bombing actual targets with multiple bombers? I was thinking about defensive placements.

[untold crane]

not really. Like, you CAN do that, but even mild spacing is enough for them to be out of each other's blast zones. I've killed dozens of small raids with mines placed in areas that were definitely too weak.

[sonic cradle]

it's not a queue.
iIt's literally the same thing as wehn you drag right click to form a line of units via basic movement command, but you press A to select the attack command first, so that you're setting a line of attack points down rather than move points.
So they go there and shoot their respective spots along the line you drew

Which cna be squiggly as hell and cover a circular, oval, rectangular whatever area.

[sonic cradle]

also you don't have to worry much about mine overlap.
they're going to place and explode for full damage either way.
there's really no limit to how many mines can sit in one spot when dropped from this unit.
granted when one or two explode, the rest will also probably explode at the same time as well, and with their limited AOE it's best to spread things out unles you're dumping a bunch on a single building.

[dusk talon]

I definitely see they don't chain explode as much as I thought they would unless you pack 4+ drops at the same location and direction.

To clarify on the command thing, what I was wanting was behavior similar to move drawing for 1 unit, or if you held issuing a rally point for a single lab. I believe what you're describing is for the multi-selected unit behavior, and that would result in a bomber repeatedly attacking the same location with some variance due to the bomber approaching the point at a different angle/terrain.

For mine bombers it'd be ideal for me if I could just build one, and draw an attack line as if I were move commanding 1 unit. This would cause the bomber to attack once per point on the line. If it were possible to turn on the repeat command for it so that it'd keep looping through that line that'd even be better.

Granted this behavior may make mine bombers too efficient at trading against spam. I'd imagine there could be a scenario where legion would eventually stop making spam and build long range AA.

[untold crane]

You can use shift to queue up multiple attacks in a row, and therefore 'draw' mine laying. But its still subject to the weirdness of bombers trying to obey orders they physically can't if those attacks are too close together at a time, so you might have to shift queue pure movement orders to get it right

[pliant rover]

Istmus amphib defence

[neat jay]

Lol i see :D.

Aren't there better options for amphib defense though? 😄

[pliant rover]

Nothing nearly as instantanious at shutting down pushes

Well, besides stiletos

You drop a minefield and it buys you quite a bit of time to react

[untold crane]

Except vs marauder pushes. But even there they can kill a couple, which can be the difference between dead AFUs or not

[sonic cradle]

with enough mines you can stop behemoths.

also consider using 10 mine layers to put a mine field on your enemy's front lawn to fuck with them
or in their base if you're willing.
They then have to constantly worry about building on mines, or their con units hitting mines.
wasting their time even if you don't ahve any mines left.
it's funny

[pliant rover]

Could pop them on mexes to deny rebuilding

[untold crane]

... a behe in a minefield just shoots in a line in front of it though.... also, the mine aoe isnt large enough to more than slightly inconvenience building new things...

[agile rose]

I think just about the only time I've ever used them is when I'm trying to bomb enemies whom have heavy AA basically everywhere
Just because their munitions are mines which means that the damage doesn't instantly stop if the bomber gets shot down

[neat jay]

I see. When I'm air I want to build them since they seem cool but when I look at the price since they are so close to the phoenix I just prefer building the laser one straight ;0.

[dusk talon]

technically the mine bomber should be better for bombing, no? air is just a numbers game. you could have 1.5x more mine bombers 🤔

you could also, drop mines before you reach your intended target

[neat jay]

Yeah, you are correct, thanks! 🙂 I just realized I was looking at a wrong cost label. Yeah they are a bit more cheaper than the phoenix than I thought.

[untold crane]

Issue with this is that every mine drains eco. 10 mines isn't noticeable. 50 is.

[untold crane]

Phoenix is closer to nuke bomber than advanced bomber. Mine bomber is closer to advanced bomber

[neat jay]

I see.

I rate units from the personal perspective of, this is cool thus it's better ;).

[untold crane]

Many do. I rate on 'what does this thing do + what is the environment it exists in'. I play factions cuz theyre cool, but unit choice is based on function and utility and comparison

[agile rose]

Did someone fuck up the pathfinding of Javelins?

[errant sparrow]

Possible. What's going on with them

[agile rose]

Played an event game on Red River, and thus I used a shitton of Javelins to raid the enemy, but the Javelins were constantly getting stuck on both units and wrecks for much longer than they should have

[errant sparrow]

Do you remember which wrecks? Some of ours have stupidly-large collision volumes for zero reason

Zero reason except that they're invisible until you debug them*

[agile rose]

The wrecks ranged from other Javelin wrecks to random T1 spam
And for the record they were also having pathfinding issues when trying to walk past stuff like friendly turtles

[errant sparrow]

Mmk so something to look into overall. Will do.

They probably are oversized, because they have two weapons at wide positions. BAR has an issue with units clipping inside of one another and then being unable to fire. So sometimes they gotta be way too big.

That is my final diagnosis, I have zero time, Javelins are using an oversized footprint and it's cutting into their crowd mobility.

[strong coral]

how do people play t2 legion sea assuming its kinda even and enemy sea is also at t2

spam thalassa's? rush the combat flagship?

subs?

[untold crane]

I believe its cruiser>battleship, and you use the battleships as skirmishers vs enemy ships. But that's a very 'undetailed' response, so maybe cookiedude can answer if he bothers to check

[pliant rover]

Ya boy has discovered the naval jaguar

Its op

🙂

[untold crane]

arm lightning boat? yes, it's op. Same as the actual jaguar.

[gilded owl]

Whaaa

[untold crane]

do you not build cruisers before battleships?

[gilded owl]

Nah

[untold crane]

I have learned something new today

[gilded owl]

Rush out 2 battleships and kill your enemies battleship, then you can focus more on supporting. Legion battleships trade poorly against others but they are cheaper so use that advantage

[untold crane]

I guess you kinda just hide and avoid the fight until you get your second one out then?

[gilded owl]

You should get it out first so you should deal with their t1 fleet

Just dont go for the kill until you get your 2nd one out

[pliant rover]

Riot ship.

Aoe bonk gun

• aa

No more giganerd with their shurikens

And its only 500m

Which is like

2 frigates

[gilded owl]

Riot ship is kinda poop, their low range is a death sentence allowing frigs to trade almost evenly with them

[pliant rover]

Well you dont JUST run riot ships

I mix them with cruisers

[gilded owl]

Rip, that expensive

[pliant rover]

They work super well as a stopgap measure against air, and theyre usefull in taking on ppl who bunch theur ships up allot

[gilded owl]

Btw they have the same aa as a nettle basically

[untold crane]

I thought shotguns shoot air. Which gives them a tiny bit of flak ability, which is fine ve shuris that have 2 hp

[errant sparrow]

Yeah I don't like the riot ship so far

[agile rose]

Imo riot ship doesn't really have a purpose because the cruiser already does decently vs weak stuff because of its weapon

[gilded owl]

Give it like 30 range or so for it to be comparable with brimestone and maelstrom

[errant sparrow]

It could do really well with short range too if it had the stats for it

It's just kinda fine. It is an okay unit. And navy has a bunch of very good units

[errant sparrow]

LDM also falling prey to the randomness of current impulse:
https://youtu.be/r4rS9ii8GtE?t=11300

Which come to find out is almost entirely intentional (but not intentional) so making any changes will be slow.

I withheld an engine issue for my workaround-of-choice but might pursue that angle if other impulse changes don't make it through.

[shy galleon]

this kind of rng is triggering lel

same thing for decurion vs alaris

sometimes alaris get stunned sometimes not

[errant sparrow]

It's way more glaring on units that are meant to have the minimal impulse to push things

Because they still micro stun the target and it's way out of proportion to the effect

Will fix (eventually)

[upper notch]

Yeah. Micro stun just feels horrible to play as or with

[errant sparrow]

I don't see movement on the engine PRs for this so I will bump up a prototype for non-annoying low impulse

[upper notch]

I don't even know if low impulse/micro stun add that much to the game.

Pounder/Phalanx type of impulse are fun and (literally) impactful. These goblin type of impulse just feel... idk

[errant sparrow]

Pounder also randomly stuns things. It is very inconsistent vs destroyers.

But the size of the effect influences how we rationalize the outcome when we're watching. Pounder randomly stopping stuff feels "fine" for whatever reason.

But yeah. Like I said, into the prototyping phase for machine gun impulse.

Because Legion needed even more scripted weapons.

[untold crane]

The value of microstun is on the fact that most of legions consistent weapons are 'beamers that miss' or 'burst beamers that miss'. The value being that microstunning allows those units to actually kill things, since snails outrun decurions, goblins have the average kda of a noob vs pro CoD player, etc. Idk if that's BAR value, but imagine playing with those units and being unable to microstun, losing even more kill potential. And even if you buff the damage to compensate for the removal, at that point why not lasers?

[untold crane]

is bc big explosions moving things makes sense and small tickles stopping things doesnt.

[errant sparrow]

Yeah it is human-brain stuff but I want computer-brain to work better too

[still ledge]

buff the stun and make every bullet the goblin shoots cost 1 metal

trust

[untold crane]

It might be good to just get it to a point where its consistent from a high level standpoint. Like the corvette vs dolphins, where the corvette can stun dolphins, but only when dolphins aren't going near max speed.

[errant sparrow]

Doable

Oh my bad didn't reset the OBS screen fit

But yeah impulse can shove without skid. This has issues, pure prototype, etc etc

The engine code can/should improve but you can see where a unit barely-updating its position ends up jostling out of place because it's caught in a crowd. There is a lot of stuff to take care of before a "fix" like this is even decent quality.

[untold crane]

generally that seems 'fine'.

[errant sparrow]

The impulse is about double there so it's goofy but I have to test under goofy conditions to see if the code works

[untold crane]

I mean as long as they're not impulsing planes it's probably fine, but the mechanic of impulse itself being added so 'late' means you'd need to tweak every single unit's mass and accelleration to account for how impulse would affect it and how much you want that impulse to affect it

[errant sparrow]

That's mostly done. I would copy that effort over to the nu-impulse.

What else. I can improve some of the physicality, the direction, the alignment of forces, the post-shove collision outcomes. I may need to check for cliffs. I might need to immunize all-terrain units to the new shove-based impulse. That kind of thing. But the amount and strength of the push, we basically have that.

[shy galleon]

Been trying to find good legion veh comps on slight open maps and small teams

Lance isn't it in small teams. Its a could be a reactive counter to enemy skirmishers (janus, helios, whistler). It struggles against Satyr, and rocket bot and thug can just brute force with tempo and repair

Ideal case is where you build critical mass of lance while using 1 immortal decurion and llts to defend them

In most cases it's too much micro to keep lance firing and focus firing if it's not 1 static lane.

The current comp I have in mind is helios barrage

Barrage have good anti building dps, countering both llt and beamer, which ruin helios. And barrage flame is good vs slow bots in general which helios struggle to engage head on

[karmic stump]

Lance and most railguns units in legion only works when massing

[untold crane]

Assuming you can get to like 12 or so lances, they become unstoppable siege mass (vs t1, air) with anything in front. But normally I think you can make like 2-3 and have to stop there to mass Helios/alaris and just try to blitz-raid open spaces as much as possible

While opp is focused on your raids you make decurion/barrage and slowly build your main push army

[neat jay]

I have a question. How do I kill Behes as Legion?
I had an army of ASols attacking the enemy through the supreme middle, enemy had like 4 behes. I had 6 of my sols target one behe, it didn't die unlike my soon to be dead ASols. The only options in this case with ASols I can see is to sit at max range, but that takes forever, or try to run around if the map and enemy defenses allow it but that's not the most reliable.

I switched from ASols to air, but how do you actually beat it, please?

[errant sparrow]

40 stealth missile trucks, and about 80 seconds

There is just no good way to kill a Behemoth

With missile travel time, and staggered volleys, call it 100 seconds

[neat jay]

What a pain xD.

[errant sparrow]

But for the low, low price of 50% more than a Behemoth, you can kill many Behemoths

[shy galleon]

Deadulus, sols kiting ig

[errant sparrow]

You will be waiting a while on the Daedalus to be effective. A long while.

The good news is that you have plenty of tools to add flanking. The bad news is that you probably need them.

[upper notch]

no behemoth killing solution is better than commander or other behemoth

[neat jay]

I think other than a commander your best bet is quite a bunch of nuke bombers.

[untold crane]

If you have a strong t3 eco, you can make 5-7 Daedyluses and support them with myrmidons. The myrmidons only matter bc the drones cause flanking, but once you have enough of those drones you'll be blitzing through Behes.

But as the others said, behe just has too much hp per cost to be killed by other things for less or equal metal.

[marble jetty]

anybody got good legion BPs ideas?

[neat jay]

Turns out 20-25 prometheus solve the issue. It's not as expensive either :0.

[upper notch]

I don't think it counts as economically viable "counter" when half of your guy die to trade for a behemoth, while also costing not less than a behemoth

[untold crane]

Unfortunately I'd have to say that you could probably have done as well with a half-dozen dusas and goblin spam (with goblins flanking)

[errant sparrow]

Equivalent metal in Medusas is about 13, and they have 100 DPS apiece, which is abysmal nvm was remembering their anti-comm damage

You're looking at 2 to 3 minutes to kill, even with spam to add flanking

Nothing kills Behemoths

Let me refresh my memory

Yeah, 1200 damage (6 * 200) on a 12 second reload

Oh it's 200 only vs commanders nvm

Yeah this is probably the easiest composition to kill both the Behemoth and the spam that's sent ahead of it

Just, still, about a 2 minute kill, which is ridiculous

[upper notch]

Tbf. I think a behemoth 1v1 also take like longer than that and the only reason it's a viable defensive option against behemoth is because they bodyblock each other

[errant sparrow]

I am assuming you have pretty impeccable micro to keep firing the Medusa herd

And factoring in spam vs spam into the guesswork

But yeah the 1v1 time is longer. It looks like the true DPS value shown on the Behemoth just doesn't hold in that 1v1, though.

Their DGun probably gets multiple hits against one another, just eyeballing it, maybe 5ish frames of damage

So only about 15 seconds longer

[neat jay]

Actually only a couple of them die.

[neat jay]

I tested medusa, it's way worse than prometheus, plus the micro you need to keep them moving and firing is annoying ;).

Incinerators also work (obviously), but then you are watching a powerpoint presentation with a big very slow unit with lower range trying to catch small greater range units.

Plus incinerators is more expensive so it still makes the prometheus a pretty nice option - they build faster and cheaper and are cheaper to keep around considering the E cost to fire.

[untold crane]

I mean the prometheus does have crazy damage ig. hm

[neat jay]

It's ok yeah, but I think it goes a lot into the fact that it doesn't immediately die to the behe so it lasts while also providing all that damage killing it decently fast (at a decent resource rate compared to the other options above). 🙂

[untold crane]

My normal build has 3 mex->4wind/solar+2wind->Estor (skipped if went solar)->lab->boost con->cap mexes
Then comm does different stuff depending on map and lab makes 10 or so gobs into phobos (maybe a con boosted by comm first if still close and have E to shove)
this has phobos production finished usually by 3 min stage of game

[quaint tiger]

am here @untold crane but am also actually playing the vidyagame so limtied interaction

[untold crane]

what's your build order for a phobos timing attack assuming.... idk 12 wind and 1.9 mex starts?

[quaint tiger]

I dont really do set stuff like that

but depending on rezbot reclaim or not

com assist first con (then com walk) -> 5-10 goblins -> 2nd con -> 3-4 phobos

maybe skip the expansion con (1st con is lab assist) depending on gamestate

and thats all very flexible based on map size etc

bad engage/leaks can force more goblins before phobos

[untold crane]

fair

i do the opener every game bc captured E is super useful for legion. All their stuff costs a shitload of E comparatively

I pretty much always open with E store too if possible, cuz every game I don't i'll need to build basic solars instead, which is more expensive e coverage in the short term

[agile rose]

There's Epic Dragons but

[untold crane]

Oh this is a fair point actually. Tyrannus can kill behes. You do need quite a few of them though.

[marble badger]

Hey so my freinds were complaining about bastions being OP and tbh I may have to aggree. Three of them can kill basically any titan teir unit

[still ledge]

can't you kill them with catalyst or perdition

[shy galleon]

they are uniquely vunerable to t2 rockets

they don't have range of tachyons

maybe they are op compared to bulwark dunno

[still ledge]

oh yeah

isn't that kind of cutting it close to their range though

[untold crane]

you've got like 200-300 elmos of leeway. The only thing the Bastion has going for it over Pulsars is just height. They're actually better as antispam tools than as big-unit deleters, realistically. You can kill even vet Bastions with 9 t2 missile truck shots.
Idk if they're better or worse than Bulwark. It's having 3 different ranges for different guns is semi-problematic for it for sure though.

[quaint tiger]

even annihilator dies horribly to cost in merls, all 3 are just hard countered by starburst truck

[upper notch]

1 Vanguard or catapult or "lrpc on leg why the fuck does thing has so much range" Astreus is enough

[quaint tiger]

don't they all cost more than anni tho?

like Merl/Diplomat beats anni for smth like half the cost

[untold crane]

The value of the t3 solutions is that you build 1 and are done. Though with astreus you need like 3-4 to volley a Bastion down, so idk why you brought them up

[neat jay]

I tested the pulsars vs bastions and pulsars are vastly better. There's only a relatively small range when bastion is better, other than that it's only good at dealing with low tier stuff which is not an issue at this level considering how expensive it is.

[neat jay]

One bubble and it does nothing, plus the cost of them and time to build are not really very worth it compared to other t3 ;0.

[quaint tiger]

bastion is much more generally useful (much harder to flood), its generalist vs specialist

[untold crane]

Pulsars are t2.5 towers that are anti t3 and anti-siege.
Bastions are t2.5 towers that are anti t1 and anti t2. They also have enough hp to face tank t3 non-titan class, and probably kill at least one thing before dying.

They are just different roles. If you're doing a city builder impression, having a few pulsars in front of a couple Bastions is an absolutely disgusting combo of porc

[still ledge]

then catalyst/perdition or T2 missile truck

[quaint tiger]

Leg bots into Cent/Rocko: wat do?

feels like "lose"

[untold crane]

I think you can abuse goblin range early in the game to get more mexes, then you have to sac those mexes that get pushed, and turn every bit of the short term mex control into Omex eco that you can use to pump decu/lance/barrage. Or swap to amphib if possible and spit out a few tritons, but idk if that's feasible, and the amphib maps themselves aren't super common

[quaint tiger]

puddle gaming is a whole different proposition

and veh skirmish beat bot skirmish as a rule in bar

its actually harder for legion because lance limited firearc/inefficiency

it is more specifically wat do kark outclassed ballista outranged

maybe its just gitgud satyr unit control

[untold crane]

Right. That's the point, no? but yes, it's not easy, and decu still gets hammered.

[untold crane]

Maybe. I've not seen it work fast enough though. Especially with well microed laz support from the pusher

[quaint tiger]

satyr lower individual health pool makes attrition brutal

and like if they are cent/rocko you presume chokepoint/lanepush

so leveraging mobility of satyr is not a play

i think its just "lose"

[untold crane]

Kark isn't outclassed. It's not even the same unit role, is the issue. The cent is a beefcake that hits hard at range. the Kark is a mobile wall that stops pawn/grunt rushes. They're very different jobs and the fact that they have those different jobs means that legion literally just doesn't actually have a counterpoint

[quaint tiger]

what they both are

is a funnel for com repair vs incoming damage

in front of rocket line

and in that context cent is vastly superior to kark

[untold crane]

The kark technically has more hp, so it should technically be a better wall, but the issue is it does like 1/4 the damage of the cent at less range than the cent (outside of shotgun). The cent can contribute to the rocket war, while the kark literally cannot, while being less expensive and more mobile

[quaint tiger]

cent is much bigger threat to com and much better at facetanking llt with com support

[untold crane]

again, range is the issue. The cent has two lasers that both outrange the kark while moving faster

[quaint tiger]

i dont necessarily think the interaction is problematic, but i am searching for something i have missed in the scenario

[untold crane]

I hope you find it, cuz I haven't even been able to theorize a solution inside the botlab. the only answer I can see is 'dont let it happen', because you just dont have the tools..... ig its playable if you have hg advantage though, via satyrs. maybe room there>?

[shy galleon]

kark is tankier and has a bit of sustain

i'd say kark is easier to use because though it does less dmg it very easily kites com

[untold crane]

Kinda? It's definitely not impossible but the situation where your comm is getting run down by karks seems to me to simply be a case of having REALLY lost the matchup and not realizing it, cuz 330M shotgun bot with a laser pointer is not > 140 metal thug, let alone 270m cent with more poke dps and movespeed

[shy galleon]

kark shield makes up for it somewhat, kark can sort of kite cent, not that it matter

if the com is in range kark could hit enemy com while cent hits kark ig

anyways the heavy rocket is what's winning that mu

[untold crane]

but is outranged by the smaller rocko too, so is very eh. You just stall with this

You still lose ground, skill just determines how quickly

[still ledge]

oh legion amphib lab can make tritons?

[quaint tiger]

rocko outranges and is faster than ballista

like if micro is competent ballista just dies

[untold crane]

And telchine.

[slender coral]

What do the telchines even do

[untold crane]

Shoot ground, and shoot into water from ground, and walk under water, where they cannot shoot. So... weird things, mostly. They're good on shorelines and in puddles though. They walk faster when their feet are wet

[slender coral]

Oh so they’re good at the shallows then

Those land bridge areas where both sea and land can go

[untold crane]

https://discordapp.com/channels/549281623154229250/1164194636579995678/1502291844552196237

Watch this replay, keep an eye on Chrono. This is the first and only time I've seen Telchines actually do something important. Most of the time you build them on sea maps to defend the sea, and that's definitely a mistake

[untold crane]

Only if vs t1, or if the thing's they're shooting at are also in the puddle. If the Telchine is in the puddle and the target isnt, the Telchine is getting names called and being sad

[slender coral]

Yep

Ok next question

Why is it that arquebus are so good when lances are kinda ass

[untold crane]

Arq shoots faster, has more range, and does more damage per shot. It's a t2 unit, this is normal. Issue with Lance is that it's oppressive like a t1 starlight almost, you just need to have like 10 of them to get there. And you lose if you make 10 of them without a frontline, so this only happens with coop play
On a sidenote, arq is actually subpar for a sniper unit in t2. It hits softer than other snipers from less range, and is more expensive than things like sheldons while having less impact per-unit than a banisher

[slender coral]

I see

They did buff the arq cost tho so it might be better now

[untold crane]

They did, and it is. You can have, I think , 1 extra Arq compared to before, on the same M/E costs, when going from 7-8. Which is about the spot where Arq starts being a powerful unit, because its weakness is its damage+reload cycle both being ass. And the fact that its all terrain-ness means that when you climb you lose range.... but that's its own thing

[gloomy fulcrum]

I don’t want to cut off current convo but are ballistas the worst version of a rocket bot? Looking at the cost and their frankly worse stats (other than HP), idk how I could justify going that build over other rocket compositions (cents or thugs)