Legion Strategy Thread

[gilded owl]

I think it's 2 bursts of leg destroyer at 700

To kill a herring

[shy galleon]

i dunno lets try play lane map and test with infinite resource

[untold crane]

i think the math is every 1-2 core DD you can make a free missile one

[untold crane]

would a core player who knows about leg DD put missile boats in front of their DD?

[gilded owl]

I can't till Friday ): I only have semi consistent periods of 10mins rn

[untold crane]

feelsbad

[errant sparrow]

yeah this is the first (real) multi-weapon drone unit so that feature wasn't put out yet for it

[untold crane]

the savior comes

[shy galleon]

okay np

[errant sparrow]

I think that would be a feature before long but idk if it will be attached to maneuver/roam or be a separate toggle

[shy galleon]

should be seperate, since roam already does something

[untold crane]

myrmidon. but ya you kinda just want the heavy drones out anyway

[errant sparrow]

I know but we're in an anti-button regime

[shy galleon]

enough of the implicit rules on roam/maneveur

[errant sparrow]

Someone has to make a big stink about buttons being good and then we can have buttons again

[untold crane]

I didnt know there were any and now im sad

i thought it just meant the units move a bit more lmao

[gilded owl]

I use buttons for 1/2 of my commands

[untold crane]

the other half use clicks?

[gilded owl]

Rip they removed the friendly fire, frigate balls incoming

[rich narwhal]

The frigates will still block each other from firing, but once the torpedo is fired it can't hit any of your ships

[gilded owl]

@shy galleon I'm going to try some navy soon

[shy galleon]

could be on in 30m

[mighty shoal]

Hippocampus (`legnavyscout`)

Light Assault Corvette

Faction: Legion
Health: 700
Cost: 120 M / 1'600 E / 1'800 B
Speed: 93 / 72 accel / 71° per sec turning
Vision: 600 / 900 (air)

Weapons

Twin Rapid-fire Machine Guns
DPS: 60 (2x burst, 12 dmg, 0.40s reload)
Range: 351 (16 splash)
Can hit: Air, Boats, Ground

Model by: ZephyrSkies (Model), Phill-Art (Concept Art) | generated in 37ms | updated every 4 hours

Supporter (`coresupp`)

Light Gun Boat

Faction: Cortex
Health: 480
Cost: 100 M / 1'000 E / 1'400 B
Speed: 110 / 99 accel / 82° per sec turning
Vision: 600 / 900 (air)

Weapons

[2x] LightLaser
DPS: 44 (41 dmg, 0.93s reload)
Range: 280 (12 splash)
Can hit: Air, Boats, Ground

Model by: Flaka | generated in 40ms | updated every 4 hours

Dolphin (`armdecade`)

Fast Assault Corvette

Faction: Armada
Health: 970
Cost: 175 M / 1'500 E / 2'450 B
Speed: 105 / 90 accel / 74° per sec turning
Vision: 375 / 562 (air)

Weapons

[2x] Rapid-fire close-quarters plasma turret
DPS: 68 (3x burst, 9 dmg, 0.40s reload)
Range: 280
Can hit: Air, Boats, Ground

Model by: FireStorm | generated in 20ms | updated every 4 hours

[gilded owl]

Well that was some good gameplay

I just think the biggest issue I'm facing with legion sea is the fact those ships are way more e dense

But that's just a skill issue

[shy galleon]

yeh the frigate destroyer seems balanced enough

[gilded owl]

Yeah, I still don't like how they are cheap for a unit that attacks uw

[shy galleon]

you are forced into ship play tho cause legion hard counter sub

in the early game

the early eel or legion sub is big cheesy play vs cortex

cortex really strong riptide but their uw def is really expensive

[gilded owl]

Yep

You kinda got to pray that your torp launcher is in the right place

[shy galleon]

so it's like you are scouting to look for the sub

[gilded owl]

I can definitely see more skaters and herrings vs legion sea

It's also kinda weird how little legion relies on radar for me

[shy galleon]

yeh not only that it's the fastest anti sub

if there's enough aa to kill the drone then you suddenly want a spotter ship

[gilded owl]

Yah, but you won't need that till the later stages

You need like 4 aa turrets to counter the drones

[gilded owl]

It struggles against the commander tho, which opens up some interesting early game strats

It also makes me wonder if with proper air scouting, one could successfully open hovers v legion sea

[shy galleon]

it's definitely an annoying threat

as the sea player i think it's just a cheese, unless the medium hover gets better

[gilded owl]

I think the scout hovers would trade decently against the hippo

The argos can't hit hovers

They don't have the eco to field a destroyer until later

[untold crane]

Pretty sure legion has to rely on Phorcys and coastal DC launcher to stay alive vs good early hover harrassment, bc their units kinda just don't do the job. Ig you could maybe do it if commied enough metal for a DD tho

Only relevant on extremely short distance spawns though, probably. And not that important on full sea vs sea maps.

[pliant rover]

Corvettes and reclaim metal

As long as land is defended you get a free metal advantage

Even if your units on sea die you reclaim for free

[mental lintel]

do we have a legion opener strat?

[pliant rover]

3 mex, 2 wind, botlab for me. Into spam straight away

For vehicles its 3 wind

Scale energy to make 200/s then overcharge base mexes

[mental lintel]

ooo

nice

for me, 2 mex, 2 wind, any lab, eco scale

then straight at the 15 or so metal/s, t2 lab

[sonic cradle]

3 mex, 1 wind then bot lab.

...or if the map allows, 4 to 5 mex, no energy buildings, then bot lab.

[mental lintel]

exactly legion gameplay XD

"wind? Who needs that?"

[pliant rover]

Also, rapidly expand outer mexes if your opponent allows it

The more mexes you control, the faster you can spam

2-3 con turrets per botlab also seems to be the ideal ratio to spam goblins or satyr

[mental lintel]

veh front is best for lasting out the tides

[mental lintel]

bot is best at pushing for the reason above

[untold crane]

you can start bot lab and build a veh lab on front with com for the best of both worlds

typically when i can afford it i also get an e storage to help pay for the expensive e buildings

lets you get Omexes on around 150 e if its full, you just have to keep an eye on the consumption before you get your next Omex

[mental lintel]

Ooooo, probably gonna try when I am in a 2v2

Thanks

[mental lintel]

E store for me is just a part of scaling

[untold crane]

keep in mind you'll need to have your botlab on high priority building if you want to keep up the spam

[mental lintel]

I hate wind failing me so I go and build em

[brazen granite]

how many do you end up building by the time you reach T2?

[untold crane]

You should only need 0, but having E store lets you circumvent e production buildings if you're ok with not converting the excess into metal, or if you're on a crazy wind map. So the real answer is it depends on the map, but you should only really care about having 1 e store if you're not worried about E stalling off wind dropping.

[mental lintel]

e store for me is just my opinion, if you are good at the game follow Ee'O advice

[gilded owl]

Thats not the real reason for e storage, it's the fact that Legion produces and uses so much e, that the passive storage scaling (thru e production buildings) can't keep up with it. You need at least 1 storage to prevent from e stalling if you are on anything but a solar map

[brazen granite]

I am VERY concerned with wind falling off. It always seems to hit right when I'm pushing to tech up.

[untold crane]

a geo does replace 1 e storage purely in production, but otherwise ya this is actually true. You need a ton of e prod to make your 'good' units outside of phalanx in t2, and it takes like 4k e to make either Omex or Asolar if you need those. Dec/Lance/Kark are all at leask 2.5k e too.

[untold crane]

If you find yourself E stalling a lot when teching, make 1 more Asolar first

[gilded owl]

A geo doesn't replace an e storage with legion, you still need one

[untold crane]

really? The 300e isnt enough? it works on isthmus

[gilded owl]

It's not about pure income, is about income per storage

@untold crane i have an experiment for you, make 1000 wind turbines and try to power 4 adv converters, don't add any other storage options and you will see what I mean

[untold crane]

I mean ya ik that won't work. But making buildings vs powering them is about rates of bp. You need less e prod to make a thing the less bp you use to make that thing.
To be clear im not saying the E storage is bad - I pretty much always have an e storage either just before or just after my first lab, purely because of how much easier it makes doing things as legion.
I'm just surprised that you think it's specifically needed for the faction

[gilded owl]

You can get away without a storage on cor or arm, but not legion

Legion has so much more production, upkeep, and cost in the e world than the other 2

[untold crane]

True. Would you make more than one?

[gilded owl]

No

[untold crane]

I felt that it was unnecessary as well

Though it has use on high wind maps

[gilded owl]

I'm not getting to 4k e income without a fusion most games

Or 3k mind you

[untold crane]

Fair. Okee, I'll update my understanding.

Have you tried balancing Asolar prod vs wind prod?

or just try to stay on winds all the time?

or solar ig

[gilded owl]

Going asolars isn't that good most of the times, outside of solar maps

Maybe if your in a extended t1 game, but otherwise just make normal solars and reclaim

[untold crane]

Atm I make ~40 winds when wind is maxed at 15, and up to 4 solars for constant income and as a metal bank for use when building first fus

eh

lots of people use solars like that, but it feels very inefficient time and metal-wise on the faction that is metal deficient

i'd rather go for Asolar and start working towards my pre-t2 fusion income

[gilded owl]

You don't need solar income for fusion

[untold crane]

no, but legion Asolar is about 90% as efficient as a legion Fus.

i think its literally a difference of one extra Asolar for the same production/metal cost

So you can kinda just build those instead of fusion, build them earlier than you get your t2, consume excess with a packet of e converters, get your t2 up, then start eating the Asolar for your fusion.
By the time you finish the first fusion you should have saved up enough metal to drop a second one down in under 40-60 seconds

on maps where you build 20 wind*

[gilded owl]

Making that many asolars is more than the e cost for the fusion

It could've been made faster going straight for the fusion

[untold crane]

Sure but theyre producing for it while theyre at it.
And to the latter point that's true purely on bp costs

But thats not significantly different than with basic solars either

[mental lintel]

okay so asolar are faster but produce less over in about 5 mins

[untold crane]

you just aren't spending e to build them

[mental lintel]

fus produce more and make up down time if game goes into early late

[gilded owl]

You can't make the energy back from adv solars to justify building them first than a fusion

Plus all of that takes time

[untold crane]

hmm....
Part of the issue with my thinking may be that I consider E a problem of rate and not quantity

[gilded owl]

Yes

[untold crane]

i dont see 2.6k e and think 'ah thats a lot of e for a t1 unit' i think 'oh i need more e prod to build this than a balista'

and then i do intuitive maths. If i think about e as a quantity, i just build e storages and then get what i want to build the thing.

Like, you can build an AFus on 1 full advanced E storage

assuming you have the e production you used to build a t2 lab

[untold crane]

but basically you're saying that, among two options, it would be better to build e storages and fill them than build lots of asolars to power the production of a fusion.

[gilded owl]

Nah, I'm saying that legion needs 1 storage no matter what

For fusion, if your e stalling then you made too much bp

[untold crane]

true

[gilded owl]

Should've posted these awhile ago, but here are the me and chronos + some friends matches.

https://bar-rts.com/replays/2fc71f697fad01e10ba2b99189a4ad75
https://bar-rts.com/replays/4cd01f69f4c106a1312de2b46e0f5314
https://bar-rts.com/replays/0ed41f69f38155868632a9dc6979e4c9
https://bar-rts.com/replays/b0d71f69cb6f72e22152891beeaf63eb
https://bar-rts.com/replays/e2da1f69cf2236f4677d7dfff02d6a15

[shy galleon]

the biggest thing I took away was it's always about repair

[gilded owl]

Different than other factions?

[shy galleon]

na, always the same

[gilded owl]

Did you see the balance change?

[shy galleon]

no, got a link?

[gilded owl]

#🔋｜legion-faction message

Aa ship deflation feels good

I'm pretty in-between for the frigate change, not for nor against them

[shy galleon]

i'm not sure if you can make the torps dodgeable by subs but not completely dodgeably by riptides

83 vs 57 speed

they fairly hard counter subs, not sure if players will ever go sub vs leg sea

You can still use subs but have to be very careful, use them with frigates, etc.

[untold crane]

When i played sea as cor on isthmus a few times, i had great success in starting with a defensive orca if i scouted a harbor from my opp. But I doubt that's possible vs legion. You'd need to get a couple anti-sub porc early maybe, or just rush a destroyer out to defend your mexes with how fast keteas can start hitting your expansions/eco.
You could previously get them out in under 1.10 consistently, with the cost change i'd imagine sub 60-second timings is perfectly doable

[shy galleon]

cortex orca is a strong combat and defensive tool because opening destroyer first on most maps is bad. so orca has no bad matchups other than gunboats running past it

[untold crane]

Ketea opener comparatively is... less good? despite how much faster you get it?
and how much cheaper, particularly*

[shy galleon]

ketea should be equally good in the same role

it just has 100 less range than orca

it's cheaper and easier to make on reaction (whereas you can be too poor to make a reactive orca)

[gilded owl]

Ok big brain idea incoming

If you could make the cor sam turret on water, would you use it against legion navy rather than a slingshot?

[untold crane]

If it were metal/bp more efficient, probably. Or if it was just harder to let die on accident, probably

[mental lintel]

i think i got one for arty on land

scouts and t2 vec arty

followed up by the keres

[untold crane]

?

[mental lintel]

bad idea that would have worked but i suck balls

so uh

yeah

[daring sphinx]

#🔋｜legion-faction message

@vale shore

Wheelie+Alaris harass into 10-15 Helios for com sniping then 3-4 Decurions +1 lance for front hold and push if needed

Depends on how match is going for T2, but I personally love rushing out a prom or two on high energy eco to shatter front lines then retreat because the speed on that guy is sick

Then a 2 Keres 1 Daedalus T3 comp is deadly AF to chomp down on any kind of porced position

[mental lintel]

that's beyond good

i would go and get metal up and estore to keep a small blitz bastion up to rapidly control land

[untold crane]

Goblin->1 Rez->mass satyr for harrass->kark + rez (up to a comp of around 20 satyr and 5 kark with 3-5 rezzers) lets you chow down on most problems in t1. kinda vulnerable to rocket bots so get balistas to personal taste as needed.

Then with metal wreck get 1-2 Omexes into t2 with proteus->phalanx rush to hold front or push, depending on your position. if holding you can spam a few infestors out for mobile bp that defends itself and wins reclaim wars vs rezbots. if pushing you can make 1-2 infestors into a pack of 5-6 hoplites for eco damage

[shy galleon]

prometheus niche is somewhat open maps where it can fight enemy heavy tanks

imo medusa pretty strong like starlight, the downside of medusa/starlight being strong/accessible is it can push Prometheus out of the meta.

[mental lintel]

Ts will kill me heart if I faced against this. This is the best pvp opener I seen so far

Thank you for blessing my eyes with this

[mental lintel]

Prometheus is a shock unit to me, quicker than its bot counter part and has a somewhat still high hp pool, leading to great value when protected, Medusa is great with vision, your point is very good.

[untold crane]

Prometheus leads the charge of t2 veh push into anything not t3. But its strength is mostly in t1 cleanup. This makes it good when your t2 e production is weakest and can't use/make it, or as a final addition to an army you've already built and just need to keep from getting pounced on

[daring sphinx]

Indeed, prom rushing isn't really good but I find it fun nonetheless, but nothing in legion t2 really comes close to a tzar rush in dopamine release

the daedalus feels like a t3 tzar in application but its just too expensive and comes out too late to really hit the same

[shy galleon]

deadulus feels op to me, handily beats everything except multiple catapults/vanguards (but it can go around on wider maps)

slight spam weakness but you can easily cover that with a few phalanx

for rule of cool, prometheus is my fav unit, medusa possibly 2nd

[daring sphinx]

OP in a "this is really good" way or OP in a "this thing is overtuned and really needs a nerf to fit better" way?

[shy galleon]

latter

it's like a starlight on hotwheels and 360 fire. This thing can make a joke out of enemy mid range t3: shiva, razor, demon (as long as kite).

Unit that can do 100% of their dps while not getting hit by the enemy's main force is sky and earth different than other units

[daring sphinx]

Think just an angle lock limit might bring it down to reasonable status?

[shy galleon]

at least an angle lock probably... I haven't really thought about the unit -- what role it's supposed to have, how you would design interactions to try and make it fun

oh yeah it's 61 speed to demon 63, 950 range vs 500

what mobile thing doesn't it beat? spam, air, t3 artillery, mass drones

it's reasonable against medium tanks, starlights
sniper could kill it but very avoidable.
crushes everything else t2/t3

it loses to 6 starlights if it fights them head on, it wins if you come from an angle and engage just part at a time

[sonic cradle]

it also looses when hills exist.

[shy galleon]

ah yeh well it's a railgun so los blockers hurt it. still it's fast enough that it doesn't have to fully engage like starlight

[sonic cradle]

plus the fact it's a tank.

[shy galleon]

with starlight the enemy can wait behind the corner and the starlight either sits or does nothing or walks in exposing to a flank. While the same tactic is okay vs deadulus,

daedulus is 61 speed, it can just kite away or move to the flank side and look for targets there

only downside is LoS blocker and deadulus is 165000 energy, and 1800 E to shoot per volley.

[vale shore]

Does anyone have any videos or creators who play legion they’d recommend? Looking to learn more

[untold crane]

Pretty sure all your points here are valid

I don't think the Daedylus can be nerfed until the Prometheus (my brain is bad at names) Praetorian is rebalanced to be not trash though.
Legion doesn't have a unit that can battle with battlemechs effectively atm. Keres kinda get the job done but the moment they go up a slight incline they become obsolete vs even most t2 Bots.
This means Daedylus has to be balanced to both outrun and outgun anything larger than it, because Legion doesn't have a tool to be an effective spacer for it in t3.
Again, Keres does kinda do the job. But not vs battlemechs, and thats where the problem comes into play.

Also, I don't think an angle nerf beyond reduction to 300 degree angle works in general. It's a skirmisher tank - if you reduce its fire arc it needs to become an artillery tank instead. Which could be fine, but they already have the Medusa and Myrmidon and Boreas. Seems kinda redundant to have a second t3 version in addition to the t2 ones that already do the job well

[shy galleon]

by battlemech you mean titan?

[untold crane]

Titan, RB to an extent, Jugg, Mass Shiva/Demon

Titan the biggest problem obv but ya

[shy galleon]

it's possible titan is underpriced but can't fix OP with more OP 😝

[untold crane]

True. Again, I do think your points are valid, its just that Legion can't handle those types of units until the Praetorian gets reworked

Besides, even now you need like 3x the metal investment in daedyluses to kill titans until you get to around 10 daeds

(ignoring spam or w/e)

And RB is cheap af. you can have like 2 per Daed

[untold crane]

Also a point worth noting, skirmishers, even t3 ones, get killed if you pin them. Which is actually not terribly difficult to do to the Daedylus. It's more a question of having enough firepower to kill it once you do

[untold crane]

Legion Spammable units vs Legion 'make a pack of them and keep them alive as long as possible for maximum value' units :
Spam (make as many as you can/need)- Goblin, Satyr, Phalanx, Wheelie, Decurion, Triton, Keres, Myrmidon, Sol Invictus
Valued Additions (Make a pack and protect/keep alive as long as possible/use for specific attack or defense - don't rebuild unless required) - Phobos, Balista, Karkinos, Thanatos, Arquebus, Infestor, Incinerator, Telchine, Helios, Lance, Alaris, Gladiator, Medusa, Prometheus, Mantis, Boreas, Cleaver, Javelin, Daedylus, Charybdis

This has been my observation/experience thus far. Make units from the first group constantly, while adding units from the second group as needed to accomplish some specific goal.

[untold crane]

Legion Air Build (for scaling eco)
initial mexes ->2 wind ->E Storage -> 2 wind -> Boost 3 noctua -> 4 wind -> boost last noctua and con -> con- expand mexes if possible, then build con turret that touches as many mexes+lab as possible. Make 8 winds, then 1 omex, then 1 additional con turret. Repeat for all owned mexes. Build 2 Asolar for minimum E stability.
While con is building eco, use comm to assist build con turret or lab or winds as needed. After nano is complete, comm can step aside to make 8 converters to harvest excess E, then return to assist lab production.
Lab should have built 5 figs by 1.30, then 20 by min 5, 50 by min 10, and 100 by min 15. Some deviance is to be expected if playing actively on the map via mosquitos or martyr bombing timings.

It takes 12 mosquitos to guarantee a kill on a Legion comm on front. 10 vs Arm or Cor if no aa present. it takes 2 Martyrs to kill t1 aa, 8 to kill t1.5 AA. 6 martyrs just about kills a closed dragon-turret of all varieties. 7 Martyrs kills or just about kills an HLT, depending on veterancy.
For best effect, I've found having a pack of 5 mosquitos at a minimum is very helpful for finishing off targets that martyrs did not quite kill, or if AA presence was higher than expected and not enough martyrs landed their attacks.
However, with early scouting you can send a single martyr to harrass mex/wind production along with your initial 5 figs, to provide a small advantage for a front player

[pliant rover]

Decent build, but theres better imo.

If you go 3 mex into 4 winds, you get to boost enough noctua to deny early fighter plays, scout full map and punish transport first plays if were playing say istmus

You will overflow some E, but in exchange you get a big tempo advantage

Both for you and your team

I personally do 3m 4w lab boost1 4w boost4+orders storage 4w assistOmex

Anything extra is typically from cons i either buy or make

I like to play more active as legion air 🤷

Also, one thing extra for air

Around 4-5 con turrets are enough for 1 lab to make things efficiently

I aim for 2 t1 labs around 15min

[gilded owl]

You don't need 2 labs for legion air at 15min

If you somehow greeded enough to produce that much economy to complete use 2 labs, your better off going t2

[pliant rover]

Eeehhh

While legions interceptor figs are rly good, i prefer having map control via cheap t1

In general i prefer faster deployment over t2 air

[gilded owl]

Wdym map control, legion t2 is much better at map control

You have faster figs + way more efficient gunships

[pliant rover]

Yeah i wana see you try to fight 20 noctua with 8 t2s

Anyone with decent micro will destroy you

[gilded owl]

Not really

The 8 t2s will win

[pliant rover]

Like i drop legion t2 labs situacionally if the enemy air is being agressive with utilities

But in general i just zone with mass noctua

If it works why fix it 🤷

[gilded owl]

You need to have 120+ m/s to use 2 t1 labs

Just for figs

You can afford a t2 air lab almost instantly

[gilded owl]

Because it can be better

[pliant rover]

Ig

[gilded owl]

Btw you can also get more out of 1 lab than with 2 unless your metal income is huge. Just set the needed con turrets to guard for maximum efficiency

[untold crane]

I play rotato, so eh. And yiu kinda really want the extra e storage bc its how you decide to build Omex or not. And the faster yiu get those the better as air

[untold crane]

Noctuas only need 5 nanos or so. Technically a bit faster to 7 but eh.

[pliant rover]

Another argument can be made about Buildtimecost to reclaim and reuse

:p

[untold crane]

20 noctua vs 8 t2 fig loses every time unless the t2 figs are antimicro'd. 8 t2 figs also beats 8 stalwarts tho, as well as 8 velator, in a head on fight. You need 2 labs to play aggro, whether both t1 or one is t1 and the other t2. And you will pretty much always need a cloud of noctuas until you can spit out velators 1/sec

Anyway, on rotato I go estor before 4 wind bc i can get out more units by the time min 3 hits than otherwise. And with 2 figs you can fight most pre min 3 aggro

[vale shore]

What’s the story on the t1.5 mexs? What’s the process behind making them

Worth it or no?

[pliant rover]

Well, i feel like the overcharged mexes come from a natural progression from either metal advantage to snowball, or constrained mex spot count where you want to scale smoother

[untold crane]

from a purely eco-building standpoint:
barring a near-future upgrade into t2 mex, all mexes over 2.0 are worth upgrading to Omex first. They pay themselves off in <100 seconds, and refund their cost back as soon as they themselves get upgraded, so you can both have more stable M income as you transition to t2 and can do so faster from one mex to the next. They do need an Asolar per 3 built, but that's fine if you built those first and made normal converters to not waste excess E.
They are especially worth building on High Value mexes, for obvious reasons. This much is just always true.

However, BAR is a game of choices. Building Omexes while you're even is usually not great, particularly if you don't have much space between your main base and the front you're barely holding. It is also bad for timing attacks outside of t1.5 spam army building, and is bad if built without the E production to maintain them. It is also not usually super good as tech, though on some maps it can be better than others. It is usually good to build as Air.

[mental lintel]

6 arty ships and three aa/radar, rest is for figate or destroyer

res ship may be use to either gain metal advantage or to gain hp wall

[gilded owl]

You don't need 6 arty ships. 2 max

[upper notch]

these guys expensive as hell

I make only one. To whittle my enemy and annoy them, forcing them to get close (and thus get kite to dead)

if I got enough metal for a 2nd, I would rather go t2

[gilded owl]

If you go t2 you will die in navy. Better to just spend the metal on frigates and destroyers

[errant sparrow]

I think Legion has more of a timer to go T2. We'll see how their T2 lab shakes out.

[upper notch]

supreme isthmus brainrot speaking

[errant sparrow]

It is Isthmus issues, again. But if their T2 can deal with mass frigate a little better then we'll see them transition more often and earlier. Hope so.

[gilded owl]

Ewww isthmus

[upper notch]

plus. Omex will make the transition smoother too

[mental lintel]

what else can deal with sol invictus as a legion player?

other than 7 keres

that evo showed

[untold crane]

Anything other than jav/praetorian

in equal metal or whatever equal minus 1 unit is

Sol Invictus is an anti t2/t1 slaughter machine, but it sucks at t3 fighting. Thats what your daedylus/keres type stuff is for

[mental lintel]

ah but it's good against juggs?

[mental lintel]

thanks

[untold crane]

Sol isn't good at t3 fighting. It cannot 1v1 titans, juggs or behe, and it cannot fight equal metal of much else.

To fight juggs, your best bet is daedylus myrmidon, with much more myrmidon than daedylus.

[mental lintel]

ah thanks

[untold crane]

Its actually incredibly good vs spam though. It can kill up to 8 lanes of spam without taking more than an occasional hotshot of damage from that spam. Its very good at pushing through that type of army

[mental lintel]

tbf

the sun does heavy dmg

spread out

so makes sense it's name stake also deals with spread out areas of threats

and not large things

[gilded owl]

Telchine should have it's metal cost reduced to 400 and it's energy cost reduced to ~9,900 with it's torpedo launcher removed

[errant sparrow]

Wait. But this belongs in suggestions.

[gilded owl]

Lol

[untold crane]

so many wrong threads lol

[untold crane]

@vast frost

[vast frost]

to be fair honestly

barrages need a stationary equivalent too

[untold crane]

perdition

and you can just make them that equivalent. put a box of dragons teeth around them lol

[gilded owl]

Am I able to start complaining strategizing about t2 navy?

[gilded owl]

From my limited testing of it and no actual combat experience these are my thoughts right now:

From a simple open sea v open sea, legion navy is outclassed in just about everything (substantial range difference), up until the plasma bombardment ship shows up. That ship takes all the relevant parts of a flagship for 10k less metal and it's insanely good until it has to retreat. Once that shows up with a decent escort, there is not much that can beat it in a fight.

However, legion navy feels incredibly strong on maps where the sea and land interactions are numerous (Serena cauldron for example), the range difference doesn't matter nearly as much as open water, especially with the battleships.the legions battleships ability to walk on land gives it a huge advantage, being able to go over a island instead of around creates huge opportunities for flanking maneuvers negating the range disadvantage.

Gameplay wise, it feels very similar to legions t1 gameplay with cheaper less powerful ships, but also more specialized. I can definitely see it becoming a top choice for just about every map replacing cor.

[errant sparrow]

Hypotheticals that need testing are good to drop in here

[gilded owl]

Just tested t2 in game, everything went as I thought it would

[pliant rover]

Im kinda curious on how a battleship rush would play on sea maps

[untold crane]

hey just got back whats the verdict?

[untold crane]

legions battleships ability to walk on land gives it a huge advantage

EXCUSE ME YES??

[untold crane]

YOU missed a pretty big point here - if a battleship can cross land, then that means on your shallow water crossing maps, you can expect a won legion sea to start pushing lanes with battleships instead of transitioning to t3 or eco. You can also win one side of isthmus and move your units to the other side, if middle has enough space. Thats freaking huge dude

[pliant rover]

Oh yeah... Naval lane transition

Good point actually

[gilded owl]

i push with ambhib units, that doesnt change too much except like a min faster

[untold crane]

hm

[untold crane]

810x2 burst damage 850 range tanks seems like a decent value

[mental lintel]

I'm sorry, what

[untold crane]

not to mention you cant swarm them

[mental lintel]

we have carriers for seaplanes?

going to make the starcraft 2 golden armada in BAR then

[mental lintel]

XD

man i will bully whatever land their is

with the new ships later

[untold crane]

It means that a person who has won sea with legion navy is an immediate threat to even inland bases
You don't need to make amphib, bc your amphib IS your sea unit.

We have epic boat tank that is built on land, and epic tank boat that is built on sea, and all was perfectly balanced

also the drone carrier planes are... interesting

you use them either to soften aa or to provide chaffe targets for bombing runs i think

but they're very slow, just a bit faster than a hive is

and carry only 2 drones

[gilded owl]

You win sea in t1, not t2

[untold crane]

i'd agree in general. it does not always happen this way though, especially with more people

[pliant rover]

Reminds me a bit of that one movie, forget what its called

About alien earth invasion

[sonic cradle]

I just realized that with the battleship that can walk onto land
any map with even 1 small lake is viable to see those

[untold crane]

lmao, all that simmers legion battleships inc eh?

[untold crane]

I mean you can make them on pond on isthmus too

or go seaplanes and have access to:
flying phalanxes
flying mantises
actually decent bombers
Semi-normal fighters

Which, btw, the flying mantises and Tyrannus combo extremely well

[pliant rover]

Tbh, i wouldnt be surprised if the new marauder rush is pond battleships

[untold crane]

Theyre very slow on land. Like, Behe slow. But they ARE very strong, shooting for a total of 810 per burst at like 850-900? range, and having a short range shotgun to fight largish stuff next to them. I'd see them more as midlane pushes or surprise second-sea armies than a marauder rush

Geo goes Tritons and Pond goes Scyllas and you get some crazy 3-player navy lanes that can just go stand on shorelines if mid is having trouble

[untold crane]

legion t2 cruisers annihilate frigates btw. They're so much better at fighting ships that you actually might want to get t2 sea up quickly, especially on large or large team maps

[gilded owl]

Not really

[untold crane]

? how so?

Like, generally in small team games you win on t1 anyway, but my thought is mostly for large team games where that is less of a problem

[gilded owl]

Still a massive investment cost

Large team games also win in t1

[untold crane]

?

[gilded owl]

They do

8v8s on deeploria end in t1

[untold crane]

Are you talking about 'lame duck' victory or like they just end

oh ic

i see seaplanes a lot on large team sea maps though

do they not count?

cuz you'll usually have seaplanes and a t2 player regardlesss

well, air and tech* player regardless

[gilded owl]

Seaplanes is t1.5

No tech player in sea

[untold crane]

.... right, but they're definitely stronger than t1 and have higher investment, no? This part is just a nomenclature clarification btw

I mean you say that but I've never seen a game of 8v8 with no tech player. literally.

high os or low os.

though on sea maps sometimes its the air player

[gilded owl]

The only sea matches where I sea a tech player are the ones where I win by a land slide

[untold crane]

Do you think Omexes would change that at all?

on either end of the spectrum

well, more like, DO they

Either way though, I see sea maps with a tech player on each side more often than not, so with my limited knowledge and mechanical skill I can't contest that

[gilded owl]

Not really, legion navy is more metal intensive in general because of the increased reliance om destroyers

[untold crane]

So you do need the Omexes, but you need them in order to have the metal to build DDs, not to get to t2 faster

[gilded owl]

Yep

[spice loom]

With the legion battleship able to walk on land that cements legion as the king of weird terrains. The phalanx and napalm king of canyon low space warfare, leg has prob best all terrain capabilities, decent tank boat and now a boat that can change lanes and flank land.

So while you have hard time fighting on open fields and big naval battles, you can very effectively fight more guerilla like warfare and exploit map specific properties to appear in unexpected spots.

[untold crane]

interestingly, the legion flying drone carrier is~~ VERY good~~ situationally? good at turning air fights, purely bc they are labs that make chaffe. They might actually be better than actual Noctuas once you get enough of them, though obv their AA capacity itself is garbage so you'd need to have actual fights involved

because their aa is crap, though, you'd end up only making a handful of them - like 5-10 - and ensure you have more actual figs

They also have the problem of speed. They don't move fast enough to keep up with fig dogfights, so they seem to be mostly things you pair with Tyrannus or to give sight to bombardment units?

[karmic stump]

i like the idea of using it as an air ballon of old

[gilded owl]

@shy galleon have you tested legion t2 navy yet?

[gilded owl]

):

[pliant rover]

@untold crane

Battleships:

This. Also, they are hilariously slow to transition into opposite sea, and if the other sea is even remotely lost, you WILL be gg. Its a overrun unit, Not a "savior" unit. Which is good balance imo.

It also struggles insanely hard against anti heavy units

[untold crane]

I agree. they're kinda crappy Battleships that become very strong land tanks and can kill bases or transition across seas

[pliant rover]

@minor kestrel

[untold crane]

You don't really want to build them specifically to fight land, but you build them to fight your sea, then you have them when you've won it, so you might as well use them some more while you can

Also, technically you can take them from long beach on isthmus and set them on geo cliff to protect a losing geo sea

[pliant rover]

I actually find it a bit different.
During my match today, they behaved quite well as battleships after i ran down my opponent with effective raiding. They did really nicely in navy as a faceplant unit

They have mad issues on land though

For one

Slow as fk

It took me around a ton of tjme to transition across the middle on istmus

The enemy navy just locked it down

They also struggle with direct fire high damage weaponry

Dies to 3 titan lasers

[untold crane]

They lose to the usual anti-tzar units

And it should take around 30-50 seconds for them to walk across isthmus land bridge

They're better used to help support a large push through mid at that point

[pliant rover]

For context, i tried to pull a carry play by dumping 10 battleships in a formation towards the enemy backline, and they were slow enough to where the enemy pond caught them with t3

[untold crane]

and then they can just walk down the other side of the bridge into the other pond to protect some seaplane con or w/e you have that's building a new lab there

hm

[pliant rover]

They are NOT a good naval landing uni

Fantastic harraser though

[untold crane]

ya they're very slow

honestly so slow theyre more good to poke at shores agressively, than to actually do land tank things

Well, but theyre good enough you can also use them to secure a shoreline and build a new lab there too

idk

[pliant rover]

Thats exactly what im thinking tbh

Granted. The amphibious tanks are insanely good

[untold crane]

Ya cuz vs anything less than middle t3 or anti heavy land units they kinda just win

[pliant rover]

Might be worth swapping to a amphib lab and pumping tankboats

[untold crane]

so they're hard to push into

I think you'd just make a seaplane lab and send an air con to make some stuff, with engi on shore to make turrets

[pliant rover]

Too hard with a decent air

Trust me

I tried

🙂

[untold crane]

cuz if you're gonna do amphib lab you might as well go t3 undersea gantry

[pliant rover]

Eeheh, not entirely

[minor kestrel]

it makes sense because when they're afloat they use a different battleship cannon that has uhh... (1-140^2/200^2)*2=102% larger Area of effect

[pliant rover]

T3 transition comes later due to eco constraints

[minor kestrel]

so it's nicer to have them stationed on water.

[pliant rover]

While amphib can be pumped for earlier agression

[minor kestrel]

when defending vs many units

on land they use a lower AoE higher DPS version

[untold crane]

They also have midrange shotguns on front and rear, so they can actually be on land and defend your base from the overrun

but

[untold crane]

ya this is true

[minor kestrel]

Shotguns... that for some reason have better accuracy than machineguns

at this point almost comparable to Titan's main cannons in it's arms

[untold crane]

My main thing is if I win vs long beach I want to immediately hit geo sea and knock them out, possibly long front too

[pliant rover]

Ive actually thought about a extra idea for t2 navy specifically. It kinda seems like to me that for legion the steady production of carriers is really really important.

Let me explain

[minor kestrel]

And it is not contextual that the shotguns are front or rear, either.

[pliant rover]

The bombardment ship can not hit the top of center hill

[minor kestrel]

They have the similar logic as Armada's cruiser lasers

[pliant rover]

Not effectively atleast

[minor kestrel]

e.g. both 360 arc of fire

[pliant rover]

Drones however have bleedover range bonus

They act like units after they detect a target

Its actually a much stronger albeit vunnerable influence strategy

It also allows you to force back enemy air response

As drones can bait figs into flak

Any info on the combat engy?

Didnt have time to test it yet

What can it make?

Just regular eco stuff

Or also combat

[untold crane]

the expected stuff, mostly. I'll need to look again, but it can turn tiny islands into t2 artillery posts, make radar, nanos, and a few other things

[untold crane]

They can't shoot through the ship itself.

[pliant rover]

If it can make turrets, what units can it make?

Very important question

[untold crane]

so better than 270 degree arc

Tritons I think? lemme check

[pliant rover]

Send a pic with options

I might be onto something regarding plays

[untold crane]

gimme like 3 mins

[minor kestrel]

They can shoot through the ship itself exactly like Armada cruiser does.

and if to delve in further what makes current Scylla strong on land: ↑

https://tenor.com/view/address-me-gif-3314967408153193330

[minor kestrel]

Here ya go.

[pliant rover]

Hm.

Useless

Ok thx

[sonic cradle]

building an eviscerator in unexpected places is far from useless.

[pliant rover]

I was more trying to gauge for options to effectively pressure land

A 3 battleship to 1 engy ratio would be a very cool idea

[untold crane]

Hecaton does not have aa guns btw

[minor kestrel]

Guess you gotta just use amphibious lab anyway. For that AA bot and the Telchine for tanking

[pliant rover]

Yea.

Also, telchine is bad

Make triton

[pliant rover]

Yeah....

[minor kestrel]

Balance state of legion is not a question, we all know it's bad in vanilla

[pliant rover]

No amphibious followup without a lab swap

[minor kestrel]

Telchine because it's a tanky unit for brittle battleship

AA bot because nothing is better than a dedicated aa

[pliant rover]

Triton deals with things better for the cost

10 tritons kill a undefended flagship

[untold crane]

Telchine is back to being unable to fight ships effectively, and while it is slightly better at fighting land units, its not enough so to make it worth as a raider except as an annoyance you build like 4 of

[minor kestrel]

Triton has self-defense machinegun alike the minigun turrets and assault minigun tanks and assaulty minigun bots

they're meant to only defend themselves vs gunships faceoffs, if gunships are close range enough...

[pliant rover]

Lmao no

[minor kestrel]

Because bombers can just pass over them with minimal damage

[pliant rover]

Triton is one of legions best units imo

Its mobile

It can kill chaff

It has solid dps in numbers

[untold crane]

Triton is legion's best 'bread and butter tank'

[pliant rover]

And it can take some hits

Like ive unironically won seas with just tritons before

[minor kestrel]

Triton is legion's MBT alike Tiger yeah. Just brittle. And only has a 100dps main cannon.

[pliant rover]

And ive carried games by sending tritons thru sea

[untold crane]

You still reach a critical mass of them pretty quickly, and need to build gladiators behind them after that to continue to contribute dps to your army if on land, but the fact that theyre boats is sick

[minor kestrel]

Better treat them as hovers instead.

[sonic cradle]

I Feel like it's a bit over rated.
it's one of the better/best amphib units sure, but people seem to Really over estimate it's raw land to land performance.

[minor kestrel]

Especially considering they are, in fact, to be treated as hovers when playing maps.

[pliant rover]

For its purpose its fantastic

If you wana mass fight

[untold crane]

It's less an overestimation and more just... legion doesnt have another tank it can put 'in front of its starlights'

[pliant rover]

Just do gladi kiting

[untold crane]

gladiators need space to do their job

[minor kestrel]

Not in vanilla tho

[pliant rover]

...

[untold crane]

tritons just need to look at the thing

[minor kestrel]

Need a bugfixed version

[minor kestrel]

due to ↑

[untold crane]

and kinda surround it sorta

[pliant rover]

Gladiators are literally tank hounds with burst

[sonic cradle]

the Prometheus is right there
and the gladiator can put in work as well.

[untold crane]

hm

[minor kestrel]

Exactly what I said
Thanks for agreeing with why this should be fixed to make them a Hound counterpart as I say everywhere. :D

[mighty shoal]

Unit lookup: `prometheus`

Ambigious unit name found (2 units have this name).
Please use the definition name or wait for the autocomplete to run
Units: Prometheus (legaheattank), Prometheus (leghack)

Triton (`legfloat`)

Heavy Convertible Tank/Boat

Faction: Legion
Health: 3'500 hp
Cost: 650 M / 12'000 E / 12'000 B
Speed: 55 / 31 accel / 58° per sec turning
Vision: 500 / 750 (air)

Weapons

Rapid-fire machine gun
DPS: 105 (6x burst, 7 dmg, 0.40s reload)
Range: 400 (16 splash)
Can hit: Air, Boats, Ground

Medium g2g gauss cannon
DPS: 100 (250 dmg, 2.50s reload)
Range: 550 (32 splash)
Can hit: Boats, Ground

Model by: EnderRobo | generated in 17ms | updated every 4 hours

Prometheus (`legaheattank`)

Heavy Assault Heatray Tank

Faction: Legion
Health: 7'700 hp
Cost: 1'250 M / 19'000 E / 19'000 B
Speed: 51 / 18 accel / 49° per sec turning
Vision: 450 / 675 (air)

Weapons

Heavy g2g Cleansing Heat Ray
DPS: 99 (297 dmg, 3.00s reload)
Range: 450 (64 splash)
Can hit: Boats, Ground

Model by: ZephyrSkies | generated in 1ms | updated every 4 hours

[untold crane]

So for 2x the metal you get a single unit that DOES have more hp and direct fire damage, but that you cant fire unless you have 300 spare e to charge it with

[pliant rover]

Legions tanky tanks cost a ton tho.

[untold crane]

Or you can just spam tritons

[sonic cradle]

if only gex could accurately display heatray damage

[untold crane]

Especially since

[mighty shoal]

Tzar (`corgol`)

Very Heavy Assault Tank

Faction: Cortex
Health: 7'800 hp
Cost: 1'650 M / 28'000 E / 30'000 B
Speed: 40 / 9 accel / 29° per sec turning
Vision: 395 / 592 (air)

Weapons

HeavyCannon
DPS: 300 (900 dmg, 3.00s reload)
Range: 650 (292 splash)
Can hit: Boats, Ground

Model by: Mr Bob | generated in 1ms | updated every 4 hours

[pliant rover]

I mean what i do is just walk my arty units with drones that kill chaff and provide vision, and then pop thru tritons as a last defence onion layer

Works good

Also

The legion heatray tank does fantastic damage

[sonic cradle]

Swarm and flank with quickshots.

[minor kestrel]

As it was nicely in the first line of the bugfixing: #1325106086390530179 message

[untold crane]

Like, to make Prometheus work you need to have a Fusion, basically

[minor kestrel]

(Don't necropost there though, old versions incompatible with new game versions)

[untold crane]

Tritons you can just start pumping out immediately, then follow up with gladiators

[minor kestrel]

Game can't really calculate it either

[pliant rover]

Could do the E storage argument, but then its less of a turtle unit and more of a hit and runner

[sonic cradle]

some times at least

ssome times it's accurate, other times it isn't.

[untold crane]

And you still end up needing spare E to recharge it

[minor kestrel]

iirc it's x60 attacks per listed burst in unit card

which means 33 * 60

[pliant rover]

Mhm.

[minor kestrel]

and is about accurate in real games.

[pliant rover]

Kinda feels like 300 is a bit much

Afaik like 150-200 would be plenty

[minor kestrel]

But yes indeed, Prometheus is by far the most OP unit in t2 legion

[untold crane]

300 spare both accounts for wind dips and for continous fire

[minor kestrel]

per skill required

[pliant rover]

One thing i will say i dislike about legions vehicles is the napalm arty

[untold crane]

it also has 100 less range

and turns its turret slower

anyway

napalm is meh imo

i dont like what it does to the game much

[pliant rover]

Every time someone on my team builds it, i want to just alt f4

🥲

[minor kestrel]

@untold crane probably didn't see it though... despite playing once together 5 months ago

[untold crane]

its not great. It's less of a problem now (they reduced time on ground and buffed dps) but its still not great

[minor kestrel]

AirLTU sure played a lot of it

[minor kestrel]

Anyway not a balance thread. :P

[untold crane]

I can't tell the difference tbh, with your bugfix

[pliant rover]

Hum?

[untold crane]

a lor of what I use normally wasn't affected

[sonic cradle]

I really wish that the tweak boneless made ages ago would get serious consideration

It halved the burn time of napalm puddles but increased the DPS to a bit less than double.
Felt good.

[pliant rover]

Not the point

[untold crane]

At that point it was basically an innaccurate artillery

[minor kestrel]

All over a year ago tho....

[untold crane]

at which point, why not that and not napalm

[pliant rover]

Napalm projectiles are slow, making the unit overlead. If any idiot leaves it on fire at will, it keeps burning my army.

And that makes me tilt

Very hard

🙂

[untold crane]

that's true

[pliant rover]

Played WHAT

[sonic cradle]

it sitll had a burn time of 4 seconds.
And did napalmy things

It just prevented units from placing down napalm puddles ontop of one anotherj.

singular units able to do that even I should clarify.

[untold crane]

games with his tweaks

[minor kestrel]

Oh hell yes I was thinking of playing with same exact tweak enabled :D

[pliant rover]

I do play legion when i can as it fits my playstyle allot better than the other 2 factions, but thats ab it

[minor kestrel]

But it was mostly just a particle spam concern instead of gameplay

[pliant rover]

Ah. Idk never noticed

😄

[minor kestrel]

Hence Belcher taking a biggest hit

[pliant rover]

Belcher was a unit that felt slept on at first, and then became this "man i dont wana make it but i should dedicate APM as i need a equal hound/sheldon answer

[minor kestrel]

community's*
I'm sadly not everpresent :P

Just maining legion

[untold crane]

I just make 2 arqs now instead. More expensive, but does the same job better at longer range without resorting to making the ground painful

[pliant rover]

True

[minor kestrel]

Oh right, the Arquebus, aka the better Sheldon that does everything... is now cheaper after a recent update...

[untold crane]

It is not a better sheldon. it is a worse sharpshooter. These are distinct units, as the sheldon has no E cost to fire, costs 1/4th as much, and is built like twice as fast

[pliant rover]

Honestly, i think legion would be allot better off without napalm mechanics, but rather slow velocity dumb missiles instead

[sonic cradle]

"better sheldon"
looks inside

same DPS per metal cost but costs energy to fire, and has a much larger energy to metal cost ratio than a sheldon

[pliant rover]

Think belcher as a longer range hover rocket launcher

[minor kestrel]

Can kill air with 100% dmg and even walk on walls while being more splash-resilient

[pliant rover]

Would make the units feel usable, while removing the frustration of napalm

[minor kestrel]

Oh

oh

and infinite LoS

[sonic cradle]

...blecher is the T2 bot ykonw.

[untold crane]

...... I'm sorry, but the way your brain works makes no sense to me. on multiple levels

[minor kestrel]

SPIDER THAT SHOOTS AIR!!!

[pliant rover]

I know

[minor kestrel]

with INFINITE LOS

[pliant rover]

I play legion man ik the units more or less except obscure names

[mighty shoal]

Arquebus (`legsrail`)

All-Terrain Heavy Railgun

Faction: Legion
Health: 2'200 hp
Cost: 800 M / 16'000 E / 16'000 B
Speed: 42 / 72 accel / 132° per sec turning
Vision: 700 / 1'050 (air)

Weapons

Railgun
DPS: 125 (750 dmg, 6.00s reload)
Range: 850
Can hit: Air, Boats, Ground

Model by: Tharsis | generated in 17ms | updated every 4 hours

[minor kestrel]

(an exacerbation)

[sonic cradle]

and you are not building them in any good number till you got 2 fusions up at least.

[untold crane]

exaggeration*

not a bm, they just mean different things

[minor kestrel]

Because it's

a kitchen sink sheldon

[untold crane]

no

its just not a sheldon

[minor kestrel]

that's why it has to be more expensive

[untold crane]

the closest thing to it is the sharpshooter, which is better than it at all its jobs except movement

it is not a sheldon

[minor kestrel]

Sharpshooter doesn't have a shootthrough

that railguns do

[sonic cradle]

it really isn't a sheldon.

Sheldons are cheap semi sniper fodder that you ball up.
Arquebus are just snipers. kinda slow, can't fire over one another. can go all terrain, and can also slap air with a decent ammount of threat.

[minor kestrel]

that allows 1 railgun shot to kill multiple units in one line

[untold crane]

sure. Multiple t1 units*

bc t2 is large enough it rarely applies

might work vs fiends reliably, and sprinters. That's about it

it doesn't even affect t1 tanks reliably

[minor kestrel]

You can ball up Arquebus unlike Sharpshooters

[untold crane]

you can not

[minor kestrel]

thanks to their good and slightly forgiving hitboxes

[untold crane]

they do not shoot through themselves. They do shoot between each other, but that's what sharpshooters do

again, sheldons are not like any other unit

nor are arquebuses anything at all like sheldons aside from range

[sonic cradle]

if the belcher had direct damage of any kind, that would be like a sheldon.

[untold crane]

Yes, they have cannons on their heads, not their arms. That helps them shoot between each other, since they have wide bases.

what is your point?

[minor kestrel]

you can ball them up

[untold crane]

Like, you can make a ball of 8 arqs. Only 4-5 of them will shoot

[minor kestrel]

and they will shoot 90% of the time

[untold crane]

that's just incorrect.

realistically you can reliably have 2 ranks of arqs that fire

[minor kestrel]

also,

[untold crane]

and even that isnt guaranteed

how are those aa guns

those look like vents to me

i really don't understand your brain

[minor kestrel]

Exactly like all other aa guns

if you follow legion dev channel

[mighty shoal]

Rhapsis (`legrhapsis`)

Salvo Anti-Air Missile Battery

Faction: Legion
Health: 1'900 hp
Cost: 280 M / 6'500 E / 4'700 B
Vision: 375 / 850 (air)
Energy upkeep: 5 E/sec

Weapons

Advanced g2a Salvo Missile Launcher
DPS: 156 (6x burst, 13 dmg, 0.50s reload)
Range: 840 (16 splash)
Can hit: Air

Model by: ZephyrSkies | generated in 0ms | updated every 4 hours

Lupara (`leglupara`)

Bomb-Resistant Medium-Range Anti-Air Flak Battery

Faction: Legion
Health: 4'000 hp
Cost: 900 M / 8'200 E / 12'500 B
Vision: 380 / 1'000 (air)

Weapons

Medium g2a Flak Blunderbuss
DPS: 283 (2x burst, 255 dmg, 1.80s reload)
Range: 1'125 (150 splash)
Can hit: Air

Model by: ZephyrSkies | generated in 1ms | updated every 4 hours

[minor kestrel]

from like... a few months ago

[untold crane]

??

[mighty shoal]

Pluto (`legflak`)

Anti-Air Minigun

Faction: Legion
Health: 1'750 hp
Cost: 820 M / 13'000 E / 19'000 B
Vision: 525 / 1'000 (air)

Weapons

Heavy Anti-Air Gatling Gun
DPS: 1'084 (3x burst, 60 dmg, 0.17s reload)
Range: 850 (42 splash)
Can hit: Air

Model by: Tharsis | generated in 89ms | updated every 4 hours

[minor kestrel]

where everyone also agreed that aa guns are to have this green outline in them

while riot cannons are sloped

[untold crane]

..... I'm done here lol

[errant sparrow]

I know we're not comparing Sheldon to Arquebus in here

[untold crane]

This would actually be kinda sick, but feels more Cor than legion

[errant sparrow]

Those wimps that you need 15 of to do anything

[untold crane]

But you can actually get 15 of them

[errant sparrow]

vs my beautiful perfect fire support spider

[untold crane]

That you only need 6-8 of

[minor kestrel]

Just look at other units

that have the same AA gun

[untold crane]

There arent any

legion aa is aquilon, lance, and toxotai and charon

all of which have guns

not a tiny fking nozzle embedded chip on their frame

[mighty shoal]

Ultor (`leganavymissileship`)

Missile Cruiser

Faction: Legion
Health: 3'350 hp
Cost: 2'000 M / 10'000 E / 15'000 B
Speed: 61 / 25 accel / 58° per sec turning
Vision: 318 / 478 (air)
Radar: 1'000

Weapons

Anti-Air Salvo Missile Launcher
DPS: 30 (3x burst, 20 dmg, 2.00s reload)
Range: 760 (16 splash)
Can hit: Air

Heavy Long-Range Vertical Salvo Rocket Launcher
DPS: 300 (6x burst, 450 dmg, 9.00s reload)
Range: 1'550 (80 splash)
Can hit: Boats, Ground

Model by: ZephyrSkies | generated in 1ms | updated every 4 hours

[minor kestrel]

Just main legion :P

And use newer unit models

instead of those old ones for turrets you listed above

[untold crane]

im just going to point out that none of those knobs is the actual turret

[minor kestrel]

where this gizmo model actually EXISTED as per laws of time

[untold crane]

literally not one of them

the Ultor is a cruise missile ship ffs

im over it

[minor kestrel]

Yeah... you should play legion instead of arguing with legion mains who also followed the legion development channel :P

[untold crane]

jfc dude youre insufferable

you're looking at a badge and saying that that badge means a unit has aa, when the part that matters is if it has the actual gun

Your brain makes connections that aren't connections

[minor kestrel]

I could also enable the command to show that they have a nice weapon flare to point out how they fire from there, Quite helpful of me sharing knowledge as always :D

[untold crane]

Having toenails doesnt mean its a mammal

the bullets come from the guns you .. w/e. im done. well played. I'll not speak to you again willingly

[minor kestrel]

-# aa missiles, not bullets*
Forgot about Toxotai and Iapetus, they use same gizmo too.

[sonic cradle]

I can't wait to eventually see a match replay where a team manages to regain sea by building in supreme ithmus lake, and building tons and tons of the walking battleships and walking them into the sea to contest it.

[untold crane]

That would be an interesting Eco play, when they could have just made hovers lol

[spice loom]

also the battlehips would be dead before they reas the shore from the flag bombardment

[untold crane]

Is why it would be interesting

you realize you'd need to have like 4 labs churning out BDs constantly to get to shore, with another like 3 labs of just rezbots eating the wreckage in front of the survivors, to get there xD

such an expensive way to do a very not-expensive thing

At that point make Sols

[sonic cradle]

yea but

Ship

the funny

[gilded owl]

@shy galleon #1447323521662455910 message

Legion battleship is uber uber slow on land. It's also vastly weaker than arm or cors battleship

[minor kestrel]

@shy galleon only this #1377226132511916093 message

[shy galleon]

huh decurion got 20 range nerf, I don't think it was op before, if anything, more so good vs average player cause its simple to play and only defendable if you know specific counter.

[tender jewel]

What if i told you denturion was so op, it was only unit built in op rotato when we tried legion, it could push commanders and had basically T1 tiger stats

[tranquil compass]

ya idk what decurion was before(was a bit stronk), but I used it a couple days ago and it is TERRIBLE now

[jade latch]

sounds like it should have 370 range ⚖️

[minor kestrel]

Touching range is very unsmart

it only has like 20% dps at full range anyway

There's no interaction that it would really change other than commander fights

[untold crane]

Again, the problem is that people don't know how to answer it. Mass plasma units or missile units. Stay at max range. Have bp to repair comm if you get outmicrod somehow and need to dgun a few. etc.

[untold crane]

It really is. its a really crummy behe, to the point its ability to walk on land isn't about it being a tank and more like it being a sea turtle that walked onto a beach to finish off a land base befroe going back into the water where it belongs

Literally 1 Pulsar can permanently defend against Scylla incursions lol, that's how slow it is

[tender jewel]

i don't think tourney winners don't know how to answer it

[untold crane]

?

Are you saying the Dec spam lost then>?

bc that's the only way where your sentence makes sense

and that just proves that Dec is not op

...

[shy galleon]

hm legion battleship vs land maybe not as broken vs land as I thought because it has less sieging range but can walk on land to extend it's range.
But question is the sea vs sea battle still diverse (not just gimmick play) even with a weaker sea to sea battleship

[untold crane]

fight lonj 20x and see lol

[gilded owl]

It definitely is weaker, but the fact that's its cheaper means you can gain the momentum earlier. The crusiers are definitely the best ones in the game imo, their single target damage is really good.

But.....if you lose 1 t2 battle against legion it's over. The moment the lrpc ship comes out legion dominates

[tender jewel]

have you considered im implaying you are wrong?

[untold crane]

if that's what you're trying to do, your words did that badly.
If tourney winners won with dec, your sentence has no meaning, because it implies that people don't know the counter to it.
If tourney winners won vs dec as not legion, your sentence has no meaning bc it implies that people know the counter and used it effectively.

[tender jewel]

They had to build denturion cause nothing could stop them

you needed 3-4 mins of kiting tokill them

[gilded owl]

Idk, janus was pretty good at stopping them

[untold crane]

I feel like thats largely true of sea battles in general though. one lost fight means you lose all reclaim and have a much weaker navy for the next battle anyway

[untold crane]

So is rocketbot spam, and thug spam

core veh has a rougher time though for sure

[gilded owl]

By 1 battle i mean letting 1 battleship get killed and reclaimed

[untold crane]

ah?

[gilded owl]

That happens and it's over

Completely

[untold crane]

... so ...
t2 vs t2 leg navy battle. You trade 'even', but lose reclaim on one comparative* BD worth of metal. Now you've lost?

[gilded owl]

Yep, cause that gives you an opening to make the lrpc ship

[untold crane]

huh. the other navy cant make 2 BDs and push with numbers advantage fast enough or what?

[gilded owl]

You can kite the 2 battleship advantage

[untold crane]

i see

cuz the sea range isnt so bad that it loses kiting advantage
Which is good since that means the BD isnt useless at sea, but still

[gilded owl]

You can't kite the legion lrpc ship

[untold crane]

That still makes me think the correct cost of the bombardment ship is just Neptune expense or a bit more. That would probably open up the balance? would a 3 BD advantage be enough you think?

[gilded owl]

It just needs a slower firerate on its secondaries

[untold crane]

/shrug

[gilded owl]

It can keep the same dps, just the shots have to be less continous and hitscan

It needs to struggle to hit anything 1000 range and out

[untold crane]

hm. What if its artillery fired all at the same time, with shotgun bursts from both barrels per turret, rather than as single shots? you'd get target saturation in a different way without compromising anything just by doing that

That's just a random thought I just had, but idk if it has value

[gilded owl]

Boneless said that it was against the unit design :/

I would love to have it burst tho

But its 3 independent weapons

[untold crane]

mm

Ya idk then. Maybe the answer is to subtly adjust Core and Arm navies to be more viable instead. Who knows, maybe Arm navy will matter again afterwards lol

[gilded owl]

Arm navy is good, it's just more micro intensive cause it's cheaper

[untold crane]

fair. I dont know enough about navies to talk much beyond what I've tried out with legion so far, so im mostly parroting words I've heard elsewhere at that point tbh

[lusty radish]

I struggle with early legion unit composition especially in 1v1, I feel like T1 bots are very weak and there's no direct match for plasma bots, and with vehicles there's no direct match for medium tanks - they will just drive around your decurions and chew through helions

I also feel like T2 bots are much stronger than T2 vehicles for legion, so my usual gameplan is starting vehicles and surviving long enough to rush mass phalanx

phobos karkinos and ballista feel really good and I like them a lot, I feel like phobos is kind of a blitz equivalent but for bots, but I'm really not sure how I'm supposed to fight mass thug/brute

but I can't figure out how to use the smaller T1 bots at all, it just feels like they're not good against anything

[sonic cradle]

Bots
T1
strategy:
Extremely high aggression, capture as many mexes as you can as fast as you can.
Goblins to do early raids like they're ticks but a bit bulkier, you should be able to build a small base raiding force before the enemy get's any decent number of grunts or pawns out, both of which you can micromanage and kite
as the game continues in the T1 phase you should be switching to primarily the Satyr as a mixture of a plasma bot and what you'd use a grunt/pawn for. it's going to be your main frontline fighting skirmisher for a while. Cheap, spammable. Low health makes them less viable as something you resurect and repair to keep on the front like you might the thug/mace. reclaim and rebuild is often a better situation.
Satyrs will start to hit diminishing returns as the enemy spams their own thugs or maces, support with ballistas to help bridge the gap.
eventually you might be able to afford a few Karkinos which you can use in conjunction with other units like ballista, satyr, and goblins to push and control the field.

Note: while I personally say you should phase out goblins, they can still be useful. THey're cheap and spammable, literally about as cheap as ticks but with a lot more health. They can be easily viable all throughout tier 1 but require very good micromanaging. Satyr and other units are more forgiving by comparison.

With reguards to the phobos specifically. The phobos is a very good unit, BUT suffers from a short ranged weapon, making it kinda not the best option for fighting on the frontline.
Rather the phobos is best used in about.. 2-3 main roles.

The first of which
Rapid response unit. it's very fast and you can keep a few back to respond to leaks like ticks or other units that push past the front line in ways you don't expect or weren't prepared for.
Secondly, they are good for base raiding. Either by finding undefended flank routes or taking advantage of holes you punch in the front you can send groups around into the enemy base, destroying factories and eco. they have the speed and health to do so, and their weapon DPS is respectable. they just lack range so they frequently fail to make those openings themselves.

[lusty radish]

I will try more goblin/satire for early game, i was really sleeping on those.

And what to do if opponent starts vehicle, or transitions vehicle at minute 8? While I can usually live through pawn/grunt phase, the moment any tanks arrive there's just no bot that can catch up and give a direct response. From my experience, alaris is extremely OP for light tank phase, but again, the moment medium tanks hit the field I just lose ground

[sonic cradle]

are you asking in terms of vehicle vs vehicle or bots vs vehicle as the legion player?

[lusty radish]

just whatever could work against brutes

[sonic cradle]

Well as a bot using player, you'll struggle.
all factions do, not just legion.

Well, if they start to use brutes in any signifigant number the only real play I see is a combination of Satyrs and Ballista. Since both out range the brute, and satyrs are cheap and replacable and ballista can skirmish well like any rocket bot.
Maybe a couple karkinos a bit behind the line to punish them if they try to push directly into you and get too aggressive.

Vehicles are a much easier situation though since the Decurion will absolutely punish any player who does not respect it's space. Decurion has poor accuracy and thus DPS near the edge of it's range but players have a bad habbit of getting too close to it and take it's very good closer range DPS
Decurions, laces....... maybe a barrage? maybe? idk napalm is.. I don't use it basically.
You'll also still probably be using some Helios though, it's a good quality vehicle all and all but you'll need the other two ,decurion and lance to push through brute spam.

[lusty radish]

yea see while all of this can work against brutes, the brute will always outmanuever because its faster that anything there is for legion

of course decurion ball will shred a brute ball

but brutes are twice as fast

[sonic cradle]

yes
which is why you have to be aggressive.
That brute ball isn't doing much good if your decurion ball (should be a wall btw, direct fire weapon, doesn't ball well) is rolling it's way into their base towards their commander.

it's legion's thing really. aggression.
take the most mexes. take as much spac as possible. expand as fast as possible.
Then sure up your defenses and hold your gains.
Filling up good quality mex spots with overcharged mexes and putting out slower but better units like Decurion and ballista.

[lusty radish]

I will test this aggressive approach out, though I can already imagine a situation where while my decurion wall is slowly approaching the enemy base, the opponent's brute ball is already in my base, since brutes are cheaper and faster to roll out too

I also don't see an easy porc option for legion against tanks, like what a flamethrower tower or a beamer would be, something that can at least try to deter the brutes

Can you recommend some legion 1v1 players to watch their replays?

[sonic cradle]

I unfortunately do not have any recommendations for 1v1 players with legion.

Porc though
the Dragon's Jaw is actually surprisingly good
like sure it's no flamethrower but it sitll has 120 DPS and considerable impulse such that it can sitll stun the movement of brutes

that combined with the hive actually does a pretty good job.

[lusty radish]

ugh, compared to ~200 dps for arm anti swarm and >300 dps for flamethrower? I didnt like it at all

hive is amazing tho

I guess it's easier to have some karkinos at home instead of riot turrets

[sonic cradle]

the cannon has a splash radius of 140, 90% edge effectiveness (still does 90% of it's damage even if the mere edge of the blast touches a unit), and the impluse can stop a brute in it's place.

[lusty radish]

it sounds like a static pounder

[sonic cradle]

basically kinda is I suppose.

checking the stats compared to a pounder directly, it's actually better in nearly every reguard.

[lusty radish]

what do you use to check legion units stats?

[sonic cradle]

https://legionwiki.info/
https://gex.honu.pw/unit/

gex is a nice lil comparison tool that also gives more specific stats
And the legion wiki is well, the wiki. lets you know what options exist and gives you the basics.

though it hasn't been updated with seaplanes or T2 sea yet

the wiki

[lusty radish]

thank you very much, do you play legion 1v1 yourself?

[sonic cradle]

Small teams mostly, but most of what i've said should apply in general.
Just, more punishing in 1v1 if you fail or loose a fight.

[lusty radish]

I just wanted to play you some time if you do

[untold crane]

Cacophony with some rezbot support (if bots) or nanos (if veh) is very good at pushing back brute/stout. Add a hive or two to get flank damage behind it and it's very good, especially as it lives long enough to become a laser beam. Pair with Dragon's Jaw for anti-aoe for best results though.

Also a good thing to think about- Legion can Omex its backline mexes. If you do, you can actually afford to give up some space temporarily if you're building up an appropriate reclamation army

[sonic cradle]

oh yea, Cacophany with high veterancy becomes a huge threat lmao

[lusty radish]

you can drop these with a transport too...

[untold crane]

indeed. Though I think Cacophony may require heavy trans if it can be moved at all.

Also, if you go bots as legion, your style of play should evolve -> Aggressive scouting/damage/territory contesting -> identify defensible locations you can actually hold if pressured and add light defenses there -> spar for openings->as eco ramps consider using Omexes to get to more unit production (not better units) -> Slowly build an army behind your lines as you continue to reinforce your frontage -> if necessary, pull back units and give up space, building units that counter whatever is pushing you - kark/satyr/balista as bots vs veh or bot, adding rezbots as necessary, or helios/dec/lance as veh vs veh, or barrage/helios/lance to fight veh vs bot (napalm effectively counters rezbot strats)

Also having a pack of 5 phobos/10 alaris just available to work with helps a lot, since theyre both very fast units with remarkably high dps for their costs, even if the range is a bit low. Just thread around threats and go for windmill/mex kills as possible, remembering to kill LLTS only when you still have your full pack of units.

[lusty radish]

I see, I was kinda just ignoring satyrs and Omexes completely, but I will try to add them now

really I think the only thing that could beat brutes is scouting them earlier than I do

[untold crane]

No matter what the map or position, having at least 1 Omex as soon as possible (needs full E Storage and aroudn 150 e production) will help you maintain metal parity with arm/core opponents

[sonic cradle]

the ideal situation is you put your Omex on a spot that gives a lot more metal than the rest.

but the frequent situation is that you'll be building 1-3 from your base's starting mexes.

[lusty radish]

I see, when I did go for Omexes I was trying to spam ugrade them as if it was T2

[untold crane]

Ya technically karkinos counters brute/stout, but it also has much less mobility, so its more of a hold-the-line unit than a rapid responder

like if a handful of brute/stout jumps on top of karkinos, its a bad time for them. But if they're not dumb they just sidestep or hang out at max range lol

[sonic cradle]

Yea you shouldn't do that. They cost a decent bit and their energy upkeep can be quite a lot to keep up with if you build a ton of them.

[lusty radish]

seeing now how it's 30m more than a decurion AND slower, nah

[sonic cradle]

though it is worth mentioning that by building an omex, you technically reduce the cost of the T2 mex you place ontop of it.
Since, you get like... a metal refund for how much the omex was worth compared to the T2 mex.

[untold crane]

You build it to be a wall. It's very good at that. 5 Karks and 40 Satyrs is basically a Thugwalk, especially if you add goblin spam to it with a pack of like 3-5 rezbots

[lusty radish]

with how cheap labs are, I'l probably try a decurion wall with bots behind it

or like a decurion+karkinos wall

[untold crane]

1 on base mexes is always 'ok', and getting up to 3 before t2 transition is also 'fine' if you're maintaining equilibrium with opp. But otherwise just place on super mexes.

[untold crane]

at that point just spam 1:1 dec/lance. And keep the botlab purely for rezbots

Its very difficult for anything t1 to fight a sufficiently large blob of lances behind a sufficiently dense wall of decurians

[lusty radish]

yea lances I literally ignored too because I always found them underwhelming in terms of damage and too expensive

[untold crane]

Janus and rocketbots can pick at the Dec wall, but if you have lances behind (takes 3 to get kills on rocketbots regardless of veterency, and i think 5 to kill a janus?) it becomes painful to do it.
If playing vs legion, you counter that by just making a pack of helios and flanking. As arm/cor you do the same with light tanks, but you need a few more than you'd expect to get it done well

[untold crane]

lances are hitscanning stunbeams that shoot land and air. Theyre not terribly high damage/shot bc of that, but they're actually better than missile trucks, which is their analogue --which is why they only get to shoot ground units if theyre in front of them lol

[sonic cradle]

lances can be used defensively very well.
Dragonsteeth can protect them decently well, and their gun has the height to shoot over them.

Though in terms of raw damage you aren't wrong to think that because well... the lance and missile trucks all have considerably low damage.

the lance just packs that damage into singular shots with longer reloads compared to the armada and cortex missile trucsk.

[lusty radish]

hmm maybe 240 metal is not that much? I'll definitely try them out with decurions

thank you for tips I will share with you if I get results with this, though I haven't played in a while now and I'm very rusty

the LOS on lances seems terrible though, and even with scouts you don't get full coverage for their range

[sonic cradle]

oh, check their actual range on gex.
they have a longer AA range than they do ground target range.

[lusty radish]

525 LOS with 648 range

[sonic cradle]

checking rn actually
Their ground targeting Railgun weapon has a range of 650

but I mean it's not that uncommon for sniper units to not have enough LOS to fully use their weapon range.
Lance isn't unique there.
Just have to rely on radar and or scouts... maybe some drones.

[tranquil compass]

legion

[untold crane]

@oak silo Discuss your naval grievances here.

Overall, riptides beat the torpedo frigates slightly, but since legion can open with a submarine and send it out pre min 1, if you keep that alive in tandem with your frig followup you beat riptides by a small margin. This then forces enemy into DD production, (usually), but if you have reclaim fields you can eat and build Omexes along with your own DDs, so it's kinda more-or-less the same overall flow of unit production as with arm/cor, except you build your antisub with frigs

You do need to make your DDs with more focus than Cor does, since your DDs are your best antiship tool in the basket, but still

[oak silo]

But Legion destroyers fail to deal it's "stated damage" or dps to their targets if they are moving thought, i feel that's an aiming issue on their code thou.

It's even more pronounced on ground targets

[untold crane]

Its not an aiming issue. Their turrets dont turn while firing, just as the helios and pharos and comm don't. Bc t1 heatray consistency.

The answer is to target fire enemies that are clustered, since hitting those means that any damage lost still hits something else.
Also, the DD, being a beam weapon, does more damage the closer you are to them. Where it also happens to miss less. So there's that

[oak silo]

Oooh, I thought they did, damn.

I think the not aiming while firing is more noticable the longer the range on the heat weapon is, since the destroyer has quite some range

So it misses much more consistently at his further range

[untold crane]

Yes. Also, since you get free poke damage, this help balance out the amount of damage you're getting that can't be outmicro'd much

[minor kestrel]

No it's instead just more noticeable the faster the owner of this weapon moves.

Syracusia has the most AoE among all DDs by a long margin.

...and as mentioned, Argonauts will chew through underwater.

For a very fair cost compared to Ellysaws.

Like genuinely, please let's talk more about the comparison of Argonaut to Ellysaw, @oak silo

I wanna hear opinions too! :D

[oak silo]

Free poke but what's the dmg, I've seen it miss more than a tremor in some scenarios, even while firing at land units

It doesn't miss that much if it's stationary, but you can't "poke" if you're not moving at all

[oak silo]

I want to call both units stats with the bot on discord, but idk how to use it to bring the wiki pages here.

but also idk if the wiki is up-to-date anyway

Tomorrow we shall debate that, I'm most certainly interested in bringing fair balance to the new units, but would love to get more test involved

[gilded owl]

It doesn't miss ships that often ime

[minor kestrel]

I find Argonaut exceptionally useful unit to have and spam absentmindedly. Especially after it no longer friendlyfires.

It has a Sonar!

Quite powerful one too.

[gilded owl]

To snipe mexs and be op

[minor kestrel]

Very dangerous to any submersible

[gilded owl]

Legion rn is best navy

[shy galleon]

seem like riptide kind of bully argo, but argo should be fine into ellysaw

argo oppressive against subs

[gilded owl]

Ngl I feel like argos are much superior in the kiting battles

Because their torps can go out of their range while chasing before you break them off

[minor kestrel]

I don't like taking vanilla Riptide into account, it's a bit OP for humanfactor...
Meanwhile Ellysaw has to play around inability of it's front turret to fire backwards, as well as it's inability to fire over other Ellysaws or any other allied ships when clumped close together and the target is not at a maximum firing range to arc over.
If I am to take Riptide into account then only the 115dps one, not 120dps.

[minor kestrel]

But yes, that's totally right, a great point.

although due to their targeting setup they will often miss fast moving singular small targets at long range, but I mean, plasma ships would too, even if only less often.

[gilded owl]

In before "torps are homing" lol

[minor kestrel]

baaaaaarely homing vs surface targets.
It however starts using an alternative weapon when the target is in it's lower quarter, which has fairly better homing.

e.g. usually vs submersibles at a slightly closer range

[gilded owl]

I noticed they were much better against subs too

[untold crane]

Has anyone tried target fire micro on retreat with Argos? They seem to travel further than riptide shots do

[gilded owl]

How can phalanx 1v1 bulls and win

[untold crane]

cuz armor

if armor is dead they lose quite quickly

[split kite]

Feels like this energy: https://youtube.com/shorts/2CXbgVE_-SE?si=i062pQzudQKflevx@cocoapuffs411

[untold crane]

I mean, Triton costs more though. By like 20%.

And is a t2 unit.

Its basically a t1.5 frigate

but it costs like it's one too

/shrug

[oak silo]

If it didn't have then it's torpedo launcher would be a joke on it if, if it can't see under-w xD

But for it's price considering it can't attack ground and it's torpedoes miss a lot on moving targets too idk

Sorry I'm back

[split kite]

Im saying this is a stupid ass video. Unmicro destroyer loses to legion tank boat when it drives into its face and sits there.

Phalanx loses to bulls if the bulls move.

[oak silo]

Late 😔

[errant sparrow]

Inputting any unit commands OP broken

[gilded owl]

Well, the bulls were trying to kite but then the phalanx got a shot off and stunned them :/

2 phalanx vs 2 bulls on tartar

And it's only 10 more speed

[untold crane]

RC is good at not caring much about micro. Retreat micro is really where things go in favor of frig/bull/etc, but anyway. Phalanx has an effective hp of something like 5.5k with shield active, which drops to something like 1.5k when shield breaks (accounting for damage done while shield was still active). so the first half dozen or so shots from a bull won't phase them much, but the latter half dozen absolutely will

[gilded owl]

I'm just saying what I fought with, 2 phalanx killed 2 microed full health bulls

[untold crane]

interacting with units that have reactive armor requires you to know which units have that armor (kark, phalanx, Telchine), about how much hp those armors have (600, 1800, 2400 i think?), and how to fight them

[untold crane]

yes. when fighting units with reactive armor, you need a larger critical mass of units, or you need a long range skirmisher. Phalanxes counter t1, and t2 assault/raiders. That's what they're for.

From my perspective you are complaining to me that a centurion beats a thug

[gilded owl]

They shouldn't be able to kill kill twice their metal worth of assault tanks on a flat map

[untold crane]

If the bulls are used intelligently, they dont though

/shrug

[gilded owl]

They were kiting

40 os player too

[untold crane]

... youre not changing how math works. to put it this way, 5 bulls beats 5 phalanxes, unless each is in a 1v1 for some reason

[gilded owl]

Dude, you can't beat actual hard facts

[untold crane]

1 phalanx beats 1 bull. 5 bulls has enough hp and damage to crush shield in one shot, then crush the unit.

[gilded owl]

I killed 2 kiting bulls with 2 phalanxs

That should not happen

At all

[untold crane]

im not arguing against you. I am describing the limits of the unit

if you want to kill phalanxes, you need to do roughly 600 damage after a reduction to 33% of actual damage, in roughly 3 seconds at most (from the perspective of t2 unit general matchup stats like hp/range/etc)

[gilded owl]

Especially when the terrain favors tanks

[untold crane]

i mean. how to put this.
If you play on ATG with bots in mid as legion, you get phalanxes up, and hold your line surprisingly well vs an opp that went tanks and teched at about the same time you did

For about 5 minutes

And then get crushed flat by mass assault tank + sniper tank, w/e that happens to be

[gilded owl]

Why are you putting hypotheticals in this

[untold crane]

That isnt a hypothetical

idk why you think im theorycrafting, but that's my legit experience

[gilded owl]

Phalanx needs a nerf

[untold crane]

Legion t2 bots actually has a slight advantage over arm/cor veh in early t2 stage, purely bc of how phalanx infestor works as an army comp

And then gets wiped after lettign enemy veh comp get out of hand

bc phalanx is good in small numbers vs assault stuff, and bad in any numbers vs lots of assault stuff. Because it has 'fake' hp, basically

Phalanx probably actually doesn't. I'd argue that welder and sumo need small buffs, actually

[gilded owl]

No it's too good

I know how it works, it's way too good for it's cost point

[untold crane]

no it isnt lmao

[gilded owl]

Yea it is

[untold crane]

nu uh

[gilded owl]

Yuh uh

[untold crane]

when i say that, i mean that it is literally the focal point of the entirety of the legion t2 botlab balance

[gilded owl]

It kills all t1 and basically every t2 unit out there

[untold crane]

every other t2 bot exists as it does specifically bc the phalanx is what it is

[gilded owl]

For only 450 metal

[untold crane]

and legion t2 still sucks compared to arm/core lol

like idk what you want

[gilded owl]

It needs a speed nerf

[untold crane]

make the bad lab worse?

nerf sumos

nerf sprinters

too op

[gilded owl]

Thats your argument?

"Oh so every unit in the lab sucks except this one giga op unit"

Thats not how balancing works :/

[untold crane]

I don't understand how to explain to you in a better way than that tbh. Like. Arq has its stats bc it is expected that you have phalanxes protecting it. Incinerator is what it is because it is expected you have phalanxes. Thanatos. All the iconic legion bots are balanced around being in a comp with phalanxes.
Beyond that, phalanxes are very decidedly not op. They just don't operate in the constraints you want to expect.
Why should bots always lose to equal metal of equivalent vehicles?

[gilded owl]

Bots should lose to equal metal of equivalent vehicles because they are way more mobile than them.

[untold crane]

again, 5 bulls DOES beat 5 phalanxes

[untold crane]

does mobility matter if you can't capitalize on it

Goblins are more mobile than bulls. Goblins should never beat bulls though

Phalanx and Goblin are not the same unit

[gilded owl]

Exactly my point

[untold crane]

Phalanx is an upgraded karkinos, and the karkinos is a wall that moves. The threat a karkinos is expected to fight is mass grunt/pawn, some thug/cent, mostly rockets. It is durable af for a t1 unit, at 1700 hp. And it does almost nothing by itself.

[gilded owl]

You can't capitalize on a bots mobility on a open flat map

[untold crane]

Phalanx, in the context of t2, is a better kark. It actually is an assault bot. Yet it still suffers from the same problem Kark does in the context of t2.

[gilded owl]

Because there is nothing hindering a vehicles greater range + firepower

[untold crane]

Kark can beat a pounder and a janus if they get in shotgun range.

If you get 3 janus/pounder though, they wipe the kark for free

or 3 karks

it isnt a contest

its literally the same logic

applied to t2 vs t2

[gilded owl]

Ok

[untold crane]

idk it feels like im talking to someone who is bad at BAR whining about Decurions with this conversation tbh. No offense intended. It's just a very clear overestimation of how good the unit is.
The critical mass of a phalanx is 1. The critical mass of Bulls is more like 5. That's really all it comes down to

[gilded owl]

It feels like I'm talking to a legion fanboy that can't see the faults in legion no offense

[untold crane]

I do see the faults. I've also actually played the faction almost exclusively, and almost exclusively vs players 10-30 os better than myself.

Your complaints are usually not something I argue much about, but nerfing the phalanx literally cripples the t2 bot lab.

[gilded owl]

But that's a problem for other units

You balance for the unit, not the lab

[untold crane]

I'd argue the following at best:
If the phalanx get nerfed, every other unit in the t2 lab needs a buff to compensate

I will absolutely die on that hill

[gilded owl]

They already need a buff

[untold crane]

literally the only thing making the t2 lab playable is the phalanx though

[gilded owl]

Most of the other units are so ass idk how to buff them

[untold crane]

arq gets 100 more range, is done with just that. Thanatos gets like 20 more damage per rocket or something.
Incinerator gets 1k hp.
Infestor gets .... something. idk what I'd give it. Can't be bp or it replaces con turrets like butlers do

Hoplite is actually the one unit I'd say is probably fine on its own in the lab, but it's also not meant to be a part of a comp from the lab, so it makes sense

[agile rose]

bp cost reduction? would make them able to actually duplicate themselves without making them better cons

[untold crane]

Honestly fair

[vast frost]

palantir drones (martyrs) are fun and a great earlygame way to knock enemy air out if you delete their entire airforce

(also a great way to delete clumps of stuff)

[untold crane]

They do x4 bomber bomblet damage, in a concentrated spot. So yes, kinda. They also explode if they're tickled, and chain explode if they are near each other, so it DOES require there be almost no existent AA to work.
Generally speaking, mosquitos are much better

[agile rose]

they also become useless against anything other structures, commanders, and <insert your mom joke here> because those can step aside

[vast frost]

technically yeah but if you play smart youll spread them out in a area as much as possible

[pliant rover]

Kark + Satyr is very strong combo on more chokepointy areas. Satyr fires over Kark and has enoguh range to use it, while kark can tank

Currently using 5 -1 ratio

[vast frost]

im a firm believer in only satyr spam

send the children to the front

karks are too boring

[pliant rover]

Not as good as you would think. Tried it

Satyrs need a tank player

[vast frost]

i mean i usually play air/vehicle nowadays more than bots

only cases i really use bots is eco

a highly evil t2 strat is combine a billion thanatoses with a line or 2 of sumos (requires a cort player or a cort bot con)

same thing you said but even more destructive

like

with good micro 8 thanatoses can lock down areas from smaller navies

actually

replace sumo with phalanx

the phalanx is the most fair and balanced™ unit to wander around ever

[vast frost]

and in all fairness they can tank 1 hit from light AA

[pliant rover]

Im still curious if lance can shoot over decurion

[untold crane]

Thanatos is just a catapult divided by 10. So yes, en masse is quite good. At that point you also have put 7.5k metal into units though, so it probably should feel strong.

As for phalanx, they lose to burst damage more than sustained damage. Yhey are countered by heavy hits while tickled by constant ones. Though you should use smaller hits to finish off their shields, you dont know what enemy shield status is, so just go for sniper units to counter them

[vast frost]

it can im 99% sure

[pliant rover]

Noone answered and didnt have time to test

[vast frost]

the lance is hella tall so 99% sure it can

but decurions are all you need

[pliant rover]

No no

I have a idea

And it wil happen

:))))

[untold crane]

Dec wall is wide and short. Lance wall is long and tall. Bunched up lances fire over each other and decs (up to ranks of 2 for lances)

[untold crane]

This is false. Lances counter the decurion counters.

[vast frost]

fair

[pliant rover]

Decurion microd to show side profile would make a nice mobile wall

[vast frost]

i mean i use the napalm fellas

[untold crane]

You should do that too

[vast frost]

because napalm spam turns any chokepoint into literal hell

[untold crane]

From a gameplay pov napalm is toxic, but it wont be changed until the abuse becomes obviously too strong

[vast frost]

i mean

before the phoenix

the legion bomber had napalm

[pliant rover]

Napalm needs to go ihmo

[untold crane]

Napalm is worse than it used to be

[vast frost]

and as someone who played zk alot before bar

napalm bombers are horrifying

[untold crane]

But it is still a Bad Idea

[pliant rover]

Yeh.

[untold crane]

It literally punishes interaction

[pliant rover]

So what im thinking for legion...
2 dec to 1 lance

[untold crane]

Other way around

Tbh im starting to do something like a quota of 5 Dec into 20 lances

Its disgustingly hard to respond to

[pliant rover]

I want more decurions in my rotation

More expensive, but it also punishes spam way harder

And also provides more options

Better cover also

[vast frost]

decurions in general are very balanced

the alaris is a good sidegrade tho

[untold crane]

Not really about that. Beyond 5 decs you dont often have them all shooting. So the extras become replacements

[pliant rover]

Alaris is fantastic ya

[vast frost]

earlygame rush into enemy base with alaris to mildly inconvenience them is a mandatory strat

[pliant rover]

Doesnt have to fire if it applies pressure to claim areas easier or can be sent to support team

[untold crane]

Alaris is such a good grubt/pawn counter actually

[vast frost]

pawn counter is called barrage/decurion battle line

[pliant rover]

Tell me you main glitters without telling me you main glitters

Smh

[vast frost]

quite the opposite

[untold crane]

Like 1v1 in constant fire alaris is destroyed, but if you make like 4 and just rush in then get out, you lose one alaris and kill 2 grunt/pawn, its also kinda imba

[vast frost]

i prefer isthmus over glitters by a long shot

napalm on glitters REEKS outside of canyon

[pliant rover]

Same thing lol. Lane map

[vast frost]

meanwhile isthmus is just one singular chokepoint which i can lockdown with napalm

[untold crane]

Barrage is anti lane interaction unit. Dec/lance is slow wall of death. Alaris wheelie is 5 blind bandits and a seeing eye dog

[minor kestrel]

Should play Folsom Dam instead. It is the map for vertical arty and napalm units.

[errant sparrow]

Watched someone ssllooowwwlllyyy walk their Scyllas over to other sea on SI and dudes you can literally eat them and send the M and it is faster

[shy galleon]

that's got to be an exaggeration lol

paying the e cost and double the bp cost gotta be shit

Assuming you can win the sea, SI is good for legion because the battleships can get a lot of value

if enemy gets cor bats out then its a bit of a problem tho

[errant sparrow]

Idk that was pretty painful. If they're needed, like other sea is actually in collapse, I don't think you'll ever, ever reach in time

I guess the scenario was (1) metal drought in the first place (2) enough BP for cove to eat (3) enough BP for beach sea to make T1 with what they're given