#Glitters CO-OP builds and counters

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twilit summit
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Since the debates regarding co-op (I use the term for resource + building sharing from multiple players to one, etc, not actually cooperating between players on the battlefield), there's been some co-op tries on All That Glitters map, which was "traditionally" the map with the least amount of resource sharing. The non-co-op way to play kind of became the Glitters meta to some extent, and trying co-op on the map often results in a dead lobby after the game and just a lot of backlash and negative input from players.

Since co-op is (still) part of the game in the above mentioned extent, I'd like to open this thread to share your co-op builds, co-op strats that work and the counters or effective plays VS co-op that you noticed. I believe the only way forward in this meta stand-still is to share the knowledge and discover what's counterable and what is really overpowered.

steep verge
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how much you see commie on glitters and is it accepted among top players?

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glitters has frontline to worry about in t1 but in t2 the whole front can/should be supplied by 1 t2 lab. obviously slinging for t2 units is effective

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the additional bp/metal also helps in defending the forward lab

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more con turret = more reactionary bp and repair on porc

thorny dirge
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top players don't like coop at all, the ones doing coop are basically all sub-40os

steep verge
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On straits, of players that are >35 at up, it seems like 25% are fine with commie AND do it sometimes (not often because there is a lot of pushback), 25% are neutral/dont mind it, and 50% say it's broken or hate it

twilit summit
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My experience, trying commie stuff with friends, is pretty bad. It starts with simply joining the lobby and the dodge ballet begins. When teams are finally formed, sometimes people leave at the start of the match when the see the commander placements or strategy talk, and after games it's often hard to start another one in due time. Sometimes an alternate OP glitters forms, but mostly you just read a LOT of verbal vomit.

But this is beside the point IMO. The point is that Glitters doesn't accept commie well, maybe the worst compared to supreme and rotato experiences. Although I think it isn't just commie per se but a problem of larger parties. We play in party of 3 (common) or 4 or even 5 (rare), which is generally frowned uppon, compounded by commie strats.

More importantly, I think commie will continue, if not with our party than some other. I'm more interested in which commie strat poses the biggest issues for players, how they approach countering it, etc. Maybe at some point there will be modoptions to mitigate it, but for now, the wisest thing is to understand it and talk about it in terms of options IMO

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Regarding the builds, it's mostly tech + corner commie, as they can both afford commiting to a fast t2 units and supporting the front with them

steep verge
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Commie just like normal play is very reliant on the build, and micro of the driver

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I think even simple meta commie builds have not been optimized nearly as much as single player builds, so commie is not even showing its full strength

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Way more hours Have been put into optimizing solo builds

inland yarrow
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The prevalence of commie strats is a big reason why I don't play glitters. Rainbow con turret gaming is....not a great time if it's not raining on your team...

twilit summit
steep verge
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Rainbow t2 is midgame commie / metal sling it's all the same

inland yarrow
steep verge
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Rainbow turret is just one way of doing it

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You can do same thing by feeding them metal and e structure and giving the nanos

twilit summit
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All i'm saying is it's not considered a problem, as it's been there for ages. The perceived (!) problem is 2 bases for 1 player but split roles

inland yarrow
steep verge
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Basically the instant t1 units are not high return to make you funnel to t2 lab

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And t2 units

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SI has the same thing

inland yarrow
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Not a problem? It kills the lobby half the time. Nah

steep verge
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Pond and front sling their gained metal to geo

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I think it's brutal as it makes stacking front very hard to beat

inland yarrow
steep verge
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Cause now their geo simply has enough resources to do everything at once even if their build is mediocre

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And if it's even front, well accelerating t2 cons and more t2 units is just better

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As for what to do vs commie

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Since build matters a lot probably it's best to just develop a safe general purpose commie and execute it better than them

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Otherwise you want to see if there's a commie counter build

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Such as commie t1 bombing or some extreme t1 aggression all in. Frontish commie t2 lab is so important the enemy entire team of 7-8 players should abandon their lane/eco greed to focus it down.

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You can try and 1 bomber the battery's winds but they should spread their winds (commie usually trying to end the game within 15 minutes), no need to play for the late game

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Leak is not bad too but jags are the best leak response in the game

thorny dirge
steep verge
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oh lastly, if the unit has a natural counter you can just commie the counter units

thorny dirge
steep verge
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looking on bar stats in the 100 most plp I played with on SI in last 4 months, i only see about ~7 plp who sometimes full commie (not counting commie'ing in retaliation for previous game). There's a fair bit more people who ask for heavy boost in t1 phase (>4 winds) or do heavy slinging in t2 phase, but that's not widely considered commie even though it's functionally similiar.

It's not popular, cause many people will shit on you/complain in VC for it, and it tends to kill lobbies.
a) someone gets crushed in 2-6 minutes from the commie'd unit unless ally team is also commie
b) people are forced to play commie in response which they don't prefer/enjoy as much (maybe they prefer familiar game flow, or maybe they dislike commie for gameplay reasons)
c) slower sea lanes become irrelevant or have to deal with super early nuke bomber

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personally i don't find commie satisfiying to win with, because it's just not fair unless both side are commie'ing (the side who has practiced it a few times will be at a big advantage, assuming teammates even react)

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and it puts a huge responsibility and stress on the driver. Commie builds are harder to execute than normal builds b/c they are more bp / more units / faster / 2 coms.

inland yarrow
twilit summit
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Regarding commied builds on Glitters, we mostly try gunslingers rush or banisher rush. In my experience, fast snipers deal with that semi well, its dependant a lot on other factors (how good micro is, is there support from other players on front...)

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Tech build transitions into t2 cons for the team, meaning corner spot becomes the microer for said units and at the same time lane support for mid frontline

glossy viper
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Coop is more vulnerable than solo play, just is no special counter that can exploit that? (Can deal with by ex. sniping Coop lab, but that's not exactly a reliable solution)

steep verge
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Overall it's less vulnerable cause techer has more bp more m/e faster t2 units, less time in transition.

gloomy flume
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Coop glitters players suck. They make 4 min gun slinger then you build 1 Beamer and they just stand there stun locked

thorny dirge
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If they made gunslingers that wouldn't be a problem. But they make 5 minute banishers and mausers, which is a problem.

dawn copper
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I think correctly executed coop banisher is out at about 4:15.

twilit summit
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I think slingers cause the most quick wins as they can collapse lanes very very fast. Rushed sniper works well to deter it from that lane

twilit summit
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it's come to the point where i get chain-kickbanned even if i don't commie. just by association and past commie xD

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kinda sucks tho, can't even spec OP glitters anymore

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I think one temp solution to this commie "problem" is simply putting it in the lobby NAME. Just signify if you allow or kick. Because getting KB without ever communicating that you don't wanna see this play is bad IMO

steep verge
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see how unnatural the lobby is
that there is a divide between how the game makes optimal and how people enjoy playing?

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split by lobby name (and in the future modotion) makes the most sense imo

twilit summit
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yeah, agree. it's gonna be a struggle, but i'm interested in solutions now, before major change. either learning it or naming the lobby properly or what else?

steep verge
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plp will wany to try commie lobby some of the time

hearty widget
steep verge
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you can even just t1 commie

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the idea is you are skipping a lab cost and making winds in back to let you two collectively gain more of an advantage on the field

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probably you give some ticks and 1 con to backliner

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be it winning mid, being able to scale up bp without being e gated

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it's less dramatic as t2 rush commie but still strong

twilit summit
# hearty widget You seem to have quite a bit of experience executing commie builds. Do you care...

What you basically do (i'm really not the creator of those builds though, my friends are) is spawn two players as tech + corner near tech.

Tech takes their mexes and goes straight into t2 lab as fast as possible, while making 0 energy, while corner builds up energy for tech. This allows tech to skip E production, and with it, time to build all that, meaning you first t2 unit is out very fast.

How much E the corner has to make and in what order is deoendant on which unit you wanna rush out. Study unit E requirement to adjust more or less E. Your goals is to NOT overbuild E.

That's about it for every possible unit you wanna rush out. Sometimes t2 unit can close games, but more often the game will go on into midgame and lategame, so your goal as a t2 rusher is to think about t2 cons for the team and building up more E to sustain you t2 mexes etc. The corner player can micro the units while you as techer fine tune your build to continue as a tech player.

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I found snipers to be one of the best responses, but also banishers. Depends what unit you encounter. Often the best strat is to keep calm, move units back so you dont lose them, prepare a trap / pounce on t2 unit.

steep verge
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I'm sure the answer is a forward t2 lab

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1st on the team

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Make a bunch of quakers win like 3 lanes

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Why make a t2 con + mex when you can just take 2 mexes and deny opp 1 mex

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While killing all their t1

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Then when they come with sniper/banisher you have such a metal advantage you roll with mass t1 + quaker

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Or you can pass t2s for a more neutral game

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Use light transport to transport nano to the mid-front position

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T2 mex on glit takes like 120? Sec to pay off, t2 unit microed well can achieve that no sweat

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Not to mention t2 mex drains an extra 20 or so energy

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That's 2 winds

steep verge
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the fast banisher timing on glitters is very wind dependent is it?

hearty widget
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One opening I've seen is a 7-front variant where eco goes front for an early advantage and the carry mid player rushes a front T2 lab after securing mid and builds an early T2 unit who would then hand out T2 to the rest of the team.

I've only seen this strat a couple times so I'm not intimately familiar with it, but the theory is that because the responsibility of handing out T2 bots is now handed to a front player (who typically has 12-14 mexes), they can keep up with handing out T2 bots while having all of the advantages of a commie build which is usually an early T2 unit plus you have a front T2 lab.

The funny thing is, if I understand this opening correctly - you don't actually need to commie anything to do this (other than handing out T2 con bots which is typical). Could this become the new meta? I imagine it could since it would survive any anti-commie game mechanics being proposed. It's a little harder to understand and execute so I don't see it being used in a noob lobby but for now its probably in the back pocket of some OP players. It also seems to be a lot more flexible than standard 6-front.

steep verge
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you don't need to make full set of t2 cons

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honestly only a few players need the t2 cons and those plp can upgrade their mexes super fast

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while the rest focus on units

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this especially matters with the vehicle t2 cons

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especially if you are a front lab you'd rather make units

hearty widget
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interesting, do you only hand them out to the backline then?

steep verge
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whoever has the most money and energy to build the most mexes fastest

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not sure on glitters, but typically air player, and front player if they are setup with metal, energy, and bp

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or whoever has higher value mex, etc

hearty widget
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ok, so basically you skip players who are stalling

steep verge
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yeah there's no point in giving t2 to people who can't afford the m or e

hearty widget
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makes sense

twilit summit
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I think 7 front and a t2 lab on front is a good play for this commie. But if commie is banisher, that lab might not go up. Well, it all depends on all teammates and their performance tbh

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Commie itself is as good as players play into it, protect it, etc

dawn copper
steep verge
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solar is a lot better than wind in the short term

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it builds faster per unit of e income the problem is m stalling

twilit summit
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Solar because speed is the most important factor for the rush

steep verge
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build i use atm uses 5 solars between 2 players

twilit summit
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But also its consistent, as glitt wind is very inconsistent

steep verge
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yeh

twilit summit
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And you can produce a build with exact number of solars for your goal, which is very min-max

steep verge
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indeeed

twilit summit
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To continue with the thread intention, on glitters the commie build is very scoutable. First scout sees the corner player building up E only and mexes, and shared buildings are visible. The question is, how to respond when you know it's comming. This is the knowledge I want players to get

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The open front nature of glitters allows for a lot of cooperation outside of communism. But first, everybody has to experience the potential of every rushed unit to properly respond.

steep verge
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2:59 t2 lab, 3:12+3:31 quaker

twilit summit
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I see you blow 1 comm, meaning corner cant support lane with comm and quakers. I take it this is more solo play and forgoing 1 player entirely?

steep verge
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the mid com should walk

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after the lab start producing you can't use the com bp

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so it should walk forward to be a combat engi

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and guard the quaker

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you should definitely get light trans for the quakers

steep verge
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you need a strong anti-canyon

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to be able to play the game without support

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but then you come with t2 and try and kill their rainbow player

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alternatively you can push the other side

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if your rainbow player advances you can breakthrough with mass medium tank + quakers (and there's 3 directions you can flood into, vs only 1 on the other side)

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i think medium tank is the way as banishers can't deal with superior number of medium tanks

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and quaker can hunt the coms

late fractal
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my issue with commied quakers is they are not very self sufficient units

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your will hit the front so quick that you run the risk of them being completely unsupported

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you would need to coordinate with frontliners so they monospam pawns for you

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I really like slinger and banisher as they are much better vs all types of unit compositions and can basically solo stuff

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tzar>flak>2-3banisher is also a very nice rush

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also if you blow both coms its possible to have 3 tzars at like 6:30💀

steep verge
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That's the point of bringing one of your coms up I thinj

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Com more valuable as a mex + repair + bodyguard + engi

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Slinger is fun unit, adds a lot of pressure

brittle osprey
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I hope you guys get that joke...

brittle osprey
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I have also litteraly never seen cheeta do communism

steep verge
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most of the good players realize it takes a sledge hammer to the battle of playing well

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at least in the context of a public lobby

twilit summit
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cheetah always does communism, but not early game one. he buys fusions, skipping conturret stack and build time for it. this might seem minor compared to giving 13 solar to someone in the beginning, but the tempo he can keep this way is huge in the stage where everybody building up t2 economy

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a lot of players also use 2 solar boost at start, namely Chevrolet, who was 66 OS yesterday. Again, its not 13 solars, but with 13 solars the other person doesn't have their own units, while Chev bypasses early time requirement for E (and resources) and can solidify his frontline, which is giga impactful. early game is really strong

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I think the biggest problem of our commie is that responses to it have to change from the fairly "standard" glitters meta. Until this is tried a gazzilion times and fought versus, we can't conclude if it's too strong or not. Just from our experience, it's increasingly harded to win with some of our commies now VS 1 month ago. Especially gunslinger commie that ended games the fastest is now always transitioning into a long game, meaning it was defended well

late fractal
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I mean...buying t2 units from eco in exchange for raw resources is an extremely similar thing (mechanically speaking) to sharing your mexes and solars/winds to eco so he can build the units for you out of those same resources but delivered in a different manner

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how can you describe the 1st interaction as non commie but 2nd as complete commie?

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to be even more clear

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the current meta glitter frontline strat of buying snipers from eco while you produce mostly spam is a commie strat.

steep verge
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funneling is just resource pooling

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commie, funneling both resource pooling

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boost is resource pooling but smaller amount, usually earlier

hearty widget
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You could make the case that buying units like spiders and T2 con bots from eco is the "same thing" as handing over your entire base in exchange for all future units. You're not "wrong" you're just missing the point as to why people are fine with one and not the other.

The reason why people don't like the second thing but is fine with the first thing (both are confusingly described as "commie") is that the second thing is an ENTIRELY different game altogether. Some people enjoy this game, while others find it unfun and not the thing they signed up for.

The first game requires players to juggle managing an economy and an army to protect your own economy while destroying the opponents units and bases. The second game only requires you to do one of those things and instead requires you to work closely with another player to either manage an economy or manage your units on your behalf. Some people want to play and compete on the first game, and don't care for the second game.

To say both of these games are the "same" is like saying that a robot-themed MMORPG is the same as BAR because they both involve pretending to be robots wanting to kill each other. People running a full blown commie build aren't even playing an RTS game. They're playing a game where one person is running a MOBA and the other is playing Factorio. That's perfectly fine, it's just that some people came here to play a team 8v8 RTS game.

The solution to this (IMO) is to find a way to balance the game so that both playstyles are strategically viable and can compete fairly against one another. Playing a commie strat should be a decision like playing vehicles or bots. If bots were overwhelmingly powerful to the point where no one could ever build a vehicle lab than that would be a problem that needs to be addressed. That's where we are now with "commie" strats.

steep verge
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if buying 2 spiders or 1 sniper is okay, what about when t2 hits you stop making any units except maybe ticks, reclaim your rocket bots, and feed all your metal and e to techer

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Where do you draw the line of how much is acceptable?

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anyways point is not to remove this funneling/coop but nerf it so it's not 100x better than non-coop, and so non tech roles are able to make mid game instead of just feeding for t2 units because its so effecient

hearty widget
gloomy flume
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Felt like real team work instead of right click lab and hope my techer is better

worldly basin
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noob here, what is a commie?

twilit summit
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Most ppl refer to commie when 2 players share structures to gain economic advantage early on, and for example one scales, the other microes units. But realistically, the difference between "standard games" (getting t2 con from tech player, getting certain units like sniper on frontline from tech, sending metal to a better player midgame etc) are the same mechanic but made on different scale or timeframe
.

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One issue is, a lot of players single out certain commie strats but are not aware they use the same mechanic throughout the game ( they just didnt think out better ways to use this mechanic).

And the other issue is, people who realize its the same thing, but feel that commie at certain times (early on) or on a bigger scale is a problem while lesser commie isnt.

What is certainly true is the fact that well thought out commie strat exploits the stale map metagame and requires players to change / adapt strategy midgame, which a lot of players arent able to do (newer) or arent willing to do (even very good players)

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Some ppl use term "coop" for the same mechanic. Coop is used more by Isthmus players, commie by Glitters. Its the same "issue"

inland yarrow
steep verge
thin blade
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Chevrolet absolutely uses the hoelander strat and he is the highest glitter os

steep verge
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Many those same high os have said how commie is stupid

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Them doing it occasionally doesn't change that

hearty widget
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Dare I ask? What's the hoelander strat? emoflathink

inland yarrow
surreal ermine
steep verge
hearty widget
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Oh so it has a name? Ripsy was trying to convince me that nobody does this strat and if they do it's my problem because I didn't try to get it banned even though I've been literally making the case on why it should be banned 🙄

brittle osprey
velvet timber
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They don’t do it because they think it kills lobby (because no one enjoys playing with it) and they don’t enjoy it and they sorta want ppl to play I think - so they have ppl to game with

velvet timber
velvet timber
steep verge
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I think it's the higher you climb normally, the more bullshit you realize it is

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cause you understand the game, have put time into improving, all those small edges you can get

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or you can just bring a low os butt buddy or have a teammate convieniently leave the game

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i think people who like it enjoy the possibilities but they can't or choose not to see the negative effects.

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meta coop strats will destroy most non-meta coop strats which people consider creative, anyways

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Then you have the people who want to win at all costs

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nothing wrong with that but the flawed game/ranking system will push that towards what most would consider unfun gameplay (low os battery, coop in random lobby)

keen frigate
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How is that even closely relevant to the thread topic ?