Season 2 balance feedback

[grizzled atlas]

hmm? sheldon counter mauser theyjust have less impact. quakers are better cause more aoe but sheldon still should beat them with good micro

vehicle arty just op impact for cost

[visual wolf]

Veh arty can't really kill a sheldon ball in the stage where it most matter, which is early t2. Veh arty costs a ton of energy to make, so you either need a fusion or good wind. if you don't have that, you probably won't produce enough energy to have enough arty to kill a microed sheldon ball. Also sheldons can kite super easy and walk back while firing, so they can easily retreat into porc, and when arty cant follow and has to turn back they can just shoot it in the back

[gentle wasp]

Bingo. Also walking into sheldons while they shoot backwards also means your units will be getting hit a lot more while your shots will be missing a lot more as you are aiming where they were at the edge of your range.

I think most of all sheldons are just FAR easier for people (of all OS) to get value from than Veh arty right now.

And that's without talking about how veh arty gets creamed by starlights and sharpshooters.

[grizzled atlas]

sorry are we playing the same game? quaker is 400/4000

i think you are talking about banisher

[visual wolf]

I'm talking about Mauser

still it doesn't change the fact that one sheldon costs half the energy and can kite same-energy value of early t2 units with ease

simply put sheldon has the prices of a t1 unit (well, the metal is a bit more than a t1 unit) while veh arty costs substantially more E - which is often the bottleneck in early t2 unit production

[grizzled atlas]

when supported vehicle arty kills more stuff than sheldon

are are also less vision dependent and can splash cloaked coms to an extent

[lunar hollow]

sheldons have no reason to stop shooting ever, unless there is a gauntlet wich is allready kind of an L in most cases for the person who build it, mauser and quaker very much need to be positioned carefully so they often dont shoot for more then half the time

[nocturne quail]

nuke bomber + stiletto need big nerf

[grizzled atlas]

sheldon are more dodgeable by t1. due to low splash

[cosmic garden]

wait airpad have been removed? because dev dont want to put effort into recoding it?
because it only help big hp units which are limited to Core and Legion(tyranus/dragon)?

[summer kiln]

#1411526418067882054

[fast obsidian]

long list of stuff removed

[forest girder]

other devs did fix it
its the gdt that didnt like them

[cosmic garden]

gdt?sorry i dont know that abreviation

[forest girder]

game design team

[grizzled atlas]

I admit they added a lot of jank and are truly rarely used. The coolest version had to be the aircraft carriers

If there was anything that could make gunships great

[barren prawn]

dang I forgot about those

[ruby folio]

bot spybot nerf absolutely killed the early t2 unit interactions

[pearl merlin]

it's almost as if people have been saying that since the very first posts in this thread in March

[ruby folio]

maybe it means that we should buff it instead of talking about it o m g

for sum reason we still talk about commie yet miss one of the greatest chances to get more viable bot lab urself with great unit that punishes building late t2 units in early stages

also iirc it explodes now itself if its hitbox touches any unit so thats even more broken rip

its like the season 2 "invisible threats" nerf just incentivized ppl to build more resource concentrated units instead of building a lot of t1

@wintry pelican op faf gaymeur save us

even cortex has op beetles cmon

[wintry pelican]

I try king

[ruby folio]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1274393777150230541/1416057065083895918/pray-crying-4189846615.gif

the world is healing

[gentle wasp]

I would also add Cortex not having ticks or cents in T1 does make for some lopsided battles early.

And Janus >>>> pounders

[barren prawn]

Indeed it is

[harsh egret]

I feel like sniper should get buffed 20k energy to 15k

[grizzled atlas]

Sniper is pretty brutal to make on maps with lower wind than ithsmus ngl.

[meager blade]

Counterpoint sharpshooters contest with t3 they are in a good spot

[half scaffold]

Snipers are a cool unit that do their job well but have very clear counters. I also think they're also slightly too expensive.

Makes me wish that cortex had something similar for t3 / bulky unit removal in t2.

[grizzled atlas]

Sniper can just get a bit more hp to not instantly die to tick / bomber / gunship. The e cost is mainly to preventing rushing the unit, faster rushed snipers are not really going to make the t2 stage funner.

[flint ginkgo]

Yeh can't see making snipers easier to produce being a good idea. Having them last a bit more could be ok tho.

[wintry pelican]

Play some dworld ffas and you'll be begging for sniper nerf instead of fatty nerf

[lunar hollow]

not if you have a catapult

[grizzled atlas]

140%(?) movespeed roads and butlers is one hell of a drug

[strong vale]

Sniper is very snowbally unit, when you have time to set it up, in FFA there is a lot of down time, you can ignore drawbacks of high energy and low HP.

[harsh egret]

Right but we need to apply it in a sense of which mode is most played idk I just think it cost alot

[harsh egret]

Ye I agree ^

[meager blade]

Sick knitpicking but i was referring to the t3 its often used for such as maras, shivas, razors and demons

Even enough of them will threaten a titan

[harsh egret]

It doesnt make sense to send t3 naked snipers become absolute when titans are out or catapults

[dusty citrus]

Why do you think balance changes need to be applied for most played mode? We can't balance the whole game around 8v8 isthmus/glitters. Besides, at 'high level' the most common played mode is Duel according to bar-stats.

[meager blade]

Agreed doesnt mean it still wont do massive damage the point im getting at is the unit is worth the cost making it any easier to push out would throw off the entire meta

[west birch]

Not every unit needs to be great for every game type

[harsh egret]

Even in duels its not used or small teams as much as it should imo

also it's not about that ffa is such a mode where it's not played as often that's where I am going at

also this is a response to the person who said it would be a nightmare to play against them in ffa

[harsh egret]

^^

literally the starlight costs 16500 energy where the sniper is 20k sure the starlight cost more metal but it's overall a much better unit than sharpshooter

[harsh egret]

I also would support what chrono said more hp or some sort of buff overall would be sweet

[crisp bison]

Debatable. Overall better in what way? 50 more range, while paying twice the energy per shot? Being unable to turn around on a dime? Almost twice the cost in metal is kind of a big deal. These two are quite different, and the cost difference covers it fairly well.

[grizzled atlas]

It's a liability without support so you either use it in low numbers as long range dps or for commited push

sniper costs about 980(?) converted, starlight is 1464 converted

starlight just has good fire rate and hp for a long range unit, anti-overkill

[meager blade]

Devs have said multiple times they dont want monocomp units they want something that requires another unit

[grizzled atlas]

Starlight is not a mono comp you have sl + pawn

[dapper cape]

Secret melee weapon

[tulip laurel]

Like Cluster munitions vs dumb bombs? hmm Could be a firing mode 🙂

[west birch]

Not sure what cluster munitions would mean on this context. I'm thinking of simply replacing the aoe death explosion with a emp beam weapon that targets a single unit

[empty yew]

If unit modes weren't frowned uppon i would suggest spybot having 2 modes of selfD: single target strong and AOE weak (for t1)

Or if aoe is kept as is, but the single target it hits gets emped more strongly

This shouldnt affect mass t2 or t3

[scarlet mirage]

replace ghost selfd emp with a very short range high burst single target emp weapon that decloaks the ghost for a short time

similar to gremlin weapon but emp

suicide units are stupid

a suicide unit will always be either op or too weak

[half scaffold]

Webber on crack???

[tardy basin]

#1353364944350871632 message

That was the idea with the AOE nerf, be able to spybot 1 unit or a very small ball.
Bedbugs can deal with ball of sheldons early, spybots SHOULD be the spy + emp single "big" unit that is not T3 (2 spybots for t3 empable)

So even maybe adapt e consumption to 15/100, so people are incentive to move spybots uncloak to a point of observation, then cloak it and stop moving it, if you want emp something, move cost should be big to avoid mass spybots wave

[west birch]

Invisible suicide unit also doesn't let a newbie even know what hit them

Practically the difference isn't big, a spybot will mostly get killed off after getting spotted, when using its weapon. At least on the frontline, inside an enemy base there could be more play with firing and then sneaking away again. Reloadtime should be long still

[scarlet mirage]

yeah I agree

you could add some changes like hp buffs in combination with nerfs to cost or cloak walk costs to change this but i'm not sure if its necessary

it would make it feel more like a real unit

instead of a weird spell you cast

[flint ginkgo]

Sounds unnecesarily complicated

[west birch]

What's complicated about having a weapon

[subtle jasper]

I like the weapon and temp decloak idea. Better qualitative design than deathsplosion, and maaaaybe can think about letting them stun high tier units again given they wouldn't also be able to stun the unit's escort (allowing easier 'defend the Tzar' counterplay)

The traumatic moment that made me hate spybot I had a ball of Tigers with the Tzar, they would've been able to punch back against the mass that consumed him

[stray oasis]

the reasons skuttle is op isnt its invisibility, ghost is op because it is stealthy and u cant use radar. Just make old ghost not stealthy and its perfectly balanced

or have seismic detectors not insane expensive or built into some units (like mobile radars etc)

[barren prawn]

skuttle has OP emotional damage stat too

[stray oasis]

skuttle is honestly good unit on land - its only giga broken when its vs ships imo. Skuttle is great in a land setting - it has skill checks across the board for your enemy and yourself

my point tho is the reason ghost is op is because it insta stuns ur entire stuff + u dont really have that much counterplay options. Have mobile seismic detectors or drastically decrease the cost of seismic detectors so they can actually be justified to build on a frontline

ghost was such a great unit to turn the tide against a snowballing aggressor but now that its effectively useless bots are waaaaaay out of meta

[subtle jasper]

And also auto-target seismic signatures (if you need it to be different then just amp up the (radar (not radar)) drift)

[stray oasis]

although making seismic detectors cheap could make the jammer + com defense less stable - it should probably be a separate thing than a mobile radar or coms have some kind of special property to not leave a seismic signature

[crisp bison]

It's just that it shouldn't be about seismic signature. Just make Jammers neutralize stealth in active range.

At that point, the only problem is Juno's, which should've been reworked long time ago anyway.

This way you'd also have counter-play to mines, instead of relying entirely on Juno, and cloaked cameras, which effectively has no counterplay other than stumbling upon them randomly.

[empty yew]

Code anything basically that will result in spybot meaningfully stunning (=/= 0,2 second stun) tzar and fatboy

And lets brainstorm from there on

[fast obsidian]

It's nice to see the spybot able to stun a bull for 0.1 sec, really top notch and precise balancing.

[strong vale]

Is there any way to make spybot fair and not frustrating to play vs? Can there be EMP option that's not frustrating to play vs

[lunar hollow]

low AOE, high EMP damage, high cost for the unit

make it not profitable to EMP average units, so when someone sends average units ahead its very costly whenever spybot gets spotted

it works with scuttles too, hitting only a few LLTs or grunts/thugs feels very bad when you use a scuttle

[wintry pelican]

It's not the emp it's that there's no counterplay since you can't see it

[strong vale]

one of problems withspybot yes

[grizzled atlas]

Maybe make it lose stealth for a 1.5-2 seconds while self-d counter is ticking I dunno. So if you can juno the enemy or bring a jammer in range you still get full invis spybot, but otherwise there is some warning. Most units will not be able to hit the spybot without a pinpointer tho

spybot's primary job should be vision + gathering intel, it's okay if the self-d is situational (as long as it's not terrible)

[meager blade]

Tbh the banisher needs a nerf

Source trust me bro

[empty yew]

I see this brought up a lot but there's ticks you can use. Spybotting around players that protect units is hell when you're banking on that stun to survive. Seems balanced to me

[subtle jasper]

It was a very unfun micro chore (imo) necessitated because spybot had outsized impact

[scarlet mirage]

countering spybot with ticks is way more expensive than the spybot

[tardy basin]

Gremlins and com under jammer range neither..
It is why ICS exist

[grizzled atlas]

juno deals with cloaked com. gremlins are stealthy except not against sonar

[cinder field]

short range seismic detector on spy bots maybe? Maybe only if turned on and stationary for a while and for extra E upkeep?

also same for minelayer, maybe for the cameras, maybe for the advanced radar? Could be balanced by making all of these very short ranged

[wintry pelican]

Thanks for the lesson. This 700 mass cost short range immobile structure + t1 lab + nano + gruntspam will surely save my early t2 units on enemy side of the map from being emp'd

[fast obsidian]

They could add detection to mobile antinuke but they rather just delete it coz they tired of getting outplayed

[tardy basin]

Next lesson :
You can make your t1 lab auto rez things with ALT + F move on a wreck

[empty yew]

You either make the spybot capable of stopping the rushed t2 or not, but it seems that rushed t2 is all the rage. hard to have both worlds

[grizzled atlas]

you can still rush t2 but spread all your early t2

[crisp bison]

Like I said, Spybots need counterplay. Currently there's none. You cannot counter something that you cannot see or ward against. And no, spamming is not the way to go about it from the design perspective.
If there's counterplay, then you can make the Spybots as strong as the unit cost would suggest.

[fast obsidian]

oh rip there were no counter plays, unluck

[visual wolf]

cooped t2 units have almost no counterplay as well apart from cooping yourself... I'd rather return to OP spybots which can stop coop than to the mess we have right now

spybots were never that much of an issue, it's not even that hard to bring a t2 con with 5 engineers to build frontline stealth detectors

[lunar hollow]

all spybot needed was a reduction in AOE, because it was a it too good at countering any amount of marauders even lets say 50 of them if you have a bunch of spybots

[fast obsidian]

Tells you a lot when some a dev rather remove a unit to stop getting rekt than improve at the video game, wcyd

[normal iron]

it was stunning razorbacks for 15 seconds bro come on

[meager blade]

I think they should be stunned for 30

[lunar hollow]

allso, i guess we could rebrand antinukes as some kind of building that combines stealth detection and anti nuke, Buildings being too niche is bad for the game because the enemy might not make stealth units or nukes, but the chance that the enemy will make one of the 2 is pretty high so giving both mobile and static anti nuke stealth detection would be pretty good for the game, would propably require a bit of a remodel on all 4 of those units so they have some kind of radar dish or antenna but it would be worth it since were getting rid of a building nobody really needs just like pinpointer, as long as we keep the functionality in game elsewhere

its not necessary at all tho, its still possible to make anti stealth even while attacking its just a bit annoying

[meager blade]

You clearly dont play me in glitters i abuse gremlins

[strong vale]

how do you spybot anti nuke?

[meager blade]

8 gremlins>1 afus

[lunar hollow]

ok, its been a while since i saw that strat being used, but fair enough i guess if eneough people wouldnt like that strat being removed from the game then thats understandable, im kindof neutral towards this

[meager blade]

They made antinuke stunnable through one ghost bot again

Its been doable again

Can you stun antinuke with a emp launcher?

[lunar hollow]

oh definetly, you can stun shields too

LRPC + emp launcher is OP

[meager blade]

Does it shut the shield down?

Always wondered about that

But yeah 8 gremlins can change a match

[shadow cedar]

Maybe the interaction No stealth detection -> Spybot op and continuous stealth detection -> Spybot useless is to binary. You could add skill expression by adding stealth detection as a skill, like yuno for radar.
If you want to push with your razors you can check for spybot but you cannot permanently create a safezone.

[crisp bison]

If only Jammer fields can negate stealth, its not a binary situation. Do note that the main purpose of Spybots is spotting, not disabling.
But yes, if you provide no means to detect and destroy spybots at all, they will be technically OP, therefore you'd have to keep their EMP strength low and cost high.

[harsh egret]

can we buff arm nuke

[empty yew]

Arm nuke strong already, the speed and cost makes up for it

When i was in a nuking phase, arm nuke was superior in my experience

[grizzled atlas]

Can confirm arm nuke better in 75% of cases

[harsh egret]

Idk but this seems pretty weak

[grizzled atlas]

yeah but that's totally in your control. intel issue

[harsh egret]

what

chrono it was a direct hit. those should've literally died

[grizzled atlas]

or if they knew where the afus was just click on the afus dead on

[harsh egret]

it wouldn't matter either ways + there's instances where the nuke hits the mountains if you directly target the afus

[grizzled atlas]

yeh i didn't think of that case before

well, when you are in situation with multiple afus sure go cortex

[harsh egret]

Idk but nukes already are in a weird spot when it comes to their cost and now seing how arm nuke performs it's just not right in terms of use

[grizzled atlas]

arm nuke is generally better for rushing unless there are very juicy cor nuke targets

[grizzled atlas]

it's probably because glitter is a bad nuke map you can cover most of the team with 1 anti. In generaly nuke is pretty strong on larger maps

[harsh egret]

1 anti isn't enough to cover everything you need like min 4 to ensure every area on the map is covered and those need to also be placed acordingly

[grizzled atlas]

yeah but in a nuke rush scenario the point is not to cover EVERYTHING, but cover enough targets that the nuke doesn't get sufficient value to stop you from winning over all
remember, a nuke's payoff is delayed by the build time + 2 minutes, + 2 minutes everytime afterwards. and every nuke costs about 1000/120000

[harsh egret]

but the issue lies in with the cost + damage

[empty yew]

Good thing about arm nuke is you can usually nuke twice before anti is ready if its build as a response and not imediately. Or you can nuke frontlines fast to push in. True that on glitt with core nuke you can kill 2 players though.. but still, speed really is important

[humble lake]

what is the reason of thugs shooting a projectile in an angle that seems like it can shoot over t1 walls but in fact it cannot when its at range? so their only use case is to play agressive really early against rockos or centurions until llts and walls com up?

[grizzled atlas]

t1 walls are so insanely op for cost. as people become more aware they going to warp the unit interactions

perhaps the 2nd most op unit in the game after the rez bot

[grizzled atlas]

Current balance Complaints

Unit Balance

• Hound is useless in higher level games. Needs a Guass cannon, not a slow mortar shot. You also CAN increase it's speed and reduce it's range. Also it has a substantially high E cost (1:22) compared to other t2 units

• Mauser/Quaker is OP efficiency. Increase E/BP cost by 20%, +50 range, increased accuracy, +35% projectile flight time, slightly reduced aoe on quaker, reduced speed. This is to make it easier to dodge their shots, but also let them accurately hit porc without ground fire

• Beamers/Twinguards and repair are too op: Increase BP cost of twinguard/beamer by 15% and E cost by 10%. This doesn't effect the LLT, which is the primary porc used in 1v1.

• Spybot needs a buff, perhaps 8000 stun damage, 12 second stun time on units (if higher stun time, reduce the radius)

• Duck E cost is crippling (330/9500 is 1:28.8, same E ratio is as a sniper). It should be 1:20.

• Sumo is expensive and niche: Increase movespeed by 38->41

• Hovers are useless besides light hovers. AA hover needs emp resist and e cost reduction. It is very expensive and can be stunned cost effectively by shurikens. Medium hovers need a range reduction and a significant speed increase.

• Commando is useless due to shuriken. It needs ability to build nettles and at least 80% emp resist.

Mechanics:

• Repair is too op
  • Centurion and Thugs power is extremely tied to repair, which lowers their ability to receive other buffs like speed to be more relevant on larger maps. It's impossible to make porc tanky right now because it would be broken with repair.
  • Repair is a snowball mechanic, either the unit dies quickly, or it gets repaired for insane value. This leads to all or nothing interactions.
  • Repair is especially OP on beamer, but also shows up on HLT and gauntlet/rattlesnake
  • Repair on t2 units is op. Early t2 vs t2 fight and everywhere is all about stacking repair on t2 units and porc.

[strong vale]

When tzar flak?

[tardy basin]

"Spybot needs a buff, perhaps 8000 stun damage, 12 second stun time on units (if higher stun time, reduce the radius)"
Why 8 000 ? Why not 12 000 ? Have you think about all units interaction with the 1,2 HP of emp damage needed to start emp ?

My spybot balance suggestion still effective btw :
#1353364944350871632 message

[grizzled atlas]

yes I'm not convinced 1 spybot should 1 shot stun a tzar (including a leveled 10k hp tzar), without say abusing flanking

[crisp bison]

I'd rather have them cost less E and BP, so that people would start making them for the intended purpose (vision)

[grizzled atlas]

tzar/banisher power is being inflated by coop rn

it's good but in a solo scenario you do give up a lot for it.

Forward lab makes it very awkward to upgrade afterwards. Cor veh lab has no utility. Insanely delays first t2 cons.

If they delay with jammer long enough to get their own options they can deal with it

[crisp bison]

Yeah, you'd typically be better served solo with Quakers

doing Tzar solo, you'd have to steal a ton of reclaim to make it somewhat up-to-date

[grizzled atlas]

I think 6 quakers can deal with a tzar actually. with good micro. Get someone to send in a tick trickle and just kite it

with any solo teching stealing metal from front is the way to go

What I used to do is make 2 quakers into 1-2 banishers (vs cortex)

quaker is far more effeicient, but banisher is for possibility of sheldons/tzar/banisher,

it is really hard to micro 2 quakers and banishers at the same time, so you can give the quaker to frontline after your banisher arrives

[lunar hollow]

arent 6 quakers more expensive

solo rushing is 4 quakers propably, but the amount has been inflated by everyone pressing sliders

[tropic aurora]

Yeah. See the above Quaker v Sheldon discussion. T1 walls block Sheldon shots easily.

[tropic aurora]

Thoughts on: Should repair cost more than just bp?

Doing damage is free. But replacing units is not. Even if it was some nominally small E cost that would be significant for the E expensive T2 towers and rushed T2 units. While not being a big burden on more metal dense T1 units like thugs and brutes.

[grizzled atlas]

yeah but less e, by the time the tzar is walking your first 2 quakers should already pay for them self

[grizzled atlas]

well this is where you make t2 units not so free damage on t1 units

i rather they just buff bots and make vehicle movespeed penalty harsher on slopes

Vehicle impassable terrain = Black and White
Vehicle slowed greatly = defender's advantage for bots but vehicles can claim it eventually if undefended

[west birch]

That doesn't matter regardless, if a map has practically no relevant slopes. Like supreme/atg dont

[meager blade]

Read bring back gauss forum 😉

[grizzled atlas]

Of course, not talking about atg/strait

[gentle wasp]

Banishers should be able to one shot a spooder.

To call banishers a "burst" unit in their current state is laughable. They either need more aoe, or higher damage. Cor has nothing like sharpshooters, or starlight to punish naked t3 rushes like arm does.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

While we are at it. Catapults should have the equivalent of an LLT to defend against ticks given their energy/metal costs.

[humble lake]

Way?

[spark locust]

Core veh is meta in the upper echelons so giving banisheur even more power would be quite silly

[grizzled atlas]

banisher already handily beats spider, after the spider nerf

[lunar hollow]

Banisher is just a joke vs starlights that's all, can't really fix that without making banisher OP

And the supposed counter from the lab wich is tremor is not easy to get quick and is kinda clunky, starlights can be rushed at any time with estorage, it's just not usually worth it to do it at 5 minutes but it works

[empty yew]

I think in specific maps a couple units will always dominate which arent OP otherwise. Glitters is so packed you cant bust starlights with tigers but on many maps such a tank push is a threat

[grizzled atlas]

On larger map heavy tank better than starlight and banisher is good at supplementing / countering heavy tank

By big I mean you have to walk a while to attack important targets

[cinder field]

Cor has nothing like sharpshooters, or starlight to punish naked t3 rushes like arm does

People forget about the Skuttle which plays differently than sharpshooters but I would argue it is almost always a better way to punish t3 rushes than sharpshooters. It's much better against marauders at least and two skuttles are very good against Razorbacks/Karganeth too. And as a bonus, they are fairly good against sharpshooters and starlights and against all kinds of strong units.
I'm not saying cortex doesn't need a unit like sharpshooters, but they already have a very good unit which can be used very effectively at least defensively so arguments should take that into account to be more convincing.

[grizzled atlas]

@west birch Is there any intentions for the cortex bot lab opening animation? The 2 or so seconds it takes to open = 300 bp which is quite a big deal so early.

intuitively it doesn't make sense for new or veteran players to have only 1 basic lab have an opening delay.

i remember Hornet hotfixed it in in one of the patches

arm bots might be the only lab that doesn't have a delay

[west birch]

no intentions. We discussed it at some point, mightve been Hornet who brought it up.

Factories don't need to be uniform in script or cost, as long as they're overall balanced (unit roster is the biggest thing ofc, but comparing just factory stats, cortex ones are cheaper). The opening time adds a little uniqueness and flavor imo. Cortex veh plant also has a notable opening animation, even if not as long as the bots.

Iirc we decided that the factories should keep open once they're open, to not give a penalty for momentarily stopping unit production. But nobody actually implemented that I suppose... If somebody feels like doing that, you have my blessing

[grizzled atlas]

yeah definitely not have them close when you stop production. An analogue exists, it's planes landing automatically when you stop them -- and it sucks
Having them close would also make the optimal play building someting + wait the lab, which is unfun micro.

[meager blade]

thug 2 strong need nerf fr fr thug walk pretty strong

source: trust me

[grizzled atlas]

https://www.twitch.tv/hells_hound_/clip/FragileKitschyTardigradePoooound-rUXGHwI9NT20ddsa

side effect of LLT bp buff + repair

[strong vale]

LLTs are fine

[cinder field]

I'm still a bit salty that mex got a HP buff, LLT got a BP cost buff, exploiter is both units in one and received neither

[hollow dawn]

exploiter is still good though

it was just very good before

[strong vale]

exploiter is fine as well

You can't focus it down as fast it's 2x hp of llt i think

[hollow dawn]

and it's more than twice as easy to get self-d vs raiders

[grizzled atlas]

exploiter has the hp of a twinguard but weapon of an llt

basicallly it's weaker than a twinguard in fire power but makes up for it in protecting the mex and being extremely cheap in bp cost

1030 bp vs 4800 bp

[tropic aurora]

Exploiter got cortex con build power buff.

[scarlet mirage]

mega annoying gameplay

[gentle wasp]

The counter you're describing requires give E and BP investment for a kamakazie unit that gets countered by a cheap T1 radar. (I still say T1 radar shouldn't detect skuttles)

But meanwhile the enemy gets to have a unit that can do what skuttles do without killing itself.

Plus if they send spam with it there's no way to priority target a back line unit like sharp shooters can etc.

[normal iron]

lmao the entire team wasting metal at minute 6 wtf happened that game

[cinder field]

Neither works in all situations. Like sharpshooters are great at glitters rainbow lane and skuttles are not (because radar), but at the same time skuttles are great in the canyon while sharpshooters are not.

That it's a kamikaze unit is not a big deal, not if we look at value gained. I can't know for sure of course but my guesstimate is that the average skuttle I make destroys about 4k metal. It's by far the most cost effective and valuable unit for me at least.

But to be fair, I don't use sharpshooters often while I use skuttles all the time so I might be biased. Still, there's no question in my mind that skuttles are very relevant in balance discussions related to t3 counters.

[silver gulch]

repair under fire is the single most overpowered mechanic in the game

[gentle wasp]

Imagine if taking damage reduced repair rate by half for 2-3 seconds after damage was dealt (and no cooldown been damage refreshing the effect)

[stray oasis]

@mitvit can u pls consider decreasing cormando cost next patch since it is literally one of the least used units in game, maybe if cheaper people find ways to introduce into meta

[grizzled atlas]

plz give it nettle build list and 80% emp resist for starters, dunno why a 1200m t2 unit can be dealt with with 2 amove shurikens

it won't be broken. at worst it will make people paranoid build llts in their base

which is nothing the skuttle doesn't do already

[stray oasis]

its a fun high octane high apm unit it should be whacky overall

but losing the entire fun to 2 shuri rip

if it loses to shuri it should be way cheaper imo

[harsh egret]

@grizzled atlas whats the latest proposed unit tweak option?

is this it? https://discordapp.com/channels/549281623154229250/1415750332419543193/1424525198354550865

[fast obsidian]

how many shuriken shots would a 80% resist make it?

[chilly heath]

It would go from 2 shots to 10 (probably 11 if you don't have many shuris since emp goes down between shots).

Ehh it's already more than 2. Seems math is more complicated.

[grizzled atlas]

Yes op is updated

[harsh egret]

alr thanks ❤️

[grizzled atlas]

Laser fall off from shuirken probably

[chilly heath]

Yeah I forgot laser falloff.

So more like 4 shots -> 20.

[grizzled atlas]

I don't use commando but I know they are 100% unviable atm except for maybe an expensive but good underwater vacumn cleaner

[fast obsidian]

might be too high emp resist but yea could be nice to have it not countered by a single shuriken in 2 secs
plus Dolfy isn't playing anymore to abuse Commando

[grizzled atlas]

Shuriken isn't the designed counter for commando just like it isn't the designed counter for pincer/sala

[chilly heath]

It is quite meme unit yeah. Not entirely sure how to fix. It might be one of those units that once you "fix" it people start using it every game and it ruins every match.

[grizzled atlas]

It's a brute force option

[grizzled atlas]

Is it ruining games because it's actually too strong even with proper counterplay? Or people complain because it forces them to learn a different way of defending.

Or is the unit just too annoying to play against

People use skuttle all the time it falls into a similar category imo

It's like a Yolo fun button, that's annoying to play against but fun to use.

[chilly heath]

You have to consider if a strong commando would be fun gameplay yeah. The mechanic where you build mines next to afus is pretty stupid tbh.

[grizzled atlas]

If you have an afus dying to commando is skill issue

Surely...?

[chilly heath]

Surely yes.

[grizzled atlas]

Commando doesn't have to be strong it just has to be viable

[fast obsidian]

Nettle + emp resist would make it too op that's for sure

[grizzled atlas]

You should be using spam to clear it not shuirikens anyways

If it builds too fast nerf the bp

I think we can agree that shuriken being a point and click answer to commando is boring gameplay (easily possible even with emp resist)

So if commando is too strong then make it easier to stop with other units

Less bp or slightly less speed

[chilly heath]

Yea we'll give it some love at some point. The age of the commando will come.

[grizzled atlas]

Maybe 100% emp resist no nettle. Gunship counters it but not shruiken, if you own the sea you can retreat back to the water

T2 gunship shut it down ez but you can probably use the window before enemy air gets t2.

[strong vale]

How about cloaked commando? Which can build tzars

[grizzled atlas]

Pov: armada player wakes up and the world is never the same again

[meager blade]

why do people have ?? as their os

[cinder field]

Why not just a built in AA, no ability to build nettle (thistle I guess) and also no additional EMP resist?

[hollow dawn]

I guess because that would require work to model an AA weapon

[fast obsidian]

AA on commando would be too very op but might as well do it, it's not like the balance isn't broken anyways

[pearl merlin]

The age of the commando will be fun

But also kinda toxic lmao

[fast obsidian]

They have proven they don't mind reducing the player base with dumb changes, commando would qualify perfectly as well.

[empty yew]

I think lowering commando price is a step towards players trying it more. After that we can see better where it under/over performs

Problem is that usage is so imcredibly low its hard to gauge the power

[grizzled atlas]

If commando price is 1000 I still make 2 shuirken and deal with it

And if you have air control you should just be bombing or using gunships or drops

[nocturne quail]

commando needs 2 flack and 3 sams confirmed

[west birch]

the existing commando weapon could also be allowed to target air. Wouldnt help much vs bombers etc, but could 1-shot shuriken when they get close

Still easy to overwhelm them with shuris if you have enough, but it'd give some fight at least

[grizzled atlas]

would it defeat t1 gunship?

[west birch]

would beat more than one. At least with current stats, the commando weapon actually does full damage vs air... it just can't target them now

[jaunty ore]

Hornet and I made that change in his balance pack and they do well vs trickling shuri's and can be like 1-3 t1 gunships, still get murdered by t2 air. Which I think was good. And like 5 shuri's still stuns 1 commando.

Plz help Gunslingers too, meta thread on that!

[sacred goblet]

I kill razorbacks with just stouts and blitzes

[tropic aurora]

Laser falloff but then they get flanking damage...

[meager blade]

Is it just me or do vehicles be getting stuck on a single wreck and no matter how u move it it doesnt get unstuck

[ancient lance]

that or giving commando a emp resistance?

also shuriken still a bit too strong what it is
too cheap and too fast to build
so either a nerf in the dps or a speed reduction?
or make them a bit more expensive metal wise?

gunship can't realy compete vs shuriken

[toxic island]

shuriken succ dicc

[scarlet mirage]

maybe buffing them a bit but also making them more costly could be good, makes building them a bit more of a comittal decision

[ancient lance]

more costly could be good because atm if you have the eco or the bp you can make like 20 and remove any leak problem

[ancient lance]

depend on the situation
it's still like a free stun for the most part and doesn't cost that much so you can just do fighter shuri fighter shuri without having any fighter wall problem

[scarlet mirage]

at the same time its kinnda annoying how many shuri will die to a horde of incisor before they halt its progress

[ancient lance]

also still advocating for a a nerf of the scout dps
tick/ rover / rascal or remove the flanking damage on them

[hollow dawn]

yeah you need way more shuri to kill incisor, pawn, etc now

[toxic island]

who wins same metal shuriken or same metal pawn and incisor kek

[grizzled atlas]

Use your lord and savior the llt or exploiter bomb

[hollow dawn]

they big nerfed compared to before and also set target micro is very good vs shuri

[grizzled atlas]

Shuirken are op tho a few units can resist it okay

[scarlet mirage]

if you can click on the little bastards

[hollow dawn]

you do set target circle drag

[ancient lance]

like i kinda agree when aa come you way shuriken will get shredded

mostly in team game but in 1v1 they shut down so many path for raid it's not even funny anymore

[hollow dawn]

they can seem stronger when you don't set target because they're lower priority than ground

but actually it's worth killing them asap with pawns etc

[scarlet mirage]

yeah you really wanna kill them first

that is also when cicle drag is likely to capture enemy ground units

so ur back to trying to click on them ;_;

[ancient lance]

also the eternal discussion of pawn vs grunt with grunt being still way too good
i'm thinking that the solution and the most easy one would be to do something with the centurion faster or cheaper and making it like a unit to combo with pawn
you can stop xfactor xD

[grizzled atlas]

I don't think the grunt is way too good. On certain map against 50+ os yeah it's hard to do pawn vs grunt but it's also hard to grunt vs incisor

[ancient lance]

the only limit is kinda the micro of them

[grizzled atlas]

If you insist on playing 1 lab it will be rough on some map imo

[ancient lance]

Yeah i completly agree about it but it's mostly because of grunt vs incisor matchup work incisor having the old range 230 vs 210 and more speed so it's still a micro battle with higher damage if you make a ball of incisor it's just gg

[grizzled atlas]

There's good map for arm bot and then there's good grunt map

[west birch]

could try nerfing shuri, and nerfing pawn/grunt/incisor... dmg vs air. So keep those matchups somewhat similar but shuri would be worse vs heavier units.

But they're in a decent spot rn overall

[hollow dawn]

I have an idea for equalizing the grunt-pawn matchup: we start by increasing pawn/blitz projectile velocity so chasing isn't as hard

[toxic island]

WHAT DA HELL DUDE

[hollow dawn]

and then that frees up other stats on grunt to be increased maybe

[toxic island]

pawn still giga imba, claps grunt all day and he want grunt nerf kek

[hollow dawn]

plus stat nerfs on pawn

[grizzled atlas]

It's like marine in sc2 or zerg in bw. With perfect micro it's unbeatable but it's the job of the other player to split their apm

[ancient lance]

i don't want a grunt nerf xfactor i just think it's a okay matchup with pawn but at equal level you kinda get kite to death even with 6 extra speed on pawn
so the idea is just having centurion being more easily available to stop a full on grunt spam

[grizzled atlas]

That's the one situation where grunt is best tho

Map traversal* raiding, killing com, killing heavier unit pawn is better

[scarlet mirage]

and killing llt faster kinna big deal

[ancient lance]

pawn are better at killing static than grunt

[grizzled atlas]

And cons

[fast obsidian]

pawns are super op past the first minutes and i like it, can snipe commander with 5 pawns again and wreck most units in the game with them, it's kinda chill.
Grunts only have like 2 or 3 minutes window of being usefull.

[scarlet mirage]

enemy makes grunt usefull by making tick and thats it lol xd

[grizzled atlas]

Dying to grunt feels awful but kiting is what it does. Map was grunt favored or you failed to split their apm before commiting

[west birch]

not just centurion, plasma/rocket bots could potentially be buffed to encourage using them, both over light bots and to make them less worse vs eventual t2

[grizzled atlas]

Well, they would need a respec because they are strong in lane and small map already

[scarlet mirage]

at the very least plasma bots should do a better job of zoning light bots

[fast obsidian]

oh yea lets break the balance for 90% of the game so 1v1 gameur can play something slightly less terrible, sure

[grizzled atlas]

Can't just straight buff them

[scarlet mirage]

i think that if you buff plasmabot accuracy its not gonna have a big impact on 8v8

[grizzled atlas]

Uhhh it matter when fighting light unit and dodging com

[ancient lance]

the balance in 1v1 is already pretty tedious
scout spam for 1-2 minute follow by a pawn / grunt spam
other unit exist but like who use them? In a normal open map (mostly bot one cause veh you kinda use all of them at least pounder / whistler and maybe janus if you feeling generous for not missed any shot )

[grizzled atlas]

Projectile speed is like the only weakness of thug

[toxic island]

time to make thug hitscan

[hollow dawn]

thug is quite strong in combat stats, it's just speed is too slow for larger 1v1 maps

[grizzled atlas]

Thug strong because of the giga repair

Without the repair it's just fine

[fast obsidian]

well yea everyone knows 1v1 sucks that's why very few play it
it's not a reason to make the actual game unplayable
which is already there since they removed spybots so might as well go for it actually

[ancient lance]

1v1 feel kinda nice when you go t2 but it's rarely the case and can end up in a t1 spam somwhere

[fast obsidian]

yea not many people enjoy making raiders units for 15 to 20 mins
this game only fun when you unlocked t2 and can play the real game

but with how 1v1 maps are design you never gonna get a real game mode

it has nothing to do with units but whatever

[grizzled atlas]

Technically it can be fixed with map design

[ancient lance]

if you talking about 1v1 map being realy big and with many raiding path i can agree

if we look into it for 1vs1 it's the t1 being too prominent and in teamgame there isn't enough t1 (for some people )

so what can we realy do

[half scaffold]

Delete 1v1, 3v3, 5v5, and 7v7. No odd numbers allowed

[fast obsidian]

idk but unbalancing the game mode that is being played by 90% of the player base isn't the way to go but like i said they already don't mind breaking balance randomly so if they do it for balancing 1v1 then it actually would be an improvement over the non sense they have been doing.

[next hawk]

I think this is a really understated point. SC1 (broodwar) virtually never got any balance patches yet is considered perfectly balanced despite have 3 completely different factions and having a competitive scene for over 20 years. This is because any perceived imbalance issues were handled by changing the map pool.

[grizzled atlas]

the question is "what size map do we want to be standard and diverse for 1v1"

[hollow dawn]

there's lots of unexplored space in map design even in just 1v1, it's just that making maps is harder here

[verbal yacht]

There should be more 1v1 maps where expansion routes exhaust relatively early so that games are more decided by attrition/strategy than nonstop raiding for 20 minutes

I think it’s a big part of why people like 8v8, it’s not necessarily just that everyone else is playing 8v8

[next hawk]

Well, what is the ideal gameplay are we aiming for? IE how long should t1 phase be? How long do we want raiding to be viable until players are forced to build something else? What are the factors that affect this? I think map size is one of them, but map features (eg choke points, cliffs, water, etc), the amount of metal on the map, available reclaim, and so on would also affect this.

From what I can see, the most popular 8v8 maps (glitters, istmus) have raiding last for up to 4-5 minutes than t2 naturally comes out between 6-10 minutes.

I think it's fine that there are maps that play out differently than this but it would be a mistake to make balance changes simply because the raiding phase on a particular map that is a flat open plain is just too long.

[grizzled atlas]

yeah it's an open ended question

is supporting larger 1v1 maps important to the playerbase? can it be done without messing up 8v8

If it were up to me I would disregard any balance complaint on flats and forests

the map is just as extreme as straits (when it comes to land geography only) due to being such a massive flat plain that obviously tiger/stout/fast tank will dominant

Need to take a more reasonable map (say 60% flat plains), and then see if bot vs veh is balanced

[next hawk]

What I'd like to see is an official map pool where balance discussions are to revolve around. I think a lot of people are basically talking over one another during balance discussions because people have drastically different experiences based on the maps and game modes they like to play.

On istmus, for example it's basically standard for pond to act as a battery and everyone seems fine with it whereas on glitters you're a dirty commie if you try to do the same thing.

[grizzled atlas]

on the other hand glitters does heavier tech funneling. and recently adopted the cursed but effective rainbow con commie

[strong vale]

Match making has to come first and seasonal map rotation, lets say each split lasts 3 months so 4 per season.

[grizzled atlas]

If BLT has problems cracking the spybot case maybe community should start designing and testing

There's no point in discussing endlessly but I'm sure some useful proposals can be found and testing done.

[subtle jasper]

There've been a few ideas floated. Non exhaustive list

Give up and rebalance cost around weakass emp with intent to make it primarily a scout unit.
Make it fire a strong one-shot-one-target emp gun with long-ass reload, and decloaks after firing for a while.
Return strong aoe emp and long countdown timer but decloak it while it's counting down.

[grizzled atlas]

It is indeed a design problem,

1. decide what the unit should be primarily capable of doing and countering
2. find solution that fufills that
3. ensure there is counterplay if appropriate

then test/balance after

[west birch]

The script limits how much you can test different things, you can't tweakdef a weapon on it atm.

And I'm loathe to adding too much stuff into a same modoption

[grizzled atlas]

you can't tweak spybot weapon because it's scripted? (just dmg aoe, emp max time, etc.)

[west birch]

It's scripted to die after firing

[grizzled atlas]

good to know

[grizzled atlas]

well yeh I wouldn't test spybot/hound neccesarily in same patch as the eco changes

seems best to test them separate

[verbal yacht]

I thought you can tweak spybot death blast just with some hoops to jump through

too lazy to define own weapon, but there’s a similar enough legion emp explosion you can use xD

er, not legion. Raptors I mean

[tropic aurora]

I liked my emp tweak. Spybots had negative edge, much higher damage, and all units took much higher damage to stun for the full duration. E.g. Instead of 1xhp for stunned, and 1.5xhp for 20s stun, make it 1x HP to stun, but 5x HP for 20s stun. Making T3 merely stagger, T2 stunned for a handful of seconds, and T1 stunned for a while.

Also means it takes 5x as many shuri to keep a raiding unit locked.

[grizzled atlas]

I agree that 1x hp = 0 sec , 1.2x hp = max duration is too extreme

should be something like 1.5x or 2x hp for 10s stun

[grizzled atlas]

do you have a link?

[tropic aurora]

All the numbers are wrong now due to patches since then. But the idea is the same #1337407508293095544 message

[subtle jasper]

Wow. Reading that thread was saddening.

[fast obsidian]

Let's keep spybots out of the game permanently, it's so fun to have fayboy and tzar be able to roam everywhere they want freely.
Game has been a lot better since that change, good jobs lads, it's nice to know balance team is doing a good job and not ruining gameplay for every single high OS lobby there is still left.
Surely this helped the high OS leaving.

[jaunty ore]

Can we fix the lame ass strat of cloaked coms walking out of sea under a sea jammer, it's range is totally busted for being a mobile jammer

Or give players a way to notice it, like making coms trigger anti stealth when they're jammed and cloaked, it's such obnoxious gameplay

[tropic aurora]

I think seismic stuff is currently getting a work over. Like it leaves extra wobbly radar dots that do get targeted

[jaunty ore]

if com doesn't show up on it the same low iq gameplay will continue

[shadow cedar]

I dont see why coms should be excempt from anti stealth.
But i have strong opinions on hidable commanders in general.

[tropic aurora]

Everything will turn up. Even... Crabs and penguins at the moment.

https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/pull/5693

[jaunty ore]

T2 radars provide perfect radar accuracy! What does that mean for the pin pointers? I agree T2 radars need something, they're so expensive, provide not that much more radar, and are still junoable so they feel pretty trash atm.

[grizzled atlas]

juno disabling radar/jammer towers continously in an area seems like the best part of juno rework before
It removes the minigame of "I can ignore juno's effects if I just rez/rebuild the tower instantly". This comes up late game, for example there was a game where I had a juggernaut on the shore and I juno'd but the player rebuilt jammer in 4 sec so they were back to jammed again.

Also removes the chore of rebuilding towers, and t2 towers being destroyed by a "tactical" weapon

[tropic aurora]

Pinpointers are slated to be removed.

[eternal osprey]

If pinpointer gets removed would t2 radar plane and/or support ship get the t2 accuracy? Mainly ask because pinpointer is pretty useful for coastal bombardment and on many maps there isn't land to place t2 radar to cover typical navy bombardment locations.

Just looked at the PR and there is a note about not forgetting navy so I assume it's being considered but I don't see any details.

[strong vale]

What if pinpointer goes to orbital vision. Like you project a beam and it spots an area. If there is jammer in range it "blocks" this beam. This jammer can't be junod. It would be new building. I am giving too much ideas.

[meager blade]

Juno not op juno kill jammer boo hoo wait 15 secs build another

[ancient lance]

the major problem i saw with cortex vs armada is that you aren't realy pressure into making fighter fast vs armada as cortex
because the gunship doesn't do anything much while shuriken can emp a whole army in 5 second
so basicly you kinda have to do a second lab which will be either realy good if he make air too or straight up useless

[jaunty ore]

Shuri are so strong, and can be made in reaction to a raid or leak. Which is a bit bullshit, if you want to defend yourself from bombers it's pretty rare you have the capacity to throw up enough AA to defend yourself from them in the time between they've been spotted and the time it takes them to get to your base. IMO shuri should be nerfed in their capcity to get places, so a huge speed nerf coupled with a hp buff, I don't wan't them to be useless, but they're ability to be made in reaction without needing to even think about whether you might need them and with no need to position them because they're so fast makes them so easy to use without any tactical or strategic thought. Enemy leak, make shuri, stop all damage cause shuri stop them. Completely different if you we ready for the leak with your 5 shuri, that actually requires watching the game and thinking ahead.

[eternal osprey]

I do think theres a lack of people who set target on shuri when they can too. They always get low target prio for g2g units but grunts/incisor/med tank balls even can kill them faster than most think if you set target.

Helps a lot more in 1v1 where you have more units to work with but still don't see it often enough I feel. Repeat micro on the shuri helps against this a bit but outside of a couple dozen folks I don't see that much either.

(not saying shuri not strong but there is a bit of micro counterplay that isn't used enough)

[ancient lance]

Its also a very cheap way to like completly negate t2 push

The biggest problem imo
You can infinite stun and it s high dps
Arm does have his EMP but it s t2 and does cost a bit

The problem is how easily available it is and how fast it can stun

If the shuriken are upon your army you can say goodbye to it

It s gonna bé weird opinion but make EMP unit availsble at T2 only?

Because shuriken is just too strong because the EMP is too strong

And EMP as a whole is a game change because you always have unit available to kill or push EMP unit

[jaunty ore]

I remember hearing a proposal to make EMP not completely disable the unit, I think it was going to just disable it's movement maybe reduce it's attack speed? Which would make stunning ship fleets a lot less devastating, it would also mean emping AA would only do so much as it'd only stop moving but still attack the air units. Idk.

Your idea about EMP only being T2 is interesting but it leas me to think that a Weak and Strong EMP distinction could be interesting, Shuri inflicting the weak could just disable movment and then the T2 EMP like EMP missiles and Stilletos could still do the current the EMP. Just throwing shit out there tbh.

[eternal osprey]

Honestly I never liked emp in the first place, I'd be happy to see shuri changed into t2 and get something different in t1

[tropic aurora]

That was part of the emp rework

[ancient lance]

if the unit could run away it would at least be something

[crisp bison]

Can you elaborate to what extent Shuri EMP is game-breaking? How can they stun entire armies? Doesn't AA units supposed to help with that?

[pearl merlin]

just reduce stun time on shuriken to 3-5 seconds

so that a larger group of shuriken is needed to stun an army rather than 1 shuriken being able to stun 2-3 units

1 shuriken shutting down 3 rovers is a bit overtuned

[empty yew]

I think EMP would be better if it only disabled weapons/buildpower/energyproduction etc, not movement.

Would dodge the OP issue of feeding armies and could even be used more in such rebelance if needed

[tropic aurora]

Wouldn't it be more funny to do the opposite. Keep the weapons but not the movement?

[eternal osprey]

I think this would be too much of a nerf no? (said as someone who would prefer no emp) Most units kill shuri fast if they fire at them, and how would that work against porc while staying consistent?

[jaunty ore]

That's a great suggestion!

[tropic aurora]

Make it so the first level of stun, at 1x unit HP, just slows or disables movement. And only when you've done like 10x HP does it also stop the weapons.

[eternal osprey]

Yeah that's fine, wasn't that what emp rework kinda did? (not with same values but similar tiered system)

I can't recall if it was movement or weapons stunned first though, I wasn't a huge fan of how it was implemented so I only played it a dozen times or so.

[grizzled atlas]

suggestion i had was shuriken has charges on its weapon so it fires slower after 4-6 shots

lets you use shuriken to catch leak and ambush army but not lock it down forever

[tropic aurora]

My one did the same a different way. Same effort to stun but took 5x as many shuri to keep a unit locked down.

[empty yew]

Disabling movement would have issues with consistency when EMPing stationary stuff. Better to disable abilities, weapons, active stuff IMO. Also fixes the "raiding = feeding" issue

[lunar hollow]

It wouldn't be inconsistent if you changed all the EMP beams only

An EMP as we know it is usually a field anyways and not a beam so it would make sense if abductor shuri thor side lasers etc only disabled movement and got renamed to tractor beam

[meager blade]

Why should they be able to run it’s literally a emp on robots. These things run on wires and electricity the emp would fry rheir circuits for a bit

[empty yew]

Gameplay wise emp is a problem because raiding = feeding, so its porc time. Hard to balance emp if every raid is metal donation. If units could still move but not shoot, you disable the threat but dont make them donate units. Such emp can be balanced

[meager blade]

Idk if i would even consider emp if that happened i mean why would i choose to invest in something that is supposed to benefit me but ends up not really benefiting cause they just run the units away and my emp got no value cause my units couldnt catch up before they dove back into unstunned units or static. I dont think it would balance it i think it would make most emp stuff except for shuris irrelevant even shuris would lose alot of value cause now they have to attempt to not only keep up with ticks but hit them constantly while ticks are just running around that would be micro hell

I assume the biggest issue you have is shuris and abductors why not just lessen the emp value so it doesnt stun as fast

Of said units

[empty yew]

Personally i would make it stun weaponry, bp, E/M production and abilities, but also slow down EMPd units by 33%. I think a lot would die but some could escape. Emp wouldnt be so black and white which IS an issue

[meager blade]

How would this effect naval fights

[scarlet mirage]

ppl play navy?

[shadow cedar]

Why make emp a wishy washy silence?
I know its strong but just make sure there is sufficient counterplay. Maybe give t1 aa a bunch of stun resistance.

Game is better with interesting units that are good at their job.

The part that seems op to me and does not make sense...
It takes 7 shoots to fill the stun meter on a cortex medium tank. But only one shot every 6 seconds to refresh the 6sec stun.

Why not make the shuriken work the same for each stun?

Many games even have stun resistance after stun to prevent chain stunning. Something like that would make sense to me instead of removing all stun from the game.