#Season 2 balance feedback

1 messages · Page 4 of 1

stray oasis
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have we considered reverting any of the changes from
https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/commit/673d971301800ee9cded2b93bdc5ff740c733d79
To make vehicles more affected by slopes? Almost all maps are pretty flat right now, shouldnt vehicles be more affected by slopes like they used to be?

GitHub
Vehicle/hover slopemod changes · beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reas...

A light slopemod of 18 added to scouts, flash/gator. Medium slopemod of 25 added to most veh/hovers. Heavy slopemod of 36 for large T2 arty, goliath, halberd. Thor given slopemod of 42 to counte...

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the maps in the playpool in 2022 were much more hilly so it was much more part of the meta for vehicles to be garbage on hilly maps, but hilly maps are way out of meta now and vehicles seem pretty op :c

plucky vessel
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They are still badly affected by slopes, it's just that like you said, maps with hills that make vehs feel bad are out of vogue right now. :3c On maps with a lot of hills, it's still enough to make bots worth building.

I don't think we'd consider reverting that change cuz vehs as a whole aren't a problem. If you made too many maps suddenly become bot-required, core would be in even worse shape on hilly maps because the pawn is too op.

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I have an idea. Give the Sprinter the op pawn stats, cost and everything. Nerf the pawn to a reasonable level. Fixed two units at once. JuniperGrin

hollow dawn
stray oasis
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but now we dont play coastlines dry rarely or like tabula taldrarim

west birch
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just happens that 2 most popular maps have basically zero terrain where either bot hill passability or slope modifiers would matter

plucky vessel
# stray oasis but now we dont play coastlines dry rarely or like tabula taldrarim

We do, and those are still very much bot maps. If you mean the playerbase as a whole, though, they only ever played isthmus and glitters, which are completely flat maps anyway.

it made them more balanced vs bots

it was too pronounced and made it hard to create maps that could accommodate both labs. Even now on a map like Bismuth, the hills are so steep it takes twice as long for most vehicles to crawl between lanes. There is no reason to make that worse.

But anyway, this is a thread about season 2 change feedback. If you want new changes, make a new thread.

plucky vessel
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If you want to see more bots, the main reason bots aren't more widely used on mixed maps is twofold. Banishers are the meta, and with Spy Bots so overnerfed, nothing in either of the t2 bot labs really stops them except late game units. At the same time, pawns are so op and grunts so bad that Cor bots simply can't fight t1 arm bots with equal army value unless you are a god of micro.

Banishers are therefore the only thing keeping Cor relevant, and thanks to the pawn, Cor doesn't want to ever go bots vs arm bots, so either they go vehs anyway for pounders and eventual banishers, or they just go arm and make pawn go brr.

I only play Cor, so I still go bots on hilly maps, but I'm considering not doing that because I love Banishers so much. :3c

verbal yacht
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feels like with the current balance the only maps to go bots on for terrain reasons is like the extreme side hills of rock jungle

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veh still better on hilly maps like carrot mountains

stray oasis
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Otherwise veh are just advantage every map

grizzled atlas
verbal yacht
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t2, usually you see t1 bots happen even on flat maps

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theres good reasons to go either t1 bots or t1 veh and often in games you have to get both to play optimally, but t2 veh is generally just overall better at everything than t2 bots atm with the exception of butler wind eco, or simply being the cheaper t2 con

grizzled atlas
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It does seems like vehicle overpowers bots. mauser/quaker are very good and in their role imo out peform hound, and recluse (nerfed rightfully) and even sheldon by a bit. I only play flat maps so I can't judge for hilly maps. Plus you have jag/salamander, bots lacks fast anti leak or super punchy raiding

Tiger banisher is the king of roaming aggression. starlight pawn is the king of team pushing.
Banisher basically can solo deal with cor bots if you get a few out.

verbal yacht
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well t2 veh are generally more power dense than t2 bots, and power density is one of the primary reasons for going t2 in the first place, spybot is a perfect counter to power dense units (its less good against spammy shit) so vehicle player still have to respect spybots even if they have the 3x better units

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arm bots feels shitty on hilly maps anyway cuz snipers are direct los shooting so the terrain stops you shooting/using your full range anyway often

grizzled atlas
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spybot should definitely be effective against clumped t2 units (maybe not AS large radius), t3 is arguable (maybe 2 to stun t3)
but with more counterplay and less apm tax (support the antinuke being anti stealth + units auto target stealth detected units)

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yeah also playing bots feels ass because any gunship spam or bombing ruins you

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sheldon or sniper push is a sitting duck vs surprise air

verbal yacht
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flak truck is always weirdly tanky which is kinda weird, im not sure if thats the case to balance it against dragons or what but lately im often trying to facetank enemy units with flak trucks so that my other units stay healthier cuz i know the flak truck can afford to eat a lot of damage without dying

grizzled atlas
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huh.

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i skimp on flak truck so they are far too valuable to lose imo

verbal yacht
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well they have 2600 hp, very mobile, and small hitbox, already paid for it anyway its fine if it tanks a few shots it adds more value to your main army and can help mitigate more damage than they take by dodging shots

crisp bison
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2600 isn't a lot, just saying

crisp bison
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Vehicles are more power-dense. Even in T1 they provide better stats, whichever one you pick. It comes at a cost of having less of them.
The problem is mostly particular bots that do not work is their intended role very well. Hounds do not work with plasma any better than Recluses, which also were nerfed, Sprinters are overpriced Blitz, rolling bombs are mostly metal thrown into the wind, Termites are all-terrain coffins, and so on. You can't really say the same thing about the vehicle labs, where aside from the moderate utility of amphibious tanks, you have a selection of tools all well-suited and balanced for particular role.

So botlabs just need some attention to reevaluate the strength and utility of the outliers. They still have some great units like Ducks and Plati's that vehicles have no analogues to. Spybots are hard to make an informed judgement on until they become EMP-immune.

Banishers are fine, but the 360 turret is what make it appear broken. Imagine Mausers/Quakers with a 360 turret - not even 50% price increase across the board would help to alleviate the power spike. Otherwise, it has the performance expected from its price, which wasn't the case previously.

grizzled atlas
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had the thought of using torp bombers after finishing with the sea to tank for bombers / figs

shadow fractal
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imo flak truck is actually unironically a bit op, iirc they're better in all stats per cost than static flak, while also being mobile

grizzled atlas
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it is op, static flak does have more fire power and aoe IF the enemy flies over it

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but can be killed even with bombers

balmy tapir
# shadow fractal imo flak truck is actually unironically a bit op, iirc they're better in all sta...

Buildings in general need a pass over.
Walls as well. I'd like t2 walls cost reduced to make them more seen
with flak needing drastic cost reduction I think.
500?
Theyve been designed around easily being able to be killed by units. As a whole I feel like Buildings are too expensive for what they are providing as a whole. So either nobody builds them, or people get flamed for it. I'd be better off bulding a t2 veh factory for AA as a whole
Rattlesnake, And Flak especially for buildings

fading lagoon
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Balance is so broken. i gained 12 OS in FFA by just spamming razorbacks. Nothing can stop it

ancient lance
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i mean it's ffa

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it's the rule of ffa that suck

plucky vessel
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Honestly, I am not sad about the Banisher nerf. lilyBlush Last night I think I understood.

Using Banishers: "OH YEAH THIS IS AWESOME SPRIIING"

Using Banishers while someone else is using even more Banishers: "lilyFrown Okay this sucks."

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No pawn nerf and/or grunt buff though. Guys. If you just nerf the Banisher and don't fix this other issue we're just going right back into yet another Arm meta. lilyFrown

grizzled atlas
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maybe someone should make a tiger usage video

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tiger is one of those units that is lack luster / situational in 8v8 but I hear is great in small teams and 1v1

plucky vessel
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Did the Tzar also need to be nerfed? Uh, maybe? But it was also one of the only things Cor could do. No pawn nerf on top of it feels bad.

grizzled atlas
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wait did a new patch hit?

plucky vessel
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Yeah

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Spy bots being EMP immune again, though? Good change. lilyHappy2

fast obsidian
plucky vessel
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Yeah even EMP immune spy bots aren't much to tigers anymore. lilyBlush You'd need a couple of them to even do anything.

plucky vessel
grizzled atlas
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do you make 10 rez bots with the tigers or what?

plucky vessel
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You could. Probably should anyway, rezbots op. lilyBlush

grizzled atlas
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vs lightly supported artillery or if you are loaded with cash i think the tigers are good

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vs some porc i find it's better to use units that don't eat porc shots

plucky vessel
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Banishers. lilyHappy3

grizzled atlas
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it's like rocket bot vs thug pattern. thug has better statline but you can take a lot of dmg losses from hitting porc

plucky vessel
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You build them with the tigers. They kill anything.

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Banisher kept 360 turret and the LoS buff, so they're still a very mobile comp, it's just harder to turn Banishers around now. lilyHappy2

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Kinda necessary. They were surprisingly nimble, actually.

grizzled atlas
plucky vessel
grizzled atlas
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seems very good

plucky vessel
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If the Banisher still costs less than 23k energy then the patch isn't fully live yet. lilyBlush

grizzled atlas
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banisher being 360 makes it much more noob friendly to use
lower turning and accel def make sense if 360

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tzar build time is acceptable, tzar gained a lot of power post spybotnerf and sneaky pete (previously those 2 oppressed it A LOT)

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and with banisher as an option vs mobile jammer (although tzar --> banisher is like fucking all in if you do it without boost as a techer)

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it's not common but it slightly nerfs the meme 3 tzar commie (i've only seen that commie like 5 times in all my games lol. and micro'd decently like once)

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with 10 sec of stun time i think you can kill banisher with recluse + spybot

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not easy but can be done with 3 spiders

west birch
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Changelog update is included, if you don't see that then the lobby you're in is playing on older version

hollow dawn
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oh, that's a part of the game itself? didn't know that

plucky vessel
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lilyBlush I like the changes it's just that

no grunt buff? KasenCracking
no pawn nerf? KasenDespair

ARM META #56 INCOMING lilySob

grizzled atlas
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that's the problem with funnel. with solo techer there's a limit to how fast you assemble certain death comps or rush more than 1 sniper.
the only reason why 2-3 sniper or tzar banisher can arrive quickly is funnel

plucky vessel
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Or maybe Banishers are still meta anyway who knows. LilyHappy4

woeful fiber
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Im not a fan of this "make it feel like shit to micro" balancing style that has been trending ngl

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Banisher is a noob tube unit now, that is simply way to easy to use, so the idea is to make it drive like crap, feel bad to pilot, make it alittle eaier to run down, but leave the core issue of its ease of use intact.... I dunno guys.

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Traditional counter to arty has always been get in behind them. Now there is an arty unit that more or less wants you to chase it for maximum effectivness as it gets to use its impulse to more or less CC anything chasing it.

grizzled atlas
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If the banisher has lack of support you can just run it down with med tanks. Or spam

woeful fiber
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Med tanks, T2 walls, Tzars...

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So we want the "effective" counters to also be in the veh lab 🙂

grizzled atlas
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Even quaker mauser can trade with banisher and try to run it down if it doesn't have support

woeful fiber
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Im not fully on board with giving it pass due to "needing support" as that is more or less every unti with a big gun

grizzled atlas
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I dunno what to do with veh vs bots but these maneurability and bp nerf does improve Sheldon's a bit

woeful fiber
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I just kinda wanna raise the alarm that its starting to feel like the current fall back for solving balance issues is making the units slower/worse to play with.

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This is like the 3rd unit in the last few months that got some kind of handeling debuff

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Why keep the 360 smooth brain gun style and nerf its movment as opposed to put the 270 firing and make it turn a bit faster and maintain the games consitent lack of direct rear fire artilery units?

grizzled atlas
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On the flip side I think mauser/quaker is too speedy

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That thing is a com hunter

woeful fiber
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Well that was a flavor choice made awhile back

grizzled atlas
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Very Much a gameplay change

woeful fiber
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yeah flavor proly the wrong word there

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Im just kinda floored we go thorugh all this wysiwyg, consistency changes etc and then suddenly its like THIS arty shoots 360 degrees now!

grizzled atlas
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Technically it's a skirmisher

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Like a sheldon but later game

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You make a good point it would be higher skill floor and skill cap with higher turn but 270 fire

tardy basin
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1- ✅ Restore EMP immunity
2- EMP damage => 10K (need 1,2 * HP), the idea is fresh tzar/fatboy => stunned with 1 spybot, but fastly need 2 with xp hp increase, 2 for razors
3- ✅ ParalyzeTime => 10s or 12s (20s for builds)
4- Cloak cost => 25/50
5- Reduce blast radius to keep effectivity on small group of t2 light ball and keep stun on few units for big one
6- Intrusion Countermeasure System with energy operating cost of 50e/s
7- Add stealth-detector capability on mobile AN

grizzled atlas
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what do you think about the arm vs cor cost difference
for spybot

tardy basin
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If you don't update EMP damage, at least lower the E &/or BP cost, they still cost a lot of E & BP (even more for cor one) for their impact with just 5k emp damage

stray oasis
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bantha needs to be stunnable its too op if u cant spybot it even a little

grizzled atlas
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since it slows down your other units/mexes, and building additional con turrets is pricey

grizzled atlas
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how do you deal with most t2? spybot

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razor? spybot
marauders? if they are going to your base? spybot

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porc? spybot
any t3? spybot

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having whole game revolve around spam + spybot minigame is aids

stray oasis
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literally any supporting unit to unstealth the spybot

fast obsidian
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unless you were playing versus someone that knew how to play and wouldn't let himself get spybotted for free lol

grizzled atlas
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you can use sumo or beamer/hlt to make it impractical to keep spam wall up 24/7

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why don't we design the game so you can counter higher tier units with specialized units

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not some generic spybot that is the answer to over half the game
and is cheap enough to spam later on

fast obsidian
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yea that's an option but that's a lot harder to do than just keep spybot and nerf it properly instead of redisigning whole game

grizzled atlas
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yeah they can buff spybot for the time being

fast obsidian
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and non player game balancer aren't even able to do it so they just break the game and leave us with a shit game

prime ermine
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the game is kind of balanced on the current knowledge of the player base, if the skill increases (you start trying new strats) the balance swings again and you have another case of balance issue. Spybots always been op, but only got nerfed once ppl start using it, logic and very much deserved nerf though, all emp units are too strong (cough emplauncher).

If you now say Titan is OP have you tried all possible combinations of counters instead of relying on hard counters (its stunnable) of the same cost. Its easy to say titan is op when titan is in your base and you spent zero metal on trying to counter it with the proper force. Titan is rather weak vs spam/range/air.

Issue here is nerfs/buffs are done before proper counters evolved by trying harder instead of relying on mono-spam compositions.

The game auto-balances with time due to new skills evolves, and in some instances there can be no counter at all, im not saying spybot didnt have counters but the player base could not put up with a constant stream of spybots becoming a chore to deal with, its still counterable with ics + tick spam or equivalent but who got apm for that, agreed.

Will BAR be 100% tryhard game? Probably never if constant nerfs/buffs are made to please the crowd. What does happen though with these balance changes is some units become OP for the high os players that do tryhard. The units become 'broken' and is then nerfed based on this or some other unit buffed, which then makes the buffed unit too OP against something else, a constant chain of misbalance.

This is why its silly to balance based on crowd, and high OS will always feel the devs caters to casuals and thats probably true due to without casuals you have a game like SC:BW where there is few ppl left behind and all are tryhards.

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Which is why i still wonder why Banisher was buffed in the first place 🙂

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For me personally its fun to see new balance changes due to trying to find out where the unit got broken. In case of Banisher i dont see anything broken though, only lack of skill countering it, then blaming the balance changes made it too strong, while its 95% same unit as 6 months ago where noone was using it. Difference here being the balance change caused ppl to try it in the first place and as noone has any experience countering it, it will be painful, and the obvious super easy counters of spybot vs everything is gone, though it still works vs banisher 🙂

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Thats why i also dont understand reverting/nerfing Banisher change yesterday either, both buffing spybot and nerfing banisher and the same time, is banisher any worse now? I dont think so, is spybot better? Definitely due to mass spybots can be used and stun length 8->10 is significant. Spybots should be back on the table.

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The proper spybot nerf would be raising its price so there is an investment into spamming it, now you can fail many spybots in a row and only need one succesful and ure plus trade wise

grizzled atlas
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coop banisher loses to coop arm veh lab i think. since you can get 1-2 starlights out to fend it off (or better yet make mausers first for impact)

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unless the map is extremely open, even then there's counter play you can transport mausers everywhere and try to avoid the banishers

plucky vessel
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I'm not really all that broken up about that. What I am happy about tho is that I'm not seeing people use less Banishers overall in non-rush scenarios. I think people have caught on that the Banisher is a force to be reckoned with and are respecting it as such. :3c

grizzled atlas
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banisher is a bit stifling against recluse/bull/hound but bull/recluse are very good units

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and it's a bit of dumbed down unit with 360 fire + 800 range + good turning, that's a valid complaint

plucky vessel
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Hounds do have a window to be useful now that Banishers aren't so easy to make early in the game. I am noticing a lot more people go Hounds in typical games, but of course once the Banishers do come out, the Hounds' days are numbered. :3c

grizzled atlas
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i find recluse better

plucky vessel
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You definitely need a fusion now for Banishers, so they're not an early game unit, but it seems if you want a single high-impact unit, Tzars have gone back to being the go-to in some games.

grizzled atlas
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much more dmg against porc that matters. hound is probably... alright

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you can see them use bull in tourney even though they disappeared for a while in glitters

plucky vessel
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where? The timestamp is at the end of video interviews

grizzled atlas
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43:30
pog vs ape game 2

tropic ibex
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If banisher and tzar was nerfed. So do straight and sniper should be nerfed too. They also is the killer of cortex t2 vehicle.

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Starlight is cheaper and more powerful than banisher. and it is often safer and could fire more times. Even they are instant damage which could destory cortex T2 vehicle .

plucky vessel
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here we go again. :3c

tropic ibex
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cortex t3 could easily be smashed by starlight and sniper

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but cortex cant handle with armada t3. the only thing cortex can do is use unit to melee with armada t3 which is dumbed and looks like a retard.

prime ermine
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from mono-composition then ya

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but if you use the arsenal you have starlight/snipers not op

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banisher/starlight cost wise is pretty much same

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they are meant to be 'equivalent' though they are not used equivalently

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arm/cor should not be equals in how you use their arsenal, that would make it utterly boring

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cor focus on brute force and armada on tactics (like starlight/sniper, though they are weak, easy to kill)

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though that doesnt mean there are no tactics for cor, cor can use its arsenal cleverly even though they got strong units, just because its brute force doesnt mean you throw it away without trying to make better trades

plucky vessel
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When I was new, I thought just like Sakayanagi. Now that I'm a bit more seasoned, though, I kinda get it. :3c

Starlights can only fire directly in front of them and cost 1000 energy to do so each time. That's a lot. If you want to make them do anything, you basically have to decidate an entire fusion or more for just a handful of them, and if they overextend, they absolutely cannot run away and live. If you get tigers behind them, they're dead.

Banisher don't care about none of that. :3c Banisher runs out of E, turns its ass around, and laughs at you anyway cuz it's still extremely dangerous.

prime ermine
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starlight is good as long as you have the momentum, when momentum stops, the starlight is now a frontline unit (cannon fodder)

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when momentum stops the best way would be to t2transport em back, aint no way you turn around and flee 😄

scarlet mirage
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cortex t2 tech is only allowed to be playable for a month at a time op

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maybe buff sala so there is 1 unit to build early that makes sense?

prime ermine
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1 tiger > 2 sala

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sala was nerfed so hard its now a shoreline unit more than frontline

plucky vessel
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When Banishers were cheap enough to make in early t2, they were oppressive because sometimes it feels like literally nothing can deal with them effectively except starlights, but even then, it's not so clear cut. It takes a few shots, and then if Banishers get their shots off too and get them chaining, the Banishers can win. :3c They have identical LoS now and the range difference is very, very small.

prime ermine
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ofc sala still usable but you would be better off with tigers anyway if its frontline for many reasons

plucky vessel
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and Snipers are like one of the only things in the arm t2 bot lab that's not directly hard countered by the Banisher, but once again, if they get the shots off, the snipers are dead, and each Tiger takes three shots from a sniper to die, and Tiger/Banisher is a very mobile comp you can ball up and put on the same hotkey no problemo.

scarlet mirage
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well viable sala is needed for protecting quakers which are kinnda viable by themselves but jags are such far better support for arty they make no sense to build

prime ermine
plucky vessel
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Nice. :3c

prime ermine
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you dont even have to show you have a sniper yet (hold fire)

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if banisher happens to xp up to tank 1-shot from sniper you need some flank, rush 10 ticks in to shoot banisher once from any direction, should give enough to finish with a single sniper shot

plucky vessel
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I honestly don't find sharpshooters nearly as bad as I used to. Cuz the sharpshooters definitely also die in one shot and can't level up to not die to a Banisher. :3c

prime ermine
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the flanking part doesnt even have to be from ground army, could be a single banshee too, or shuriken

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and yes shuris do add flank dmg LUL

plucky vessel
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So there's play and counterplay here. :3c

prime ermine
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there always is, but its easier to complain than to find the solution 😄

plucky vessel
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Honestly, after using Banishers a lot more, they feel pretty good even against Razors. I'm not so upset they aren't starlights anymore. Cuz if the Starlights don't kill the thing it's shooting at on the first pass, and that thing keeps walking toward them, the starlights can't turn around and keep firing.

Banisher definitely can. lilyHappy3

prime ermine
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with that said banishers shouldnt even be a thing, but they are so now use the counterplay to remove em from meta again 😄

plucky vessel
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You'll take my Banishers from my cold dead hands. RanMad

prime ermine
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tzar > banisher for many reasons, HP is one, it doesnt insta die

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now with op spybots again, 2 spybots will be able to stun Tzar for 10 secs, so its gonna be difficult again for Cortex users

plucky vessel
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I love building Tzar as my first unit out of the t2 lab. But there's a definite advantage to having one Tzar and not only Tzars. :3c

For one thing, if you try to put Tzars with an army, it's about halfway across the map behind all the other units.

tropic ibex
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how can cortex destory Starlight

plucky vessel
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Grunt spam is an option. :3c

prime ermine
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tacnuke, tremor, any spam + tigers

grizzled atlas
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starlight is just long range dps if it has a billion pawn with it it's invincible
almost

prime ermine
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there are plenty options, even shuris

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arbiter/negotiator could also work

tropic ibex
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all are expensive than Starlight

prime ermine
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starlights pretty stationary and cant turn to flee, they gotta move forward in that case to avoid

plucky vessel
tropic ibex
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even need use 2000m to kill Starlight

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in 88 narrow front will use more metal

plucky vessel
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$unit negotiator

finite ridgeBOT
prime ermine
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to be honest ambassador/negotiator should be meta, have 2-3 of those aim at different locations (lesser overkill dmg) and you pick enemy HP apart pretty quickly to do a brute force move with grunts/tanks/fiends

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its also great for hitting OP buildings, like pulsar, if that exist, or sniper/starlights

plucky vessel
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These have massive AoE and two of them one-shots a Starlight. :3c

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Even if all you do is make them turn around, you're winning.

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You can chase with tigers safely.

prime ermine
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tigers pretty much hardcounter to starlights if we exclude the tremor/negotiator play

tropic ibex
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use negotiator to kill Starlight just like a dream

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only need move

prime ermine
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a single tremor will be able to nullify 5-6 starlights on its own

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tremor aims 'infront' of its enemy meaning if starlight dont turn around it dies, and if it goes forward it runs into tigers or other spam

tropic ibex
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so how can cortex handle t3

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armada handle t3 just use sniper and Starlight is enoughf

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but cortex need melee

plucky vessel
# tropic ibex only need move

Even pros lose Starlights to Ambassadors and Negotiators. :3c

#1353364944350871632 message Watch this YouTube video up here at like 43:30 or so. Eventually there's starlights and what does the other team do to counter it? Ambassadors. Forces them to retreat. :3c Cor has effectively the same option.

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Cor's is also cheaper and slightly better.

tropic ibex
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Starlight could kill tremor under its attack

plucky vessel
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Just because you haven't made it work doesn't mean it's not an option.

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It works. It's what people do vs Starlights.

prime ermine
# tropic ibex armada handle t3 just use sniper and Starlight is enoughf

the assumption you have there is that the t3 user is dumb, ie not using its arsenal to strike starlight/snipers first before moving t3 in, which might actually be the case in most pub lobbies so understandable assumption, but if the t3 user gets tacnukes/tremors/negotiators/emplauncher/ambassadors to strike first, then it will be a different story for the t3 user.

T3 against armada is supposed to be stopped by stronger units like sniper/liche/starlights/emplauncher/pulsar, its just good counters to it

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Some T3's are even countered by spam, like Marauder/Titan, which is awful at aoe

plucky vessel
prime ermine
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one tremor and a bunch of tigers, will go a long way

tropic ibex
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cortex t2 vehicle is weak than armada t2 vehicle in my opinion

plucky vessel
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That's kind of the thing with Cor units. They don't have as many glaring weaknesses to exploit. :3c You can't outflank Banishers, and while Banishers were as cheap as they were, most of the Armada T2 lab couldn't exist at all because Banisher hard counters all of it.

prime ermine
plucky vessel
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Only Starlight even mattered vs Banishers, and if they already had a Banisher ball, which they could bc it's cheap, the banisher ball can drive forward first and win, then turn around and retreat and keep firing if enemy reinforcements arrive. It's a lot harder to hit Banishers with Ambassadors because they can always keep moving and never fear turning around.

tropic ibex
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if banisher is op why cant buff Starlight

plucky vessel
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What?

prime ermine
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banisher is not op, its not better than tzar 🙂

tropic ibex
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so why nerf

prime ermine
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a Tzar stops banishers completely from moving forward, while if you repair it can be indefinitely

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The nerf comes from complaints from literally everyone, but imo its not even a real nerf, its the same unit really

plucky vessel
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Banisher is better than Tzar for two things: Tzar's gun is really slow to turn, and Tzar itself is really slow and has less range. Banisher outranges Tzar and enough Banishers can one-shot it.

But I like the Tzar tho. :3c Banishers are definitely a lot easier to spam.

tropic ibex
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but Starlight and banisher are in the same position in their army

plucky vessel
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It's not really a nerf. It's just more expensive so you don't see them until later in t2. You'll still build them. They still do the same things as before.

plucky vessel
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Banisher is more like a very powerful Sheldon. It's a Skirmisher. It can hit and run.

tropic ibex
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middle range attacker

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thats my mean

plucky vessel
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Starlight is more of a tip of the spear that drives forward and wins the game if you have what it takes to power them and never stop driving forward, but if it ever can't do that, it's gonna die and probably take all its friends out with it. They are incredibly slow to turn, even slower than the Banisher post-nerf.

prime ermine
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starlight keeps the push going, if there is any strong unit coming, starlight will remove a big chunk of HP making it easier to kill

plucky vessel
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Starlight has turnrate 120.8
Banisher, 250. That's post-nerf. More than twice as fast when turning.

raw sigil
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banshier still hard to stop starlight now,why you still think banshier need nerf?

plucky vessel
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I don't think they need a nerf. I just don't think they need a buff.

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I like Banishers. :3c

raw sigil
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well cor t2 veh still have banshier,but rip,cor t2 bot lab have nothing to stop starlight

plucky vessel
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I kind of agree with this. There's spy bots, but our spy bots are still ultra-expensive for some reason. JuniperOhNo

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Cor t2 bot lab does need something with a more impactful long-ranged burst and not rely on the Sheldon for everything. I'm sick of making sheldon balls but it's all Cor t2 bots has.

raw sigil
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sheldon is toooo expensive,and im not sure 4 Sheldon can win 1 starlight

plucky vessel
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Well, they can if they're EMP'd. It's just that Cor's spy bot costs what seems like 50% more to build and otherwise just have 80 more hp. 3:

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There's Skuttles tho if you're brave op. JuniperGrin

grizzled atlas
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sheldon is not great into starlight
if you catch them you can kill them but doesn't really scale

plucky vessel
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Fiends are fine if you stun them, but ye. There's not much actual fightin' to be done at long range against Starlights in Cor Bots. JuniperOhNo

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Arbiters have way less AoE and upfront damage, so it's a lot harder to kill them that way.

chilly heath
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May 2025 Balance Patch

  • [Spybot]
    • Emp immune again. This means you can use 2 spybots simultaneously to stun a tzar or a marauder for example.
    • Max stuntime vs units 8 -> 10.
  • [Banisher]
    • Energycost 17000 -> 23000.
    • Small nerf to handling. Turnrate 300 -> 250, Acceleration 0.2269 -> 0.2.
  • [Tzar]
    • Buildcost 26100 -> 30000. This slows down the rush slightly, but also makes repairs a bit slower.
grizzled atlas
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yeah repair on tzar makes sense

prime ermine
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its 52 HP/s per rezbot, compared to banisher 22 HP/s, #1151586222930661428 message

grizzled atlas
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banisher has hefty bp cost and low hp
one of the slowest hps repairs

dusty cave
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welcome to Beyond all Armada

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🥳

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Can you tell me banisher and tzar op where did you get the data, supreme?

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lmao

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very funny update

hollow dawn
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meowcatmeow told me 🐱

ancient lance
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The patch is not that relevant for 1vs1 anyway

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Maybe the spybot change

dusty cave
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I just think, since we have to adjust tzar and banisher, then starlight and sniper it must also be adjusted

ancient lance
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I dont think it s a bad patch i kind of agree the nerf to banisher could have been something else maybe like a reload speed nerf?

dusty cave
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very op units for a long time

ancient lance
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Like Sheldon ball like lot unit

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Their weakness have always been spam for Starlight and shooter

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The worst thing to encounter in game is someone using the widget ignore spam target high metal target

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Seen it twice maybe more wasn t fun

dusty cave
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When you meet armsnipe and armzeus or armmanni and armlatnk, if you're playing cortex, then my advice is to leave the keyboard and die

ancient lance
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Tiger grunt spam counter a lot of thing

dusty cave
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The best thing about spam is still Armada instead of cortex

ancient lance
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With a juno

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Yeah i agree but with a juno arm spam become worse

dusty cave
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Juno, is expensive. Although grunt, he won't be killed by juno, but he has to spend one 43m840e

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or 860e？

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expensive too

ancient lance
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Less than pawn

dusty cave
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y

ancient lance
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And the bp of pawn got nerf

dusty cave
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Juno will increase the cost of attack on the opposite side, but if there is no juno on the opposite side, then tick will be very cost-effective

ancient lance
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Yes

dusty cave
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All things considered, restraint Armada he's the only one

ancient lance
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The matchup arm vs cortex all come to can cortex make veh lab if yes you can hold if not good luck

dusty cave
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Ct2 even not have bulter

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cort2veh it's not a good match for armt2veh

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starlight and sniper too op in 8v8

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If cortex have tick, then maybe it's a good restraint starlight and sniper, but he didn't

dusty cave
grizzled atlas
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tiger pawn, shiva welder
some good comps

prime ermine
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starlight/sniper is in fine shape, why do you want em nerfed? Can you tell a detailed scenario where its impossible to break starlight/sniper?

dusty cave
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No, I don't think they need to weaken now, on the contrary, I think they need to more strong then so that I play Armada I can win more easily，lets play beyond all armada

barren prawn
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The spybot part of the change is a step in the right direction. I haven't built one(iirc) since the nerf

grizzled atlas
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Starlight a bit ovetuned, same as pawn

prime ermine
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overtuned in what way?

grizzled atlas
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too good at killing generic stuff instead of just higher hp stuff

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the fact that the e cost is backloaded also is quite strong

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it levels up slightly faster, and you can forexample make the e while it is walking forward

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if if you want to reclaim lab, make e and do 4 lab pawn spam that's nice

prime ermine
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the biggest drawback of sniper is if you hit a tick or low value unit thats bad and really a micro issue, put em in hold fire and you get full value every shot per 10 secs, in that instance it levels up faster (lowers reload, only thing that matters) than starlight, its like half the cost in metal so it should be leveling up twice the speed, and as it has one of the longest reloads in the game it benefits the most of the xp.

Starlight having 4.7 reload compared to snipers 10 can 'waste' 2 shots per snipers one, being somewhat more tolerant to bad micro, i would guess most ppl dont bother with hold fire at all and thats definitely a mistake on sniper (assuming you only have 1-2), but not so much on starlight, still as its doing 1250 dmg at max range you do waste a lot of dps firing at low value targets, lessening the xp speed.

Starlight also cost 20 metal to shoot (40 metal per snipers one of 10 metal) which is 20/4.7= 4.25 metal per sec worth.

The counters to both are the same more or less, while the starlight has an extra counter of hvy/t2trans can pick it up (without stun) due to bad turn rate, it would only be able to 'flee' towards the enemy to avoid pickup (untested), while the sniper can simply retreat to deny.

Starlights achillesheel is its so unmicroable its a sitting duck without t2transports moving it around or an army infront blocking incoming dmg.

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the cleanest counter to starlight is probably quickly built hvytranses, except for spybots ofc and possible emplauncher/tacnuke

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the argument of starlights/snipers being too strong hold only true when you let the game snowball, but then you can add this argument to sheldons too, once sheldons 'killed' their metal worth there is not that much ground army that can withstand the ball due to range advantage and few enemy units, the disparity in army metal left the longer range wins.

You can compare this to say sc:bw siege tanks, where if you fail your initial attack with dragoons/zealots, the 12 tanks will have no trouble rolling you, you already lost the game, due to range advantage of siege tanks.

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this is kind of whats going on in starlight/sniper scenario, that the starlights/snipers gets too much value (killing enemy army) that there becomes a snowball scenario of adding more starlights/snipers (as if it was siege tanks) just adds more snowball metal.

What needs to happen is to avoid starlight/snipers altogether, you need to retreat, dont let em kill ya for free, until you got the overwhelming force. Retreating doesnt instantly make a new porc position, say if enemy pushes forward and wanna porc it up to fortify it, say on isthmus choke, you let em have the space but needs to attack before fortification/porc happens or you lost the position for good, but when starlight/snipers exits their safe zone (initial porc) you have the chance of attacking.

Units will die ofc due to high alpha and that has to be low value units, with the hope of enemy not using hold fire to save it for big units.

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a ball of starlights/snipers is good for sure, but its not unstoppable. Thats what im trying to say, so premature nerfs will just make the unit unusable.

Whats your nerf proposal?

harsh egret
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when they renerf grunts maybe

scarlet mirage
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if ppl learn to leapfrog creep the starlights like you would siege tanks the pushes will become even more unstoppable

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there is rarely a need to have all of your starlights shooting at the same time, if you give their formation alot of depth and spread its almost impossible to push and I dont care how many tiger tanks you have

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not uncountrable but the best t2 brawling composition for sure, only countered by heavy arty

wraith slate
scarlet mirage
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if amba con only hit 1 starlight at a time its not great

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I dont think I would even call it a soft counter

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you need a way to halt the starlight forward movement before you can utilize the ambas anyway

grizzled atlas
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it's good against a push that's not moving

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can be quite good against low to mid os but gets worse against starlight users who know what they are doing

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i think you have to combine them with something like a tzar behind t2 walls

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or mauser + twinguard behind t2 wall + rattlesnake
so they can't charge you

grizzled atlas
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if you abuse heavy tanks hitting arriving faster than starlight you can try and out maneveur the starlights, getting value somewhere else before coming back to collapse all at once

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starlight has crap maneuverability but it's not THAT slow. in fact it's often spending time standing still waiting to burn down the enemy and gather enough friendly forces to keep pushing

prime ermine
# scarlet mirage you need a way to halt the starlight forward movement before you can utilize the...

thats what im saying though that if you retreat your forces so you dont get shot by starlight, and starlight keeps chasing, it leaves its 'safe zone' from where it can rely on porc or ally help (depending how active allies are) thats when starlights would be most vulnerable and thats what you see in glitters games where a forward pushing starlight at some point gets overwhelmed and killed due to it being unprotected.

If you then are that stubborn that you wanna keep defending a choke (isthmus) and instead take major losses from starlight shots, thats totally on you for losing that metal. And at that point it will snowball because of metal in army size being very uneven. Taking no losses to starlight is key to getting the force you need to overwhelm starlights, or use other strats or combine.

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spybot + spam (pawn/grunt/incisor etc) should work very fine IF you dont take heavy metal losses due to stubborness.

fast obsidian
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Is it too soon to start the discussion to have the Sneaky Pete back but appropriately nerfed?
Coz so far nothing been done to balance around the fact it got deleted

barren prawn
empty yew
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How else u gonna survive the lane with 2 conturrets, hlt, some llts, walls and commander?

fast obsidian
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looks to me like someone didn't like it and just removed it without any consideration to why it was in the game in the first place

even deleting the juno wouldn't be as bad but even for that they are taking the time of having a proper replacement but for something much more important not even any testing or 2nd thought

ignoring it won't make it fix itself

grizzled atlas
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i haven't missed it at all

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maybe a bit overpriced but still good

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not as good as t2 mobile jammer but that's to be expected

empty yew
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old Sneaky pete only important vs resource funnel plays.

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Which funny enough got even more harder to stop now when whole discord talks about coop

fast obsidian
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exaclty

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they literally killing the high OS scene
Glitters and Strait banning people doing coop now since it's impossible to stop
but anyways

empty yew
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Actually i fully agree with raikoh, sneaky pete is the answer to commie in a big way. Both factions should have it

fast obsidian
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i mean sure core jammer was useless but was very common to coop a sneaky pete or ask for an armada con to not die to coop shit
a proper change was to swap the ranges making both core jammer useful and nerf sneaky pete to make it more fair and easier to find with smaller range

now you just send few ticks or 1 air scout and you instantly see all the jammers, don't even need a juno to push anymore which would delay pushes and make it harder. Literally braindead gameplay they gave us, just coop some tzar/banisher and you don't even need to use brain.

grizzled atlas
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i mean sneaky pete was op against more than just coop plays

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porc, t1, any non long range t2, ships

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even if you know it exists it hard to kill cause you don't know the exact location

empty yew
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i do kinda miss the minigame or drawing circles on map when scouting jammer, and blind-shooting where it might be. i dont think it was really OP, but it was strong.

barren prawn
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t1 cloakable jammer is full dent. All you get out of that is build hlt and cloak com gameplay and it's fried. Not to mention it isn't even close to mattering against co-op. good riddance. We can fix coop seperately. If the price of the jammers needs to be equalized or w/e that's cool, but no cloak. It's bad.

fast obsidian
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Well tbh i don't care much about sneaky pete on Strait neither

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It's a perfectly symmetrical map with only 1 lane and t2 is out by 5 mins every times on both sides
but on the rest of the game sneaky pete matters a lot

barren prawn
grizzled atlas
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you just make hlt beamer it zones out spam which can reveal com + sneaky pete = untouchable

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mostly untouchable

lunar hollow
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how about we bring sneaky pete back but instead of it being invisible it looks like a different unit like a wall so you can spam walls and the enemy has to shoot at all of them to find it

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core jammer could get rapid self repair and more HP

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could just add a t1 wall to the base of the sneaky pete wich remains visible while the rest of the model gets cloaked as usual

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so you at least know that it's impossible for a cloaked commander to be nearby if you see no t1 walls

prime ermine
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Shouldnt sneaky pete be renamed to 'visible pete'

verbal yacht
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I think with good habits sneaky pete wasn’t overly difficult to deal with anyway oftentimes if it’s rushed too fast you’ve had ample time to scout the location since they can’t stop you just running in and seeing where it’s being built

prime ermine
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an early juno would work too if you really need to remove it. Incorporate it into the coordination with Tzar or whatever the strat is 🙂

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its possible to insta-rez a jammer so juno isnt 'hard counter' more like soft counter, its only hard-counter if you time it perfectly with the push so the insta-rez doesnt have effect

verbal yacht
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like I think if you are aware of the strategy and expect your enemy to do it then it’s straightforward to play around it

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That’s how other things in the game work and sneaky pete is no different

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but when you have people who don’t adapt their gameplay and then complain it’s just like yea u got outplayed I guess

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people on the frontline should be more aggressive in order to scout sneaky Pete’s going up or even prevent it entirely

prime ermine
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if you know it exist you already know whats going to happen

verbal yacht
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pushing up until you actually meet resistance is like a core fundamental

prime ermine
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a com sits there (or 2) waiting for dgun, can even use tzar to attack where you think com stands, not sure there is a visible visual effect on hit though

stray oasis
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hmm apex logout and zow start posting on discord suspicious

verbal yacht
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in my experience people often have nanos repairing the com and that does reveal the location

prime ermine
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lol true, and conturret even prefers to repair com before helping buildings

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thats a funny way of finding com 😄

verbal yacht
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in the past in very tight lanes MBT has also just made his own sneaky pete in response and self ding com next to the obvious enemy com, then enemy loses their com and all their porc lol

prime ermine
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jammer + dgun should still be a thing, the only difference is you cant hide sneaky petes in enemy lines

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to be really honest there is little or no guides on combombing, like how-to's. Maybe thats what needs to exist.

autumn socket
prime ermine
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aint 2 subs enough? Damn greed 😄

verbal yacht
stray oasis
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very gamey

tropic aurora
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What if the 'stealth reveal' radius for sneaky pete was really really big. Like at least as big as the jammer range itself. So as soon as any spam got anywhere near it, it was reveled?

verbal yacht
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wouldn’t make it as big as the jammer range, but some smaller value can make it significantly easier to discover while keeping the units niche

prime ermine
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could also make it more visible a jammer exist, the current solution is shading the color of icon/building very slightly that are in jammer range, which isnt that noticeable they are not identified radar dots anymore.

hollow dawn
fast obsidian
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finding sneaky pete was kinda too rng, finding it more ez would be nice

prime ermine
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Here you have the difference of visible knowledge of when a building is jammed, noticing this slight tint change is kinda difficult on some of the colors

image.png
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kinda impossible unless you have a reference beside it

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The other way of knowing a jammer exist is by having radar coverage of the building then hover the mouse over it with any unit that can attack, like a tick. It should then change to attack cursor and if it doesnt its jammed

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These 2 methods of finding jammer is very obscure so to speak and should be more obvious imo

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You still get the attack cursor if you have LOS so it 'hides' the jammer from you, making you know less by having more vision 😄

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have radar but no los = you find jammer, having radar AND los = you dont.

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unidentified buildings in jammer are treated as a mobile units too, ie it hides the radar dot, so as enemy with jammer its in your best interest to let enemy see your buildings before making jammer just to obscure you have jammer. Makes it more difficult to know a jammer exist.

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so the invisibility of sneaky pete itself isnt the biggest culprit. Knowing the exact position of sneaky pete doesnt help you that much unless you can snipe it with long range like arbiter/tacnuke/emplauncher etc. While Juno is big aoe and is the go-to to erase jammers for x amount of time (until rezzed).

elder pollen
grizzled atlas
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sometimes your team just is spamming and has vision

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intentionally removing vision to triangulate where the sneaky pete is in the 500 range circle

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even when you know the sneaky pete is there, and you can see the circle void of radar dots, it's very difficult to pinpoint exactly where it is and shoot the ground

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the only "counter" to sneaky pete it having constant vision and hope they put it up in sight range

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and then bringing a long range unit like mauser/quaker

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if your unit of choice is anything lower range you are SoL

scarlet mirage
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having to commit your shit into a cloak commander you know is waiting somewhere because you know they are greedily teching was...very fun

eternal osprey
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Personally I'm in the 100% against t1 cloaked jammers camp. They did make for interesting plays sometimes and allowed for some overpowered plays to be countered easier but I think the game is better with them gone and other balance levers can be pulled to fix the issues with it being removed other than giving a t1 jammer cloak again.

I still think a t2 cloaked jammer would be much more healthy for the game if we realllly want a cloaked jammer back. At least at that stage you can afford junos usually.

fast obsidian
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Not sure they are planning on using any levers tho, they randomly asking people for what changes to do (that was the latest hotfix) coz the only dude left in the balance team getting harassed by high OS players for fixes when he plays.

Meanwhile they broke the game like 2+ months ago and we are left with trash gameplay for no good reasons
Glitters/Strait doing no coop rules and kickban people doing coop, that's the answer to they stupid changes...

And ofc OP rotato died completely coz of it...

Truly some next level balance devs...

fast yoke
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Good keep the game broken and unplayable so things actually get fixed

eternal osprey
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If it does get cloak back I'd at least prefer if t1 jammers got more standardized. Core can get cloak + cost increase + a bit more range.

There can still be minor differences in range/cost for flavor but it's just too powerful of a tool for only one faction to have access to it imo even if you can usually buy a con.

fast obsidian
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If that post also applies to balance changes, they should revert last balance patch and go through the usually testing like they used to do

The current feedback would be the same as the air rework they last tried

41546684-DA99-4855-9956-1FE347B7E796.png
forest girder
prime ermine
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imo t2 jammers should be cloakable, cloak tech fits t2, not t1, while t1 is more 'basic'

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i would probably add cloak ability to t2 radar too

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just to make t2 radar usable. It still kinda isnt usable due to juno spam killing it so easy, and pulsar/bulwark/t2airscout being anti-juno tech

verbal yacht
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T2 is meant to be the long range jammer, would be weird with cloak. T1 cloakable lets it be used earlier on while limiting the range significantly

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T2 radar is already one of the best units in the game

prime ermine
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it just seems odd the more advanced a unit becomes the less advanced it becomes LUL

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the t2 mobile radars/jammers are already op, and should be used instead of static t2 jammer in nearly all cases

prime ermine
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Maybe juno needs to not kill everything in one shot but require more shots the more advanced it is, like t2 radar/jammer

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or juno getting dot dmg so there is a chance to save radar/jammers if you got repairers around, and more junos = more dot dmg (stacking)

verbal yacht
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I don’t think t2 radar/jammer need a buff like that to become resistant to juno, people just skip it because of the same reason I have to ping people to build any radar in the first place, people underestimate how valuable information is

tropic aurora
honest nimbus
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Hello my friends! I am playing this game for a while, and recently I am warried about gameplay changes, especially after 2nd season patch!
Looks like changes are made by players that have no in-depth understanding of gameplay. Balance team just wants to simplify things that they never used and got countered with!
Random units being buffed/nerfed, whole mechanics were deleted from the game.
I am pretty sure new BAR players are crazy about variety of strats and unique creative plays that they cant find in any other rts.
But what latest changes did we got? Removed fire modes, completely ruined spybots mechanic, jammer is useless now.
What next? Maybe d-gun remove? Its too good! It counters big t3 units - very unfair!?
Last quality changes I remember were commander and whistler+lasher reworks. Most changes after that are pure disappointment and last season patch was the worst thing happened.
Less creative outplays - less satisfaction from learning the game.
I hope BAR will move more into creative style as it used to be!

hollow dawn
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damn, they even got 8D commenting

fast obsidian
grizzled atlas
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t2 radar needs to be emp'd by juno otherwise little point in building it

verbal yacht
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as an information providing tool t2 radar provides a lot of information that you can’t get at a similar price point

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the game is all about getting and preventing information, t2 radar is powerful and can also be denied if the location is scouted, good gameplay here

grizzled atlas
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633 metal converted ouch

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i mean it's very situational

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very painful to get it junoed although you can rez

verbal yacht
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yeah you get more value the more of the map it’s providing useful info on

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even if it gets junoed tho you get a decent refund from the wreck

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on maps that are larger than isthmus you can try to place it somewhere less likely to get junoed, but the cost should encourage players to try and scout and juno them anyway if possible

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also if you’re actually pushing it’s one of the easier and long range radar options you can get and definitely worth it’s value, getting radar on enemy bases is practically a win condition you get so much info

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anyway everything is relative anyway, I would probably not be spamming these if I don’t even have afus economy yet, but later on it’s simply just good value for the cost relative to other things you can spend your larger income on

prime ermine
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Most probably check the stats of pete/veil and scratch their head.

Near same BT, HP.
Pete better mass rezzed (leaving rezbots on auto-rez beside it if junoed).
Pete is T1, accessible.
Pete way less E drain.
With converted cost they cost nearly same M.
The range is better on Veil but is it required for combomb/dguns? IMO no. The go-to if you wanna hide a huge base, if thats necessary.
Veil can quickly crash you into Estall.

There should be bigger differences between em thats significant to justify Veil.

On Cor side its a completely different story where its obvious when to use what.

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Havent checked Legion

prime ermine
# honest nimbus Hello my friends! I am playing this game for a while, and recently I am warried ...

Big words there but can you be constructive? Why is current Spybot/Jammer useless?

Your post just looks very whiny without substance.

Im gonna defend 'random units being buffed/nerfed' and say its nice to see rarely used units being tested and thats solely from being changed, while nerfing some specific units has good reasons behind it. Sadly its takes a long time for meta to evolve to the state a unit becomes op and needs the nerf, and when it happens the complaints comes. If Spybot was 'correctly balanced' from the scratch would you still complain? Im in doubt, but would you use it? Maybe not until you get better and notice what it can achieve with some extra micro.

shadow fractal
#

It feels like a lot of the strategic framework and complexity are continually being removed in favor of a more refined and smooth gameplay experience, which I mean, I get, I understand why, but it doesn't really feel like the game I fell in love with a few years ago anymore.

i think the spybot change is emblematic of this: of course spybots were super op before, everyone knew this. But they had generally well defined points in time and space (strategies) where they were super op, which one had to play around. Now they're mediocre, and easy to build, and there's nothing interesting in the strategies with and against them. Could they have used a nerf? Yeah maybe, I'm not op enough to have a strong opinion on specific unit balance, so idk. but removing all the strengths, and weaknesses, of a unit together just makes it bland

grizzled atlas
#

it still costs a lot of e and bp to make

#

it having no countdown on detonation is kinda odd tho

harsh egret
#

hello dear balancing team can we change stats of things soon? I really miss cortex grunt gaming also give hounds back the gaus canon

chilly heath
#

I don't think gauss cannon as separate weapon is coming back. I've tried to give hound weapon more projectilevelocity but I haven't been able to get that through. Honestly I think hound has decent balance now but I wouldn't mind giving it some projvelocity if people want it to be more like old gauss.

harsh egret
#

we need a summery and something about current balance

#

the thing with hounds rn they're in a very bad shape like it's not even worth using them

#

grunt vs pawns I still see it being controversial ever since the nerfs I've always used armada now and I rekt all grunt players armada has ticks which makes them very strong to begin with try to buff grunt a tiny bit more maybe idk?

chilly heath
#

Hounds are very cheap, fast and long ranged. The 3 most op stats for any unit. I don't think they are too bad. But also wouldn't mind buffing them a bit if needed.

shadow fractal
#

imo i like the niche, they're just a bit underpowered, I'd like to see em buffed just a little in all the relevant stats, like, 20 more range, 2 more speed, a little more los, something like that. it's just too outmatched against every other t2 unit, and people are too good at coop so you almost never get a strong t2 vs t1 push in these days that can win the game, so it needs some very mild buffs for its ability to go vs t2 so it's not just instantly outmatched by any other lab imo. it's fallen behind in the meta as people and teams get better at teching up

harsh egret
ripe valley
#

Hounds are pretty trash indeed, they are on slow side, bad rotation rate, bad dps. All around trash, especially since their counterpart is sheldon that is still strong as heck

One thing i dont like is removal of cloak from t1 jammer tower. Such a bad change for choke-heavy maps, and with zero reason either. I guess someone got his tzar dgunned few times and got tilted?

harsh egret
#

we need a full summery of what has been suggested here but as far as I know my issues right now is grunt vs pawn and hounds.

exotic sigil
#

bring back high trajectory aoe and dam peepoShy

grizzled atlas
#

they will always lose to supported mausers/quaker/sheldon (with screen / llt in front). as they should

#

against porc and not well microed t1, spiders are better (more punch)

#

if only 1 weapon type, you could probably purely just change their projectile speed and it would make them decent

harsh egret
#

but these are 2 issues I have in bar rn

honest nimbus
harsh egret
honest nimbus
#

inactive low skill nubs will rly enjoy 1 unit spam soon

harsh egret
#

people hated me for it and really its not fun gameplay right now

fast obsidian
#

rip 8D meeting the no gaming gang spamming balance thread

harsh egret
honest nimbus
#

To be constructive i'd recomend to add all patches after whistler+lasher change as an option and see what people are plaing. And changes can be very small like 5-15% from base its usually enough. Atm is just cutting off 1 leg and wondering why dude cant run

#

pure madness

harsh egret
honest nimbus
#

i cant even track changes anymore its cutting off a leg and adding crutches for a while XD looks like its june 2024 but in march 2024 stilleto got killed completly i duno what changed at that time in balance team but things goes worse and worse from that time

#

i didnt seen a single stilleto made in 2025 - nice nerf lmao

grizzled atlas
#

na stilleto is still decent

#

the total cost of it is similiar to a sniper
and it flies around having big impact
just not an auto win button

#

kinda rough on solar map tho since 1 fusion isn't enough to make it

honest nimbus
#

I am plaing supreme, in rotato we not building it anymore and cant see it in ffa too

grizzled atlas
#

people are not even fully utilizing shuriken
it's one of those high skillcap units

#

like a flying spybot dispenser

harsh egret
grizzled atlas
#

i don't know it's absolute power level but it's definitely got a skill cap + coordination to get value from it

honest nimbus
#

anyway what purpose of that channel, do it have any chance to save gameplay we all enjoyed for years or even decades? or people just randomly typing here about shuriken skill cap issues?

grizzled atlas
#

im just disagreeing i don't think the stilleto was nerfed into oblivion

#

the rest fair game

fast obsidian
honest nimbus
#

can we have list of balance team here btw?

#

or is it some secret info, cause they know they doing wierd things that a lot people who actully plaing the game wont enjoy?

exotic sigil
#

Some other people used to be on it, but they've been inactive so they've been removed

honest nimbus
#

so ptaq and zecrus stoped balancing the game it seems

exotic sigil
#

oh nvm, they just didn't show up for me for some reason. everyone is on the list inactive or not

honest nimbus
#

I know how johannes plaing the game and rebel and I can clearly see their influence on ruining good coutnerplays to 1 click raid units

fast obsidian
#

Mitvit, Rebel, Ptaq(inactive), Zecrus (legion only it seems) and Hornet that just left replaced by Zeteo

honest nimbus
#

I have no idea about whats going on in sea balance, but on ground its just going very wrong

#

game cant be that bad! to 1 click any base to win and not warry about coutnerplays as mines jammed coms or spyes etc

hollow dawn
#

no matter how bad ground gameplay is i'm 99% sure sea is worse

honest nimbus
#

some ears ago people tryed to make it more intresting and added dteaths and mines, rez subs, but it didnt worked sadly

#

A LOT people just avoid plaing sea cause lack of countertplays

#

and ground is moving in same direction last year

grizzled atlas
#

sea t1 vs sea t1 is fine, decent even

#

just imba vs land. t2 has some issues, esp flag

#

but none of that is as high priority as land balancing and fixing t1/t2 land balance

#

having pawn be OP when it's the core unit used everywhere is crazy crazy

barren prawn
grizzled atlas
#

yeah nothing is changing with sea
besides torp nerf. hovers still useless

#

rebalancing sea will take a lot of work so who cares. pick the easier things like make medium hovers viable, land, etc.

honest nimbus
#

well i cant talk about sea cause i just dodge all maps with water in rotato lobby last years, that snowball effect ruining whole 8v8 experience even with 1 river spot

honest nimbus
#

we had issues with mines, cloakable jammers and spybots but why not nerf it in very small numbers and watch how it goes??? why ruin things so hard and making them usless at all?

candid grove
#

Out of curiosity, is there game-level data that is recorded? E.g. # of pawns, spybots made in games to see diff pre/post changes

grizzled atlas
#

that's not a great indicator of balance

#

plp make banishers more than their power level, puffins/sabres are strong but rarely made

fast obsidian
#

too much emotional dmg from Siven owning with spies every games, mono spammers nightmare

grizzled atlas
#

the irony is that spybot is monospam

#

just make spybot solve your problem

#

wow i hit him with invisible unit while my sumo beamer hlt mammoth cleared the spam so much skill

fast obsidian
#

sure now you can spam them a lot easier since they halfved the upkeep cost lol

tropic aurora
fast obsidian
#

you acting like emp would kill the units also, clearly spybots made a lot of people not happy but that was the point of the unit
forcing people play smart and good instead of 1 click metal diff

tropic aurora
#

Sneaky pete was a way for t1 to fight against t2, and spybot was a way for t2 to fight against t3. Both uptier combat options. Both removed.

honest nimbus
#

I heard one good idea how to counter spybots for example what if countermeasure system would make them visible instead of only warnign circles

#

must be many ways to nerf but not make spybot so usless as it is now

tropic aurora
#

I want to give perimeter cameras like a 200 range seismic detection.

prime ermine
prime ermine
prime ermine
#

The season 2 balance feedback doesnt really touch sea at all with any changes so im gonna skip discussing that until changes are made. IMO as it seems now T2 units are just too strong in sea, specifically maelstrom/brimstone.

prime ermine
# honest nimbus we had issues with mines, cloakable jammers and spybots but why not nerf it in v...

How are mines/spybots/jammers useless in the current patch? Can you explain the issue?

-Mines got buffed by adding a 2x medium mine as Heavy mine. The time it takes with minelayer to build heavy mine is extreme though (17s), an ok compensation for its strength.
-Spybot got buffed with less E drain, ie more spammable without estall during movement.
-Spybot stun length nerfed to a more humane number, it still has 100% edge meaning you dont need to hug units to get full effect. It can no longer be a hardcounter to every unit in the game, which imo is fine.
-Spybot emp immune again.
-Jammers unchanged except for pete cloak removal.

Exactly whats the issue here you think?

prime ermine
tropic aurora
#

Sure, And I thought it needed a nerf, I proposed (what I think) was a good one.

#

Make it stun for very short duration (1-4s) a single, or maybe two T3 units close together, but still stun groups of light T2 for a while (8-12s).

glad rover
#

spybots could only hardcounter a t3 push with no support a properly defended t3 push can ez deal with spys

#

naked shiva would lose to shuri too

prime ermine
#

ya but just to spit out an example, marauder raid, it typically has no anti-spy sweep except if you split the maras

#

mines are overly strong vs marauder raid too for the same cost as 1-2 spybots, it wipes em out. But there you can at least sweep with juno beforehand

#

the cost investment currently with spybot vs mara raid is ~300 metal (2x spy), to stun for 10s a big group of maras

verbal yacht
#

I don’t think anyone is saying that marauder is too weak because spybot existed tho lol

#

spybot can get good value if properly used into an enemy that isn’t taking precautions to stop it, sure. this is good because it allows for people to outplay in a way that isn’t just have more army value

stray oasis
#

spybot not being able to stop bantha is huge sad

verbal yacht
#

it’s almost as if emp is supposed to be a tool to stun units you can’t traditionally kill easily

prime ermine
# verbal yacht I don’t think anyone is saying that marauder is too weak because spybot existed ...

what i meant was if you complained about spybot earlier, you should now too, its just as potent shutting down stuff even if unit HP is rather high. You do stun a Tzar with double spybots for example.

Should 2 spybots stun a Titan? I think not. You need plenty mines to eradicate a Titan so why should 2 spybots be the hardcounter to shutdown mass titans for ~300 metal. That is the current state with emplauncher, which is more expensive for sure, but for what it can do its very cheap.

Curious to hear why spybot should be the end-all solution to all tiers.

image.png image.png
verbal yacht
#

well spybot shouldn’t be equivalent to mines cuz mines do normal damage and are a different tool, why everything in the game needs to be the same lol

#

2 spybots does not counter mass titan, the titan is stunned for a few seconds then keeps walking and you have to keep applying emp…

#

but it might slow down a Titan push if they aren’t careful

#

spybots are very energy and bp expensive… I seen lots of people lose games because they swap their lab to spybot and maybe get 1 out before they die, when they could’ve had units that actually have holding power

prime ermine
#

ya the shuri/webber can keep emped titans perma stunned for cheap. I do assume you have some firepower with the 2 spybots. And if say enemy has 5 titans thats what nearly 70k metal and what do you have with your 2 spybots is the question.

verbal yacht
#

honestly my experience with Titan being stunned is that it can just face tank the stun and then you just keep playing after you been stunned, like yea you got outplayed but it doesn’t shut down your push at all it just delays the 1 Titan a bit

#

it just sounds like pure skill issue if you’re getting perma chain stunned

#

like you got countered and doing nothing to prevent it lol then you should lose

#

why should Titan 1 click walk through an effective defense that utilizes both emp and regular damage?

#

if spybots so good the titan player could also have their own spybots maybe? why we assuming some lopsided engagement where 1 guy is sweating and using all the tricks to hold a defense and the other guy is just 1 click brain off push and expecting to win?

#

the cool thing about bar that makes bar, bar, is that it isn’t just someone has a army value advantage and wins, but after every patch that’s what we’re going toward, just pure numbers game no strategy

#

I have 6 titans you have 5 haha I win because nothing can change that fact even with an effective defense

#

If you push unsupported, then that’s a greedy play, you will have more of whatever your main army is composed of and less support options to counter niche responses

prime ermine
#

titan was just a dumb example of how strong original spybots were, but you counter that with saying skill issue of the titan player not having spam. The question remains, should original spybots be able to stun a titan for 20s with 2 spybots.

verbal yacht
#

That’s how it should be, we should not be encouraging greedy monospam pushing as the default

#

yeah it should and if people wanted to limit how much you can delay Titan with spybot then maybe you can reduce the timer a bit

#

But why take away the whole interaction as a whole?

prime ermine
#

if we exclude spybots at all the stun issue is already in effect due to 2x emplaunchers. Its being used i guess fairly often nowadays.

verbal yacht
#

yes, stunning armies with emp launcher can be a valid strategy why not

#

why game can’t have more strategies in general?

#

every tournament is vehicle lab even when spybots were good

#

it’s weird seeing people talk about spybot as if it instantly 1 shots your whole army and you lose it all

#

if that’s the case you were probably losing the game in the first place

#

with less army value and less apm to manage your army lol

#

at best a spybot is just delaying a push, which is effective, but anyone who’s actually seeing their whole push lose to a spybot needs to rethink their strategy and think about why they lost in a more complex way than just blame spybot

#

maybe they were too greedy with an all in unsupported push against an enemy who had more defensive capacity than they thought

prime ermine
#

i guess you could also perma stun with repeatedly making spybots and send it in again

verbal yacht
#

right, the timing can be tightened up if people feel it’s too much rn, but that’s not the balance change that was made lol they nerfed the damage by like 10x so that the class of units you could stun was limited

#

can’t even meaningfully stun t2 assault tanks with these stats lol, why make spybot? I already rarely made spybot cuz 100 e/s drain on top of the existing energy and bp cost to build is really steep

#

now I have 0 reason to make spybot

prime ermine
#

yes, they made spybot specifically counter lower HP units, unless you use a vast amount of metal in spybots. While running around with 5+ spybots to stun a single unit will look very stupid indeed, but doable.

#

So maybe better to raise spybot Metal cost and raise the emp dmg. Then its one spybot which would be fairly cost inefficient against lower HP units but better microed and suitable vs T2/T3

#

The only issue i had with old spybot is it cost ~150 metal 😄

verbal yacht
#

it should be very cost efficient against large targets if you can connect the stun

#

it doesn’t do the killing itself and is very straightforward to counter, especially if you are defending

#

Just looking at metal cost is just a flawed understanding of the game anyway

prime ermine
#

No but you then assume the spybot user has no firepower. Firepower + 150 metal of 10s stun. Those 10 seconds in dps will be significant. And the dps loss of enemy army from being stunned. A unit of 150 metal value swaying the effective DPS by a lot.

verbal yacht
#

yeah but there’s usually larger army in general, most of the time when I get hit by spybot I still have some other army surrounding that means the amount of value they can get in that time frame is limited as they’re still fighting against an existing army

marsh mesa
#

sneakypeter just needed 15-20% range reduction. It had exceptional power requirements to build early in the game and made it a trade off to make. The range reduction makes it more tactical placement, and there is higher risk it is spotted when being built.

#

it should be back in the game imo

verbal yacht
#

Including units that might be kiting, or assault units that can push forward to screen and tank damage more efficiently, or some stuff like ticks that can also stall/harass the enemy counter push and make them less willing to push in

#

It’s true that very small amounts of individually rushed units might be better countered by spybot, since there’s less likely to be more support around, but that seems a fair price for rushing something very power dense that typically shits on every other unit composition at the same time

#

is tzar rush or Razorback rush bad just because spybot exist? It could be, some of the time, but is overall still a strategy that is probably very effective

scarlet mirage
#

I really dont know why they didnt just nerf the gigantic aoe it has with 0 edge dmg falloff

verbal yacht
#

most tzars are achieving full payoff after like 2 shots fired these days lol

scarlet mirage
#

ofc gigantic aoe+gigantic emp dmg was op

verbal yacht
#

you could probably coop a spybot rush against enemy tzar rush and still end up overall behind on the game even if you connect your spybot lol

scarlet mirage
#

if its a key unit disabler just make aoe smol?

prime ermine
#

Its different to talk about this without a controlled environment. Because most balance decisions will be made on a hunch of something being too strong/weak, not skill issue.

verbal yacht
#

I think the aoe is what it is so that there’s a decent range at which you can stun without running into detection range

#

I mean spybot has existed for many years and people still rush razorback in those games

scarlet mirage
#

the aoe can hit 40-50 sheldon in 1 shot xD

#

ok maybe less but its big

verbal yacht
#

and then there’s a token amount of skill issue where people get (correctly) outplayed then start complaining

prime ermine
scarlet mirage
#

am I wrong than that emp blast deals full emp dmg across the entire radius?

prime ermine
#

Most bar players are not playing their peak at all times, nor has reached peak, or maybe never will, and have to accept you will get outplayed by certain opponents or maybe even high skill strats.

#

To blame that on balance issue, ie complaining about it would be wrong.

prime ermine
#

spybot earlier had 75% iirc, ie hugging was more emp dmg, its usually why ppl failed the emping due to wanting to be as close as possible or the emp strength wasnt enough to give full stun length. Now as you dont need to hug you can stay at safe distances and emp, unless you want more units stunned.

prime ermine
verbal yacht
#

yea to a certain extent I also like that spybot helps to define how congested lanes should be before spybot reward for hitting a stun becomes too big to ignore

#

Feels like there isn’t that much you can do to punish a fat blob of Sheldon even though it looks like it should be easily punishable

tropic aurora
#

Yeah that's what they said, 'zero falloff' = edge effectiveness 1 = 100% constant damage.

#

I vote emp bots get negative edge.

prime ermine
#

the 100% edge is probably to make it more reliable. Probably wanna change other variables than that one.

verbal yacht
prime ermine
#

ya and lag :/

#

when lag affects your performance it sux

verbal yacht
#

Well entire early game on lane map is balanced around lag rn so :shrug:

tropic aurora
verbal yacht
#

Oh not sure then

tropic aurora
#

But now spy bots are instant i guess it doesn't matter

verbal yacht
#

Haven’t tested very recently

tropic aurora
#

They were just noticible due to the short time, but that effected everything

verbal yacht
#

It didn’t seem like game frame mattered, you could selfd a lot of units at once and it seemed tied to map location xD

#

so technically not rng if you knew the map tiling

tropic aurora
#

oh rip, more buggy than i thought :P

prime ermine
#

The go-to counter to sheldon ball (50 in img). Skuttle in 'fire at will' loaded into t2 trans, as you get closer you start selfD process and blow up above sheldons. The result:

image.png image.png
verbal yacht
#

you could get a nice gradient of selfd timers doing selfd on a square grid of units

#

lmao that’s funny gaming

#

so is skuttles in t2 transport the last comeback mechanism remaining in the game

prime ermine
#

i dont think so, i mean noone uses transport bombs so its not even nerfed yet, nor is the bug fixed

#

if its nerfed cloaked skuttles probably just as useful, get a t2 jammerbot following it, as the jammerbot dies you are already close enough to blow up

verbal yacht
#

im gonna start doing this against 20 os guys with 60 Sheldon in a ball

prime ermine
#

be sure to have the bomb in 'fire at will' as it then uses selfD in the trans as it blows

#

thats the current bug

verbal yacht
#

op

prime ermine
#

even if the transport is shot down it uses selfD in the air

#

its only if enemy happens to kill the bomb in the air (not the trans) it uses normal death explosion

verbal yacht
#

lmao so in theory that works with fiends?

prime ermine
#

good question, one sec

#

difficult to tell but i think its a no, even so you would have to dance so immensely with the transport, using unload to get closer to the ground to reach with aoe above sheldons or whatever that its too much effort. But it seems it only does dmg from the transports own selfD, not Fiends ~1k dmg

#

I think its just the bombs thats different, they messed up something there when its in transport

honest nimbus
#

30 games in 2 years experience but typing about balance critics instantly, go test things in real games maybe then ask questions why nerfed things not working

honest nimbus
#

nerfing shouldnt be changing every unit stat in 200-300%, they were in game and worked mayeb a bit more efficent then other things but what i see?

image.png
#

those mines nerf also touched commando that already was used in 1/100 games and dudes changed medium mines buildtime in 300%

#

u never insta won makign mines, it was a defencive tool, jsut forcign enemy to slow down push and make juno no need to change mines and make them 3x less efficent

#

all nerfed things were workign just to slow down mindless pushes, balance team making those tools 3x less effective

#

ofc newbs watched at spy metal cost and say its still op, but they never noticed huge buildtime on those i guess

prime ermine
honest nimbus
#

ofc u can build few mines or spybots vs afk 10 os players

#

but in slightly competitive games u wont use that

honest nimbus
#

i dont evne understand why offline dudes have to influence the game

prime ermine
#

the mine change is more of a rework than balance, it switches heavy mines from being spammable to becoming high alpha and long buildtime (though decoy builds em quickly) and what that does is make minelayer a more defensively used than offensive unit. By offensive i mean you could do offensive mines previously, while the buildtime increase now changes that to being done in protected zone where there is time for mines to finish, specifically the heavy mine, rest of mines fairly quickly built.

honest nimbus
#

well numbers are wild cant u see that

#

even on paper it looks like madness imho, and ingame things not working at all

prime ermine
#

commando got its own mine though

honest nimbus
#

he have medium mine

prime ermine
#

yes but its not same mine

honest nimbus
#

why keybind is same then

prime ermine
#

no maybe im wrong, it says cormine2, so that should be same mine as minelayer

honest nimbus
#

i have medium mine bind for commando use and it works on minelayer and commando

#

see people nerfing things but tell me when johaness or rebel used commando even once

#

in all 15+ years johaness plaing the game he didnt amde a single 1

prime ermine
#

why does changing the mine make it worse for commando?

#

you mean for its offensive ability of paratrooping

honest nimbus
#

cause commando buildpower never changed

#

u simply wont have time to place mines they are all reclaimed or killed

#

so unpopular unit jsut became almost 3x less effective too with mines nerf

prime ermine
#

i get your point, so the cormine2 also affects commando and its offensive minelaying ability, agreed. Commando probably needs a buff of some sort to become more useful, but thats another discussion though 🙂

honest nimbus
#

u cant buff its buildpower much tho he have t1 popup turrets jammers and some other stuff to build

#

imagine if commando will build flame turrets 3x faster then it was before

prime ermine
#

oh wait a minute i see what they did. Commando did have cormine4 earlier (is now 2, same as minelayer) because they had different buildtimes.

From what i can see cormine4 is now unused. So a switch had to happen.

#

maybe thats a mistake though. cormine2 has 300 BT, cormine4 200 BT. Commando should have cormine4

honest nimbus
#

balance team just didnt want to waste apm on buildign juno so they nerfed mines in 3x numbers thats what i see

prime ermine
honest nimbus
#

in time window when mines could work its nealry impossible to build mines now in 8v8

honest nimbus
#

as i told already hwy not make small fixes before cutting off legs

prime ermine
#

A possible fix for minelayer could be to allow multi-build, currently if you select 2 minelayers and place a mine they wont assist.

honest nimbus
#

game was working rly well for decades why changing builditmes in 300%?

prime ermine
#

minelayer is spammable, its cheap, but not being able to assist is weird

#

ya well you have to ping the balance team i guess to get that answer, the only logical reason i can see is to lessen mine spam

#

oh ya, the mine buildtime increase might be because 1v1 reasons, where you could instantly place new strong mines to defend an incoming raid

grizzled atlas
#

Mines are still very good it's just Juno needs rework to not instantly kill mines so they have use later on

#

Reason why mines op is the bp cost. You either send 4 cons to build defenses or you can send 1 minelayer

next hawk
#

IMO the "spybot counters everything" argument is simply not true. Spybots only counter T3 if the army is unsupported which means any T3 push had to be accompanied by a screen of cheaper units or get stunned or dgunned.

Spybots encouraged people to have varied unit compositions because it punished players who would only build expensive units than blindly roll them down a lane.

IMO the old spybots were good for the meta overall. It's true that they punched above their weight but so does the tick and that's fine.

grizzled atlas
#

if they go shiva make sniper, if they make catapult use tac launcher, atomic bomber, stilleto, etc.

#

spam is an option too

#

even just backing up and making a defence with more economy works (reclaiming structures as you give up ground)

#

the traditional counter to t3 is to just make a later defence with better economy as they have walk distance and lab cost

#

4 snipers in a transport annihilate a razor

#

if you are using spybot as a stopgap for the commie mechanic then be aware of that

#

i'm in the camp of buffing dedicated anti heavy options for labs that have none, nerfing the hyper effecient stat sticks (shiva, tzar, maybe razor very slightly), but not having super generic goodstuff answers like old emp bot and sneaky pete

fast obsidian
#

Sad the game went from being balanced by a very cautious and well informed game dev to then some random dudes that have no clues and decide to rework whole gameplay, i guess Zecrus got tired and was pretty much not playing at the end but that balance direction change is brutal and already killed the game at the first balance changes...

next hawk
#

Ironically spybot was the only anti-heavy option for the cortex botlab other than the mammoth which is already a heavy unit of its own.

fast yoke
#

If they make vanguard resign

tardy basin
#

The "funny" thing is i warned waaay before the season patch about the disaster overnerf spybots on game balance, now there is the disaster, gl now, i am tired to talk with "game balance t3 walls" here

stray oasis
grizzled atlas
#

it's not realistic to bring minesweeper to an amphib assault

#

besides the juno "gotcha" factor mines were a lot cheaper to hold of mara/sala than porc

#

when they turned on juno rework (emp mines only) it was mine fest

fast obsidian
stray oasis
tropic aurora
#

That's exactly what they do though

stray oasis
hollow dawn
#

kinda

stray oasis
#

Their attack looks like a Juno

hollow dawn
#

but it's almost not worth trying the attack now, they removed the juno attack

#

now they reveal mines

#

so simpler to just let your normal units clear mines

stray oasis
#

Gg the Juno attack was pretty good I thought for clearing mines if yoi had the apm

#

Little low aoe tho

tropic aurora
grizzled atlas
#

something automatic but higher cooldown

#

so clearing minefield slows you down but is not an apm chore

tropic aurora
#

Due to the deceleration you can't even put minesweepers on fight and come back to a cleared field. They just blow themselves up.

#

But due to the terrible new gun you can't even sink apm into clearing it like before. Yeah now you have to support an army and tiptoe forwards.

fast obsidian
#

I have name of the people that asked for minessweepers/mines change

fading lagoon
#

this thread needs more people that dont play the game nor have a clue but with strong opinions

ripe valley
#

i miss old d-gun style deminer, it was much better

eternal osprey
#

I wanted the minesweeper to reveal mines but not for mines to get super nerfed or for minesweeper to lose its aoe attack in the process...

stray oasis
grizzled atlas
#

there are mine revealing units in starcraft and no one complains they are skilless

silver gulch
tardy basin
#

Just noticed, there is always the toggle for the old "cloak sneaky pete", maybe remove it as it is no more cloakable

sneakypete.png
hollow dawn
#

mine nerf was 100% necessary, they were suffocating games

ripe valley
#

Mines were never a problem by itself, just some interactions were meh

  • emp doesnt work on mines for whatever reason, so you couldnt make a path with stilleto
  • minelayers are buggy, cant assist other minelayers, if interruped cant resume building mines
  • emp mines are a thing but minelayer cant make them
  • there is no invisibility detection so you cant tell where stuff is etc
#

Juno works too well, it should have like half aoe range, but also should attack in more parabolic way so that hills dont mess it so badly

prime ermine
#

Why you dont get a ban for discriminating like that is mind blowing

fast obsidian
#

People that don't even play the game and pollute balancing threads should also get banned then

prime ermine
#

no im discussing, youre trying to exclude people. If you think something i say is wrong, then ignore my OS/GameTime/GameNumbers (stop attacking the character) and argument why im wrong.

#

If you cant do that you dont either deserve to be here.

#

Maybe thread should be renamed to 'feedback from elitism only' then. Would fit perfectly.

honest nimbus
#

saber what kind of feedback u doing? u are not even plaing the game

#

feedback is when u test things on practice and say what went wrong

#

BAR is PVP rts u have to play real games to give feedback

fast obsidian
#

yea but you don't have to play to balance it, so maybe we are all wrong and people not playing should give feedback

#

and people playing should go away

honest nimbus
#

i see that units stats changed in 200%-300% and from being slightly more effective then other strats become completly useless

#

look how balance is done in any other popular pvp game, in leage of legends they changing 1 stat for 10% and champion become op

#

and current BAR balance team just cuts things in twice or more and think its ok

#

i completly forgot to mention t2 transport rebalance - in soem lobbies community just kickbans for using it, and noone cares

#

how in hell transport with a commander should move almost same speed as a fighter

scarlet mirage
#

i have some waaaa to add: cor t1 bots were gutted by making grunt shit and before that making thug buildtime and repair much worse

#

no scout, no anti swarm just shit grunt, gg

honest nimbus
#

for example i dont even try to discuss basic tier 1 units balance, cause i simply dont play 1v1 last years

#

but dudes dont play game at all and feel confident to give feedback on everything

woeful fiber
#

Still no T2 core veh engineer

scarlet mirage
#

no but the banisher got nerfed after a week 🤣

prime ermine
# honest nimbus BAR is PVP rts u have to play real games to give feedback

No you dont. The balancing act isnt supposed to be based on current meta. Ure saying that if you have 2 parties playing PvP that should be the deciding factor whats to be balanced and the perceived balance. Ive adressed this before that metas change with time so thinking just because you feel its imbalanced atm doesnt mean it actually is.

Spybot is too op on paper, and in a real game as a consequence. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to see that.

#

You can always come up with new op strats that make some units in a specific composition be seemingly imbalanced. That doesnt mean there isnt a counter.

#

Is Spybot too bad right now? No. Is it too good? No. Is it then seemingly balanced? Yes. Current spybot is ok, the earlier version too strong.

#

In the hands of high os with more apm the new spybot should be just as effective as the old one, it just requires a bit more skill. Its now a skill spybot while previously it was a beginner spybot (too op). More skill = better spybot efficacy. Ideally all units should be that if balanced correctly. Leaving less to chance (there is still rng in some places which is intended).

fast obsidian
tardy basin
grizzled atlas
#

Like the cheese might be holdable with very good play

#

but similiar to the t1 trans situation, it just encourages you to yolo and YEET coms and see if it works

#

making a nuke bomber should be a strategical choice, not something you unlock with a 320/6000 abductor combining with a com

#

just slow it down when it's carrying a com or something

empty yew
#

Balance decision seem good when you dont play, but theorycraft a lot. They seem airtight. But when you play, you often hit the wall and realize why they arent good and why theorycrafting wasnt sound.

prime ermine
#

Notice how i argument WHY the unit is in current good shape, while you just say high os said its useless with zero effort explaining WHY.

honest nimbus
#

u can make those for fun and emp 5 os sheldons ball

#

but in above average skilled lobbies u have to ignore all things that were nerfed so hard

#

very soon or already we will try to play castrated BAR version with very few good strats and no counters

prime ermine
#

thats just not true

honest nimbus
#

u wish

prime ermine
#

what ure saying is that spybot needs to be the old version of balance or its unusable

honest nimbus
#

i want old version to be balanced better

fading lagoon
prime ermine
#

i want you to stop discriminating based on os/gametime/gamenumbers

honest nimbus
#

just revert all stupid changes and try balance in small portions to advance gameplay, balance counters more carfull, atm its just became a worse game

prime ermine
honest nimbus
#

Saber u cant see how changes work, but keep arguing

fading lagoon
#

Dude its not discrimination to point out that you have no clue what you are talking about

honest nimbus
#

its like a blind guy will talk about colors

prime ermine
#

I give my take, you can hammer my take but be specific. If not then whatever.

fading lagoon
honest nimbus
#

y just the main idea is lost in ur spam saber

prime ermine
honest nimbus
#

first i wanted jsut to type 1 message but it just goes too far cause unplaing dude keeps spaming some ideas on balance lol

#

probably much easier to pm real devs

prime ermine
#

Being this vague its so sad

honest nimbus
#

instead of spaming in this thread with saber

prime ermine
#

And ya i would prefer to discuss the issues instead of discussing if im allowed to speak

honest nimbus
#

instead of typing here nonstop login and play 20 games in different lobbies

#

and test ur ideas on practice

prime ermine
honest nimbus
#

i duno even 15 years ago Beherith was carefully balancing the game, watching statistics, trying to not ruin the game

#

atm its just butchers killing the game

prime ermine
# honest nimbus and test ur ideas on practice

all my 'ideas' are tested in practice, its not theory. But you seem to think you need to play 1000 games to find that exact moment the spybot play occurs and somehow come to a different conclusion?

Ive known a long time spybots op and the nerf was pretty recent. How would i know that you ask? Well i tested it and came to that conclusion very quickly. One of the most op units in the game, and quite recently the spybot spam started from being in a long hiatus of not used and then the nerf hit. A well deserved nerf (IMO). The only issue i had with the first iteration was 8s stun was a bit too little, but it was still doable to coordinate for a strike. The spybot non-immune was an issue but also doable, but they did revert so ppl should be happy about that, its now way stronger due to it cannot stun its own type. You can stack spybots to stun stronger units. But the spybot is currently balanced for mid-T2/early-T3. It excludes a few units from becoming stunned from a single spybot and i see no issue with that, there are other units to use (which are also op).

prime ermine
honest nimbus
#

main purpose of a spy was delay t3 push, atm rushed t3 is unstopable

barren prawn
prime ermine
#

and that means... noone should? 🙂

honest nimbus
#

that means they are ineffective counter to anything what its suposed to counter

prime ermine
#

i understand the spybot nerf is huge, but what else would you balance it to. The stun length and emp dmg is the issue why its so good

honest nimbus
#

if u would look unit stat u see buildtime

#

if u try to use spyes as anti t2 its not efficent

#

and still how u counter those few razorbacks that enemy team can rush

#

and how can we discuss things with a guy that is not plaing?XD

#

dude theorycrafted some balance in his own world, active players says its not working, he keeps defending changes

prime ermine
honest nimbus
#

resons behind the changes are jahaness and rebelnode's playstyle i think

tardy basin
#

Spybots still in bad state imo, i tested a lot of interactions, for example 1 spybot not stunning a tiger is weird, 2 spybots should be enough for t3 & big t2 (tzar/fatboy with xp bonus) units, moreover they cost A LOT OF E (cor one 12 000E) AND BP (22 000 iirc) for their emp damage. I made a 7 points suggestions action to improve the state, now i think update for more emp damage (10K ?) OR lower E and/or BP should make it. The initial overnerf did a lot of damage on the game state, it was just a "kill a mechanic" without any refinement in interaction between all units & builds in the game with their different HP. The good improvement from the season patch is the ability to just "set target" and move spybots on enemies lines, it is clearly a QOL improvement compared to huge concentrate to self-d in 3s on the perfect area.

honest nimbus
#

maybe peole with different game style need to work on balance. Someone who used to carry with spam raid units and someone who used to counter such plays

#

but both those guys using only raid units since i know them

#

so this ended with overnerfing counterplays to pure spam carrying

prime ermine
#

Thats also a thing that armada spybot is better due to lower costs, not sure it matters but the BT difference is kinda big iirc

honest nimbus
#

its cause races have their uniq sides. ARM used to have better jammer and more cloacking technologies, core used to be raw tanky solid style

#

arm spy have to be better then core one if u folow that idea

#

y and thats why arm t1 jammer was cloakable

#

it was op but cause juno is very hard to use in t1 stage it is draining a lot e and even some metal

#

so when u were ready to clean t1 jammer enemy had time to tier up

grizzled atlas
#

i haven't made spybot but it's cause im lazy it's apm sink
stun banisher ez gaming

#

it's still 20 sec disable on static right?

honest nimbus
#

10?

#

u wont have time to make dps army and 10 spybots

grizzled atlas
#

on buildings its a different duration, at least antinuke

honest nimbus
#

y on antinukes its different

#

so spy from intresting (a bit overpowered) crowd controll unit became useless 1 pupose unit)

#

now its only 1 purpose gamble for a nuke(seismic radar easily counters that)

prime ermine
grizzled atlas
#

pitbull is taking 50% dmg btw cause it's popped down

prime ermine
#

ya lol

grizzled atlas
#

does spybot stun for 10 or 20 sec vs mobile anti tho

prime ermine
#

thats a good question

#

it should but i think not 😄

honest nimbus
#

but u will have issues with dps killing enemy army

#

that is stuned only for 10 seconds and u used all ur buildpower on spybots production

grizzled atlas
#

i mean you just make 1-2

#

8 sec spybot is useless but 10 is getting there

barren prawn
#

spybot has a similar illusion to rolling bomb(which was never OP and nerfed anyways btw). Costs a ton of E/BP, and everyone acts like it's free or something when it lock up your lab forever, and then, in order to get any value from it you have to time things perfectly. Make it make sense.

grizzled atlas
#

rolling bomb power level depends a lot on the E economy of the map and the fact that navy anti-depth charges suck

#

and has the benefit of being less visible, kills rez subs and subs, doesn't leave wrecks in case things go wrong

#

full speed UW rolling bombs was a joke

#

early game definitely the E cost and BP are heavy. later game converted M is the only limiting factor. 225 metal + bunch of bp cost unit stunning multiple t3 units for 20 sec is crazy

prime ermine
#

the speed nerf in sea totally nerfed rolling bombs to not usable without transport. Even if you make it work in sea by some incredible micro you probably dont get the value you want due to spherical explosion range and the huge hp pool of ships

grizzled atlas
#

the point is not to be 100% cost effective it's the flexibility

#

rolling bomb can threaten the lab, walk onto land

#

and your goal is to swing the reclaim fight

barren prawn
#

I effectively never died to rolling bombs on sea(not a good sea player according to people that think they're good). Sea players just cried, and I played 1 game w/ a mid 20 OS dev and they got nerfed. It was a skill issue. Nerfing a t2 unit that costs 200M converted(not to mention BP) b/c the t1 units that kill everything can't kill them is full dent. So instead we return to the recurring theme of sea being imbalanced. smh. Anywho, spybots stunning a naked tzar w/ no spam / support is fine. How long is the question. b/c it takes forever to make a spybot and a lot more work to use.

grizzled atlas
#

65+5800/60 = 161, vs 305 for a platypus

#

tumbleweed are also a top counter to plats and ducks

barren prawn
#

I would agree w/ the platy part and partially the duck part...but only when I see anyone other than me do it. B/c I never see any use them for that. It takes a good deal of effort

fast obsidian
prime ermine
#

If you dont like what i have to say then block me, but you dont tell me where i should speak and where i cannot

prime ermine
blazing onyx
#

@prime ermine as an interested observer with no stake either way, you are coming across as a bit of a time waster.

If you look through the thread there have been people just like you with strong opinions but little to no skill/experience who think this is the place to spew their mind-drivel.

Why don’t you go contribute to a thread about inventing a new epic unit for Legion, or lore for a 4th faction instead?

prime ermine
#

the time waste comes from having to type a lot of responses to why im even allowed to speak, if im not allowed in here then ban me devs from this channel, then you made your point clear. Until then i will speak when i want to and if you dont like it block me.

And you have no knowledge of my skill nor experience with this game so keep that for yourself. I dont go around calling people noobs so why should you.

blazing onyx
candid grove
harsh egret
#

So what has been concluded I am really just waiting for a new balance update at this point

tulip laurel
eternal osprey
tulip laurel
eternal osprey
#

Yeah I was hoping mine layer getting mine reveal would have been enough coupled with it's old attack to keep them in check but nerfing mines + mine layer reveal + mine layer losing aoe attack was just a bit too much imo.

prime ermine
#

i gotta defend mines and minelayer here. Minelayer reveal is NOT too short. The auto-attack is too short if you use f-move with hold pos or manuver yes, but if you do it manually its fine. And you arent suppose to clear mines with minelayer but use other units with it: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2465183531

Twitch
Mine clearing - mesaber on Twitch

mesaber went live on Twitch. Catch up on their Beyond All Reason VOD now.

#

Its super quick mine clearing

#

As for mines being too E expensive, you wont be finding that dps per energy anywhere else, the heavy mine cost ~50m/~3000e over the course of 17 secs assuming you dont have assisters (like conbots/veh), so the energy drain per sec isnt as awful as before, an estore or two fixes this issue completely (it did in previous iteration too).

grizzled atlas
#

mine e drain is overstated
as long as you are not sillywith them

prime ermine
#

i dont mean the e drain but the building drain 🙂

#

as you build it, whatever thats called 😄

#

3000 E over 17s is -176 E/s (e drain)

grizzled atlas
#

yeah but it's just because of the low bp cost

prime ermine
#

bp cost is higher than before, the previous E drain was like -1000 E/s

#

mines were unbuildable without having e buffer

#

what bigallman is saying is he wants to build army AND mines at the same time, not choose between em, while a heavy mine costing 3k E is like a few thugs worth.

prime ermine
#

minelayers reveal works like ICS, it goes through terrain, worth noting.

image.png
#

that in itself could seem a bit strong on say canyon glitters, where a minelayer can see around mountains 😄

odd swallow
#

Why nerf Banisher turn speed and acceleration. These are the least fun stats to nerf. T-T

Responsiveness feels good. Being kinda nimble was part of Banisher's identity as a skirmisher.

chilly heath
#

To be fair the mobility nerfs were pretty small. Makes them a bit easier to catch sometimes, but in most situations probably more like "-1 % mobility, +10 emotional damage to user when turning" because they remember the nerf even if it feels almost same.

scarlet mirage
chilly heath
#

I don't think catapult range buff is being considered. In general things that outrange pulsar and other T2 defenses should be plasma weapons stopped by shields.

grizzled atlas
#

good point
cortex does have the tac launcher

harsh egret
#

Love of god please make a balance change 😭 tired of this balance

subtle jasper
#

A balance change, any balance change, you say?
Remove flagship add black prince for all factions

frozen spire
#

I've created another post about this, but I'm also writing here nonetheless. Supreme 2.0 has been updated to Supreme 2.1 due to some balance issues, including the untouchable build power on the mountain in the Geo Sea spot. However, players can still build untouchable build power on the island, which is just as unfair as the previous issue.

If you changed the map from version 2.0 to 2.1 to fix the untouchable build power on the Geo Sea mountain, you should also fix it on the island. I've attached the necessary screenshots in my separate post.

grizzled atlas
#

rocket hovers maybe

crude delta
#

Please buff grunt or at the very least reconsider the decision of not adding any new units to base factions

I've said it before and I've said it again, "The grunt is doing the job of 3 seperate units at once and it's shit at all 3 unless you're a pro with ungodly micro skill"

grizzled atlas
#

agree, if grunt is doing too many roles the lab is either cripplied when it sucks or untouchable if it's too good

crude delta
#

Oh yeah I never considered that effect from the grunt doing too much at once

distant citrus
grizzled atlas
#

heavy com drop every game xD

image.png
#

a flak truck wasn't in the perfect position so the com landed close enough to walk

#

imo it's not a good way to balance the air lab's power budget

#

requires little investment and is disproportionately hard to defend without always having similiar fig count

#

you can play it YOLO style or just hop around if they don't have a air lab

#

It would be different if the transport couldn't do the landing micro to stay close to the ground

placid eagle
grizzled atlas
#

mauser/jag/bull/starlight proving all extremely strong in the 3v3 tourney (different map but I have similiar experience playing on glitters/straight)

#

mobile, high output for cost

#

PRO vs CN on Pool of Ilys

#

CN played very well but I did not really see any point in that game where the arm t2 bot lab was achieving something significant

#

despite the considerable terrain vehicles didn't seem too hampered by it

#

not to mention the lack of flack trucks being a huge liability if the enemy team is the first to get to nuke bomber w/ air control

nuke bomber if you have air control gives insane map control / threat, since the map has 3 seperated lanes which must be protected from aa seperately.

#

if vehicles can maneuveur even on this map, maybe you have to consider rebalancing bots vs vehicles and/or decrease vehicle slope tolerance

placid eagle
#

If t2 bots had good AA it would make the lab sooo much more viable

#

Flak alone makes t2 vehicles feel like a better choice

grizzled atlas
#

on a map where you can abuse spider / amphib / fatboy more maybe. like angel's crossing

placid eagle
#

Flak is just hands down the best AA

grizzled atlas
#

I think that it's restrictive that t2 arm's bot main combat unit choice is the sniper, or hound/recluse

#

sniper is well balanced but sniper welder just struggles to be proactive

#

recluse also got rightly rebalanced, while recluse/plat/webber is a nice flexible comp, hounds just are a bit lacking for a main battle unit

#

t2 cor bots extremely dependent on sheldon/fiend
t2 armbots decently reliant on hound

placid eagle
#

T2 bots definitely could use buffs for sure

grizzled atlas
#

difference is t2 arm has some situational options like gunslinger, recluse, etc.

placid eagle
#

It feels like they should have more tempo or something. Cor t2 bots get the fiend, but arm bots get to kick rocks

#

Unless sprinters somehow became good without any changes

grizzled atlas
#

sprinters are not* that bad

#

specific purpose

empty yew
#

Arm bots still good versatile lab, webbers are underrated, gunsliner needs attention but can do stuff, and has butlers

grizzled atlas
#

I'll open a more specific thread on t2 bot vs veh balance ig

empty yew
#

Just isnt really a big pushing lab

grizzled atlas
#

the nice thing about butler is the speed and using the bp from idle t2 lab

placid eagle
empty yew
#

Botlab AA needs serious tweaks and go from there. Bad AA is a real turnoff in a game where air switch is a norm

grizzled atlas
#

plats are a great amphib but somehow arm veh is even better at making them than arm bots

#

because you can pass out consuls / reclaim lab, and multi-blueprint avoiding walkoff time

#

2-3 jags well microed has incredible map impact in cleaning up leaks and swiftly deflecting spam

empty yew
#

Spybot and AA changes need IMO. Let the lab be versatile bag of options, but if those options suck ass, well....

grizzled atlas
#

starlight: -1 speed, +8% burst damage, -10% reload speed, 13500->14500 energy cost
jaguar: 90->87 speed, -5% damage, loses aa weapon, gains 80% emp resist (buff jag hp slightly if it's struggling in lower os)
consul: loses the platypus build option, add platypus to amphib lab instead
mauser: 320->340 metal (also mausers feel very floaty since they drift a lot for being an artillery unit)

hound: give back gauss cannon or increase projectile speed
gunslinger: reduce hp scaling, increase starting hp. give modest aoe so it can kill ticks
t2 aa bot: give 80% emp resist, reduce cost, and make them cost effective single target anti-gunship, unlike flak. give archangel an hp buff, manticore a fair speed increase
welder: +2 speed

#

aa should beat gunships handily in a local area at similiar cost. air is meant to be used to outmaneveur and divide and conquer

grizzled atlas
#

This makes starlight closer in speed to other heavy tank or long range options like tzar, medusa, tremor, negotiator. it cannot so easily charge them. Starlight when supported with beamers or other antispam is a suprisingly good at killing pawns. The firerate change makes them less of a generalist, e cost makes them harder to rush.
Bull is left untouched because it is intended to be the main battle tank, and it has reasonable counters in all labs.

#

Jag nerf to reduce jag map presence and impact compared to other equivalent units (sumo, welder, salamander)

lunar hollow
#

i think jaguar is the big thing making the vehicle lab so good for arm, starlight on its own is vulnurable

#

but allso, if you want to remove platy from consul why not readd hound since we all agree it kinda sucks

grizzled atlas
#

because the hound needs to exist as the main mobile unit for arm lab
if it sucks the arm t2 lab is in a flawed state

#

consul list is already OP utility

#

pawns without lab, destroyer, con ship, mines, beamers, rattle, etc.

empty yew
#

Consul is great yes. I like your starlight changes and jag too.

grizzled atlas
#

consul is too good, arm vehicle lab overstepping on arm bot lab. not even arm bots can make pawns without having a t1 lab

empty yew
#

I'm not sure about t2 aa bot changes, feels like good single target AA isnt very impactful. I'd almost rather they are also mediocre good vs multiple, but more spammable (cheaper)

grizzled atlas
#

it lets you defend gunship and nuke bomber

empty yew
#

I guess

grizzled atlas
#

but doesn't punish air player as much from sending fig over your army. flak truck is better for covering friendly air

empty yew
#

What's medusa?

grizzled atlas
#

it's the legion homing heavy rocket. starlight / banisher equivalent

empty yew
#

Hound could honestly have better turn speed. A lot of times it struggles to turn around fast, while also being a fast cheap skirmisher t2

#

So it takes pot shots but it having aluminum hull, pot shots hurt

#

If this was starcraft, id give hounds pounce so they could shoot their shoots and punce from range xD

#

But faster leg movement when turning around works too

cosmic garden
#

Medusa take too much time to aim and reach target compared to other long range solution like starlight which mena it often doesnt shot at all or have to bput itself in danger for too long

tulip laurel
#

Its a more expensive, sittier t1 aa bot

tulip laurel
empty yew
# tulip laurel Its a more expensive, sittier t1 aa bot

Yeah i know, t2 bot is trash. maybe good single target on t2 AA bot is the way, and dealing with bombers is relegated to ground AA or vehicles. But at the same time, veh being able to deal with bombers is a big reason why botlab is a lackluster option in many games.

Tbh, if bots stay more single target, they need more movement and fixed missiles (they are buggy!)

livid bay
#

I would say right now dont touch the veh lab, but buff the T2 bot lab units slightly. AA Bot: reduce cost, increase rof. Sniper: lower burst, increase hp by 10%, increase rof. Hounds get back gauss mode.. as examples

placid eagle
#

Yeah t2 bots getting buffed/reworked would be so nice

#

It seems like their AA bots should just be flak tbh, theres no other viable AA right now

grizzled atlas
#

there's no need for it to HAVE to be flak

#

so i rather it be anti gunship single target and have good dps then be crappy flak

#

it also distinguishes the two aa's

placid eagle
viral valley
#

let gunslingers shoot / hit air too

grizzled atlas
#

since devs noted t2 aa weakness is intentional for bots

placid eagle
#

Gunslingers can kill shuris before they stun them if theyre in low enough numbers

harsh egret
harsh egret
#

anyways hound buff

#

I wont stop complaining until this unit reccieve one.

scarlet mirage
#

They have 69 move and alot of range, its really not so bad for big map

#

on paper something like hound/platty does well on jade for example

visual wolf
#

I know it's not a good argument... but who in their right mind would play jade empress xD

empty yew
#

I had some nasty experience with hounds taking a long time to turn 180, they should have turn buffed imo

#

Or accel. Not sure what helps more

placid eagle
barren prawn
#

yep, hounds feels terrible to use....so I've probably built 6 in 6 months

visual wolf
#

i haven't built a t2 botlab once since the nerf

grizzled atlas
#

i've never opened cor bots (1v1 or team game) or go arm t2 bots seriously

grizzled atlas
#

err, cor bots only for thug pushing on short rush distance maps

placid eagle
#

Yep seems like a T2 bot lab buff would be nice

#

Bots could use better T2 AA as well. It doesnt need to be flak but definitely not what they have now

#

Maybe if T2 Bot AA was instead like a mobile chainsaw/eradicator it would be better?

humble lake
#

and maybe also has more heavy projectiles

placid eagle
#

As long as it works as well as flak does I think we'll all be pretty happy

tropic aurora
#

Except the balance team. I thought the it was a point that the bot labs had a big weakness over the vehicle labs.

silver gulch
visual wolf
#

sniper?

silver gulch
#

Starlight outranges, outdps's, outperforms?

scarlet mirage
#

snipers can cloak and target starlights and kite stuff, so there is that

visual wolf
#

Sniper can cloak in jammer, and you can hold fire + set target

#

and immediately kite back. Also they have like 50 less range, that's nothing

#

AND they don't chain

grizzled atlas
#

if you are chaining your starlights that's on you

#

the joke is starlight is a melee unit

#

does double damage at point blank range, and even damages enemies when it dies!

harsh egret
#

Snipers are amazing

#

Anyways balancing team I beg just change stats give us something to look forward to in terms of balancing

placid eagle
barren prawn
#

ngl just change hound weapon to gauss and it might be usuable again(nostalgic too)

scarlet mirage
#

broodwar meta is still evolving after 20 years of no patches

placid eagle
lunar hollow
#

why would you want a t2 unit that has the weapon of a t1 unit? its literally just a stout in bot form

#

meanwhile:
Rocket bot turns into Recluse (3round burst)
shellshocker turns into mauser (direct fire)
lasher turns into banisher (big SWOOSH)

#

the gauss cannon is a good progression from the slow ass plasma and it allso mirrors the pitbull and cortex having the scorpion and banisher

hollow dawn
#

and also... it's the original weapon after all

placid eagle
#

Yeah gauss is also just a very interesting and fun weapon which should be one of armada's signature weapon

#

GDT wants each faction to only get one signature weapon though

woeful fiber
#

So uh.... what's Legion's "one signature weapon" emopopcorn

#

honestly... that doesn't even check out for the game. Arm has tachyon and lighting, core has fire and heat rays that's 2 each right there

visual wolf
#

legion has heat rays

#

and machineguns

woeful fiber
#

and napalm, and white plasma

#

could proly find a few more ands in there as well

barren prawn
placid eagle
#

Most of my anyone's suggestions get pushback there

barren prawn
#

it's okay I have lots of free advice, it is the internet after all. Also thousands of hours and an avg of 6 games per day for the last 2 years but who's counting

#

can't get too flustered, if there are no specifics tho

harsh egret
civic lynx
# placid eagle GDT wants each faction to only get one signature weapon though

Where can we get this information on what principles and boundaries have been applied to development and balance?

Personally I agree tho, it is a complicated game and while units can and should be different, making bunch of different weapon types just for the sake of it being cool make learning the game extremely hard. Limiting to one per faction is imo a good limitation.

placid eagle