#Season 2 balance feedback

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

lunar hollow
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Don't ball them up or you get the full AOE

crisp bison
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You get 5 Fiends for each Banisher, and if spread-out Banisher cannot one-shot them. In effect, Banishers are T2 analogue to Lashers.

lunar hollow
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Fiends will die to other things easily tho, not very good investement long term, only advisable if you have some remaining t1 to spearhead for them

crisp bison
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Well other things are not Banishers, hence no need for a debuff. Their DPS is horrendous, they're relatively brittle, have decent speed and AA capability. So yeah, Lashers but on T2. You do not trade with Lashers and you do not trade with Banishers - you either rush your way in, you push your way through, or you outrange them. Trading with them is what they're made for.

lunar hollow
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T2 might be missing that easy solution that is equivalent to building an HLT vs whistler

crisp bison
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Whistlers outrange HLT

lunar hollow
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The 700 weapon range refer to AA, I'm pretty sure their actual rockets have less then 620 range

wraith slate
crisp bison
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That is true, my bad.

wraith slate
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Don't think it does? Nevertheless yes, banishers are like t2 lashers

crisp bison
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Though HLT costs more than 3 Whistlers/Lashers, so by the same margin you can afford a Rattle, which absolutely wrecks Banishers

lunar hollow
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Yeah rattlesnake gaming is pretty busted anyways

crisp bison
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That's really not the point. The point is, Banishers has DPS only higher (in T2) than the Quaker/Mauser, which costs 2.5 times less each.

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The burst is intimidating and effective, but any direct, prolonged combat would expose their weak side.

scarlet mirage
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send like 5 pawns forward to bait all the banishers to fire than you commit the good units and dive them

fast obsidian
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it's fine they need to data to realize banisher buff was mega stupid, just gotta suffer from 3 months of this so they finally revert it
don't matter it will upset everyone and make half the player base quit

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tzar first to kill all the commander super fast and then banisher on repeat that can not be killed by anything

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amazing gameplay update, very cool

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Tzar didn't use to have op slamander to help him, that was a huge buff already
now you have buffed tzar again massively by revoving sneaky pete /spybots
and then you have added the biggest buff by making banisher unkillable t2 janus
and then you say it's a coop issue, yes sir

verbal yacht
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pretty much every game rn is banisher race and the worst part is the mirror match is one of the most aids interactions in the game now that banisher has 360 turret, first person to move forwards gets blasted without the opportunity to fire back

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the unit was intentionally gatekept to later phases of the game by its high energy cost as it quite literally hard counters every other early t2 strategy lol

grizzled atlas
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can't you commie starlight with e storage?

verbal yacht
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maybe if you’re really desperate to play something off meta, but you’re basically doing a worse version of banisher at that point since you have way less mobility and the other units in the lab are much worse than tiger stats

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banisher can move to nearby lanes very quickly as it’s quite mobile and starlight cannot chase without mispositioning, starlight purely defensive in this situation

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and when banisher breaks through it also pursues enemies faster than starlight can

grizzled atlas
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honestly i'd mass pawns to kill the stuff that would charge the starlights

verbal yacht
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And can go much further without being overextended

grizzled atlas
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yeh

verbal yacht
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Pretty much every game I played today is banisher wins, when it’s mirror match it’s just whoever got banisher faster wins, and whenever there’s lane races one side of the map with arm veh and the other with core veh the core veh always rolls faster than arm veh does and wins the overall game

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in general arm veh pushes/starlight pushes also just feel like there’s more counterplay, especially since you can rush them down and starlight can’t retreat, against banisher tiger you’re just helpless

empty yew
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Funny how there were threads with 1000s msgs about banisher being underpowered, but now everybody says its always been on brink of OP, just 1 step away

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Maybe if sneaky pete returns we can finally again post 1000 msgs how its op

cobalt brook
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there might be a bias now, with people hearing banisher has been buffed, how it's OP, for now everyone wants to test this and focus on them.

placid eagle
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And also, if this is starting to happen it might just take time for people to figure out how to effectively counter them.

ancient lance
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People forget they are expensive

cobalt brook
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ticks don't counter them ?

fast obsidian
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depend on what os you are talking about, banisher pretty much like janus now

empty yew
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But isnt janus rarely made in high OS?

cobalt brook
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High OS aren't aligned on lanes, it's a quick way to kill a low OS com on your lane

fast obsidian
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janus can lose to ticks unless you unlock hold fire op button
some goes for the tremors

verbal yacht
wraith slate
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Banisher honestly could have all buffs reverted and it'd still be fine. Thought personally I'd like them to keep 360 turret, feels nicer to controll

verbal yacht
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now with reduced energy cost you can easily produce them on repeat on pretty much nonexistent eco scaling, which is really unhealthy as it totally counters the full set of units that are actually balanced for the early t2 phase like recluse, hound, sheldon, tzar, bull, jaguar, pretty much everything except starlight and sniper never had a chance against banisher lol

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yeah, reverting the buffs just sets it back to being an apex skirmisher that you can either sack a bit of early eco to get out early, or first scale more before you "unlock" the unit, which is fine

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i dont like the 360 turret because it breaks engagements where banishers vs banishers or banishers vs sheldons becomes really unhealthy for the aggressor, since they always get fired on due to overshoot without ever being able to fire back

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the unit didn't seem overwhelming or even outstanding in older metas where by the time you could afford banishers, people were generally progressed enough to afford counterplay

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but that's just healthy gameplay lol, unit has always been one of the most threatening roaming options due to its speed and tankiness, and everything should have counterplay options available within the same gameplay progression state

cobalt brook
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so what are you in favor of ? A reduced energy cost but not as much as right now, and just revert the other changes to the unit itself ?

verbal yacht
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honestly can’t go wrong with revert unit didn’t need a buff in the first place, unit might get more attention in general now that people have been abusing it this season

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You can do same banisher rush strategies just can’t leave it on repeat with brain off until you progress eco a bit more

fast obsidian
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the fact people can just go anywhere without needing to be mindfull about getting dgun or emp really made the gameplay stupid anyways

verbal yacht
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lol yea idk why they keep shifting game in that direction, both are counterable with support but now they’re countered for free

cobalt brook
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well I think people have been looking for an "easy" unit in Cortex, some unit you don't need to escort with spam and stuff... But the issue isn't that Cortex hasn't got any, it's that Armada has them.

fast obsidian
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it's like playing chess and one day the devs decide randomly you gonna play some checkers and that's it
really interesting concept

cobalt brook
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For example, being able to just spam jags and it's so hard to EMP due to the AA, and it can't be countered by ticks due to the lightning bounce...

verbal yacht
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I don’t like the concept of “easy” unit but salamander is pretty much that

cobalt brook
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yeah a few cortex unit have the flavor. Kargs' AA is insane for example

verbal yacht
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you can monospam something without support to punish someone who isn’t playing to defensive strengths and greeded instead

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Against an effective and well microed and intentional defense I think it’s reasonable for assault to be slightly more difficult

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scaling to impossible to assault if the skill gap is too big

cobalt brook
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I remember people complaining so much about banishers, them being so weak and starlights so strong. Then Raghna showed you needed a diverse army, with spam and stuff, to use it properly. But people went "waaaa" because they couldn't be bothered with the extra effort.

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IMO that extra effort is what makes it fun to play Cortex...

fast obsidian
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Changes made reflect very well the people who made them

verbal yacht
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yea cortex veh has been king of t2 for a while it just might need some more intentional micro and decision making, which is fine

placid eagle
gilded token
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I get what people are saying, but this counter argument is actually not great because them costing zero E does sometimes make them 'free' energy in a way. I sometimes build some of them just to turn around and eat them right after for 100% of the metal back, because when you have spare metal and build power, you can temporarily convert that to 'free' energy instead of it just sitting in your bank as unused metal. People think of them as inefficient, which they are, but they also act as a temporary metal storage that provides energy instead of costing it.

unreal pecan
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right, and its one of the reasons basic solars are very good when wind is crashing which gives a reason to use them

placid eagle
unreal pecan
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yes, but as doushibag said, basic solars are very good when you have idle bp, low e, and extra metal

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i just disagree with the original idea someone posted that you can ignore how much bp and E something costs to use

placid eagle
crisp bison
empty yew
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Should both jammers be stealty then?

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XD might as well go that route

crisp bison
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I mean, they are stealthy given they jam the radar...

hollow dawn
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is this like asking if water is wet?

crisp bison
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You can literally spam Mausers, and that hard-counters Banishers... I just don't understand...

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Jesus, I bet you can spam Gremlins, and they still be able to wreck Banishers. It's like a Whistler Syndrome or something.

unreal pecan
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no.

crisp bison
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no what?

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you're not giving us any S2 feedback?

unreal pecan
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i want you to post a replay of gremlins countering banishers

crisp bison
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I might try eventually just for giggles

empty yew
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Banisher gigagood

sullen mesa
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And running away

crisp bison
sullen mesa
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It has longer range than other high instant damage units

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Therefore can kill them before they can be used to the same purpose

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It is also faster than them

crisp bison
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Yup and it has lower values in other parameters. Anything can be called OP is you only consider the best features.

sullen mesa
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But the other parameters matter little if there is no way to take advantage of those

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How can you take advantage of the low health and long reload if you can't hit it

crisp bison
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You can? You just have to commit. Its the same as with Whistlers.

sullen mesa
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Whistlers deal very little damage they are like mosquitos and banishers are like hornets. You could survive a hundred mosquito bites, but not 100 hornet stings

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And you could just build a hlt

crisp bison
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And here you can just build a Rattlesnake

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But I guess we should take away cloaking from Sharpshooters, since they have a 2.5x harder one-tap over longer range for cheaper, becase that's the only thing that matters.

sullen mesa
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When did I say 1 tap+ long range= too op

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Snipers are slow and thier cloak only lasts prior to firing and they have low health

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They have 2 negitives and banishers have 1

crisp bison
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No, they also have 2

subtle jasper
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Clearly, 2 > 1

sullen mesa
sullen mesa
crisp bison
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They have low HP for the metal cost, and they have 7.5 reload time, which makes them the T2 vehicle with the lowest DPS after Mausers/Quakers, which in turn are light T2 costing 2.5x less.

verbal yacht
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realistically you often have better dps than that on a well microed banisher due to aoe being very consistent on banisher for hitting multiple targets, especially when clumped enemy/mismicroed enemy units but not only limited to this

sullen mesa
crisp bison
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They have AoE of Janus (128), which is pretty negligible when compared to other units relying heavily on Aoe like Ambassadors (150), Fatman (240) or (292)

crisp bison
sullen mesa
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Snipers are significantly easier to run down though

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Any bulk unit could overwhelm sniper, but bulk units get shredded by banishers aoe+ease of running away

crisp bison
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yup, they're easier. That's the nature of playing Bots versus Vehicles. It is also a nature of playing Arm vs Cor.

sullen mesa
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Sure, but not to the extent that it's at right now with the banisher

crisp bison
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Why not?

sullen mesa
crisp bison
# sullen mesa Refer to previous in this conversation

I don't see the point. You have a unit that has particular features, and you cannot really point to one thing that makes them a problem for the cost they demand. That's all the Banishers are. They are counters to it at T2 just like there's counters to Whistlers at T1. Nothing about them is distinctly difficult to deal with.

sullen mesa
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I have, but if you choose not to see it I will take my leave

crisp bison
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If the same approach to solving every problem by spamming Hounds/Sheldons doesn't work against it, doesn't make it OP.

sullen mesa
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More than just hounds and Sheldon's don't work agenst it. A large part of t2 units and below don't trade into them

crisp bison
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That is true for majority of all units, depending on how specialized they are. Units counter other units.

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But people just don't see past the meta. When we're talking about units not trading into them, take 1 or 2 Banishers and see which units for the same cost will defeat them.

sullen mesa
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Usually the units that counter other units is achievable in the same or simmalar economic state

crisp bison
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Yes, which is established by the cost of the said unit

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So if you can build Banishers, then you also can build a Rattlesnake to zone them out, or to build a few Shooters to one-tap them.

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Or you can build 2.5 Sheldons per Banisher to kite them. Or you can build a Spybot to stun them. And so on.

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The only plausible reason why some people have issues with them is because they never actually saw them do anything meaningful when their E/BP cost was at the level of T3 for absolutely no reason.

hollow dawn
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just nerf banishor speed or wyhatever then

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don't really need 54 speed kiting unit in the game, it can do a decent job at 45 probably

crisp bison
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A better suggestion would be to roll-back the 360deg rotation of the turret. This change was uncalled for.

grizzled atlas
crisp bison
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Then it would further implicate its vulnerability to direct response.

grizzled atlas
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it's not just durrhurr walk backwards

crisp bison
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Yes. It still retains its skirmisher role, but it punishes the lack of cover

hollow dawn
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not having 360 is a bigger nerf then the direct speed imo, you have to do some awkward zigzags to get full use out of it

crisp bison
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I don't believe so. Even if you can't fire back, you still can get them into safety. And yes, you'd have to maneuver them well, which is a micro benefit.

grizzled atlas
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yeh non 360 firing is pretty tricky to micro (mauser/quaker)

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they only fire every 7 seconds so it's not so bad

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when you running you have to choose between dps and shortest path to safety

crisp bison
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Yeah. If you run, you run. If you kite, you kite. Not both at the same time.

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I feel perfectly justified with the change of cost, and I think its pretty close to the values I have proposed in the associated thread, BUT I have never advocated for the turret to be 360deg free.

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It feels like it should be a natural penalty for having the burst and the speed.

sullen mesa
pearl merlin
gilded token
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Just wait until they add in overkill protection for units like Banishers, then things will get really spicy with them.

forest girder
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welcome to being a victim of the gdt

scarlet mirage
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did you guys know that ghosts got buffed vs stuff like banisher? 🥷

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its too early to call it op, let ppl adapt for more than a week

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kneejerk reactions=no good

tardy basin
scarlet mirage
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move cost got buffed and they gained right click target selfd

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which is instant unlike the old 3sec

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and ghost still 1shot emp's a banisher

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banishers are not that tanky and there are not gonna be many of them

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so if you can stun it and cant kill it in under 8sec its more or less skill issue

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ghost player team is also likely to have more spam than than the banisher rushing team since its a common (and effective) response

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meaning its even simpler to get the emp

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also consider that even a 2 ghost for 1 banisher trade means you are trading about equal e cost and like 25% metal cost only

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its an efficient trade

fast obsidian
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...

scarlet mirage
fast obsidian
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you need lot of time to close the gap after you emped
and spies don't do anything again tzar, tigers and salamander even if you get the perfect spy somehow on the banisher, it would achieve nothing
spies were already barely used before the 90% nerf, there were good in some cases but most people learnt to deal with them already
sure if you send 5 razors on the other side of the map far away from the front running in blind there is high changes they get emped but that's clearly a gamble hoping enemy isn't prepared. Now it's just meta to play stupid

scarlet mirage
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got it👍vs pure banisher rush it might not be completely useless tho

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(we are doing those on glitter atm)

unreal pecan
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i very rarely see people rush a banisher and not have other t1 units from teammates covering it to win the lane

fast obsidian
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i mean sure with 2 spies and like 25 pawns rdy to rush in, they are fast enough to go in before the emp ends, you probably will kill some banisher
that could work on average os lobbies i guess but usually people have ticks, grunt/pawns spam with them, a commander, a tzar that can't be emped, few salamander ect
it's like super risky to all in your defence on a few spies when it has very low chances of working coz the spies are terrible now

it was already risky to defend with spy before the change, you had to not get t2 bot lab scouted so people don't know a spy is coming, find a way to dodge the units and have a commander rdy to dgun
now with 8 secs you can't even get the commander to dgun the things in time

cobalt brook
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plus let's be honest, it was hilarious to see Baron mass EMP multiple shivas and razors

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doesn't feel good for the team that invested in T3, but like Raikoh says, they should have had spam with them if they wanted to avoid that

fast obsidian
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yea op baron, i was victim of that one game i member
but that spybots spam on repeat comes later into the game, when you have just a t2 lab with 20 nanos doing spybot on repeats, even with good spam it's hard to deal with
that's what mobile anti nuke stealth detection would hard counter, coz on maps like starwatcher which is long distances, there is no way you can build stealth detection

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it's basically the same thing with nuke, if there was no mobile anti nuke, you can just spam nuke on armies trying to push out and they never gonna be able to push you
which we still see often when people forget to make mobile anti nuke even on small maps like rosetta

eternal osprey
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I do have a small concern with just adding the ics to mobile antis. It adds even more functionality to one lab for each faction that the other lab doesn't get.

It's already annoying enough that mobile anti itself is limited to a single lab similar to how t2 AA is practically a single lab for each faction as flak trucks are so much better than t2 AA bots it's not even funny.

By the time having mobile anti/ics is truly necessary I suppose it's easy enough to afford swapping labs but I feel this would definitely heavily incentivize going for the lab with support units even more than now.

It also removes alot of potential for emping anti nukes if you just get ics baked in if you build the mobile variant.

scarlet mirage
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"It also removes alot of potential for emping anti nukes if you just get ics baked in if you build the mobile variant." -good

fast obsidian
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if they just triple buff units randomly like they did, it would just make core veh t2 insanely op anyways so best to watch from afar when non players are controlling the ship

eternal osprey
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Mobile anti + Ics also just thematically kinda feels like it would have the juno problem of we gave this unit these widely differing abilities rolled into one unit because we know they're needed but we don't want unit bloat.

And yeah 360 deg banisher with a buff to cost although it's fun to be the user of was very much a big misstep.

pearl merlin
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just nerf the e cost of banisher to something around 19-20k E

odd swallow
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When I said Banisher was strong, they called me a madman. ;V

tropic aurora
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Still waiting for poison arrow to be noticed. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride.

verbal yacht
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poison arrow was decently common on amphib maps until they added salamander which people prefer now since it does everything in 1 with no support so its easier to play

flint ginkgo
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What have we done to deserve this banisher change

covert hollow
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xd

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May I have everyones attention please

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I figured out a way to save the spybot. Give it self jamming like the gremlin has. The nerf to the emp intensity and duration suggests its being pushed more into a scouting / vision role for stuff like hounds or mauser or whatever. In that case pls give it jamming so it doesnt die to radar + 1 llt 🙂

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Otherwise, just go back to a strong emp (duration and strength) and give up something like vision range or idk what else would be an appropriate nerf to balance it

flint ginkgo
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Also since hounds have disappeared from the game maybe take the hint and, if they really must have only 1 fire mode, give them the other one. They don't seem to work as mauser-but-legged

visual wolf
cobalt brook
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yeah... that's why you need an anti intrusion system to counter them...

empty yew
pearl merlin
# visual wolf Spybots already have, and have always had stealth (aka jammer)

cloak = invisible, shows up on radar (skuttle, cloaked commander, cloaked sniper, cloakable fusion)
stealth = visible, does not show up on radar (negotiator/ambassador, t2 figs, abductor)
cloak + stealth = invisible, does not show up on radar (gremlin, spectre/ghost, perimeter camera)
jammer = visible, does not show up on radar, provides jamming radius (commando, minelayer, jammer)
radar = spots anything in its radius that isn't stealth or jammed

crisp bison
crisp bison
lunar hollow
crisp bison
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Wouldn't say they "shouldn't die to Banishers", they're both skirmishers after all.

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Honestly its more of a problem of Hounds, which suck desperately without gauss now.

lunar hollow
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I honestly think it would be more healthy if mausers and quakers had more range again, they where easy to counter with t1 (as long as there are no jags so maybe nerf them first)

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I allso sometimes think it was silly to remove hound from consul if you compare the gameplay of that era to current strats

crisp bison
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I was never actually positive about that nerf, just had to deal with it. The first Brightworks video featuring me was using Mauser lines, which wasn't actually common. You can still somehow compete with Sheldons using them, the difference in range isn't that great, but if Sheldons are microed well its still rough.

lunar hollow
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Early game has become more save as a consequence of mauser nerf and hound removal from consul, opening the meta to more greedy heavy unit rushes

crisp bison
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My opinion is that heavy unit rushes became common more as necessity, than a leisure, because they're the only one that can contain and counter Sheldons, who got left with little to no competition in T2 opening

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Hounds now feel completely castrated without the gauss mode, and even with it, I feel they lack speed to at least give them some certain key feature. Recluses got nerfed. Mausers/Quakers got nerfed. As result, the only thing that counters kiting Sheldon ball with static cover is another Sheldon ball. That, or a heavy unit rush, that can expose Sheldons to fast units like Fiends.

grizzled atlas
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starlight + a bit of spam

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depends on how wide open the map is

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recluse + spybot could work but feels like making life too hard for yourself

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you have to transport the recluse to get them their faster, and nail the spybots

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recluse are also slower than banisher making posturing (while your spybot looks for a hit) annoying

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maybe banisher does need 2-4 speed nerf

verbal yacht
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hounds aren't bad because they lost gauss, which was a mostly irrelevant fire mode, they're just bad because the meta is to rush banishers which hounds can't do anything about

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in a 'healthier' t2 meta where people do consider making units like bull, jaguar, recluse, then hound seems like a better unit as it isn't completely wrecked by those and can often be doing the wrecking themselves. Hounds can even choose to gap close vs sheldons and force trading, even if the matchup is sheldon favored generally. They have 0 ability to do anything vs banishers though

placid eagle
verbal yacht
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well banisher previously had a cost that incentivized waiting a bit longer before producing them, as you often wanted to at least a fusion first or so, this gave hounds and other earlygame t2 units a decently large phase to shine in where their anti t1 capabilities were valued.

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starlight still exists, you usually want your energy income to be a bit more sorted out before making them en masse, the cost to fire can be tough on low economy or even if wind stalls out on certain maps

placid eagle
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Do you have a suggestion then?

verbal yacht
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between starlight and banisher, banisher is much more flexible as it can retreat (even without 360 turret, only needed to wiggle a bit to fire backwards, which slowed down kiting momentum and ensured that enemy has a chance to fire back at the banisher), and is much faster

placid eagle
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Fair

verbal yacht
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well yea lol the suggestion would be to just go back to the old banisher values

wraith slate
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It was kind of underused before, but i think that was caused by people's sentiment on tzar rush/starlight push being 'better'

placid eagle
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Banishers are cool though Id rather they be strong

wraith slate
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Thought i would like 360 turret to stay, and just revert other buffs

placid eagle
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So is there a solution that isnt a full revert?

verbal yacht
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note that banishers actually have a decent amount of impulse, which also means that trying to push into it with stuff that doesn't insta die, is tougher, as your units will physically stop in their tracks for a brief moment after being hit

wraith slate
verbal yacht
wraith slate
verbal yacht
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we're talking about the best t2 skirmisher that beats everything except the very most energy hungry t2 options (starlight, sniper, bulwark, pulsar, old spybot), while being mobile enough to change lanes in an instant if those counters do show up

placid eagle
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Yeah youre right, they were good before the buffs, but why were they actually so underutilized?

verbal yacht
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the cross-map pressure you have is just unmatched, but people never abused it, because they like to tunnel vision into their lane

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if you tunnel vision into your lane, then starlight starts to seem like a better choice, as that's the niche they're optimized for

lunar hollow
verbal yacht
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starlight is a painfully slow unit that can't fire backwards and can't retreat, but will shoot everything in front of it

lunar hollow
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They are trash since the consul hound meta ended

verbal yacht
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but, yeah, hounds aren't the greatest anymore

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mostly because recluse does 90% of what you want hound to do, but 300% better, even after the recent nerf

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you only buy hounds for mobility, which is nice, but not mandatory

wraith slate
lunar hollow
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I think the playerbase matured to the point that they can handle consuls building hounds and mausers with longer range

verbal yacht
wraith slate
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even with old hounds with gauss

verbal yacht
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1 recluse has more impact than like, 3 hounds atm

wraith slate
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There wasn't ever a point to make em, if your above 3 chevs

verbal yacht
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while costing half the metal and like 1/4 of the energy

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recluse is like, cheaper than most t1 units in terms of energy lol

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thats why I mentioned bulls/jags since if enemy is reaching across an open map with those to raid with, hound is like the only option you have in the arm t2 bot lab, and isn't a bad one

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recluse/sniper both get outrun and hounds can comfortably kite bulls or small amounts of jag (hound needs metal advantage if jag, or it will be a close fight)

visual wolf
placid eagle
#

I wanna see hounds get gauss only

#

Arm is the gauss faction

verbal yacht
#

gauss would need a buff if so, its tough that swapping to gauss reduces your dps by so much

pearl merlin
#

banishers with the current stats but the old cost would be fine
at the old cost they couldn't be rushed easily, or effectively massed without 2 fusions

#

360 degree arc is a big help over the 270 because kiting at 270 or wiggling meant you got gap closed

verbal yacht
#

it needs to go back to 270 imo because interactions with overshoot are terrible, especially in banisher vs banisher mirror matches and banisher vs sheldon matchups

#

the rockets already apply an impulse that temporarily reduces movement

#

and you could choose to forgo dps if you wanted to retreat at full speed, aka you overextended

chilly heath
#

360 is quite fun though, I think people would dislike us if we take that toy away now. Maybe some -speed or -turnrate if it needs to be less maneuverable? Overshooting when running away is a thing for every unit in the game so dunno if that's a good enough reason to go back to 270.

hollow dawn
#

it's as fast as janus right now

#

so I think it's fair that it could be made worse in movement since it has such a long ranged weapon

#

whether that's arc or speed

verbal yacht
#

The maneuverability is the good thing about the unit, I wouldn’t make it worse on that end. Even with 270 turret it didn’t have trouble kiting it was just a decision to be made and allowed for skill expression

#

The overshoot is a good reason in this case because it makes certain matchups really unfun to play

fast obsidian
#

Please don't take away my t2 janus, i got used to it now, i wouldn't be happy if i had to think while playing the game again, tnk

crisp bison
#

However, I strongly disagree to rewinding the cost reduction, because as mentioned before, the unit cost must reflect its stats and capabilities, and not used as a "screening" to keep unit from being produced. If unit is incapable of justifying its cost (hey there Gunslinger), then it would simply not be used.

verbal yacht
#

costs are commonly used to split the game up into multiple phases even within tiers, and encourages you to progress your economy in order to comfortably produce different things

#

it also adds additional complexity to the game, for example producing some units may allow you to spend your metal faster, others may allow you to efficiently turn additional energy you have into frontline power, and of course large upfront costs add additional risk to choosing that unit as you must spend the full metal value before the unit exists at all

#

you can accomplish this while keeping costs that match up with the unit's stats, dunno why you think the two ideas are mutually exclusive

#

As a side note, gunslinger just seems like a poor choice because recluse has been overbuffed over the patches and does generally the same thing as gunslinger but much better, at far less micro/apm requirement and far less resource requirement.

#

plus, it also readily loses to banisher

#

I like that you mentioned gunslinger because the biggest counters to gunslinger in the past have been constrained behind higher energy cost barriers--old spybot, sniper, starlight, banisher are effective solutions to gunslinger and should be seen relatively later in the t2 phase compared to the initial low economy t2 phase

#

if recluse had balanced stats, and banisher was pushed back toward the later t2 phase, then gunslinger would likely be more readily produced at its current cost price as it would become an effective way for skilled players with extra apm to turn their apm into value on the frontline, at least for the early t2 phase against a heavily t1 invested enemy

#

for its cost, gunslinger has the potential to force progress on the frontline faster than hound/sheldon can, although maybe mauser will still outclass it on flatter maps

crisp bison
# verbal yacht you can accomplish this while keeping costs that match up with the unit's stats,...

Sure, but costs correlate to unit's stats, and stats are what differentiates between the units in the same phase on a practical plane. You choose a single expensive unit over several less expensive ones, because the latter has a lack of a particular capacity, be it retention, speed, range of firepower. Different unit tier vary primarily in that they provide such more expensive units with broader range of allowed capacity. Even moreso, tiers is what is screening the units between each-other by their unique features - unit cost is never used to facilitate that. This is for example why Marauders are placed into the Gantry even though it is cheaper than many units of the T2 unit tier.

#

Gunslinger is just a unit that is overpriced on behalf of its unique perks, but those perks to not cooperate with the unit stats, making it an almost entirely futile investment apart from any other units produced in the same lab.

verbal yacht
#

sure, I understand you may want to simplify the game as something on your wish list, but currently the game is structured around units within the same tier (and even within the same lab) having different energy and buildcost requirements relative to their metal costs

#

gunslinger is a high value unit, it's quite cheap for the stats it has, it just takes extra micro to use and currently the recluse (in the same lab) is much easier to use and has more impact for its cost than gunslinger does, while being significantly easier to produce on low energy income, so it's just a case of misbalancing where recluse is overtuned and overshines other units in the same lab (hound has also been a very tough sell compared to recluse, which devs seemed to address somewhat in this patch, but recluse still outshines both hound and gunslinger in their niches, gunslinger especially as their speed ranges are more similar and hound may have an argument for being a faster/speedy unit in the lab)

#

in the past, gunslinger has been a super effective tool for forcing progress on the frontline while being untouchable by most units at that phase of the game (t1 tends to fail to close the range gap without suffering heavy losses, while the gunslinger can mitigate t1 level damage from its auto-regen, and gunslinger can be difficult to hit by early t2 skirmishers such as sheldon while also mitigating a certain amount of damage from these due to auto-regen), and also being great at removing commanders which can sometimes be a roadblock for effective t2 gameplay

#

the highest value gunslinger plays from my experience tended to be those who greeded massively behind an initial gunslinger, which used to be able to exert much more pressure than any equivalent cost unit at t2, and suddenly you find yourself at a significant income advantage as responses tend to be expensive and you have a steady stream of value produced from the gunslinger killing units

#

right now you can achieve all that mostly with just recluse as they have a very comfortable range, require little micro, and have substantial apm to multiply their outgoing dps

#

I think something important to note is that certain strategies may be more apm intensive or easier to use, or may have wider niches that apply to more games in general. But a unit that is niche doesn't mean it is bad, nor does a unit need to be good in a mass-produced situation for it to be good in a niche

crisp bison
#

Sure, but its hard for me to remember another unit, that you cannot build in the dozens and have a compound effect upon their use. Gunslinger is really the only unit, that can be effectively applied at that particular case and time, and you don't really encouraged to build more than like 3, or to try and use them in conjunction with another unit from the same lab. The closest one I can imagine would be Commando, which you also can make work that one time, and it still feel a much more potentially impactful play. Maybe I'm waay too biased in this regard because of my limited 1v1 experience, where these units would shine in a completely different light.

verbal yacht
#

nah I think 1v1 is generally much more macro focused so you end up caring much more about securing a higher income and producing a steady stream of units with stats when unmicroed such as tiger, I'd consider my knowledge to be best suited for 8v8 and 1v1 is sort of a different game for sure. That said, I don't see there to be an issue with gunslinger hitting its optimal density in a tight lane to be at most ~2 units, the unit requires a very high amount of apm, and having multiple gunslingers with different range stats can become overwhelming to micro. What I'd care about most is that gunslinger has opportunities where it can be an efficient choice compared to other comparable options at that game state, which was true back then and much less true now that recluse has been buffed. A good thought experiment is to consider the effect of a well microed 7 hounds, vs a well microed gunslinger + 5 hounds. Both will cost a comparable amount of resources, but against the majority of frontlines and army compositions at the phase of the game you'd have this (early t2), the gunslinger + 5 hounds will have strictly more impact on the game (and pay off faster) than the 7 hounds, although it will require a lot more focus and apm.

#

Commando definitely seems to be the cortex equivalent of t2 bot apm-dump for value, although it's a lot more extreme as the effect tends to not be taking a few positive trades on the frontline but more so creating massive (8k+) metal swings while virtually removing the enemy base

#

so that one has to be quite a bit riskier as an option 😛

grizzled atlas
#

gunslinger big selling point is that it's a single unit that can be transported

#

not a bad matchup vs recluse but very high effort

#

gunslinger dies hard to spybot/jammer/sniper tho

#

2nd benefit is when you are winning or can support it a gunslinger applies much more com pressure than other units

#

but if the enemy doesn't feed your gunslinger it's a lot weaker

verbal yacht
#

yeah, I've been harsh toward gunslinger in the above discussion but there may still yet be some very niche use cases. It's also notably still built by consul so it can be used as an extreme measure if you are on t1 and have a consul and want a more efficient unit that the options available to you in the moment, and reinforcements from the team's t2 lab may take too long. We all know that people complained incessantly about hound on consul even though it was arguably not ever a problem in the first place, so it's worth considering gunslinger in that context

grizzled atlas
#

hound on consul not a problem?

scarlet mirage
#

gunslinger is often the optimal unit to build when its commied because you can have a player dedicate 100% attention to it

#

it can also deal with anything t1 practically, while other t2 units need some kind of support

#

I also think there are some ways you can combat banishers with early t2 tech units, it just takes units people are less used to building

#

masusers and quakers should do ok vs it, same for sheldon and ghost

#

sheldon practically hard counter the banisher

empty yew
#

sniper 1-shots bani too

ancient lance
#

So even after the patch grunt still struggle vs pawn

#

The only good opening right now for cortex is going veh and spamming incisor which are still holding their ground .
If you go bot you will struggle due to the pure number of pawn that can rush you down.

empty yew
#

isnt that too soon to say, especially for someone with so much exp?

ancient lance
#

I think it s mainly due to the HP increase of the pawn .
Even if they cost more they have good stat overall

While grunt got a Price increase but a nerf in différent area.
I would say either to increase the damage or the grunt like small buff 5 10% or just revert hp of pawn.

empty yew
#

what do you think about reducing BP needed to make grunts?

ancient lance
#

The bp is already low for a grunt.
Reducing it more might just make the matchup cortex favored again because you will just have more

empty yew
#

yeah i was thinking, since grunt is "do all" unit compared to tick-pawn-centurion trio, it could be more spammable as a way to balance. since armada can tick harass or centurion defend if needed

flint ginkgo
#

Snipers one shoots banisher?

empty yew
#

sniper burst is 2500, banisher life is 2500

ancient lance
#

I guess with how low dps grunt is maybe can work

#

Currently the cor vs arm matchup is like you will need to micro your grunt to win more trade.
So small skirmish grunt with win.
But later on with larger army size 10 15.
Pawn will win unless you fight behind llt.
Of course you will always have a bit more with cortex of grunt but like the dps isnt enough to kill pawn fast enough

#

If we look at the number.
A pawn has 90 dps for 370 hp
A grunt is 74 dps close range for 270 hp
A grunt need 5 second to kill a pawn alone
A pawn need only 3 second
Of course they are speed range etc
Sadly you will have most likely only a 1 second headstart during a grunt vs pawn battle if micro correctly that is

empty yew
#

laser dmg dropoff kinda kills grunt a lot

#

i guess considering grunts do 50% dmg a lot of time (max distance), so they could get a dmg buff

ancient lance
#

1 less hit is i think all need against pawn to make them viable

placid eagle
#

At full range pawns have like 3x the damage of grunts

#

Reverting the pawn HP buff seems fair, they dont need so much HP -_-

#

Although buffing grunt DPS might be cool too

odd swallow
scarlet mirage
#

I think given that snipers are priced reasonably similar to the banisher its not that bad

#

you can quickly build 2-3 if you have some estores

#

and for cor you have sheldon+ghost which on paper should also be reasonable

#

3-4 sheldon will certianly be able to kill a stunned banisher

#

or you can invest in more and never let it get close

#

I get the sheldon ghost combo is a little more pricey but the sheldon should mostly stay alive

#

I would like to see ghost get a bit of a bp buff and emp immunity tho, than it should also become possible to counter tzars and fatboys

tardy basin
subtle jasper
fast obsidian
#

they should give 360 deg to mausers too, reduce the E cost with it and a little movespeed buff just in case

scarlet mirage
#

2 quakers are cheaper than 1 banisher, faster (including turn), have the same range, dont get 1 shot by a banisher and deal higher dps

ancient lance
#

at least the grunt is struggling also vs blitz and incisor so yeah just adjust grunt

scarlet mirage
placid eagle
#

They should do equal or greater damage than pawns at 0 range

crisp bison
crisp bison
#

Laser by-range damage reduction has to be accounted for, which it currently is not.

subtle jasper
crisp bison
subtle jasper
placid eagle
pearl merlin
#

id rather have 1 banisher than 5 quakers

#

i think the banisher would win that engagement too

odd swallow
#

Properly micro'd banishers beat Quakers even prior to buff. Not super hard, like 55:45 or 60:40, but still. They win by attrition, and then win hard if Quakers are forced to retreat

scarlet mirage
#

if 5 spread quakers right click a banisher its just dead lol, it cant even run away

#

there is almost no way it gets a second shot off to fully destroy one of the quakers

odd swallow
#

Half of those 5 shots will miss, lol. 5 Quakers costs most than a Banisher, too, so w/e. I was talking in general for cost, not necessarily 5 Quakers vs 1 Banisher in a death match. In actual field conditions, I'd still rather have the 1 Banisher than 5 Quakers, tho, unless the only direction I need to go is forward

scarlet mirage
#

saying its drastically less mechanically demanding to micro the banisher effectively is fair

odd swallow
#

Also vs Quakers, it's not like the Banisher is standing there in their range the whole time. Enter range on a flank (out of range of most of the Quakers), fire missile, exit range. The Quakers don't get much time to beat down on the banisher

scarlet mirage
#

banisher cannot leave quaker range if they follow with settarget

odd swallow
#

In 1 vs 5 deathmatch, yeah the Quakers would probably win.

In field conditions with spam and shit, I'd rather have the banisher

scarlet mirage
#

its not even debatable I'm pretty sure 2 would win xD

odd swallow
#

The 1 Banisher will very likely outlive the quakers

crisp bison
#

Sure, but Quakers are per-material stronger than Banishers. Also "half of their shots will miss" is irrelevant due to the Banisher size.
Quakers are just made for different purpose, and they can be easily spammed from a newly baked T2 lab, as they're not that much more expensive than T1

#

So if we're talking rolling it into T1 and shredding the enemy front, Quakers are better than the Banishers.

empty yew
#

Those who say 1 bani is better than 5 quakers are crack smokers

crisp bison
#

2 Bani is rough equvalent to 5 Quakers by cost, but the former is mechanically a better counter to the latter, and it depends heavily on the micro and background situation to whichever will win.

ancient lance
#

Banisher and quaker should t have the same range
The fact they have the same range is mindblowing

crisp bison
#

Quakers used to have greater range, but Sheldons cried too much, so...

eternal osprey
crisp bison
# eternal osprey except you frequently have to go a direction besides forwards even when rolling ...

I'd say its an exaggeration. The point behind Quakers is that they're essentially expendable - turning around and running from T1 is just silly. With their higher DPS, greater splash area and EE, they can deal with rolling T1 better than Banishers, because the latter fire twice in a week. If you're silly enough to expose either of these units without cover (such as a few Pounders), then you'd been better off making a Tzar in the first place. Both Bani and Quakers operate well within the cover of any own or allied T1 support and static cover.

#

If I'm somehow forced to back down and retreat, then the allegedly miraculous 133 DPS of Banishers isn't going to impress me much. In that case I'll just rely more on Quakers greater speed and faster turning rate to get out of harms way.

#

Making this particular point on the merit of the hypothetical situation is also misplaced, given that I have already expressed my opinion that the 360deg turret isn't something Banisher should've received.

ancient lance
#

So now that the alpha cup is finish.
Can we get a buff on grunt or something.
Because like bot map are Armada favored by a lot.

#

Like last season was cortex favored due to incisor and grunt but Armada didn t had such a hard time due to their bot lab option(tick and centurion early)
Cortex doesn t have anything except grunt to counter pawn and it s annoying.

Currently its better to just avoid bot map cause playing grunt vs Armada is just a death wish and you will lose

Veh map are still cortex favored but it feel realy balance i didn t feel that Armada had no option to counter incisor now.

harsh egret
#

another thing I quite like about the balance path is the banisher buff many people dislike it for how "op" it is but I find it to be very fair in terms of choosing between arm/cor

scarlet mirage
#

very good for the game

empty yew
#

Agree as well, grunt lacking is an issue since botlab has limited nr of units to deal with armada.

Also agree that banisher is OK. Armada has strong t2 too, and if a unit has to stand out, it should be a badass unit like banisher. At least give banisher more time before potential nerf, its too eary and its a novelty amongst many players

placid eagle
hard stone
placid eagle
#

I also would like to see the t1 counters for these units buffed. Right now their speed is just way to low, I would rsther see their weakness be their range so they can keep up better with light raiders

west birch
#

Changing whole roster to accommodate playing 1v1 on 16x16 maps is very unlikely, tho some adjustment can be made

placid eagle
#

We get pawn meta on 14x14 maps too

placid eagle
#

Teams ppl wouldnt even notice though cause T1 is like 4 minutes long in 8v8s right now 😄

scarlet mirage
#

t1 in 8v8 is the ceremonial phase where both players show each other that they have in fact made at least some units and know how to use them

ancient lance
#

While in 1vs1 its a matter of life and death lol

#

And it can last 12 minute

#

I think i said on another thread you cannot balance the game for team game and small team and 1vs1 at the same time

#

I think the best way would be automatic tweak ? I don t know if this is possible like the game detect if it a small team big team or 1vs1 and the tweak is automatic put in the settings of the game

#

Maybe the preset option can be used?

placid eagle
#

Thats kinda what Im gonna start testing in fight nights cuz we have our own tweak to mess with

ancient lance
#

The only hard part is i think just mindset because unit might bé too différent from the différent gamemode

#

It might also not be noob friendly

placid eagle
eternal osprey
#

I'm personally 100% opposed to different balance between game modes. It does make balance incredibly difficult but having to remember different stats for every game mode would be incredibly annoying in addition to completely going against wysiwyg.

You could however maybe give balance priority to 1v1/very small team for t1 and balance priority to large team for t2/t3.

You would still need to take into account all game modes obviously as all modes do see all units but prioritizing might help.

It's sorta already this way just because t1 gets alot more 1v1 player feedback while t2 gets alot more big team player feedback.

placid eagle
#

The thing is there are players who almost exclusively play 1v1 and it wouldnt be fair to them either if they enjoy a different style of gameplay than whats been tailored for team games

placid eagle
eternal osprey
#

I'm get the issue, I play all game modes and barely touch 8v8 anymore. But I disagree with different balance per game mode in every game I play even if it seems like an easy solution to balance.

placid eagle
#

Its probably better to try a unified aapproach first tho

eternal osprey
#

Speaking of traditional 1v1s we need more duel mode enjoyers fr

gentle wasp
#

Let's not forget how horrible the banishers overkill is compared to starlights.

Tbh there should be a little fire after the missiles land that does a damage over time to help make up for the over kill and help vs swarms which banishers are supposed to be good against but aren't.

Or maybe more AOE.

Banishers are also still not a real counter to T3 in the way that starlights and sharpshooters are

#

I think them having the 360 is fine as it gives you the means to kite with them and for the costs right now I think that's the only thing making them really viable

#

Love the cheaper poison arrows. Still don't get to make them as much as I would want but for the aoe they are useful on land now to as T2 anti swarm which cor veh are so severely lacking

placid eagle
#

But with the current playerbase probably best to keep it unified as much as possible. Like you said we need more 1v1ers 😉

gentle wasp
placid eagle
#

Oh yeah definitely, I was exaggerating. T1 combat tends to stop before 10 minutes though, not 15

#

In 1v1s games end in t1

hard stone
#

Unit speed affects 1v1 much much more than 8v8. Buffing speed of a few units would have a huge effect on 1v1 and very limited effect on 8v8.
Anyway for 1v1 the grunt meta has been replaced with pawn meta so the next small balance tweak seems obvious.

harsh egret
harsh egret
#

because currently balance is very bad it heavily favors the pawns

harsh egret
crisp bison
#

Basically all we need is to give Grunts like 45-48 base damage, because current 37 burst is not adjusted for the 50% reduction by range. Pawns already has greater speed and HP that accommodate their higher cost. Nothing else is necessary. Grunts were a problem when they were able to hard-kit the Pawns, which is no longer the case, and their lack of firepower now shows and makes the matchup between the two impossible, and not at all plausible for the difference in price. It has nothing to do with the game mode.

We need a buff for Hounds, we need a buff for Termites, and we need an EMP immunity for Spybots. Everything else seem a bit more complicated.
Overall, the adjustments to T1 economy were for the better, the removal of Sneaky Pete cloak was justified, the revitalized Banishers and Poison Arrows brought a lot more life to Cor vehicle tree, as well as vision range buff to amphibious vehicles did improve their use case.

I very much anticipate the adjustments to Flagships, Juno rework, and perhaps transferring bedbugs to Cor T1 / adding extra unit to that same lab to diversify Cor bot options.
I also see a clear need for T3-tier air-to-air units, though the discussion on this is still in infancy.

harsh egret
#

ngl ever since the spy bot nerf Ive been having alot of issues with them

harsh egret
tardy basin
#

We are like, just, a lot of gamers, of all OS, on a lot of map played, saying that, SPYBOTS OVERNERF IS BAD !! Like, just, idk, look feedbacks, i am bored about it since a long time, so, well, enjoy bad balance i guess

crisp bison
#

Or are you some kind of hive-mind entity, that plays as 50 separate players at the same time?

tardy basin
#

Have you considered i ask questions to other gamers of the communitie ?

crisp bison
#

Yes, but I also considered that those "other gamers of the communities" can provide their opinion without a proxy

#

Also, just calling something BAD isn't a good form of feedback.

tardy basin
#

For summarize, my last though on spybots fix changes are :
1- Restore EMP immunity
2- EMP damage => 10K (need 1,2 * HP), the idea is fresh tzar/fatboy => stunned with 1 spybot, but fastly need 2 with xp hp increase, 2 for razors
3- ParalyzeTime => 10s (20s for builds)
4- Cloak cost => 25/50
5- Reduce blast radius to keep effectivity on small group of t2 light ball and keep stun on few units for big one
6- Intrusion Countermeasure System with energy operating cost of 50e/s
7- Add stealth-detector capability on mobile AN

verbal yacht
#

basically without spybots it’s been feeling like both bot labs have very few good responses to vehicles lol

grizzled atlas
#

could lower the banisher's speed like someone suggested to make it a less good "roamer"

#

while still making it a decent skirmish and anti-heavy

verbal yacht
#

I’d rather keep it as a roamer so it has clear differentiation from starlight, that way it also fits with the other units in the lab (tiger is very fast). Just push back timings to later in the game where their counters are more available, and re-introduce spybot as a counter

grizzled atlas
#

yeah delaying the timing also works

solid swallow
#

Feedback based on the last Alpha Cup: as i appreciate the participation and the level of play i have to say that this was the most monotone Alpha Cup we ever had in general and even more when just looking at the opening. Almost every game was the copy of the game before. there were no com drops/unit drops, no air opener, no amphibic play, no hovers, no ships (thats was the fault of the map pool and the way the map selection works), few unit transitions inside the tech, few tech transitions in general, no mines (was there a nerf?)... for the majority of games it was one faction and one unit.

So why is that? In my opinion game design decisions that were done in the last couple of years playing a big role in this: variety did got carved away from the game bit by bit for example com lifting enemys com with transporters (years ago), no viable comdrops at start (transporter changes), no viable airstart at all (high cost and slow build time), super op early unit (now it is pawn, before it was grunt)....

i hope game design team has noticed that as well and will maybe reconsider changes of the past and/or make changes that brings variety back to the game.

have a nice day.

#

btw there were several changes in the last balance patch that i very appreciate, like Banisher and Blitz, laser accuracy...

crisp bison
verbal yacht
#

yeah but in current state they do not function as an effective counter to units

crisp bison
#

why? because you need two rather than one?

verbal yacht
#

2 doesn't work

crisp bison
#

wut

visual wolf
#

confirmed spybots useless now, I've seen like 2 of them since the balance patch, and botlabs feel much weaker compared to veh

#

It also sucks you can stun your 2nd spybot with your 1st one, it's just stupid

empty yew
#

This stun interraction is really terrible. Spybots should not be stunnable, its like if banelings in StarCraft were vulnerable to friendly banelings. Noone would use them as this interraction is frustrating

#

I might be in minority but i wouldnt buff spybots much if any, just remove the emp vulnerabiliy, thats giga cringe

hard stone
# solid swallow **Feedback based on the last Alpha Cup**: as i appreciate the participation and ...

I believe it's not only the latest balance changes but a combination of:

  1. Players just being much better at the game. Even small imbalances matter much more than before. Previous BPL was all about grunts.
  2. Map pool. It was awful IMO. All the maps were very similar (people may say it's not true but I disagree). No small closed maps like Ravaged Remake, no GG which plays differently than most maps. No water or semi water. Just big/semi big open maps. Was there a no-wind map? Because I think even that was gone from the pool.
  3. Ever lasting problem with rez bot and res/reclaim mechanic being so overpowered that you need to have a very big preference to ever start vehicles. You just can't attack with vehicles unless you do insane damage. You'll never reclaim with com or cons when enemy has rez bots.
elder pollen
#

new balance patch when

grizzled atlas
#

specifically the medium hovers, and perhaps reducing the bp/e cost of the lab

#

hovers can be expensive but they need to be faster to be able to pressure

#

t1 spam is extremely good defense vs medium hovers. any raiders that leave significant wrecks need to be balanced strong. dropping 500 metal or letting bot player rez your hovers without the lab/metal cost is insane

#

Lack of diversity happens with OP units, most so when the OP unit is a tier 1 core unit

#

It should improve decently after pawn is fixed

west birch
#

Biggest issue for hovers is t1 ships being so strong

#

Hovers can trade reasonably w t1 land, especially around coastlines where they have open retreat path

grizzled atlas
#

which is winning for you because they built a lab without rez bots, and walked farther distance (early econ cost)
not to mention you get all the reclaim

#

I agree t1 ships are OP too, though map features can be made to restrict ship movement
hovers just suck you would rather just make salamander or consul plats if you can

#

plats are the only good hover you can figure out why

placid eagle
harsh egret
#

Idk what more you want us to say

#

The lab cost is just why

placid eagle
#

Ships could be nerfed

#

They are so snowbally and if 90% of players avoid it then clearly its not fun

harsh egret
#

Yeah it requires a whole infrastructure to fix navy, hovers and seaplanes, flagship/hydra

#

But so far the one thing we need to focus on is exactly the pawn/grunt issue again, the termites, the hounds, and some more units there spy bot is just weak af rn aswell

harsh egret
placid eagle
#

I just would rather see some other t1 units get buffs to be better at dealing with pawns, grunts, incisors and blitz

empty yew
#

How would hovers fare if they didnt leave reclaim and instead just explode?

flint ginkgo
#

Don't think it'd make much difference in terms of seeing more use by the average player

#

Hover also lack good anti spam, which makes sense since It could be too op in maps where they can exploit their mobility. Probably too hard to balance them to be "just right"

#

Agreed on grunts, hounds, Spybot needing a boost

tardy basin
verbal yacht
#

I dunno if glitters has experienced same meta but rotato lately is almost exclusively pawn monospam into banisher monospam

#

Occasionally you get someone who doesn’t know the meta and makes a bot t2 lab or something not knowing spybot is useless now, and it’s instant lose

placid eagle
iron cape
#

This was the first alpha cup where you could play both factions competively which I think is awesome. Armada bots are for sure better than grunts on bot maps now. Its funny that people cry so hard about pawn being op for the last 3 weeks when grunts have been dominating for many years. Imo its good refreshing meta change making armada actually a viable faction for top 1v1 gameplay.

placid eagle
#

Also cuz people were so used to grunts that it was non-news when tournaments were 80% grunts vs grunt, but now that the pawn meta is new people just notice more

ancient lance
#

It s just grunt were op agreed but Armada had some response to it

#

Centurion tick.
The worse thing was Blitz getting beat by grunt that was a problem

placid eagle
#

Pawn and grunts are polar opposites in many ways

#

For example, grunts are bad against everything but were OP vs pawn, pawns were OP vs everything but weak to grunts

ancient lance
#

Tick were the best way to get ahead early vs cortex there was lot of thread about it but op for op it was fine

#

Ubivator was one of the best arm player before grunt nerf

#

Also people are use to spamming 1 unit they just auto build pawn it s not like that for armada

#

Armada early was hard but not impossible

#

Cortex currently we are in a it s just impossible unless you have a ai apm level ( it just mean you have to micro every engagement and it s taxing

west birch
#

tourney maps like Onyx, Cirolata, Horus were also really high wind which makes pawns way more affordable

#

but definitely the biggest issue w pawns is that theres often for such a long time no real followup options, since pawns are generally good vs heavier units

ancient lance
#

I mean so is cortex

#

That why we swap veh later on

placid eagle
#

Its also cuz you dont have any options for speed except for pawns and grunts and players like faster gameplay and open maps

#

Maps picked for tourneys just reflect the player's preferences

icy zealot
#

Grants feel good against pawns, the reaction level has increased, but exchanges can happen in +, the only thing is that I haven't played many games for the core, but it seems to me that it would be nice to reduce the construction time of light tanks a little)))

#

anyway this balance patch has had a huge impact on the meta, i have seen a lot more games in such a short period of time that go beyond the t1 stage and that is encouraging

#

in any case, the meta will settle in the next month - 2 months and everything will be clear

iron cape
#

👍

placid eagle
#

Based AF

solid swallow
# hard stone I believe it's not only the latest balance changes but a combination of: 1. Play...

i wrote literally: "game design decisions over the last YEARS".

there were several decision that had lead to the actual status. different fun mechanics were bunked one by one. the last alpha cup just showed the final result (the comglomeratioin of all the changes done in the past). since last alpha cup there was for example a rework of the transport for example. as a result u dont see risky comdrop at the start (its just one example). and there were a different mechanics like this in the past that added variety and posiibilities how to play the game. they got massivly reduced and now in the current state there is just one way street of gaming.

i mentioned also map pool and how the map selection did work in the alpha cup specifically which had further impact. for example the possibility to ban everything that is not in your favor kills variety too (also if there would have been more different maps). cancel the bans completely. set one decider map fix for each round. in combination with a better map pool you would see already see more variety because ppl could call maps specifically what opponent dont like or what their own strength is. like if someone wants to play sea and there is a sea map u could. also imo the best player is not the one u can play on a limited set of map the best player is the one who can play them all on a high level.

i am not sure that high skill leads to monotonie. the reason is that there are no alternatives. there are no possibilities left in the game mechanic in general for surprise or alternatives especially when it comes to the openings but its not only the opening and so on. and yeah its not only the pawn pawns fault. if its not the pawn than its the grunt or incisor.

#

my feel is that in incentives the small units u start early on too much. right now we are in a situation were its comfortable to just stay on t1 cheap units ( atm pawns) for the most of the game. we need to come to a state were u have to continously evolve the units by tech switches t1 to t2, ground to air, bot to vehicle but** especially** within the same factory. from lighter to heavier units. => decreasing the surround bonus from +200% to 100% might help here because thats what overpowers all the small cheap units u build from the start. also flanking could be based on the actual main weapon direction of the attacked unit. like this it would be always visible without any additional graphic were the surround bonus is (or not is) and the attacked unit (the more sluggish one) could choose the direction which it wants to protect itself more and attack the most dangerous units (can see also some skill expression here by manually targeting when your units gets surrounded) . that would be obviously only one little step. other decisions of the past should be also revisited.

i can also see - if the current air transport mechanics stays in place - that maybe the air factory gets massively reduced in cost and build time to maybe bring out a bomber easier or some drohnes or gunships before switch back to ground factory.

solid swallow
solid swallow
# grizzled atlas specifically the medium hovers, and perhaps reducing the bp/e cost of the lab

yeah hovers i agree. i would like to see hovers generally as faster but more sluggish. the should all have similar top end speed regardless if it is a light or heavy hover. would be also kind of realistic and logical. plus it would add a new aspect in unit interaction to the game. It would buff the hover lab in general and give them a higher success rate to punch through to opponents base. @west birch maybe thats worth a consideration

iron cape
# solid swallow its not about pawn op grunts op. its about early units too op and not much alter...

The unit choices are entirely dependent on the map and the game state. Why we see mostly pawn spam or grunt spam in the past is because people like to play medium and big open maps like heartbreak hill, isidis crack, canis river, cirolata, theta crystals, feast of hades, ccr etc. It is objectively the correct gameplay to spam light raider units in order to get map control on such large maps.
But if you play maps like ravaged, great divide, barR etc you will see that the raiding phase ends pretty quick and you start seeing skirmish units instead, just like how 8v8s work mostly.
Transitioning to vehichles is a bit less needed now with pawn meta because blitzes arent that good, but you still wanna transition to medium tanks. Transitioning to air is always really op but it depends entirely on the game state aswell. For example that hearrbreak hill game darth revan transitioned to air when he was getting pushed on all sides already which made his air transition put him even more behind in units which risks losing more expansion.

#

If im reading you right it sounds like you want old com trans back lmao. There was just no fun or no skill in that. Im really glad they patched that so its practically impossible to pull it of anymore with the heavy transport

autumn socket
# icy zealot anyway this balance patch has had a huge impact on the meta, i have seen a lot m...

99% of the alpha cup game I've seen that go to t2 were when both player randomly do no rush 5m build orders that would have just lost to pawn monospam.

autopilot won and was barely able to stop 1 con pawn monospam from wraxel and xfactor. in fact you can tell even from his wins against the 1 con pawn monospam build that he would start every game with a disadvantage and just use his god skill to clutch it.

#

I didnt feel like grunt vs pawn was enjoyable to play either, its like the opposite of last season matchup except that this time the winning matchup (pawn) also has strong anti air, more speed than incisor, and access to tick in the same lab.

#

oh and since its weapon is projectile based, it often overkill mex when you raid with it

iron cape
# autumn socket 99% of the alpha cup game I've seen that go to t2 were when both player randomly...

You still wanna add more cons eventually. Players are so used to being able to start 2 cons( including me :)) from the start when it was grunt meta because of the lack of scouts and grunts being pretty slow. With this new meta it seems like you cannot confidently open 2 cons anymore on medium small sized maps like heartbreak, cirolata, onyx, crystalized. I dont see that as anything bad tbh, just a meta swing

icy zealot
#

the game has enough means against spam, I can provide replays through different discoveries (bot or veh lab) arm or core, on different maps, to show that they are viable.

#

at a high level of play

eternal osprey
#

One thing that really sets fast units apart in BAR vs most other RTS is that you don't need to stop to deal insane amounts of damage. (outside of a single scout or two needing to stop for a mex/wind kill) In most rts you can't just run by buildings and destroy eco without stopping. This isn't new to TA like games but with how low hp most eco structures are compared to even light infantry dps + being explodium + the combination of set target and being able to move while firing it makes taking one bad fight early on incredibly deadly as catching the raid gets incredibly difficult if the raiding units never stop moving.

The recent changes just make it easier to take a bad fight in grunt v pawn but without the tools arm used to use when it was reversed (ticks to keep the pressure up and split/occupy grunts early). As auto said I do think this is pretty map dependent too, maps where veh are a good open option incisors are still pretty good and smaller maps where you go into thug/storm early core can still do pretty well

It's such a tough knifes edge balance to get right, I don't have a proposal for changes that would balance it better but that's imo a big reason why it's such a swingy balance early on.

crisp bison
south pine
#

At least in 8V8 there should be a different method with skill levels displayed. With more players, balancing seems to be trickier because games are coming and going so fast. Yes, the lobbys can be set to minimum skills, chevs, etc... The problem is with people like me. I have many hours logged, and am a decent player. I dont fit with the pros, but probably not a noob either. When you wait for a game, it finally fills up, then after we start people are leaving because they don't feel like its balanced. I'll be honest, I just had this thought going into a game where it seemed unbalanced in the other teams favor by quite a bit. Before that game started, it was balanced where I was on the other team, and the best player on the other team quit after the game was launched, presumably because he didnt like the balancing and didnt want to drop OS. Que the game I thought I was going to lose before coms ever dropped. We stomped them. And it wasnt even close. My point is, the numbers dont mean everything. I also played with a single chev yesterday that had to be starting a new profile, because he was a stud. I figured, maybe if we ditched the number system, People would be less intimidated, trust that the balance is working to some degree, and stop quitting games before commanders drop. I dont have a replacement idea, but I do see it as somewhat of a problem, especially with so many new players coming in.

pearl merlin
#

why 20os players always write walls of useless text that have nothing to do with season 2 balance changes

eternal osprey
crisp bison
#

Or are you suggesting keeping the OS values hidden other than your own, and only keeping the current OS deviation % open?

#

Personally, I feel like people do not make the use of OS/chev limits in lobbies to the extent that they should, to the point that sometimes it feels like the max range between top and bot OS should be hardcoded...

fast yoke
#

Ye after analyzing it more this bug alone actually decided the game. That mex missing and it's radar position. If they just build I would get 5k metal more and would not get out position later in the game to lose another 5mex in back. I would be ahead or equal in metal at any point in the game with those cons working.

grizzled atlas
west birch
brittle hazel
rough linden
#

I think the nerf to spy bot is wrong (should've been different) because of what you just said.

T3 alone shouldn't be 100% safe like that on it's own, without T1-T2 to cover it, otherwise game is just a "who gets t3 first" with little strategy behind just going fast T3 cause is just 100% unstoppable

If you don't need T1 and T2 in there once you get a Titan out, then it's bad game design.

A player should have a relatively cheap way to punish a "my 1 unit on move command beats everything" cheese play

Imo you shouldn't have a Goliath good vs all unit in an RTS without a David that can counter it, if left alone or unprotected at least.

grizzled atlas
#

there are some effective answers in t2

#

the answer to aggression is some more eco + defend

red grove
elder pollen
tardy basin
rough linden
harsh egret
#

just buff grunts again saddessert

#

tired of them being bad

crisp bison
#

yup. Need more base damage to compesate for range penalty. That's probably all it needs.

empty yew
#

I dont think buffing grunts is smart, since pawns are so good, they contest even vehicles to some degree. Nerfing pawns slightly is the way IMO, but also balance needs time to simmer long enough to actually test it well

distant citrus
#

Love the banisher change, in a great spot now.

Wind feels good as well.

Was hesitant to sneaky Pete nerf, but it's ok. A small decrease in cost or upkeep would be good imo

Love turtles

Recluse nerf is fair

Hounds got a nerf in my opinion. The only advantage to hounds was that they could hit faster units more reliably. And their speed, which you can't make much use of because they need to stay closer to slow anti spam.

Was an opponent to the previous grunt vs pawn match up. But the match up is to favorable to pawns. Grunts should slightly beat pawns (in a non oppressive manner) as the arm bot lab also has ticks and centurions.

Spybot got hit a little bit too hard, would like either: a slight buff to stun radius, vision range, emp power, health, a nerf to some vehicles, and/or a cost deduction and/or bp decrease on anti-stealth.

stray oasis
#

spybots are garbatge against bantha now

#

really upsetting :C

grizzled atlas
#

8 max second stun is too little, try 10-12

#

recluse seem fine after nerf

#

sneaky pete still reasonable after nerf (though could make it a bit cheaper)

#

hounds are overshadowed by other units anyways but lack of guass cannon flexibility sucks ass on hounds

stray oasis
#

spybot doesnt even seem able to stun bantha atm

#

or maybe im not hitting perfectly and aoe is too low im not sure it felt like impossiuble to stun the game i played

grizzled atlas
#

what's a bantha

#

i think it's 5000 emp dmg atm

tropic aurora
#

Titan has 70k HP, spybot only does like 5k emp. So you need to hit it with 15+EMP bots to even think about stunning them

stray oasis
grizzled atlas
#

I agree with the having multiple spybots to stun t3 (maybe not that many)

#

more spybots in a group = easier to catch with spam/aoe

solid swallow
# autumn socket I didnt feel like grunt vs pawn was enjoyable to play either, its like the oppos...

indeed it feels very punchy in general (which it was already before but not recognized as it was not a good option against dominating grunt last season). the thing is, now its really the one unit that is doing it all for the first 10 min. u overrun and delete in seconds now defense, bases and well, any type of t1 unit. no other units necessary. if u are lucky u can get pounders in position but thats a edge case.

#

i really think the necessity to transition within the factory is one goal that should be aimed for. in other words it should not be rewarding to build for 10 min straight (and also afterward) the same single cheap unit. the strong surround bonus alone makes it worth to just stay on the cheapest units all the time. as it is a nice to have feature i think a reduction (together with bonus calculation from turret direction instead first shot ) would be benefical for the game

scarlet mirage
#

if plasma bots and tanks could hit the damn things they would be alot more usefull peepoShrug

#

I would love to try how they feel with better projectile speed and a slight splash radius reduction

placid eagle
#

Id personally rather see other t1 units get speed buffs to keep up a bit better with the speedy guys

crisp bison
grizzled atlas
#

i think pawn speed could be nerfed instead, speed creep is real and slow units can't keep up

#

the grunt's 3 speed nerf did ALOT i feel

#

3 speed less means it's easier to intercept and arrives at the front slower

#

pawn should lose to grunt as it's a superior unit in most other cases (well other than accurate lasering scouts)

placid eagle
#

1v1 players would not be happy about speed nerfs.

west birch
#

no its a valid option especially with 1v1s in mind

#

nerfing pawns speed a bit and raising slow bots speed could be even both be done potentially

ancient lance
#

Pawn shouldn t be faster than incisor at least

#

It one of the small Thing that is irritating

#

Also tick should realy get a nerf and i think a attack speed one.
Because it still 1vs1 rascal from time to time cause of the fast attack speed and the fact that rascal attack speed is slow and the turret have trouble locking on it

grizzled atlas
placid eagle
#

Small speed nerf is fine i meant dont make them slow lol

placid eagle
crisp bison
hollow dawn
forest girder
grizzled atlas
#

you would think a 360 surround would give the best results

subtle jasper
crisp bison
#

But yeah, T1 bots need a lot of work, since it seem to be the foundation of 1v1 in general. I'm a vehicle nerd, so I leave it to pros

placid eagle
#

T1 bot game play is so good rn in the right scenario though, its just the popular 1v1 maps are not that scenario XD

austere folioBOT
#

Some scenarios have been hidden intentionally. There's a new bug in the engine that causes most of them to crash so we decided to hide them until it's fixed.

peak imp
#

]\

dry nebula
#

im all for emp buff in general the emp bomber RN is not cost effective for vast of its usecases

tardy basin
#

Something is planned to fix spybots disaster change ? Game quality/balance really decrease mainly because of this

solid swallow
# grizzled atlas pawn should lose to grunt as it's a superior unit in most other cases (well othe...

its though a very thin line. its easy to return to prior state - which wouldnt be ok either. but i think we agree that pawn/grunt interaction should be slightly in favor of grunt (if both microed well) as the pawn is better in everything else. also it seems pawn shout better on air targets which i find a bit weird. i mean laser is "laser precision" and has more range so it should be deal better with air than plasma. the pawn punch power together with paper building is also a bit of a problem.

lunar hollow
#

if you push back the arm player he could still get a centurion and kill all your grunts for free basicly

placid eagle
#

In the 1v1 meta though the only true counter for grunts is pawns + ticks

It does make sense for pawns to have the disadvantage vs grunts, but maybe just small enough that pawns + ticks win with good micro

civic lynx
#

Anywhere to find a tl:dr of this thread? I might have feedback but with 2500 messages I’m 99,9% sure stuff is already mentioned at least once.

empty yew
grizzled atlas
#

I suggest a speed nerf by 40 on shuriken so that they take a a few more seconds to arrive and more importantly they are not trivial to run away from figs.

#

Right now they are barely slower than t1 figs

solid swallow
#

not sure. shurikan got already nerfed a lot or not?

#

i think general ppl can just build some aa bots

#

but often they dont and wonder why shuris op

grizzled atlas
#

its just unneccesary for a cheapish impactful unit that can also brute force stun aa to be fast enough to easily evade figs and be anywhere instnatly

lunar hollow
#

and allso, im seeing shuri usage around 3 minutes now

#

who makes AA first when reaching front

grizzled atlas
#

emp health is proportional to hp to nettles and llt are glass vs emp

stray oasis
#

T3 is op now with spybot nerf, needs rework ASAP

#

No more clutch emps to save yourself anymore

#

Thors also less priority since no there's defacto emp immunity on high hp t3

stray oasis
#

Titan was already op it didn't need to get more op rip

harsh egret
#

So what is it going to be

#

What units will receive buffs and debuffs can we get a summary of what has been discussed?

chilly heath
#

Pawn buildtime 1420 -> 1650 coming soon. No other decisions so far, but that doesn't mean other units won't get changes too.

harsh egret
#

Is there a way to also test the balance you guys change?

chilly heath
#

Shuri has been op for 20 years so probably not a priority right now but might look at it again later.

#

The pawn change will go straight to main game, but we sometimes put other stuff in the "proposed changes" modoption if they need testing.

harsh egret
grizzled atlas
#

shuri just isn't used to full potential most of the time

#

since it can be everywhere offensively and defensively, shutting down llts/defenders

#

target fire stunning aa, switching targets to stun a bunch of small units

#

not throwing them away

harsh egret
#

Ive seen alot of people missuse them but those people with proper airial knowledge know how to use them makes finding a loophole through breaking through enemy units harder I often don't overextend if I know a good air player is in enemy team

grizzled atlas
#

on amphib maps it's powerful and works on navy equally as land

ancient lance
#

Is there a page to see proposed change option

#

As for shuriken i think the unit is difficult to balance
It s a strong unit yes

But if we take it in 8v8 like glitter its an op unit fast and will immobilise and secure lane
On bigger map like bismuth it s still strong but become less effective due to travel time.
In 1vs1 its literaly here to keep cortex in control due to their unit slow speed.

west birch
stray oasis
#

Why no changes in spybot

harsh egret
# stray oasis Why no changes in spybot

I think the recent change was a emergency one since grunts were just not performing good and they still arent

but more over I think rebalance will be done to many units again I really hope hounds get the gauss canon back tbh and spy bot I fully agree before they used to be very very viable now I still use it but theyre not as op as they used to be

harsh egret
#

like would you rather a game ends within 4-5min because of a stupid leak by team or be able to do smth about it lmao

ancient lance
#

I dont want it nerf i just say its role

grizzled atlas
#

generally that punishes fast openers but leaves the unit not too different for richer players who have the time/resources to make 1 additional con turret

chilly heath
#

It punishes fast opener, but it also incentivizes switching to heavier units when you start having more metal than you are spending.

#

Some wanted to add energycost, but it doesn't do much on high wind maps and also incentivizes not switching to heavier units that need less energy per metal.

grizzled atlas
#

ahh I see

tardy basin
#

❓ Why all messages about spybots desastre changes and suggestions to fix it are just ignored !? It is the main balance mistake of season patch almost unanimously raised. Can we have some information from "balance team focused on 1vs1" about it ? ❓

subtle jasper
#

🙋 Not unanimous.

autumn socket
#

imo it was never good design that spybot can *easily *counter heavy t2 and t3 units.

it's just that we're left in balance state where theres

  1. no hard counter to those heavy unit anymore
  2. no reason to go t2 bot lab anymore.

I would argue the spybot is currently in a good place.
everything else isn't and that is the issue

stray oasis
#

Now it's like banthas don't even have to respect they just dominate everything

autumn socket
#

I think it was fine to be a hard counter, it was just too easy

#

we've all seen clips of 1 little spybot stunning 10k metal worth of stuff for 20s, something was wrong

stray oasis
#

Also I feel like it's harder to use with faster self d timer too, cause now you cant select -> move -> self d -> select next spybot - > move -> self d in a good timing cause both 1) no emp immunity means they stun eachother + u can't time the walk u need tobabysit the self d to proc exactly

autumn socket
#

I dont think making them physically harder to use was the key, it was just too effective when it worked

stray oasis
#

Like maybe instead of full stun there was a separate stage for units that lasted the same amount of time but only did like -50% movespeed and firerate etc
But buildings stunned normally

autumn socket
#

how about it do more damage and alot more aoe than it did prenerf but the damage is evenly split between all target hits ?

that would make the spybot easier to use with it's bigger aoe while simultaneously making it less frustrating to play against as you wouldn't necessarily have to hunt the spybots down but you could negate it altogether by having spam eat up the emp for your bigger unit when it does go off

tropic aurora
stray oasis
tropic aurora
#

Works amazing for skuttles, I do it out of habit. but I guess that's not needed anymore

#

Now that attack and self d are the same.

tropic aurora
#

I still liked my idea. Instead of the weird 1.2-1.4x HP to full stun (stun time/40s to be precise) make it something much much bigger. Like 10xhp to full stun.

#

Then you can give them good damage and aoe and stun time. And they will nuke armies of Sheldon for the full 12s but demons and razors will just stagger for some small 1s time or whatever.

stray oasis
chilly heath
tardy basin
#

Nobody want the pre season patch spybot, but there is a world between past op spybots and useless overnerf current one.
1- Restore EMP immunity
2- EMP damage => 10K (need 1,2 * HP), the idea is fresh tzar/fatboy => stunned with 1 spybot, but fastly need 2 with xp hp increase, 2 for razors
3- ParalyzeTime => 10s or 12s (20s for builds)
4- Cloak cost => 25/50
5- Reduce blast radius to keep effectivity on small group of t2 light ball and keep stun on few units for big one
6- Intrusion Countermeasure System with energy operating cost of 50e/s
7- Add stealth-detector capability on mobile AN

chilly heath
#

Even if we removed the emp completely it would still be a useful unit for spying and giving sight to longer range units. Saying it's useless is not true. It is a lot weaker for sure though yes.

fading lagoon
chilly heath
#

Well if it's 1 razor dgun it. Or if you want to use units then gantry + razor is about 12000 metal so for same price you could get like 12 banishers and it can surely kill 1 razor. Admittedly cortex t2 bot lab is lacking in the anti-t3 department, which should be fixed somehow. Mammoths can kill razors cost-effectively, but not catch them in the open.

fading lagoon
#

"which should be fixed somehow" ok fair. until then we need usefull emp bots

cobalt brook
#

so what do people think of the new pawn build time ?

tropic aurora
raven sparrow
lunar hollow
crisp bison
#

Majority of the time I play vehicles, but whenever I'm engaged on the front, I always lament the lack of allied Spybots, and not for stunning anything, but for providing vision without spending absurd resources on scout spam.

lunar hollow
#

I think the idea to make spybot cheaper and more accessible is comepletely flawed, spybot usage should be rare as a counter to an enemy who is way ahead of you as long as he isn't carefull with his unit, balancing spybots as a normal unit choice that you rush early before someone has anti stealth to freekill their sheldons or mausers just sounds like cancer, all the units that get countered by spybots now are allready counteracted by normal gameplay while the heavy units that required spybot are now way more common and harder to counter, it just makes unit rushes more appealing and light units more risky and random / unskilled

wooden helm
#

banishers strong

grizzled atlas
#

i don't play 1v1 but pawns feel punchier and they move faster

#

almost feels like i'd take 2 pawns instead of 3 grunts

cobalt brook
#

spybots only needed a few seconds shaven off the EMP time

#

the fact that you need two spybots to stop a tsar is ridiculous

grizzled atlas
#

i don't wnat spybot to be the counter to everything

#

increase emp time to 10-12 sec, decrease cost of cor spybot, call it a day

#

you can make banisher, sniper, sheldon vs tsar and it's fine

#

starlight can work too

grizzled atlas
#

increase stun dmg, maybe it works better with emp rework

#

6k dmg stun on a tzar turns the weapon off and slows it for 70% fading for 15 seconds, sort of

prime ermine
cobalt brook
prime ermine
#

also 2 spybots not that costly compared to tzar cost, very doable

#

requiring micro is now wrong? I think thats required

cobalt brook
#

2 spybots is too much, people won't invest in that to stop one tzar

prime ermine
#

the only time you need pro micro to spybot is when you have 100 ticks inbound, then it becomes difficult to predict where ticks are going and dodging em, other than that spybot micro is very simple

empty yew
#

I think cooped tzar is an issue, you cant use other units than dgun right now. But reasoning of Hallu also isnt cutting it xD

cobalt brook
#

building 2 Cortex spybots is more costly in energy that the tzar itself

prime ermine
#

uh no?

cobalt brook
#

look it up...

#

22000 for one tzar, 12500 for one Spectre

empty yew
#

What if EMP only disabled guns,not wheels?

prime ermine
empty yew
#

That way longer EMP wouldnt be that gamebreaking

prime ermine
#

hows your math? 😄

cobalt brook
#

you just proved my point

scarlet mirage
#

he said more costly in energy lol

prime ermine
#

oh no the energy 😄

#

while metal is the valuable resource

cobalt brook
#

25000>22000

prime ermine
#

you kill a tzar with less than 400 metal, when tzar cost 1650..

empty yew
#

This comparison is dependant on BP. Getting 12k E isnt a lot but 22 k in the same time is

scarlet mirage
#

well to be precise the 2 spybots dont kill it

#

they stun it for 9 seconds and die

prime ermine
#

no but your team has some units i hope, its basically tzar builder vs you builder comparison

#

if you know its gonna be a tzar battle then make 2 spybots prematurely? even if there is no tzar the spybots are not useless, this is still 'spybot meta'

empty yew
#

I think older spybot would be balanced when emp only disables weapons. U wouldnt lose the unit everytime its empd

scarlet mirage
#

following that logic shuri should also just disable the weapon 🙂

empty yew
#

Ye

scarlet mirage
#

and what happens to stunned turrets?

cobalt brook
empty yew
cobalt brook
#

usually you get T2, you upgrade a few mexes then you go for fusion

scarlet mirage
#

but that makes no sesne xD

empty yew
#

It does, weapons have electronics, targeting. Wheels kinda simpler. I know its not waterproof but hell

#

Even 30-50% movement debuff together with weapons disabled could be good

prime ermine
#

if emp doesnt stop the unit you will lessen the effectiveness of it, then tzar can just retreat and still be alive, and transport cant pick it up either

empty yew
#

Ye but could pan out with prenerf spybot

cobalt brook
#

what people used to do, is use spybot to try and fill the teching gap that they had against the opponent : stop a few heavy T2 unit with spybot, and try to kill the EMPed units with a few cheap bots like fiends. Then in late game, you could use several spybots to stop a T3 rush. Now you can't do either of those things. For some players, that rewards T2 rush and T3 rush and it's good. But others, it removes a skillful and risky counter with spybots.

prime ermine
#

emp is not the end-all counter to Tzar though

empty yew
#

Its reallh bad if emp stopped your gantry push with 1 click and also gives loads of reclaim.

But at the same time its really bad losing spybot micro and flash points potential. Its just cool to watch it and play it

cobalt brook
#

no but it's a good use of spybot. It's an important use case. And the issue is that now people just dismiss spybots. They're deemed as useless, and not built, period.

empty yew
#

Thats why old useful spybot, but emp change, so you maybe donate metal but maybe not, its more skill dependant

empty yew
cobalt brook
prime ermine
#

spybots are not useless in current form, why would you say that. Is 8s stun useless?

empty yew
#

Its not an event anymore

cobalt brook
#

if you need 2 to stun heavy units, or early T3 yeah why bother, it's not worth the effort in micro. That's the conclusion players reached.

#

Maybe someone will show everybody else they're still mega useful for some stuff, but that hasn't happened yet.

prime ermine
#

the difference now from before is you have a smaller window to act on, meaning you have to communicate/coordinate your attacks with the stun, while earlier with 25s stun you could go take a coffee and come back and kill the units stunned

scarlet mirage
#

if they let you stun it with clumped ghosts using 2 will be completely fine

empty yew
#

I think early spybot to win t1 war can still be very good, but its unexplored. But its certainly more lukewarm case

scarlet mirage
#

having to chain them is absurd and the only part of the change that bothers me

cobalt brook
#

if you need 2, the conclusion players reach is "I'm not gonna waste my energy on that, I'd rather build real units"

#

and so spybots are off the battlefield, simple as that

empty yew
#

Problem isnt needing 2. Its needing 2 in precise followup, without any of them failing, and giving opponent time to react. Its not very doable imo

prime ermine
#

whats your suggestion for change then? raise stun length and/or emp dmg? or as voncomet says make spybots immune

cobalt brook
#

same thing with Stilettos, off the battlefield

empty yew
#

Immunity

cobalt brook
prime ermine
#

so a spybot should be able to stun demons

#

previous emp dmg were like 50k

#

nearly stunning a titan

scarlet mirage
#

this is fair only if ics becomes mobile and the signature is targetable

#

or its just another of the million things where "just more more spam bro" is the solution

prime ermine
#

spybot btw is counterable, thing is it requires ICS at frontline, worth 800 metal and drain

scarlet mirage
#

which is degenrate gameplay

scarlet mirage
prime ermine
#

spybots previously were hard counters to titans due to at the enemy shore you have no ICS, spybots previously were just too strong. Flank dmg + spybot = good stun duration on Titan (kinda silly perhaps spybots emp gets flank dmg)

#

that is also how one spybot can stun Tzar now, at the cost of increased coordination/communication, unless you have the units in your own possession for microing

scarlet mirage
#

yeah if I wanna make a demon I should not be forced to spend equal or even more resources on spam to accompany said demon so it can do something effective

#

why even bother with the demon than xD

prime ermine
#

with the spybot nerf demons became viable, still questionable if mass shiva > demon though

#

still mass shiva is now viable too due to single spybot cannot stop em

grizzled atlas
#

also a jammer can suprise or buy a good amount of time

#

especially tzar is weak vs mobile jammer + com

cobalt brook
scarlet mirage
#

also its impossible to make it one shot mammoths and not one shot razors

#

also maybe we could not pretend that early razorbacks grow on trees 💀

cobalt brook
sinful lark
# cobalt brook yeah I keep forgetting how much HP mammoths have...

This is what the "emp reistance" value is for. calculating an "effective health pool"

I was expecting to see EMP resistance values change or implemented for units; while leaving the EMP damage on the spybot relatively similar.
otherwise it's hard to balance something that now does 5k is it ? with 80k starburst missiles using the same EMP resistance values

cobalt brook
#

at one point tbh, I was for mammoths and tzars having super heavy EMP resistance

#

I suggested having EMP resistance linked to weight : heavy units would be more resistant than fast units

#

but i guess it was too complex

topaz glade
#

Makes me wonder if it shouldn't be made easier to emp but harder to get full stun duration

distant citrus
topaz glade
#

Isnt it that emp-rework has gradual effect from how much % stun? I think instead if it kept as full stun when in effect, but that the factor becomes how long the stun would last

lunar hollow
#

Assisting seaplayer with shuri in this case would let the enemy flee into his own base while getting shot at by his opponent

sinful lark
#

The EMP doesnt kill the unit.
If it doesn't stun the movement - even if it only 'slows' it; then faster units lets consider a raider such as marauder
are only "noped" for the duration of the stun - they get to dodge slower firing plasma; potentially withdraw and then engage again.

Taht really reduces the value of stun as it was even more than the duration and EMP value of a spybot now

empty yew
#

Emp stun is gigastrong, and combined with gifted reclaim its very op, hence the nerf

#

Slow could fix it. Its just too powerful to lose all units in enemy territory in 1 click

lunar hollow
#

Emp stun could be longer and stronger if it doesn't stop movement

empty yew
#

Exactly.

lunar hollow
#

Your tzars or banishers weapons would instantly get disabled by spybot but you can still run away and save your unit to attack again 30 seconds later

hard stone
#

The old spybot was just too big aoe and too long stun duration. 4 or even 6s stun with lower aoe with old spybot would be totally fine. The long stun just makes it too binary.

scarlet mirage
#

also if you think about spy as a quick reaction unit to powerfull rushed units it would make sense to reduce bp cost

#

so they can be used well...more reactively xD

verbal yacht
#

It should be the other way around, it should be a very powerful but planned investment not a band-aid for misplaying

#

Feel like fundamentally the concept of emp should be an alternative way of dealing with large otherwise very power dense units that may be difficult to remove with conventional weaponry, and to encourage people to properly support their large units. If emp is weaker than just figuring out a way to kill the enemy in the first place, then it has no role

#

If people don’t feel pressured to support their large units/unit pushes, then game strategy becomes less diverse

grizzled atlas
#

i think emp should be an amplifiying force, making counter units (dgun, anti-heavy) trade better
not making it trivial for anything to kill the heavy unit

#

and yeah emp CAN be a moderately hard counter vs mindless balling

#

one spybot disabling weapon for X seconds and giving a strong fading slow on tzar makes sense, while stunning lighter units makes sense

#

there's other levers that you can pull like improving counter units going up tiers, reducing e cost of cor spybot, etc.

#

I dislike that so much of the game used to revolve around "escort against invisible units with spam"

#

with the shorter ranged units it was not practical to do so when attacking porc. beamers/hlts. kills spam so you can't keep a screen up all the time

west birch
verbal yacht
#

Well support doesn’t mean just spam and spam isn’t necessary for a well supported push. You should get the support options that you think are more important for your specific push

#

my comment is referencing emp in general as well, such as abductor or emp bomber

tardy basin
#

Game quality and diversity drop a lot with the spybot overnerf, maybe it is cool for casual but it decay the game in long term

harsh egret
#

@grizzled atlas what you think about the nukes?

grizzled atlas
#

what nukes

#

I think banisher is a bit overrated. even though it's op skirmisher, it's e cost and BP cost are rather high

#

quakers show up much faster, same range, and when they level enough to tank 1 banisher, can tangle with them

crisp bison
#

After the Quakers got nerfed, people were left basically with nothing other than Tiger balls (at least until Tzar rush meta), so it have rounded down to Sheldons vs Sharpies.
Wasting resources on Banishers or PArrows felt as good as an idea as making a bi-plane out of pure gold.

plucky vessel
grizzled atlas
#

just needs a stealth scout and the lab is gaming

#

right now i think the gameplan is pressure so hard they can't be doing sneaky shit

empty yew
#

Banisher is better on glitters or other open maps

grizzled atlas
#

definitely

harsh egret
cobalt brook
#

Spybot only stops a solo centurion for 5 sec peperip

plucky vessel
#

Yeah even just watching good players use spy bots as best they can, it's blindingly obvious they were overnerfed. Sometimes they don't even stun tigers and tzars. 20 seconds might have been a lot but there's gotta be a middle ground here.

crisp bison
#

Well, the middle ground is probably just that - they should stun Tigers, but not stun Tzars with just one spybot. One way or the other, they should not stun each-other.
Broad-test that first, and then we can actually argue for something beyond if it will be necessary, otherwise we're shooting into the dark.

grizzled atlas
#

increase stun to say 11-12 seconds

#

tzar should be stunned for maybe 5-9 seconds (in the long term it's better for it to be slow+weapon disable like in old emp rework)

#

t3 should not be stunned in 1 shot. unless the emp radius is tiny

crisp bison
#

Ideally the stun duration should be dynamic, meaning that its a function of base stun value + the EMP overflow

grizzled atlas
#

if t3 rush is too strong give faction better anti t3 tool, or nerf shiva raw stat/cost if that's a problem

grizzled atlas
#

dunno the formula for how much overstun it takes to max the stun duration

crisp bison
#

so what are you pointing towards with stun duration? Base value? Or max value?

#

I don't know the principle of stunning myself, so I hesitate to make any meaningful suggestions on that.

grizzled atlas
#

change max stun duration to 11-12 sec

#

tweak emp damage and aoe + edge effectiveness to achieve desired result

small sinew
hollow dawn
tropic aurora
#

But I havnt checked the new antinuke stun override l

tropic aurora
#

I'm working on a rework that makes it more like 10x HP for full stun. Allows more discrimination between 'this had some effect' and 'this froze an army for ages - OPOP'.

grizzled atlas
#

2-5x max hp for full stun seems like it makes more sense yeh

prime ermine
tropic aurora
cobalt brook
empty yew
icy zealot
fast obsidian
#

it's been that long balance team broke the game and still no hotfix
truly amazing to not put broken stuff in testing and just ruin the players experience

571FE2C8-4A7F-410D-9047-F279C79EC4CA.png
empty yew
#

They envision a different balance than you

mighty snow
cobalt brook
blazing onyx
#

Does the balance team even play the game?

#

because from the looks of things you could make the argument they just made a patch that has been very poorly received by the playerbase, and then mic dropped

grizzled atlas
#

hornet on vacation

#

the patch wasn't his

blazing onyx
#

but that's 40% of the balance team that hasn't even played the game since they dropped a patch that has resulted in 1-click banisher monospam and unviable botlabs from both factions due to the uselessness of the spybot

grizzled atlas
#

i think banisher is very strong but i don't think it's super busted. spybot over nerf. pawn op grunt oof is kinda a problem cause it touches all game modes

#

i mean there were good changes too

blazing onyx
#

but really though, it's more like 60% of the balance team if you're being a bit cynical around balancer ptaq's 2 games since the patch was made

#

so i kinda have the impression that the balance team doesn't actually play the game

grizzled atlas
#

they dont' play regularly, yeah

blazing onyx
#

then why don't they listen to community feedback?

grizzled atlas
#

that's what this thread is for.

#

but yeah, I imagine it's taking time because stuff like the spybot it's easy to see it's an overnerf but deciding what to do with it (tinkering with emp) is not trivial
same with pawn
It probably takes time for them to discuss and reach consensus on balance changes

blazing onyx
#

but the very first post in this thread nearly 2 months ago gave helpful suggestions

grizzled atlas
#

but as you said, there's not that much point in reaching a consensus if most of you guys don't play
i get that design/balance is a different skill than playing the game

blazing onyx
#

there's not much point in this thread existing if feedback is ignored and the balancers don't play really?

grizzled atlas
#

it is listened to, just not right away

#

especially on stuff that has consensus among community

blazing onyx
#

for sure design and balance are different skills than playing the game, but having those skills (whether they actually have those skills or not is a different question) is still no excuse for dropping a significant patch and then peacing out

grizzled atlas
#

but I think they should try and recruit 1-3 more active people or consult more with active players

#

basically to see how the unit is playing out in real matches
although you have to use some reasoning, because 8v8 matches are so high variance it's way to easy to say "well X wasn't why they won the game" "lane difference"

blazing onyx
#

does the community get to vote on who is part of the balance team or is that just BAR side?

grizzled atlas
#

it's internal team

blazing onyx
#

gotcha, thanks

grizzled atlas
#

all this balance consulting/study takes man hours for sure

#

it's a lot easier if the person happens to play the game actively

chilly heath
#

It's also partly just that everyone is a volunteer. Balance changes sound very simple but you do need to implement, test, discuss with everyone, implement changes and test again, get official vote to merge, write changelog, announcements etc. It's not always fun to do all that instead of playing the game or doing something else.

grizzled atlas
#

yeh exactly. after you do it for 6 months+, it literally becomes work

blazing onyx
#

does the team need more volunteers?

#

I cannot fathom the amount of work involved, i'm sure its huge

#

(i'm not volunteering myself, i'm not good enough)

chilly heath
#

We will get there. All things considered the balance isn't completely broken or anything at the moment. It can wait a bit.

blazing onyx
#

How are you so sure about that? most of the games I watched yesterday in the "op rotato lobby" were purely decided by which team decided to build banisher the quickest

grizzled atlas
#

a) they could look for someone who is qualified, and knows how to manage their bias, and who they trust with particpating
b) we could try and put concise feedback and change suggestions
c) Make well reasoned videos that show the unit interactions and a conclusion

grizzled atlas
#

on glitters and strait since there's less roaming potential i find quaker rushing and trans to the front is competitive or even better

#

banisher is like about as strong as starlight now in it's role (bit overtuned)

#

but it's also in a lab with significant weaknesses, like expensive units, no cloak scouting or builder utility

chilly heath
grizzled atlas
#

but i can see tzar into banisher being very hard to deal with

#

hm I wonder if sneaky pete can hide behind t2 walls vs banisher shots

fast obsidian
chilly heath
#

We will probably nerf banisher a bit. I think it's fine if it's a little bit op since some unit always needs to be the best one, but I would like it to be a bit easier to punish/counter and maybe it could also arrive a bit later as a late t2 unit rather than the first thing you build when you get the lab up.

fast obsidian
#

Yea there was a reason why it had those limitations, you guys discovering why
but most good players already knew why, we don't need to play with a t2 whistlers at 6 mins into every games.
Grip up

#

Spybots were already the only reliable counter to old banisher, Raghna was spamming banisher trying to make it work few months ago and that's the only thing that was able to counter it well enough to stop it.
That change alone is enough, 360 turret is just beyond ridiculous bad design.

elder pollen
#

i just hope this will not take year to fix. year of bamishers would just force community to make tweak def removing them from the game :bar:

fast obsidian
#

nah don't need remove them, just revert to old values

tardy basin
#

We need tweaks for desastre balance changes on SPYBOTS/BANISHER/PAWNS, the game is in bad state since 2 month without any improvement, high OS gamers just retire from game rn, it is bad. You asked for feedback and just ignore them for 2 MONTHS !! 🌶️ If this thread is just to take notes and ignore them, say it so i don't waste my time trying to brainstorm with a lot of gamers, test a lot and gather all info in a constructive spybots suggestion

fast obsidian
#

There is no way you can balance such a complex game, on 1v1 to 8v8 to FFA without playing the video game, only rebel is active but nomo spammer won't be capable of understanding balance good enough to make changes

mighty snow
#

we really need to think of balance as a team game balance and then 1v1 maybe a tweakunits for balance changes, they are genuinely 2 different games, and breaking grunts just so 1v1 doesnt only have grunts to ruin 8v8 grunts is lame. Banishers need slower rockets or E to fire cos starlight cant even turn or move and costs e to fire all it has is little bit more range. Without spybots the t2 botlab is COMPLETELY unviable now cos you cant counter hard vehs and its just boring

#

is there any way for any of us to become a balance contributor? 👀

fast obsidian
mighty snow
empty yew
#

Sniper is still good in botlab, also recluse, and fatboy

#

Depends heavily on map

#

But i agree that units which can stop early power spike (communism boosted) are needed. Spybot was one of them, sniper is also such a unit

#

Maybe sonething else is needed too, this also somewhat "solves" the OP commie gameplay

mighty snow
#

sniper lower range than banisher and for good reason

#

i think spybots were a good thing i cant lie

empty yew
#

But in reality they can kill banishers too

#

Ofc vision is key and t1 bots for support,but snipers do help a lot. They arent insta useless vs bani

mighty snow
fast obsidian
#

you can slow banisher down with fatboy and few sniper behind it, that will defend your lane for some time but it's a losing battle so it's pointless

empty yew
#

In glitters we play snipers vs banishers and its often a stalemate

fast obsidian
#

banisher will be on another lane in 5 secs and win

mighty snow
#

cos in glitters ppl dont have a brain

fast obsidian
#

rushing snipers was never good and will never be good

#

unless you play brainless glitters

empty yew
#

On glitt its unironically good

#

I mean, its a map. A lot enjoy it because it gives t2 and t3 option to nonOP players too

mighty snow
#

cos map ends up being a choke in mid and ppl forget they can go to another lane

empty yew
#

Such a high skill diff needs a map where some lower skill players can reach t2

#

But lets forget about sniper for a moment. Units that can stop next tier push are important bcause of map sizes. Spybot was such a unit, sneakypete too, but maybe more are needed now

#

Shuri is such a unit too to an extent

mighty snow
#

or we just bring back spybot. It can seem dumb but if you just make spam or countermeasure you are fine.

#

maybe a 700 metal mobile countermeasure thingy for vehs is ideal

fast obsidian
#

they don't have the team to improve gameplay like that, will take them many months
meanwhile game is unplyable while our volunteer team balance members are analyzing data on their free time

mighty snow
#

fwoar DATA

empty yew
#

Recruit raikoh and others into GDT on next meeting

#

Good players that often play need to be a part of it for sure

mighty snow
#

FR

ancient lance
#

meanwhile 1vs1 monospam tiger

#

i mean it's 1vs1 i guess all unit can't be use but cor unit are so weird
sheldon banisher meh in 1vs1
completly overbroken in teamgame

same as brute and tiger and even then people underestimate tiger that unit is so strong for it's cost

empty yew
#

in 8v8 its all about chokes and porc next to porc, this makes for completely different balance in usefulness

#

hunting down tigers is a huge pain, but when they ram into porc and units, its different

grizzled atlas
#

Yeah in 8v8 generally lanes are supported with porc so artillery is way better and tigers are situational

#

Specifically for SI the banisher changes were a net positive. Since it brought the weak t2 veh lab into meta and brought a lot of new t2 unit interactions

#

The downside of banisher is that it shuts down a lot of early t2 units like hounds or w/e

#

Gunslinger

#

Anyways i think faction/lab viability is very important to watch when making emergency balance changes

plucky vessel
#

They don't need to be over nerfed back into non existence for the rest of us

grizzled atlas
#

When a unit becomes op/up such that it makes a lab/faction unviable and is left there for >1 month, that really hurts the playerbase

#

Some of the best changes are those that made labs viable even if they had some op rough edges

#

Like arm sea buffs

plucky vessel
#

Yeah and the spy bot nerfs did indeed feel like it left both T2 bot labs in kind of a sorry state. lilyFrown

grizzled atlas
#

The most problematic change imo is the pawn/grunt. A few people say 1v1 grunt is still good but from watching a 1v1 and overall in team games I don't want to touch the t1 cor bot lab.

#

Being slower and lacking scouting, gets out muscled by pawn and outrun, you have to micro well to even trade even with pawns

#

Worse in nearly all other situations

plucky vessel
#

HAHAHA GRUNTS ARE SO BAD NOW SPRIIING IT'S LIKE IF YOU HAVE ONE GRUNT VS ONE PAWN YOU MIGHT AS WELL SELFD THE GRUNT THAT'S HOW MUCH DAMAGE IT'LL DO

grizzled atlas
#

A lab being perceived as not having a reason to use it is so bad for game health.

#

Since it reduces the match diversity by a lot

#

T3 rush? Learn to use heavy mines for mars and sniper trans or stilleto / emp I guess

plucky vessel
#

You have to be a god of micro to trade evenly with grunts vs pawns. It used to be if you were a god of micro the grunts would never lose but now it's like you're balancing around those players being able to always do that and, well, surprise surprise, even those players decided they can get more shit done by making pawns walk forward and not bothering with the micro dance. lilyFrown

#

It feels like I can't even dive on vulnerable units with grunts anymore. Their range nerf might have been necessary, but it should have come with a damage buff to offset what they'd be losing to the fact that they're laser units.

#

Or, there's another option: make the pawn feel like the grunt does too! lilyHappy2 just make both those units feel like hot garbage that can't even rush down rocket bots anymore. I'm sure that'll get those 1v1 players to make t2 every once in a while. lilyBlush

grizzled atlas
#

I mean the pawn feels like it dumpsters maces

#

I get blitz and pawn beating small number of medium tank with dodging micro

#

But for fast af pawn to dumpster slowish mace raises an eyebrow

plucky vessel
#

Yeah I think the pawn does need a nerf one way or the other. They feel like the only unit you ever need to build out of the arm bot lab now. A lot of people don't do anything else and it works fine which is kinda silly. lilyFrown

grizzled atlas
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I think it's the mantra: speed is the most giga op stat in the game

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+3 speed made pawns overtuned, -3 speed hurt grunt a ton

fast obsidian
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they didn't take into effect that units move closer than their actually range before attack due to momentum of the unit
grunt still get into range of pawns unless you super hard micro them, whicth you can't do when you have 6 fronts

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just like ticks suicide to mex if you don't micro them

verbal yacht
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bamisheur

plucky vessel
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Personally? I don't see Banisher mono spam taking over games like these other guys do. They feel strong, sure do, but they don't really work as a mono spam comp. You need something to deal with the units they soften up or they leave a lot of things at 100 hp and get killed. I do 1:1 with tigers. Without Banishers being strong, though, it feels like Core vehs gets out muscled in every category by arm vehs. Tigers and salamanders are incredibly mid compared to jags and Bulls, but that's okay because they have Banishers to soften things up for them! Right? That's how it's been sold to me.

If Banishers aren't good enough, Arm has something in their vehicle lab that just wins the T2 phase. Starlight having that extra range is a big deal. You get a wall of those things and even Banishers can't touch them. Always was, hasn't changed. Cor's other vehicles are made to be mediocre because you're meant to use them with Banishers. They have to be good.

The problem with them now is though, if you amass them early, they completely annihilate units that otherwise populate early t2, and lab boosting is making that even easier. We can do something about that. It might not require a total rollback of the E cost, but might be slightly too low now. That's all. Very slight changes are usually all you need. If they're slower to amass, everyone's fine.

It might not actually even be busted though. I'm sure the game Dev team knows, if there is a unit that takes over the game, op players will fire it up with nitrous. It's hard to know if something is actually broken sometimes, because... Marauders? Every game someone's rushing arm t3 for them. Nothing can catch them! Nerf nerf! They didn't get nerfed. People moved on. Janus? They snipe coms and you need too much micro to counter them. Nerf nerf! Didn't get nerfed, we moved on. Spy bots? They shut down t3 for free! Nerf nerf! They got nerfed ... Wait, we needed those!

west birch
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Only issue with strong banisher is that you kinda get aa for free in that army

plucky vessel
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...nah you're kinda right. It's not always enough, but the fact that they can hit big planes for free means gunships don't do anything against Banishers. That's true. lilyFrown

fast obsidian
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surely the huge majority of people saying it's op that play a lot at highest level are more wrong that someone not playing the video game, that's how it works, it is known

plucky vessel
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Surely that's exactly what I said and nothing else. LilyHappy4

verbal yacht
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banisher tiger is an insanely mobile composition and simply needs to be relatively weaker or else it will always take over games if on equal footing to slower compositions that have clearly defined weaknesses

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for example even though starlight is super good, having very limited mobility makes it very weak to flanking and generally has more counterplay, since you can pull back a bit, let the starlights overextend, and then take an engagement with a decisive push

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Even if your assault on the starlights isn’t cost effective, they can’t retreat, and the wrecks are left in a reasonable place

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For the same reason starlight can even die to t1 units if an effective counter push is made, since starlight is a skirmisher that can’t easily retreat

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banisher on the other hand is the best roaming skirmisher in the game while having very little weaknesses (kites with a high impulse weapon to slow assaults, relatively speedy and tanky for a skirmisher, can double as anti air to prevent gunship plays, good aoe to do bonus value vs dense fronts, can massively overshoot in skirmishes)

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Basically, if you try and pull back to force the banishers to fight closer to your base where you might hope for a defensive advantage, it doesn’t matter as they can just retreat and kite when you do decide to commit

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cortex t2 vehicle has always been a very mobile ball of stats that you can’t easily stop unless you’re simply ahead

ancient lance
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you can't realy nerf cor in teamgame without hurting it's limited viability in 1vs1

verbal yacht
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I thought cor was the only faction played before this pawn spam meta

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incisors are still better anyway, if pawn gets small hp nerf it’ll probably be relatively even arm vs core, probably core favored on larger maps as usual

ancient lance
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i mean it's just because incisor are more expensive than blitz and they have better Burst dps

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that why in large number they kinda win

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it's the strengh of cor large number of them will destroy a lot

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due to their stats

hollow dawn
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it's the range, range op

plucky vessel
# verbal yacht cortex t2 vehicle has always been a very mobile ball of stats that you can’t eas...

Counterpoint: that's all Cor vehs has and will ever have. Arm gets a vehicle engineer and a stealth tank. Is the stealth tank a cheesy meme in higher level play? Yeah! But it's better than the tremor and does see play as more than a meme sometimes.

And a thing that isn't discussed here is, you don't have to over extend with Starlights. You can just park them next to porc to threaten a push while you make t3 and there's really not much Cor Vehs can do about that. Cor vehs certainly can't push into that with Tiger Banisher even under ideal conditions. If you miscalculate how many units they had, all you did was feed them your whole army.

To reach a ball of tigers and banishers, you have to make sure none of them die before getting to critical mass, and let's not forget, Banishers friendly fire like crazy and this is often exploited. Spam is good against Banishers and tigers, since tigers are kind of ass at killing tiny spam units. The comp has stats but takes a lot of attrition damage from its own units. You don't auto win against them with spam like with Starlights, but that attrition adds up and can wear them down. Pair that with the lack of a vehicle engineer and you have to go into bot lab for rezbots to keep the comp rolling, which is harder to maintain with spam rolling at you all the time, getting the rezbots killed in the crossfire. The spam dies, yes, but frequently so do the Banishers.

That's a thing Starlights never have to worry about, and for anti spam, they have jags, which are the best anti spam unit in the game and are also anti air. If they have those, only an absurd amount of t1 is enough. Starlights don't splash each other until they start dying, they are only slightly less durable than Banishers, and once they're winning, they're winning. If you nerf Banishers just trying to put them where they were before, then all you do is flip it back to advantage Armada again. Like always.

verbal yacht
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if starlights stop overextending then they stopped pushing lol

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banisher can push and pressure much deeper often ending games that starlight can’t

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I think you’re underselling tigers anyway. Tiger is the best unit in the t2 phase until you can get t3 shivas since they simply have more stats than anything else

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aka tigers do beat starlights especially if the starlights are mispositioned

fast obsidian
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make starlight 360 turret, you will see it wining against banisher probably
just do it at this point the changes are already a joke, just full send it

verbal yacht
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banishers can just kite back

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and it’s not like the lab doesn’t have any other units or options, tzar and quaker do just fine in early t2 stage and tzar might even be considered the best possible option to rush, only mauser is close in impact

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the lab certainly doesn’t rely on banisher in early t2 phase to deal with t1 or t2 early assault, but having it breaks apart most of the early t2 balance as banisher beats every other strategy you can afford early

plucky vessel
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That's why I mean it's fine to increase the energy cost again. But I don't think a full rollback is necessary, that's an over reaction. You don't need to nerf it back into non existence, just back into not being a unit you can spam in early t2.

verbal yacht
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I think the old 270 turret was fine because you can still kite enemies (it isn’t hard to slightly turn the unit so it gets a shot off then keep traveling straight) but more importantly it makes mirror matches playable

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Starlight mirror matches feel fair and understandable, as neither is hard kiting the other and you brawl and both sides lose units

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with banisher 360 turret, mirror matches are some of the most aids gameplay I’ve seen in the game, where 1 side randomly gets 1 shot by the other with no ability to shoot back

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the first person to move forward even an inch dies is bad game design

plucky vessel
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At the very least I think it should keep its vision increase. It's a big change that makes it much easier to use them even if your radar truck dies. They struggle to hit things with only radar because their missiles turn upwards instead of hitting the ground for whatever reason.

verbal yacht
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yeah, if devs feel that unsupported banishers were too weak, it’s fine to keep that change imo, the missile tracking change should be fine too to go with

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Unit will still be good with old cost and 270 turret, especially now that people are more familiar with the unit and have actually tried playing with it

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To a certain extent people in BAR prefer things they’re comfortable with, so even if banisher was balanced in the past there were some mental barriers that prevented people from really committing to it

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same thing happened with other units like shiva, believe it or not for almost a whole year people were crying that shiva was bad and needed a buff

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banisher with season 1 stats will still be largely viable, for mostly the same reasons as why it’s dominating right now

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mobile and tanky skirmisher that hard counters most other t2 options and can influence the game across the whole map quickly

plucky vessel
verbal yacht
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Shiva went on a weird curve, when I started bar the top players were abusing it and it was generally accepted as a very good strategy or even overpowered

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then at some point the massive wintergaming push came and some of the older shiva players went inactive, and public perception suddenly shifted to “shiva is bad/unplayable” for some reason

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and now we’re back to people understanding that shiva has some of the best stats in the game

plucky vessel
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It got a new model. :3c

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It looks 20% cooler now. It's op. JuniperGrin

hollow dawn
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i looked through changelog and it seems like it got op buff in june 2023

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[Shiva] Weapon reloadtime reduced by 33% (3s->2s), damage per shot reduced 33% (900->600), turret turnrate increased. Script and hitbox adjusted to reduce friendly fire.

verbal yacht
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oh yeah that was actually the nerf that made everyone stop using it lol

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less burst is unfortunate when it helps you burst down key targets faster, but fundamentally the stats are all still there so the unit was still really good

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usually higher burst damage is worth paying extra for as it makes it significantly easier to secure kills

forest girder
# blazing onyx

Hornet is no longer on the balance as of last month
He has been inactive for over 6
He has been replaced by the head of the mentor goup zeteo

west birch
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Shiva stats were changed so it became just quite a different unit than before

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I guess that original big change was before the change modulo cited, which was some finetuning for an earlier patch