#Rework the Juggernaut

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

sharp shard
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With all the massive balance changes going about, I think this unit needs to get looked at as well. I know there have been threads about this in the past, but there long dead and not in this channel. So this is an attempt at reviving the discussion.

Currently it is just too weak for the metal it costs. 3 thors can kill it super fast and cost less metal, 2 titans can kill it and cost less metal, Behemoth can kill 2 and costs way less metal. The fact it's a walking nuke is also a double edged sword because you can't support it with units nearly as easily.

Another problem is that it's so easy to dgun and you lose 30k metal for free...

So here are some changes I can think of that would help make it better. Obviously not all of them should apply at once, they're merely ideas as to what could be done in theory

  • Switch M/E cost with Behemoth

  • Give it a shorter range tacnuke-like weapon, like the thor has it's emp weapon

  • Overall buff to dps - mainly stronger shotgun. I remember someone mentioning giving it a shiva-like plasma shell shotgun.

  • HP buff, 150k is ridiculous for 30k metal. That's 5HP/metal, while the Behe has. ~18HP/metal for comparison.

  • Give it a short range radar to make dgunning much harder

  • Remove it's death nuke, but keep it for self-d

pastel pelican
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Kinda shitcomment but it would be funny to have cloaked jugg but with like 30s cool down after disabling. You think that they com walk but suddenly it's a jug.

On a serious note, radar would be great. It would be an op utility option and I much prefer such changes than just switching base stats around

honest flare
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would it help if the nuke went off only when selfd?

pastel pelican
sharp shard
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If the nuke doesn't go off on death, it means you can have units around to support the jugg and help prevent the dgun

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and you still need like 3 explosions to kill a com

lyric ridge
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  • Switch M/E cost with Behemoth - I don't think jugg buff has to be accompanied with a Behemoth nerf

  • tacnuke on jugg - sure I don't see why not but I don't think this would begin to fix the unit's current sorry shape

  • hp buff - yeah absolutely this is meant to be the ultimate core unit how the heck is it so flimsy??

  • Give it a short range radar to make dgunning much harder - sounds good

Some other ideas: you could add a secondary 'sweeping' heatray like the big legion turret has, this is the game's most expensive unit and it really should be cooler as a result. It could then engage many T1/t2 units at the same time and fulfill what a 27k metal unit should be.

It could also be rebalanced to be a stronger version of the Titan and move it to 14.5k metal cost or something, Core has a huge gap in its t3 gantry between demons and juggs whilst arm gets TWO really good units in this range (thor and titan)

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if no one wants to do any high effort changes though at the very least it should have its metal cost and build power cost both lowering by 20% or something and it would still sorta suck but at least not as bad,

opal vine
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i also believe jugg is more or less a waste of metal. Personally I really like the tac-nuke idea (range debatable), as the unit I think deserves a different treatment from general design philosophy (same as Thor), being the iconic big t3 unit.

Close-range radar (such as in airlabs) is also great IMO

lyric ridge
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it's insane that for cheaper cost you get 3 mobile emp missile platforms that have more combined dps, more combined hp, can be in 3 places at once, present 3 dgun targets instead of 1, they're faster and their damage even chains

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I don't think I have ever once got really good value from the inbuilt nuke and yet people always cite this as a reason why the unit has to be so crap.

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literally just get rid of it (the nuke), if I am close enough for the nuke to kill enemy eco then I can just kill it with the jugg laser and supporting units anyways, half the time it kills more of your units than enemy anyway.

vocal token
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depend on what the juggernaut should be

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do we want a super weapon so having like 29 k worth of FIREPOWER and hp

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or do we want to have something that help a behemoth

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what could be done is just having more weapon platform like you make it because you want to be able to crush a frontline asap

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while keeping him a bit squishy

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while keeping the behemoth as a tank

raw trench
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Nuke death or not, you're still gonna support it with units. I agree that the Behemoth should still be the slowest unit with max HP, while still being cheaper. Jug HP is fine, but it should somehow be stronger. Its rocket is pathetic, and it should be something else IMO. It can't be EMP, that's more Armada's thing. But it should be at least better than Negotiator rockets. Midway between tac nukes and Nego rockets. Or a fragmentation missile like Messenger boats.

pastel pelican
raw trench
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behemoth already has a small antispam laser, I feel that just like Titans, Jugs should stay weak to spam. You're supposed to support it with anti spam units

pastel pelican
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Other angle would be to embrace the nuke and lower the selfd timer so it's easier to pull off. Maybe also some QoL change which would show detonation range when selfd so you could easier assess when it's worth to detonate. I mean, selfd in the edge of range will still kill a lot, and the second jugg can go deeper 😄

lyric ridge
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I think many of you misunderstand quite how poor a value proposition the jugg is currently, slightly upgrading the missile is not gonna fix it honestly

raw trench
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Pros always refuse to update it, claiming the walking nuke ability justifies the cost

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It's why it's not stronger atm

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But yes it would be more fun to have small explosion, better weapons same cost. And potentially a T3 skuttle added PandaDerp

sharp shard
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Actually, how about replacing the current missile with a Liche nuke...

pastel pelican
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but yeah, it could use some more damage or aoe or both

scenic pelican
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tac launcher on jug

thorny folio
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right now commanders receive less damage from jugg death then most units, so the damage reduction could be nerfed for cons

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but yeah tac nuke launcher on back is pretty cool

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personally i think the whole walking nuke on self d thing isnt that great of a feature cause you have the behemoth wich has a very similar role and both units end up as rivals for the same function

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making jugg more of a siege / skirmish role could ve benefitial to make it worth the cost

lyric ridge
thorny folio
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giving the jugg a long range siege option with the tac nuke while keeping the massive driendly fire on death could make it a high risk high reward unit but making it more reliable overall and lowering the friendly fire allso works

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kindof like how starlights are high risk high reward with their death explosion that can chain

scenic pelican
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maybe better to improve the ceiling/micro potential/tactical utility

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its fine to have commander be hard counter to jug (learn to juno and bring radar xD)

thorny folio
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yeah its just one of the easist fixes that could be done

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and you can still rez the com after if youre opponent is asleep and sending juggs without micro

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right now you can d gun 3 juggs that are coming all at ones if you stay at max d gun range

unborn grove
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Jug already the best superlategame unit. Titans have a timing window in which they are better, but eventually jugs win if it goes long enough.

sharp shard
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Why would I build juggs when I can build way cheaper behes

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behes that won't chain and kill my supporting units

unborn grove
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Because jugs can poke behes to death

lyric ridge
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?

lyric ridge
scenic pelican
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if metal is no longer a limiting factor then i guess mass jug xD

sharp shard
thorny folio
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and behemoths are just better to send into the enemy base to wreck it

raw trench
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yeah, that is the issue : Jugs SHOULD be the best late game unit but they're not

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you're better off spending your ressources on mass tick spam and more efficient T3 stuff

unborn grove
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If behes or titans try to dive the jugs, they are at huge dgun risk, and will be taking big damage from spam/flank-damage. And you can have a mixed comp with minimal behemoths to deter diving, with mass jugs as the main antagonizing force.

Mass Behemoths is a huge friendly fire risk to themselves, and titans lose by attrition vs jugs, unless the titans can somehow force a fight from an advantages position where the jugs can't escape and repair.

opal vine
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But this scenario is so lategame its hard to validate its usefulness. Usually investing in jugg is worse than investing in almost anything else same value, thats why a kind of a buff is wise. But if you consider unlimited metal with several juggs on the field, than you also have to considers mass emp launchers and liches and whatnot and this cant really be calculated at once

unborn grove
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Nah, it doesn't even need to be super duper late game for jugs to start getting value. They force enemy to switch away from cheaper t3, since razors/kargs/shivas will take heavy attrition losses

sharp shard
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When I see a jugg the first thing I do is set up jammers, some pulsars, get a com, and start making afus

thorny folio
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i HAVE seen this very scenario, wall of juggs stands infront of wall of titans on glacial Gap, TITANS WIN

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titans go in cause juggs yo explode they kill each other

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and you dont even need to fight them just cause a hole in them and walk through, they wont catch you, this late in the game it doesnt really matter where the enemies units are just walk past them

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if the juggs decide to do the same just throw stout hordes at them and laugh while their animation gets stuck on trying to aim at their feet

raw trench
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And if the jugs team doesn't have air superiority they lose to gunships too

unborn grove
thorny folio
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what stops the titans from going in? if you use tac nukes just make pulsars, way more effective at stopping the titans

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as soon as the titans are in range they have 1.5 times the DPS and they get more flanking cause theyre quicker and more numerous

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theres no reason why in this late of a game you wouldnt just go in, pulsars are the only real thing stopping t3 units

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titans have the right amount of movement speed to stay within their own range where they have more DPS but outside of the self D/death explosion

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and if you focus fire one of the juggs you cant pull it away quick enough to prevent the death explosion from hitting the other juggs

unborn grove
# thorny folio what stops the titans from going in? if you use tac nukes just make pulsars, way...

The rest of your army and defenses, lol. You kinda already answered your own question.

Jugs can kite the Titans a bit, and if Titans push in too much they are at risk of getting d-gunned, jumped by spam to trigger flank damage, eat damage from karg/Shiva support, shot up by porc, etc. And if there is a behemoth with the Jugs, the Titans prolly ain't pushing anything.

The tac nukes are for dealing with enemy Pulsars/Vanguards/Catapults.

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In worst case scenario of a jug getting focused too hard to escape, just push that jug at the Titans

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Also consider if the Titans try to dive the jugs, they are prolly gonna leave some juicy scraps to reclaim

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And if the Jug player has some armada allies, EMP can potentially stall the titan dive

slim barn
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The biggest issue with jug is it’s a massive liability and needs tons of support with junos radar aa and anti spam. Give it more utility to make it more independent. Built in aa and better anti spam would allow you to play more aggressive with it

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The 29k m is half the cost of a jugg before you factor in the support units required for it

unborn grove
slim barn
ornate oracle
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The death explosion is often what makes me not want to make Juggs. They're too much of a liability if used defensively and if you send them forward, it's often alone, because any support units will all get blown up with them when one of them dies. I don't like having a big bomb standing in my army composition or near my frontline where it will blow a hole for the enemy to then waltz through.

Also the Pulsar is vastly more useful than the Bulwark at dealing with T3 because of the huge range difference. And the Pulsar has all of its DPS into that full range shot, versus the mixed ranges from the Bulwark guns, so the one with the longest range isn't even its full damage. It may be good at dealing with spam, but it often feels lacking compared to your other options and very lacking in comparison to the Pulsar. I think Pulsar may have more radar as well, which is sometimes one of the reasons to build a Bulwark over a Karg or something, just to have a more reliable radar somewhere that can't be juno'ed. And the Thor's EMP rocket outranges the Bulwark, so can get a free kill on it, versus the Pulsar almost always getting a good hit on T3 units before they can beat it. Technically the Bulwark does more DPS for a little less cost, but since the range is so much smaller, the effective window on that damage is much smaller, often meaning the Pulsar will tend to do more damage and in many cases way more.

subtle dune
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"Remove it's death nuke, but keep it for self-d"
Damn, it's the most cool part about this unit! Double edge sword!

scenic pelican
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usually double edge swords are more effecient units

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not some 29k metal monster

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juggernaut doesn't offer unique utility that other units don't offer already

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less effecient than titan, can be mostly ignored (relative to its cost) until it reaches your base

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and it's very slow so it's not good for defense or punching to their base quickly

ornate oracle
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The main place I see Juggernauts is spamming them from an island on Isthmus, where they can assault from sea and not be a big liability to anything other than themselves and that's usually when they're pumping out at a high rate to overwhelm the enemy and that extra wide front helps the assault versus the main chokepoint on land. If you have to go through the chokepoint, Behemoths are usually the better choice as they're super tanky, do tons of damage, and aren't a popper liability to the rest of the assaulting army.

scenic pelican
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If you give it a tac launcher that's decision making what to target, how much to lead. And it changes the battlefield, like thor emp. Within a radius around the jug, suddenly the enemy has some problems as the tac launcher gives tactical superiority

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the enemy can of course, retreat or go around it

ornate oracle
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Poking around with Juggernauts is sketchy too, because if they take too much damage, pulling them back gets very dangerous, so you usually have to just send them forward to die, preventing you from actually using them as a good poke unit in many cases. You have to keep an eye on them because if they pop in a bad place you're boned. Titans aren't a risk in the same way.

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(and Titans move faster)

scenic pelican
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46 vs 34 is insane difference, outruns a com

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titan is more effecient at face to face combat, better vs small fry, doesn't blow up in your face

subtle dune
scenic pelican
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effecient is a strong word when you could make an absolutely massive air force for the price of 2 jugs

subtle dune
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I wasn't talking about economical efficienty...

scenic pelican
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what other kind of effeciency is there?

subtle dune
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Do boom.

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But I'm gonna leave this topic. I don't really want to be dragged into.

sharp shard
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The jugg nuke is very weak for its cost. It can't even kill full HP coms

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being able to dgun 3 jugs with one com is absurd

unborn grove
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Part of that is the com gaining XP/HP from killing the jug

thorny folio
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and 1 commander can stand at the shore d gun them unpunished

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unless you make hover spam

candid dirge
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frankly i dont even think it should have a shotfun, its kinda a weird weapon to have when no other weapon does in cortex

thorny folio
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shotguns are very cortex themed

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there should be more cortex shotgun units very brutish

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like a centurion counterpart in the t1 botlab that has a shotgun

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and if the jugg had quicker animations for his arms the shotguns would be pretty good

candid dirge
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cortex doesnt have shotgun units in cortex anywhere i can remember besides the jugg

thorny folio
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allso it doesnt get more brute force strenght then a shotgun

candid dirge
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might as well give it to everyone

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legion has no emp at all

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cortex has shurikens weirdly

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i mean

thorny folio
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you cant claim machineguns and shotguns for legion, those just arent nicheweapon only one civilisation would use

candid dirge
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arms the highest tech of everyone, cortex mid, legion last

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thats how i t was explained to me anyway

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hence conventional weapons

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being a legion thing

raw trench
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The irony is that epic units offer better stuff than jugs

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Epic dragon is insane if there is a unit cap and you can't have 300 fighters

ocean sable
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I have insane idea to add reclaim ability for him like in printer. You kill and reclaim in mid combat. It would payback a bit while stealing wrecks. Right now he has combat role of titan ( with emp immune ) with bigger price tag.

thorny folio
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Well it's not really comparable to titan, but more to the behemoth, you only really bring out the jugg when you need to destroy a reinforced position that for some reason didn't pulsar spam and allso for some reason cannot be killed by lolcannon

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In the sea the jugg can be pretty good vs navy until somebody knows that you can just capture the jugg with mass decoy com