#Suggestion: Armada T3 Metal sink option?

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

dusk glacier
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Was discuss in Legion channel, once Legions come out Armada need another T3 unit preferably a metal sink unit to align with Cortex and Legion.

Current numbers in T3 Roster for Gantry.

Armada - 6

| Marauder | Razorback | Vanguard | Thor | Titan | Lunkhead |

Cortex - 7

| Catapult | Karaganeth | Shiva | Juggernaut | Behemoth | Cataphract | Demon |

Legion - 8

| Mobile LRPC* | Keres | Javelin | Sol Invictus | Drone Carrier* | Hovertank* | Praetorian | Daedalus |
*Not Yet Implemented still need models.

T3_gantry_with_Cost.png
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Legion T3 Gantry

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Note that Behemoth, Catapult, Karaganeth and Hovertank are placeholders*

opal heart
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I’ve given this just a short amount of thought in my time playing bar so a pinch of salt with this: Super Pulsar mech, slow as behemoth. Small cone on pulsar laser (have to micro it to face heavy damage dealer toward target). LLT range lighting gun to deal with tick/grunt/pawn similar to behemoth lasers. Same roll, different look, similar metal to behemoth. I don’t have any artistic skill to come up with an actual look to this idea. (Even as I type this I see this isn’t the best suggestion).

dusk glacier
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It is a nice suggestion. But in my opinion I think the Titan is pinnacle Armada tech which makes it hard to surpass. I would like to see something that costs more metal than a Titan but isn't as powerful which makes it a contradiction. There was a floating idea of a T3 AA unit in a support role. But how would one make an expensive dedicated AA unit with a perk that is not overpowering the Titan.

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@plain quest suggested a Sniper bot with Tachyon Laser weapon that could also hit air. If I was to spin his idea. I would go for a T3 variant of the Starlight (Mobile Tachyon Tank). I have also suggested a mobile plasma battery fortress. Think Land Epoch (Armada Flagship) but has the range of a Gauntlet.

plain quest
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me

dusk glacier
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Just posting your T3 Sniper bot idea.

vague mesa
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In my very unsystematic calculations, armada would need 2 more and cortex 1 more.

Cortex is lacking a tank! Lacking something between the mass of demon and behe, and lacking something for longer range. - Therefore cortex needs a mobile catalyst tank/T3 negotiator with a cortex characteristic green laser defense at around 10K metal.

Armada is lacking a medium range bot, something between the mass of a razor and maurader - Therefore they should get a bot with pitbull like gauss gun +aoe, slower but stronger than a razor, (with cloaking while stationary?), like a T3 gunslinger/welder at around 6K metal.

Armada is also lacking something between marauder and razor, and lacking T3 with multiweapon/functions - They should get a lighter support bot like a T3 pelican/jag with a janus rocket pod, an emg (pawn) gun and good AA support at around 2.5K metal.

pale field
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i think the game needs a T3 support unit with inbuild Radar, Jammer, AA, and anti nuke

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i guess it could be part of some big land t3 unit for armada

dusk glacier
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The Legion Drone Carrier will be a Support/Utility unit. So they technically only have 7 frontline units.

silent summit
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Well, if you compare roles, Cortex and Armada just mix their roles a bit differently, causing Cortex to have one extra unit.

Marauder - Amphib raider VS Shiva - Amphib Assault
Razor - pure land antispam/dmg VS Demon - pure land antispam/dmg
Vanguard - all-terrain & siege VS Karg - All-terrain & antispam VS Catapult - pure land siege
Thor - big land tank assault VS Behemoth - big land bot assault
Titan - big amphib assault unit VS Juggernaut - big amphib assault unit

When it comes to metal sinks, it would make more sense to compare build power requirements, how quickly you can dump metal into them to get out big units.

Per 100 build power:

Juggernaut is 5.2m+111e per sec
Titan is 4.9m+104e per sec
Behemoth is 3.2m+81e per sec
Thor is 3.6m+96e per sec

So they're not actually that different and Titans aren't a big liability like Juggernauts and better speed and damage, so in some ways they're a better metal sink than Juggs.

Actually one of the fastest ways as Cortex to spend your metal is Dragons: 6.1m/86e per sec. Hornet on the Armada side is 5.2m/92e per sec. But those options are shredded by fighters, so also the fastest way to lose your metal investment if the enemy has fighters or lots of aa.

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Vanguard having all-terrain on its siege unit can actually enhance its siege ability, depending on the map and position you're sieging. The all-terrain aspect for the Karg tends to cut against its anti-spam role (paying all-terrain tax, unlike Razor), but is good for invading up the side of hills. That helps a lot on some maps/hills and not at all on others, since it gains no range advantage and can't attack down from the high ground in the way a vanguard can.

The Thor has the EMP which makes it effective at sieging defenses and good speed for picking its fight better, whereas the Behemoth just has raw HP & damage, while being super slow. In a direct fight, Behemoth wins, but it's a much bigger dgun target and takes much longer to project its power due to its slow speed.

Cortex has no real raider unit like the Marauder, which is just super fast and has some AA to help as well.

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Demon was originally going to fulfill that role, but lost its amphibiousness and its AA is weak for its cost, so its cheap to EMP it, making it not able to fulfill that role well. Plus the high cost puts it further away, which may then be past the window of opportunity for such types of attacks. That moved it to serve a role more similar to Razor, although the Razor I think deals with air better, so isn't stunned as easily by shurikens.

ruby lantern
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The issue with this is if we do end up adding more t3 there wont be a reason to ask for a t2 con from other faction it removes teamwork ability

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Just saying do we really need to balance both factions that much?

stuck orchid
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I do not believe there needs to be exact balance but the number of tools esp. in the higher tiers should be similar I reckon. I feel like there are 2 gaps in Arm T3 - one is obvious - a very heavy unit as Titan is small compared to Behe / Jug. Another is a missing good T3 early brawler - Mar is week in direct fight and Raz is too expensive

native python
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Armada is the best T3 lab in the game and it's not really even close. Just putting it out there to keep it mind for balance considerations.

prime steeple
native python
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A proper answer requires several paragraphs, but generally their T3 units play really well into the meta of strong long range skirmishers and cheap, fast, and reliable sources of DPS being available at all stages of the T3 phase of the game. Thors are overtuned, Razorbacks are overtuned, Marauders are giga powerful (but not in an overtuned way), and even the vanguard is extremely effective for the cost. Titans can be considered meh but even the mounted tachyon brings so much value to the unit for the cost it has.

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Not to mention their units are subject to little to no team killing potential

pale field
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cortex only has catapult wich is really strong

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catapult can kill all the t2 anti t3 units, wich are allso mostly armada units

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without catapult cortex t3 would loose to armada t2

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catapult isnt strong against t3 tho

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so cortex t3 is mostly just a: "you are winning and were able to make t3 so now you are winning even more" type of deal

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if you are up against an equal opponent cortex t3 is quite bad

shrewd bane
# native python A proper answer requires several paragraphs, but generally their T3 units play r...

Gotta say I kinda disagree with this.

Shiva spam is by far the most used t3 thing in higher level rotato and their hp for metal ratio is unmatched, they're just that good. Behes are the only viable thing in super late game. Early demon can be giga powerful but I agree it's among the least usable units due to its cost for hp. Cata is insanely good, just requires hold fire and set target micro, + scout plane spam.
Jugg just sucks, it's only value is vs new players as psychological damage.

As for armada t3 lab.
Maras are good early but are completely useless after their initial window (unless you're talking a map like Isthmus).
Razors are good in the early to mid t3 stage but die easily vs a t2 army (they can barely kill a single mammoth for example, and starlights/sharps shred them to pieces).
Vanguard is a very very strong unit, even more so on maps with high cliffs.
Thor being overtuned is a weird take tbh, it can't skirmish, it has abysmal turn rate, and it's extremely easy to get it dgunned, + it's damage ain't that good to call it overtuned. The emp is nice but only vs mid t3 units and under.
Titan is actually the powerhouse, when used properly (meaning as a skirmish unit) it can get insane value for its cost. There's a reason why you rarely see thors in high level atg but you see titans all the time. It's also reasonably fast and super maneuverable.

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All in all it's very map dependent on which lab is better. On atg I would pick arm t3 over cor t3 anytime apart from super late game, but on rotato I would go for cor t3 first in most cases.

vague mesa
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As with most units. Cortex more efficient, armada better at doing their special thing.

cerulean girder
# shrewd bane Gotta say I kinda disagree with this. Shiva spam is by far the most used t3 thi...

Shiva spam you can negate with ticks and some micro. Shiva has no air protection, unlike razors and marauders. Behemoths are not viable coz they're too slow and a cloaked com will get rid of it. With both Thors and Behemoths you need some form of spam, and Armada tick spam is superior to grunt spam. Like Zephyr said, it's long texts of explanations why Arm T3 is better, but it's years of BAR games and tournaments that showed why it's superior.

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As a T3 metal sink for Armada that doesn't make it even more superior to other factions, you have the Ratte already, in epic units. Just a super slow anti-T2/T3-swarm tank. Its cannon will punish any heavy metal raid, like tzars, thors, or shivas. If you can bring it to enemy base, it's way more effective at killing a base than a behemoth because of the shell spread.

shrewd bane
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there's a reason why you see way more shivas than early arm t3 units in rotato

shrewd bane
cerulean girder
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how is that irrelevant we're talking of adding a new unit to the main T3 roster, read the original post again : "Armada need another T3 unit"

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I'm just saying it's a possibility to use the ratte

shrewd bane
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My bad, I understood it that you were saying arm t3 doesn't need a metal sink because it has ratte in extra units 😅

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Anyways, just adding ratte as is just isn't feasible, the unit is stupid strong for its cost. It would definitely need to be toned down.

wide sail
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is it possible to make it so that each faction is around a specific feature. like core goes for hp, arm for alpha dmg and dps. Leg could go for range or sustained firepower with lower dps per shot. Alternativly, core - hp arm - pulsars - leg heat rays or chainguns, with subfactions focusing on weapon variants. plasma being default and available to all.

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that way each t3 faction also gets a specific "big gun/metal sink" (core using some combo)

cerulean girder
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we've gone a bit past that, there is no real "lore" or "flavor" for each of the factions. It used to be (Total Annihilation times) that Arm felt fast, slick and experimental, Core felt old, rusty, reliable brute weapons, bit like US vs USSR. But with so many changes since, it's not exactly the case any more. The "story" of TA is that Arm is the rebels who don't want to upload their human consciousness into machines while Core wants to force it for everyone. So historically Arm were always the good guys. Legion feels like the alien invader in all of this.

wide sail
cerulean girder
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bit too simplistic I don't think devs would go for it

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plus the tachyon thing is a bit strange, I always thought it would have been better if Core didn't get any tachyon laser, but they have a weak one on Bullwark

dusk glacier
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Off the Beyond All Reason website, Armada is Tactical Finesse, Cortex is Brute Force.

While my view of Legion is going down the path of Area Denial and Control

Also to note that the devs are staying away from the Total Annihilation lore and unit names due to Copyright.

native python
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Should be noted further that the little taglines for cortex and armada are quite wrong as well, imo armada is the "generalist" faction, cortex is the "technical" faction and legion is the "disruptive" faction

urban jetty
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I would say that arm is the combined forces faction and core is one trick ponys faction with very low combo potential

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If you want a t3 unit idea: land supporter, like 6 repair turrets and aa flak

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Moveable shields would also be fun and in line with arm feel, but engine upgrade would be necessary

dusk glacier
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Mobile Shields Generator are a Ano from GDT

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Also any T3 cons/Rez/build power units.

silent summit
# pale field catapult isnt strong against t3 tho

I disagree with that. A group of Catapults can shred many t3 units and can kite Titans to death if they have the room to do so, getting free kills on them. Vanguards outrange them, but they're faster than Vanguards at least and plasma shields can stop Vanguard shots, but not Catapult shots. Lots of Catapults can also be a good counter for Behemoths. They're squishy though, so also vulnerable to getting picked off or may die trying to take out Pulsars as their range is just in range of a Pulsar basically for a good volley. And if any t3 units are sitting on front they can do a lot of damage to them and then kite back to do a bit more before faster units overrun them (Razor, Thor).

vague mesa
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Nothing more beautiful in the game than 5-8 catapults taking down a behe.

cerulean girder
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a big no (i'm guessing) is also physical damage, like punching and slicing. Only raptors do that.

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catapults are harder to use than vanguards due to the friendly fire and spread, but they're much more fun. Vanguards don't seem menacing, they're just throwing slow tennis balls. The sound effect is only good once you zoom in like crazy, like a lot of units.

pale field