New balance patch candidate: T1 eco structures, laser accuracy, light unit balancing

[strange edge]

My comment is not directed at the relative frequency of changes it’s about scope

[dry solar]

They are related to the general point/both sides of the argument

[strange edge]

I would rather see more, smaller changes

Let me have one of these smaller changes every month and have more meaningful conversations about that one change in isolation

The change as it is I would argue is not testable

Huge cortex eco change and fundamental change to its core unit that requires major rebalancing

[dry solar]

Well, what if you want to adjust the game in a way that considering each set of changes in isolation is somewhat worthless? What if you want to balance things around the new 'default' instead of taking time getting there when earlier micro adjustments were just wastes of time if you consider the larger context/idea?

[strange edge]

Are any of these micro adjustments?

[dry solar]

Entertain the idea. It applies.

Doing these eco and t1 changes here, separately, would be a bit wonky imo. Considering they both directly impact the same area. Cost of units is eco change fwiw. Laser accuracy most affects T1 stuff.

[strange edge]

I see two things competing with the balance of the grunt, both with a very unclear best first option. Trying to solve both problems at the same time feels precarious

I’m not saying each of these changes are bad or that I want slower changes

[dry solar]

From another direction, the eco changes directed at 8v8 faction meta vs T1 stuff is more impactful in 1v1, don't matter if they're both put into the same balance adjustment. They can both be tested at the same time.

Oh yeah I get what you're saying. It's about less drastic changes all at once.

[strange edge]

Emp is a big change not getting discussed here cause we’re talking about wind and lasers

[dry solar]

No, it was discussed here a lot.

[strange edge]

Sorry by here I mean “right now”

“We’re trying to grok this hard problem and we haven’t even talked about X yet”

Not that there isn’t meaningful discussion to be had past present or future

FWIW im on board with most of these changes in spirit

However, The numbers that seem to come out of previous discussion seem wild to me without reading alllll of the history. I’ve done my own testing with grunts vs other t1 in earlier iterations of the patch

[dry solar]

I'll be honest I do see your point but I just don't think it's an issue. I feel pretty up to date on all the different topics discussed here, and the way they affect each other. I think the air changes are tiny, the eco building changes are quite uncontroversial. The only 'big' block of changes are the T1 changes which should all go together anyways, with the laser accuracy rework that also affects shuri. edit: forgot EMP changes for a second. They mostly affect a different area/phase of the game than the other changes, again, so piling the changes on doesn't hurt here.

[quick fulcrum]

Im also not a fan of a huge batch of changes at once and multiple stacking buffs or nerfs, but i prefer this to no change. Especially in alpha. And i believe part of reason why its like that is the fact that game is developed by fans basically

I see these changes as a new baseline to tweak stuff

Far from final balancing

[tired hound]

I would like to propose reducing the self D timer on LLTs to 4 seconds

[strange edge]

I mean at the risk of opening myself up to flaming, coming from glitters, I have great hope that normalizing wind brings some diversity to tech spots on wind heavy maps

I similarly would be interested to see a constructor cost normalization to open up even more flexibility (with appropriate balancing to movement speed, bp of course)

[strong spear]

balance changes have been asked to be put into more singular but larger amount of prs

[scenic breach]

I'm convinced League of Losers makes regular balance changes just because, not necessarily for balance at all but just to make changes and upset the status quo.

Haven't played with it yet, but grunt reduced range means it also crit masses worse in late game, being much less effective in numbers since not as many will be shooting at any given time. It affects more than just early-game skirmishing.

[static olive]

They're the same thing... a status quo (aka meta) develops around the current balance of a game.

[tropic gust]

im seeing a lot of players trying armada front now playing centurion + rocketbot, there has not been a buff to the arm botlab in ages yet all of a sudden players just rediscoverered that it works without needing a balance change to try it

[hybrid jasper]

there was a buff/bugfix to centurion targeting not that long ago

[void cove]

July 2024 iirc: https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/pull/3423 improved the units animation script to allow it to fire while turning, took people a long while to start trying it out, as is often the case with the more subtle balance changes

[tropic gust]

feels like ages ago

[solemn tendon]

Centurion and Gunslingers where recently demonstrated to be quite strong in more cases than was generally accepted awhile ago, its just filtering through the player base now.

Its taken like 3-4 months

[upper elk]

Did the slinger get a buff too?

I have indeed been seeing it in a lot of supreme games but I thought it was just meta evolving

[solemn tendon]

No, people were just sleeping on them as part of a unit comp, rather then the typical solo yolo mega micro application

[upper elk]

Personally ive only seen the latter working, have not actually seen slinger as part of a serious unit comp

[solemn tendon]

Welder + gunslinger can be pushed out fast early and provides a strong ranged component and doesn't requie a bunch of energy to be effective.

you can field up like 6-8 welders with 2-3 slingers and just walk through a lot of people, especially in lower tier matches. So its gaining alot of popularity, probably only going to be more common with spider nerfs.

[upper elk]

thats a lot of metal for a first-t2-unit play

[solemn tendon]

It doesn't have to be super early, if it shows up as a unit.

I don't think its as appliciable in high tier, but low tier where they fial the Tzar micro, and the gunslinger micro often... its just easier

[upper elk]

Unfortunately a lot of normal t2 units effectively shutdown the slinger, so ive seen it being viable only in the t1-t2 transition phase (in high os lobbies)

I assume we focus on high tier lobbies because in low os lobbies most anything will work lol

And yes slinger micro is one of the most fun micro elements ive experienced in the game

[solemn tendon]

That's not the case here, this came form high tier. Its just more vsisibly effective when you see it play out in mid tier.

Im gunna blame IWC for it since it was his video lol

A few gunslingers backing up welders is no joke though.

[tropic gust]

slinger is like a t2 bot pounder

[outer fulcrum]

Nah

[solemn tendon]

You have 3 options for pre-fusion T2 units as Arm bots... you can pump some hounds which is kinda bad. You can open Spiders, which is my personal choice as webbers + recluse is amazing at killing and then eating all the T1 army metal. Last you can go welders + slingers, Which is like a giant wall for all remaining T1 armies that is either nearly impossible to push through or just a steam roller coming at them.

The idea isn't "Imma rush this out", its just these are the core of your comps that are available on reaching a natural T2, meaning no bought T2 con, and making your own T2 lab in lane etc.

[hybrid jasper]

I think fatboy is a more realistic 3rd option than hounds

pre fusion hounds just kinnda...bad

[solemn tendon]

Fatboy to me would fall into a "im gunna rush this one unit" type play

Maybe Im wrong though, I just dont ever find myself personaly going for fat boys as an in the lane type go to

[strange edge]

Fat boy is a more op unit against t1 than gunslinger

I’d rather have one fat boy with welders than the same cost of gunslinger with welder

[hybrid jasper]

I think slinger has one advantage over all the other t2 rush units

its the best at com sniping by far

[solemn tendon]

If I was going to choose between 1 slinger or 1 fat boy... Im taking the fat boy lol

[strange edge]

Fattest of all men

[solemn tendon]

but the idea isnt its a 1 unit wonder rush

Its that its part of an actual comp you might field early in t2 as an army

The issue I have with fatboy is that its a lot easier to flex over and and find an opening to take out someones single fat boy as they are killing your team mate than it is to do that to a few gunslingers. I'd say its going to come down to the map and situation but the fact remains... the reason you are seeing it more and more is because its effective.

[fickle marsh]

It makes no sense that incisors dont get a range nerf with grunts. I am going to be really disappointed if the new balance changes make incisors even more OP, they are really not fun to play with or against

This has the potential to genuinely ruin my enjoyment of the game tbh

[lost magnet]

it's fine all the 1v1 pros probably testing that patch and it will be released without major issues 🙂

[severe wedge]

make blitz (balanced unit) instead 🙂

[solemn tendon]

Blitzes are gunna be even worse lol.... Incisors got a vision range buff

[fickle marsh]

Blitz did too

Blitz arent just bad vs incisors though theyre just... bad

[solemn tendon]

which would have mattered if icisors didnt get one to match it lol

[fickle marsh]

Ehh Im not even worried about the vision buff

[solemn tendon]

I see "blitz are the worst unit in te game" arguments weekly

[strange edge]

That “probably” is doing a lot of work in that sentence

[fickle marsh]

Its the fact that grunts got a range nerf and incisors didnt
So now grunts just cant beat incisors period

[fickle marsh]

Missing my whole point its an alpha game idgaf if the changes come with issues to figure out

I just want more incisor nerf and more blitz buffs that dont maintain blitz as a worse incisor and incisors as the most unfun unit which youre forced to play

[solemn tendon]

If they had given them a real LoS diff... we would have had it lol

[fickle marsh]

Theres many options to do it

But the point is BPL s5 was literally just incisor build after incisor build winning and now my fear is these changes are just leaning into that. I guess we'll see how significant the buildcost increase is

[tropic gust]

welders on their owown can get killed by grunts with pincer manouver, gunslinger knocks them back working like a pounder in this composition

[lost magnet]

how many 25 years old apha games have you seen in ur life?

[fickle marsh]

None, have you seen any?

BAR aint 25 years old 😩

[solemn tendon]

Star Citizen and Ashes are going for the title

[fickle marsh]

How old is star citizen now?

[solemn tendon]

2012

[fickle marsh]

God damn

How old is BAR actually? Like BAR BAR not BA

[lost magnet]

oh yea coz changing name means anything

[severe wedge]

are you counting BAR before it was Beyond All Reason?

[severe wedge]

check the date 👀 https://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=22234

[fickle marsh]

Sure BAR came from BA but if I went and tried BA I dont think it would be the same and in fact BA still exists as its own game

[fickle marsh]

I meant not counting BA 😩

Almost 15 years though god damn

[dry solar]

I neglected bringing it up but yeah, been thinking this lowkey. Incisor range WAS gonna be nerfed, but it got pulled at some point.

I'd have pretty much the same argument from Grunt v Pawn (units in primary roles fighting each other should not have differences that make micro op vs the other). I was just coping w/ "oh their turn rate is actually bad unlike bots, maybe they don't need a range nerf vs Blitz but something else..."

[solemn tendon]

There's really not much of a reason to make a blitz... pawns are nearly as fast now and will get flanking bonuses and dramatically more DPS than the same cost of a blitz. A range/vision advantage would at least make blitz viable if you had room to kite out or just out manuver the incisors.

[fickle marsh]

Yeah, it was probably thought out just seems weird. Im gonna be just very disappointed if incisors are even more meta

[severe wedge]

neb #1 incisor hater fr

[pulsar lion]

Spy bots will be borderline useless, decrease their emp time slightly instead of the current patch pls

[lost magnet]

well better learn how to be a 1 click gamer 🙂

[astral wigeon]

give blitz more speed....

[astral wigeon]

it is probably and that as a non niche unit. i atm switch to stouts right now after just a few blitzes immediatly. but as arm veh u have so bad cards against any kind of spam unit until u reach t2 which often u dont. i recently play because of blitz now more often just cortex like everyone else in 1v1

[elfin dagger]

Or keep the change...but reduce their cost too.

[astral wigeon]

what emp damaged reduced from 56000 to 4500???? like not even 10%? come on....

35/20s to 8s

i wonder why not simply delete spybot now. u cant even stun a antinuke anymore and launch a nuke. sad. another nice mechanic removed....

[astral wigeon]

fatboy and tzar is easier. u dont even have to see the com. radar wobble is enough

[lost magnet]

it's effectively deleted

[ornate crystal]

i think there's a PR to keep the AN interaction but dunno if it will be merged.

But yeah it's just such a huge nerf to botlabs

and saying "it's good for vision" isn't really an argument as no one uses spybot for vision, ticks or radar or spam is way better. Maybe if you want to watch your opponent but who even does that.

[dense vine]

I wonder what was the process of the GDT for the spybot, the nerf look a little too much

[ornate crystal]

IIRC they think invisible unit gaming is bad for the game

I agree with that to an extent, but there are other ways of dealing with the issue. This effectively removes the spybot from the game and makes botlabs even weaker.

I just hope we don't lose cloaked com dguns

[dry solar]

To 5000 but yeah

[strong spear]

Gdt was not involved here

That’s the Balance teams work

[lost magnet]

if you can only play monospam unit gaming, like stouts, jags and marauders/razors on repeat then yes you would think spybots should be removed but it's forgetting the fact that you also could try to learn how to play properly the game. There was issue with spybots but it seem balance means removing stuff since the balance team was formed

[strange edge]

part of playing the game properly is

1. not supporting your claims
2. being condescending to others
3. blame air

[fickle marsh]

Yeah I dont like being forced to play with a unit that is horrible to micro and that's entire gameplay loop is "make a ball and just send it at your opponents base because they take forever to kill and you'll just win"

[severe wedge]

light tank hp nerf when?

they're like medium-light tanks right now

[fickle marsh]

For real

Thats interesting. I imagine its hard to find a good balance

But hopefully the BP nerf really does make a difference

[severe wedge]

hmm, it wasn't always this way

incisor used to have 690 hp, same as current blitz

[fickle marsh]

When did they last get an HP buff

[severe wedge]

not sure, i think they just got progressively more hp over the years

to make vehicles be a lot tougher than bots, but slower to manoeuvre

[chrome cloud]

Ironic, given how low vision is for units generally. I'm a bit confused why you'd say spybots aren't used for vision though, as they are often used that way, particularly when you either can't afford spam to do the job or spam isn't cutting it for whatever reason. They also have the benefit of consistent vision versus intermittent vision. I can often tell when someone has a spy bot near me when it becomes clear the enemy must have vision on me to be attacking me the way they are. Their ability to stun large units for so long made them overpowered really and often the primary means of stopping some t2 and even t3 pushes. I'm glad to see their EMP ability nerfed. Particularly since when you're the 'slow and tanky' faction and your units can just easily be stunned for days, your advantage is way too easily negated by a single invisible unit and a few backup units to do the killing.

[lost magnet]

8sec stun duration is extreme nerf but probably would have been fine but removing stun ability will change entire gameplay.
The most used t2 lab is already armada veh and the only thing that used to make t2 bot labs viable was the emp bot with well placed detonation, otherwise the whole lab is mostly useless now.
They also removed the only 2 ways to counter tzar/fatboy, so game will just be a race to poop that unit as fast as possible, making coop the only factor to winning the lane

[elfin dagger]

100% agree

[ornate crystal]

Losing spybots that are used for vision is extremely easy due to how squishy they are, and using tick spam or a radar unit it way cheaper.

[silk sparrow]

rip tickspam forever op

[ancient cedar]

My 23 OS ass also thinks that unsneaky pete and the heavy EMP nerf will make Tzar/Fatboy rushes way too strong, and hard to counter.

[quick fulcrum]

It will probably increase coop big t2 units as there is less fear they will get snapped in half by comm or spy

Which MAY be good on the long run as it will show more problematic aspects of coop

[ebon shale]

that is the point

cheap counter to T2 units bad. Especially if its t1 locked

[tropic gust]

theyre just gonna nerf fatboy and tzar making them unplayable

[fickle marsh]

Doesnt the spy bot still stun for 7 seconds and is cost reduced significantly?

I have a feeling it will be a very positive change as other units are so easily countered by spy bots. They'll still be an effective tool I think

[ancient cedar]

The point is to make a different unit way to strong?
I agree that the ghost is way to strong now, but nerfing it into the ground like this will make other units OP.

How about it only stuns heavy unit for a shorter time, like 4s? So a stun into Dgun is possible, but not exactly easy. So a ball of t1 can do significant damage but not kill the unit during the stun duration, unless you use multiple ghost.

Now I imagine, you are either forced into tzar vs tzar, or forced into blind snipers to counter those units. If you outright remove the two most popular counterplays for an already popular unit its going to be too strong.

[ebon shale]

Not sure if way to strong is a good acessment. Now if enemy invests 30k E and 1,6k metal you cannot counter with 130 metal 17ke spybot and free com

And you have to make heavy T2 of your own

[ancient cedar]

I agree the counterplays need to be weaker and less braindead than just easy stun with a spybot.

[quick fulcrum]

Spybot is opportunity unit, never guarantee, as there's also counterplay here in terms of spammy units in front of t3.

[fickle marsh]

It still stuns no? Just for a shorter time

[lost magnet]

there are people that don't even know unit composition, they only have 1 lab that will make only 1 unit, then they complain their unit balls get stunned so they would rather just delete what kill them

[ornate crystal]

No? their cost isn't changed at all, they're merely a bit cheaper when cloaked.

The problem with the new spybot stats, they will only be useful vs early t2 units. But they cost so much and cost so much BP... why shouldn't I just build my own t2 units to stop their early light t2 units? Cuz when I stun them for the measly 7 seconds, assuming the spybot isn't revealed, i still need something to kill them, which no t1 unit can do that fast.

[ornate crystal]

for a much shorter time (20->8 seconds) and also it's emp damage is like less than 10% of the original so the actual targets you can stun with one spybot are t1 units and hounds/sheldons and maybe mausers

they can't even stun units with a larger emp resist like recluse

This is just gonna promote stupid coop t2 tzar/fatboy gameplay

the only reason why I would build arm bot lab over veh lab were spybots and recluse... now it would be just for the recluse

[ebon shale]

i think that this is the intention

To move away Spybots main purpose to intel/AN snipe from a 20s stun on anything

[fickle marsh]

"Their cost isnt changed at all, theyre just cheaper" what?

I think its a good change, they can pretty much nullify most units up to T3 rn which is just stupid OP

And it holds those other units back

[ornate crystal]

Cloak is cheaper

Build cost is the same

[ornate crystal]

Yeah, and it was the only thing holding back stupid commie strats at least a bit... now that a tzar/fatboy don't need to fear a stun or a dgun it's just gonna become so much more viable

[lost magnet]

imagine having to use something like ticks/grunts to find spybot, that not fun gameplay, what's fun is having my coop unit be unstoppable at 6 mins into game. Want to make coop razors, sure thing, now both commander and spybot won't be able to counter it.

[fickle marsh]

Why dont they need to fear a dgun? Sneaky pete nerf?

[fickle marsh]

Alternatively is it really fun to spend 20+ min getting to a giga mech unit only for it to be insta countered by an invisible spybot ?

[final swan]

I think another approach to deal with spybots is reduce the cost, and more importantly the upkeep cost, maybe range & accuracy (pintpoint where the cloaked unit is more precisely) of intrusion countermeasure system.. considering spybot can be afforded very early in the 't2 stage' its counter should be similar.. but 125 E/s feels too expensive when you just get to t2. so maybe reduce some of the nerf on spybots and buff intrusion countermeasure instead?

about the sneaky pete - consider reducing its cost? not sure if its a good idea or not tbh. as it stands right now its somewhere around 2x the cost of its cortex counterpart, and yes it does have slightly larger radius but might not be worth it now that cloak is gone.

personally I don't think the t2 radar buff is big enough.. from 1v1s perspective, just the fact I need to send out a t2 constructor, exposing it to raids just to build the t2 radar already a big discouragement considering they are much more expensive than t1 cons.. ontop of that its still 5? 6? times as expensive and only has about 50% more range, its too rewarding for the opponent when they kill them.
in teams games the issue is that junos are very often already fired all over the map to counter scout spam, again losing 400/11k to a random juno that was gonna land anyway is not ideal when you can just repeatedly place t1 radars, most players can live with the reduced range

[lost magnet]

it's not ez countered if you play properly

[ornate crystal]

Yeah sneaky pete nerf. Now you can just blast away the jammer everytime and it's gg for that lane

[hybrid jasper]

so ur saying ppl wont be able to play pure greed with a commander, rattle and 3 llt now? 🥷

[ornate crystal]

You're supposed to have spam going with those t3 units, and if you can, there's nothing stopping you from building a forward ics, it's rather cheap to build, both BP and metal-wise. You can also judge whether they might have ghosts by the labs you know your opponent has. I only really get my t3 units spybot emped when I misplay badly...

[hybrid jasper]

is that really bad? xD

front t2 lab sell into double sided mex upgrading should NOT be the standard meta as far as i'm concerned

[ornate crystal]

It's definitely preferable to an unstoppable 6min coop tzar/fatboy, because at least the rattle can't go to other lanes, can it,

[hybrid jasper]

thats a commie issue not the needed ghost nerf issue

[ornate crystal]

ghost nerf will promote commie

I'm not even sure if rattle can even be emped now, and if it can, it will be just for 8 seconds

[hybrid jasper]

cool, there needs to be max amount of commie so something can be done about it

pretending it does not exist and having gentlemens agreements is a shit solution

[fickle marsh]

Sure you might have these habits down already but you also arent in the vast majority of the playerbase who are more casual gamers

Regardless if t3 can have spam support to counter spybots there are still scenarios where spybots just shut down big pushes without much effort. I fully support the nerf, they are still useful for shutting down sheldon/hound balls which was the best use case in terms of balance imo

[ornate crystal]

Yeah, but what good is a sheldon ball stunned for 8 seconds? You still need stuff to kill it, and nothing but t2 units will kill it in those 8 seconds...

sure you can at least use the time to get close but it's still too big of a nerf

[fickle marsh]

8s stun is still huge

[ornate crystal]

Not to mention it probably can't stun porc now, which just promotes porc gameplay

[fickle marsh]

It probably cant or definitely cant? Youve tested it?

[tropic gust]

weve seen So many coop metas where the result was just that the unit that was being produced got nerfed, remember hounds being made witwith consul? Considering that hounds arent all that good and that frontliners now give their Metal to make even better units that propably wasnt the right decision

[fickle marsh]

And like youre saying you arent getting your units stunned by spybot anyway so whats the loss to you?

You cant punish newer players as hard with it? Or what?

[hybrid jasper]

I think that if you didnt have any units to kill whatever you stunned around in 8 sec ur unlikely to get them there in 20 sec

[ornate crystal]

I already said that my main problem with it is that it not only makes t2 botlab even less appealing than it currently is, it also makes coop tzars/fatboys so much more viable, combined with the sneaky pete nerf. I hate commie gaming, so obviously I'm upset it's getting promoted. I also rarely use spybots btw since I usually play vehlab... so I'm actually advocating against my Playstyle xd.

I haven't tested whether it can stun t2 porc, but since the new values are just enough to stun hounds/sheldons, I'm gonna make an educated guess that 1 spybot isn't enough to kill t2 porc which all has more BP required and health.

[ornate crystal]

Yeah, but you need more units to deal the damage you can do with fewer units during the 20 seconds

[hybrid jasper]

how many medium tanks does it take to kill a tzar with a surround again?

[ornate crystal]

What's that even supposed to mean...

[tropic gust]

what jind of questikn is that, youre not honna get in range

[hybrid jasper]

maybe not on supreme 🤣

[ornate crystal]

a lot, since good players will for example have a com nearby 🙂 or some other thing. Not to mention you'll lose half before you even get into range. And another thing, tzar costs as much as what, 7 med tanks?

[tropic gust]

incisors and even blitz way better vs tzar

i hahave killed many tzar with blitz

[hybrid jasper]

7 med tanks is just the tzar than there is also the t2 lab cost

[hybrid jasper]

well thjere u go

[tropic gust]

in that case the enemy t1 player didnt do his job tho

[ornate crystal]

yeah, but all of that is spread out across multiple players... while in most teamgames you won't even get help usually because of the randomness of teammates

[hybrid jasper]

thats again...not a tzar issue than

[ornate crystal]

I'm not talking about the tzar issue, I'm talking generally about commie stuff, which just gets promoted by this patch

[hybrid jasper]

I mean it gets promoted the most by being the ideal way to play imo

[fickle marsh]

I mean if you are commieing a tzar at 6 min you are kinda banking on your opponents not having t2

The counter for this of course being the sneaky pete dgun, but this is still possible even without a cloaked sneaky pete

[ornate crystal]

and how if I may ask?

[fickle marsh]

Cloak and dgun

Just like you do anyways XD
You just cant rely on OP invisible jammer

[ornate crystal]

yeah... good luck with a cloaked commander without dgun on open field

[fickle marsh]

You can still make jammers...

[ornate crystal]

which will get one shot instantly

because of the rather superior range of the t2 units

[fickle marsh]

Just have to protect them. Yes they will be a target but you still will have time to get commander in there to dgun or find another counter

[hybrid jasper]

if the tzar is commied u can also afford to lose a shitload of stuff before you kill it and be fine/ahead

[fickle marsh]

Yeah

[ornate crystal]

how will you be far ahead if the commies get their t2 cons and upgrade their mexes while you struggle to kill the tzar and can't go t2 yourself?

[ornate crystal]

And how do you want to protect them from a tzar/fatboy shot?

[hybrid jasper]

how were cor players defending the tzar till now? xD

[fickle marsh]

Other targets

Its not like the tzar is just going to face an empty field with nothing but a jammer and com...

[ornate crystal]

jammer is a #1 priority target

[fickle marsh]

If its tagreting the jammer you now have time to walk your com up

[ornate crystal]

you don't... because the tzar will ride around in circles like a janus and will get away instantly after firing the shot

[hybrid jasper]

just wait for it to invevitably get stuck on a rock and go dgun it lol

[lost magnet]

very funny

you know 1 tick can kill a tzar right

[hybrid jasper]

i will take it back if it turns out to be op but i'm skeptical for now

[fickle marsh]

Yeah the very maneuverable tzar with its 41 speed and snail turn rate will be doing that

[lost magnet]

what's ur ingame username plz?

[ornate crystal]

oh it will, in the hands of a good player. That's why you drive it in circles, to avoid the turn rate. It's exactly the same as using a janus

[fickle marsh]

Janus are siginificantly faster though. Its just not the same

And youre talking like the game should be balanced for like 1% of the playerbase...

[ornate crystal]

They aren't significantly faster, they are faster. What's significant is the aoe and range difference

[hybrid jasper]

com just needs to wait on the edge of a far-away placed jammer and walk towards the tzar, even if it takes a few hits while leaving the jammer it should make it I think

if you get the timing down

[ornate crystal]

90% of the playerbase doesn't know how to coop...

And yes, these balance changes will be felt the most by the top 1%

Most of the playerbase won't even notice the grunt has 20 less range

[lost magnet]

actually it's a lost fight to argue with the clueless coz they are in the balance team gg

[tropic gust]

im usually just ground firing blindly with tzar until my team finally moves up with t1 units

[hidden niche]

whoever nerfed spybot is this guy

deserves raise and head balancer position

[fickle marsh]

Finally some sanity here

Spybot is still very useful just not the most OP in the game anymore

[hybrid jasper]

elaborate xfact pls, why does the spybotnerf make u happy or is it sarcasm

[hidden niche]

spybot was the most giga broken unit in any professional environment, 650 effective metal cost unit countering 5k+ metal on repeat. and there is no counter play to it. only damage control. spam cant cover all, and spy bot can dodge. counter system doesnt reach enemy terrain.

[ebon shale]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[hybrid jasper]

that was my feeling the first time i used one

[ebon shale]

edge of sneaky pete range + com drgun range is more than tzar range

[fickle marsh]

Lol now that most OP player agrees with me my opinion is valid

[ebon shale]

figure it out

[fickle marsh]

Darth_Revan

[ebon shale]

and spybot on antinuke should be brought back with a already made gadget

[hybrid jasper]

oh great I still have to explain to every eco noob that he needs to patrol ticks ;_;

[fickle marsh]

Not to mention the countermeasure system for it would still require walking units up to find it

[ornate crystal]

yeah it was broken but nerfing it to unusefulness isn't the way to go

[ornate crystal]

No disrespect but ofc someone who commies a lot in teamgames will want a spybot nerf

[void cove]

I'm a huge fan of both. All types of team play & don't want a spybot nerf (at least this big anyway) fwiw 🙂

[hybrid jasper]

taking control away from the player for 20sec would be a bad mechanic in any game imo

regardless of balance

[void cove]

Don't get me wrong, EMP is either going to be "very strong" or "mostly worthless" there's very litlte balance space between those two points; since you'll always choose to kill stuff over stun it if you can afford it; so stunning has to be cost effective otherwise its better to build dps.

Was spybot too strong? Probably
Is it now going to be too weak? I expect so

[hybrid jasper]

I can see some strategic uses for it

even just sitting still providing vision of what the enemy is building is incredibly op

I know from playing alot of with a ghost nuke addict

he would sneak it in early, notice he wont be able to get to the AN, than just feed info on what their air and eco were doing

which is probably a stronger play than nuking them xD

this play is now buffed btw

[severe wedge]

i dunno, you still pay 8000k per bot, fixed cost

[void cove]

Yes intel is often underrated. My main concern is lack of ability to deal a skillshot to delay or compete against a sudden charge/rush. Those will basically just game end in most circumstances i can think of now. The spybot nerf substantially weakens perhaps the only hold and comeback mechanic

[fickle marsh]

I dont commie in team games, in fact I almost exclusively play solo game modes. Im happy about this nerf

[hybrid jasper]

estalling even slightly while sneaking in the ghost means it dies, now movement cloak cost is less

[fickle marsh]

And spybot for vision is still so good

[severe wedge]

someone pointed out that people will use stealth tank for the same job instead

[hybrid jasper]

yeah sure

its just convinient because most eco builds go for botlab

another play that will still be possible is emping enemy porc

before a break attempt

[void cove]

I think given the reduction in duration and overall effect, you'll ultimatley see less of that from spybots and people will just hide until emp launcher

that was always possible, and already under-used as a strategy afaict

[fickle marsh]

Isnt it still useful for this though?

It can at least still slow down T3 pushes and stop some T2 pushes

[void cove]

I suspect its now too weak to substantially achieve that result, you already had to pretty much 'be ready to pounce with your DPS units to make a bunch of stunned units actually die before they start up and continue on their merry way, reducing that to 8s or less for larger units means the timing of that attack and the amount of DPS you need to have available is substantially higher - 2 3rds higher infact. So its payoff will just be that much harder to realize

[fickle marsh]

Yeah thats fair. But at the same time if the other team is pushing with t3 and you dont have a good answer other than a giga OP stun unit don't you deserve to lose

[void cove]

Ultimately we'll need to see esp along with all the other changes. I feel this nerf is to much of a change in a single swoop

[void cove]

My gut feeling is we'll see this playout more in late t2 early t3, obviously late t3 is largely immune to this anyway due to levels of t1 spam and sheer qty of units etc

[fickle marsh]

I see what you mean but maybe the change needed to be big in order to see what else needs to change first

Like maybe the spybot alone was holding certain units back from seeing their potential, so now that its nerfed those will see changes too

[void cove]

Yeah, its one of the two major "how to balance" philosophy, since you have to also deal with momentum of meta and player reluctance to try new things following changes; e.g. swing from OP to underpowered, so people get used to fighting without it being strong, then buff it back upto where it should be etc... that's a whole PhD in itself

Also as player average skill creeps up as it will overtime in anygame, stuff like this often goes from "op" to just "strong" as people understand how to avoid using monoballs and driving them directly into obvious spybot traps, so we may also end up nerfing it now, to fix a new influx of players, but once they learn and we have more stable larger average skill lobbies, we realize its more fun when its stronger, if we have less OS delta in a specific game

[fickle marsh]

Yep, so thats why I would rather see the balance team try these big changes out especially while the game is still in alpha and new players are streaming in

After all if balance changes dont happen, even if they are controversial, a game will stagnate and die

[void cove]

Yeah, we do need to keep the ball moving - we all want to see this game the best it can be, that IS the one thing i'm confident we all have in common, the exact method however i feel will always be a long discussion 😄

[fickle marsh]

Lets just hope it avoids another fork 😅

[severe wedge]

more janky tweaks added

now with banisher, parrow, recluse, tremor, but no spybot nerf

[tired hound]

I haven't seen anyone opposed to this. I'm not sure how this works, do I need to make the changes and become part of some larger pr?

[severe wedge]

what do you think the benefit would be?

[tired hound]

It's all already underutilized part of the game that feels very rewarding and I would like to see it more widely used. The problem is that 6 seconds is frankly too difficult to time correctly as units have gotten faster

[severe wedge]

I can think of a few negatives: 1) self-d timers are standardized at 5s, no reason to add another special case and 2) this would disproportionately affect arm because pawn/blitz has to get closer to llts

[tired hound]

I tested the range of the explosion and it's 1/3 the llt range. Still close enough for all units to avoid the blast if they don't approach the tower. Also not all units have 5 second self d timers. Spy boys being the first thing to come to mind

[severe wedge]

yeah I did say "another" special case, I know some exist... but there's nothing in the game to indicate why LLT would be one such over other buildings and units

LLT self-d is currently very powerful vs arm, attacking in a way to mitigate it is quite difficult imo and you give up some damage efficiency

[tired hound]

Can you elaborate? The range of a pawn/blitz is 180 and the LLT self D is ~143. Any fight move command should keep them outside the self D range

[severe wedge]

you don't attack into LLTs with fight command ever though

the optimal attack path is to run past the LLT to maximise flanking damage

and for more efficient raiding in general so you can hit the next thing

[tired hound]

Often times with enough units to kill an LLT it dies long before you get units past it to flank

[severe wedge]

if you have to micro to stay exactly on the edge of range that's a burden

in general I think LLT self-d is already very good vs arm, you just don't see it because people don't play arm in 1v1 so nobody under ~50 os has it in their repertoire

[tired hound]

The difference is smaller than the one between rocket bots and the LLT range, people manage to do that constantly

[severe wedge]

I don't think we need to buff LLT vs arm specifically

[tired hound]

I find it to be a general buff but I understand why you say arm is more impacted

My main goal is to get people to realize it's a thing and use it more often. Currently I just think it's too difficult to use regularly. Moving to 4 seconds takes the skill down to a level I think 30-40s can handle without radically changing overall outcomes of games

Now that you bring it up I would be okay with also increasing the self D range for arm LLTs so that it feels the same to both sides

But then the arm mirror might suffer

[severe wedge]

I feel like it's too strong an ability to buff in general because of the disproportionate damage it can do

like if it's too good and reliable you'll see people do a little dance every time they attack an llt

which I guess some people might like but I'd rather keep the units moving

[tired hound]

I would much rather people take the static seriously than walk by it without caring. It's the only static in the game that can be ignored if you simply have 5+ units

[severe wedge]

yeah because it costs less than 1 blitz

[tired hound]

Also fair 🙂

[severe wedge]

also static feels kinda weak in 1v1 mainly because of the openness of the maps we play

[tired hound]

Yeah I'm trying to avoid the specific map discussions as if you choose to put down an LLT that's on you regardless lol.

It wouldn't make them so oppressive that you start seeing a lone LLT in a field enjoying the flowers 🤣

Also, I am still unsure as to how this change process works in general. Does each suggestion need some kind of vote and then there is some dev who implements all the changes? Does there need to be some # of people that vote for it to make it live?

Because if no one else chimes in its kind of a 50-50 on this one.

[severe wedge]

well it's not a democracy, just a suggestions box

one more thing on the timer consistency, you could argue imo that all the timers should be reduced if the goal is to see more combat self-ds
you'd get op damage with self-d on factory and estorage

[tired hound]

except those units are not designed to be on the front line

and are cost prohibitive enough to deter that behavior

[severe wedge]

I meant for opportunistic self-d during base attacks... though factory is pretty reliable already due to high hp

[tired hound]

Also i woould need to test the range on other units. Why isnt self D range listed anywhere? Thats another thing I would like to see changed

I think many players dont even realize how useful a self D can be since its poorly communicated

[severe wedge]

you can see it in game with space+x on a selected unit

[tired hound]

when did Elon Musk get into BAR? 😛

[scenic heart]

Is this coming out on Saturday 22nd or Sunday 23rd?

[clear pond]

I just dont get the balance change there.
I don't think it will affect spam at all
if they wanted to reduce spam they'd buff juno that actually deals with spam.

[fickle marsh]

Wait wut

So they took out spy bot nerf? 😦

[severe wedge]

no I meant our homebrew tweak

here

[naive hawk]

t2 radar shouldnt be junoed

[fickle marsh]

Why the fuck would you take spybot nerf out of homebrew tweak

[fickle marsh]

YES thank you
Or if it can be junod make it just stun

Juno rework is based as hell its a shame it didnt catch on

[severe wedge]

I didn't take it out, we just didn't put it in 😆 might be it can't be tweakable to begin with

[fickle marsh]

F

[fickle marsh]

Homebrew balance pack should just give incisor +20 range

[severe wedge]

that's the balance we crave....

[fickle marsh]

We must ensure the only viable unit is incisor

Might as well also make it the same buildcost as a tick

[severe wedge]

have you played slow build incisors yet?

[fickle marsh]

No but I imagine its beautiful

I was saying this needed to happen months ago

[signal owl]

is this the new patch thats coming out soon?

[severe wedge]

partial implementation

[fringe tulip]

The emp change would require a change to the explosions table, which is why it's not in the tweakunits.

[scenic breach]

Could buildings like anti-nuke have negative EMP resistance?

[fringe tulip]

Yes but that only affects the damage taken, not the max duration. It would guarantee a single spy bot got the full 8s though if it had a paralyze multiplier set to (E.g.) 10.

[outer fulcrum]

You forgot a zero, should be 200

[void cove]

I'd be okay with it getting a temporary EMP effect like in the og juno rework

[empty lava]

can 1 spybot stun an anti nuke atm?

how many seconds stun do you need to successfully nuke through

[ornate crystal]

it's map dependent

[empty lava]

at a typical backline to backline distance

huh it's gonna be annoying to get your jammer ships juno'd

~300 metal each one

banisher and esp poison arrow buff is nice

maybe poison arrow will be useable as an amphib surprise unit

i do like the spybot becoming more of a recon unit and less a generic stun answer to many things (esp heavy t2 and light t3)

8 seconds is a massive nerf tho, unless you are personally controlling the units to kill the hounds/sheldons they might live

[ebon shale]

think it may also be usefull as a midpoint from bull and tzar just on frontline with its sight buff

as a pawn/grunt/t1 tank annihilator

[empty lava]

it should shrug off spybots easily too

[ebon shale]

Any proper T2 does

Think from popular units, it is fiend, sheldon, jag mauser hound sprinter that still get affected

didn't check core vic, but salas have innate stun resist, and tigers got much more hp

[empty lava]

it's good. tigers are expensive and it's cringe having to eat spybots all day long

[hybrid jasper]

interestingly 5k dmg ghost emp seems like a bit of a cortex buff

the only t2 arm units that can tank it are turtle and fatboy

and i'm not even sure if the turtle can because it has exactly 5k hp

[minor vale]

Units just around the threshold get stunned for a tiny amount of time

[hybrid jasper]

for cor its: sumo, mammoth, tzar, tiger and parrow

[quick fulcrum]

The buff Sumo needed but nobody thought of

[dense narwhal]

Im not sure if 1 Spy should be able deal with Heavier T2 or no

[quick fulcrum]

I dont mind the way patch nerfs it, but will have to be aware how it affects tzar rushes

[fickle marsh]

Definitely not, theyre too cheap for that. Seems to be the guiding philosophy behind the nerf

[topaz whale]

Looks like the devs might decide to implement the spybot duration of 20sec to buildings in general, so they would still be useful against anti nuke and porc. Good if it goes through. https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/pull/4485

[fickle marsh]

This is actually a really great compromise and makes a lot of sense

[quick fulcrum]

Hope stun vs buildings is 20s again. T2 porc is very strong, it should get shut when no ics built

[fickle marsh]

Yeah I dont mind spybots being really strong against static, its just when they can counter units 100× their value that they are unfun

[dense vine]

If you tick/grunt spam in front of your T3, you can detect com in jammer AND spybots, this nerf is way to big and just break a mechanics for low resources gamers at t2 botlab to MAYBE counter early t3 rush/commie..

[fickle marsh]

Lol what if they just walk their spybot around your spam

Needing spam to spot them is a null argument theyre still OP regardless

[dry solar]

That's part of the point, it should not have the amount of power for a lower resource gamer to ez turn the game around (comeback mechanic too strong is just as bad as snowball too strong, but one is more earned), and the counterplay is overstated (XFactor straight up says it doesn't exist, and I'm inclined to believe one of the best gameurs in the gayme).

#1326243940730667160 message

Spam isn't exactly a desirable part of the game either imo. Part of the reason for the T1 changes this patch was to reduce spam.

[dense vine]

#1252350161192222741 message

[dry solar]

Noted. Doesn't change my opinion on the principle of things tho.

[dense vine]

Never said Spybots is not OP rn, but this nerf is not balanced and just will make them useless, it is not how you balance a game

[dry solar]

We'll see about making them useless. You might be right about it being an overnerf, but I can't agree with the reasoning you initially provided.

[dense vine]

The nerf on tick/grunt spam is ok, lets say "tick/grunt wall" now

[fickle marsh]

This has nothing to do with anything lol

The fact is spybots dont have a good counter play, sure theres intrusion counter measure but the area this covers is small and also quite frankly it only giving a red visual indicator is not so useful as a true counter

And saying "BuT jUsT SpAm" is not valid because they can just avoid your units EZ.

And spybots arent gonna be useless from this nerf. I suspect they might get a cost reduction if they dont see enough play but buffing the cloak cost is pretty huge for making spybots more useable early into T2

[dense vine]

"Just avoid your units EZ" => no, just look moveSpeed of respective units

[fickle marsh]

Its not a move speed issue though

If you cant see the spybot move speed doesnt matter

[hidden niche]

tbh spybot still very usable and fun after patch

[dense vine]

Well, let's see the "damage" of the over nerf indeed

[fickle marsh]

Im all for this change, spybot is still very strong for vision

[hidden niche]

instant selfd very op

[fickle marsh]

And cheaper to maintain lots of them
And they still counter early T2
And they got the new attCk command

And you can still slow down early T3 with enough of them

People crying because a 300 metal unit cant infinitely nullify 60k metal in T3 units and structures 💀

[hidden niche]

nothing feels better than get 3 razerback perma stunned and dgunned or killed, because enemy made them for essentially 0 cost in 20 sec

[fickle marsh]

Imagine not being able to use the coolest units in the game because of this

With this nerf so many other units get to shine too finally

[simple island]

Plus I feel like spy bots primary purpose always should have been exactly what the name implies "spy" as in scouting and giving sneaky Los. That's why it's a stealthy and cloak boy.

Maybe armada can get a skuttle alternative in the future with the full power of old spybot but only cloak no stealth just like skuttle.

[gilded grotto]

The only issue with using "enough of them" is the loss of self-immunity to EMP. So you have to spend your limited attention resource to micro a large number of them to insure there is enough of a gap so they don't self stun each other and that you have them close enough together not to lose too much of the emp damage build-up you are applying.

I have a feeling the self-immunity nerf is going to hurt worse for having them be viable against anything bigger than a Bull. Stacking multiple of them, combined with the new auto-detonate attack AND restoring the self-immunity would make them viable but at a significantly increased resource cost from before and still a cap of 8 seconds of that stun vs the 20s from before. Probably worth paying for the self-immunity with a further reduction in damage, if needed. (Assuming the building stun is kept at 20s so we don't have to worry about damage:hp for buildings).

Quick math on the tradeoff here. For an 8 second stun on a Razorback you need at least 3 spybots to hit it, one-after-another so you'd pay at least:
405 M (11% of the Razorback cost)
26.4k E (38% of RB)
52.8k BP (60% of RB)
+attention for microing them

Obviously you'd aim to hit 3 RB in a go, if you can manage it, which would improve the numbers. But this cost is just for a temporary stun. You still have to kill the units.

---

Adding a cooldown for emp damage would be a nice-to-have as well. So once something is stunned, it is immune to stun for at least 1-2x the duration of the stun. That would solve the perma-lock-down case.

(Disclaimer: These have been the musings of a mediocre player)

[topaz whale]

The quick math value just shows why the unit was bonkers before 😂

[fickle marsh]

Why does self immunity matter if they are all self D'd at the same time?

[gilded grotto]

It doesn't work that way, I tested it. At best you can randomly get 2 to selfd together but then they stun all the other spybots which will instantly be killed by surrounding units.

[fickle marsh]

Selecting them at the same time should work...

[topaz whale]

he is talking about this @fickle marsh Dany testing found this weird interaction

[fickle marsh]

Oh, that is weird! Obviously they should detonate at the same time. This seems like something to go in a bug report

[dense narwhal]

Arent Spybots supposed to be Emp-immune

[severe wedge]

not post-patch

[empty lava]

spybots have a place but generally emp leads to situations where that player's micro isn't a factor

it's just pre-spread and screen with bodies or splash aoe

and yeah I think old spybot too punishing against heavy t2 and t3

you made t3 gantry why do you have to be the one dealing with the headaches of constantly sweeping for spybot

[empty lava]

maybe make spybots immune to allied spybot emp?

[wheat kayak]

I tested it with way more spybots, but didn't post those finding.
The short story is spybots EMP each other occasionally, its not 100% guaranteed to happen when you self-d them.

Considering that random-based stuff is getting patched out (e.g. laser buff), this should definitely be fixed to never happen.
As for the how, don't know whats optimal. I'd naively suggest a short term fix by simply reintroducing EMP imunity and work on a proper, long term fix.

The larger issue, IMO, is that if you do an attack command with two adjecent spybots on the same target.
They will, 99% of the time, not detonate at the same time due to being at slightly different positions. The first detonating spybot is therefore almost guaranteed to zap the second one if they aren't spaced outside each others zap range.

[fickle marsh]

Yeah I feel like they need immunity only because of this glitchy behavior

[agile spoke]

Yes this is a good take

Now all the not unit builders and afk gaming guys will have a hard time dealing with superior army value enemy pressuring for map control

So they will need to actually play the game

[hidden niche]

@minor vale after actually testing new patch for first time for real. I am afraid to say that pawn grunt interaction is worse than it was before, in favor of armada. I recommend to revert pawn hp buff immediately as this also impacts other match ups such vs blitzes negatively. pawn stats are just too good right now.

also I think it will get only worse with time. as users grunt proficiency is already at its peak.

[minor vale]

Yeah I suspected as much, but it's out of my hands for now

[agile spoke]

I told you lol

Pawn gaming incoming

[hidden niche]

i remember u saying blitz gaming waa

[agile spoke]

Also

[dry solar]

If the Pawn gets a hotfix it should definitely be touching the HP imo

[quick fulcrum]

Blitz is still hot garbage

[tropic gust]

i dont understand why they are so keen to change bots but so reluctent to do the same with vehicles

i would have understood if they nerfed the incisor in the same way as the grunt but with the grunt i honestly dont understand it

core bots only has the grunt the lab has no other units for anti spam

and adding more buildpower cost to incisor means you need 1 more con or buildturret and your back to having the same old OP incisor

[fickle marsh]

Pawns are already really strong vs every other unit so makes sense

Also they both nerfed grunts and buffed pawns so ofc this makes sense

Maybe instead they should undo grunt range nerf

[dry solar]

Grunt rage nerf is the best targeted change for bringing Pawn and Grunt closer in high level 1v1, which is where the biggest faction pick disparity is. It should be the last thing reverted.

[hidden niche]

I was thinking about maybe buff grunt dps. While keeping other nerfs. Very spicy not sure

[timid vector]

Putting my vote in for increasing dps by increasing damage a lot while lowering fire rate (i.e. increasing firing period) a little, to bring back scout survival rates on engagement (i.e. don't screw with the breakpoints except at ratios of fire rates the scouts would have lived pre-patch).

[hidden niche]

In current state with range nerf and pawn hp buff. Too often grunt and pawn will meet and grunt has no chance to beat the pure stats of pawn. Especially on bigger maps where multiple armies fight each other at same time. Idle grunts essentially get deleted rn

Also pawn was always very strong VS blitz. Kind like a hard counter. And pawn received like same hp for x2. 5 less cost

also there is the interaction where pawn can kite grunts now lmao which is quite questionable needs some extra testing

[timid vector]

Just increase pawn projectile speed. It'll look like a buff but it'll erase that. 😄 (tongue in cheek obvs; that just makes the two units even more similar ._. )

[hidden niche]

Atleast incisor vs pawn is maybe balanced now xd

Blitz vs grunt also not bad

But ye pawn vs grunt and grunt vs incisor is horrible. Blitz VS incisor might be okay on some maps

Quite hard to balance all 4 unit perfectly

Soon legion gonna add additional 8 interactions gg

[timid vector]

At current bot prices the lobber (legion plasma bot) is closer to the pricing of the other two factions' infantry than the goblin (legion infantry) is. Not even sure which interactions would jive with the canonical 'we want to support monocompositions' choice.

[fickle marsh]

Make lobbers able to keep pace w grunts and pawns then plz

[timid vector]

O_O they have 400 range iirc. (implying that the same class of complaints as the grunt vs pawn matchup in monocomps would come up)

[fickle marsh]

Yeah but their plasma doesnt hit shit and is very low DPS anyways

Rn legion has no real fast bots except for the broken centaurs but those arent good for deal w arm

[fickle magnet]

Gl starting cor bots vs cor vehs now btw

[quick fulcrum]

Grunt vs incisor biggest issue maybe, its hard to take down tanks now

Pawns kinds eat through it but grunts just sad

[fickle marsh]

Makes no sense why only grunt got a range nerf

Keep incisors and grunts the same range fr

Was already cancer playing vs incisor then they just nerf grunt vs them completely

This is the only new change I am frustrated by

Incisors + grunts and pawns + blitz are supposed to have the same range !!

[severe wedge]

guess we still have to make our own balance tweaks 😆

[minor vale]

move discussion of the release patch to #1353364944350871632 message

[minor vale]

back in the day grunts used to have longer range 😄

[tropic gust]

pawns actually outrange grunts while retreating cause their projectiles overshoot

armada can now choose between: 1 counter grunts and remain mobile with pawns or 2 counter grunts even more but less mobile with centurions

and core can choose to pound sand

[fickle marsh]

RIP cortex

[upper elk]

someone called a pounder? 😎 🔨

[mild raven]

It seems to me like it would be better to increase pawn range rather then reduce grunt range, as the pawn v grunt matchup is the main issue, and this avoids nerfing grunts in other matchups such as vs incisors, centurions and llts

I don't think a slight increase to pawn range is going to cause major issues with pawn effectiveness (except maybe vs blitz...)

[peak gazelle]

We need like a centurion for cortex

Then we could balance the matchup more closely for grunt

[upper elk]

Isnt pounder the centurian for cortex?

[fickle marsh]

Not really because arm gets janus

A new cor bot would be really cool

[fickle marsh]

What would you make it

It would be cool to try to do something unique like legion's units, maybe a very expensive t1.5 thats like a mini mammoth or something

Make sumo t1 and smol

[upper elk]

smol karg is a good idea too

[strange edge]

what about small fatboy

t1 lob plasma with slowdown like fatboy and tzar but just with t1 damage

[severe wedge]

give it a burst flame weapon

[strange edge]

"enforcer"

[fickle marsh]

Ooh yeah

[scenic breach]

Ticks and Bricks. >_>"

[frigid galleon]

something with a heatray

core needs more heatrays

[fickle marsh]

I think a green laser instead

Or mini missiles like a small karg

[clear pond]

grunts feel bad

make grunts not feel bad

[quick fulcrum]

If anything grunt could use BP decresea to be more ... umm.. pumpable

Its fine not to have cent counterpart imo if you can overrun more

[ebon shale]

Core has like three* heatrays and those are a staple of another faction already

[frigid galleon]

termite also has one it's just you've never seen one cos it's the worst unit in the game

[ebon shale]

oh right, termite

[frigid galleon]

Jugg also I think technically

[ebon shale]

Here, done

Still rather low compared to like 10+ in legion's arsenal

[fringe tulip]

Cataphract laser blaster, but on a mini sumo (the size of a perimeter camera.)

[outer fulcrum]

Buff grunts, they get dismantled by whatever I throw at them now

[fickle marsh]

^^^

[outer fulcrum]

Honestly speaking for real, i can't tell if they shoot or not because they do nothing to enemy units outside of the first few minutes

Like, I'm actually considering rushing a few medium tanks up a mountain as a viable strat against a cor bot player

[next moon]

@minor vale is it time to lock this one up?

[tropic gust]

Does that mean pawns finally get nerfed

[empty lava]

adding stealth to skuttle is like taking the gremlin and going "well hmm armvehicle lacks a tanky frontline option so we will buff gremlin hp by 100%. It's a t2 unit so it definitely should have more hp than a stout."

surely it won't become a broken stealth attack unit, right?

[dense narwhal]

If its revealed by radar then whats the point. U could make Skuttle not broken without stealth

[ornate crystal]

Skuttle is fine as is

[brazen oar]

I feel like skuttle does not have enough damage right now. Cant even one shot a razorback, whats the point. :kappa:

[astral wigeon]

t1 flame thrower. btw who needs centurion as slow and expensive as it is?

[fickle marsh]

I want a t1 flame thrower

Yeah make centurion fast and give em lower range

[tropic gust]

it's really good for rocket bots

cause you don't need to make llts everywhere

centurion + rockos just hard counters plasma bots, pawns, grunts and ticks and centurions are just as fast as thugs

[rose hound]

creates new issues

[fickle marsh]

new fun issues

[severe wedge]

show him the clips 😆

when the 9.9 impulse guns started stunlocking my tanks 🤯

[fickle marsh]

Lmao Ill find them

[tropic gust]

Centurion is fine as is

Just give core one too

Plasma bots are unplayable without mobile antispam and I'm tired of spamming llts everywhere

[dense elk]

Ur commander is a fucking mobile anti spam

[empty lava]

just put grunts beside the thugs and let the thugs tank

spam + plasma bot beats spam

[tropic gust]

Yes but mace + centurion beats thugs + grunt

And rocketeer + centurion beats them even more

People are sleeping on the utility of centurion

[empty lava]

Against centurion u just kite them to hell

And make 1 beamer if you want

[tropic gust]

No the rocketeer will kite you

And the centurion will be repaired

All the centurion needs to do is take damage and prevent close up fights

And if someone looses all their grunts to your centurion you can immediatly send a few ticks causing friendly fire

And centurion and thug actually both have 45 speed

[fickle marsh]

@rose hound their kids will love it

This is the balance we all need (after this I changed impulse from 9.9 > 2)

[astral wigeon]

centurion gets beaten hard by thug and overall much to costly. but seriously, i think pawn now a bit too op maybe and grunts too weak now. somehow units should be in-between of what they were and what they are now.

[tropic gust]

centurion doesn't replace thugs but pawns as support to thugs or rocketeer

[rose hound]

could be ok, I assume your making it more like pounder

[fickle marsh]

more like a super pawn

[fickle marsh]

yes, a slight buff to grunts and slight nerf to pawns is in order

[astral wigeon]

a very costly unit anyway for a role u can fill with pawns anyway. so were is the benefit? also stacking to that kind of group its taken very easy out by enemy plasma bots or even rocket bots. they offer much more for their money. theoretical its good against spam but it sucks at anything else especially for that cost combined with the slow speed. and also cost wise its not worth to build it against pawns etc. u would need a groups of them to work well and then again. who spend so much metal on it. its better invested in sth else.

[astral wigeon]

for the cost of centurion u build plasma bots or rocket bots instead running with grunts into them

[fickle marsh]

https://tenor.com/view/grinch-christmas-evil-smile-grin-gif-10578222353715930774

Did you see our fight night reworks

[strong spear]

Centurions work with rocket bots quite well though.

[tropic gust]

Centurions are worth their money since pawns trade awfully with them

And you can repair them

Pawns and grunts constantly need to be replaced

Centurion + rocket bot works so well that it made armada viable before this patch when grunt had 230 range

[hearty sigil]

What makes centurion good is that they can kill commanders (if u have an insane micro and pay a lot of attention).

[empty lava]

this is sort of skill issue

centurions overpeform in mixed lobbies because people will walk spam incorrectly into them

if you play someone who always dances around your centurions it will be a headache

[tropic gust]

At that point you succeded in making the fight purely about rocketbots wich is the goal

The centurion only prevents leak and takes damage for rocketbots while getting repaired

Pawns cant tank for your rocketbots

If your centurion moves sideways in front of your rocketbots most rockets will miss and fall short in front of your own rocket bots, then you can move forward and fire your own burst of rockets

[frigid rapids]

2 centurions + a commander makes a really mean commander drop

but yeah centurions are great at stopping a pawn run by from killing all your rocket bots

I suppose it's a math sum, did I spend less metal into my 2 centurions than they spent in pawns/grunts. if yes I should win the rocket bot duel

[pulsar lion]

really appreciated the quick patch

there are ALOT of good suggestions and feedback above, but in general - a lot of it has to be tested

I think the game would benefit a lot from more frequent, and smaller balance updates. It doesn't take a lot to decrease something by 1-10%, and nothing is broken enough to warrant 80% nerfs (if it did...why did it take so long to catch?).

[arctic portal]

Hey when will we have a buff towards hovers

[arctic portal]

Ive already known that ever since the patch its ridiculous ever since I used the grunt its been a nightmare it gets demolished by literally everything

I really would like a rebalance to grunts again

[fossil trench]

I still feel cortex been needs printers or a cheap reclaim unit in the game. If you're T2 cortex veh or t1 you've got no tools to control reclaim well.

Having a T1 bot lab as well ends up being a requirement right now.

[fossil trench]

Sumo is still too slow to use in many games I find.

Slow plus short range in current meta is a death trap vs way too many things that can kite them.

[hybrid jasper]

t2 cor veh should have the option to build t1 veh cons until printers are ready

[fossil trench]

Yeah that's not a bad compromise but they still aren't perfect.

I'd just give them the consul with cortex options in the meantime even.

(Though adding the T1 con would be less work I'm sure)

[astral wigeon]

i dont see a problem here. you just have to play cortex a little bit different.

1. first of all rezbot in general are the way to go when u deal with big wreck fields
2. u have always t1 cons that u can use
3. choose the right moment to tech up

[pine mesa]

Lol i havent played bar in like 45 days and Ic ome on to Discord and the conversation is still exactly the same 🤣

Honestly dudes u should consider getting an Ai chat bot to summarise. I wonder what it would say.
Buff Pawn
Nerf Grunt
Cent to Core
Something about shuris
Core Commander wears bellbottoms .
lols

[fossil trench]

If you ate your t1 lab to make T2 lab then no you don't always have access to T1 cons.

Why should core veh need to keep or rebuild their T1 lab to have reclaim options when arm doesn't have to?! That's the whole point.

[dense narwhal]

Yeah cor needs a builder assist for T2 veh lab. Its more consistent that way as other T2 bot/veh labs all get one

[rose hound]

ah but what if you eat your T2 lab and build a t1 lab.

[dense narwhal]

U can assist T2 con with T1 cons but it doesnt really feel appropriate

[crimson rampart]

Ya what ever happen with the Printer unit?

[quick fulcrum]

It being 2 units in a trenchcoat still bamboozles developers to this day

[fossil trench]

This

[strong spear]

its a PRs welcome case

[astral wigeon]

to have assymetric factions for example

i agree that this exact case is a disadvantage to cortex to some degree but (it can be overcome) balancing is not about specific 1v1 mirroring units or access to units but more about the whole faction or a factory (path). and for any kid of wreckfield, rezzer is always the best unit for it. so to get the real advantage u have to preserve some rezzers or build t1 lab again and this counts also for armada.

[astral wigeon]

thats indeed in a lot of cases the best thing to do in general for the first few minutes after the transition.

[gilded grotto]

Is there an GH issue for it or something that outlines what needs to be done?

[strong spear]

I think so but I’m not sure
Basically the printer needs to be one unit instead of two

[gilded grotto]

Got it. Looked at existing issues/PRs. I'm guessing this is the principal issue at work (Build time and unit count discrepancies): https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/pull/2048

Sounds like a fun challenge.

[quick fulcrum]

Printer has a lot of quirks. It can be transported and sucks metal on the fly because conturret isnt technically lifted but attached as seperate unit

And some other quirks

[fringe tulip]

Didn't it spiral into a whole discussion about redefining 'factories' vs 'buildings' with build power?

Or was that the discussion about getting nano turrets to align to the building grid?

[solemn tendon]

Can we just dump the dang thing and give core t2 vehicles an engineering unit already

its like printer debacle year 5 at this point, and core still has no veh engie

why do we want a unit that is going to either break the game or have such a short build range its impractical to use anyway.....

[quick fulcrum]

For printer it would be smart to make a new conturret unit with different defs - smaller BP, make it disabled when flying, and remodel it into a vehicle. Give it movement etc.. voila

[strong spear]

Pull requests welcome

[crimson rampart]

what is a pull request btw?

[empty lava]

it's when you code a new feature or improvement or fix and you are requesting it be added to the main code base

comes from the git term "pull", which is used to get changes

[strong spear]

simply put , its a submission to a repository

[fringe tulip]

When they say "PRs welcome" they mean 'do the work yourself'

[empty lava]

features don't grow on trees

[strong spear]

Other more important things are taking up my time. Such as the Karen’s across the street trying to hit me up.

[true shard]

https://tenor.com/view/wheelchair-gif-19003401

People playing core atm🤣

[fickle marsh]

at least in 1v1 cor is still very strong 👍

Just took players a bit to adjust to the new pawn

[peak gazelle]

i mean just don't play bot 🙂

veh cor play is still very strong

it's still a death sentence to play bot cor vs anything realy the grunt is bad and most map are way too big for grunt to do anything

[empty lava]

need to revert one of: grunt or pawn speed change

maybe grunt +1 speed, pawn -2 speed

[peak gazelle]

also pawn can win vs veh incisor and blitz
but grunt get outright destroy

it's because 1 incisor outrange grunt by 10 range
and that grunt have less hp than pawn
and the damage is realy low compare to what pawn can do

[empty lava]

yeah grunt feels pretty weak even in 8v8

[peak gazelle]

also blitz got hp buff so that make grunt even weaker

still the same old problem
grunt is the only unit to have 3 role
anti spam
frontline unit (raid)
and scout

which are separate for arm
tick scout
centurion anti spam
pawn frontline unit (raid)

[severe wedge]

I don't think grunt is as bad as vedor thinks, but it's 3x as micro intensive as before

[peak gazelle]

they were already micro intensive to get good fight before even if you could kite better
but after the hp buff ? it's just terrible to use

the problem were the lack of hp on the armada unit they died before you could fight the grunt but now is that still the case

[severe wedge]

yeah if feels bad when you inevitably lose some by running into pawn... but you can still oppress with them on maps like titan duel, crystallized plains

[peak gazelle]

my biggest worry is not the pawn grunt matchup

it's the veh grunt matchup

[severe wedge]

yeah incisor needs nerf :o

then undo blitz buff a bit?

[peak gazelle]

https://tenor.com/view/are-you-serious-highfive-are-you-serious-gif-5916191

[severe wedge]

I don't like these tanky light tanks

[peak gazelle]

remember pawn can catchup incisor

[quick fulcrum]

Instead of changing 4 units, just nerf pawn

[severe wedge]

☝️

[fickle marsh]

Not even though, on the FW and BFN may map pool there are many maps where grunts are strong

[fickle marsh]

Me neither, immortal incisors are no fun

Why not make incisor range equal to grunt range anyways, doesnt make sense~!

[hybrid bluff]

I would be interested in testing the matchup of grants against light tanks for the core

choose universal map- titan duel

I don't have the feeling that there is an imbalance among them

[severe wedge]

hmm, that's a good map for grunts because of high wind speed and smaller size

but I was thinking on bigger maps it hurts to have no scout and only 81 speed grunt now that the trading is worse... very hard to exert pressure on the opposite side of the map

[minor vale]

There's basically no hills and no reclaim on titanduel, so there's maps a lot better for grunts than that still

[hybrid bluff]

I don't want to be misunderstood, but opening through grants will allow you to open through a macro-oriented start, which gives an advantage in general + it is not necessary to always attack, you can force the enemy to invest in defense or rebuild the army, while you are reaching a stronger economy and production, the grant is capable of this, I don't know what else to say here, returning to the stage of the game, we build one unit and win, a questionable decision

in that case tundra is probably the most optimal map for testing, anyone interested can play a series of games

[severe wedge]

yeah I suspect grunt is good against blitz still
grunt-incisor is the problematic matchup once it reaches a certain point, but then again you can try incisor transition there

[hearty sigil]

Its interesting that it looks like that the "whole" 1v1 balance just depends on a single unit (if you play armada or cortex). I don't know that much about 1v1, but isn't the real problem that the whole balance depends on 1 unit per faction? Shouldn't there be multiple good ways to play 1v1 early game?

Whenever I watched 1v1 replays, most of the time I just see people spamming raiding units. It looks very boring to me. Especially if I compare it to an other RTS like starcraft 2.

[empty lava]

gradually they transition into tanks for more power density later

you can make multiple front 1v1 maps but that are more chokey

but most are wide open so indeed it becomes raider dominanted

bar is sometimes about the optmizing 1000 small efficiencies rather than many viable unit comps (depends)

[hidden niche]

The current balance team is very unknowledged and without passion. I'm pretty sure any top player could with the help of test servers create almost perfect balance between 4 labs and fix other balance issues

[severe wedge]

it's a fundamental flaw in the design kinda, that the fast units also have top tier fighting power

in team games it's hidden because the commander keeps them in check with dgun and llt

[hidden niche]

Pawn completely obliterates blitz, incisor completely dominates grunt, pawn crushes grunt severely. Pawn and incisor is still pawn favored but atleast this balance is only bad and not worse. Idk why there is literally 0 reaction 0 work on it being fixed. It's so obvious and fixable and/or improvable in just couple hours work. But no one cares about the game for some reason. It's quite strange that the game stays in this rediculous stage for years already but definetely worsened by a lot with pawn changes

And obviously this is just the tip of the iceberg. Rezbot and llt need rebalancing. In general non raider unit need buff too. And in t2 there is so many bad units. Not situational but bad that can be fixed also just in such a small timely matter. One could massively improve game balance in just 1 hour. Couple days to make it perfect

[severe wedge]

to be honest we don't even need test servers for this, we can change most stats with tweakunits

the problem is nobody actually wants to play a bunch games to test changes that will probably never be implemented 😔

[severe wedge]

what would you change with LLT?

[hidden niche]

U just go in sandbox with changes and make sure that grunt incisor pawn blitz trade evenly in realistic numbers with normal micro

5 pawn kill 4 blitz? Hmm something must be wrong

[severe wedge]

yeah but even so getting that through past balance team is the hard part

[hidden niche]

Llt needs to be better. I would under current balance if nothing else changes (which it should tho) start with 25% dps buff and see how it performs in test environment

[severe wedge]

kuchy put forward buildtime cost reduction which I think I agree with

because the real cost of LLT is it slows down your mexes, it's 80 metal but costs more bp than incisor

[hidden niche]

Well either u let it build slow but be strong or build fast and be weak like now

I like dps buff because that buffs llt VS small raids and when u have army there

While BP reduction is good 1 llt just doesn't do anything rn. And building multiple is more bp anyway

[severe wedge]

also there's the thing of how flanking works... 1 llt is much weaker than 2 llt

[hidden niche]

True

[severe wedge]

so maybe we could reduce cost enough to make 2 llt more viable

[hidden niche]

We don't want llt spam to be a thing because then llt explosion damage and their flanking damage will scale hard

There is many ways to fix that make game better

Game doesn't get worse

We could give any 20% buff. BP, HP. Dps, cost. And game would be better

Hound could get 15% more aoe and game be better

Starlight could be - 15% hp and game be better

Jaguar - 10% range game be better

Salamander 10% faster reload and game better once again

Tremor +10% aoe edge and game be better

Karganeth +10% hp and once again game better

Demon +15% hp you know it

Behemoth +25% metal cost op

Hornet +20% hp boom

Stiletto - 30% energy cost nice

T2 trans with commander - 30% speed waa

Dam buster +20% aoe oh ye

Seaplane air con - 30% e

Hover tank medtanks +10%hp

Halberd +50 range

Flag ship +30% metal and energy cost

Anti air ship +20% dps

[empty lava]

plz make hound a roaming unit not a millionth dumbfire plasma

[hidden niche]

If dumpfire bullet have huge aoe it becomes fun gaming

Not too huge ofc 😄

Core frigate +10% metal cost

OK ima stop

But game so easy improvable just need to do it

[true shard]

@hidden niche i disagree about the starlight. I think its overall to good in what it does

[empty lava]

halberd +50 range would be low key op

i would make the starlight have +5% burst -10% fire rate or something

it's a bit too good at killing blitz/pawn for an anti t3 unit

[hidden niche]

Well I nerf starlight 15%hp so it dies to rushes and chain more

[empty lava]

the reason why starlight level up so fast is because it's dps is very good for it's cost

if the unit is less a generalist then you won't always want them earlier

[hidden niche]

Halberd 50 range would make it fun to use it's still expensive and slow af

[empty lava]

it would be a mostly better sumo

which is fine but kinda low key op on t1

[true shard]

Hmm donno I think its Hard to deal with starlights in a defensive posture

[hidden niche]

Sumo still way better

In all but range

[true shard]

Like the -15%HP can make them more fragile but if you rush it now then it will die

[hidden niche]

It's a trade off so one more unique unit

[empty lava]

raw stats but 350 vs 275 range and 45 vs 38 speed

i've tried sumo dropping and it's honestly not really any better than the salamadner even if it drops int heir base

because mobility lets you shotgun when practical, and range assists in getting better laser % dmg

[hidden niche]

Well I don't want to get too much in detail about all units point is just u can improve game state quite easily off the bat even without testing for a lot of things. Ofc u should still test just saying

[silk sparrow]

what a troll take jag op

Also yes halberd should have a bit longer range that would be nice

[hybrid jasper]

I agree with all the xfact changes 🥷

make the man chief or something xD

[peak gazelle]

Fixing t1 should bé first then T2 should be looked

Also i find Starlight being quite annoying to deal with depending on map since the only answer is spam

Unless im missing something

But anyway the main problem currently for me at least is cortex bot lab viability that is just bad

It s either completly useless or way too op

Sheldon come into mind

Arbiter too

Good unit in team game
Outright useless in 1vs1

Only unit to do is friend sumo and mammouth maybe commando for the meme

I realy want Sheldon and arbiter being différent than veh counterpart

Maybe make arbiter like a sniper but missile so lot of range less dps and as for Sheldon make them a Frontline unit like a hound less range faster fire rate less dps?

Commando add heavy mine or cost réduction in e and métal by 10%?

I realy like commando at least the design maybe it could be repurpose?

As a main battle unit ?

[hidden niche]

Well ye commando needs emp resist and way better stats. I don't know commando stats on the top of my hat. But maybe give like double BP. Double hp and double dps.

Sounds extreme but it's stats are super poop rn.

Obviously even smaller steps is already way better than what we have

[lost magnet]

There is no way you can balance RTS game without playing it good enough to understand it properly
Current balance is done by people not even playing it, It's just that simple
Playing a game don't mean you can balance it either but it's the first step

[hearty sigil]

Would 1v1 need a different balancing than 8v8?

It would be interesting to see tweaks from really good players that balance the game.

[hearty sigil]

Also you have an air player with shurikens which makes most of the raids pointless.

[hearty sigil]

Is starlight actually that good if it gets a 15% hp nerf? It chain explodes and just keeping 5 starlights constantly shooting needs like a whole fusion.

[empty lava]

devs and a fair bit of players would prefer the game to be 99-100% the same game between modes

that's a last resort

although I can understand them using tweaks in 1v1 for testing, or if the current balance is so bad they need to mantain their scene

[quick fulcrum]

Very good patch ideas by @hidden niche , i agree with them all actually

Good insight

He forgot about termite but lets be honest, who even knows termite is a buildable unit

[hidden niche]

I forgot core bot lab tho this list isn't like fully complete I was simply doing a short overview

[empty lava]

salamander change is fine IF it is removed from the t1.5 lab

replace it with the old alligator and balance seperately (old alligator wasn't even bad)

also might want to reduce it's burst dmg if it gets 10% fire rate, possibly
a straight 10% dps increase on a non-garbage unit is a lot

[hidden niche]

I think I mentioned 10% fire rate. It's so it's better vs spam

[empty lava]

yeah

[quick fulcrum]

I think tremor is good enough though. Works great on glitters and a better one would break the most played map

[empty lava]

you def feel that its very expensive e wise and it's spam killing is merely serviceable

[hidden niche]

Tremor is a very dangerous unit to buff. Because range is always king

[empty lava]

tremor is niche but useable atm
i think it's alright

[hidden niche]

Last I checked the splash was very horrible tho

[empty lava]

it's seldom the best option but can be strong vs sheldon/sniper

they buffed the aoe after wrecking the edge effectiveness

[quick fulcrum]

Voncomet is the tremor king currently on glitt and they def have a good spot there

[empty lava]

probably they were trying to make it better vs structures
since buildings have big hitbox

[quick fulcrum]

Gotta use 3 together to clean lanes extremely well

[hidden niche]

15% edge just meh for inaccurate unit

[empty lava]

yes. it was a massive nerf

#1332064873005322272 message

old explanation for why edge effectiveness nerf translates to a significant effective dps nerf

[quick fulcrum]

They got dps buffed tho through raw dmg number

[empty lava]

yeah so it's now usable again

[peak gazelle]

Tremor is niche but its a unique unit with a purpose

Aurélia come in mind with how oppressive it can be

Thing is

We have to take into account the legion faction that is almost finish

Legion has a lot of unique mecanic or unit
Mine bomber napalm suicide plane anti nuke geo etc

And then you look at cor and armada and suddenly it feel weird

Cor has an identify but their unit are sometimes just copy paste
Ambassador and arbiter
Quaker and Sheldon

Same role for 2 lab

A full rework of the bot T2 lab is needed

[elfin dagger]

ya I generally agree w/ X's suggestions as well. The thing about it is there's a lot of changes. I'd hope we could move in the direction of fixing them. Like implement a few per month even. Sure, that's not as fast as anyone would like. However, they are small changes that over time we can see real balance testing happen as well as forward movement

[sturdy quest]

that's impossible without completely removing all teamwork possibilities, bar 1v1 will always be a completely seperate game otherwise imo

[sturdy quest]

a sniper missile launcher... like a banisher?

[outer fulcrum]

Why should the flag be 24k metal now? That seems a bit extreme

I think hornets tweak to lock it behind the t3 lab is better

[hybrid stag]

It is that oppressive. Once its made its really the central point of that fleet. The tweak is good but there are gameplay bugs with it still if in too shallow waters I believe. (Unless I am mixing that up with the submarine underground bug)

[outer fulcrum]

24k metal on a fusion economy is pretty insane if you ask me

[hybrid stag]

Thats the value of 6 standard fusions. Or 3 advanced fusions.

[simple island]

This is really spicy for halberd rushes since it allows them to outrange coms.

I think the unit cost justifies it but being in a t1 lab makes it kinda iffy imo.

[peak gazelle]

Forgot about that lol damn banisher

[arctic portal]

Agreed

[empty lava]

flag should honestly be split into a sea fighting unit and a lower range lrpc shit

having a one size fits all unit that (mostly) wins sea and is the primary late game bombardment unit
makes the unit comp samey every game

[arctic portal]

hasnt it already been sent to a t3 lab with the option to enable and disable it

[empty lava]

arm t2 cruiser and battleship can be buffed so they aren't embarrassing

[arctic portal]

but we always knew that the flagship was the real issue and not the lab cost itself the thing can literally be in the sea and demolish bases idk how it's fair main reason why I moved to glitters to begin with

[empty lava]

that's a tweak. t3 flagship is better but could be still improved

[simple island]

We already have lrpc ships in extra units that could be used for the lrpc ship.

[arctic portal]

It's literally the main reason with supreme rush the flag or hydra and win game nothing that stops that thing and if you lose sea well gg good luck retriving it

[elfin dagger]

b/c the unit is broken. X forgot to add increasing its BP cost by 100% too

[outer fulcrum]

Omg that's even more bad, that's makes it impossible for it to come out on a sea economy during a battle

[elfin dagger]

not to hijack this thread, but it should not be able to be built as easy as it is today. That is undesirable and broken. see: https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1356080373582401687

[steep stag]

sea need a ground up redesign honestly, you wont fix it by adjusting random number for sure. stuff like moving flagship to tier3 might help, but its just a short term bandaid

in particular, introducing more weapon types (like torpedoes / deep water torpedoes), altering how anti submarine stuff works and setting roles for ships more properly could fix a lot imo

[ocean bluff]

I believe in TA, Dominators (OG Arbiters) had tracking missiles but they still had to go up and then down again, so the damage was very slow and bursty. So that's definitely something you can do. Morties were also more like the hounds of today, and Fidos only had gauss mode but did a lot more damage.

[ocean bluff]

god but if only. This and halberd +50 range. Hovertanks just can't do anything. Expensive af and still worse than medium tanks in literally every way. No maneuverability at all and still weak. They're so bad. Metal donations even with +10% hp. 99.9% of the time, going hovers at all is a throw, but at least goons are occasionally op.

[peak gazelle]

I dont remember them having a tracking at all and i played ta

[ocean bluff]

Maybe I'm wrong then

[quartz laurel]

sheldon - removed from the game, game be better

[minor vale]

No, rather make it better for area denial while keeping damage vs single target low

[empty lava]

The dmg was increased while edge effectiveness was reduced?

tremor was really slow at killing porc so getting slightly better isn't a problem?

I'm not fussed the unit seems reasonable atm

[minor vale]

The edgeeffectiveness nerf was earlier

[empty lava]

Yeah now it got more aoe and dmg

So it's probably a net slight plus

[minor vale]

But with wider spread, so singletarget dmg wasn't increased as much as the raw stats would suggest

[empty lava]

I see

I actually prefer the wider spread in a way

For it's typical use of anti sheldon sniper

[minor vale]

Yes makes it more different compared to other artillery

[fickle marsh]

Xfactorlive on the BLT when

We need ur insight its always very useful

I do wish we saw more small unit tweaks just to single stats